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cover of episode “Am I My Ancestors’ Wildest Dreams When Watching Bravo?” | Guilty Pleasures

“Am I My Ancestors’ Wildest Dreams When Watching Bravo?” | Guilty Pleasures

2024/6/6
logo of podcast More Better with Stephanie & Melissa

More Better with Stephanie & Melissa

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Melissa Fumero
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Stephanie Beatriz
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Melissa Fumero:为了孩子的健康成长,她正在努力调整孩子观看电视节目的内容,并反思自己对“负罪感快乐”的看法。她认为自己对“负罪感快乐”的内疚感更多的是源于自我施加的压力和羞耻感,而不是来自外界的评判。她目前正处于一个比较低落的阶段,只做最基本的事情,并且不为此而责备自己。她认为在生活中遇到困难时,‘负罪感快乐’可以提供多巴胺的刺激,帮助人们度过难关。她会因为觉得自己没有足够努力工作而感到内疚,从而无法享受自己的“负罪感快乐”。她认为,给自己放假休息也是需要被“赚取”的,这是一种高成就者的想法。她认为自己对“负罪感快乐”的内疚感可能源于父母的影响,以及她自身对成功的渴望。作为移民子女,他们会将父母的奋斗和牺牲内化,并因此给自己施加更大的压力。她认为享受‘负罪感快乐’的关键在于不要在意别人的看法,并适度进行自我调节。休息是不需要被‘赚取’的,而是理所应当的。 Stephanie Beatriz:她认为“负罪感快乐”指的是那些你很喜欢但认为别人会因此看不起你,或者你会因此感到羞愧的事情,例如色情小说、不健康的食品、真人秀节目、睡懒觉、过度刷手机、八卦和购物等。她沉迷于Bravo电视台的真人秀节目,特别是《比弗利娇妻》系列和《比弗利山庄》系列,并从中获得乐趣和放松。她认为观看真人秀节目是一种放松和娱乐的方式,可以让她暂时忘却生活的压力。她曾因为在与英国演员的谈话中提到自己喜欢看真人秀节目而感到尴尬,这让她意识到人们会对观看这类节目的人进行评判。她认为人们对真人秀节目的评判是生活中的一部分,而她喜欢看真人秀节目的一部分原因也是因为她可以对节目中的角色进行评判。她将“负罪感快乐”比作在河中挣扎求生的人抓住的木头,虽然它看起来像垃圾,但它能帮助你活下去,直到你看到岸边。她认为“负罪感快乐”中的一部分乐趣在于违反规则的快感,例如明知不应该购物却还是忍不住浏览购物网站。她认为八卦的乐趣之一在于其禁忌感,以及在听到秘密时的兴奋感。她认为恶意中伤他人与八卦不同,前者不会带来快乐感。她建议不要将“负罪感快乐”称为“负罪感快乐”,这样可以减轻心理压力。她认为不必向所有认识的人透露自己的“负罪感快乐”。她认为对真人秀节目的喜爱与智力水平无关。她认为克服对“负罪感快乐”的内疚感需要自我宽容和接纳。她认为可以有选择地向他人分享自己的“负罪感快乐”。

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Stephanie and Melissa discuss their personal experiences with guilty pleasures, exploring how they feel about these indulgences and the guilt and shame they often associate with them.

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Welcome to More Better, a podcast where we stop pretending to have it all together and embrace the journey of becoming a little more better every day. Or at least trying to. I'm Melissa Fumero. And I'm Stephanie Beatriz. Welcome back, y'all.

Wow, you sound really psyched. I had a lot of coffee today. I love it. I love it so much. I'm having my third one as well. Yay! How are you? I'm good. Really? Yeah, I think so. Audience, you can't see Melissa's face, but she's fully grimacing.

How are you? Have you done anything lately that's like a little more better since we're talking about more better? I tell you what. So we are attempting to transition the child, our child from whatever kinds of TV. We've been doing, these are child appropriate movies. This is child appropriate shows. But like it's clearly having an effect on her being like, fuck yeah.

You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. So now we're like, all right, that's it. It's just Mr. Rogers from 1981 through 1991. And that's it, bro. Like, and if you don't want that, you can't watch TV. So I feel like it's really hard to do because it's really easy to want to sit her in front of a screen and like get stuff done. Yeah. But also...

But also, I feel kind of positive about it because that's what I had. A lot of the TV that I watched when I was a kid was low-stem. That's what they're calling it these days, low-stem. That's what the TikTok's calling it. Anyway, what about you? What have you done that's more better? You know, honestly, I feel like I'm in a little bit of like more worse phase currently at the moment. Ah!

And just kind of, yeah, treading water a little bit. I've just been really busy, which I'm very, very grateful. Grateful to be busy. Grateful for the work after last year. You are going to get some of this in this podcast. It is going to be a surprise.

Forcing positivity on ourselves. Yeah. But yeah, it's just the last couple weeks have been a lot. So I'm just doing the bare minimum and not judging myself for it and just being like, this is good enough. For right now, this is good enough. I love it. Okay. So today, what we wanted to talk about was something that I think

a lot of us think about, deal with, ignore, pretend we don't have, which is our guilty pleasures. And by guilty pleasures, I mean like

something you really like but you think other people are gonna look down on you for liking or you know something people are gonna judge you for stuff like you know your smut books and your food that has um what is that chemical that you're always like melissa that chemical that you're like oh that has um blah blah blah in it i wouldn't eat that if i were you

Do you remember that? Oh, that I say? Yeah. I don't know. You would say that to me on set sometimes about my starburst addiction. Oh. You'd be like, that's plastic and it has blah, blah in it. And I was like, I don't care with my mouth full of it. Stuff like reality TV, sleeping in, scrolling, scrolling so much that you get a cramp in your finger. Gossip. For those of you that don't speak Spanish.

Shopping. Boopity-boo. Being lazy. Because, like, in general, we feel, I mean, I don't know how you, how do you feel, Melissa, about these things that I'm talking about, about guilty pleasures? Like, do you feel guilty for any of these pleasures? Do you even have any of these? I remember, remember how I texted you a few weeks ago and I was like, I don't know if I have any guilty pleasures. And then you were like, gossip. And I was like, fuck you. No.

And then you were like, gossip? And I was like, oh yeah, that one. Oh yeah, gossip. Yeah, you do like to gossip a little bit. I think that I realized in thinking about this topic that I definitely do have guilty pleasures, but I don't think so much about what other – it's more like the guilt I put on myself and the shame I put on myself. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. So this is what I'm interested in in today's discussion is like –

Is the more better getting rid of these things or is the more better being like accepting of these things to a place of like, I don't feel guilty about them? I don't know. I don't know the answer to that, but I'm interested in what we discuss.

In the disgush. In the disgush. So wait, what are your, let's say, some of your guilty pleasures that you enjoy, Stephanie? I have so many. I know you do. I love your guilty pleasures. First of all, I am a deep devotee to the Bravo universe. I enjoy all of the Real Housewives franchises.

I love the characters. I love the women. I love the set design is absolutely ridiculous. I love all of Vanderpump. I love all of Vanderpump Rules.

I just love, I love it. I love it. I love reality TV, but particularly the Real Housewives and the Vanderpump Rules cast. I just, I mean, it's like, I don't have to do anything. I can just like sit on my couch and watch and I just get swept away in like the glamour and the absolute glamour.

ridiculousness of these people's arguments and like the drama and the super real feelings. I just love it so much. I love it. Yeah. Do you feel like that's a guilty pleasure because you feel like people look down on those shows or like what? But I feel like so many people love those shows. No, I mean like...

They're so popular. They're hugely popular. They are hugely popular. But there is also, you know, we work in an industry, an entertainment industry that can be very, very like, well, what's your favorite movie? What's your favorite, you know, what's your favorite show that you've recently watched? And it better have some kind of Emmy nominee or, you know what I mean? Like, and all that stuff is great. And it is, but sometimes you just want to, I mean, for me, it's like,

life is hard and you just want to have a good time. You know, you just want to be screaming at your TV about, you know, stuff that I have no business talking about. You know, Dorit's, oh my God, Dorit is just like dress over dress. Those of you who watch it, you will know what I'm talking about. It's like Dorit, you're just like overdressing to the nines. We don't need it. Erica Jane, what are you doing with yourself? You

So I remember going to a con one time with you. Actually, we were there at the same time for the same show. And I was having a conversation with these fancy Brits, these Brit actors that were so lovely. So lovely. They were fans of the show. They were really just charming. They were like, you know, what do you watch? And I was like, oh, my God. And then I did my bad British accent. I was like, I absolutely love La Violin. I watch it all the time. Oh!

And they looked at me like I was freaking, like I had a horrible disease that they were going to catch if they were in the same room. The reality TV disease of loving it so much. But I mean, I felt so dumb because, you know, I didn't say, I don't even know what I would have said at the time. Yeah, something highbrow. It was very, to their minds, lowbrow. And it was really embarrassing because like after that, I could tell that they just like didn't,

They didn't want to like look. They were like not in the conversation ended very quickly. Let me just say that. Well, first of all, I think that's kind of shitty of them just to say. I mean, but people do it. People judge. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Part of Marshall of being alive. That's why I like reality TV because I judge them.

You know, it is a guilt. That's part of the guilty pleasure. Honestly, it's a part of partially like being so separated from these people and like screaming at your TV about them. And then, you know, you just get to walk away and like,

you know, have your little nightcap and go to bed. Right. It's part of the fun. I mean, I think, I don't know. Also like the access to these crazy lives that these people have where they're just like jet setting all around the world and then are like mad because one of them didn't invite the other one on their trip to Rome. Yeah.

I mean, it's so out of touch. It's crazy. It's so crazy. But I mean, I've never been able personally to get into reality TV because for some reason. Oh, you're better than me. Oh, you're better than me. No, not even. No, not even. I have watched. No, and I do like, I get it. I get it. For some reason, for me, it stresses me out. I can't like relax and enjoy it.

I just get like stressed out watching it. It's so funny. And I think that's like my own issue. I don't know what that is. I might as well be meditating when I'm watching that shit, man. That's amazing to me. Cloud nine. Yeah. But I think that that's to have that like kind of escapism is good. I mean, that's why we can do entertainment. It just means something differently for like

Each of us. You know what I mean? Yeah. And why are we judging like how people like unplug and disconnect? I mean, well, there's a lot to be said about like we could get into all the stuff about.

I mean, you're not missing work because you need to watch, you know. You don't know. You don't know. I mean, I have certainly had days where I just can't. And I think everybody has those days where they just can't. And they're like, please, everybody in my life, leave me alone and let me do this thing that I know isn't really great for me, you know? But it's just... But I need it. Yeah. I remember reading this thing one time in...

I'll try to remember the book, but it was actually a book about eating disorders. And she talked about how she had this metaphor where like at one time you were in the river and you were going to drown in the river. And so you had to grab onto a log and it kept you alive. It kept you alive. The log was keeping you alive and you had to hold onto that log. But now the shore is coming. You can see the shore, but the only way you can get to the shore is if you let go of the log. Oh,

I didn't write it. Ooh, that's a good one. Sometimes the guilty pleasure is the log. Sometimes the guilty pleasure is the log. Which makes sense because a log looks like a turd. And I find, do you find that when life is at its craziest or we're struggling in any sort of way that like there's an uptick in like guilty pleasures? 100%. Right? 100%.

100% because you're just grasping onto anything, the log turd, to get you through. And it's like looking for those, what is it, like hits of dopamine? Like, you know, things to just like raise your level a little. Yeah. And it's, you know. Yeah.

We would love to be more disciplined and like do the whatever, eat healthy and move our body and whatever, all those things that, but sometimes it's just fricking indulging in your guilty pleasure. And like, you're just, it's a little more passive and like, it just, it's yeah, it's holding onto that log till we can see the shore. I love that. The turd log. The turd log.

♪♪

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Why do you think, I mean, for me, I know why I feel guilt about that, right? Because I feel judged by people that have, I'm assuming people would say that they have better taste than me when they talk about their likes about TV. And I'm like, bravo. I mean, you just did it to me. You just were like, yeah, that's true. I was like, don't judge me.

Because I do feel embarrassed. And part of me is like, oh, I should be spending this time. Well, that's the thing, right? Like your brain goes, I should be spending this time doing something more productive. I should be watching the Criterion channel. I should be going through all of Scorsese's films from the beginning to the end and just watching the performances and seeing how I could be better, you know?

But I can't. Yeah. I find a big one for me too is like earning my guilty pleasures. That's something I do to myself. Like, oh, I haven't, you know, been busy enough or productive enough or like worked hard enough to like earn something.

you know, this time of just indulging or I know it's not like terrible. That's terrible. You better not do that to yourself. I literally just caught myself doing it today because I've been on this kind of week plus long of nonstop, super long hours, late nights, flights, craziness. And I have Wednesday off.

And I was like, oh, my God, I'll do a little bit of work in the morning and then I think I'm just going to be lazy and it's okay because I've earned it. Like, it was literally a thing I thought to myself. And it was like, no, I can also just, like, take the day off. I can also just, like, take a few hours to myself to do, like, whatever the fuck I want. Yeah. That's a very mom thing.

put a thing on it to do. Yeah. I know. It's a very, well, I'll say this. It's a very mom thing to do. It's a very high achiever thing to do. Yeah. Like, when you check both of those boxes, then...

I mean, is that usually your experience with guilty pleasure that you find yourself having to justify or like having to earn it? Oh, yeah. Earn it. I think that's the big one for me is like earn it. Like yours is – it's a little bit of escapism, but you're – yeah. No, but like you're thinking about how other people think of it. Mine feels more like I'm like, did I earn it? What can I do to justify like this purchase or this thing, you know, or like –

this time out with my friend, well, that I've gotten a little better with. But yeah, it's just like, have I worked hard enough to earn this break or give myself this stop? Because I think a lot of my guilty pleasures also are being lazy, sleeping in, those kind of really... Because I'm always seem to be like, go, go, go, go, go. So I kind of define my guilty pleasure as like,

Being really passive. But then it's also like, maybe I'm just fucking resting and maybe it's okay to just fucking rest. Maybe I'm just resting. No, you can't rest. You must achieve. Oh, it's so hard. Like, right? It's so hard. Ugh. It's not helping. Why is it though? Is it like you think someone's going to catch you being lazy? You're going to catch yourself being lazy? I'm going to catch myself being lazy. Or yeah, someone else is going to be like,

judging me for it, but like who? I don't know who. Where did it start? Did you have, did your parents, were your parents like, why are you sitting there? Yeah, I think it probably is. My mom is like a little, I call her like the little energizer bunny. Like she never stops. Even though she also like, but she like enjoyed her stories and like her, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, she's just always busy, busy, busy. And my dad worked

Pretty long days. I don't know. I think it's also just me and maybe this job and like personality. Yeah. Personality. Yeah. I'm a strong believer in like nature and nurture. Like I think both combine to make us who we are. So like I feel like a lot of immigrant parents, both of us have parents that are immigrants, like work really hard, work really hard. And then when they see you, you know, maybe not working as hard, it's like broke.

Yeah. I think we all do. I can't imagine my dad being like, hey, bro. Hey, bro. But I can imagine him being like, why? What are you doing? You need to finish your homework. What are you doing? You need to do this. And also both of us grew up and dance and there's a lot of like, why are you sitting there? You should be warming up. Why are you doing this? You should be doing this.

Like a lot of discipline, a lot of, yeah, I think definitely there was a big emphasis on working hard, but I think also you nailed it when you were like children of immigrants. I think we also tend to internalize like,

our parents struggle and everything they went through and making it worth it. Right? Like, I've been going into the arts at a certain point when I was a young adult and, like, having the realization of, like, oh, my God, this must be so fucking scary for my immigrant parents that, like, I'm like, I want to be an actor. I know. Yeah.

They're just sweating. They're just, yeah. Of like... Taking out loans, just being like, I guess this is why we did it. Yeah. And then all the pressure I put on myself in that realization of like, oh my God, if I don't make it, if I don't succeed. How about that quote that everyone...

is like I am my ancestors wildest dreams which is like on one hand yes yes but also am I my ancestors wildest dreams when I'm sitting on my couch watching Bravo screaming at Erika Jayne I don't know is it the rest is it radical rest I don't know I don't know yeah maybe it is their dream because I'm just sitting on my ass and like don't have to do anything for somebody else I don't know I don't I don't I don't know how do we fix it

But I think, I feel like the thing we're both getting at is like, I don't, do we think guilty pleasures are actually a bad thing? Like, I don't think I think that they are. I think if they are obviously like anything affecting your life in negative ways. Yeah, there it is. Right. Or keeping you from some sort of forward movement or like.

looking inward or checking in. Okay. Yeah. But it's really still not about the guilty pleasure, right? It's more, it's about something deeper or something else. But I think we can also just like guilty pleasures are fun.

♪♪

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I also feel like the guilty part of it, like the part that's like, I'm not supposed to be doing this, but I am, is like the kind of the deliciousness of it, you know? Like, yeah. You know, I know I shouldn't have the RealReal app on my phone because I check it every morning and every evening and I have a wish list that's...

miles long. I know I shouldn't have it on my phone. I know I can't afford to buy myself an insane... What was it? I was looking at a vintage Dior bag this morning. I'm not gonna buy this bag. But it's kind of fun to put it in my cart for a minute and pretend like I'm gonna do it. You know? Like...

There's this, what was this thing? I actually did read this study that one of our producers sent me when we started talking about wanting to do this as an episode. And it was from the Journal of Applied Social Psychology. And it was about this group of smokers that they got. And there's like a little test that they did with them. So they set them in front of a computer and they showed them images of

just like settings or whatever. And some of the images had a non-smoking sign, like no smoking somewhere in the image, like just, you know, like not super big, but like somewhere in the image. And then other images didn't. And then afterwards they tested how much the pictures that they had looked at, like whether or not they wanted to smoke. And most of the people had an increased desire to smoke after looking at these pictures, this series of pictures with no smoking signs on them. So like,

Also, part of the study was talking about how like you have to cognitively like when you hear no smoking. Right. Or like no blah. No whatever. Yeah. You have to cognitively decide no smoking. Right. Like because your brain hears smoking, you know, which makes a lot of sense when I think about my toddler. Yeah.

And like no TV. And she's like, yes, TV. She cognitively isn't in a place to be like, hmm, maybe no, you know? Right. Well, is that like, is there joy in the like rebellion of it? Like, is it fun to be? I think, I think that with like gossip, like,

I admit it. Gossip is a guilty pleasure of mine. I feel inclined to also say that I don't do it with strangers. I only do it with people I feel close to. Only the crew that you feel like. Yes. Only the good people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you're friends with Melissa and she's never gossiped with you and she doesn't really like you.

I don't trust you. Sorry to drop it on you. Sorry, sorry, sorry. But there is this when someone especially offers gossip. I have school-age children and, oh my God, elementary school is a hotbed for gossip. Lots of times, I don't contribute to that, but lots of times people are just offering and I will listen because I enjoy it and how could you not? But there is that feeling of when someone starts a bit of gossip, a bit of

oh, did you hear? Immediately, there's this feeling of like, oh my God, I'm about to do something so bad. I'm about to like hear a forbidden thing. Right? And then, yeah, just how you laughed. It's like, ooh, talk to me. Yes. You know? And that there is like, I know this is bad and we don't want to like –

But also, tell me what she said. I mean, that's real. That's really real. What is that book, The Four Agreements? It's like, don't talk ill of anyone. And I'm like, okay. Good luck, babe.

It's really difficult not to want to. I will say this. I try not to talk like there's a difference between gossip. Yes. Like probably not going to hurt anybody and then like really talking shit about people. Oh, yeah. That's the part that feels different. No, no, no. Yeah. I feel like that's not gossip. That's just. That's something else, right? That's something else. But what is it? I don't know. I don't know either. Yeah.

It's not pleasurable, though. No. Both of us have this look on our faces where we're like, ugh. It's not pleasurable. I don't feel good, right? Yeah. I don't feel good when I'm hearing something bad about someone. Or, yeah, I immediately get uncomfortable. What the hell? But, yeah, it's, you know. However, lightly teasing is kind of also. Lightly teasing. Oh, my God. My, my.

Okay, so Seth, how do we stop feeling guilty about our guilty pleasures? Maybe we start with like not calling them guilty pleasures. No, I like the phrase guilty pleasures. You do? I feel like this like inherently makes us feel guilty, like just off the bat, right away. I think it takes the pressure off of it because it's like, oh, you know, it's not like a regular like...

I do this thing for pleasure. It's like, oh, this is my guilty pleasure. So it's totally fine. Right. I think some of it is like, I don't have to tell people that I meet in work environments that I watch Love Island. You know, some person like keeping it personal is okay. What else? I guess like trying not. I forgive myself for judging myself.

as lower intellect than people that don't want to watch these shows. Well, first of all, yeah, but I also want you to let go of the lower intellect part because it has nothing to do with your intellect. No, no, no, it doesn't. It really doesn't. It's just like, listen, these shows are produced well. They're shot well. They're hilarious. They're watched by millions and millions. They have some of the most complex female characters on television today.

I mean, villains and heroes. Maybe if we wrote better stories for women, we wouldn't need them so much. Surprise, surprise, surprise, surprise. Not me quoting TikTok. I think that's some of the ways. I mean, this is like stuff that we, a lot of it is self-reliance.

forgiveness, I think. Yeah. Forgiving yourself for judging yourself. Yes. And letting go. Letting go of what we think maybe people might think of us or judge our choice in guilty pleasure. I know it's easier said than done, but who the fuck cares? Who the fuck cares what people think? Yeah, I know. If it's your thing and it gives you some...

Some release, some escapism, some just like a fucking break. A rest. Yeah. As I was saying before. We don't need to earn a rest. We can just rest. You don't. You don't. You don't need to earn the rest. Yeah. Radical rest. And I guess just like also being mindful of...

perhaps balance with it. You know, if it be, you know, just like checking in that we're not indulging too much, I suppose. You know what, Melissa, my 12 hour marathon of Real Housewives of New York is not your problem. You know what? It's not. You know what? You're correct. You are correct, Stephanie. It's not. But I do think to your point, like mindful check-ins, I marathoned that marathon.

a couple seasons of Real Housewives of New York and I I like realized at the end of the marathon that I was fucking sad I was like bro I gotta get out of this apartment I gotta like move around because I'm just watching this because I'm so sad and it's not a pleasure anymore it's like it's too much of a good thing you know yeah enjoy your guilty pleasures don't give a fuck what other people think and mindful check-ins is what we have concluded yeah

Mindfulness. Don't worry about it. You could skip to the end right now. Skippers, here you are. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it, bro. Don't worry about what I'm doing. Don't worry about what you're doing. Like our little meme of that girl. Worry about yourself. Worry about yourself. Do you feel a little more better?

I do. It was fun to talk about guilty pleasures. It was. Yeah. I feel better about all the guilty pleasures I'm going to indulge in on Wednesday. You're going to have the best Wednesday. I'm going to have the best Wednesday. I'm just going to be on the couch all fucking day, probably watching Bridgerton.

God, what a great show. I know. Side note. What a great show. Nicola, you're just, you know, a gift. A gift. Stephanie, do you feel a little more better? Honestly, I don't. No. I don't. I was like, honestly, I don't. Okay. No. That's okay. I don't. Only because, like, for me...

Like, I wish I was the kind of person that just could be like, yeah, fuck it. I love myself and everything about me, but I'm not. And I do sometimes care too much what other people judge. But I think in this conversation, it's like, okay, I can tell you because I know you're not going to judge me. And I think it's a little bit of that, right? Like a little bit of choosing.

who you share your guilty pleasures with because it's not necessarily, it doesn't need to be everybody, you know? Yeah. It's like, not everybody needs to know that about me. I mean, not everybody does now. Everybody does now because we've talked about it on a podcast. But like the other things that in my life that I feel are little guilty pleasures, I don't necessarily have to share them with everybody. They can be for just me and that's okay too. And there's nothing wrong with like some of those things being for just me as long as I'm not breaking a law or hurting anybody, you know?

I think that's okay. I don't know that I feel more better about it, but I think I understand it a little better. Yeah. Well, I'll take it. I mean, that's pretty good. That's really good. So listen, we hope you enjoyed whatever you were doing, washing dishes, maybe you were driving, you know, and whether you're like failing or flailing or surviving or thriving, we get it. We get it. Thanks for hanging out with us while we

Disgusting digested. Bye. Bye, guys. See you next time. Do you have something you'd like to be more better at that you want us to talk about in a future episode? Can you relate to our struggles or have you tried one of our tips and tricks? Shoot us your thoughts and ideas at morebetterpod at gmail.com and include a voice note if you want to be featured on the pod.

More Better with Stephanie and Melissa is a production from WV Sound and iHeartMedia's My Cultura podcast network, hosted by me, Stephanie Beatriz, and Melissa Fumero. More Better is produced by Isis Madrid, Leo Clem, and Sophie Spencer-Zabos. Our executive producers are Wilmer Valderrama and Leo Clem at WV Sound. This episode was edited by Isis Madrid and engineered by Sean Tracy and features original music by Madison Davenport and Halo Boy.

Our cover art is by Vincent Remis and photography by David Avalos. For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. See you next week. Bye. Oh, no.

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