Ep. 10: Finding Elk Through E-Scouting with Mark Livesay
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Welcome back to another episode of Cutting the Distance. Today's guest is the owner and founder of Treeline Pursuits and Treeline Academy. We've all growing up, you know, figured out how to use Google Earth. We figured out how to use, you know, Onyx, GoHunt, Basemap, whatever it may be. But Mark may have did the best job

Maybe the only one that's put all this together in a very easy to understand, comprehensive roadmap to how to use the tools right, how to use them effectively, what you should be looking for. And so today we're going to dive into how to use the program to find stuff. We're probably going to dive into the nuts and bolts of it and how to find elk. That's what everybody wants to skip to and kind of get the short track to. So welcome to the show, Mark. Thanks for having me, Jason. It's good.

So Mark and I are here at the Western Hunting Summit. It's going good. I've got to hear Mark present. And what I love about Mark is his ability to use all the programs, not just, you know, the companies that he works with. He knows the program so well in and out. He will tell you, you know, what OnX is best for. You know, you've talked about like roads to the trailheads. You know, some of these things you've talked about, like Gaia is better because of the seven and a half old school topo.

Um, so we want to dive into, you know, finding elk, how to use Google earth on X, go hunt Gaia, all of these programs, all of this technology we have to make sure that whether you're coming out, you know, from East on your first elk hunt ever, whether you're an experienced Western hunter and just want to try a new spot. Uh, I want to, to give you some of these tools to make sure when you show up,

that you've you've did your research you have spots a b c d and e all the way to z if you need them you have what what i would consider a hump plan but you've never had to you know leave your computer desk yeah that's right so jason thanks it's been really good getting to meet you over the last couple years too and so you know you said something about all these tools and just before we get started you know you don't have to use all the tools right um just like when you call elk

You can make one sound. If you just make a cow call every now and then, it'll work for you, right? But that's not the way you do it, right? You use multiple versions, multiple scenarios, multiple setups, different kinds of tactics. And guys, I think when it comes to e-scouting and going about finding elk, at least digitally,

You've got to think that same way. If you become tunnel visioned, or I call it like yesterday in the presentation I mentioned, if you want to be a one-dimensional elk hunter, you can be a one-dimensional. But if you want to be a multi-dimensional and be willing to learn some new things and use the right tool for the right job...

I want to be really clear about that. I am pro all the apps. I mean, I love OnX. You know, I love GoHunt. I love Gaia. I even like Basemap for lots of things. But it's like when you go to work on your car, Jason, would you only use your screwdriver? No, you would not. So...

You don't have to use everything. I tell everyone, they're like, oh man, I don't know about buying all these apps. And I said, absolutely not. But what I always, almost always recommend is I always, I never go into the field without running two apps so that I have a primary and a backup.

so that I get a little different topo view. Like you mentioned, Guy, I get a little different. Like if I get a snow-covered aerial photo layer, then the other app is more likely to not have the snow because they get their aerial photos from different sources. So that's just, you know, to kind of kick things off, I think that a lot of people misunderstand me in the fact that, you know, I'm pro one app or I'm really negative about it. I'm not. I'm really focusing on what each app does

excels at and I use it specifically for what it's good at. But to do that, you have to get organized. You have to get a little organized. You have to spend a little time learning the tools and you have to get beyond your comfort zone. People get comfortable, you know, and they start using and they just, like you were talking about, we were talking about oak spots earlier. You know the spot in and out. You don't even need to turn on your app and blah, blah. You know, that's fine. But the day you move to another one,

you're going to have to, you might have to. And so, you know, that's kind of the way it works for me. And the way I kind of teach it is I, I try to teach a multi-pronged multi-dimensional approach to finding out. Yeah. Yeah. Good. And, and, you know, getting to sit on this course, I would say me and Mark probably are in line 90% of the time, what we're looking for to what we're looking for to find elk. And in my opinion, you only get so many days in September. If we're, if we're trying to, you know, yeah, you can hunt elk in October, November, but specifically trying to bow hunt elk

get to where they want to be during that rut. I don't want to waste even a day or two trying to find elk. I need to show up at a trailhead, be an elk because that starts that game for us. So I'm hoping everybody can, can get some great information. We're going to jump into some user questions right off the bat. If you have your own question,

Um, either hit us up on social, you can email ctd at phelpsgamecalls.com. Um, send us your own questions. So these questions actually stem from some of the users and from sitting in the class yesterday. But my first, the first question to you, Mark, is if you can only pick one elk feature. So when we're talking features, we're talking wallows, benches, burns, um,

I don't know if we can necessarily calculate or count fringes because they're in all of these areas. That's right. What would be the number one feature? Like if you could only hone in on one and say – and we all know we're all going to agree combinations of these features is the most important. But if you could hone in on one, what would you say you would look for in an area? So before I answer that because I get asked that a lot, I'm like, okay, I want to be careful about what I say here because one of the biggest things I teach in the class –

was exactly what I just said. If you want to be a one-dimensional elk hunter, you can expect one-dimensional success. And one-dimensional success for Western DIY public land is about 10%. Yep. If you want to be a 10% elk hunter, then you just keep acting like a 10% elk hunter. Yep. But...

When it comes to features, like you know what I like to do, I call it stacking the odds. And basically what I mean by stacking the odds, I mean stacking these features, right? But there are some of my favorites. So like I mentioned, I saved the best for last yesterday in my presentation. I like benches.

In most areas and in most states, it kind of applies across the board. Like water obviously is really important in some areas and not so important in others. But benches and the right bench location, the right bench setup, the right bench orientation, the asthma, the facing direction of the bench, the timber densities, everything.

Those are all pretty consistent, I found, with all the places I've hunted elk. And one of the reasons I like benches and the way I evaluate benches is elk spend a lot of their time during the day in that resting period, right? So if you're a caller and you love calling elk like I do, and of course you do, benches need to be on the top of your list because you need to, even if you don't approach the bench, you

you're going to try to put yourself like what we talked yesterday in that transitional zone between the metal feeding area that you tried to identify and maybe a water source and maybe those benches and try to triangulate what they're going to do. And so benches, I would say is my number one. I mean, we've, we've hunted enough country. We've walked enough. You'll be on a steep slope, you know, steep up. So hit that bench steep up and, and why elk will bed anywhere. I've seen them bed on 50% slopes. They'll dig out the upside of a tree and they'll figure out a way to bed. But I,

I would say the majority of the time, over 90% of the time, those elk are going to want to get to that bench. They've got good shade. They've got better bedding area. They've got, you know, for their natural defenses, as we mentioned, the way the wind typically works in these flat areas, they can lay on that downhill edge, look for any danger. So it just, those benches seem to attract elk. You know, they...

Whether it's wind, a combination of safety, more comfortable for the herd to land. But yeah, I would agree. Correct me if what you think in my observations of my, I've been hunting elk for 33 years now and multiple states a year. So I'm an adventurer guys. I,

I know I would probably have better success if I went back and really hunted some of the amazing places I've been, right? But I rarely, rarely do because I'm always – the grass is greener for me, you know, and it's to my detriment much. But I take my llamas. I'm in new places every year all the time. So if I've gotten good at e-scouting, it's probably because out of necessity because when you hunt –

three to four states a year, you can't do boots on the ground. And if you're changing spots every year in those states, you've got to get good at this or you're not going to find that many elk, right? So benches, one thing I've noticed is

It's a real, you've got a real good chance if you can find these prime bench spots, they're very historical. Like you'll find years and years of rubs on them, right? Yeah. Like, and when you find old, new, intermediate rubs, you know you're in the mecca. Yeah, because year after year they've used that. They've just, these big bulls don't get big by just running around laying in new spots all the time. They have picked these bench areas very strategically, right? And as long as the pressure remains stable,

or what they're used to dealing with, you can expect to find them there a lot of times. Do you agree? Yeah, yeah, 100%. And just to make sure everybody understands what we're talking about benches, let's say you have a 2,000-feet ridge from the creek bottom to the top. We're not talking about flat top ridges. We're not talking about flat levels in the creek. We're talking about, and I would prefer, and I know Mark's the same way because I sat through your course, I want that bench to be on top

my ideal bench is on a North slope or North Northwest Northeast. It's over halfway up and it's got pretty decent timber on it. Um, if possible. And, and the reason I feel is that they can easily jump over to the South slope to feed if they need be, if that's where their food's at. Um, it keeps them cool, cooler throughout the day, everywhere that we get to elk hunt in the Northern hemisphere. Um,

and it's just, that's my ideal bench. And, and when I show up to an area, if I've, if I've looked at it, that's one of the first spots I'm going to go hit just to make sure they're elk in the area. I can proof it through that. Now you don't want to go in, stink up their bedding area, blow it up right off the bat, but you want to go investigate around it, make sure there's tracks going in and out of it. See, see what's around. You know, so on benches too, you know, we mentioned all these tools. So, um,

Guys, it's really important to understand that all of the hunting apps, and we're not going to talk, I mean, I'm not going to get into any one particular. I'm just because they're all, I mean, to me, they're just, they're tools of the trade. But all topographic maps are not created equal, right? Some are more relaxed. Some are more summarized. Some are more, the lines are more smoothed out. So when it comes to breaking down benches, now some of these, what I call modified or adjusted topography maps are,

they're perfect for a lot of things, right? But when it comes to finding benches particular, I like to look at the 7.5 minute USGS topo map with the finest index contours and the finest contour lines I can find because some of these elk, like you said, they'll kick out of bed.

Everybody's always looking for that giant mega bench, you know, on the – well, if you see a giant mega bench, so is a lot of other hunters when they're doing their e-scouting. So I – now, I'm not saying I won't go to those places, but I'm also looking for these supplemental micro benches that are close to other features. Maybe they got a water – maybe they got – look like they've got a drainage run through them. Or maybe one of my – we talked about this in the course – in the presentation yesterday. One of my favorites –

is when benches are staircase. Like you've got a bench and then it's a little bit of a steep and then another bench and another steep. And if you happen to have any kind of drainage in there, that even adds more fuel to the fire. And like you said, if that bench is halfway to three quarters of the way up the top, that's even better. So basically what we're saying here is a bench is not always a bench. I like to find benches that stack some of these odd multipliers within the bench identification like

The location of the bench, the orientation of the bench, the staircases or the chain of it, what the relationship is to an edge habitat or a burn or a beetle kill or a feeding area. So what we were saying earlier, guys, is elk tend, in my opinion, they tend to migrate to these benches historically, even when the food sources may be adjusting.

Like if they're feeding in meadows and it starts to turn dry and they start feeding in more timber more, they may still be using those same binge areas, but they're hitting different feeding features, right? Traveling a little farther. Yeah, they're traveling a little farther. Even water, they'll make some adjustments, but I found those binges are really consistent. They're not, they're like, you know, you got to kiss a lot of frogs to find those mecca, those just mecca binges because they're,

And it's so funny to me, like you'll see one on the map that just looks like there should be like a thousand elk there and you'll go there and it's just whatever, you know, there's not much there. You'll go to one that just looks mediocre and there'll be a, elk can't even all fit on that bench, right? So elk, I always say elk are where they want to be, guys. Yeah, they're exactly where you find them. Yeah, but there are some things that you can do.

to increase the odds of running into them. And that's really what I'm trying to help people with is that trying to help you learn some things that will help you turn the tables and stack some of these odds in your favor. That's really the goal. For sure. Well, thanks for taking that question. We're going to jump into now my own questions for Mark. But yeah, if you have your own questions, feel free to submit them, ctd at phelpsgamecalls.com.

We did have another question, but it's actually going to kind of get rolled up in some of my questions. So we're going to jump forward and get into the discussion. So I'm going to ask you to rewind those 33 years of elk hunting here. If you were a brand new elk hunter, you decided this year, I'm going to go elk hunt and you have no idea where they live besides you've seen some off the county highway or county road. What would you recommend...

to, to people to, if you're a brand new elk hunter, where do you start? How do you, how do you start to build this picture of what elk like, where you're going to find them in the mountains, you know, and I'm talking DIY public land, you know, OTC type stuff. Like where are these elk, you know, are they seeking refuge or they seeking food? You know, you, we, we've got, you know, 10 to 15 features us elk hunters look for that, that, and then some of them have higher multipliers and,

What would you focus in on? You're looking at a new unit. How do you start your approach to finding elk? That's a great question because, okay, I did the presentation on elk finding features because remember I told you that

I monitor some of the progress in my course and these guys are just jumping to the up finding and they're forgetting about the core hunt area identification. They're forgetting about the zones of pressure. They're forgetting about the hunt parameters. So there's all these things that I have kind of adopted into my plan before I ever start looking for a bench. Let's just say one of the features, there's so many things that has to happen guys.

Just because there's a bench on the side of the mound that looks good and it's next to a fire does not mean there's going to be elk there. There could be

So how I start is I spend a lot of time in the research phase, guys. I use all the tools available. I don't become one-dimensional in the research phase just like I don't become one-dimensional in the app phase. I use all the available tools. So what I want to do is let's say we're going to hunt Montana. Okay, we've decided that Montana is the place we want to go. We want to figure out where in Montana we're going to go.

I got to start looking at these units and seeing, one, what is the elk population in those units? Now, guys, I don't get so caught up in this, well, you can kill a 330 to 360 bull in this unit. Now, there's some truth to that maybe, but guys –

The key is getting in numbers of elk for most hunters, right? The select few guys that are looking for that gemstone, I mean, that's fine. But I'm looking for very large numbers of elk. So I'm looking at migration data. I'm looking at, I'll tell you another one in a second here. So I'm looking at statistics, obviously. I even go to this guy. I know this is work, but this is how I do it. So I download the last three years of statistics in Montana.

And I put them in a spreadsheet of all the units or even all the units, whatever units you're interested in. And I want to run averages, right? Because you got to remember, most of these states do not have, well, I shouldn't say most, but a lot of states do not have mandatory surveys. They do some random stuff, right? So they might call you one year. They might not call you again for five years. And I just think they do a poor job. I'm just going to call them out, especially Montana. Yeah.

So you can't look at those stats and really make –

predictable calculations on one year. Now I do think with the random surveys, if you did an average, so the first thing I like to do is I like to prepare my own little spreadsheet. The stats are all available. If they're PDF, take the time to type them in guys, it's money or it's time well spent, break down some units. So I'm looking for elk populations. I'm looking for total hunters. I'm looking for the percentage of six point bull killed, not size, just the percentage of six point bulls killed if it's available.

But mainly what I'm looking at is bull to cow ratio. I'm looking for a significant numbers of bulls to cow ratio. And then I start kind of sorting out those units, right? And I'll pick a few and kind of zero in on them. And then I'll start Google earth flying guys. I do not start looking for elk finding features right off the bat. Yeah.

That's kind of all. It's not the last step, but it's down the road, right? Yeah. So one of the things I like to do is not only look at those elk numbers and then divide it by like 100 days in that unit. Because I want to not only be – because there might be a great unit, but it may have half the hunters in Montana. That's right. That's right. And so one of the other tips we do is then go find that 100 days and then divide the success rate or divide and come up with some sort of a number or an output. Like, all right, now these units are sorted by elk.

elk numbers, bold cow ratio numbers, but then how few hunters are in there. And I, I've always figured all hunters lie the same. So if we're at least using the averages and everybody lying that at least the data we've got, it's the best we're going to get. It's what you're going to get. So then I'll tell you, I don't say this very often, but guys, every state that has elk produces an elk management report and they can be up to 200, 300 pages long guys. And

They're not designed for hunters, but there is so much information in those like, oh, the herd here is doing this and the herd here is doing that. And the migration is getting bigger here and it's getting smaller here. Those things just can, if you do the stats and then you read through those, it's a quick Google search for Montana elk management report or elk management study or objectives. All the things will start coming up. But you take the time to read through that 175 page report. You will be amazed.

with the historical knowledge that you just implanted to help guide you in the process. So I kind of do that. And then I read these reports. I look at objectives, kind of make, you know, I want to hunt areas that have good huntable populations of elk. So then what I'm going to do, really, one of the most important things I think is e-scouting is, and I don't talk about this a lot, and I should, because it's really a big part of the course, but the zones of pressure.

Now, people get confused by that. They're thinking, oh, you're trying to get away from hunters. You're trying to get far in. Well, I do sometimes. But really what I'm saying, guys, you have to understand where the hunters are going to park, where they're going to access, what roads they're going to use. And if you start marking all that, and I got a whole system. We won't really get into that, but I got this whole system to help you

Basically diagram out this hunting pressure. If you take time to do that, you'll be just amazed again at what will jump out at you. You'll be like, oh, look at this spot right here. So I get guys from Oregon calling me all the time about Oregon and Washington. Man, we got roads everywhere. I can't really get far from this thing. And you always talk about packing in. I'm telling you right now, I think it's easier to find elk in high pressure areas than it is in low pressure areas. And everybody's like, you're out of your mind. Here's why.

Think about it. In a high-pressure area with a lot of roads, if you start doing the zones of pressure, there's only a few places they can get away to get a little seclusion. If you march into the – I'm just going to – Middle of the Bob. Bob Marshall. Those can be anywhere. They haven't seen a person. They haven't seen a person. They can go anywhere they want. There's nothing moving around. In some ways, guys, if it's done right and you take the time to analyze it,

Finding elk in high-pressure areas is almost easier than low-pressure areas. I prefer to hunt low-pressure areas because I like to call elk. And one of the problems with the high pressure is you get calling issues, right? But that's really the only reason. I don't like people. I'm kind of antisocial like Lampers. And I...

I like to call elk that haven't been called to a lot. Maybe it's just because I'm not a very good caller. And it's way, I mean, no, even for, I mean, it's way easier to call a bull and that's not been educated, not been messed with. It's just a lot easier. But as far as finding elk, right? Yeah.

Guys, they're always frustrated with Oregon and New Mexico and Washington. Some of these states have a lot of road networks and stuff. Guys, use it to your advantage, but you've got to approach it systematically. I'm telling you, the average guy cannot look at a map, cannot just look down and see all that road network and say, I'm going to go here because that looks like that's a little isolated.

You might get lucky, but if you do this, I do this circle. If you do this, if you put a radius around all the trailheads, I do a two-mile radius around all trailheads. I do a one-mile radius around all roads, and I mark it with markers. And then I look at what's left. If you do that, you'll be shocked at what starts jumping out. Then I start looking at these pockets like that. That's when I start looking for features in those areas that make sense because of the pressure evaluation. Okay.

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This is Brent Reeves from This Country Life. What makes South Dakota the greatest for pheasant hunting? With over 1.2 million pheasants harvested last year, South Dakota boasts the highest population of pheasants in the nation. In fact, you'd have to add up the total harvest from neighboring states just to get that many birds.

There's also millions of wide open acres chock full of different landscapes, meaning the hunt in one county is often completely different from just a few counties over. But what really makes South Dakota the greatest goes way beyond just hunting a colorful bird. It's the pursuit of something more like the camaraderie that awaits all kinds of hunters from all walks of life and partaking in South Dakota tradition over 100 years in the making.

It's about taking the greatest shots and watching your dog work the greatest fields in the greatest lands, carrying on the greatest heritage and making the greatest memories. So what are you waiting for? From the rush of the flush to the stories at the end of the day, experience a thrill like no other. Learn how at huntthegreatest.com. One thing I'd like to do now is...

We both know of all the features we look for. We're going to jump ahead a little bit. Now you've, you've, you went to the fish and wildlife website. You figured out data that you need to harvest data or the best you can. You know, it's not always possible to put boots on the ground. The one nice thing me and you have is we've been to enough areas that have had elk. We go back and it's almost like,

going back and then re-e-scouting like, well, why did this area have so many elk? So we've got all of this, but if you're a new hunter, you've identified an area, you've identified a unit, you think you can get to where there's no pressure. You know, you maybe you've jumped on Google earth and looked at the trail heads in September, whatever you need to, you're like, all right, I've got this spot. I can get water here. I can camp here.

before we get there, like what makes an elk spot typically good using all of the elk features and then kind of their multipliers, let's kind of walk through, you know, kind of the list of elk features, at least what we're looking for. You know, it's, it's very easy to say elk need three things. They need food, water, and cover. Like you, you hear that said all the time. I say it all the time. Yeah.

But there's more to it than that. Like, let's dive into what's food. What kind of food? What kind of cover? Is it a migration area? Are these elk going to continue to push higher and higher through August or are they maxed out in July? Like these areas are sometimes different. You know, are those bulls that you scouted? Maybe you do get a scout all summer. Those bulls are going to move somewhere around August 15th. Like, do you know where they're going? Do you know where the groups of cows are?

Water, that can mean different stuff to different elk in different regions. You know, some areas, every creek's plumb full. Some areas have springs. Some, those elk are going to literally need to live. The entire herd is going to have to live out of a little seat. Let's talk about food, cover, water. But then, you know, all of these things, I think everything that we talk about elk features can fall under that in one form or another. You know, whether it's a bench, that's probably security, comfort, locationality.

Let's just start at the top and walk down through the elk features that we both know we're looking for. Let's just list them like we did. And let's not spend a lot of time talking about each one because we know that's a whole freaking ordeal. But I think it's important to expose everyone to kind of the things that I'm looking for. So once we've identified our spot and we've determined that we are interested in it, guys, I look at a ton of places that I never hunt.

It just doesn't pan out. Even though it met the criteria for the stats, it met the criteria for the pressure, right? The roads, everything. I had some remoteness. I had everything I was looking for, but the feature set just didn't support what I was looking for. And when I say feature set, I do about 10 to 12 things. It depends on the region.

But the first thing I do is, as part of the pressure evaluation, is trailhead and trail analysis. Not many hunters do this, and I don't know why, but they should do

And like I said yesterday, there's really only one tool you can use to do it, and that's Google Earth. In order to look at that level of detail, you need the highest zoom capability that you can get. And currently, that's with Google Earth. Now, as these apps get better and better and better, that may change. But presently, that's still the best tool for getting fine detail work done. I look at every trailhead. Is it a Walmart parking lot? Or does it look like there's only room for two cars? That tells you so much right there.

Most guys just look at the map and say, I'm going to go to Trailhead B. And they show up and it looks like Costco. And they're like, oh, man. And then they're immediately in a negative mindset, right? Yeah, they're deflated before their hunt starts. They're deflated. And maybe there's reason, but maybe there's not reason. So I analyze every trailhead. I'm really...

I'm really picky about that. The next thing I do is all the trails that are on the map, on the USGS topo map that are in my hunt area, I zoom in on every one of them. I want to see, can I see the brown line? Is there grass in it? Are there multiple lines? Meaning side parallel lines. That can mean one of two things. If you start seeing a trail that has, for example, multiple lines, that means there's either outfitters or there's cattle.

So because if it's just a hiking trail, you won't see that, right? There's just little nuances like that. A lot of guys don't really probably think about putting in their arsenal. So I kind of break down the area and that tells me a lot about I've already done my pressure analysis. Like I've said now, now I kind of have an idea of where everyone's parking, how many people are parking there and how they're using those networks of trails.

And if I see a really, really prime, like the example I showed yesterday, really, really prime unit, one of the best in Montana and a really obvious trail, but there was no sign of anybody walking on this trail. And we started breaking it down and it was a, this giant beetle kill area. So we immediately knew there's probably a good chance. The reason it's not being used is because it's going to be difficult, right? Yeah. Just Jack strut trail. Yeah. So that's, I start there second, not in any particular, or I don't want to say second, just, you know, these are just the features.

I'll try to make sure I remember it in the right order. So canyons, creeks, and drainages, I evaluate all the drainages. They're very important elk. What direction they face, their flat bottoms, how steep they are. Do they have the appropriate topography? How are they in relation to the zones of pressure? Are there trails in the bottom? Are there no trails in the bottom? Those kind of features, the trails and canyons, creeks, and drainages. And I would include basins and bowls in that as well.

The next thing is probably, I'm trying to think off the top of my head here, what I would want to say next. Well, we'll just jump into it. So fires, guys, fires and elk just go hand in hand. And a lot of hunters know it, so they look for fire zones. So you've got to be methodical when you're researching. It's not, I hear so many people say all the time, oh, fire zones are great for elk. I'm like, okay, that's good.

Well, why? We're in what time? When? How old does a fire have to be? How steep does a fire? I mean, there's so many things. Giant fires, guys. Some of these fires are huge.

Where are they? How do they come in and out? Where are they most likely to come in and out? We talked a lot about that. So breaking down fires and the edges of those fires, what does the edge look like? Is it a straight edge or is it a jagged edge? Are there burned timber patches? Are there unburned timber patches? All these things kind of stack up within fires to make them more desirable to elk for me.

Beetle kills, one of my favorites. But beetle kills, as we talked about, they're very difficult to evaluate because in order to hunt a beetle kill, in my opinion, you have to know when it started.

If you go into a 25-year-old beetle kill, it's going to be a problem. It's going to be very difficult. It's going to be very, very strenuous, physical. It doesn't mean the elk won't be there. Yeah, I was going to say, some of the toughest hunts of my life have been in beetle kill where you don't touch the ground for a week at a time. Yeah. But then the elk hunting is just great. And so it's just really what you're after on that hunt. Like, is it going to frustrate you to high hell to have to be, you know, dogfighting?

dodging logs, but as you mentioned, you're going to get into kind of the prime time in your opinion to hunt beetle kill. That's right. I like that window. And one of the, one of the reasons I think I like beetle kills is I think guys hunters, a lot of hunters are super scared of beetle kills. And I think it's a limiter that you can use to your advantage. I think it's something that people, Oh, I don't have any interest in that. And, uh, or I think a lot of guys, they don't even know they're hunting a beetle kill until they get there and they see it.

But there are a lot of studies, guys, on beetle kills, and I've read almost everything I can find about it, but most of the studies are showing that the elk prefer the beetle kill to a certain point. Once it becomes the jack pine type situation, the elk use it less and less and less. There's high pressure situation.

Elk and low pressure do not tend to go into those matchstick environments as much or more than they will in a high pressure. So for example, a lot of research in Colorado being done on beetle kills because the whole state's pretty much wiped out. Well, these elk are learning how to live in these beetle kills, like massive piled up beetle kills. These elk are just living year round. They're not even migrating anymore and they're adapting and guys that are capable and willing to do it are having good luck with that.

And so beetle kills is one, um, slopes, you know, um, the right degree of slope, the right orientation of slope. I spent a lot of time on slopes and, you know, there's some apps that are coming out now that have tremendous slope analysis tools. Cal Topo is a free site you can use. It's got tremendous slope analysis. You know, elk really prefer, they really liked that 20 degree. It's like their magic zone.

Once it gets up to closer to 60%, now I say, here's the other thing I want to make sure everyone knows is I interchange percent and degree, but that's not the way I should be doing it because percent and degree are not the same guys. Make sure you understand that. So when you like looking at Google earth, it's in percent. When you look at most other thing, it's in degree.

I want to say it's about half, but it's not quite half. So 20 degrees, 40%, that's not complete, but you can kind of work off of that. But, you know, people say, oh, I see elk on super steep stuff. Of course you do. Of course you do. What puts them on that super steep? Well, predation, people, pressure will cause late season even because the snow being –

when blown off the slopes, there's reasons that elk start spending time on more steeper slopes in my opinion, but during archery season where they can go wherever they want, it seems like that 20 is the magic. And so I spent a lot of time kind of like, okay, there's this bench area. What is the slope? What's the slow bang on this area?

And do I hunt an area only because it has 20 degree slopes? No. It's just another one of those features. But when I see it, I just add it to the list of features. And what are we doing? We're stacking the odds, right? So we already mentioned benches.

Funnels and saddles. I spend quite a bit of time on funnels and saddles, mainly because in high pressure areas. If I'm hunting, I'm just going to give you guys a really good tip. If you're hunting Colorado, there's a lot of people there, guys, but there's a lot of elk. I mean, a lot of elk. Saddles and funnels are at the top of my list in Colorado.

There's a lot of them, and the mountains are steep. The terrain is big. The elevations are big. And the elk, you know, when given the chance, they love the path of least resistance, right? For sure. So saddles and funnels, travel corridors, timber connections, those are all really important in high-pressure areas. You know, in low-pressure states, you draw my primo tag in Nevada, in Utah, you'll see elk walking across giant meadows all the time, right? And that's what you always see on TV.

But in OTC states, you just don't see that as much. Yeah. Right? Would you agree? And they use these corridors to move around. So I always want to identify those as well. So that's a few of them that I look for. Yeah. And I want to elaborate a little bit on...

And maybe this is fast forward in a little bit. When I show up to a trailhead, it's hunting season now. Our e-scouting is done. You had made mention of passes and saddles. One thing we did talk about is the fringes, which you like to look at on big timber to fire edges. You're looking at meadow to timber edges. When I show up to a trailhead to very quickly proof the area,

Now we don't want to go blow them out of their beds and whatnot, but I, I want to go check and, and, and I will have, I told you I burned it into my mind, this area. So I don't, I don't have my Apple marked up. I know I'm going to walk down this drainage. I want to check this meadow edge. And then I've almost got my route pre-planned. If there's elk there, then I'm going to climb, um,

you know at a 45 i've got a saddle up here i want to hit i want to see if these elk are flip-flopping from this drainage to that drainage and just by checking fringe areas and and when i when i say fringe what i think is you know feed which is meadows alpine meadows not always the biggest giantness meadow there where they can feed secluded and comfortably

I want to go check that edge. I want to go check passes and saddles. I want to go check potential bench edges or fringes. I don't necessarily want to get right in there. And then I want to go check for what I thought maybe potential water sources. If there's wallows in the area, if there is like, um, you know, drinkable where I think elk have to go to drink versus a creek, a creek, I'm not going to go run. Maybe I will run the bottom, but I want to run fringes. I want to run ridge lines. And then I want to go check on these other

feature rich areas or feature to feature areas just to see if there are elk in there and then see if they're moving around. Otherwise back in, you know, I'm, I'm wasting time there. Um, one of the things we, we both get a bunch of questions is guys and gals will go to a trailhead and

set with plan A, they don't have a plan B, C, or D. They will put all of their eggs in that basket and they will, I don't want to say waste, but they will use up all of their 10 days at that trailhead and never really be in them. You know, those elk will move. And so,

You want to quickly go there. If my spot, a maybe for some reason, you know, we've got a lot of time on this now. So I'm usually don't guess wrong where I think elk are going to be. But if I do like I'm loading up, like we're not sitting at this spot for more than a day. We, we talked about it yesterday, be out there at prime time. If I got to get up two hours early, um,

But that two hours is going to save me 24 hours or 48 or 72 of staying in an area that doesn't have an elk. I want to be out there listening in the dark. I want to be out there looking for, you know, be in their spots in prime time, run these areas, give it maybe a night to see if things don't feed out in different locations. I'm out of there. I'm going, as you mentioned, we did this e-scouting for multiple spots, one, two, three, four, A, B, C, and D, and we're moving to the next spot. Man, you almost just preached right out of my core. So,

that's one of the things, one of the, you know, at the end, our goal is to have a hunt plan. Right. And so my idea of a hunt plan is a collection of hunt areas. Like,

And hunt areas are exactly as you described. It's a place that you could conduct your entire hunt within. I never go on anything less than a 10-day hunt without four to five options. Now everybody's like, oh, man, that's a lot of work. I'm like, yeah, maybe. Let's say you go to number one and there's elk everywhere and you never touch two, three, and four. Who cares? You've got those for next year. They're always in your pocket. You're not wasting time developing hunt areas. Yeah.

I see so many guys, you know, what another tip guys stay as mobile as you freaking can live like a gypsy Don't set up the giant wall tents and put the carpet in build the decks I see got edges outrageous things, you know, you are anchoring yourself to a spot you have automatically in my opinion You've automatically decreased your odds for success now

Now you might get lucky from time to time, or you might, everybody, and I have other guys tell me, I don't know if you've ever heard this, yeah, we're going to, we're kind of waiting for him to move in. I'm like, have you ever heard that? Oh yeah. You're going to be here any day. I'm like, you're going to, you're going to bet your entire 10 days of elk hunting that you waited the entire year on that they might roll in. Yeah. Now, if you are super familiar with an area, I guys, I always get these, well, this happened to me. I got it.

But unless you really, really, really, really know an area and it's happened multiple times, I certainly wouldn't bet on that. For sure. I'm not even willing to give up. These guys are going to show up. If you have a 10-day hunt, I'm not even willing to give 24 to 48 hours waiting. Those elk are alive, bugling, rutting, living somewhere in that unit. Let's go find them. Yeah, that's right. It just...

It's the other thing. I mean, not necessarily what this podcast is about, but time is, is like the number one contributor to once the season's here, you get, of course you have to find elk, but it's just time and opportunity. Like no matter how good a caller you are, no matter how good a shot you are, um, you

you know the wind does what the wind does the the elk do what the elk do you can't control them it's going to take multiple times and and I've got to be in the game every day every day um in order for these things to pan out you know they're me and Ryan in New Mexico we were there for eight days you know and until we got a shot it was just like well and everybody else was kind of packing up I'm not gonna call it name names yeah yeah yeah I mean it was just to that point where it's

Even guys in one of the better units, it just takes time for some of this stuff to all come together. There's been many times where

I might not even decide I'm pretty aggressive. So usually this doesn't happen, but there may be an instance where I want to watch these elk for a day or two to pattern them. If I know nobody's going to go pressure them, it's to my advantage to see what these things do before I finally like go blow the spot up. You know, it's, it's all or nothing. And I do that a lot too. That's kind of my approach. Now, one of the reasons that we're able to do that guys is we get a lot of days to hunt and I understand I'm blessed. You're blessed. We're all, we're blessed to be doing what we do. Right. But,

But when I was coming from Missouri hunting, sometimes I had to get a little more aggressive. I didn't have the luxury to wait for days and days and days. For sure. Or I didn't think I did. And, you know, Ryan said it. We were talking and they were asking Ryan last night about stalking that elk and what he would do and every time. They kept trying to change the scenario so he would change his answer, right? Yeah.

But what did he say every time? He said, I would sit there. I'm waiting. I would wait. See how it pans out. I would wait, wait, wait. Patience kills elk, guys. Most people, you crack me up, they act way too quick. They call too frequently. They make a move too much. And sometimes, guys, slow it down. You're right where you need to be. Sometimes you almost have to let the elk kill themselves. Yeah. We talked about it yesterday quite a bit in multiple scenarios where

Once you decide to call, once you decide to let that elk hear you, whether it's break and brush, you've now giving you, you at that point, you've given up seclusion and, and you're no longer a fly on the wall. You're now an active part of the game versus a very, very passive part of the game. Whether, and that affects me, even if I'm going to go in there and rip a bugle, like I do not want him to know why I'm on the ground anywhere that I'm in existence until I'm ready to rip a bugle. You know, if,

we've had, you know, glunk and bowls running circles around cows and they're doing the same path. They're doing the same loop. You know, why would you disrupt him being completely unfocused on you, him giving you, you know, multiple shots after shots to, to give up your position, you know? And, and so we're, we're running a little tangent there, but, um,

Yeah. So to close here, Bart, we're winding up. We got a lot of events going on here and places to get. But if you could give one single tip to help a new elk hunter this year, it doesn't even have to be in line with finding elk or apps. What would be your bit of advice? You know, I'm going to go back real quickly. I'm going to go back to that multiple hunt plans.

Here's the thing. I've talked to so many people. If you invest in plan A, a lot of guys become emotional about it, right? Like they put a lot of work. They e-scouted it. It just looks amazing. They know there's going to be a 400-inch bull just standing in that meadow when they get there, right? And then they get there and something, people, no elk, whatever, something derails them.

And it's psychologically damaging. It really is. Especially the passion that we have for hunting elk. When this passion gets interrupted, we don't deal with it well, right, as elk hunters. Guys, I'm telling you right now, take the time. Work out three or four options completely. So when the time comes, here's the scenario.

When you got no plan and you're driving into town to get cell service, to download some maps and try to figure out what you're going to do, you're at a low of low, right? We've all done it. Yeah, always. We've all done it. I've done it. I'll admit it. But when you say you hike in, like you said, you spent 24 hours and nothing turns up, you're like...

But you know that you've got a complete mapped out plan B. Make a move. You know how long it's going to take you to drive there. You know how long it's going to take you to hike into camp. You say, if I leave right now, I can be there. I can be at camp by three. I can even hunt the evening. Your spirit is lifted right then.

You're ready to move. But if you don't have, and your maps are already downloaded, everything's prepped, all your waypoints, all your finding features, all your routes, your glassing spots, everything is pre-done, right? Pre-done. You are at a comfort level that is so, I can't explain. It's almost euphoric that you're almost ready to move to plan two. But when you don't know what you're going to do, you're very resistant to move. I'm going to give it one more day.

Yep. Right? I'm going to wait. They're going to be here any day, like we just said. And you'll start falling into those traps. Yeah, it's a mental compounding trap. Guys, there's so many things that can go wrong with elk hunting. We have to take control of the things that we can control. And guys, hunt planning, that's stupid. If you do not have your hunt plan together, that's just...

That's laziness, in my opinion. You can't control where the elk are going to be. You might be able to can't control what people are going to do. You can't control the masses, what the trail that they're going to show up, but you can control what you're going to do and how you're going to do it. And if you have a systematical approach to start working through, you stay mobile, you stay fluid, you can move quickly from one to the other and you've got progression.

You know, one of the things I'll tell you, if you're hunting with a buddy, one other tip that I, this has just proved out to be so good to me too, is, you know, the last thing that if I would tell somebody to do is when you look at planning, you're like an assault into an area, try to do, I call it progressive hunting where you can park a rig at one spot and hunt to that rig. Because when you go in and out on the same trail, you're, you're,

I'm not saying it's not productive, but you're seeing the same territory. And a lot of guys, it's a little more work to plan that out. Now, some areas just don't work out like that, right? The trails don't connect, right? Or it's too far or whatever. But one of my most successful tactics with my llamas

is to start at Trailhead A and do like, I do like 30, 40 miles. Like a through, more of a through hunt. Over 10 days, through hunt. But I have rigs at both ends. If I only make it two miles in, there's elk everywhere, great. I go back to that rig. Yeah. If I'm in the middle, I just try to decide, okay, which way is the roughest? Yeah. And you know, guys, it's incredibly productive because you're seeing new country and it allows you to work through a progression. Yeah.

You might not get elk here, here, here, but sometimes hiking in five miles and coming out five miles, you know, it takes up a lot of time to do it. And it's deflating and you're, you're only, so you've now hiked 10 miles, right? Yeah.

but you've only got to see five miles of country and you, I feel like it's a deadhead on the five miles back because you've already wrote that country off if you're walking through it. And so you're not even paying attention. Yeah. Now guys, don't get me wrong. You can't do that most of the time. And if you're solo, that may not work as well. But if you're hunting a group and you got multiple vehicles, guys, don't forget that strategy. It's a good one. Yeah. And,

you know, kind of to piggyback and kind of close the loop on this hunt planning. I agree. Hunt plan. Number one, know what you're going to do. If spot one, two, three, and four, don't pan out where you're going. But the other part is, is,

as he had mentioned, you show up and there's, you know, trees all over the trail. You had this pretty picture in your mind. You're going to hike. It was going to take you 2.34 miles, you know, three, four hours to hike the five miles. This is where you're going to set up your tent. And, um, it just, it's a psychology issue. You know, you instantly fall apart, but, um, to piggyback on that is don't give up because that drive to town, you're instantly thinking about, is this hunt already over? Like it's very easy unless you're just mentally prepared to, to, to keep fighting through it.

Um, don't give up. Like I would, I would challenge you to just spend a day on the mountain and enjoy it. Like don't hunt, just hang out, listen, drive the road system, glass, get dry and watch and just give yourself a day because I, time is, is ultimately, we can talk about finding elk. We can talk about being the best bow shot, the best color, um,

Ultimately, you have to keep punching that time clock and that's days in the field. And more importantly, days on elk, not in your truck, not in your tent, especially not at home. Right. When you've given up and take that drive home, like,

My wife would kill me if she heard me say this, but I would rather have a 10 day vacation hanging out on the road in elk country where I can physically then to be home. Um, like at that point, I've now lost my ability to kill anything. Well, the camper, we had the, you know, we had the guest ask us that question yesterday, never hunted elk, right? He's here at the summit.

He goes, what's the one thing I could do? What's the one thing I could do? Well, there's so many we could have said, but what did we say? Just stay in the game. Get out there at first light. Get out. Stay until dark. You know, move around. I mean, guys, you...

Good things happen if you put yourself in play. If you're in your truck and you're driving around or you're at home, you're certainly not going to kill an elk. For sure. And I can't tell you. You know, elk hunting, I say this about bear hunting as well, but it's 99% boredom and 1% freaking crazy adrenaline, right? You work for that 1%.

You never know when that 1% is going to happen. For sure. Yep. It can happen at any moment. I've been in areas I haven't seen any sign. No elk. Haven't heard an elk. And all of a sudden, there's a giant bull screaming in front of me. Just out of nowhere. Now, I'm not saying it happens all the time. But, guys, you just got to stay in the game. Don't get discouraged. Don't give up. And the way not to get discouraged is by planning. The more planning you have.

the better. And I guess if we got time, I'll say one more guys, don't get out of your capabilities. I have an entire module in my course dedicated to realities and limitations. And the reason I see so many guys, eight, nine miles in the back country. And I'm like, what are you guys going to do if you kill an elk? Oh, well, I don't know. I mean, guys, if you go beyond your capabilities, you're going to wear yourself down. You're going to limit the days you're going to be able to hunt. You can kill elk one or two miles on the road, right? If that's your limit,

Work a plan that works with your capabilities. If you're out of shape, who cares? That doesn't mean you can't hunt elk. It just means you got to work maybe a little more strategic, maybe cross a creek that nobody's willing to cross. Maybe you're going to do some things like that. But work a plan that works in your ability. Don't try to be Ryan Lampers if you're not Ryan Lampers, right? Because you're going to get over your head and it's going to be negative and you're going to be –

It's going to wear you down and you're going to quit hunting. Yeah, early, really early. God forbid you kill an elk or something back there and then really have a big issue on your hands. Stay in your building. You owe it to the elk, right? It's not only about...

I mean, I feel like I owe it to the elk to get all that meat out. And it takes a while for new hunters to build that understanding and like mental capacity. Like I think some of us have moved, like I can kill an elk anywhere and I'll devise a plan. Like if I need to get it to a crick, like I will figure out a way to take care of this elk. But I think until you've did it enough and, and,

It's just as much of a mental game. And I think as you hit the nail on the head by planning, you're at least taking some of that mental pressure off of yourself not to give up on that hunt. You're not going to let yourself... Guys, when you're hunting, you're dehydrated. You're stressed. Your wife's texting you on your in-reach when you're going to come home. You got all these things. You got work. You're thinking about... You got so many things on your mind. The more you can take...

the decisions out of your, the equation when you're elk hunting. I make, when I go elk hunting, by the time I get to the trailhead, right, my decisions are made. I know where I'm going pretty much every day until something happens. Now I'll make modifications, but I've got a systematic strategy that I'm going to work through.

And when you're laying in your tent and you haven't seen anything yet and you pull out that hunt plan and you're looking at it and you're like, oh, I forgot about this little spot that I had. I'm going to go there tomorrow. And all of a sudden, you're an elk. But if you don't have it, you're going to make bad decisions. You're going to give up. Well, I'm not saying you're going to. You're going to be more likely to. ♪

Well, I really appreciate having you on today, Mark. We get back to some of the other, um, you know, classes and stuff going on. Really appreciate it. Can you tell everybody how to find out a little bit more, how to get ahold of you, how to find out more about tree line pursuits, tree line Academy. And, uh, I've got to sit on, you know, some of Mark's stuff, both at elk shape now and at Western hunting summit.

a wealth of information. You know, I think it's, we've got to talk here for a little over half hour, but you've got 40 hours plus of material. You dive, and then he dives way deeper into some of this stuff on, you know, features specifically, how to use some of the apps to find that. Let everybody know how to find you, how to check

check out more of that. So start with, you can, I mean, on Instagram, I really do. I try to do a pretty good job of keeping my content up and what's going on. Some of the films and bear hunts and all the things we've been doing, but tree line pursuit, tree line underscore pursuits is Instagram. And then tree line pursuits.com is kind of my, my landing page for a lot of my, you know, dehydrated meals, recipes and articles and blah, blah, blah. But tree line academy.net is where the course sets.

You can get to it through treelinepursuits.com if you just remember that. But, you know, the main thing is just...

Check out my Instagram page. I've got a link tree with all the access to all these things. Well, we really appreciate it once again having you, Mark. Take care. Thanks, Jason. Great information. And like I say, I would bet what I've heard Mark say, 95% of the stuff, it's the exact same stuff I use. I'm just not as organized as him. But we're looking for the same exact things. You just make sure to save everything a little better and tidy it up. Yeah.

You already got these places worked out, so you've already done the work. Thanks for having me. Yeah, thanks. Hey, we're going to take a little break here and talk about interstate batteries. Now, if you're like me, enjoying the great outdoors, you need gear that is as reliable as it gets. That's why I power my adventures with interstate batteries. I use interstate batteries in my boats. I use interstate batteries in my camper. Great for your truck, too. From Alaska to Montana, they're outrageously dependable.

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