Ep. 109: Backcountry Mule Deer Hunting with Tom Schneider
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All right, we're back with another episode of Cutting the Distance podcast. This week, my guest is Tom Schneider. You probably remember Tom from our wolf episode earlier on. And then we did a couple of episodes of rifle hunting tactics, which were wonderful.

wildly popular and much appreciated from our listeners. Tom, if you don't know, if you haven't listened to those, Tom, if you don't know who Tom is, he's probably one of the best all around hunters that I know. You put this guy in the woods, chasing elk with a bow. You put him in the woods, chasing elk with a rifle, mule deer with a rifle, white tails with a rifle, a bow, you name it. Tom and his family can,

they're very accomplished hunters. So welcome again to the show. I'm glad to have you on. Thanks again for having me. I appreciate it. Absolutely. So how was your fall this year? We haven't talked. I know, I feel like you've been busy. I kind of follow, I watch you on social and you're like, you go from working like a madman to being hunting like a madman. And it's like, I don't know, you probably haven't hardly had a breath to breathe. How's your fall been?

Oh, just like you pretty much summed it up. And that one sentence working and hunting. And I took on more work than, uh, I, I should have this hunting season. So, um, so anytime I am home, it's like, Oh, should it be time spent with the wife and kids or going back to full on, you know, long days working in the woods. So, um, but no, it's, it's, it's always trying to find that balance. Um, it was, it's been a good fall. Um,

Yeah, I started in Alaska. I did a moose hunt in Alaska. It's been a long time since I hunted moose.

And man, I stayed way longer than I should have. Well, I was like, I was seeing pictures in Alaska and then I seen more. I'm like, is he still up there hunting? Like what the heck, right? He's gone a long time up there. That's a lot, what a lot of people were saying too. And I had some friends at home, we were talking about wolf hunting, like I had some friends at home, like, Hey, I got a good lead on a wolf pack. I'm like,

I can't go. But I'm like, I'll be home soon. A week or two goes by. And they're like, hey, are you back yet? I'm like, no, I'm still in Alaska. You're like, you're still in Alaska? And oh, man. Yeah, it was interesting. But yeah, I'd say so. I left to Alaska September 5th and I got back the 28th. Holy cow. Wow. That's a long time. That's an amazing trip. Yeah.

Oh yeah. Well, the moose just whipped our butt, you know, and I felt like, so the hunts I've done in the past with moose, and this was before my brother-in-law and sister ever moved to Alaska, you know, Travis and I used to just do DIY hunts and, you know, I felt like finding the moose was never the problem. Like it was just the hardest part was packing them out. Oh yeah. And this was one of those hunts where I'm like, it really humbled me on moose hunting. Cause I,

I felt like it was always more of work than it was hunting. And we did a lot of hunting and trying to find a moose to kill. And it was just, I think a lot of hunters, you know, have this experience of being just in the wrong spot at the wrong time over and over and over and over again. And we just, it was just, yeah. And so, um, but I, uh,

try to shorten my story up the last day of moose season i wanted a moose with a bow but i said screw the bow it's staying at camp i'm sorry hoyt but yeah i left the boy at camp and um

And so I'm like the rifles in the hand, you know, and we could even get, we were even having a hard time getting a moose in, in law, you know, within 600 yards. I was like, how are we expect to get one with a bow if we can't even get him that close, you know? And I say the biggest struggle we were fighting there, we were hunting without giving too much detail. There just wasn't really good elevation where you can sit up in glassies moose. Oh, you're kind of hunting these bottoms. You got a lot of alders. And so your visibility is very slim and I don't feel like,

There wasn't one time where I'd say like we were in a good spot where we could glass. There was a lot of moose activity. They just, you couldn't glass them up. And then when it, when the sunrise and everything would bed down, it just, everything went quiet, you know, and you'd sit there and,

you know, hike the mountain and grunt. And, you know, Adam is a really good hunter. I'm a really good hunter, but I also feel like, you know, you get two guys that have different opinions on how to hunt. And, you know, I, I left a lot of it to Adam and, but there was times where I'm like, you see me, I'm kind of the skinny guy that always wants to hike. And I know glassing is important too, but I'm like,

when especially when there's not a lot of visibility i'm like uh adam i think we should just hike you know right right and he's like if we just sit here because it is the rut he's like well if we just sit here we'll see moose passing through and i'm like okay you know and after a couple days of that i'm just like i think we should start doing more moving around hiking a lot more and stuff and and it seemed like either way

Nothing was working. That's frustrating. And so we're just like, hi, it's not working and trying to locate a bowl. No, hiking's not. And I was just right. But the last day, last, it was the last day of season. Um, you know, we saw a meadow and it was just moose rut activity, like crazy. But we were, uh, I'd say we were probably at 1300 yards, but as soon as you start closing that distance, um,

cutting that distance to about, you know, to even just long range rifle range between 800 to 600 yards, you couldn't see them anymore. And so you couldn't tell where they'd even bed down, you know, because there was a lot of, there was a small amount of meadows, but a lot of alders. And so when they bed down, you're like,

I have no clue where they bedded. And so, cause they can move another hundred to 200 yards into this, into the alders and disappear. But anyways, kind of the plan was cause it, you know, the sun rose, it was a warmer day. They all bedded down. I was like, I know Adam, this sounds like a crazy idea, but I think we need to do is just do it. It's a huge loop around walking through bog, walking through a lot of nast, but to keep our wind in our favor. And I think just waiting that meadow, uh,

about right in the evening when all the moose to come back to feed and do there's, you know, the, the cow moose are feeding, but the bulls are rutting like crazy, but just wait for that last hour before dark. It's a long ways out from our camp, but I think if we wait there, then I think that last hour before dark, I think we should just grunt the heck out of that, you know? And that's what we did. You know, like I said, morning wrote the sun rose, moose all bedded down,

pretty much everything was shot for the day there and so we're like well let's just we'll take naps um try glassing do what we can and i kid you not it was so on the last it was the last two hours before dark we were we got up we're like let's move let's just every single meadow we know of let's go to it and grunt and see if we get something to talk and we got a bull to talk grunting hard and so

We worked him, worked him, worked him, Adam worked him. Adam has a lot of experience calling moose and he's great at it. And, uh,

Um, he called that moose in a 60 yards and I blasted it with a rifle. Holy smokes. And I was like, and then when we, I walked up to the dead moose, I looked at the sun. It's the last day of moose season. The sun is touching the mountains. It is literally the last day, last hour. And I just, like I said, I couldn't be more humbled in a situation like that. Cause I always looked at moose as a stupid, dumb animal. And I'm like, I had a lot of respect for them. They outsmarted us.

multiple different times, you know? And I was just like, man, I can't believe the moose are doing this to us. And, and Adam even said, he's like, this is the hardest I've ever had to work for a moose. Like just a,

get a moose shot. And I'm like, I promise Adam, I'm not a rookie. It seemed easier in the past, but, but then, yeah. Then after that, then Tana, you know, cause Adam, when he was helping me, Tana has to watch the kids and Tana wants a break from the kids. And she's like, I want a caribou. So I'm like, well, I better stay for another week or so. And so I stayed with Tana, um, just

So Adam watched the kids and a lot of bears over there. And we helped her, but we did help her get a caribou. And we kind of had a situation though where it was the, so it was the days that she shot her caribou. We saw him, she wanted to get it with a bow. We belly crawled for several hours to get an archery range.

And we had a little, like there's, in this particular area where the caribou were, it's just flat tundra. There's nowhere to hide. But this one group finally decided to bed

right next to an alder patch. We're like, let's belly crawl to that alder patch. And as soon as we get to that alder patch, we can get up, get up on our knees, get as close as you need to to the caribou, get your arrow and shoot that bull. And because Tana was really selective with caribou, so there was a lot of that we could have killed, but she's like, it doesn't have a bez on this side or doesn't have a shovel. I'm like, Tana, I'd be sticking that bull all day with an arrow. So,

She's a bit of a caribou snob. She's a caribou snob, which is not a bad thing. I think I'm a meal deer snob. She's a caribou snob. We all have, we all have our things. And, uh, well, anyways,

It was a big bull. And it was kind of cool because we were hunting the rut. And you're just kind of seeing the rut take place with caribou, which is really cool. So we're seeing new bulls move in the herds, pushing new bulls out. It's just like hunting elk. It was really cool to watch. And they have these beautiful white manes. And well, anyway, so they were bedded and we had to belly crawl another 30 yards to

And every yard we'd move, it would take five minutes or so. So it was moving really slow. But those cows, they're on alert. And they were just on a little knoll, just enough to where they had some pretty good eyes. And every time we'd move a couple yards, they'd look our way. We'd stop and they'd look away. And I'm like, we will make this work. As soon as we get to the alders, we're in the clear. Yeah.

The caribou just all got up and just started to run. We're like, what? And right beside us, we had no clue it was there. A grizzly runs right past us as we were laying flat in the tundra and is chasing the caribou that we have

that we have spent so many hours in belly crawling and tana's just like give me the gun i want i like at this point just give me a gun i'll shoot the caribou with the gun and uh and i said are you sure like i did the whole are you sure you don't want to do it the bow she's like

Tom, don't question me. Give me the gun. I'm like, okay. Here's the gun. Here you go. And she got up and shot the caribou. And then we're like, oh, shoot. Now we have a caribou that's dead. We have a bear still chasing caribou, trying to get a dead caribou. Oh, yeah. So now we have our heads on a swivel as we're skinning out. But our savior came. Tana sent an in-reach message to Adam. She said, come get us. And...

He came and landed pretty close to the caribou. So we were able to debone it right then and there. Oh no, that no, we didn't debone that one. We kept the bones in. Um, cause yeah, we got the, got the plane right there. So that was nice. And, um, yeah, that makes it easy pack when you have a plane that you can land next to, you know? Um,

But yeah, no. So that then I finally got back home and unfortunately I missed elk season. So I know, but, but I haven't had a moose in a long time. So I'm like, you know, it was a sacrifice.

But I'd say the mistake I made was I purchased the archery tag and I should have got the rifle tag. So, cause now I'm stuck with the archery tag. Right. So I'm like, well, shoot, I should have got the rifle tag. But, um, I ended up having, you know, I'm like, I had to catch up with work anyways in October. So I'm like, I didn't really think I had much time to,

hunt elk with a rifle anyway. So it was, that was pretty much the sacrifice. Well, if I hunt moose this year, I'm not hunting elk. And so I got my moose and I'm super happy. He's a big bull. So yeah, that's awesome. Did you film any of this stuff? Yeah. So it was all on film, the moose and the caribou. And then, well, then I had to go to Alaska to back up. I had to go to Alaska early because Adam had a big bull down. He killed it solo. He worked it up solo, but he's just like,

It's a long hike in and he needs help. And so he's like, Tom, can you come to Alaska a little bit earlier than you're planning to? So I had to do overnight flights to get to Alaska and help Adam finish packing his. So as soon as I stepped foot in Alaska with my Crocs, I was immediately thrown in the bush plane. We were back in moose quarters. Oh, man. And I literally, yeah, to kid you not, went from...

Yeah, Idaho. Yeah, so that... What was it? I think that was September 4th or something. I don't even remember at this point. But yeah, by the time I made it to Alaska, I mean, here I was...

We packed out two rears that night as soon as I arrived. And so, and then we finished, finished packing out the rest of the next day, which we were glad to do. Cause we were like, we have to hustle. There's a big storm coming. And yeah, I think that sums up Alaska though. Man. Sounds like, it sounds like a pretty good trade off. I mean, I love elk hunting, but man, that, that would be a fun, fun trade off. Oh yeah. And the antlers of moose are just so unique and cool, you know, and,

Um, one thing I love with Alaska, it's still like, I still consider it as the last frontier where you can get away from people still, you know, like, and it's getting harder. Of course, I feel like more and more people are discovering it, but I feel comparative to the lower 48. You can, you can get in the no man's land and, and it, and it's, it's nice. It's just, there's a different spirit to it. You know what I mean? Um,

So it's, but yeah, no, I'm back now in the lower 48. Yeah. Um, well hunting pressure. Yeah. Back to normal life. Right. Yeah. Um, so I hear a bunch of background noise. Where are you at? So this is a funny, well, without giving too much detail on my unit, um, I set up a base camp kind of in the Valley next to the town.

And, and so that's why you might hear a little bit of background sound. Um, there is a highway behind me, but, but I thought it was really nice. I was like, this saves a lot of money from spending on a motel or hotel. It just, I just, I did as I paid for a camp spot and I have power and running water. Oh, sweet. So I have a power with a, with a big heater right here. It gets really cold at night. It's been in freezing temperatures at night and

Yeah, I'm toasty in here. And so, and from here, I'm kind of like to where I can get to my areas pretty quick, you know, and then I, what I did, um, well, I guess people can't necessarily, they're not necessarily gonna have a video to watch, but, uh, I packed a smaller tent to, if I have an area where I really want to camp back there, I have a smaller tent that I can, I can pack on my back, you know, and go farther back. But this is kind of like my base camp. This is like

this is where most of my stuff is. Okay. And you're hunting mule deer. I'm going after mule deer. Yes. Yeah. Tomorrow's the first day for your tag. I'm finally starting to feel it. Like it's starting to creep up on me. You know, I've, I've got the, what do you call it? The butter butterflies. I got the butterflies today. Just like I did. I got here a couple of days early to scout, but when I, when I mean scout, it was,

It was more for, I wanted to see where my access points were. I wanted to see where I can get my pickup at. I spent a lot of time e-scouting. I mean, I've been working a lot lately.

to prepare for this hunt and to get all my projects caught up. But every evening I've been on the computer e-scouting and I have, I have three main trail systems that I'm like, one of these trail systems is going to pull, is going to help me get a buck. I know it is, you know, so that's, and, and I felt like I've accomplished my first mission, which was being able to get my pickup to all those sites. Cause I've, I know one thing I know about Colorado is,

There's a lot of these road systems. They look great from e-scouting. And I don't care the clarity of e-scouting, you know, of Google Earth and Onyx or whatever you guys like to use.

You get there and you're like, holy crap, I actually can't get a pickup up this road. It's so bad. Right, right. Well, New Mexico is a lot like that too. It's like, oh yeah, there's a road here and it's open and you get there and it's like washed out 87 times. You know, you have to have a side-by-side to do all the little crossings and stuff. Yeah. And me being solo and as far as I had to drive, I'm like, I didn't want to drive a four-wheeler down here, but now I'm like, there's a part of me that's slightly kicking myself, but

I'm not because I did find a way to get to all the trail systems comfortably with my vehicle. So I'm like, that is a plus. There was one, I kid you not, I was like, oh, I wanted to get to that trail so bad. I'm like, it's just not doable with a pickup. And I just did a little more east going and I found another way in. So I was like, sweet. I was like, woo! Because that was a spot I really wanted to go. But I found some...

We were talking, well, we kind of just talked a little bit about, you know, with the scouting and stuff. And the one thing I really do is I'm, I'm trying to get far away from people as I can. That's like my first step. Okay. I was going to ask you, like when you're going out of state or into an area you're unfamiliar with, what are you looking for? Like, okay, I'm going to go mule deer hunting. So you're like, okay, how, how do I get away from the masses? Yeah.

Yeah. Find a place like that, like get away into a roadless area, I'm assuming. Um, and then, and then go from there. Yeah. So that's pretty much it. So that was the first thing I saw is like, there's a lot of this unit where, and what's great with this unit, there's a lot of deer, which is, which makes me excited just because there's good numbers here. Um, quality, I don't know, but I did just yesterday, just driving around, I saw a

a dozen bucks, which is, I'm not, I'm not used to that. Oh, I'm used to hunting areas where there's very little numbers of mule there and you're putting on a lot of miles on the ground just to see a couple bucks. You know what I mean? And, and so to be able to hunt a unit like this is kind of cool. But the only thing that slightly concerns me is I talked to a lot of guys that have hunted this in the past and were like, God, the quality is just not here though. You know, that's what a lot of them say.

But I've also take the, in my mind, I'm just kind of, I'm just trying to make you, um, put you in my own mind and how I, how it works. Um, but for me, I'm like, well, are they going far enough back to, to the big bucks? Are they getting away from the hunting pressure to find the big bucks? And so for me, when they, when people are telling me, oh, expect between 130 to a hundred inch or 160 inch class muleys. I'm like, um, I'm not,

I'm not going to go by that right now. I'm just like, I'm just going to pretend I didn't hear that. I'm going to go after 180. And then every day, a couple inches will drop. So it's like, okay, so first day of season, 180 inch buck. Second day of season, a 178 inch buck. And it's...

Maybe the last day of season, maybe it is a 160. Oh yeah. Yeah. I kind of do that with elk too. And, and this year was a tough year. So, you know, first day it's like, oh yeah, nothing but a nice six point. And,

Uh, by the second day, the spike walks out and well, sorry, dude. Bam. You're done. You walked out on the wrong day. Yeah, he did. He did. It was a bad day for him and a really good day for me. But, um, so how, no, when you say you're getting far back, are you like one mile, two mile, eight miles? Are you like, or whatever, you know, it takes like, okay. You know, average people are good. Let's say they're going a mile or two.

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So let's just say this. So the first spot in my mind, while I have all this energy built up and I've been driving, I'm going to go to the hardest spot first. And it is a good plan, right? And me, when I'm getting older now, I used to hit just hard every day, really long miles. And now I'll do every other day where I'll go one really hard day and one lighter day.

One really hard day, one lighter day. And so tomorrow is going to be a really hard day. Mapping it, it looks like it's seven and a half miles back. But what I like is there's not a lot of elevation gain, but I'm just going to get up early in the morning. Like I said, I have a lot of energy built up. I had the past couple of days to sleep in. I got a lot of sleep, so I'm just going to get up really early.

and there's a big beautiful place where I can glass from and get eyes on deer. And in my mind, when I looked at that spot on the map,

Like it just, it just, you know, we all have those spots like with you elk hunting, or it's just like, man, that area just looks elky. Like that spot on the mountain just looks like if I was a big monster mule deer, I'd be right there in that opening, you know, away from all the hunting pressure. But the downside is there's a lot of horses back there. And so I made the initiative of getting in contact with them and asking them, what hunters are you packing back there? Am I...

is it if I go back there is it just going to be am I going to be just you know walking on top of people and the response I got was actually good and so the the outfitter told me hey no we just do a bunch of drop dance and they're just they're just elk hunters so you're honestly going to be the only mule deer hunter back there oh wow so I'm like sweet and they're like you're not going to interfere with us do what you're going to do kill a big buck and and so I'm like alright sounds like a plan and

And they even said, you know, I, like I said, this is a unit I've never even hunted before. And, but they told me there's big bucks back there. So I'm like that even, that even clarifies my mind of that spot even more. And so it is my day one spot. So that's what I'm going to do tomorrow. Um, but yeah, no, I, I like to get away from people. Um, you know, I know a lot of people like to call and find people with advice and I do that too, but it's like,

The one thing that always goes through my mind is if somebody else knows about the spot, then who else knows about the spot too, right? And, you know, big bucks are going to get big by avoiding hunting pressure for long periods of time. And so those are the places I want to find. Right. Yeah. It can be hard in Colorado. Yeah, very hard. It's a popular place for people to go and, you know, and maybe people, before you get there, you know, people shoot,

The deer or, you know, in the last few years, they, they just don't have an age class in the place you want to go. Like, you know, they just don't grow old enough. Um, so yeah, I get it. You're trying to find those places where the deer can be undisturbed. They can grow a lot. They can grow old enough. And, um, you know, sometimes that's just further out than some people are willing to walk. Most people are willing to walk.

Right. Yeah. So, okay. I got a question. Um, this, this question is our Pendleton whiskey, um, question and answer for, for the episode. And, uh, this, uh, question is going to be a little bit, uh, self-serving, um, because this is a question for me. Normally it's, um, a question from our listeners, but, uh, uh,

I'm just going to say, I'm not your best backcountry mule deer guy. And here's the dilemma. Every time I go mule deer hunting, I can't find mule deer. I'm covered up in elk.

Right? Now, if I were elk hunting, I'd probably see nothing but deer. But every time I go mule deer, I just got home from a mule deer hunt here in Idaho. You know, I've got quite a ways back. The access was pretty good. But I'm back there and I had some good intel. Phelps had just hunted there and he's like, yeah, you should go this spot, this spot. And I get there. Man, I'm just not turning deer up. And then I start thinking, okay, maybe...

Maybe I'm just not good at glassing. I can't pick out deer, but then I start, I'm glassing and I see a little tiny, I'm like at like 800 yards. I, I pick out a little weasel running across the ground, you know? And I'm like, I'm seeing little things like that. I'm seeing a, uh, an owl in a tree. I'm like, I'm picking out things. Like, I think I'm sharp eyed enough, but I'm just missing these deer, but I'm not seeing the deer, but doggone it elk.

Like the last, the last day I was there, I woke, I was woke up in my tent to bugling an hour before daylight and I get up and these elk, it was an incredible day. Like, you know, this is, I'm asking about mule deer, but these elk rutted, they bugled on their own more than I had any. I didn't have this good of action in September. And this was, uh, the 23rd of October. And these bulls are screaming all day. I watched three different bulls breed cows, uh,

And these are five point bull to two of them were five points. Well, one was a four by five. One was a five by five. And one was a spike. I seen the spike jump up and breed a cow too. And I'm just like, what the heck is going on with these elk? Number one, but where the heck are the dang deer? This one night I hiked out.

And, uh, glass, glass till almost dark. And I get back to my, my, um, I can't write it right at dusk. Like it's too, too dark to shoot, but I get back to, I didn't see nothing. Get back to my tent and there's two mule deer does standing next to my tent. It's like insult to injury. Right. But anyway, I'm not turning up deer. I'm turning up elk or, you know, maybe nothing at all. So, um, is it like, am I just in the wrong spots? I see tracks everywhere.

I'll see tracks everywhere. Deer. You'll see deer. A lot of deer tracks everywhere, but just catching them there at the right time. Maybe I'm just not on the right vantage point. I do know like one area I glassed all morning and I didn't turn anything up. But once I dove in a bit, there were some places I couldn't see that I couldn't glass up and there were deer tracks everywhere in there. So is it just the matter of like finding the right glassing point?

Um, the right elevation band. What, what, what, where am I going wrong here? Well, that's, that's a great question. And you know, I, there's areas I hunt where elk and mule deer seem to run the same areas. Um, and, and there's vice versa where sometimes it almost seems like

where there's elk, there's not mule deer, where there's mule deer, there's not elk. Um, I've been told by multiple people in, in, in the past that they noticed that when there's more elk numbers, that'll, it'll drop the mule deer numbers a little bit, you know, but for me, I, a lot of the mule deer that I hunt and kill are, are in elk habitat. And so I'm, I'm hunting around elk all the time. Um, there's obviously there is, I mean, you can look at any mountain range with mule deer and

And you can put a big buck just about anywhere on that mountain. But there's always those places where, like I was mentioning, where it's just like really mealy. And what I mean by that, I've always considered like mule deer a sheep with antlers. They love steep. They feel safe out there. You know, naturally you see the big ears. They have really good eyes and they're

you know, sometimes there's a misconception, especially with younger bucks, when they get shot, people are like, oh, they're stupid. They just stand out in the opening. That's like their actual natural instinct is to see from a distance and see their predation coming from afar. And, but they also have those spots too. They're very adaptable. Like, you know, I've seen it with hunting pressure where all of a sudden the deer realize, well, they're not safe in those openings.

And after a couple of days, you don't see them anymore. And they now they're timber, they're timber animals. And so now you're going to have to focus on that. Um, but primetime is really important to me. Um, you know, the question you ask, it really depends on weather and what the weather's doing.

But prime time is so important to me with mule deer hunting, especially when you have hot, sunny days, when you have a consistent cool at night, warm in the day, you know, these deer are, they have a bedding area. They have a feeding area, especially the bigger bucks, especially, and if it's before the rut, um, they're going to put themselves in a place where they feel safe. And I've noticed not just with big bucks, but big bull elk too. They,

safety is more of a priority for them than a food source. And so you'll be in these bases, just like elk, right? Where there's all this feed. And you're like, why aren't the mule deer down here? Where all the feed is. Well, they don't feel safe there.

They need this. I've talked about this before, the groceries, shelter and the safety. They they need to feel safe. They need to be able to have an escape route, too. So when I'm looking at e-scouting, sure, like I I can look at the top of this basin and you'll see rocks, rock cliffs as far as I can see up the canyon. Then there might be a little timber patch there.

Well, if a big mealy buck goes in that little timber patch, he's kind of stuck there, right? He doesn't have an escape route because he goes to the rocks here. He's going to get killed if he goes in the rocks here. So there has to be a balance there of the grocery shelter and the safety. And like I said, a big buck, the safety is the biggest priority. And they're always expecting predation to come from below them. That's one thing I always look at.

Secondly, they just like a good escape route. So they're going to pick a spot where if a predator is coming through, they know how to get out. They can get out of the country without being realized. And you got a mule deer buck that's seven, eight years old. He's smart. He's actually...

Like I said, people think muleys are stupid, but that's if you kill young bucks. An old buck is no different than hunting an old bull elk, an old whitetail. They adapt. They learn there's a reason why they're alive when they're eight years old. You get that seven, eight-year-old class, you got a mature muley on your hands. That's what I like to pursue. You will find younger bucks in those areas where there's a lot of feed. Right?

You can get the lower elevation. You'll find young bucks, young does, and you may not find the big bucks there because, frankly, it's not a safe place for them. Right, right. Did that answer your question? Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, I think...

Like timing too. Like when, when, when Phelps was there, you know, they were hunting, they were seeing a lot of deer, but there was a lot of other people. And then I feel like sometimes by the time I like on this, on this particular trip, by the time I got in there, those deer had been disturbed a bit. You know, there'd been quite a few people through there. There were, I seen guys on horses. Uh, there'd been dirt bikes through. I feel like at a certain point, those deer are just like, yeah, we've seen enough. We're going to just hang super tight. Yeah.

You know, they're not going to, they're not going to expose themselves unless you knew exact the right little exact open patch at the right time. And the, you know, the first light or the last light of night, you might catch them, but you're not going to just see them out on a big open hillside. Is that kind of, that's kind of like, or they may just move out of that and just move onto the backside of that little basin and where they don't get disturbed.

Yeah. So now they're looking for a more safer place, right? So the next drainage over on the backside of this basin, the next drainage over, maybe there's no trails in it and now they're not disturbed anymore. Maybe that's where a guy should be looking more so than on the side where there's more access. That's exactly what I do. Yeah. I'll give another story. So this was...

2019, a friend of mine who never killed a mule deer, he drew a mule deer tag in Southern Idaho. And I was actually, that was going to be also the first year I ever hunted Colorado too. And I was like on my way down, I was like, well, how about this? Like, I'll help you.

Around this time I was like you can go down whenever you want But this is the time I can help you the last day or the last week of your season And I was like because that's the time I can also from there in southern Idaho I can go to Boise or not Boise, but go to um Um, kind of you did I did have to drive through Boise Boise Salt Lake and then into Colorado Um, but I can make my route through it, you know, so anyways, my first stop was his hunt and

You know, we already had a couple weeks of hunting pressure, right? Just like what you're saying. So where I was first thinking we were going to see deer, we were not seeing deer. Not a lot. But we were looking on the maps. I'm like, well, as soon as this road ends right here, there's a lot of side-by-side trails. As soon as this road ends here, there's a couple draws that just look really undisturbed. And it's something that I would personally think that someone would overlook. It was funny. As we put in...

At that time, we were four and a half, five miles in and we were just, we were hiking. Another time I should have packed a side-by-side or four-wheeler didn't, but we were crossing from, we were crossing, you know, side-by-side trail, side-by-side trail, just hiking. And we're seeing side-by-sides just driving up and down, glassing. We're just like,

Man, this is, I don't know. This is going to work. You know what I mean? But in my mind, like I said, I was looking at that map. I was like, if, if I was a mule deer and I had a couple of weeks of hunting pressure, this is where I'd go. And as soon as we left the road system and we got in that part of that section of that unit where there was no roads, groups of does appeared.

groups of does. And this was late October, the next drainage over a bachelor group of bucks. And I handed, I, it was my gun and it's all dialed. So I trust it. I handed it to my friend. I said, he's never killed a mule in his life. He smokes a buck and this thing it's, it's lopsided, but even as being lopsided as it is, it still scored close. It was high one eighties, almost one. Wow. And I just told them, yeah. And I told them, I'm like, I'm just letting you know now

that you may never kill a buck this big again. Buck of a lifetime. Yeah. It was like, this is your first, like, this is your first ever mule deer. Like a lot of experienced mule deer hunters don't kill bucks like this. And he was super grateful. He was really excited. And,

you know, with two guys to bone meal there, we were able to get it out pretty easy. We were six. We were, I think, yeah, we were a total of six miles back when we had to pack it out. Wow. Wow. Um, well, that's another question. Um, I was going to ask earlier or later, but, um,

A boned out mule deer. Um, if you're solo, can you expect to like, let's say you're, you're day tripping it, right? Can you bone out a big mule deer buck and pack that one trip? Are you thinking, eh, I might want to two trip it. They're pretty big animal. It's heavy. It's like, it's like an elk rear. Okay. So that's 70, 80 pounds. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Give or take to, you know, and it depends on the unit. Cause some units, they don't require you to pack the rib meat, you know, and some units do. And, and so, um, I, I typically like there's like, especially in Idaho, there's like no rib meat on a deer. And I'm like, I don't want to mess with ribs. Um, so, but I'll pack everything else out obviously. But, uh, but yeah, it's, I've done it where like, let's say, um,

It's just one of those days. I don't feel like packing heavy. I'm like, this is going to be a two day trip. Like, but Sundays I'm like, I don't want to be back here again. I'm a long ways back. Let's take as many breaks as I have to. I'm getting this whole thing out in one trip. I've done it. It's, it's comparable to it. Like I said, it's about comparable to an elk quarter, like a, like a big rear. Um, I would say, um, but if you're wanting to cape and stuff too, like I did that, I, I packed not last year. So last year I killed a big buck. Um,

And they weren't paying much for capes. And I was like, it's half the trip, half the hikes uphill. And I'm like, I'm leaving the cape. Just, just, just the meat, just the meat and the, and the skull, you know? And so, um, but yeah, you can do it if you're, if you're dedicated enough, you can do it one trip, you know, it just,

It's extra weight. After packing moose quarters, I tell you what, an elk quarter is so light. So I packed trout. Travis killed a big bull the other day. Yeah. And you saw that? I saw that. I was so jealous. Yeah, it's a giant. But that quarter, I was just like...

is this really a rear? Like it, after packing a rear moose, I was like, I can actually manhandle this quarter. I can pick it up and put it in the bag. A moose, like I'm, it is so hard to manhandle those moose quarters. I also would not use a QU bag for a moose quarter either. Like I've,

Like a lot of, a lot of Alaskans use the Barneys, but I'm sure everybody has their own special packs, but a key bag gets me through with mule deer and elk any day, just fine. But for, but for moose, I need a Barneys, like a big metal frame bag. And they got good, like you can get the weight high too. They kind of have a big shelf where you can pick the weight up high and stuff. So that makes it nice. My little, you've seen my sister, she's, she's a short little girl and

she throws moose quarters that are just as tall as she is. And she just,

She's tough. She's amazing. She's tough. Yeah. So, but yeah, no, yeah, I guess I'm, I'm answering every question very slowly and in detail. I love it. I love it. How many days do you think, you know, to, if, if somebody wants to be a successful, um, mule deer hunter, can you just weekend warrior it? Or if you want to, like, if you really want to get into this, you want to take like a 10 day trip, how many days should you really expect to,

expect to take off to go on a mule deer trip and and like how many days do you expect to be in colorado where you're at so with this this season it's it's a very it's called second season um which which this season kind of goes throughout a lot of states so i'm not giving out any detail with this but it's about an eight day season and so it's short um so i'm going to stay the whole time um

For me, I think this is the most important thing for hunters to know. And we don't, and I don't think people think about this often, but I, before every hunt, I try to prepare myself financially, right? Like I try to get all my T's crossed and I's dotted. If there's bills I need to pay, I try to get those done. You know, the last thing I want to do when I go on a trip is feel like half of myself's at home. Right.

Like, it's really hard for me to focus. I mean, for sure. I still like to, you know, consistently anytime I'm in service, call my wife and kids, tell them how much I love them and stuff.

But when I'm out there hunting, I don't want to feel like, oh, shoot, I have all these work obligations at home. I don't have all this stuff I need to get done at home. Like that stuff will make a guy come home early. You know what I mean? And so, and, and also not be prepared either. So not bringing everything you need, not, you know, not having a comfortable camp, you know, like, like for me, what I do is like, and I'll rough a camp, but I'll tell you what,

I'll tell you what I did on this trip in which we kind of talked about already. So this right here is, so I said, this is like a base camp right here. Got my wall tent and I have power here, which is nice. Yeah. I just, I picked a campsite in my unit and, um, close to the town. I can get groceries and stuff. And then at least in this area, in this unit, I have that luxury, right? Not all units have that.

But now I also have a small little qu tent. So if I have somewhere I want to spend a couple of days in the back country and not have to wake up like crazy early in the morning to hike four to five miles to get to where I'm actually a mule deer.

I can actually pack a little day camp, you know, back there and sleep and then hike. Tomorrow, I've got a lot of energy to burn off. So I'm just going to do a one day, seven miles in, seven miles out. At least that's how the trail goes. But you know how it is. You start taking your own routes and stuff. It's probably going to end up being 15 or 16 miles by the end of the day. Oh, definitely. But...

I got energy. Like I said, I've just been, I've been scouting and a lot of my scouting has just been running road systems and stuff and trying to find trail heads to, you know, seeing if I can access the trail heads. And, but no, I'm looking forward to tomorrow. I'll be doing a lot of hiking. I'll be burning a lot of energy. Um, you were asking earlier about on average, how far you can hike. I'd say, uh, how far do you expect to hike? I'd say, you know, it depends on the area.

Um, but for day hunting for day hiking, I like places between four to five miles in and four to five miles out. Like if you start getting a little farther than that, you kind of want to typically I'll like to camp it out and just wake up and not, and be fully rested as a, you know, as I'm starting to, to hunt mule deer. Um, but like I said, tomorrow, I'm just going to try to do it all one day though. It's just going to,

Oh, it's going to be a big day tomorrow. Looking forward to it though. All I need is one day. I just need one deer. So, Oh yeah. Yeah. And if you have to, you can double trip it. You can make two trips. Yeah. I'll make two trips out of it. So that's not a problem at all. Like I said, I got time. I, so like I said, I, I like to financially prepare myself and it's not just like, it doesn't mean you have everything paid off. Just, you have everything, all your ducks in line before you leave your house. Otherwise you're going to feel like you're missing things at home. I

I said, if you rough it too much, then I feel like a lot of guys, you got to know your own self too and what you can handle. Cause if you're roughing out too much and you realize you can't handle that, that also might make you come home early. So, so don't rough it as hard. Take your time. You know, I'm the type of guy, like I, I can live like a nomad. I can just, you know, I can spend weeks in the bush without having any cell service and I'll be okay.

And, but, but there is something to be said about having a nice base camp where you're comfortable, got good food and then go from there, you know, especially when you're hunting out of town. Right. Right. I found if I'm, uh, let's, let's say like this September, um, we did a lot of backpack hunting, uh, bivy hunting and well, spike camp, uh,

After being in there four or five days, man, you kind of get chewed up and sped out a little bit by the mountain and the elk, you know, and if you can come out and take a shower or like we didn't have showers, but we could jump in. We jumped in the creek, right? And washed and cleaned up and like just had some normal food instead of freeze dried food.

It's like a really good reset, like just getting clean, getting refocused, like, okay, you know, maybe had self-service called home, made everything sure everything was good. Everything is good. And it's almost like, okay, round two, we're just fresh as a, fresh as a Daisy again. Just that means a lot being able to have that kind of a,

a backup spot or a place to like kind of recharge, clean up and then go, go again without, you know, if you didn't have that, you may, you may just throw in the towel and say, you know what? Heck with it. I'm going to go home. Yeah. Well, and probably the longest I've ever stayed out is because of a wall tent too. When you have a wall tent, like for me, it's staying dry. Like, you know, I can,

The camping in September is actually, it just depends on the area too, if it's like really rough weather. But if it's like nice weather, I can stay a very long time, you know, hunting in September. But with a lot of weather and stuff, that does wear on you, you know, and it doesn't matter if there's good weather or bad weather. A wall tent with a wood stove, man, I tell you what, that's a game changer. So if you're able to pack in with llamas or horses and mules, or if you guys use goats,

Use that. Utilize that if you're going far back. I will tell you right now, you'll be really comfortable at camp.

you know, pack some good meals, like space it out, space those mountain houses or peak refill or whatever. Yeah. Space out those freeze dries meal. I do my own freeze dried. Well, when I say I do my own, I, I, I make the list of things I want and I give it to my wife. I'm like, make that for me, please. And so she makes them, packages them for me. And so I just give her the ingredients. And so she makes me the meals. And so I got,

Plenty of free drive meals right now. And it's good to feel prepared, you know, like, you know, on this hunt, I mean, I, you know, you never know it's a hunt. So I may come out without a meal there, but the thing is I'm, I'm prepared on this hunt. I have everything I need. I feel comfortable at camp.

And I've done enough e-scouting enough to where even like my brother today, I was talking to my brother. He's like, hey, I have another lead for you of somebody that may have hunted that unit in the past. I'm like, honestly, it doesn't matter what they tell me. It's great to have more information. But at this point of the amount of scouting I've done, I don't think I need any more information. Like, I feel like I'm ready.

I just need to put in the miles. I just need to hunt. Like you can, I can litter this whole unit with pins and where there's once a big mule deer once lived, you know, but it's dead now. So I can't kill that mule deer anymore. You can't, you can't chase gut piles. You can't chase gut pile. And, you know, like I said, the more hunting pressure in an area, the less age class you have. So, um, but

That being said, I feel ready on this hunt and I'm excited. The nervousness is kind of gone, I'd like to say. I'm just ready to throw my pack on. I'm just itching to hike, but I don't want to push everything out. Some of the areas where I want to go, I feel like if I go in there now, I'll push the muleys out. So I'm just like, just go opener. Don't push anything out and go from there. I think that's smart.

Would you say, so, so prime time that's first light, last light, um, midday, are you still like just picking apart, like looking in the shadows of trees, tree wells, and just looking everywhere like with a spotter, just trying to, okay, I haven't spotted the buck I want, but I think there's probably some other deer bedded on this hillside or these little clumps of timber or whatever you can glass into. Are you just glass into those midday, just trying to like find something, um,

Or are you kind of recharging the batteries a little bit, you know, and just taking a break, taking a nap? Are you hiking? Are you like, are you, are you busting through timber? Just like trying to like maybe jump one. What are you doing? Are you,

that midday so if it's not prime time so it's usually that's a that's a lot of great that's a great question and i think it depends on the weather it depends on the habitat like if it's an area where there's just like there's only one little opening them for them to feed in let's say like and it's going to be hot in the day i mean to me the writing's on the wall right especially if it's early season mule deer um and when i mean early i'm talking like still in october um

I might take a nap. I might just rest up, you know, especially if you take a lot of time off the mule deer hunt. I want to like I'm trying to utilize the best days possible on the hunt. Like if there's a good weather day, I'm like, this is the day I want to put in all my energy. We've all seen plenty of gadgets and fads come and go. But here's one product that stood the test of time. Seafoam motor treatment.

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And a good weather day, is that kind of like an overcast day, maybe a drizzle day? Yeah, a cold day, could be a weather day. One thing I really, I like to hunt, not just, I love hunting in the weather. I just hate dealing with technology in the weather. So us with our filming and stuff, it's just a hassle dealing with a video camera. But man, if I didn't have to deal with the video camera, I love hunting outdoors.

On a stormy day when the storms are going on and off throughout the day, it makes like they'll, they'll bed down feed bed down feed throughout the day. And you're just like, you're getting all day activity. Another thing I like is right after a massive storm, um,

And it just cools everything down. They'll just pound the next couple of days, just hard. I'm like, this is all my energy I've saved up for. And you know, it's the same. I see with elk hunting too, where you'll see a storm, like you look at the forecast, you see a big storm coming and it's like in the next couple of days, it's going to be super hot. I'm like, honestly, I'm not going to waste my time in these really hot days. Like I'll, I'll hunt the prime time. I'll hunt the evening, but

I'll hunt all day on those after that storm hits. That's where I'm going to put all my energy in. People burn themselves out before the hunting gets good. And so I like to pace myself sometimes. So I'm not trying to be like a lazy hunter, but sometimes you like to pace yourself.

Um, to say that you can't glass up a mule deer midday in the hot day. I'm not saying you can't. Yes. Sometimes there are glassing, you know, if you have nothing else to do, then put your eyes in the glass and scan the whole hillside. Look under every, you know, under every tree, every nook and cranny, every, every rock, you know, but.

My time is best spent in prime time on those hot days. And, you know, I see in the weather too, we're going to have some storms next week and I'm just like, bring it, bring the storms. And I'm looking forward to it. I really love a snow background too. So that's always helpful. A lot of different techniques. I mean, it's all scenario based, right? That's why it's really hard to,

It's really hard to say if you do a, B and C, this is what you're going to get on D. Um, you know, hunting's very, uh, especially hunting mule deer. It's, it's one of those things you have to adapt to, right?

You know, and I always wish I can give a direct answer for everything because it's like, you know, you're like, okay, in this scenario, Tom, what do I do? I'm like, well, it depends. What's the weather doing? Because if the weather's doing this, I'm not going to do that. If it's doing this, then I will do that. You know, in the rut, I will hunt the rut differently than I'll hunt pre-rut.

right? So right now at this time, it's not the right. And so I'm going to hunt the, I'm going to find bucks. I'm going to ignore does because the bucks are not where the does are. Maybe some younger bucks, but if I see a doe, I'm like, Oh, there's could be a big buck nearby. No, I'm going to ignore every doe I see. And I'm just going to go where I think a big buck's going to go. When the rut kicks in, I, my, my gears change. I am

Like, I'm not going where I think a big buck's going to go. I'm going where the does are because that big buck is going to make his routes and he's eventually going to connect to those does. Right. Yeah. He leaves his fortress of solitude and then he goes on the prowl for those does. Exactly. We were talking about that safety that they like those big bucks lose that all of a sudden they're in the rut.

That is your window. It's the same with elk. That is your window to kill a big bull elk is during the rut. Same thing with the mealy buck. That's the time when they, their guard is down. They still can be skittish, but their guard is down. They're focused on does and are focused on breeding and you can catch a big buck.

You know, and the, for him, the wrong place is the wrong time for you. The right place, right time. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. But I love tracking bucks in the snow. It's fun. Yeah. You've, you've had some really good success. I've watched some videos. You've got some crazy videos on YouTube in case our listeners haven't seen Tom and his family. They have a stuck in the rut, a YouTube channel and yeah.

Man, there's so many good, incredible videos of all species, but there's some really cool ones on mule deer too. Yes. Thank you. I'd say in my family, because like I said, Tana...

Ken is a mule deer slobber. Adam's a moose snob. Travis is the elk snob. I'm like, I'm an elk. Like I, you know, and our whole family, we'll hunt everything, but everybody has their own animal that they just like really gravitate to and hunting. And for me, I mean, wolves, I got into wolf hunt just because I was a pissed off elk hunter. Right. And so that's how I got in the wolf hunt. But muleys, there's just something about muleys that I've always loved. And, and muleys, that's my, I mean,

I'm a mealy snob. That's, that's, that's like, you know, and I wouldn't say there's something about the magic of September and beagle and elk, uh,

But there's also something about the magic and chasing a big rut and mealy buck with a swelled neck in the snow, in the rocks. Just looking back, I always have this image in my head of a big monster buck just looking back at me in the rocks. And that's just like, as I'm hiking and I know I have a long ways to go, it's like, how do you occupy yourself in that long hike? I just, that image just replays in my head.

over and over and over again, just on repeat of that big buck just around the corner on the next drainage, you know, and, and that's what keeps my blood going. I love it. I don't need caffeine. So I have to ask you this, cause I know I have this, it's like an internal monologue and,

And this plays throughout the year and of course more intense in September. But I get this internal monologue, this little voice inside my head. It's my own voice. But it's like, got to kill a big bull, got to kill a big bull, got to kill a big bull, got to find a big bull. Like this little thing in my head, it's like on repeat. And it's almost like your little vision of the big mule deer buck.

Um, is that kind of, do you have that internal monologue that says that same stuff to you? It's worse when I'm solo because I actually start saying it slightly out loud. I'm like, if somebody heard me, I think I'm a crazy person. I know I do the same. Like if I'm by myself, I was, yeah, I mutter it. I was driving, right. I was driving and I was, I'm just like, you can do this, Tom. You can kill a big bug. I was saying it out loud. And I'm just like, if somebody was sitting with me next to the seat or just like,

what? Dude, you're, you need to calm the freak down or, or, you know, like what's wrong with this guy? What's wrong with this guy? Okay. Well, I didn't know if I was a weirdo and I was like, um, no, I don't know what you're talking about. So it's good. Other people have this stuff going inside their head. And I wonder about, you know, all of our listeners who are dedicated hunters, if they have that same little internal monologue, or maybe sometimes they mutter or mumble to themselves, that same kind of stuff. Like, Oh yeah, I got to find the big buck. Where's that? Where's the big pole. I got to get it.

could like i think mule deer too so like elk hunt and stuff is one of those animals i like to hunt as a group with other people and stuff you know um and it could with post rut elk and then also with just hunt muleys there's something to be said i love the solo part of it and um you know there's a lot of ways you can prepare for a hunt you can you can prepare yourself physically right but

I'm going back to preparing yourself mentally. For me, I know some guys that are just really good in shape, that are really in shape. And I'll use my little brother, for example, Trevor. He's really in shape and he's a very avid elk hunter. So just not to confuse, I have my older brother, Travis, and my little brother, Trevor. Trevor is a very avid elk hunter and he's very avid in a lot of other hunts, but mule deer is one of those animals he never really got into. And so he's physically in shape to kill a mule deer.

but he just like doesn't put in the time. Right. And not, not a diss on your brother if you're listening, but, uh, um, he's a good hunter. Like everybody in the family is, but like, and even, even Travis and even my brother-in-law, Adam, they all say like, dude, like Travis is a little bit more muley hunter that, you know, with me, but, you know, Adam says, he's just like, dude, I just can't do what you do with mule deer. Like,

Just putting in the time, you know, like with me at least. And he's not that mad at him. He's not that mad at the mule there to put in that amount of time and effort. You know, he's like that with moose. Right. And, and Travis, like I said, he's more of like elk, like elk is one of those things. He just feels like that's his fix. Like he has to kill his elk, you know? And me, that's my mule there. I'm like, I have to get a mule there this year. I have two mule there tags, but I'm like, at least one of them needs filled and it has to be on a big buck.

that's in my head, you know? Um, and also when, and I'm not designated, but I, I, I'm okay. I'm just going to, I'm just going to speak, just, just say what I'm going to say. And, uh, you know, a lot of people say that it's about, it's just about the whole experience of the hunt. Um, just imagine anyone playing a sport. They imagine an NFL player saying, I'm just here to have a good time. Yeah.

No, they're not there for that. They're on a mission, right? They're there for a win. They're there for a win. When I go mule deer hunting and hunt any animal, I'm on a mission. My mission is to kill. Now, what if I don't kill?

Like, and then I'll reflect back on the experience and I'll say, you know, still, I learned a lot on that hunt. What can I do better? So I don't make the same mistakes, right? Like, I'm not going to go out of the hunt, not learn something. I'm not going to say I come out every, you know, out of every hunt successfully, but when I go on a hunt, I'm on a mission. I didn't travel away from my family for this many days. It's, it's an eight day hunt, but I'm

I've been down here for a couple of days already. And then the drive back is a long drive. And so, you know, there's a lot of time I'm away from the family. Once again, I'm not here just for, oh, I just, I'm here for take a picture of the sunset. No, I'm not here for a sunset photo. I'm here for a big mealy buck. And I would love to take a photo of a big mealy buck.

With a sunset in the background, that would be nice. With you in it. With me in it, exactly. No, no. Not someone else, but me in it. Yeah. I get that mindset too, you know? Yeah, you know, of course we love the whole experience of hunting and being in the woods and just being immersed in it. I mean, who doesn't, you know? But you can...

you could kind of get those same fixes if you just wanted to go on hikes in the summertime, just being out, you know, in beautiful places in the woods and the weather's probably a little nicer and it might even be a little funner, um, without the pressure of killing. But, um, I, I'm the same way. I want to, I'm, I'm, I want to not sure I'm showing up to notch my tag. I want to, I want to bring home an elk. I want to bring home a deer or whatever, but, um,

I can see your point though, too, is like, yeah, I have that same mindset or feeling when I go elk hunting, maybe not so much mule deer hunting. I'm not as maybe driven or as, as like mad at the deer. Um, I always give Phelps a hard time. Why are you so mad at these deer, these bears? But, um, but, uh, but I, I, I do understand that whole mindset. Yeah.

Um, which I can appreciate. So we're, we're about out of time. I wanted to talk, uh, quiz you a little bit, um,

So you've, you've, you've talked here for an hour about mule deer hunting and stuff. You actually have a, a hunting course on how to hunt mule deer that you've, you've built designed. And can you talk about that a little bit? Yes, I can. And, you know, for the information we've shared today is honestly just like a sliver of what you can learn on that mule deer masterclass. I did this online course. It's been going for now. I think it's,

Has it been three years? I think I've had this course now for three years. I update it. I put new information in it every single year. At the end of mule deer season, I have a lot more new content. When I post a hunt on YouTube, I would do it for the entertainment. I don't really show the whole process when...

on the Mueller Masterclass, I show the whole process. I show from e-scouting to arriving to showing what I do and finding the bucks. I said, most of these hunts, you know, as much as I want to feel like people are giving me waypoints, that's not really how I'm finding deer. Like I said, I try to hunt deer that don't have any hunting pressure. And so I'm out hunting

going in places where there hasn't been a gut pile in a while. And, and I'm trying to create a new gut pile with an old, with an old mature mule deer and I'm hunting. And, and I guess a couple of questions that I've had,

to answer, you know, because it's kind of a similar one is, does it work in all terrains? And I'd say, yes, it does. You know, when I, there was a time when I started hunting sagebrush country mule deer, the first time in my head I ever thought was, these are a different mule deer than what I'm used to hunting. I'm hunting heavy timber bucks and in the high mountains and not this flat country in the desert. Well, I've come to find out they're the same deer. It's just their habitat's different.

That's the only thing that's different. They're the same deer. If you threw a big old timber buck in the sagebrush, he's going to eventually adapt to the sagebrush terrain. He's going to act like any other sagebrush mule deer. Vice versa, you throw a sagebrush mule deer up in the heavy mountains, he's going to act the same. Some migrations are far like Wyoming where you get so much snow, if the deer stayed, they died, right? Some areas don't get as much snow, so they

the man the mule is pulled to the base of the mountain instead of making this hundred mile trick you know maybe it's as simple of just dropping some elevation some areas don't get snow at all right and so um so in the mule deer master class what i do is i try to help people understand the mule deer itself and so that's kind of the first thing i do is i i we teach and i'm using this not just on my own knowledge

but it's knowledge from other experienced mule deer hunters too. And I'm talking like old timers, guys that I've looked up to for years who taught me how to hunt mule deer. These are guys that are, they're in their seventies and they're too old to hike. And they kind of live through us. They see the big mules I kill and it just brings them joy because they're like, they, they know they're the, they're responsible for teaching me these things and these hunting tactics. And, um,

And so, I'm saying when I created this Mule Deer Masterclass,

Remember, it's not just my life experience, but it's several years, several generations of experience in hunting mule deer bucks. And so this is from covering... And I cover throughout the year from shed hunting to scouting in the summers, to hunting in the fall, from September hunting, October, November, and even December hunting. If you guys have a unit where it's a post-rut mule deer hunt. So we cover everything.

everything mule deer

And, and as you guys know, too, is I have, if anyone who's followed a stocking rut, you would know that we hunt heavy timber a lot too. And so, which is a completely different tactic than most mule deer hunters know. It is hunting timber, hunting close range to these muley bucks. Um, you know, for me, I'm either hunting, I'm either glassing for a long range shot at six to 700 yards, or I'm shooting a mule deer like last year. I'm hunting, I was hunting an area where the mountain was, uh,

90% timber, you know, and as soon as the snow gets deep in the above tree line, above that above tree line, then they just, they pull the timber. Right. And you're timber hunting. There's no glassing, you know?

Um, maybe a little glassing, which I explained in the video and you're, but you're doing a lot of observation. You're, you're, you're observing scat, you're observing tracks, you know? Um, the one thing I teach about tracks is, you know, tracks always tell a story, you know, when you're, when you're elk hunting in September, same thing, you're seeing a herd of cows, you see a bull track.

You're seeing what's going on. You're seeing a story right there and you're trying to put the story together and what they're doing. Are they feeding? Are they just passing through? Are they bedding down? You're trying to find everything. The tracks tell a story. A rub tells a story. Trying to find out if it's a rub line that muleys frequently pass or is it simply just a random rub that a buck made.

You know? Um, yeah, I teach about rub lines. I teach about calling a lot of, how many people do you hear of calling mule deer? Um, I can count on one hand and only use a couple of the fingers. Not very many people call mule deer. Yeah. And I've, and I've killed quite a few call and believe it or not the bull or the buck I called him last year, I called it and it was using, I was using that Phelps, uh, phone call. Oh yeah. Yeah. It was money, man.

Brought that buck right in. It was awesome. So yeah, it does work, but I've also used grunt tubes. I've rattled muleys. I did rattle. If you watch last year's YouTube episode, um, it shows me I rattled a pretty nice, uh, he needed one more year. He's about a three-year-old. So we'll see this year. I'll see how he looks this year if he crosses my path. But he was like, he needs to get those forks bigger.

but he had a good frame. Um, well, how, yeah. How can people look this course up? So it's, uh, it's, it's wordy, but it's stuck in rut mule deer masterclass.com. Okay. Stuck in the rut. Spell it. Stuck in stuck. S T U C K. And instead of I N the rut.com, I'll do it again. S T. I can not close my eyes. S T U C K.

And T-H-E-R-U-T and then MuleDeerMasterClass.com. Okay, great. And you'll have that in the side notes of the podcast? Yeah, I can put the link in there. Absolutely. Okay. Yeah. So if you guys need that, go to the link and...

And it'll just, it'll direct you right to it. Check it out. I, I think I, I definitely need to, to, to, to dive in on that, um, masterclass and learn a thing or two, five about mule deer hunting. I'm definitely not an old pro at it. That's for sure. Yeah. And then, then the other thing, and I know we're at a time here, but, um, but I want to give some of the positive feedback I've got from it. Cause like I said, it's been around for 10, for three years now, for three years. And, um,

And this is the type of feedback. So I've got from beginning beginner hunters who have killed their first mule deer, but the, the, which gives me a lot of confidence in the, in the course that I created. But also the thing that means most of me is these experienced hunters, experienced hunters that have hunted for years that have said, I never knew that about mule deer.

Yeah. And, and I'm like, that means a lot to me for an experienced mule deer hunter to, you know, I hear experienced mule deer hunter by in the course of like, Ooh, he's going to judge. He's going to judge my experience, but I've had really positive experience or very positive feedback from really experienced mule deer hunters. And that means a lot to me. And so, and a lot of it too, especially with snow conditions and how mule deer handle snow conditions, um,

Way different than any animal you've ever hunted. I tell you what. And, oh, yeah. Well, I know that whenever I came up and we went wolf hunting and we talked like school girls for two or three days there about all hunting in general. And we talked elk hunting and mule deer hunting. And there was like all these little things you were telling me.

And I was like, oh yeah, that's, I never thought of that. Like that's, that's pretty, that's pretty smart. That's pretty good. You know? So, and yeah,

I, you know, we spent three days together and we talked to all sorts of stuff. And, and I know your course has way more than that. It's video based, right? It's not like, you know, we're reading PDF. So it's like, you're not going to just glaze over. You get to watch and listen. Yeah. And as monotone as my voice is, I mean, you're going to pick up a lot, but I got, you know, I have, you know, there's charts I show, I show e-scouting and that's the thing. And I even show you like in the woods, not just like,

Some stuff I'm just like explaining something, but I'm showing in the woods like certain things to not ignore and and It's all about being a you know observant to but

Yeah. I mean, I, it's really, I, I think what really taught me so much about mule deer too, more than just a lot of the experienced hunters that, like I said, all these old timers that pass it down as I put it to work and I put it to work in areas that have very little mule deer numbers. Like these are places where honestly, if I had to travel, I wouldn't like, if I had to travel several hundred miles to hunt these places, I wouldn't go to them. I only go to them because they're convenient because they're closer to home.

And people like other experienced hunters aren't pulling big muleys anymore. And I am, and I'm not saying that in a cocky way. I'm just saying that, um, I think outside the box a little bit with muleys and, and I've learned it's taught me so much, especially hunting mule deer and wolf country. It's taught me so much about how to find mule deer where there's very little mule deer. I kind of feel spoiled actually where I'm at now, just cause I'm like, there's a lot of deer here. And like,

This is kind of cool. Like I, that I'm obviously going for a big one, but I'm just like, I'm definitely going to take my time in this unit and, um, I'm holding out for a big one. And if I eat my tag holding out for a big one, so be it. But that's, that's what I'm after here. And, um, but yeah, you're gonna, it's a great course. So I recommend checking it out for sure.

Man. Well, I can't thank you enough for coming on the show again. Where can people find you on social media if they want to follow along on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube? Yeah. So we have, it's just stuck in the rut.

spelled S-T-U-C-K with an N instead of I-N. So stuckintherut.com. We have a website there. We have our Instagram. It's just at Stuck in the Rut. YouTube channel is Stuck in the Rut. YouTube's our baby. I always say that YouTube is what gave us our name because we've been using YouTube for years. I think now we're... Last I checked, we're at...

We're over 300. All I know is we're over 300,000 subscribers on our YouTube channel. And so we have a lot there. We started a little late on the Instagram, but we still have a fair amount of followers there.

and on Facebook. So yeah, I mean, if you want to stay updated for upcoming hunts and events that we do, and when we post YouTube channels, definitely follow our Instagram because we keep you updated. And obviously like as soon as I kill something and I'm in service, we post it on our Instagram, right? Um, so, so YouTube, um,

It usually, it's usually until after hunting season to where I have time to sit at a computer. I've tried the whole, let's try editing these videos as we go. It does not work. Just so busy. This is the busiest time of year for us with between wrapping up work projects to hunting. It's like,

Wintertime is really slow for me. That's when I put on pajamas and a hoodie and I just stare at a screen for nearly a month editing videos. Yeah, crawl in your little cave and just edit. I hear you, man. I've been there too. Yeah, it's almost like that. Yeah.

Well, man, thanks a lot. And I wish you the best of luck down there. Can't wait to see your pictures and can't wait to watch your videos. Hey, thank you. And I always enjoy talking to you, Dirk. And like I said, the very small, small amount of time we hunted wolf hunting. Um, it was fun. Yeah. We'll, we'll have to go do it again sometime. By the way, that wolf pack is still there. Dang it. That's that one. That was that wolf pack while I was in Alaska. Somebody was telling me that wolf pack was still there and,

um, a first time, well, he's like, I, there was a, I won't get too much detail, I guess. Cause I know we got to go, but, um, the father, he was telling me about, you know, the wolves. And then he's like, he had his son go in there and he's like, what do I do? And I gave him just a couple of tips to call in the wolves. And, uh, he brought them right in and he killed one. No kidding. That's awesome. There's a part of me that's happy for him. Part of me, I'm like,

I wish I had time to go in there. That could have been you. Yeah, but it was the same spot you and I went to. But I'm happy for him. I'm glad there's one less wolf in that drainage. Awesome. Well, we'll catch up after hunting season. Yeah, for sure. Outdoor adventure won't wait for engine problems. Things like hard starts, rough performance, and lost fuel economy are often caused by fuel gum and varnished buildup. Seafoam can help your engine run better and last longer. Simply pour a can in your gas tank.

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