Ep. 120: World Record Elk
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Welcome back to another episode of Cutting the Distance. Today I'm joined by my good buddy and co-host, Dirk Durham. Oh, hey there. How you doing? So I think it was just, we just turned into 2025 and it didn't take very long for the elk hunting world to be kind of shook up by a post from our good buddy, Bo Brooks. I consider him a good friend. You know, we used to build him turkey calls back in the day and worked with him and we talked with him. We're cordial with him. But I do...

With the direction we're going, I do want to make... He does run a call company or help work for a call company. So I just want to put it all out there. I want this to be a normal conversation with all the facts laid out there. But he made a post, I believe it was on February 2nd. I woke up and I couldn't turn on...

I shouldn't. People are going to judge me, but I flicked the Facebook. There's a post about a big giant bull. I flip over to Instagram just because I'm like, you know, oh, there's another bull. Flip to TikTok. Somehow it's there. You know, you couldn't go anywhere on February 2nd without seeing January post.

Yeah, excuse me, January 2nd. You couldn't go anywhere without seeing a post or text messages. If it wasn't for social, I didn't have to do anything because I was getting hundreds of texts. What do I know? Where was it killed? Was it Washington? The list goes on and on. So we want to talk a little bit about this world record potential. I'll say potential world record out there.

um that was recently killed in the state of washington um by casey brooks bow's dad and uh you know i've known casey since i've ever started this i can remember being um a little a little dummy working out of the corner of cory miller's booth down there at portland and a guy came up and i'd had my magazine article you know my my 370 roosevelt and uh he started asking me and

we had a little conversation and and went back and forth and cory's like you know who that was i said i don't have a clue who that was you know and ended up being casey brooks and we were talking about about big elk and where and um so we've known known him for a long time and i just wanted wanted to you know we we battled this a little bit behind the scenes like i want to be 100 transparent in this podcast me and dirk have the means we have the funds within our company we've

We buy tags at times, right? Either landowner tags, outfitter tags. And so I just want to open this wide open and just talk about all the pieces of it. So Bo makes a post on January 2nd about the bull, does a write-up about his dad and some of his accomplishments, and then anything that's big or...

you know, kind of jaw dropping, you know, I'll kind of Oz you. It wasn't very long. What a day or two. And then the, the, uh,

the, the opposite, you know, the, the, the naysayers, the, the people that had something to throw, you know, try to try to put chinks in the armor and, and break the story apart. And I almost, I almost feel like if you shoot a 300 inch bull, people start just throwing rocks like, Oh, it must be nice to hunt private land or whatever. I mean, this thing is a, you know, potentially a, a three or a 480 inch bull, uh,

um net score so you know there's lots of lots of crap being thrown oh yeah i mean not to this i don't want to make this story about myself but that same 370 bull um i killed it and then had a trip immediately to the bob marshall so i killed it around home got the taxidermist and then like two days later took off well my good buddy john davis was my guide there on that hunt

and in montana yep in montana and and he he started to ask me you know we're good friends but he was just my guide he was working for an outfitter and that's how he booked the hunt and um he had killed a couple 350 type bulls in that same area and he's like so have the stories happened yet i'm like oh no it's just been squeaky clean like no you know it's just i killed a big bull everybody's been great good

Yeah. I get home and I killed it at night. I killed it using my work key at the time I worked for the DNR. I killed it on this area. I drove my truck into a walk-in and by the time I was done, I was fighting with the entire internet over like where it was killed, how it was killed. I, you know, and it was just like, Oh my gosh, it's crazy. So like anything, you know, at that time, I think it was the number two bull in the state. Um, so there's just like controversy and, and I think people by nature are jealous, but, um,

Yeah, we just wanted to kind of jump into that and talk about kind of all sides. And then, in my opinion...

our opinion kind of like make it go full circle and and maybe say what we think you know why there was so much um you know either jealousy or frustration you know with the bull and we'll kind of save that for the end so one thing that that like maybe a question that that encompasses this whole whole ordeal and somebody started to post you know when the naysayers started coming out they're like so you tell me if you had the same means

you wouldn't be doing the same thing. And I'm curious how you would answer that. Would you, if you had, and we're going to get into the financial stuff and that later, but like if you had the ability and it meant the same to your, your checkbook and you had the ability, would you go hunt this bull? Oh, absolutely. I would go hunt that bull. Now there's a lot of speculation on where and how this bull was killed. Um, and may or may not agree with that. Um,

And it may not really serve the way I want to hunt an elk, but I would definitely try to take advantage of, of the way he got that tag. If I had those means, absolutely. I, cause, um, I love elk hunting. Right. And I feel like anybody who, who loves elk hunting with the amount of passion that you and I both have, um,

if you have the means to like hunt elk all the time, really, really, really, really big elk. Why? I don't know. I don't think there's a lot of people who would say, Nope, Nope. I, I'd rather go try to shoot five points every season instead of being able to go hunt some crazy places. You know, they'd rather, you know, um, fight off, uh,

fight off the orange army per se, you know, there's just public lands, got a lot of folks on a hunt and it's hard. It's a grind. Um, and then if, if you have that amount of means, you know, financially to go hunt, let's say the, the most premium Indian reservations or, um, these, these governor tags, raffle tags, whatever, um,

you know, you're not competing with a whole lot of other hunters. You know, there's, you know, you're going to be on public land a lot of times, but you're, you're not fighting the crowd. So, um, and then you just have the opportunity to see big, giant mature animals. And, and I think, I think all of us would, would be okay with, or would want to go do that if you had the means. I mean, that's, that's my opinion. Yeah. And, and I've got a little different answer and, and we've talked about this, you know, before I'm like,

I want to say no, and we're going to get into some more of the facts, which it may make more sense when you come and look at this question. Let me rephrase that. I don't know if they're facts. I have seen pictures and videos of where this bull was at prior, but I don't know that they're factual around the whole situation. But I don't know if I would. It doesn't... For me...

I get excited about killing a four point buck, you know, way up on the mountain as far from the stinking side by side as I can, for some reason, you know, we're five mile hiking. I don't know why right now. And that's where I love. That's why I love hunting. Like it can be something different for everybody. You know, it doesn't have to be defined as one thing. It doesn't, you know, what gets one guy excited, doesn't get the other guy excited, which is great because I think it keeps us all spread out in different ways. Um, but like for me hunting, I want to,

And I'm not saying there wasn't a challenge, I guess. And this is where there's going to be a lot of... Because I don't know the whole story. I want a physical challenge. And I don't know why it's turned into that for me. I want to feel like I beat the animal in its own...

at its best, I guess. Um, right. And so I get that. Yeah. Like, well, I will say wintering, wintering animals, like a buck that's lived his whole life in the cemetery. You know, it seems like cemeteries attract the big, you know, golf courses, but like walking out on like hole nine and shooting the biggest buck that's ever lived. Just like, uh, well, versus if I could take that buck and like, where, you know, the famous Popeye, the 40 inch buck that David, uh, long, um,

you know, like, cause he would disappear. Nobody could ever find him in his high country, but like at winter range, they would find him. And I'm like, it's almost like killing two different animals, right? Like the one up in the high country would be different. But when he's forced to come down in the sagebrush, like, man, I, I just, at that point, love to look at him and I'm probably getting ahead of myself here, but. Well, no. And I, and I agree with that. Like I, I'm not saying I would want to go hunt these things, these,

These elk or deer in their most vulnerable places. Like if I would be able to get that tag, I'd love to be able to search the high country forum or, you know, where they're spending their Septembers and Octobers. Now, um, if they migrate out, I mean, that's, that's a completely different conversation and thought process. But I will say though, I,

Back to your point of like getting excited to shoot a four point in the middle of nowhere public land. I agree 100% with you. I do love that. I kind of made that comment about five points. I will say like some years I've had like, for instance, like a landowner tag in New Mexico.

And I had, you know, elk hunt in Idaho and whatever, so on and so forth. But the most excited on those years I've ever, you know, of the hunts I've been excited to go on are back to my just, my Idaho public land, whatever, middle of nowhere, probably the one of the most wolf infested units in Idaho. I kind of look forward to that the most. I feel like it's like you're really like success there.

um, gives you the best feel good. So, you know, it's like, man, I worked hard and I really figured this out. And, and, um, it's funny, my wife, like the first time I had a, um, New Mexico, uh,

tag to where we could, it wasn't an outfitter tag, a landowner tag. My wife's like, well, if you should have really big one, you can't get it mounted and put it in the house. That's cheating. My wife said this, that's cheating. Yeah. But if you kill one up, you know, in Idaho, you know, then, then you can get that one head mounted. And I'm like, Hey, now hold on. You know, um, your, your wife's now the judge of, of what, what counts as a trophy and not. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, she always keeps me grounded, but.

but I will say that that was, uh, that was a kind of a funny, funny thought process. But like, I was, I was like, Oh, I almost, I almost feel like you're right there. So, yeah, no, it's, it's weird. And, and I walk in my house, you know, I get to look at some of the mounts and there there's the Mount Emily bowl that me and you killed together, you know, with the rifle. And it's a great bowl. It's the one over the fireplace. I'm like, that's big, but,

I turned to my right and it's the bull I killed in Mountain View in Washington. That's similar size, a little bit smaller. But for some reason in my head, that one holds a little bit. It doesn't have the asterisk next to it because I drew it through the special permits, right? It was still a similar season, limited number of hunters. I still had the same advantage. But for some reason, I'm like, well, at least I didn't have to pay for the opportunity. I literally drew a $12.50 price.

you know, tag just out of the random draw. Right. I don't know why in my head, it's just something like, yeah,

You paid for that one. You, you, you know, you got this one the regular way, but in reality, the elk had the same chance. I had the same chance. Like it was no different of a, of an advantage besides I probably wouldn't have got the Emily tag. Well, I know I wouldn't have got the Emily tag. I don't have any points, um, you know, to get it any other way. So it just, yeah, there, there's a little bit of like these special tags. Um, you know, we've, we've got to hunt in Mexico a little bit on landowner tags. We've got to hunt, um, you know, Colorado back in the day, I would buy a few deer landowner tags and,

It's still awesome, and I love to do it, and I would be a liar if I said I didn't love those, and I would still do it because I love to just be out there and hunt. But I haven't got what I would consider these super special tags, right? I just get a ticket to the show. I'm still hunting along 50 other guys in Mount Emily. I'm still hunting along the other tag holders during a set season that the Fish and Wildlife sets because there's the best chance of escapement. We've still got some of these odds against us, and I haven't got a true...

a true like premium i guess my oak tag this year is pretty premium but um just just like late season and and i do i walk in and i don't know why i maybe with age it'll finally dissipate but i look in there like oh that was a public land bull over the counter tag oh that's a that was a landowner tag or an outfitter tag like not not you know you just knock it down a rung on the ladder right right i feel like there's like

Like you said, we get a, like an outfitter tag or a landowner tag. You're still just got a ticket to the show, right? You're still, you're still navigating public land with a lot of other folks. Like on my elk hunt this year in Oregon, dude, we see it. We saw so many people.

Like they were people across the Canyon, right. Where we spotted the elk the night before we're right where they're supposed to walk. There's people walking through there and sitting down and stinking it up and blowing out any opportunity there. There's people over at another vantage point looking for the same bull we're looking for. Um, where there's people walking up on us, standing next to us, one at our viewpoint that stand there talking and looking in like, Hey, can I be quiet? We're trying to, trying to get an elk here and they're talking loud, loud and

and, um, you know, looking for spikes, you know, they're, they can be out there, you know, these are all the spike hunters and, and we did see another, um, big bull tag hunter over there in that other vantage point, but man, there was people everywhere. So, you know, it's not like,

We got some, you know, okay, come through the pearly gates here and now you're in Elk Heaven and there's nobody else. It's still that. So it's not that level of, I mean, it's a great opportunity that, you know, not everybody can get, I guess. But it's a... But shoot, I mean...

If you, but let's say you did have a statewide tag, you could have killed the big bull we were watching the night before while we were all scouting to try to find it. Right, right. We could have just pulled the trigger right then if we'd have that next level tag. Yeah.

yeah that's just that difference of like all right these elk aren't dumb pressure shows up the big bull we were watching like you know where to be seen the next day um because he had 40 people around him the night before you know not really 40 i'm exaggerating but uh right yeah it's just that's where it gets back to these like super premium tags like there's a huge difference on having a great

Tag that's, but you're hunting along everybody else, but like being able to hunt the dates in between seasons or just anytime you want. It's, it's, uh, I think a huge difference. Yeah. Uh, well, what do you, what do you think set everybody off with this post anyway? Can, can you, um, can you elaborate on what the post said?

yeah i will um i was going to get there a little bit at the end okay i wanted i really wanted that i don't want to put the i really wanted to the touch on the legal side because it's important to me and we've been advocates for this i've mentioned on this podcast many times like i ultimately don't care at the end of the day as long as it's legal like yeah i can have my opinion um but you know

Yay. Nay. Like I wouldn't do it. It's not your cup of tea, but you know, it's legal. Yeah. And I'm, I'm so tired of the division within the hunting world. I shouldn't say industry is a stupid word. Cause I,

there's not very many of us to me it matters like the hunting world people that participate in hunting there's so much division you know on this season versus that season i want more time you guys you know your weapon gets more time um you know mule deer over elk elk over mule deer uh weapon choices weapon restrictions like if it's legal we always complain about fish and wildlife organizations but i guess at some point we're gonna have to trust them a little bit like if

The fishing game have decided that that is a legal method of take and the seasons are based on it. Like at some point I'm not the judge anymore. Right. I can say I don't like it or I think we should fight for some change. But at some point, like my only measuring stick is the judge and the jury is like, is it legal or is it not? And I should be done with it. Right. You know, aside from, um,

So one thing we go back to, like, all right, the raffle tickets were bought for an area. And so he had a legal tag. He had a legal right to hunt this elk, this giant bull where it was at. So I've got to assume the no reason not to believe that it wasn't killed over...

you know, more than 10, 10 gallons of feed. If feed was even used. Um, I have no reason to believe that, you know, a bull of this caliber, like, you know, there's no trespassing involved permission to hunt on the place that lived, um, season dates, all of the things, uh,

are all the boxes have been checked so it's legal so why why would we you know why would i have any issues with this and we're going to kind of wrap all that up you know you kind of to ask me to explain why the issue was um with this but as far as i'm concerned it's legal right like who are we to say different um yeah we weren't there and i just assume i assume you know they did it right you know yeah

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exclusions like taxes and fees apply guarantees regular monthly rate plan price of fixed wireless 5g internet data with qualifying service after 15 bill credit with postpaid voice line plus five dollars a month without auto pay with debit or bank account regulatory fees included for qualifying accounts 35 connection charge applies speeds vary due to factors affecting cellular networks some of the speculation and some of the pictures that that others have brought up there are i've seen two videos and i've seen three or four pictures of this bull um

One, it was behind a white vinyl horse fence. It kind of comes up to the fence and turns away. The second video I've seen has the bull eating out of a little, I would call it a little pile of alfalfa, but you know those dangly, I call them party lights, where you can kind of dangle these lights from post to post. Hurricane lights. Yeah, they were...

you know there was a pic video of the bull obviously a trail cam picture of a bull eating some alfalfa and then it walks out of the frame and then a couple pictures of the bull i believe one was the prior year and one was this year of the bull eating some alfalfa and some deeper snow i don't know dates on those photos none of that but those are what we've seen and so that that is what kind of um stirs up some of the the unrest and and the way the story was you know goes against

I won't say against, but it maybe challenges the story. I'll put it that way. A little bit more on how everything went. But I don't... And this is where I got to make sure... I don't want to be hypocritical because...

I've killed a mule deer in eastern Washington over a pile of apples and that was pre like measured bait rules so like I'm not joking when we would pull up everybody's seen like the big bins of apples traveling you know potatoes in like big giant bins like I was literally two tons of apples yeah I was literally hunting over the like the the deer stood in the pile of apples to eat the apples sort of a pile of apples but how much how many apples were there on the bait though

When I hunted. Yeah. It was like the major. That many. Like. There was no measurement back then. It was pretty. Oh, you could put a truckload of apples. Yeah. Oh, and that's what I mean. Like I'm literally hunting like the ultimate bait, right? Apples. It smells like apple cider. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so, uh, yeah.

that, you know, I've hunted deer over that and I did it once. My good buddy, our good buddy, Oren with Tanglewood guides invited me out and I'm like, Hey, I did it once. Like this isn't my thing. And it kind of, that was one where I really had to kind of challenge my own personal, you know, what I want to do for running. Cause there was a one 88 and a one 84 buck killed that time, you know? And I'm like, Oh, and there was a bigger one around and, um, you know, invited me back. And I'm like, man, I would just assume take my wife back if I was going to come back. And he allowed my wife to come back and we sat a different blind. And, um, you know, and I've,

blacktails around home, you know, everybody killing big blacktails around home. You know, most of the time they need to, I shouldn't say everybody. Most of the blacktails around home are being killed over bait, you know, on some sort of a blind or a tree stand set up. Um,

We hunt, we hunt over bait at times, not all the time in Kansas when we go, right. It's just, it's legal. And so like, that's where I want to get back to. Like, I don't have a single issue with baiting. You know, we've, we've did it at times. Um, in the past I did it and didn't really appreciate it. And you know, or the, the experience. And now that we're in Kansas at times, it's our best option. And where Randy tells us we should be, we, we are.

Um, so I don't have an issue with that as long as it's legal in that state. Um, and you know, everything's followed. Um, so in my opinion, like this checks the box, like as far as we know, all the information we know, like this bull was killed legally. I, you know, I don't have an issue with, with any of it. Um, so, um,

We will circle back and then we'll get into the rest of the story. So you had mentioned, you know, so what was the issue or if I don't necessarily have an issue, but one of the things that bothered me was maybe the way the post, the original post, you know, Casey let his son Bo make the post and it starts right out. It doesn't say anything like new world record. You know, my dad does it again. It's the king of elk hunting.

And it goes through to talk about being number three and number four already in the books and like his lifelong dream to be, you know, hold the world record. And so I think people and even myself, like it is what it is. I can read that. And like, I don't know how you define the king of elk hunting. Is it truly by the record book? Um,

But I think that's what really kind of made some people either amplify their jealousy or like want to throw stones, whatever you want to call it. That's what kind of, I think triggered some people. Yeah. Um, I think that post would have been written up different. It could have been a completely different outcome in my opinion. I agree a hundred percent. It was a little inflammatory to a lot of folks, I think. But, and then, then I look at like, if I put myself on Bo's, uh,

Right. And, and like, and every, every young man, you, you, you say, well, my dad's the best dad in the world. My dad can beat up your dad. I mean, everybody is pretty damn proud of their dad. Like they put their dad on a pedestal so I can see the excitement. Like I can see him, like he's so excited for his dad and he thinks so much of his dad and he puts that on there and I can,

when I look at that perspective, like I'm not mad at all, but if you look at it from a different, through a different lens, it can be a little inflammatory to a lot of people. Cause a lot of other people like, no, Hey, hold on. I know a guy, my buddy or my dad or my, whoever there,

They're a better hunter because they do it this way or that way. So back to like comparison, right? And I think like comparison is the thief of joy or whatever the old adage says. So this comparison, like my dad's the best elk hunter in the world. Everybody is like immediately internally like, well,

bullshit i i know 27 other people are better than that you know and immediately people are mad about it so i think you're right if i feel like it was if it would have been a little a different post it could have been perceived differently but but then again i get it i can i totally get it and there's part of me that like respects the post and would have did the same thing like

And I struggle with it. Like if I get to a place where maybe Bo doesn't give a crap what anybody thinks, like this is my post. You can judge it however you want. Like this is, you know what I mean? Like if you don't take any of these naysayers or these jealous individuals and like their attacks back, like I made the post the way I wanted to and how I felt. But I think there's also the sense, like if you think of it that way, it's better, but you also just put it on social media with the intent

Or the purpose to share and get that out there. You've got to expect.

like some of that, that to come back with the way it was worded and put together. Right. And another thing, if you think about like, let's say you said, Hey, my dad just found the cure to cancer and he is now the best scientist in the world. And look at all of his, you know, he's got this prize here, this Nobel prize for this. He's accomplished all this other stuff. And let's say, you know, you've now he's found the cure for whatever X, Y, Z disease. Um, and it, it,

Of course it's different context. Of course it's not hunting. It's something completely different and super way more important, but still like somebody probably would be mad. Like, Hey, wait a minute. I'm a pretty damn good scientist too, but the probably be less, less anger or less hate. Yeah. Yeah. And, and,

I want to be careful. I don't want to feel like I'm being a life coach here. But like I've, I've went through, you know, when I, I've never killed anything that's potential, you know, best in the world. You know, I guess my one bowl is as close as it gets you a number two in the state. And I think, uh,

and maybe it's just everybody's got different personalities, but like I tried to like overly be humble about it. Like I didn't, I didn't want to be judged. It was nothing, you know, there's, there's a lot of factors that go into it. Yeah. There are people that are, you know, consistently good elk hunters, consistently successful, but I didn't want to be put on any pedestal. It just happened to be, I was in the right place with the right bull at the right time. Like, be careful here. Like my skills are above average. I think, I think I've,

proven it enough times that probably above average, but like, I didn't want to be, I didn't want that to be anything. I didn't want to be like defined by one single elk or one single accomplishment or mold. You know, it's like, I just wanted the elk. I just wanted the elk to be like seen respected. I did have a business need. And so it gets very complex. Right. And I, I guess everybody does stuff for different reasons, but

I just loved the elk hunt at the end of the day. Yeah, I got a little bit lucky, a little bit fortunate to kill a giant bull. It took off. Back then you were with Extreme Elk Magazine. You guys wanted a copy of it and the story. Things kind of went on and maybe I'm a hypocrite for saying I didn't want everybody to know about it. I guess in a roundabout way I did, but I just wanted to be real modest and somewhat humble through that process because I don't know. I didn't want

hunting to like be that thing that gave you some social status. I guess, you know, growing up with a grandpa that was all about filling the freezer, it just felt a little bit dirty or wrong. And now I've got an entire business where I post everything I do. So I'm trying to like walk through this, but I guess at the end of the day, maybe I'm a hypocrite. Well, I don't think you're intending like, for instance, like you could say this about shooting a giant bull. You could say this about buying a brand new pickup, like

You kind of feel like a little bit humble. Like, I don't, I don't want, I don't want people to see me driving this pickup and then maybe they can't afford a cool truck like this and then feel bad. Like, I don't, I'm not trying to like make, crush anybody's dreams or feel bad or if I kill something really nice and I don't want anyone to feel less from it. You know, I, I want...

If they see it, I hope they see it and like, you know, applaud, you know, and like get inspired, but not feel slighted or feel like, oh man, you're just throwing that in their face.

Um, you know, I think that's part of your, your, your humility. I don't think you're, you're looking for that at all. You're just like trying to share and, and with, you know, our brothers and brotherhood of hunting, you know, it's like, Hey, look at this as a beautiful elk and as a beautiful experience. And, and maybe there's some inspiration from it. Um, but yeah, back to you. Yeah. And that's.

yeah and that's like you know people you know at time like oh dirk's the best alcohol in the world or jason's a you know a mat you know i just watched an episode somebody's like oh rogan mentions you on on this one so i go flip the joe rogan and he calls me like a master and a world class and i'm like ah you know just like some of those things like get under your skin you're like i'm i'm good at it right i think it would be stupid to say i'm a bad out caller right but i just i just don't i don't

maybe i shouldn't care but i'm always like oh somebody's gonna be like oh yeah but i've did this or i've you know it's like i just want being somewhat humble and flying under the radar and not i don't know it just seems like a safer spot at times right right and maybe i'm a chicken i don't know i don't even know what i'm talking about right now but it's one of those things where like the way i guess getting back to the way the post was made like just yeah i i think

Putting it out there to all of social media in the context it was, it's like, you know, king of elk hunting and then went back to all like, oh, now he's number one, four and five, you know, or whatever it is. However, that's going to lay out now. It was just, I think it rubbed some people the wrong way, like you said. And I think if it was worded different or like we're so grateful or so thankful to have, you know, so blessed to have the opportunity, you know, and it went that way, I think would have been maybe a different response to him.

There'd still be the haters, but I feel like it wouldn't have struck a nerve in as many people, maybe. Yeah. And I have no doubt, like I've never got to hunt with Casey, regardless of where you're hunting. I've always said that too, regardless of where you're hunting, you still have to know, like the elk don't know.

that you've got a special tag and you know, that like you're who you are, like the elk don't just lay down regardless. Um, so you still have to know what you're doing. And so I, I've never, I don't want to discredit anything that, that, you know, Casey or Bo or anybody has accomplished. I'm just walking through, you know, the, the circumstances around this one. Um, so let's jump in one thing. And I get, this is what I got some messages and even got like specific questions. Um, is the, the, uh,

the wealth involved that you know i would say me and you are probably in that one percent of people that get to spend money on elk hunting due to our marketing budget due to the resources we have but the wealth that that's put into this hunt by others like that's the one thing you get that got brought up more than than anything else is like oh if i could do it or you know another you know people throw all kinds of other claims out there i don't even know i haven't added it up you know cost of the raffle tags and everything but like

This sort of wealth allows for opportunities that can probably be had by, I wouldn't even get into percent. I would just say 50 to a hundred individuals. Yeah. In the world. And out of those people who has the interest to spend the money and then go, go put in the work and then know how to know how to hunt. Right. Or have that kind of interest. Like I could do it, but I don't really, I'm not really interested in hunting elk. Yep.

Yeah, I mean, I don't even know if we should bring up names, but, you know, like Jimmy John's, great guy, spends a ton of money, but he has Ryan Carter with him, right, everywhere he goes. So there's like, Casey doesn't have that. So I think there's different levels of guys that can afford it, so we get back to that wealth, but then guys that maybe you know how to do it 100% on their own when they have to. Whether that's a factor or not, I just know that like even...

like i i don't have the means i could maybe do it once or twice you know do some of these governor's tags or raffle tags and then i wouldn't be able to retire but um

We talked about it and it got brought up on phone calls. We've tried to think about it. I got asked, somebody's like, do you have any way that you could data mine how many percent of Pope and Young or Boone and Crockett Bowles in the record books, like the all-time, were killed on Raffler governor tags? And I don't, but it's a good question and we can at least have a conversation around it. You were mentioning the other day, before the podcast, you don't know of anybody who

outside of like personally around you outside of governor or raffle tag holders that have killed a 400 inch bull right on on that ground around home i feel like i know like a lot of the like a lot of uh in the industry really good hunters you know rain lampers and such um and and folks like him you know but and then i know a lot of unsung hunters the people that don't don't do social they don't do industry stuff and really really really good hunters

They don't have a 400-inch bull under their belt, but they're just working stiff guys. They don't have a big checkbook.

Yeah. And that Dave Grimm that I've had on the podcast, you know, probably a hundred episodes ago, you know, he got to Idaho in the heydays and his dad had all kinds of access because he was the appliance repairman. Right. And so he was hunting some amazing Idaho stuff. And that guy's got a ton of bowls over three 80 that he won't talk about, but he never broke. I don't believe he's ever broke that, that magical 400 inch number, you know, and he was,

He's another one of those guys that I know he knows how to hunt. I've got to hunt with him down in New Mexico. But just like that, you see a guy that probably had more opportunities than the best of the best that Idaho had to offer and couldn't muster up a 400. He's seen some, but just could never kill them. It's a tough, tough feat.

And that kind of rolls into, you know, and, and I'm going to, I'm going to tell a little story on, on the wealth and, and how you get access to 420 inch bulls. So 2019, the very first outfitter tag I ever bought in Oregon, I was hunting with Brian Sanders. I don't think you went on that one. It was just us. And so we're hunting, um, in, in Brian's kind of a funny guy. He's kind of always on his phone, but not letting me see and texting back and forth. And he, I've got a, a 10 day hunt.

I know he's got a statewide tag holder that's got a governor's tag, kind of that he's waiting to find the right bull. You know, he's got guys out looking. And so I kill my bull, you know, a great 340 bull. We had to go down to private. All the bulls actually showed up down on Brian's place, went down and hunted him in a little pine tree flat. And I killed my 340 bull. We got it all taken care of. And you could see Brian was like really itchy to go check on some stuff.

um next day he calls the state the state um tag holder in they pay an access fee and they go kill 420 inch bull the next day um so that's where like this this funding and wealth at times that's an opportunity even if everybody had that tag um whatever it may be like until you can keep writing checks up to you know or that that bull is off limits for a guy like me yeah

And so there's raffle tags, there's resources. We were in the Tucannon back in 2014 on Kelly Smith's tag up there with Charlie. I didn't realize there are...

the mountains are crawling with people because some of these governor tags, whether it's legal or not, it's basically illegal guiding. There are, the mountains are crawling with people looking for that finders fee for 400 inch bull for some of these governor tags. And it's just like, I didn't realize, you know, until I started to figure, you know, to understand or actually be in the know how, how crazy it is. And some of the, the bounties that are put on, on,

on these guys finding bulls so people are out there doing it as a part-time job or you know running trail cameras everywhere and we're like what do you oh we're just scouting for for governor's tag i'm like oh my gosh it's it's crazy and like it's i don't know what you'd call i guess it's resources that most people don't have right yeah absolutely um

Me and you are fortunate that a lot of people know us or know of us or want to help us. And I feel like even what we get at times is like maybe go to this area. We don't ever get put on. But it's like even that compared to somebody like, hey, I got a bull in this canyon at this time. Not saying that's how this went at all, but it's just talking about how wealth can sometimes...

to opportunities that aren't there. And, you know, maybe there is a little bit of jealousy for people that they can't do it. You know, but I would say it's available to everybody. You just have to go out there and work and get the money to some point, right? Like it's not saying it's off limits. It's just a lot of work and a lot of fortune and, you know, a lot of luck involved on getting yourself to a place where you can financially afford that. So it is available to everybody, but there's some limitations to get there, I would say. Right.

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We'll look at Chuck Adams, right? You read his book, and this book's published years ago, a couple decades ago probably. But, you know, famous outdoor rider, famous bow hunter, you know, a legendary bow hunter. But he, you know, full transparency, full transparency in his book. You know, he's just like, you know, a lot of people like say he's,

You know, that's why he can afford to go hunt sheep and all these, all these different polar bears and all this stuff. But he's like, people don't realize like I've mortgaged my house several times, you know, taking out the equity for these hunts. He's like, I had to make a pretty normal living as an outdoor writer, but my priorities is these hunts. And so he's...

He's probably not making the best financial decisions. If Dave Ramsey heard him, he'd be like, you're a fool. Yeah. His kids are going to be pissed off when they read the will and figure out the bank. I don't know if that's the situation, but yeah. But yeah, if you just love the hunt, that's your passion, you might be able to put it all together and make it happen. Right. Right. But I don't know too many people that are really willing to like,

mortgage their house to go hunt you know somewhere i mean that's that's next level um yeah so i wanted to jump in a little bit to the advantage that these tags um give somebody and we were talking about a little bit earlier like yeah this bull that was killed could probably have been killed on a normal tag

But I believe the state of Washington, I don't want to say the number of tags because it could allude to the unit. Not very many tags are given though, right? Very, very, very few. Pretty brushy unit, you know, wherever this bull rutted. My understanding, I did, I know this bull is being hunted on public, private, prior to ending up on the private. It's just...

So these tags, it's easy for people to just say this bull could have been killed with. Yeah, that's a, that is a fact, but the likelihood or anybody that's hunted long enough knows that there's like circumstances that don't make it like a very high probability you would ever kill that bull, right? Whether it lived on a private ranch or it truly did live on public, or maybe it crosses from two pieces of private and you're trying to hunt like a little, you know, corner, um, these sort of opportunities, there are advantages that,

that normal people, you know, without a raffle or a governor's tag just don't have. And there's no denying that, right? You can start typically, well, at least in Washington state, August 1st, or maybe that's Oregon, maybe Washington, September 1st, all the way to December 31st.

Yeah, that's a long season. And with governor's tags, you never have to put your rifle down if that's your meat. Casey killed this one with a bow. But if you wanted to, you can even have more of advantage and never put your rifle down. You can literally go out there during archery season and hunt right alongside those guys with your rifle if that's what you want to do.

And then it does give, in my opinion, an advantage at the back end of the season. Because if you have an early winter or a winter or these bulls start to migrate out of their summer range or their transition range and they're down into their winter range, I do feel they become more susceptible to...

being comfortable like the creature comforts of where's my food you know they they literally just went from being able to live anywhere in the world down to a small section of lowlands um and you know not only this bowl what two years ago dirk we were talking the washington raffle tag bowl right the giant that was 460 470 once again killed on in the last week of december i believe um you know had to wait for enough snow to pile up for that bowl and and i'm

I do want to add an asterisk to this conversation. This is how I understand the story. So I'm not saying this is exactly, I know there was, there was a lot of snow in that picture. And I do know about the time it was killed. It was later in the year that bull had to get down, you know, a little bit lower. So there, there is, there's, there's, you know, unlimited,

season not unlimited but confined season that extends way outside of normal opportunity and then a lot of people are able to take um advantage over the the you know potential early winter you know you're starting to hunt all the way through december 31st i know that bull this year i'm i know the uh the governor's tag bull was killed in that last week in washington this year um

So there is no denying that some of these bulls become more vulnerable or more susceptible to being, you know, being seen or located late in the year when the snow forces them to be in certain areas. Yeah, absolutely. It's, you know, they're down there, you know, focusing on just staying alive at this point, you know, as far as feeding, you know, that they're not, maybe not being pursued by people or the predators are always looking for, but they're just trying to pack on some weight after everything they've lost over the, over the rut, you know? Yep. Yep.

um yeah and then at that time of the year there's no nobody out in the woods right you're it's you and then you know you're the only tag holder for a large chunk of the state or uh you know the whole state for some of these tags or half the state in washington um it's just different those those elk aren't being bothered by anything but predators at that point like no more human presence they get comfortable um they've got to live in a smaller area and so it just kind of

Yeah. There's an advantage. Do you pay for that advantage? Yes. Is it right or wrong? Or, you know, it's like, once again, it's legal and we don't set the season date. So if the season dates for raffles and governor's tags needs to be what it is, then, then I'm fine with it. There is, but there is like, I think we need to talk to the facts that they are more vulnerable, more susceptible at that time of year. Right now. Um, I would, I wouldn't think I would like to question a little bit, like some of these, where these funds are going. Um,

You know, in the spirit of conservation, you know, that's how they're spun like these these funds that folks are paying for these governor tags or raffle tags. You know, it's all all goes back to conservation. But I'd really love to see an in-depth audit of some of those accounts of where that actually money is spent, where the rubber meets the road back into conservation, back on to where it hits the landscape of conservation.

of wildlife conservation. I'd like to see that, um, just to be like, okay, yeah, we're doing the right thing still, or hold on. We maybe, or maybe we shouldn't be doing this. Um, yeah. Yeah. Or like,

you know, I'd love to see, you know, similar out of that audit, like how, you know, for a hundred dollars and like how much of it actually ends up on the ground or does it all get cut up in red tape? And, oh, by the time we pay the administration and 90% of it goes to wages and, and, you know, fish and wildlife stuff, then, oh, 10% will actually go back into opening up some wintering range or planting some sage. You know, it's like,

Like the Red Cross kind of always gives their... Any big foundation, like, oh, 73% will make it back on the ground, or 90% will make it to the recipient. Because that gets thrown out. That's the first defense you see. Look at how much money they're putting into conservation. I'm like, yeah, at face value, it looks like that, but are we really getting it to where it needs to get? Yeah. And there's...

I want to kind of wrap this up and, you know, we could talk about it all, all day, but like, I just, at times to my own opinion, like I just sometimes love to watch animals. Like I've said it on this podcast before I root for the animals sometimes. Right. And at times there's like, man, part of me would love for this bull to breed every cow in the, you know, in that, in that County. Yeah. And is, is, or is jeans going to show up and,

And so, like I say, I'm not trying to say I wouldn't have killed the thing if I had the opportunity, but like, you know, cemetery bucks just don't get me excited, but I love to look at them through my binoculars and like, wow, that's a great example of the species. Right. Right. Like that's a school to look at. And I'd love to see what he does next year. And, um, you know, I've got, I've got big black tails that walk through my yards at times and I don't shoot them and I can't stop my neighbors from shooting them at times, but it's like, I just, I just love to watch the deer do their thing in my yard at times. Like maybe I'm a softie.

I don't know. Sometimes watching this elk just do its thing, get down to where he's lived for the past five, six years and where he's comfortable. I don't know. Once again, it goes back. Maybe I should just say it was legal and not get into that touchy-feely stuff. Right. Well, I think we all have our...

how we'd prefer to kill an elk or, you know, our, our, our dream hunt. I've, I've been building points in Arizona for years. You know, I'm going to, I'm approaching two decades in points in Arizona and I could for sure draw a late season tag somewhere. But to me and my, in my eye and people are like, dude, you should just draw that late season tag. Oh, it's great. But in my mind, if I'm going to Arizona, that's,

That's not the hunt I want. I don't want to go there when it's, the forest is quiet and it's cold and I'm just glass and bowls and sneaking up and all that. I'm, I'm going there for the experience. I'm going there for the screaming bulls, the rut, you know, I'm, I'm looking for that particular, uh, experience. Um, in fact, you know, here in Idaho myself, like there's a, there's a lot of units that have a lot of elk that, but it's just not my cup of tea. I don't like that kind of hunting. I'm going to go hunt the kind of places. It's my kind of pretty, uh,

and, and hunt them on the, the way I like to do it, calling them in, calling them in. Right. Um, I can, I've, I've always said the guys that are good at spot and stock kill way more bulls than the guys are calling them in and bigger bulls, but that's not the way I like to do it. Right. So, um, so I guess, I guess, you know, personally, that's not my cup of tea, how I'd want to kill that boat, that world record bull.

but I'm not going to throw rocks. I mean, it was legal. That's just my opinion. Yep. No, and that's,

that's how I am. It was legal. We can all have our opinions. Do they matter? No. I mean, at the end of the day, they're just opinions. And like I say, I think we should, you know, stay away from, you know, being divisive as we can. There was just, there was just some things on this bowl. I hopefully, you know, I'd like to congratulate Casey on his success and, you know, Bo on his dad's success. And, you know, it's awesome to see. It's awesome that we get a chance to see a bowl of that caliber. Who knows, maybe next time one's killed, we won't get to see it with all the

you know, all the, the, the, the hate that, you know, I don't know if it's hate, but you know, people, people throw in shade. I just, once again, I'm not a life coach, I'm not a psychologist, but I would just say next time, like, I think if it would have been worded different or it could have been in a completely different outcome, maybe not as many people would have been frustrated with the story and, you know, calling whether it's your dad or not, the King of elk hunting, it's tough to define, um,

that right because there's no situation's the same no opportunity is the same and i think we can all argue that we definitely don't have the same opportunity that casey gets right um you know and it was kind of funny there's a there's a 28 page post on one of the local forums you know because it was killed here in washington so everybody's talking about it and they're like well how do you how are you the king elk hunting like

Did we put an elk with like the same mental capability inside of a fence a million times and let everybody who thinks they're the best elk hunter, like go try to kill it. And then what's our measuring stick? Like the way the wind was that day, how fast you killed it. Like there's no way because all of our, all of our stories are different. All of our opportunities are different. Right. And I think maybe we'll close with this.

Like that might be the biggest detriment to social media and hunting in general. Now that everybody can talk like back in the day when grandpa hunted, right? I think like you didn't know what the hell somebody killed two States over. Right. No idea that there was a giant bull killed on the wall or a buck on the Wasatch front. You had no idea that something was killed in Arizona unless you bought a magazine. You didn't even know there was up there. Yeah. You, you just hunted the hunt. And I think,

That, that like find your own why. Right. And just stick to it. Don't be jealous. Like know that whoever posted the picture of a giant bull,

that was their, their idea. Or maybe they lucked into it. Give them a high five, say congrats and then go on your way. Like don't judge them by your, by your book or don't judge them by what you're after. Right. And I, like I say, I feel like I'm preaching or a psychologist right here, but I feel like it's important for all of us for hunting future to like, we've got to find a way to, to like get by judging what everybody does. Like, Oh, they use a muzzleloader, but it's not traditional. Like Matt doesn't count or like, Oh, they,

they're a crossbow hunter and I'm a long bow hunter. Like, doesn't like, no, just do it because you love it. And because that's what hunting was. If you didn't have a damn Facebook page or an Instagram page,

Or, you know, maybe if you read a magazine article, you'd see one person killed across bow. Like you wouldn't know this happens like social media, good or bad. It's like, you've got to be able to like cope with your, cope with your feelings and just accept it for what it is. Like those people would be doing that with or without social media. Maybe, maybe not. I don't know.

Um, like I said, I feel like I'm just rambling now and getting the point across, but yeah, well back to your point of King of elk hunting. I mean, it's so like in his opportunity of world is in his opportunity of bill to spend that kind of money and hunt those kinds of places. Yeah. You know, that may be, yeah, he is a King that he's going to take that crown with that, with that, uh, measurement. Right.

But I know a guy that nobody knows. He's killed more 300 plus inch bulls with a rifle in October, you know, in rifle season in the most wolf infested unit in Idaho. He's killed more of those big bulls than anybody I know. More than all the old old timers. In fact, his dad shot a three 80 bull.

And that wolf infested unit here two years ago, um, I would challenge that hit between him and his dad. I, I would, I would almost say he and his dad are the King of elk hunting. Like they have, they, they have, they have really completed a feat in that country. And then to, to pull a three 80 bull out of there that nobody shot a three 80 bull in that, in that area in 30, 40, 50 years. I'm like, so, um, yeah. Yeah.

It's like, there's the situations are so different, like to just say, to say that. And I think that's why people were so incensed or mad about that. So. Yeah. Cause you can't define it. And you know, you mentioned your buddy, I know who you're talking about, but you're like, we've talked about Dave Graham. We've talked about our, my, our buddy, John Davis up there in Libby. You talk about guys like Ryan Lampers and Brian Barney, like,

They, they, they've got the skill and the know-how they've proven it over and over. And it's like, well, if you, let's say Ryan Lampers had a, a bottomless checkbook, like, man, I almost would struggle to ever bet against him, like doing the same thing, if not better. Right. Like I, I don't, I want to, I don't want to get into this, you know, but it is like,

You can't define that because it is so unique to everybody. And, and I guess we can kind of close with that. Do what you love. Hunt the way you love. Do the, do the best you can and root for other hunters. But in the end, just, just be happy. Like don't throw rocks at each other. Yeah.

But I'm a huge, like, I'm always saying like, like, man, we are so divided and everybody's got something to say, you know, about, about anything. Like, it don't matter what it is. You know, you see all these crazy posts. I caught somebody posted, Bo had put like a little video, like Casey Brooks, he chopped this big bowl and kind of starts talking about it. And then somebody, you know, remixed it and then put in their two cents on, on Instagram. So, yeah.

I kind of commented a little bit of something about, not really about that bowl, but I addressed one of the other comments he'd made there. Oh man, you know, people are, people are commenting on that and then telling me I'm a, I'm a jackass and for this and that, I'm like, Oh, well, you know, but what about this? What about that? And I, I feel like me, I should just shut up and like, I shouldn't even comment. Right. I should. But sometimes you just like, I'm gonna put my two cents in there to get people thinking. Um,

but let's not hate each other. Jeez, come on. No name calling, no hate. Let's just all think about it. And, but, uh, you know, we, we all take our own path in life. Yep. Yep. No, I appreciate having you on here. Like I say, it was a topic. Once again, I didn't want to comment on, so I figured let's just have a podcast, talk about it. And like I say, um, we'll end with congrats to Casey and Bo on, on that success. And, uh,

Yeah. Just go out and hunt the way you love to and try to keep your comments to yourself. Like it just, it's not a good look if it's legal, if it checks that box and just keep it to yourself and move on. Yep. Absolutely. We'll see you next time, guys. All right. Take care, Dirk.

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