Ep. 123: Working in the Hunting Industry
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Welcome back to another episode of Cutting the Distance Podcast. This week's guest is a longtime friend, John Gabriel. He's the owner and operator of Apex Advertising. Welcome to the show, John. Thank you. Appreciate you having me on. Good to see your face. Yeah, good to see you. People probably don't know this, but I probably talk to John on the phone more than any other human being.

in my circle of friends. And why? Well, I really like John. He's a cool guy. And we share a lot in common. If we want to rant or rave about something, it seems like we're always on the line doing it. But we actually work really close together as John does all the graphic layout of our packaging, our show displays. Man, tons of our graphics at Phelps Game Calls. So, yeah.

But I think you and I met like years ago back when I co-founded an elk hunting magazine called Extreme Elk Magazine back in the day. I think you were kind of helping out with some graphic art assets. Yeah.

Yeah. I think, uh, man, has it been that long? It's definitely, it's been a long time. I remember the magazine. Um, yeah, it was like 2010 I think is when I first met you. And then, um, you know, and then like in person, it was shortly thereafter. I think we, we were at a bow shoot or something and, um, spent a lot of time over the years hanging out and, um, enjoyed your, your companionship and, and your, your, um, your take on a lot of stuff. Um,

Now, John's just not a pretty face and a wizard for graphic arts. I will say he is quite a hunter. And some people specialize. I feel like I kind of specialize in elk, but I feel like John's kind of a generalist. I feel like he's really good at a lot of different hunting. So he's really great hunting with bears, right?

elk, antelope, deer, mule deer. Uh, he sucks at Turkey hunting, but that could be where he lives, right? Um, Turkey hunting in Montana is probably not the greatest. Well, there's birds all around. Well, I'm just gonna, we're just gonna throw it out there. I, yeah. Turkey hunting. Yeah. I suck at it. I, um, me and turkeys, we just don't jive. So that, um, we're going to change that one of these days.

Yeah. Well, you should do it this year. Yeah. Well, it seems like anytime you, you text me or call me about it in the springtime about turkeys, you're like these damn things. They're like all over the place, but just on the wrong side of the fence, they love private property, especially in Montana. They do. I know. It's like they're always by someone's barn or like something pecking away in someone's yard. Every time I ended up finding a big group of them, but I don't know. We've had a few out in the woods, but yeah, I just,

I don't know. I can't, I can't figure them out quite yet. So I'll be honest. It's not like I've invested a ton of time in them like I do with other animals, but, um, maybe this year we'll get a little more into it. So I don't know. I got to fill one, fill a tag once.

Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think if you put the amount of effort into turkey hunting, as you do everything else, you guys would be slaying them. Um, but I know that there's other things taking priority that time of year. I mean, bear hunting, that's a lot funner than turkey hunting, uh, for a lot of people. So, and I know you sure enjoy it.

Yeah. You know, I think that's kind of the one thing that that time of year I'm going out looking for bears because they kind of open pretty much at the same time here around April 15th. So it's like once that hits, I'm up in the hills watching the snow melt, looking for a bear rather than I am chasing a bird. So I don't know. I mean, maybe I should reverse that a little bit, though, and go spend the first week looking for a bird and then focus on the bears because I usually don't seem to find the bear I want until I'm

I, well, like this year I drug it out clear to the end of season. So apparently I, I like waiting around on that, but, um, maybe we'll have to dedicate a little more time to some turkeys. Yeah. Yeah. The same thing could be said about me and shooting a deer, an early season mule deer or an early season white tail, um, versus elk. It seems like every year that that first week at elk archery elk season, I'm out beating around and, um,

i think what am i doing i'm not hearing any bugles it's hot it's there's nothing going i'm just educating elk you know what next year i'm gonna go deer hunting the first week of archery instead of elk hunting because you know what there's i'll probably have a lot more fun or you know it's it's something different i've never killed a mule deer with my bow um i'd love to but it's always been every time just like oh

So I can see, you know, your priorities can be skewed a little bit. A hundred percent. I'm right there with you. I mean, it's like, there's been a lot of years when I thought about going over to Washington and like hunting white tails and patterning them during the summer. And like that first week of September and you know, when it opens and try to, you know, get a buck then, but I always enjoyed hunting them during the rut and it was something to do later. So I waited until November, um, plus the elk bug. So like you, I'm like, I want to be chasing elk. I don't want to be out.

dinking around chasing a deer so um utah when i lived there was kind of fun because you could actually chase them in august you know up in the high country so i felt like it never cut into my september so that was great but once i moved away from there kind of now i'm back on the elk game so well i don't feel too sorry for you um we'll talk about your game here soon enough

But you had kind of a wild story with your bear last spring. I got this text and you're like, I got a bear, but I can't find the dang thing. And then, you know, all this crazy stuff happened. And then kind of walk us through that. That was kind of a funny story. And I like to make, I'd made funny a little bit, but it was all in, come from a place of love. Yeah, man, that, um,

I spent a lot of days up looking for a bear last year. I think it was like 16 days or something like I had like total like trying to find a bear from April until the end of May. I ended up finding this big bear. Well, actually, I hadn't seen a bear for a couple of weeks at that point. And that morning I spot one in the middle of the highway on my way up to my spot in the right at daylight and I was running behind.

And, uh, had this giant bear across the road right in front of me and ran on some private and I was whatever. So I take off up in the Hills where I was going to sell like an hour to go, get up there and, um, sit glass till, I don't know, it was like 11 o'clock or so nothing. And then I was seeing these turkeys back to my turkey.

So I they were down in the bottom of this by this creek way down in this hole. So I decided to grab my shotgun and go and chase a bird instead of a bear. So I take off, dive clear down in this hole, like a mile from the truck. And I'm getting set up on the bird and I start calling the birds coming and it's coming around this tree. And I'm like, I'm finally going to kill one of these things like this is great. Like I'm going to shoot this big tom.

And, uh, then I look up past the Tom, like over in the hillside and I see something black at like 300 yards. And I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. Um, and I instantly realized it's like a big bear. And, uh, so long story short.

I throw my binos up. I look, realize it's a huge bear. And I hike clear back out of there. Didn't even shoot the turkey and it's spooking the birds off. Didn't even shoot this turkey. Well, you know what? If Ryan Lampers is listening to this, then he would probably be mad if you had a shot the turkey. He'd be like, what's wrong with you, man? He probably would. It gives me enough grief anyways. So I hike clear back up out of there, get back to my glassy knob, grab my gun, get all set up.

And I'm watching this whole, I sat there all day till dark, never seen the bear. I'm like, crap. So I go back up the next day, nothing. And it was like a week later. I go back up there and I knew this bear had to be in that area because there's a bunch of elk that were getting ready to calve down in the bottom. And it's right at the end of May. And I had Kylie with me. We come around this corner and there's this meadow down in the bottom with a wet, just like that skunk.

cabbage grass stuff in it like just a spot where you should see a bear feeding and i've looked in there and looked in there for the last three years and never seen one in there we come around of course she she looks out the window and i stop and she goes there's a bear stand down there in your meadow yeah i'm like what i'm like no stop lying and i thought she was pulling my leg

And, uh, she's like, no, I'm being serious. There's a bear standing on there. Well, of course, instantly once I realized she was being serious, I flew out of the truck and grabbed my gun because I thought, you know, I knew it was, I had to be that bear because where I spotted them the couple of days or the week before it was like down three quarters of a mile from there. And, um,

I bail out, go around the front of the truck down over the hill. And it's like this like lodge pole, thick timber crossed and my short legs. I can't really crawl over anything. And, you know, so I was like scrambling in this bear is only down there like 250 yards and I'm trying to get a rest, but it's so steep downhill through this timber and I can't find anything. So finally I find this down tree and I lean across it.

And I pulled a total rookie move and I put the barrel on the, on the tree and,

And but it was so steep. I kind of had to to lower my stock, you know, that like inch and a half, two inches at the stock is right there down to get the barrel to get the angle. If I was taller, I wouldn't have had that problem. But I put the barrel on the thing and I wasn't thinking about the harmonics of the barrel. And I dialed the gun. It was like two or 36 yards, touched it off. And all I hear is Kylie, you missed.

And she's yelling down through the trees behind me. And I'm like, there's no way I missed that bear. And I look and he's just standing there. I'm like, oh, so I jacked my shell in. Boom. Same thing. Just stand there. She's like, you missed. And I just hear a voice echoing down through the timber. And I, of course, at this point, I'm pissed. I'm like, how did I miss that bear? Well, he runs that time under this big tree. And it's like the only tree in the meadow. So I'm like feeling pretty safe that like he's not going to be able to get away.

And I go down through the timber more, but I had to get another angle now to like look at this tree. Well, finally, he takes off running out across the meadow. By that time, I had moved positions, though, and got on another tree. Well, that time I put the stock on the tree and kind of had my hand like rested against in the stock and kind of everything lean across my arm. And he runs out across and I figures like 300 yards. I touch it off. Boom.

hear the bullet hit. And I'm like, I know I hit that bear. And, uh, he take course at that point too, when it hit him, he went into like overdrive, like turned on the afterburners. And I was like, okay, that bears hit. So I hike all the way back up through this crap to the truck. And Kylie's like, Oh, I don't think you hit it. And I'm like, no, I know I hit that bear. And I'm like, did you hear the bullet and watch how fast he ran? And then at that point, I think I text you and I, you know, it was like, Oh, I shot this bear. And

Well, then is when it got wild. So I went around, drove around, had to go clear around and come over on this other hillside and hike down over the top and down in there. And as I start hiking down in there, um, I'm like, well, you should be right around here in this Creek. And I'm like, it's like open grassy meadow and I'm nothing, no bear, no sign of blood, no tracks, no nothing. And then of course on the hillside where I shot from is like this thick lodge pole Jack for like, you can't see five feet. And, um,

Then I started getting kind of nervous. And so I think at that point I had like scoured the whole meadow, looked where like he ran, found kind of his tracks going through the dirt and everything. And well, that's when it started getting a little Western. So at that point, I think I text you again. And I was like, man, like I shot this bear. Like, I know I hit him. I can't find him. I don't know. I swear he's dead. He's got to be right here. And then ended up going up in those trees.

And well, actually, I went up in the trees a little bit and then I backtracked, went all the way back up to the truck and back around and then came down through the timber on top of them that way. And it was so thick I couldn't see anything. And as I started down in the trees, then I heard something coming down at me. I must have got like below him and he was alive. And I'm like, oh, no.

And I hear like a bunch of rustling. And of course, I can't see anything and got my rifle and I have my 10 mil on my vinyl harness, but I probably should have had that. So I kind of like got nervous and I backed out and I just didn't know at that point what was going on. I didn't know. And so I went back to the other hillside, glassing across in the timber, trying to get a look.

I ended up going back around to the clear up to the top, get the truck. And I'm like, let's go back to where I shot from reset, reassess this whole situation. Like something's not right. I didn't know when I heard the noise, if it was him, it was another bear. I was kind of like, not sure what was going on. And, uh, I go all the way back around and look down in the meadow and that thing's laying dead right out in the middle of the meadow where I shot the first shot.

yeah did he just do like a do a big figure eight and come right back or yeah he'd like went up where i shot when i finally hit him on third shot and he ran up the creek draw into the thick trees up through the blowdowns into the jackfurs and then when i circled under him he went around and then came down and

through the jackfurs all the way down. And obviously he was hit pretty good, but I had kind of spooked him and you know, it was on that death run and I ended up following his tracks and he like went straight down through the jackfurs and just happened to like run out of steam and like cartwheeled out into the meadow and was just like laying out in the middle of the meadow. So like he was dead in the timber, but I spooked him and then he'd like ran down and like, you know, ran out of steam a hundred yards down there and like flipped out in the meadow and died.

But I never went back down to the meadow because I'd went clear back around on the road and, you know, glass in trying to see. And then there he was. But yeah, when I went down there, I mean, I hit him. It was he was quartered away on that third shot, but it went up in there and blew up everything. So, I mean, he was, you know, kind of on his last leg, I think, when I spooked him. But.

Yeah, it was just such a weird deal to like go back. And I thought, honestly, when I drove back and got out that it was him standing out in the meadow because, you know, like running away from me. Right. Till I realized he was dead. And then, of course, I couldn't believe it at that point. But then I had to go clear back around and hike all the way back down in there. So, yeah, that's it was it was a good bear. He was actually just got the tooth age back yesterday.

And it was a seven year old bear for a mountain bear. That's pretty big, but he's almost six and a half feet. So, I mean, he's, he's a big, big Montana bear. Yeah. So I have a question. What caliber of rifle were you using? Yeah. So on that one was a six, five PRC.

And I had reloaded some 140 grain burgers and had that gun. And I just shot it a couple of weeks prior at the range doing a bunch of load development and everything was shooting a thousand yards. And I mean, that gun is so deadly, but I think the one thing I just wanted to kill something with it to say that I had shot something with the six five, because I had shot an antelope the year before, but not with that bullet. It was just a factory Hornady loads. So I wanted just to shoot something with that load. Um,

But now looking back, I wish I'd have had like my seven Psalm with like a burger one 80 or something bigger. I won't be shooting a bear with a six five anymore. Right? Well, I was going to say, um, you should probably invest in probably the, the most deadly, uh,

rifle in the world, the six, five Creed more. I mean, it's a, it's going to take it up a notch from that six, five PRC. It's the six, five Creed more. You look it up. Yeah. Lots of, there's a lot on the internet about that. Yeah. I'll, uh, I'll take your word for that. Uh, I heard, I heard those guys use the Maverick too. Yeah. Yeah. They, they, they do. They do. I mean, I

It's a deadly, it's a real thing. So fast forward, uh, to elk season. So archery elk season, um, you're just hunting Montana this year, at least last past year. Um, how'd that go? Um, it was fun. Um, we kind of went back to a spot that we've had some luck in the past and, uh, fortunate enough to, to get a tag.

And, um, I was really looking forward to it. Spent a lot of time, you know, kind of scouting the summer, like I've done in the past, found some really good bulls kind of set my target on a couple. And, um, man, I went over opening weekend, just like you talk about hunting the first week of September and it didn't open till I think the sixth or seventh this year here. And, uh, it was hot. The elk weren't doing much pretty. I mean, I, I found some, but it was total summer mode.

So I spent the first week, um, really just trying to find a couple of the bowls that I'd found during the summer and, um, had some close calls on a couple and yeah, it was, it was interesting. And then all of a sudden we got a rainstorm that moved in here and anyone that knows Montana and the gumbo mud, um,

that makes a mess in a hurry. So, um, I ended up having to move my trailer and get it on some gravel. And then, um, the rain hit and I thought, Oh, I'll kind of feel it out and see what happens. It was so bad. Like even the gravel road turned to straight mud. I barely got my trailer out and like four wheel drive down the gravel for a long ways. And, um, it was a disaster. So, um, ended up coming, I took a week off and then, um,

ended up coming back with Kylie and then she had her Kylie's your wife Kylie Kylie's my wife we call her Kyle and

And she's kind of like your main hunting partner too. Um, you know, you've kind of like doubled down on your, on your relationship of marriage and, and hunting partner. And, uh, some people, um, I mean, you might take some people off guard if you say, yeah, I've been sleeping with my hunting partner. I tell them that about my hairstylist. I'm like, I haven't been sleeping with my hairstylist. Well, that's my wife. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, yeah. That might throw some people off. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but,

But yeah, so took her back. She had a week off and actually nine days and she'd saved her vacation all year. That was kind of all she had left. And we went for it and she kind of had her own battle. She was dealing with this year versus a normal hunting season for her. Well, you had an extra...

You had a, a, a plus one in your hunting group. We did. We had a plus one. We had a, we had a bean in the oven. So a bun in the oven, so to speak. She was with child. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, so it was, it was exciting for both of us, you know, and something, obviously I knew that was going to change and, um, you know, affect how we hunted a little.

And she's like, we'll just see how it goes. And so we started hunting. A couple of days went by. Actually, the first morning she goes out and she says, I just want to kill a bull with my bow. Like that was her goal this year. At that point, she was 27 weeks pregnant. And she says, I just want to kill a bull. Cool. She don't care if it's 400 inches or 40 inches. Yeah. It didn't matter. You know, like she was shooting one. So daylight happens. We have a bachelor group of bulls coming up the hill to us.

And I'll never forget this. And I'm like behind this tree and I start cow calling and there's like, I don't know, six, eight bulls maybe coming towards us. And I bail over the backside of this hill and I'm watching her and I see horns start coming over the skyline and she's hid by this tree. And this like 280, 90 inch, like he's, he's like a six, but basically a huge five. And he had like a kicker on the one side and make him a six and like a small crab on the other. But he just had huge fronts.

Good thirds, nice solid bull. And the thing walks and he's like walking head on right at her. And I'm like, hmm, well, it's going to get interesting, but he's going to dive off the backside and come looking for me. So he's going to turn broadside. So they're like 18, 19 yards from her. And I'm thinking she's going to draw her bow. Nope. So let's walk off. And the thing walks right down to me. And I'm just like, why didn't we shoot that? And all these other bulls are kind of coming right behind a bunch of rag bulls and stuff.

And finally, the bull ends up smelling us. Spooks runs off. I go up to her and I'm like, what was that? Something happened with your bow? Like, what's going on? Like, why didn't you shoot that bull? You said you're just killing anything. She goes, what's the first morning? She's like, I want to shoot something bigger than that.

I looked at her and I go, you said we are killing anything. And I said, now on top of that, we're trophy hunting and we're 27 weeks pregnant. I said, Oh, Oh, we just added some to this. So anyway, so she lets his bull walk the first morning and, uh,

Of course, you know, at that point, then things don't go as planned after that. Oh, yeah. And it was hot. And I was kind of thinking, man, like you just kind of had like the bird in the hand and just let it go. And.

so we hunted had some good opportunities close calls like the next like five days i mean we had bulls like on us making moves um just things weren't going right for her one morning she decided to do some logging and uh she shot like two arrows at the same bulls shot a tree two different times on the same bowl

shot another tree and another bowl. And I hope she doesn't listen to this. She'd be so mad. You told on her. Yeah. She's going to be, she's going to be furious. So she literally logged the whole forest. And, uh, so long story short, um, we hunted and fast forward, she made like the whole week. So it was like day nine. And, uh, I'm thinking, uh,

Things are, well, she had a really close call that morning and we had two big bowls that came in. One bowl was just this giant cool bowl and he had a broke off right side, but he had his two brows. And then his other side, he had kind of this club thing going on, but like, like a eight on the one side, like just this giant, huge, crusty old bowl. He was just cool. And we almost killed him. And then she ended up

almost getting a shot at like a 306 that morning and then um we had another bull come by us too there was two bulls came in they started fighting and they were like 80 yards from her and they were both really good solid six points and um nothing happened no shots and so we walked back to our packs and

And it was getting warm out. She's like, I need to go back, get some lunch, regroup, take a nap. She's like, I'm feeling really tired today. And I didn't think she was going to make nine days period. And she ended up making it. So as we're walking back to our packs, we literally get to our packs, set our bows down, look up. And there's like a three 56 point, like walking by like 40 yards. And neither of us had a bow in our hand. Oh my God. And I was like, are you kidding me? And I'm like, like trying to signal to her, like pick her bow up.

she doesn't see what's going on she just stands up bull takes off so we end up hiking out of there we come back there in the evening because we knew there was a bunch of bulls in that area and um it was about i don't know 5 30 maybe and i look about 1200 yards off and i see this bull um nice big seven point i mean i never laid eyes on him before he's just a big old bull and he only had two cows

And we've been dealing with a lot of elk and there's like 30, 40, 50, 70 cows like every day, depending on how the herds are mixing. And we just had elk running all over. So it was really hard to kind of get close, get a shot. And that night when I seen that elk with those two cows, I was like, this is it. We're killing this thing. The wind was in our face. We just had to go straight at that elk and cut down in these junipers and like climb a canyon up on the other side and it'd be perfect. We'll call them right in. She's looking at me. Time's passing. Let's sit and see what they do. All of a sudden it's like six.

She's like, I can't go over there. And I'm like, it's like 1200 yards. Like, that's not that far. We won't be there in like 20 minutes. And she's like, no, it's, we're not going to make it by dark. You know, it's getting darker. Like what? Like seven 30 ish maybe. And she goes, uh, I'm not going to make it. I said, no,

Well, you're going to make it. We're going. And she looked at me and she's like, and there's times like when we're hunting together, like if people knew the dynamic between the two of us, it's kind of like I'll push her because I know what she's capable of and what she can do. And I know she's pregnant and everything, but it's kind of like, you know, one of those things that like I know she can do it. It's just trying to like at this point with the pregnancy and convince her. And of course, I didn't want to wear out. And she goes, well, what would the guys do?

I said, well, the guy, we'd already been over there 45 minutes ago. That thing would have been dead. And she's like, well, I'm not one of the guys. I said, well, we call you Kyle. I said, you're one of the guys. I said, so we're going. This ain't the little itty bitty teeny tiny bowl. This is the big old bowl, the Super Bowl 59. Get in on the action at DraftKings Sportsbook, an official sports betting partner.

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Like I've ever went in on an elk in my life and I'm literally like couple steps turn around look see what she's doing couple more steps look she's behind me and I'm just kind of taking my time and we get down in this juniper stuff and we start going through this kind of creek and like climbing up this hill and it was nasty and

And I bugle, the bull cuts me off and I'm like, yeah, we got to shut up and just like get up to the top and cow call. Like once we get up there, we'll get set up. And I thought when we popped out of the trees and be able to see him and we couldn't, and it was perfect. There was like 50 yards in a rise broke over and then you couldn't see the elk in the meadow and are in that kind of this flat. So it was perfect cover for us. We get set up and I got her next to this tree to my left.

And she's about, I don't know, 40 yards from me maybe. And I get kind of down over the edge and I cow call. The bull cuts me off and I kind of peek my head up. And all of a sudden I see ears like the cows, the two cows just walking right at us. Here come the horns. The bull's walking right at us. And I'm like, oh, I knew this was just going to be perfect. And all of a sudden she's ready. The cows walk right into like 15 yards and the bull's at 25 and just stops, rips his big old bugle. And he's like broadside to her.

And, um, I was like thinking, man, just draw back and just shoot that thing. And the lead cow kind of turned her head, looking back at the bowl. And she started to draw and then the cow whipped its head back around and Kylie locked up. And that's one of those moments I think is like an experience, you know, like bow hunter, like, and she is, I mean, she's killed a couple with her bow now and done it, but it's like, not like she's killed 20, you know? And so, um,

Um, she kind of just froze. And I think if she just would have drawn back, it would have got that split second where ever all the, the, both those elk and the bull would have just stared at her and she would have got a shot. Instead, she just was kind of like waiting for them to take the attention off of her to finish drawing, had to kind of like let her bow back down. She started shaking, uh,

And right as that happened, they take off and they start running right towards me and they start spinning and looping out. And I start cow calling and I look over at her like thinking she's going to draw her bow and she didn't draw her bow. And I'm like, crap, I don't know what to do at this point. And all of a sudden she goes, she just yells, shoot. And I was like, OK. And so I just ripped my bow back.

And, um, the bull, I'm mewing like crazy in the bull, just spins, stops quartered away. And I put my 50 pin cause I'd ranged a piece of sagebrush before at 44 when they were coming in. And, um, he ran right behind it and then stopped and, um, end up burying the arrow and ran off. He only went like a hundred, maybe a hundred yards and that was it. So, um, wasn't like the most ideal situation, you know, with like, uh,

or not getting the shot and everything. But I mean, you know, it's dead. So, well, it's funny because you made a social media post about it. You know, you kind of give a thousand word essay on what happened, kind of a shorter version of what you just said explained. And, uh, uh, and, and, uh, everybody was reading it. And then pretty soon everybody started commenting, you know, like yada, yada, yada.

pushed my wife down and shot her elk. That's probably the true story. No, I know. Yeah. I just told her, get out of the way. I'm killing this bull. Yeah. Good, good hunting partner. Yeah. So she was probably feeling energetic and probably packed like, uh,

a front shoulder and a, and a hind quarter and the rack out for you guys when you were packing. Yeah, she did awesome. Like I didn't have to do it. She was, she cut the whole elk up, did everything. She is a real champ. So true team player. Yeah. She's a trooper, man. Putting up with all that, man. Yeah. So no, we, I took care of the whole elk. I didn't make her do anything. And it was, it was fun. And then the next morning, do we want to talk about that? Sure.

The next morning was kind of the heartbreaker. Um, she'd put in all this time. We had one morning left and, uh, got up. We got in late, ate dinner, didn't even go to bed. I shoot. It was like two 33 in the morning. And, uh, we ended up getting up, take off at daylight. Didn't hear a bugle, nothing. All these elk had like disappeared. Not sure where they went. There was a huge herd. She's getting frustrated. And, um,

I was like, we got to go check one more spot. So we go check this other spot. I bugle bull bugles come over the top, get all set up, get down in on him. He's coming in. And then some cattle from the ranchers, there's some cattle around the area. They ended up getting the middle of the elk and busting them. They ran off. And so we take off hike all the way down this Ridge. She's like, I'm done. I'm giving up. I'm over it. Like it's, I put in my, my time and, um,

Like, okay, like, you know, like you got a couple hours here. Like, let's just go after this. So we go all the way down. Papa finally talk her into it again, go over this hill. And I ended up calling this bull in and he runs on a dead run and her being pregnant got her. If she wasn't pregnant, she would have killed this bull like instantly. And he comes running around this hill head on to her at like five yards.

And it's like a three 47 by seven, like just big bull, almost like the one that I killed the night before. And, um, comes around Caesar and she couldn't turn her feet quick enough because she was watching her feet being pregnant. She didn't want to fall over. Oh, and so she didn't want to trip. And I totally understand that the bull runs down. I stop him at 40 and, um, broadside. She drew a bow back and,

And then he kind of moved. And then right as all that happened, the sun was like right there coming over the hill. And she like looked through her peep.

And I stopped him when he ran forward and he stopped. I stopped him again. She shot. And she said that the sun like kind of came right in her peep. And anyway, she ended up hitting that bull ducked, but she hit it right in the back strap and he ran off. And this is like the kind of the craziest thing that I've seen in a while. That bull literally had his arrow or her arrow sticking out of his back. And I called him back in to like 50 and

And then he turned around and went down. There was another bull with some cows. Like I stand up spot and like three quarters of a mile away, that bull ran all the way down there and started fighting that other bull with an arrow sticking out of its back and was trying to just take those cows. He was so rutted up, didn't even care, but we should have killed two big sevens in like 12 hours. So, I mean, if you guys would have done that, I mean,

What do you do at that point? Hang up your bow. Like we're done. We've accomplished the unaccomplishable. I just want to quit hunting. Yeah. I don't, I don't believe you. Probably not. But then, uh, fast forward, you went white tail hunting, uh, in Washington, got a pretty nice buck. No, no, you didn't get a nice, your buddy got one. Yep. Uh, Nick, Nick got one. I couldn't remember. I was like, I think, yeah. And then, um,

I shot an antelope. You shot an antelope. You got, uh, did you, did you and Kyle both get an antelope? No, she ended up, um, missing a really big goat and then didn't want to shoot again with being pregnant with the gun. So I don't, I don't blame her there.

and then mule deer season. What's your opinion on Montana mule deer? Are the numbers down? I keep hearing numbers are down like, uh, numbers of deer and then maybe, uh, age class. Is that, is that what you think that's true? Yeah, I do. I mean, compared to, you know, five, eight years ago, like it's definitely changed. Um, we kind of had that rough winter and I would say numbers are down. I think there's still a few good bucks to be had, but, um, I think you're really going to work for them pretty hard. So, um, I mean, I spent, I mean, we, I, I,

I hunted hard and killed a decent buck, but I mean, not, you know, 180 inch trophy deer, but I mean, it's, it's a nice buck, but, um, yeah, I mean, we saw some, a lot of deer, some good deer. Um, but it wasn't definitely wasn't.

what i would you know say like this is stellar hunting you know i mean we're you know like you would have had we definitely need to make some changes here um and i know that there are some changes coming down the pipe in montana where they're talking about moving deer season um mule deer season i guess like into october and um changing that and you can't really hunt the rut anymore which um i think you know i'd be okay for that but i know a lot of people wouldn't be but um yeah

It's kind of a unique, you know, area right now. It's, you can't hardly hunt mule deer in the rut anywhere, you know, with a high powered rifle. So, um, you know, you, you kind of look at like what's, what's given, but what's gained, like you may give up that rut hunt, but man, it's,

in five years you're going to have incredible mule deer hunting again. Um, so I mean, to me, it's worth it, you know, being a steward and a, and a sportsman, I don't, I don't mind to kind of, you know, cutting things back here and there to, to, to better the herd for sure.

Yeah, I'm, I'm with you. I think, you know, if we did make a change, um, you know, and it's like, take that out of, take the rut, like the rifle out of the rut. They, what they're proposing is you could still hunt whitetail, which there's a, I mean, a pile of whitetail for guys, if they want to hunt, you know, whitetail here, um, uh, and which I'm all for. Um, but

But if you could take some of the mule deer out and limit tags and, you know, a handful all Eastern Montana, like, you know, if you could just limit the amount of tags over there, a lot of people don't see it this way. But it's like, man, even if you only got to hunt them every two, three years, but, you know, you could go out and like have a chance at like a nice, you know, mature big buck and, you know, 170 inch plus deer.

I mean, I would be all for that, but I know a lot of people think that you're just taking opportunity away and they don't get to hunt. And Eastern Montana, you know, it's easier deer hunting, you know, than other places than climbing the mountains in Western Montana. So I understand it, but.

I don't know. Um, I guess. Yeah. But you know, back to your opportunity. It was like, yeah, you have an opportunity to have a tag and get out there and hunt, but you hear a lot of feedback from a lot of camps that are saying, yeah, we hunted hard for eight, 10 days. And we saw a three point, a little three point was as big as we saw or a Forky. Like they're just not seeing, you know, and then deer numbers, you know, we're way down. And so it,

In my mind, it's like, man, it's a lot of effort, you know, for a lot of different people to get to that part of the world, whether you're driving across states or if you're a resident even driving across that state to go over there and have the opportunity to hunt something like that, that you're just probably not interested in taking home with you. You know, maybe it, you know, maybe it's okay to, you know, do it every other year, every third year or something to where the animals will come back.

Yeah, 100%. And I do feel for the non-residents in a way, you know, coming over here because, I mean, I used to be one, but it's like when you drive that far and, you know, spend the money, especially on a non-resident tag and you come over here, it's like, I understand you want to fill your tag before you go back home because you've invested so much. And I get that 100%, but it's also, I mean, you could have a chance to come over here and especially as a non-resident now, you're probably only going to come hunt Montana every two, three years.

And so it's like at that point, if you could limit, you know, some of the hunting and change things for a little bit, um, man, like, wouldn't you want to come here from an out of state perspective? And you're like, man, I went to Montana and shot a nice, big, solid four point buck or, you know, some big mature deer. I mean, I don't know. I mean, I guess it just depends what you're after. I know we're all after different experiences and, um,

You know, some of them, like I'm okay eating my tag. You know, it's like, I don't really care. Like I want to shoot a nice mature deer. Um, just like Washington, you know, it's like white tails and stuff like that. Like I didn't shoot one, had one buck in particular I was after. And, um, I'm okay. Like I ended up getting the weather, got the best of me and snowed out because I was in a rental truck and stuff, but, um, it is what it is. So, yeah. Well, I always like to say, I like to be part of the solution, not part of the problem. So I, that anytime I, um,

you start weighing in on those kinds of things. Like I always try to look through it at that, with those kinds of lenses and be like, you know, is this, is this solving problems or is this creating, adding to the problem? It's like, well, you know, take my selfish wants out and be like, okay, you know, maybe I don't have to, you know, be, you know, hunt as much or, you know, I could pass out or I give up a little season or give up a little this or that to, to have a better experience when I do get to go. So, yeah. Um,

Hey, I want to switch gears here a little bit. And, uh, it's time for the Pendleton whiskey Q and a it's not just poured it's earned. And I keep getting this question sliding into my DMS on Instagram. And I'm, and I'm sure you probably get them too. Um,

Um, what's your workout routine? No, just kidding. On Instagram, I'm listed as a fitness model. Yes. But I'm pretty sure nobody's going to ask me for my workout routine. But, uh, the question is, and I've got this one for years. Um, how do I get into the hunting industry? Uh, what's your take on that, John? Man, um, I've definitely got that question a lot too. Um, especially doing what I do for work.

Man, that is a very loaded question. And I guess let's kind of like start here. Like, are you just wanting to get into the hunting industry because you're

You see guys and you think that all we do is hunt and we go on these hunts and get all this free gear and get all this big money. Or are you wanting to get into the hunting industry because it's your passion and you want to go work for a company and like make your career out of that. So it's something you want to do for the next 30 years and retire, you know? So I guess let's kind of like dive down the one rabbit hole because I

I started my business almost 14 years ago and maybe longer, somewhere in that ballpark. I was doing stuff before that, but officially with my business, but yeah,

Yeah, you know, it was kind of like I wanted to be in the industry because I saw that and I thought, oh, man, all these guys are going to go hunt for a living and they're going on all these big extravagant hunts, all this free gear, free bows and, you know, sights and all you name it, you know, elk calls like whatever. It was like that's kind of how I perceived it, I guess, you know, in the beginning.

And, um, the one thing that I will say all these, these years later down the road, yeah, I work way more now than I probably would if I just worked a nine to five somewhere and, uh, and just went and decided to go and, you know, um, hunt and enjoy my time hunting.

Are there perks of being in the industry? Yeah, sure. I mean, there's times you might get a, you know, call and get a free bow or get this or, you know, some free gear here and there.

But that also comes at a cost because, you know, it's like one of those things that now those companies generally want something in return. And so you go on a hunt or go to the archery range or you're at home and, you know, you have to go and provide and produce this content for them because they want that in return to help promote the product. So now you've just added another layer of work to your career in the hunting industry per se. Right.

And so you really can stack it up in a hurry to where you're not just hunting. I mean, how many times have we been in the woods and, you know, it's like, oh, hey, we got to get that this shot for so and so we got to hold on. We got to get this video for them. We got to do this. And it's like you spend a lot more time working than necessarily not.

But I think if you want to get in the hunting industry and like you just wanted to be like a part of it, there's I've met so many great people. I mean, obviously yourself. And I mean, you know, you've been one of my best friendships, you know, for years. And it's like.

there's a lot of good people that we've met, you know, and Jason and, you know, Phelps. And, um, I mean, Chris Pascoe, I mean, we could go down the list and start naming people, but it's like so many great people in different States. And you know, that we all come together and I feel like we go to these shows and we don't always get to see each other throughout the year. And we ended up going to the hunt expo in salt Lake or like these other shows just to like get in one room together to be able to go and, you know, have a good time, have dinner together. But that side of the hunting industry, uh,

It's like, I don't know, are people wanting to be in it for the friendships? Are they wanting to be in it because they think that it's like this glamorous thing that they get to hunt all the time and get all this free stuff? Because, I mean, we still pay for our own stuff at times. So, you know, it's like not a not just this gravy train of I want to be in it. But if you do it for the right reasons, I mean, there's definitely some good to come from it.

Oh yeah. Yeah, definitely. I agree. Yeah. The first thing, yeah, you nailed it. Like define what you're trying to get out of it. Um, are you trying to,

have a career, like just a nine to five job in the hunting industry. You're like, well, I got to work for some industry. Do I, um, I might as well be in the hunting industry. Cause I like that kind of stuff. Um, do you think, oh, I'm going to, I want to get into the hunting industry because I love to hunt. I have a passion. I really, really like hunting and I want to do it.

For a living. So you have to like, like quantify it. Like that's a very, okay. That's like the very entry level, like thought process. Like, I really love it. I want to do it for a living. Well, you have to like, consider like, how is, how is someone going to pay you?

for you to go hunting and because you love hunting, like it's kind of a funny loaded question. It's like, you have to like look beyond that. Like, well, we all love hunting. I mean, there's not a single person that goes hunting consistently that doesn't love hunting. So you have to kind of, um,

figure out like, okay, well, what is it that I can bring to the table to get paid for or get compensated for? Um, I think people look, they, I think they watch outdoor TV a lot, you know, and they'll, they'll watch all these hunting TV shows and, you know, all the different characters and, and they're like, oh yeah, you know, that those guys just, man, they have so much fun and they go kill stuff. And, you know, they rep all these brands and stuff, but

Like you said, you know, um, you get all this gear or sponsors or stuff. You have deliverables, right? You have, you know, X, Y, Z, you have to provide photos. You have to provide content. You have to provide, you have to use their stuff. Like what if you make a commitment and you're like, I am going to use your stuff and you start using it. You're like, Oh, this is trash. I, I,

I hate this X, Y, Z, uh, fabric softener, whatever, you know, that you're trying to use for your hunt. You're like, Oh, but you're locked in. You're, you said you'd do it. You have to do it when you're hunting. That kind of, that takes away. It's like, okay, now it's a job. Right. So, I mean, there's a lot of things to think about there. Yeah. And to add to that, I think like one thing, um,

You know, it's like there's so many kids out there nowadays, too, that have a camera. And, you know, it's kind of like a major league baseball player or a football player, like professional, like whatever. It's like, you know, when you're smaller, you start and, you know, there's little league and like all these things and into high school and then college ball, like in the pot starts getting smaller and smaller and smaller and pretty quick to actually make it to the major league.

you know, it's like, there's only a tiny percentage that do it. And it's one of those things that the people that have these TV shows and do that, it's like, there's so many people out there with cameras now going around the woods, filming their hunts and doing things that the ones that truly get paid. I mean, it is like this little fraction that even receive any income. And, um,

So at that point, it's like you better enjoy hunting because you love to hunt. And if you're okay with just doing some content and trading for a free bow or, you know, backpack or like whatever, all these companies now too, and I hear this a lot because I work with a lot of them, is that they absolutely get bombarded with all these people now like, hey, I'll give you photos. Like I'll make, I'll give you some video content.

Well, the problem is, as the more and more people that do that, now it makes it harder and harder and harder for anyone to get any money because they're giving away their money in product.

To so many people in return for content. Now they don't have any money left to like pay. So it's like if you think that you're going to come in and just all make the most killer videos and we'll do this whole series and do all this stuff and you're going to, you know, I want $100,000 check. And it's like, I mean, those that's so like.

Far fetched to even kind of think that. And I'm not saying that to like squash people's dreams and this and that. And because, I mean, it's like, I've been there one day too. And,

I think I've lived it. And it's like, I just realized that, you know, it's like if you have a skill set or something that you can do, um, like myself with like designing and building websites and those types of things where it's like, but I'm actually like working with the companies to try to help them make money and progress and do their thing. But that I'm not making money, uh,

Even though people think I'm in the hunting industry, I am. But it's like I'm helping companies like, you know, I could do the same thing if it was, you know, someone selling dog food, you know, and like helping them do that. It's the same thing. So it's like you almost want to go and into it and be like, hey, I want to go work for a company.

like a Phelps you know like I'm just you know throwing you out for example it's like go work and learn what they do and maybe the perk is maybe I get to go on an elk hunt this year and like go spend time or go do this and like you kind of get rewarded in different ways you know so I guess it just kind of depends like you know what what you're what you're wanting out of it to and what you want to achieve.

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Well, I think that there's a big misconception that you're just going to get paid a lot of money if you work in the hunting industry. You look at the folks on outdoor TV, literally like the Sportsman Channel or Outdoor Channel.

to produce a TV show, they want a couple hundred thousand dollars. I mean, I'm not sure what the, it is exactly, but it's, it's a large sum of money for you to put your content on their platform. Okay. Right off the bat. So then you go after sponsors. So the sponsors, basically the, the, the platform eats up all the money from your sponsors. So, um,

And that's why I think there's a lot of these like, like literal TV personalities. They kind of have some money already, right? They're not depending on sponsors paying their, their, their, their money to, to buy food and electricity and pay their cell phone bill. Right. They actually have money already somehow.

maybe from working hard at a completely unrelated industry. Maybe they, you know, had some old money in the family, whatever. A lot of, I think a lot of those folks, you know, you know, they found a way to do it, but it takes a ton of money. So outdoor industry, but then you look at YouTube,

So you're like, oh, well, it doesn't cost me anything and YouTube will pay me. People have a huge misconception of what, how much money you can make off of YouTube videos. You get paid by YouTube per thousand views on your video. Okay. So every thousand views you get paid.

Now, if you're doing hair and makeup and maybe some cooking that has nothing to do with hunting, but just kind of domestic life, those kind of people, they'll make anywhere from $5 per 1000 views to seven or $8, depending on, on what,

advertisers will pay. How do, how does YouTube pay? Well, that people put that put ads, the, the little, the little commercials on YouTube, that's who pays them. So it's all a bid. Now we, nobody really knows exactly how it works, but basically these advertisers bid and they say, we'll pay this much for this, for this kind of, um, programming. We'll pay this much for our ad to be there. So, you know, I think that what you get paid is always fluctuating.

Now I have some friends that have a really popular outdoor hunting channel. He was showing me behind the scenes on how much they were getting paid. They got paid 33 cents per 1000 views, 33 cents per 1000 views. So, um,

Put that in your pipe and smoke it. I mean, that's, that's, that's nothing. I mean, when you consider the production costs, you have to pay a cameraman, you have to buy tags, you have to pay for fuel, you have to buy your food. I mean, you can spend $10,000 if you have to pay a bonafide camera person between camera permits, everything you're going to spend, you could spend up to $10,000 just for a non-resident hunt somewhere.

So for those 33 cents per 1000, man, you better have a few million people watch your videos. Right. Yeah. So on some of mine, I'll be transparent on my bugler YouTube. I think I've gotten around three to $4 per 1000. Now they're not, they're not they're not viral videos. Right. And, you know, I don't have a million people watching my stuff.

And I haven't put any real new content on there in quite some time, but the residuals, the residual stuff that's on there, I get a couple hundred bucks a year basically paid from YouTube. So not a lot of money, not, I mean, you can't even buy a non-resident tag anywhere for that kind of money. So people kind of think they have this misconception. You're going to make a lot of money if you get in the industry and start cranking out content right away.

One of the things I like to recommend is, and you kind of alluded to this a little bit on your job and your craft, is become an expert, right? I don't care if you're talking about what kind of industry you're in. I don't care if it's automotive, whatever. Become an expert and you will find an opportunity, right? So for instance, I am really good with L-calls.

I've been elk hunting for 35 years. The first four years, I literally hunted every single day of September, every year I was in high school. By the time I graduated high school, I had more elk hunting time in than most adults have in a lifetime, right? And then it just compounds from there, right? So I feel like...

I don't want to try to come off conceited, but I feel like I'm a subject matter expert on elk hunting to a certain degree. Do I learn stuff every year? Absolutely. I'm always learning more, but I have a lot of reps and I have a, and I'm, I'm pretty damn good at using an elk call. Now,

I found a spot. I worked for an elk calling company. There there's, there's my niche. There's my niche. Now, if you're trying to be like, okay, cool. Well, I'm going to be an expert. We have to look at the industry and think, okay, where are the gaps within that industry? Okay. We have subject matter experts on bows, on shooting, on air archery, on broadheads, on arrows, whatever it may be. There are some gaps there. Of course, but,

that's the kind of thing that you need to look at. Now, it can't be...

it can't be something forced. You can't be saying, well, I'm going to do this just because I want to all the clicks and the likes you literally have to like, you have to be passionate about it. You have to be a hundred percent real. Um, and I think, you know, that's why I've done well. Cause I, I live and breathe this, whether I had a job, um, working for a call company or not, I've lived and breathed elk hunting my entire life. Um, back when I

had, you know, maybe a week, a year to hunt. I've used that week. If I had weekends, I use that week. I mean, I was always elk hunting and, um, enjoying it. So I didn't really set out to like get an industry job in my life. I'm didn't say like someday I'm going to get a job in the industry. No, I just worked hard at my craft because I loved it. And one day I got noticed and things start, doors started opening up. And I think you have to really look at it that way.

But it's not easy. You can't just say, cool, well, I'm going to learn how to use an elk bugle. I can bugle really good. I'm going to go get a job for a call company tomorrow or next year. And I mean, you're going to have to work your ass off. You have to work your ass off to get to that point of being an expert. And then once you become an expert, you're going to have to continue to work your ass off.

A hundred percent. And you know, unless you just want to go like work for that call company and like, maybe you want to try to get your foot in the door and just like stock boxes, you know, shipping orders, like doing whatever or customer service or like some way to kind of work your way into it. Um, but I'm, I agree with everything that you said, 110%. Um,

You know, I grew up working in an archery shop and that was kind of like I loved bows. You know, it was like I loved the idea of archery. And, you know, I still to this day, like I have my own little pro shop, like in my garage.

gun room in my house because I love working on my own stuff and I'm super passionate about it. And that's, I think one thing for me that like, even I don't portray to the outside world, um, but is like my love for like tinkering and like the little things that go on behind the scenes. And I'm such a nerd when it comes to that stuff and tuning my bows and like arrows and like doing all that.

But it's something that like I've kind of kept close to me because I enjoy it so much that it's like the one thing where I'm like, oh, yeah, like I do this and I go out and I'll mess around with my bow and my gun room and like whatever, because it's like my like little hobby, like my passion on the side. I could talk. I could go to any of these shows, you know, and.

talk archery all day long, you know, or guns like anything, but it's like the archery side, like I could go and do that all day because I love it. Like outside of just hunting. Um, obviously I love to hunt, but then, you know, it's like, like my business, you know, um, I was driven to, you know, figure out, I wanted to build websites and taught myself how to do that long time ago and design work and all that obviously went to college and all that. But, um,

You know, it was kind of one of those things that I was so driven. I want my thing like I wanted to own my own business so bad. And it was like it didn't even really correlate to hunting at that time. It was like I wanted to I was driven because I wanted to be so good at like designing or building websites or marketing and like doing stuff like that, like helping companies grow.

It just like went to the hunting industry because I had a lot of passion about it. And there at that time, I mean, there still is. But it was like there was that hole, that niche. And I found my niche and, you know, did it and went for it. And, you know, here I am today. But it was like if you find something that you're passionate about, you can kind of adapt and do that and keep growing, you know, with your knowledge and everything else as times change.

That's where, you know, I think you'll do good and, and, um, you know, succeed. So yeah, there's a lot of ways to get in the industry. If you just want to be in it, if you just want to go work for a company and go to these trade shows and, um,

You know, I feel like some of the shows like the Hunt Expo and, you know, Shot Show and ATA and some of these other shows and Sheep Show and all these. And I feel like people see it on social media and it's like a FOMO thing. You know, they're like, oh, man, there's everyone like all these hunters are there and they're doing this and having a good time together and.

I almost feel like, like you create this FOMO, like people feel like they're missing out and they want to be a part of it. And they feel like they have to be in the industry just to like go and enjoy and like do that. And like I said, it is a lot of fun. And like, you know, we have a good time and talking to people and meeting people and you know, everything. But yeah, I mean, you can go do all that, go work for a company and just enjoy and like have that be one of the perks of your job and love life, you know? So, right. Well, back to that being an expert, I mean,

Being an expert though is like an onion. You say, oh yeah, you do marketing and build websites. But what people don't know, the other things you do, like you're a professional photographer. You have to take stock photo imagery. So John does all of our stock imagery for our elk calls. Um,

Like all that, like you're doing that all the time. Yeah. Video work, you know, let's say somebody wanted you to do something like some kind of video work. You can do that. Like there's so much that you have to perfect and be good at and be an expert on to make this. So you don't just be like, oh yeah, well, I'm going to learn how to, I'm going to be an expert at blowing an elk bugle. Well, people don't know like, okay, well my job, not only do I blow

blowing elk bugle pretty good. And I'm really good at talking to people, um, about elk calls. I mean, that's just, that's like probably the smallest part of my, my job. Um, we film these hunts every fall. Now I may not film them, but I'm editing them. So I have to be an expert at using

Adobe Premiere or whatever kind of platform you want to use to edit your films with. Oh, there's pictures to edit. Oh, I have to edit those too. Oh, John and I, you and I work together on designing...

Um, packaging. So I'm not, I don't have any skills. I can draw something out on a cocktail napkin, but I can say, all right, I want it to look like this. And then we have to have a good enough report to, to work together to find what works, what will work from your standpoint and ours, social media, uh, management. I've got to do all of that. Um, product,

product, um, development, you know, and testing, like it's, it goes way beyond just like, yeah, cool. That sounds good. We'll do it. Like it's so, there's so much to it. So it's like an onion, you kind of pull it back and it's like, you find one more layer that you have to be good at something, um, written word, um, you know,

Now I'm on a podcast. So, you know, I have to build it, talk about stuff with guests and find people that are interesting to talk to. So it just seems to never end, but, but those things are out there. There's all those opportunities out there, but it's not just going to fall into your lap overnight. And honestly, um, you look at,

like industry jobs, you might look at it this way. Some of the, probably the highest paid people into the hunting industry are people in, at a corporate level, you know, at upper management who have a degree. They went to college, they worked and they started out and they worked somewhere else. They probably didn't even start out in the hunting industry and finally got into the hunting industry because they liked the outdoors or they like hunting. And then they spent some time there with successful track records and they climbed the corporate ladder. Now they hold really good jobs with really secure salaries and

in some big companies, you know, those are, those are jobs. Those are the kinds of jobs, you know, a lot of people probably would like to have if they had that skill set, um, manufacturing jobs, you know, whether you're, you know, a machinist or a whatever, whatever kind of, you know, stuff that you could, can, can manufacture. Maybe even if you're just packaging things, I mean, companies have to take it from the idea of

to packaging, to putting it in a box and shipping it. You know, maybe it, maybe it's e-commerce, you know, maybe you're, you're really good at that kind of stuff. You can, you can make a heck of a good, heck of a good living in the outdoor industry in the e-commerce side, or like you, a designer, a photographer, film production, basically any kind of a, you look at any kind of a normal business in any industry, you

Those, those businesses have the same support structure as everything in the hunting industry. So, you know, maybe, maybe you want to work for a hunting company cause you love it, but you have a skillset in accounting or what, or whatever it is. Um, there's a spot for you.

Yeah. I mean, that, that's so spot on. It's like, you know, just like if you're going to go work for Boeing or Amazon or like whatever, um, you know, there's still jobs like that those companies offer in the hunting industry. So it's like, you can go work for someone and have a great career, you know, just working for a company and, um, you know, like they're in,

we, you and I both know a lot of great hunting companies that are out there too. Um, you know, and some of the perks that some of these people get, um, it seems like they get more time off and all this, and I'm over here just slaving away, killing myself with my own business. But, um, you know, it's like people have great opportunities, you know, and they get to go do things and maybe, you know, some of these people in two, you know, it's like maybe they're

They're, um, they want to be in the hunting industry because they idolize some people and it's like, maybe they just want to meet them and do that. And, you know, whatever, whatever it is, it's like this, it is a great industry to be in and you will make awesome friendships. And regardless of what level you are at a company, if you went and work somewhere or doing it on your own or whatever you're doing, um, yeah.

There are some really great people. And I think that's like that in any industry, snowboarding, golf, whatever your passion is, you're going to meet the people and like-minded people. We just all happen to really like hunting and spend a lot of time doing it as much as we can outside of working. And I think that's kind of what it boils down to. But if you want to be in the industry,

I mean, find your niche that something you're good at and then figure out how you want to apply it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, even I've seen guys get at their foot in the door with companies, just getting to know people at a trade show. They'll go up, they'll introduce themselves.

Um, one of our good buddies, um, Cody Wilson, he come up to the Phillips booth years ago and just shot the breeze with us for a whole weekend, you know, and got to know him and just awesome dude, great hunter. Good guy. Um, has a great nine to five job, but he wanted to, he wanted to kind of be part of the hunting industry, you know, cause he enjoyed the people and, and, you know, and every year Cody comes and helps us out at the Phillips booth at, at the trade show at the hunt at the hunting expo in salt Lake.

And, uh, we've built an awesome friendship with him. He went elk hunting with me last fall. Um, just love the guy, but you know, it's, it all starts somewhere, you know? So there's a lot of companies, they, they need those kinds of help or, you know, at trade shows, you know, they, they, they get to know somebody there. Um,

Maybe they're able to come back the next year or to the next show, work as an ambassador. Maybe they'll even get paid. You just never know. There's opportunities to get your foot in the door. And if you're a good person, the sky's the limit, right? Yep, 100%. So anyway, well, I think that'll be, we'll just wrap it up with that thought. The sky's the limit on that.

The hunting industry, you can get in there, but you have to really be specific on really what you're trying to accomplish. What do you bring to the table? And, you know, you can, you can go a long ways. Just like, just like any career, honestly. So that's right. That's right. And one thing we'll kind of add this caveat in there too, because it seems like the YouTube thing, you know, it's kind of, everyone wants to have their own videos and be on YouTube and do all that.

um kind of a final thought on that you know and keep doing your career that you're doing now um you know and kind of you know do this as a side hustle you know like it's your second job you know if you will and start filming and doing things and you know maybe maybe you just want to be recognized by some of these companies or get some gear maybe that's like we kind of mentioned like that's your thing and if that if that's your thought of being in the industry

just do it then like no one, you know, no one's holding you back, but yourself. So it's like, go out and achieve it. And, um, all great things come with a lot of hard work. So put in the hours and punch the time clock and you'll get there. Yeah. Yeah. I think some of the, you know, YouTube creators, they just, they put videos out just because they love it. They want to share their experiences and, and with their friends and family and, and they're not looking for anything other than, you know,

you know, bringing that, you know, bringing joy to other people and they, and they, they enjoy the, the, the, the craft of filming and editing. I, I love film production. Um, I really enjoy it. I like now going through my L cut from this fall. I've been saying a few bad words and it's been a grind, but, um, when you have a good hunt and you can edit that thing up and put it out there and just like,

I find it very satisfying. You know, it's, it's really, it's really fun. So it has to be something you enjoy and it has to be, you know, something you're passionate about. So. A hundred percent.

Well, thanks, man. I really appreciate you coming on. Um, as always, we haven't had you on here for a while, but, uh, appreciate it and look forward to your, your hunting season in 2025. Um, I always get to live vicariously through you and in Montana, cause I probably won't draw the Montana tag again this year, but, but I always enjoy watching you and your wife's adventures over there. So. Yeah. Appreciate that. And likewise, I always, uh,

you know, especially now we got the little one that's going to be, we're going to be toting around with us this year. So that's going to add some new, um, adventures in itself, but I'll be living vicariously through you and Jason and everyone else that's, um, off traveling the States here. So, um, but well, I have a hunch that, uh, you guys will be just fine with that little peanut running around with you. Um, I feel like you're going to have a awesome hunt and a good fall and,

Really good experience. It's never too early to take your kids on. Never. I know. And that's kind of the thing. I mean, spring bear, obviously, I mean, she's six weeks old, I guess now, but it's like spring bear coming in April. Cause right now it's what February 4th. And, um,

Kylie made comment to my dad that we were going spring bear hunting and we were taking her. My dad's like, Oh, you guys might have to go up hunting for a few years. And Kylie said, no, she's coming. We're going. So, I mean, absolutely. It just, just how we do things, but, um, it'll be fine. Yeah.

How did, how did all the native Americans back in the day, you think about it, all these native Americans, of course, you know, the, the women didn't probably go on the hunt too much, but man, they were living like they were camping. Right. I mean, it was, it's a rough existence and those people were just fine. They had babies and moved babies and went across to America. I mean, they were a tough people and I'm like, geez, we have it way better these days with the.

I mean, diapers, wet wipes. Yeah. I mean, you name it, you know, it's at our fingertips. I mean, there's no excuse to not to get out and take kids hunting with you and be out in the woods. Exactly. No, you know, agree a hundred percent. So, I mean, we're looking forward to it. It'll add a new, um,

new level. And I hope it, I'll be honest, kind of my, my main goal this year is just to see Kylie get an elk. And last year we have a picture of her with my bowl that she's holding her baby bump in the picture. And, um, this year I'd love for her to kill one and actually have like little one in her arms, you know, over the elk. So I think that would be kind of just a cool, you know, like full circle thing. And, um,

That's kind of my goal. It'll happen. I can't wait to see it. Thanks again, John. We'll catch everybody on the flip-flop.

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