Ep. 124: Drawing a Line on Technology
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They've got ranches, forests, mountains, streams, you name it. Search by acreage. You can search by location. You can search by the kind of hunting and fishing you're dreaming of. Land.com. It is where the adventure begins. Welcome back to another episode of Cutting the Distance. Today, I've got maybe my favorite guest on. Wow. Yeah, there he is. Hey, Dirk.

Oh, hey there. No, I think I was looking. I said, you're by far my most repeat guest. You probably had 12 or 13 episodes with me that I posted. Holy cow. Wow. So I appreciate having you back. Is this kind of like on YouTube when you get so many appearances, you get like a little cool flack in the mail? I can put it on social media and hang it on my wall.

Yeah, yeah. No, in reality, in all transparency, what happens is when nobody else wants to be on my podcast with me, I resort to Dirk so we can have a conversation. So you're playing second fiddle here, Dirk, but it's kind of a pat on the back and a slap in the face at the same time there. Well, I mean, I'm used to it. You've been my boss for how long? And then you're just like, hey, you need to do this and that. And you just boss me around. I'm like, yes, sir. Yes, sir.

I felt like it was early this morning. We're recording here as all the sportsman shows are getting kicked off and we've got our workers traveling around. And I kind of came to you with my tail between my legs. Like, do you mind hopping on the podcast here early this morning so I don't just talk to myself? And here we are.

Yeah, you interrupted my morning procedure, you know. You put the avocado mask and the cucumbers on your face, over your eyes and stuff. And I had to wipe all that stuff off to do this. So, I mean, you. Well, you look good. You look good. It's been working. Yeah, yeah, thank you. And then you write your avocado toast after you. I did, yeah. Oh, that's such a weird food, but I'm going to leave that alone. Yeah, I wouldn't know what it tastes like and I never will. Yeah.

I do like avocados. I do like toast. I just never thought that we'd put those two together. All right, now we got Dirk here. And it's actually probably the most perfect episode or one of the most. We've disagreed and debated. And we may disagree and we may agree on a lot of these issues. But we want to talk about technology and how it relates to hunting. If there should be a line drawn, if there shouldn't be a line drawn.

How we should, how we look at it. I don't want to say how we should look at it as a group because I think everybody's going to like have their own opinions, right? There's no right or wrong answer. And ultimately it may be up to these fish and wildlife departments that we all love to bag on, but it's not a very easy decision at times, right? What, how are you going to handle this or how are you going to handle that?

Um, and, and I think a lot of just personal opinion, ethics, morals, um, your definition of fair chase comes into these. So we got a list of things and it's going to be more like a yay, nay, a discussion on why or how come. And then, um, we'll move on to the next one. So you realize no matter what your opinion is that I'm going to take the opposite.

I, there's some of them you can't hear though. I don't think, I think we're, we're going to have to agree on some, but I know right off the bat, we're going to disagree on, on some, on the first topic at time. And we will have a good discussion. I think we've had this discussion before, but, and maybe I'll even fight you a little bit and then secretly agree with you. Agree. And like, just real quick. Yeah.

So the first thing, and we've had a lot of conversations on this, some states have banned it, some haven't, like your own, to my knowledge. It's the thermal vision, thermal scopes, thermal imagery movement. You know, there's

I live in the Pacific Northwest where if nobody's hunted here, similar to probably how you hunt in Northern Idaho for whitetails, it's industrial timberlands, clear-cut timber, jack-fur type country, right? You've got different stages of fir trees, hemlock trees in different stages of growth. Mm-hmm.

So the way we hunt typically is you pull up to a landing where you're looking across the canyon, across the draw, and you're trying to look into the face of the clear cut and spot deer. Well, after three or four years, it gets very grown up. And so like around home,

The better black tail hunters or the guys that are able to spot, because you could sit there all day and if these deer aren't moving, you may not spot them. Versus if you can do a quick scan with thermal, move to the next one, even behind somebody that's already looked at it first thing in the morning, you're more effective. We've talked to or met people that are using them in Idaho.

Like effectively, you know, you might be on a hike in in the morning like, oh, shoot, here's deer here. Like, let's not disrupt them. We're like, I'm having to make the decision like I just need to get to this point by daylight. Right. So there's this thermal where it has its its.

pros cons what's your opinion on thermal should it be allowed should take uh should states take that stand and start to limit them um are you are you in your opinion should it be separated between big game versus predators like where are you at on night vision oh and thermal right i think um selfishly i

I think they're awesome and they they're cool. And they're just, they'd be really fun to have a buddy of mine last fall. I was him and I went deer hunting and in North Idaho and there's just, you know, you just don't see a lot of deer, but in your mind you think, Oh,

yeah, but these white tails, you know, they're all, they're all caked up, you know, they're nocturnal, they're this or that, or, you know, and, and you can glass across a big Canyon into some brushy pockets and stuff. And you can sit there all day and you're just like, I'm not seeing no deer. They're just not moving today. Well, you pull out the thermal and, you know, thermals have their limitations. You know, if it's warm, you know, like in September, for instance, once the sun rises, you'd have a hard time seeing stuff to just the ground gets too warm. But when there's snow on the ground, you know,

and the sun comes up, you can, you have some, you have time to, to, to check things out, but you know, um, so you pull up to one of these places and you start glassing around with that thermal and you, you soon realize there are no deer over there. Um, if, if there were, I mean, you can see rabbits like at 800 yards, you can see a rabbit. Um, so it's, they're kind of crazy. Um,

Um, but we did spot some deer and we were, we would sit there and we'd, we'd spot a deer and be like, Oh man, that one's in a brush pile somewhere. I bet it's a really big old buck just hiding out. So you get out the spotter and you can sit there for 30 minutes with a spotter and just tear that piece of brush apart. And then finally you catch an ear. Oh yeah, that's a doe, whatever. So I think, I think if,

We weren't really successful finding a big, well, we did see some bucks and one was like a borderline shooter, but then it was, you know, too far away. It was a crop, you know, we were able to, you know, find it with our glass and, and find it with the glass, even in the open sometimes can be hard. The deer really blend in and, you know, we've been hunting for a long time. We're pretty good with spot and stuff, but.

you know they blend in good but it was it was a no-brainer super easy with the the thermal but the deer was still a long ways away so there was no shooting but i guess the point like you know selfishly you know yeah heck yeah you know when especially when there's not a lot of deer a large deer population you really you really want any legal advantage you can get but ethically

man, I always liked, I always liked to err on the side of the deer. And I know, I know you've always said this and you and I've had a lot of debate about this and I just egg you on cause I want to piss you off cause you're, you feel pretty passionate about it. So I always take the, I always take the opposite side just to wind you up just like you do sometimes with me. Yeah. Um, but, but honestly, you know, yeah, I think definitely think they should be outlawed. I don't think that should be legal. I mean, um, and,

And they're expensive, you know, for the good ones are 8,000, $10,000 for one. So then it becomes back to that game of only rich guys can afford to

To do it. Right. So it just, it's just, it's bad all the way across. In my opinion, it's, it's bad. It's bad optics. Um, it's not ethical. Um, and it's not, you know, there again, you're excluding the everyday hunter, the everyday working Joe, um, who can't afford that kind of crap. And so it's just an unfair advantage in my opinion. Definitely.

Yeah, and then we're going to talk about some of these other things, but when you couple thermal in with maybe long-range ability or a scope that can dial itself, you're like, at what point did I do anything that required some skill or some hunting ability? You know, when we talked to Grandpa, he was always working in the woods, being a good woodsman, being able to walk on logs, being able to be absolutely silent in his white New Balance tennis shoes, white elk hunts. Those were the things that made him successful, and now you're like,

Somebody shows up, scans with thermal, gets their long range, you know, $5,000 long range gun out, clicks their scope. So it adjusts the reticle form. They didn't even have to do that. They, they ordered their ammo from some custom ammo place that maybe, you know, so you know where I'm getting is like this person did nothing but ultimately squeeze the trigger and maybe they drove to that spot at some point. Right. And that's where I struggle. And not that,

I've gotten a lot better over the last five years of like hunting's no longer a competition. So I'm not jealous of these guys, right? I do have the means. If I wanted to have a $10,000 thermal, I would have one. I mean, it's just the reality. I could do it if I wanted to. So it's the jealousy of that. It's just...

It goes back to what you just touched on and I'm getting better recognizing it and hopefully it doesn't go full swing and I end up on PETA side protecting the animals. But like I'm, I root for the animals even when I'm hunting them and it's crazy for a hunter to be like rooting for it. But like last year, Idaho, you know, you know where we were at on that buck hunt.

meal deer hunt, I got whipped a couple times by this big buck and why it sucked at the time and I was trying to do everything in my power to figure it out. At the end of that day or even the next day when you're reflected, you're like, man, that's a cagey old buck. I'm glad I get a chance to hunt him. He may win and I may never kill him, but it was cool that he lived and I could get a chance to hunt him and maybe it'll make a great story for next year when I come back and find him. I just feel like

And this is where, where do you draw the line? Like, all right, well then should I be able to use a three by nine scope on a seven mag? Should I have to use open sites in a lever gun? Like at some point in this, and this is where this conversation always goes. Well, then it's like, all right. And we're going to get there in a little bit, but like, where do you draw the line? And so that's kind of what we're going to kind of look at as we go through these, these next few,

Yeah. Well, to hit that thermal thing again, too, it's like, you know, I said, you know, I didn't, we didn't see a lot of deer and we didn't see any, any real big bucks. We saw one shooter, but have other people with thermals been hunting that and they did shoot the big ones. I mean, you have to think that too. Like that always went through my mind. It's like, man, did somebody already, already cream these bucks out? Yeah. Cause they had thermals and they knew like, Oh,

You know, so I, I don't like it. I don't, I don't, I don't, I, like I say, I always vote for the deer. I was, I always advocate for the deer. If that means it's shortened my season a little bit, that means, you know, making some radical changes. That way we still have deer to hunt. You know, I will help protect those deer that way we can hunt them tomorrow. Like. Yeah.

Um, I'm not enjoying it. Like you said, but, but damn it. I, I really, I, I want there to be a deer here tomorrow or an elk here tomorrow to hunt, but now for predators.

During non big game, if it's not big game season and you're out there with one of those, or it's like nighttime and you are, are really doing it. I mean, I feel like poachers are going to poach, you know, if you didn't have a thermal rifle scope, you'd be out there with a spotlight shooting deer or elk at night. Yeah. But, but like I'm, I'm all for that, you know, shooting, you know, predator management because those, you know, that needs to happen. You know, um, they, those numbers need to be kept in check so they don't eat too many of our deer and elk. Yeah. And then.

The combination of those two is what's creating the issue in Washington right now is because thermals are illegal for predators.

not legal for big game but yet who's going to just shove one in the center console of their truck and oh i was just in here for my hunt the other night you know the only thing we don't allow is thermal scopes to be used to shoot you know the animals at night is the only thing protecting them but you know as long as you can have daylight optics joined in with those like yeah it's illegal but i don't know it's a slippery slope of is it being it can't be managed and there's there's um you know i i i didn't just make up this uh

you know, this example of, of the thermals being shoved in the center console. Like that's how it's being done for people to exploit that. Right. Right. Well, they have to draw a hard line, you know, for the bad apples, the bad apples, they ruin everything all in every case of every, everything you talk about, there's always some jerk that ruins it for everybody. So there you go. I mean, if, if it means, you know, during big game season, you're not allowed to have one of those on your person possession in the field at all period, zero zip, um,

that's the only way to manage it. Yep, yep. And the only thing is if this was legal for everybody, which it makes it an unfair advantage once again to people with money, is we may end up with a two-day deer season. And I love being out there more than that. And all of these things could ultimately affect. It's just the effectiveness of a hunter is ultimately the only result if the fish and wildlife is doing their job is to limit seasons, shorten dates, limit tags,

um, reduce the take because of the effectiveness. And that's my biggest concern is I'd rather be out there. If you told me I could hunt all three months, you know, September, October, November, but I'd use a 30, 30, I might pick that, you know, get prime seasons or whatever. But if you told me if you used a rifle, you can only hunt for four days. I'd be like, ah, that doesn't sound near as cool, you know? And so,

that's where my head's at on, on all of this is I just want opportunity for people. And the kill isn't necessarily, does not outweigh the time, the adventure, the, the experience for me. Yeah, absolutely. Agree. Okay. Moving into range finding scopes. Um,

The, you know, the precision, is it an unfair advantage? Should technology be removed? Now, I know some states do have laws and I apologize. I didn't go look at like every state. This is just a discussion about the, the, the ethics and our own opinions on this. But like, I know like range finding scopes, you know, I believe Burris has like an optical or Oculus or something. Yeah.

um sig sauer has one that talks and automatically moves reticles correctly yeah correct yeah um i'm not fully up but i do know there's technology a burst eliminator the bdx from sig um coupled with weather stations takes any hold on i'm gonna choose my words carefully they take the skill out of being the marksman that like

you know just range finding you know finding true line of sight um whether the elements putting it into a calculator but then some may say that that in itself and just having the ability to shoot that far accurately is the advantage what's your take on like specific to range finding scopes that adjust reticles there's no dialing no math being done well first and foremost i think you have to be

a good enough shot, a good enough guy pulling the trigger to actually make some of these shots. Right. Um, I know, you know, you can take 10 people, line them up and say, all right, grab your old hunting rifle best and shoot that, that gong at 300 yards. And you guys got, you know, we've had this debate since elementary school. Right. Yeah. And I bet there'd be a very few that would just be able to like, you know,

Grab, grab their old hunting rifle and hit that. So, you know, with, without movable turrets, um, without, you know, uh, uh, without a smart scope, uh, or whatever, that's going to, going to change the point of impact, you know, for, for trajectory, uh, for wind, et cetera. So, uh,

But those same people I still think would struggle with, you know, they had a $10,000 rifle and all the program and all the stuff. I still think they would struggle to maybe make a good shot. They might make a bad shot. And I think this is kind of where it kind of goes a little awry for me, is maybe people push the envelope of their actual effective range. Of course, ethics is always, you know, ethical.

ethics is kind of gotta be something that you judge on your own, you know, your own perceived ethics. But then again, like some people don't have that moral compass inside their head. So they may take a, you know, it's like, Oh, it's 800 yards. I'm really good to 600, but it's 800. And that's a really big buck or a really big bull. So I'm going to push it. I'm going to take that. I'm going to try for it. Yeah. And they make a bad hit or maybe they miss, but, but,

the, the ones that you're talking about that, that are self, that the, the, the red, you know, you range it like the range finding scopes or the range finding, you have a range finder connected to the, the scope and the reticle and you, you range it. And then the lights up on the, the reticle lights up and the correct hold over in the scope. Those kind. Yeah.

They're they, they work pretty good. They're there. They I've seen them work before. I've seen them work good in Idaho. They're illegal. And I'm okay with that. I'm okay with that. I feel like, I feel like you, there still has to be some mystery and some do your own, do your own diligence and do your own work on the side to let, to where it's like, okay, I'm going to make a very, very accurate shot. And maybe that kind of,

sort of filters out some people that maybe wouldn't put in the practice, wouldn't put in the time, you know, to make it a good clean shot. Just personally, I know, you know, I don't know if I can sit here and back it up and just say, you know, this is why I don't like it, but I just don't really like that. Um, myself, I feel like there's, yeah, I don't, I'm not for it. Yeah. I don't like the idea of it. Um, but then I also think when I go into my ballistics app,

entering all the data that either I have to get off a weather station or something I do at the beginning of the day, right? I'm going to be hunting from this elevation. It's about this temperature. It's about this humidity. And then I've got to go in there and make the adjustments based on, you know, what I, what I feel is right and what I feel the wind is make the wind call. And one thing that I do recognize is up and down or drop.

is a very simple calculation, right? Right. Bullet drop is, the art all comes into wind for the most part. Unless, you know, you're in steep canyon country over ridges and you got ups and downs you're trying to figure out. But the majority of the skill comes into your left and right and wind. So, I just...

I don't know if it's the skill because you just enter in parameters, but there's something about going to an app that's on the iPhone 15. So you're trying to take technology out of it, but at the same time, I'm going to an iPhone to do my calculations, why I'm hunting. I just...

I don't know. I don't like the idea of instantaneous adjustments so that a guy that maybe you said was proficient at 500, but he's like, oh, this scope will just move to 800 for me. I'll just shoot it wherever that dot ends up or the crosshair ends up. I'll be fine. I don't like it. I don't like that it takes that little bit of skill out. And one thing that...

You talked about people overshooting. I've always wondered about this. I don't know how you administer it and if it's too much overreach, but I would love to have some...

Shooting efficiency test, but then I don't know how you you know what I mean Yeah, if the guy only wants to shoot a hundred yard deer in the timber Why should he have to take that test necessarily? Maybe he needs to but then the guy that wants to shoot 500 needs to take a test But then it's not like when you get out in the woods it stops you from shooting that 700 yard You know shot that you're only proficient to 500 I just sometimes I wonder like I wish there was a way but there isn't until you start to limit optics and

grains of powder in a piece of brass. There's ways, but then you may just be forcing people to test their six and a half Creedmoor on a 1,500 yard shot. I don't know. Because if people have the ethics or morals they do, you may never change that. And so I know the conversation's going a little sideways here, but I just don't like the idea of range finding scopes for the reasons that it doesn't seem like there's a lot of skill involved. Right, right. I feel like

maybe people put a little less time and effort into mastering the craft and maybe there's the potential for making a bad shot or pulling off a bad shot. I don't know. Um, I think for predators, absolutely. You bet. Use them on predators all you want. Um, as like wolves, coyotes, bobcats, whatever, because typically you're not going to eat those, right. You know, big game, but big game animals. Yeah. They deserve, I think they deserve more.

And then one more little point I'd like to throw in to dial in your turrets and stuff. But the guy that says, oh yeah, I'm really good at 600 yards, but 800 yards, but still might try to take that shot. He's probably the same guy that had the old 3x9 with a duplex reticle and holding that thing seven feet over its back saying, I think I can hit that thing. I feel like there's always going to be those people, unfortunately. But

but I don't know how you police that. I mean, I mean, teach your sons and daughters better. Right. And, uh, you know, just create a, we, I think as hunters, we need to, to how, that's how you make your changes is, is educate and instill those values in, in, in the young, the next generation. Yeah.

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All right, let's move into maybe one of the newer, newer things we've seen. And it's going to be a two part. And our, our, I think our answers would be a little bit different drones for scouting and then drones for recovery. Um, what's your opinion on, on those? Um, I haven't really thought about it too much. Um, I know drones are cool for, for all the cool shots for cinematography, you know, and there's laws that, that say you can't use those for hunting, which I agree with. I mean, I'd,

Like if you're, let's say you're standing at the very bottom of river valley and it's a 2000 vertical climb up to where the elk may live. I mean, you could just shoot your drone up there, I guess, if it had those, um, if it had those abilities, your drone, particular drone, shoot it up there, scope around. It's like, oh yeah, there's no elk around here. Well, let's not, let's go to the next place. I mean that you definitely could use it in that, in that way. Now is that, I don't, I don't think that should be legal. I think that's.

You know, you're just letting, excuse me, you're letting the drone do the dirty work and, uh, you know, you don't have any skin in the game. I'm there again. Let's, let's give these animals a chance. Now let's say you did hike up there. You still got to hike up, find them again and kill them, which can sometimes still be very, very difficult. But since they do move, it's not like they're tied up, but still, I, I, I don't really like that. Um, honestly, yeah.

Now, now, now for now, and then you said for recovery. So let's say you have a drone with a thermal and you wanted to run around, let's say you had a marginal hit or a bad hit on an elk or a deer or whatever you wanted to run it around. Um, I, I think that's permissible, right? You know, you're going to, you're going to, you're trying to, you're trying to make sure that animal doesn't go to waste, you

You know, the law says, you know, go to every, every legal length to get that animal, um, taken back home. And I, and I, I would think that would be, that would be fine. Um, it would be a slippery slope though, for the folks who are going to try to use that drone again to scout, you know, they got that thermal thing on there. They're going to fly it up, look around, hold on, man, there's a whole field full of deer over there and we'll just go hunt over there or whatever. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, no, we're agreeing way too much. This isn't how I intended this podcast to go. Maybe you should give your opinion first, and then I can chop you out at the knees. No, no, I'm kidding. Here, I'll try this, but I'm lying. Yeah, I think you should be able to just sit in a spot in the unit and fly your drone until you find elk and then finally walk up that. No. I'm in complete agreement with Dirk. I hate the idea of...

not having to sweat, have a little bit of sweat equity. And like Dirk said, I do recognize there is a difference between knowing where Elk are at and killing them

but i don't think that the advantage of the knowing and killing you shouldn't just get to go be an elk right away because you didn't climb up the ridge or you didn't climb up maybe the ridge across the way that's only a 500 foot gain but you needed to be able to glass over something and like in my opinion there should be some work required before this is gonna sound weird like have a chance like take that oak's life like i don't feel that it's fair

or fair chase that that elk quote unquote gets found or exposed because you can run two little controllers from your truck. And, you know, and imagine if you did do that and we're always on elk, like it changes the game, right? Because even,

with our, you know, people think we're always on elk, right? I can go a day or two and just be like riding the struggle bus of not being able to find an elk, not hearing a bugle. Like there are real times versus like the hell with this. I'm going to go back to my truck, get my drone all charged up. I'm going to have four batteries ready so I can take four 25 minute flights and go

And by God, next time I get out of this truck, I'm hiking straight into elk. Right. I mean, how hard would it be just to send that thing, just open over a ridge, you know, a thousand feet or, or whatever, you know, especially in open country, you could just shoot it over the next ridge and, oh shoot, there's elk right there. I had no idea elk even lived there. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, I don't like that. Now I'm, I'm also on board with, um, drones for recovery, especially the use of thermal drones at the point where that deer is wounded, uh,

wounded or dead dead for sure i i was i was questioning my my stance on wounded because there is some escapement on marginal shots like maybe that deer will even live and be just fine maybe it's bedded down maybe we shouldn't let people know where it's at but if i had to just make a decision and wounded had to be in there because you don't know whether it's dead or wounded or you made a good shot i would err towards thermal recovery or drone recovery uh if

If, if you have the access to it, because I just, I, I'm not for one, like to let the animal's life go to waste. You know, if, if you did make a shot, you do have blood by all means. Um,

you know get the drone up see if you can find it and if it's maybe then the rule is i don't know how you'd police that either you know wounded you can't go after it dead you can go recover it but how do you know yeah people are i guess if it's sitting up versus laying on its side would be the only way right well maybe you have to like okay i have to come back in three hours and check it and check on it yeah i can check it in the daylight maybe or whatever what it might be daylight um

and then have to sneak up on it and give another shot. But I'm all for that. I would love to see critters be recovered, end up on somebody's table versus turn into coyote bait or die a miserable death over the next week, two weeks, month, whatever it may take. Right, right. No, I agree.

Now I will say some naysayers would be like, yeah, but now with you saying that, um, I can take those marginal shots. All I have is a butt shot. It's okay. I'm gonna shoot that thing square in the butt and then I'm going to use my drone and find it and then I'll get it later. Um, people will say that, but yeah.

I think those same people that would do that are the same people that are going to shoot too far. They're going to be the, you know, you can't, it's really hard to change the heart, someone's heart and change their personal ethics and less back, back to the point of we have to teach our sons and daughters better. Um, and then that, that's where change starts. But,

I mean, there's, there's, there's the people have bad hearts in every situation, whether you're talking about mugging somebody or whatever it is. Um, you know, there's people have a bad heart. So, um, you know, you can't let it change the law that much, I think. Yep. Yep.

And, you know, and some of these seem easy to talk about. You know, like I'm not a lighted knock guy, but I know like you're a big proponent of lighted knocks. That isn't one of my topics because I feel like that one's well past the point of controversy. It just,

It just lets you know whether or not you, it lets you see your arrow, right? And know what happened versus you just dug it into the ground and can't find the thing and you need to go start blood trailing or maybe there isn't blood, but you got blood on your arrow. Some of these things like drone recovery seems to be clean cut. We should allow it just like that. But there's always, I think there's always going to be a group that just wants it to be as like,

traditional and primitive as possible oh yeah um and they don't want a drone you know flying over deer country even you know maybe we should allow it on private not i don't know i don't know what you do there but my point is like i feel like thermal recovery should be an easy one to allow but i i can also see the other side on why they wouldn't want you know drones and technology involved in hunting at all yeah and i almost feel like um

Maybe they make rulings like, excuse me, on the drones, almost like flying, flying an airplane and then hunting, you know, but you have a 20, you can't hunt again for 24 hours. Yeah. You know, once you try and then the drones are going to log all that in, right there, they, they log your sessions. They, they, they know when you fly. So let's say, um, you love, you fly it. Well, you can't hunt for 24 hours. I mean, with that, that would be totally admissible. Yeah. Unfortunately, like for recovery, um,

lose some heat you would lose you know you may not you may lose your animal it may may go bad on you in 24 hours so yeah okay this next one's kind of a combo um ai and kind of that ai powered scouting and we're going to tie that into cell trail cams to kind of tackle this all at once so um

So there's apps and AI models. You know, when we go to, when we go to Kansas, some of those guys run an app like Drury's whitetail app. I think Onyx has like conditions and, and, you know, people have time moon phase and whatever it may be, but like apps that tell you when deer movement should be best, all of these things based on all of these environmental factors coupled with

Some of these things, and I don't claim to know all of multi-mobiles. I just use their cameras. I love their cameras, but there starts to be patterning, whether you're getting daylight, nighttime, if they're on these. What's your opinion on that? AI-generated planning and then cell cams. It might be a complex one, but we'll kind of chunk it up and go through that. Well, I think...

you can like, let's say you're whitetail hunting. I think you can log in on get like any kind of information you want as far as like, Oh, this is the best time. This is the best day, or this is the best two days to hunt. You should do this. You should do that. Um, I've never seen that be consistently accurate, um, with any of that kind of stuff. So I don't know. I mean, until,

they get the kinks worked out i i guess i'm not really against it yeah and and i think just looking at it trying to you know kind of peek over somebody's shoulder like how does this app work i think the biggest driving factor is just weather and and i think most white tail hunter know you get that big you know weather push like oh now it says it's going to be great deer hunting for three days well yeah it's because you got a big cold front moving in yeah weather change barometric pressure changed i mean all the signs that grandpa used they're yeah they're the same stuff it's just maybe

maybe delivered in a different manner. But let's roll to the next level. Like you've got a camera set up it. I think the, you know, you're getting to the point where they've identified certain deer and it's starting to tell you like,

Yeah, I think, I don't know how it works exactly. I wish I was more versed on this, but basically like, oh, if you want to hunt George, George would be best hunted at this time because this is, this is a showing patterns. Like, are you okay with that? Or is that something somebody come up on their own? Should they have to figure that out on their own or should they just be hunting whenever they can? And it might just happen to be during that time. Well, I guess if you're looking at your pictures, you would know.

already know what the best time, like you would see like, okay, he's daylighted now. Um, at this time, you know, it's timestamped on your, on your, on your images. Um, I, I guess, I mean, if you, if you were running 75 cameras and you were, you know, you didn't have time to go through all that data, which I'm sure a lot of people do run a lot of cameras and it might be hard to manage all that. Sure. I mean, um, yeah, I don't know. I, yeah, I,

Well, and for instance, the cell phone cameras, that's kind of a hot, hot topic, whether you should be able to use them or not. Yeah. And cell phone cameras or cell phone, cell trail cameras are going to roll into that. I think we're going to get a big technology push in AI here in the next three years where they can identify specific deer by horn configuration, their time. And then what we're just looking at is maybe when we look at a trail cam picture, we don't know whether barometric pressure, it's going to add all that in and start to create this like recipe to kill that deer.

Yeah. Yeah. Especially if you have a network of cameras that it would be too hard to manage, you know, just image, you know, just checking them all. If you had like, let's say 20 cameras, 30 cameras, whatever, you know,

On every trail, on every point, pinch point, on every food source. And then collaboratively your AI generated, okay, if you want to shoot this deer, be at this pinch point at XYZ time on XYZ. You know, I feel like, yeah, that could probably, that could probably work. Having a tracking color on the thing, if he shows up on multiple cameras too, you know, and then one thing I talked with a guy that hunts blacktails around here is like,

he does it on his own, but he always looks at like when a deer, what direction a deer approaches from. And then if he's not getting there early enough, so if it's a nighttime picture, he will go in that direction and set out, like he'll scatter three more cameras. And like, but if the AI tells you like, go put a camera 470 yards in this direct, you know, like it starts to take all of that out, uh, you know, versus just being a skilled hunter and trying to like reduce it down to like, how the hell do I kill this deer in daylight or elk or whatever? Um,

yeah, people can do it on their own, but like just using the technology, sometimes I hate it. Like I want the guy out. If you're out there smashing 180 inch whitetail bucks every time, like I would love to be like, yeah, Dirk, man, he gets into the Excel. He's got all this plotted. Like he's got his own system. I don't know. I like that story better versus like, yeah, this technology told him to be at pinch point, you know, X, you know, X at such and such time. And

Um, right. I feel like I don't like that. I don't like the theory of it. Let's say, you know, the theory of, of that working, like we've just described, uh, that's an unfair advantage. I don't like it. Um, and I typically, I typically don't like to poopoo on things unless I've had some experience with it. You know, uh, for instance, you know, some States outlawed trail cams of any kind during hunting season. Um, and yeah,

You know, because wildlife managers like, oh, you'll just unfair advantage. But have you even ran trail cameras? Like they tried this in Idaho. They wanted to outlaw them in Idaho. Now I was like, well, the cell phone ones, I'd be probably be fine because that's more real time. You're getting messages. Hey, there's a deer or elk over here, blah, blah, blah. But they're just just standard ones where you have to walk in. You have to commit the time. You got to walk in and check that camera and be like, okay, well, by then a lot of times.

the, from my experience, because I run a lot of trail cameras by that time, it's old data. It may be a week, week gone by, and especially for like elk rut, right? They may be there for two or three days and then they're gone. You know, you don't see them again until next September. So I don't,

I feel like I hate to like poopoo on something I don't have any real experience with, but I don't like the concept, what we're talking about this AI. And I think that'll be one of those things until they, it, it gets clicked and it's refined and it's working good. I, I don't, I don't think we know. And it might sound good on paper, but the guy goes, sits his tree stand. He's like, yeah, this is stupid. This doesn't work at all.

Um, who cares then at that point, but if it is working, if it does work, like they say it would work, I wouldn't be, I wouldn't be for it now. I mean, and also maybe if it was public land versus private land, you know, private land people maybe have the advantages like, Hey, it's my property. I should be able to do whatever I want with it. America. Right. And I do kind of feel for those folks too. It's like, you know, it is private, you know, but yeah.

overall i don't like it yeah yeah okay this is my this was my first year ever running cell cams everything else was like all right you know boot leather boot grease you know i gotta go check my check my camera it was really just to see what elk were in the area or deer were in the area before and so um i'm not gonna lie like cell cams were nice it was in an area i didn't want to hike to every time i happen to have some cell service there but one thing i'm gonna kick this one off one thing

I wasn't expecting was almost additional anxiety of,

nothing's there for a week what's going on right you know versus i'm sure if i was there like i would just spot the elk up bedding on a slightly different sliver of timber for that week and then they'd show back up right um like oh this is a bad spot during hunting you know it is legal in washington to have them up during season like they had me doing the wrong thing more so than just letting my eyes tell me what to do right we would make a play based on what was in such and such base and then you'd go over there and like ah this isn't what we thought it was they're you know they're they're back but

the right bowl isn't there. We should have stayed there. Um, what's, what's your opinion on cell cams and the States that allow it, where you can make instantaneous decisions on where you need to be and what's probably within quarter mile, half mile of that location. So I have, have a little experience with cell cameras. Um, for instance, our buddy Randy, he runs a pretty good network of cell cameras in Kansas. Um,

let's talk about turkey season. He's like, Hey, you boys need to go down to the, to the 400 there. And there's those turkeys in that one spot. You go down there and you'll kill them. All right. Well, cause he's been seeing them on camera. Like, and I don't know how many times we've gone down there, set up call. We're not even seeing a turkey. It's like, it's almost like you're kind of chasing, like chasing your tail. Like you go from this one to that one to this one to that one. It's not always, uh,

It's not always a slam dunk. I guess what I'm saying, you still got to hunt them up. Right. And back to your point, like, you know, you, I sometimes feel like you make some bad decisions and,

Just because like, okay, they should be here, but they were there, but where did they go? Well, it doesn't mean they're just hanging around that camera. You know, they could be two miles away in a complete different drainage. Uh, if you're talking about elk, um, this last fall I had a cell cam, cell camera out, like, like the first time in history. Well, for a lot of my adult life, I've hunted where you would be able to get cell cell phone service. And I had a camera out.

And the elk, you know, all September there'd been bulls and cows in there, but I wasn't hunting that unit at all. I've just kind of, I was more scouting it, but I did have a rifle tag for that unit.

But I go up to the trailhead to a completely different area where I had thought like, all right, we're going to go back in here. And, and, and, you know, it's not the kind of the front country. It's kind of the back country and we're going to go hiking. We're going to stay all night. We're going to hunt. Well, we get there, there's seven pickups and lots of dirt bike tracks and people's boot prints. And there's, it looked like there was a lot of people going into the, into the spot that I intended to go. I'm like, uh, we got to wait. I don't want to hunt here. I don't want to compete here.

with these guys, these other guys for this hunt. So we go back out. So we drive, you know, an hour back into service and, and I check my trail cam and, Oh, Holy cow. This big six point that I've been seeing in September that kind of disappeared. He's back. And he'd been all, he'd been nocturnal all September. He's back on, he's on, he's daylighted. Look at him like, wow. I know we're hunting tomorrow. We're going to go hunting up there. So we get up there. There's people everywhere.

Um, hunting, but we, I do hear him bugle and it's over in the area by the cell cell cam. So we go over there, hunt him up.

Of course, you know, as great of an elk hunter, I like to consider myself. Oh, guess what? The elk give us the slip, right? You know, and bugling during rifle season. I was just worried there was enough people around that, that thing bugling his head off was going to, you know, drag in another person. So I got too aggressive and blew him out of there. And guess what?

my cell camera, my cell camera said, these elk are long gone. They're not here anymore. So we, we stopped hunting that spot and went on to another one. Yeah. So, I mean, maybe debate you a little bit here, but not so my, we, we, we've talked about this, like knowing the animals there doesn't necessarily get it dead, but then we can maybe make that argument. And you might, you might agree. You might tell me I'm, I'm an idiot, but, um,

I would make the argument like, but if you didn't have the cell camera there, would you even have went to that spot? You know? And so that's the other thing. That's a good argument. It's, it's 50%, but it's not a hundred percent. So it does expose that elk or put pressure on, on them at that time versus like, if you would have had to walk in there or you're like, you know, we've all been there like, oh, this camera has been dead cold. Like I'll just get it at the end of season versus like, no, I actually had to walk in there, um, put some scent on the ground, um,

potentially risk blowing the spot out for a day or two to check that SD card and then get back out. Is there a difference? And then some people may argue, well, you shouldn't even have the SD card camera up. No cameras, just hunt them where they're at. Right.

Right. Which, um, yeah, no, and I, I can, I can see that point. Definitely. Would I have gone to that spot or whatever? I, you know, I have, you know, just like everybody, I got ABCD, EFG spots that I'm going to go for opening morning. Um, yeah, that, that did steer me to that spot. Now,

And also, you know, past data showing that I did, I did know that there was elk frequenting the area all September. I probably would have went in there. Now, one thing though, it's kind of that front country, easy accessible, a lot of people around. I was almost, even with that one debate, that one daylighting, I was debating, I was like, I don't know if I even want to go in there because I don't want to compete for elk with other people. I just don't like, I just want to go find my own spot. Yeah.

But I did. So I feel like, yeah, it does give you an unfair advantage. Like, um, you know, you still have to hunt them up, but it puts you in the right area at the right time. And so I feel like if they said in Idaho, if they said next year, you can't use, um, cell phone trail cameras, it wouldn't hurt my feelings. I mean, well, it would just a little bit because it's, it's, it's still fun because man, I

There's nothing better than checking trail cameras and like being like Christmas. Well, it's like Christmas every day when you got one of them things every morning and I'd wake up first thing I do open up, I open up my Moultrie app and I'm looking, I'm like, oh, oh yeah, there's elk. Oh, look at that little deer. Oh, there's a weasel. Like, you know, it's like Christmas every day. I'm still getting messages. You know, I left them up there this winter. There's a rabbit that's been going by this one. The other one's completely snowed in.

Yeah. So yeah. All mine are buried in snow now, but I, I was the same way. Like I loved it. And then it gave me anxiety more than I thought, because if I just didn't know what was up there, I'd be doing better at times. And then you're like, Oh, that bowl is not quite big enough yet. Like we'll leave it alone. Like a bigger one will show up eventually, you know, more into September. And so, yeah, it let you kind of, I loved everything about it, but then if you really just take back and like,

It does give you more information than having to put some boot leather. Similar to flying a drone up, besides you're locked to one location on a tree, I guess, but you are technically scouting over and over and over without having to climb back into a spot. I like them. I don't think I'm in a position to say like,

i would be like an advocate for outlawing them i don't think i would like you i would be necessarily upset if they went away um but i do i do love using them for now um and i i honestly felt like at least how i worked they didn't give me like a huge advantage um and i i'm stoked to keep running those those cell cameras as long as i can here in washington yeah exactly

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considered by most to be more of a primitive weapon, but then you start to see technology show up on that. We're talking like the new smart bow sights, you know, the Garmin Zero. I think we got the Burris Oracle for... That's the one that they put on like the crossbows and stuff. But you got these range-finding sights that will instantaneously give you a range. And I don't even know... Do you know if the...

pin actually moves on that like holographic type. I think it does. And there again, like I said, I have never messed. I've never, I've never even held a, held one in my hand that wasn't on a bow. I've never even looked at one, honestly. Yeah. Yeah. But I, I do know they're, they're expensive. Eight, 900 bucks. Oh wow. And they let you, you know, right now,

I mean, everybody knows in order to get a range, you pre-range everything, trees, and then you got to try to remember the seven trees you arranged and try to build. I build like little semi-circles out in front of me. Like these trees all connect for 30. These trees connect for 40. Build my own thing, try to remember it and hope he doesn't walk somewhere else. And if he does, then I've got to like,

Sneakily like get to my range finder lift it up get a new range on the elk put it back down draw my bow and do all of that we're now doing the you got to focus on is drawing your bow and Getting a range right on that elk. Yeah, I'm in clear view. I don't like that is Like I'm more opposed to smart bow sights. I Like the idea of being more primitive if we're getting the best seasons once again

I like the idea that not every elk I call in, I'm going to get to kill because of brush or because of range or because he doesn't go into the perfect spot. I had planned for him. Um, what's your opinion on, on, you know, these smart bow sites and, uh, and their use in, in archery. Yeah. Like I said, I've never used one, but, um, the concept, uh,

If it were, if it's just like anything, you know, any kind of gadget seems like, does it work like they say at work or was intended to work? Now, if that thing is works flawless and it's like worked really, really good. Um, yeah, I just, I'm not, I'm, I'm against it. I don't, I don't like it. I don't, I think, I think you still have to, you know, fix sites are good. I don't think you should be able to use that, but yeah.

You know, who knows? I know, I know people who have had those and like, yeah, the thing sucked. I don't like it, but who knows? They might've got better. I don't know. But, um, I, I personally have no, no qualms about, I don't want to use them. I don't want to see, I don't want to see those in the marketplace. Yeah. Um,

In Idaho, you know, we, you know, they try to keep things as primitive as they can. You can't have any kind of battery, anything on your bow. So if you wanted to film yourself shooting your bow or hunting while you're hunting, you know, put a GoPro on your camera or on your, on your bow. You can't do it. Yeah. Which to me is stupid. Um, but their opinion is, well, if we allow that, then it allows other things to creep in, which I don't agree with that concept or mentality. I mean, you guys make the laws, right? Just say a camera is fine.

As long as it, you know, but no range finder, no this, no that. I mean, just define it, but they kind of just like to take the easy route sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. No, I,

That's kind of where I'm at on smart bow sights. Like, it is... We're the same in Washington. Like, no electronics, so you can't run a Tacticam or a GoPro or any... You know, back... I think it was even seven or eight years ago, somebody was trying to, like, mount the rangefinder on your stabilizer. You click a little button on your riser, and it would report on a little screen. And I'm like, ah, I just... I mean, it's cool, but I don't like it. It's just more crap. I mean, it's a gimmick. It's a gadget. Yeah, yeah. I...

I want there to be some skill in that moment of truth as an archer. You either know the range, you don't know the range, and you don't take the shot. You take the risk of reaching for your range finder and getting a new range. All that's part of the game, and I think if you can take that out, it changes the chance for escapement on the rules that were put in place for that season, for that opportunity. I don't like the hunter having that much advantage, I guess. Yeah.

Yep. I agree. Then we're, we're going to let the, the, the elephant in the room speak. Um, and, and yeah, we'll just, we'll just talk about it. Um, long range hunting and the, the technology changes over the last 15 years on long range hunting. Can you police it? Can you not police it? Does it got to be self-policed? Um,

It would almost be impossible to police, but like, how do you deal with long range hunting or do you just let it run its course and start to shorten seasons and limit opportunity? And, and I don't even have my data, but I'm just got to speculate like as a, as just common sense. And maybe somebody is going to correct me. I hope you do if I'm wrong, but I've got to imagine that more animals die because of the increased accuracy and performance of rifles than they did before when we had, you know,

a seven mag with a three by nine, no ability to move reticle. Like that's what you had. Right. Um, I kind of look at it like this. We haven't seen, at least in Idaho, I don't have the numbers in front of me, but we haven't seen some giant leap in success rates since people have been able to shoot a thousand yards, you know, for the last 20 years, people have been able to shoot long range and beyond that. But the bill that shoot long range here in Idaho, um,

But we haven't seen a dramatic uptick in success rates, um, in any of the units, I don't think. So to me, like some hunters, and I don't want to sound like a condescending jerk, like some hunters, you could almost like do just about anything to give them an advantage and they're still not going to get it done. They're not going to get an elk. You know, it's, you know, they say, you know, uh, 10% of the hunters are killing 90% of the elk. Um,

And that success rates, they hover depending on the unit. Some, some units are 10%, some are more than that, depending on the weapon, depending on the units. Some of the units, you know, they're really good, you know, uh, trophy class management units, um, you know, success rates are high, but there's also, you know, uh, you know, less hunters in the, in the average. And then there's more animals than average. So your, your success rates go up. So I'm not a hundred percent against it. I think, uh,

I think the biggest line that gets drawn here is the people who can't shoot long range and have no desire to shoot long range. They like to hunt traditional with a 3x9 scope. That's why they hunt if they want to get closer. If they can't shoot from where they're at, they just want to get closer. And that's how they like to hunt. And they think...

it's not good if somebody can shoot a long, a longer shot, the long range aspect back in time, what I said earlier in the beginning of the podcast, it does open up, um, opportunity for people to shoot, you know, past their effective range, but so does shooting the old three by nine scope without movable turrets. Um,

I grew up in an era, everybody had a three by nine scope or a four power scope or whatever. And when you seen a buck or a bull at a long range, we didn't have range finders. We didn't have movable turrets and people just held over. And most people didn't hit anything unless they had one on a big open hillside and they emptied two boxes of shells on it and they shot it in the ass or, and then finally they would go over there and finish it off. So, I mean, yeah.

back to like, you can't change the hearts of people, right? So people, there were bad apples doing bad stuff before we could have the capability to shoot in long range. And now we still have some of those same people around, but I feel like a lot of the guys who are like doing it right and are successful at it and doing it, they do it right. They're not like,

You know, we know some of the best shooters, you know, long range shooters in the world. And those guys would be like, they can shoot a thousand yards. No problem. They can shoot 1500 yards. No problem. But they'll say, ah, when I'm hunting, I really like to reel that back in. I don't really feel like I should be shooting that far on an animal. And they usually won't. They, they, they don't. So.

I don't know. And I don't know how you would police it. Yeah, you couldn't. Would you outlaw range finders? Well, if you outlawed range finders, then people with reticles and a first focal plane scope would be able to measure. Well, even the second focal plane scope, you would be able to measure distance by counting the ticks on your reticle. Like there's a way around everything unless you just outlawed.

Movable turret scopes. And then somebody, then we're back to holding over seven feet with your duplex. So I don't know what the right answer is.

Yeah, I, I struggle with it cause I've got custom built guns and I haven't shot an animal over a thousand yards yet, but I shoot regularly over a thousand yards with, you know, on paper and make sure I've got all my, my dope charts and drop charts and everything figured out and wind drifts. Um, but yeah, I, I try, you know, similar to those others, I try to reel it in as much as possible. I still want to hunt. And one thing that like, I try to check off of my brain is like, did I challenge that animal? Did I, you know, his senses, did he,

you know did i sneak into 300 yards well then he had a chance to see me or smell me or do some of these things and you some people will say well like the whole point is not to challenge any of their senses right and and climb up over the ridge and i'm like yeah but you know what i mean like if i got within 300 yards like i feel better about that versus if i shot him from 900 and he didn't know i existed you know or had no no reason to be concerned um but yeah i've always taken things to extremes like where do you draw the line like let's say

some new weapon and it's not outlined by any game commission, like your gun shoots a laser or something. Right. And you can shoot something at 4,000 yards and you're like, well, does the guy have the skill? Are we going to let that happen? Like, is it a choice? Like, is it, is it a range thing? Is it effectiveness thing? Yeah.

Like, how do we, where do we police it? Because let's just say, for instance, I'm just going to talk through this. It won't ever happen because of the math and the physics involved, but you know, there's these like extra long range matches, right? Where people are making hits at 4,000 yards or something, you know, two and a half miles and the king of two mile. Yeah. What if, what if that becomes common technology or there's an app that like, oh yeah, these guys have figured this all out. There's a lot of environmental factors, but like we got it dialed. Like,

you know let's say and i'm i'm this is me and my imagination but like all right we build the ai in the onyx in the wind and weather and like they know that we're shooting over these ridges from this elevation to that elevation this is what the wind's doing on all those draws like oh we'll come up with a solution for you just your scope's going to move right to this like do we let everybody take a shot at a 4 000 yard animal and kill it like

I don't know if we ever get there. I don't know, but it's like at some point there's gotta be some self policing. And I don't know if it's a yardage thing, if it's a season length thing, um, how will that work? So I, I love long range hunting for the fact that it really sharpens your skills and it makes my 300, you know, my typical 300 yard hunting shots very easy with the equipment that I have that's built for a thousand plus yards. But I don't know. It's, it's a tough one to tackle. I don't got the right answers. Um,

i don't know i i like it but i wish it was like could be policed or managed somehow yeah i was just thinking about what you were saying about that you know the ai figured out atmospheric conditions between you and the target

man, I would have to think there's some smart person out there already working on this, like be able to project a beam or project something between you and the target and somehow give measurable feedback of atmospherics between you and there, and then have the AI calculate all that. I mean, maybe somebody already, the government probably already has it, right? I'm sure Brian Letts is working on it for the government. Yeah. That's why I went, that's why our buddy, John Brunson,

Brian probably has that in that new applied ballistics app. And that's why John couldn't figure it out the other day. He's like, all right, you, you've, you've got all this extra stuff. These parameters. But yeah, I mean, there's, there are geniuses out there like, you know, those guys. And I'm sure at some point, or maybe we just gave them their next idea is like, yeah, if you had like a range finder that could,

report back environmental conditions at 100 yards, 200 yards, 300 yards, and you could get whatever it would be, like a mean difference. Well, this is what you really need to dial for even though you're shooting 2,000 yards across these canyons. I would not be surprised if we got a Facebook announcement tomorrow that says, look what's now developed. Right, right. It's not beyond...

you know, uh, beyond that, that, that level of technology right now, I don't believe. But one thing, you know, people have to consider too. And I think a lot of people do, but, um, shooting long range, um,

Is actually what you, I mean, hitting the animals, one thing, but then recovering it, let's say you're by yourself or you don't have a spotter or, or maybe you do have a spotter. For instance, I kind of talked about early in the thing about you, the thermal and we spotted a shooter, but we did is too far issue. Well, it wasn't that we couldn't hit it at that far. It was like 700 yards, but this buck, um, it was late in the evening.

Um, you shoot it, it goes down. We got to drop 800 vertical feet, climb 600 vertical feet and try to find that thing in the dark. That's just irresponsible and unethical. Like, no, that's stupid. Like we, could we have found it? I'd like to say maybe, probably, but I'm not going to gamble on that. I respect the animal too much. So, um,

i feel like there again you know long-range shooting you have to be able to recover it too without just losing animals yeah i uh i feel like you were taking a jab at me dirk on that mountain view elk hunt there with some of those last comments because we shot it and then had to leave it overnight but we had specific environmental

um, things working for us. But yeah, that is, it was a concern, you know, we, we thought about it and where it died and we're like, well, you know, we had to make the decision for the safety of all of us and the Rocky country and where it was at. We had to come back, but thankfully we had 15 degrees at night and the elk landed on its belly, you know, and, and, uh, you know, we didn't, didn't waste hardly any of that meat, you know, a little bit around the hip sockets, but not much. But, um, yeah, that, that is a major concern, you know, um,

you know especially in the mountains um you know being able to shoot long range is great but recovery and recovery in a time where you don't waste any meat is also a big concern yeah yeah definitely but i will give a plug to one of our partners um loophole's got a great new spotter that helps in this process if you do shoot that thing go ahead and range find it and mark it on your onyx and then just walk over to that point bam yeah hey there you go that's just that's

that's as um as sponsorshipy as i'm gonna get or a plug in a product but uh no it is that it is a game changer like i didn't think i would necessarily use that as much as i have but man it makes it awesome and if your friends don't know you have that technology it makes you look like a freaking genius oh yeah on the ground wow how'd you you're really yeah that good i'm that yeah hey i looked at the point of the ridge and i knew where this tree was and that and

um use it on my muzzleloader bull recovery used it on a few accused here last year when we were testing it and makes you look way smarter than you really are yeah no appreciate having you on um you know and just walking through these some of these things are tough and there's no right or wrong answers i think you know we we use some of this technology we we grow with it and sometimes i'm a hypocrite because it's like well i'm going to use it until it's illegal even though i don't necessarily agree with it um

But yeah, everybody's got to make their own decision on what's too much, how much is too much, and then make their decisions on that. But yeah, I appreciate having you on. And I do want to let everybody know, don't forget the sportsman shows we've got going on. This is airing on the 13th, I think is a Thursday. Is that correct? Yeah. Which both shows will be active. We'll be at Western Hunt.

in um salt lake city utah and then we'll also be at the pacific northwest sportsman show in portland oregon so if you're in the area board um head on out you can take a look for the first time at some of our new products we will have the new carbon fiber beagle tube at these shows we will have a select amount for sale of the carbon fiber tubes 50 of them oh each show nice um

We've got our new Kaivin tube, which is collapsible, smaller than an Algin bottle, extends out into a full-size tube, full sound, amazing, in my opinion, amazing sound and good back pressure. We've got a new product, the EZ-1, that will accompany, kind of be the

the the little brother little sister whatever you want to call it to the easy sucker and then we will have um some new trial packs of some new diaphragm frames that we have at all these shows so um a big year for phelps on our elk category i don't want to say we've stayed away from it but i would say this has like been the big um you know since 2016 when we brought the unleashed tube the amp frames like this is probably our biggest um

This is probably our biggest, you know, year or category expansion for elk, I would say. So pretty stoked to see, see what everybody thinks, um, on those and, uh, yeah, head out the show, um, pick yourself up a new tube or, uh, you know, at least just talk to us and, um, yeah, we'd appreciate seeing you. And, and if you see Jason Phelps, please, he'll be at the Portland show. Please ask him, Hey, are you going to dress like Hulk Hogan again and go elk hunting?

Give the people what they want, Jason. I mean, you really need to make, if we got enough people going up and asking for him to hunt in a Hulk Hogan outfit again, we might get to see it again. We might not get to see it again. Um, no, if I get here, I'll say if I get 14,000 people tell me I should hunt in a, in a, uh, Hulk Hogan outfit, I'll do it.

So, you know, the email to send it into, what is it? Let's not, let's not get overwhelmed with emails. Yeah. We'll see. We got a lot to see, see how much I'll cut and I get to do this year. We've got some pretty big plans in the cooker that I might have to save for a future episode. Yeah, definitely. So, all right. Appreciate it, Dirk. Take care. And we'll, we'll catch up with you later. Yep.

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