Ep. 16: Decisions That Lead To Success with Trent Williams
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We may never be able to agree on what impact social media has had on our hunting, good or bad, but I may not have met today's guest without it. Trent Williams is one of those guys I always saw popping up on social media with great polls year after year and come to find out they were on general Wyoming tags. He's out at Green River, Wyoming and is one of the most consistent elk hunters I know. Today I wanted to dive into a little bit of what he does to find success year in and year out. Welcome to the show, Trent.

Thanks, Jason. I very much appreciate you having me on and just being able to sit down and talk elk hunting with you for a while. How's everything going there in Wyoming? Good. I mean, this year, maybe it's just because I'm a little more focused about it. I don't know. But it seems like a little bit more of a wet summer, which everybody knows we need across the West. And it feels a lot nicer out and everything's rolling along smooth out here.

Yeah, I know. Speaking of the wet summer, you know, wet late spring, I know horn growth across the West is it's off the charts in a lot of units. So it'll be good for anybody out there looking for a few extra inches of elk horn. But yeah, one little stat I had in Wyoming, too, is that they claim and it's crazy coming from an area that has, you know, single digit success rate. But your guys's general tags are.

Um, or, or I guess elk percentage elk success overall is 44.4%, which I think is unmatched. Not even the second runner up isn't even close. And so, um, that's a little tidbit of information I have on Wyoming that just, you know, the elk hunting in Wyoming, not that you guys want any more people, but you know, the non or us non-residents are capped anyways. So you're, you're, you're going to get what you get, but just, um,

Wyoming is one of those states where it's just like, you guys, you guys are still living in what we consider the heydays of elk season, in my opinion, or elk hunting, in my opinion.

Yeah, I've heard it. I've heard it said by, you know, a lot of people, me included, that we really are in the glory days of elk hunting right now. And we have problems with, you know, other populations of animals, mule deers on decline everywhere, but elk are really doing really well. And I feel fortunate to live here and just be able to hunt this state every single year where people are basically clawing to come on here, even on a general tag.

Yep. Yep. Pretty, pretty good. So to start the podcast off, we're going to take some listener questions. And once again, for all of you out there, if you have a question you want submitted from my guests or myself to answer, please email us at ctd at Phelps game calls.com. We'll do our best to field your questions and get those answered. So the first question I have for you, Trent, Elk were in an area in early August. Will they be there in September? Yep.

In my experience, the bulls that I found in early August are not in the same places as

um, in September. Um, I found the only real key takeaways that I found in August, um, in my scouting missions is to find the nursery of cows. And then I went back to those areas that had all the cows in them during the summer months and the bulls just kind of show up. So I used to run trail cams a lot, um, and even scout harder in the places that, you know, I now frequent a whole bunch. So,

It doesn't feel as important to me, but it still is important to go take inventory of the bulls there. And those same bulls that I might get on camera, you know, miles away could still show up with those same cows. But as far as patterns, I have never been good at finding a spot in August that I can go back to in September with any success. Yeah, I know I'm on the same exact same.

you know, wavelength you are there. We used to spend a lot of time before I knew any better, you know, scouting bulls. And I didn't realize I really needed to be paying attention to those cows because, you know, as soon as around here, August 20th to 25th,

those bulls were leaving to go start to check on those, those big groups of cows, you know, start to break them up. And yeah, it's just that natural process. And once we understand that I'd rather pay attention to cows or even more importantly, you know, rub areas, stuff like that. Wallows are more important. I do have a question for you since you pay a lot of attention and, you know,

target specific bulls what's the farthest you've seen you know an elk move from maybe that that mid-summer range to where they're gonna you know ultimately find them during the rut or once season rolls around in september well i don't know that i have a a real good bead um on movement like that i mean i can't even honestly say that i've seen the same bulls

after I've scouted them, I, you know, in these general over the counter units, I don't know that I've scouted the same bulls that I've been seeing with the cows. So as far as movement,

you know, I'm not real sure. I just know that I have had bulls that I've hunted during the month of September that I've moved an extremely long ways, especially when they're bumped. I mean, I had it to where I bumped elk maybe a couple of different times, um, and they've stayed in the same area, but then I don't know, it seems like when you finally do booger them, I've had them, you know, I don't know, been seen as far as 10 miles away, which in the mountains, obviously, as you know, is, is a huge distance. So

Yep. Yep. Tough to tough to cover that ground and stay with them. So, yeah, to reiterate what Trent said, where you find elk in early August, especially the bulls, is not where you're going to find them come September. I would focus your attention on the cows, the bigger groups of cows and pay attention to that area or in close proximity to that area as season approaches.

So the second question for you, when drawing a game plan for the day, how do you decide where you're going to start and how does your day progress? Like, can you can you build out a day in the life of Trent hunting elk in the woods? I can try on a perfect day. I guess I would have a game plan from the night before, whether that's.

Like if I'm just starting a trip off, um, I'll try and get into the woods or, uh, you know, get to camp, uh, before nightfall, uh, that evening, and then just be able to either scout or bugle or do something to try and get my head in the game for the next morning. If I have completely nothing going, then I usually start, start my morning early and, uh, road bugle, uh,

Basically try and be either on elk bright and early when the sun comes up or be hiking into where I feel like I have my best chance to get on elk, whether that's taking into consideration the people around or, you know, any other kind of circumstances we could have. I guess after the, you know, morning kind of leads us to what we do the rest of the day.

Yeah. Do you, do you prefer to glass right off the bat or do you want to be right, you know, on top of elk or, or do you not have a preference? I'd prefer to be right on top of them. I, I joke with, you know, a couple of hunting buddies that I usually spook more elk before some people wake up in the morning and that actually gets kind of frustrating at times. But I also, I mean,

I just feel it's important to keep contact with elk, especially in the morning when they're moving from that feeding to bedding area, just being able to be right on top of them, you know, the best time of day you're going to get to kill them when they're most vocal, most active and be able to be in position to strike. Sometimes, you know, yeah, I get in over my head and I spook bulls in the dark and elk as a whole in the dark, but it's kind of just a price I've learned to pay with and, and,

try and learn my lesson but at the same time i guess i'm not all that disappointed in it because i know i was trying to put myself in the best position i could be to succeed that day yeah for sure and that's one thing that we as well learned you know is i learned to hunt a certain way here on the coast range you know we had a lot of clear cuts and industrial timberlands and when we decided to start hunting the mountains um we quickly learned that you know right off the bat i wanted to always take the easy route stay high on a ridge you know be on a trail um

do things that were easy. Um, but then you start to realize, well, I'm never going to kill an elk from up here with the thermals, you know, at least not in the first couple hours. And so we started to learn over time, like, Hey, we got to get up an hour, hour and a half earlier. We need to go down the ridge and then we need to go down in the drainage and approach those elk a different way. And so, you know, similar to that, like, you know, we bumped a lot of elk. We, we bump a lot of elk being aggressive, trying to get in tight, you know, as they're bugling a little bit more during the dark and try to be, you know, you get as close as possible without, you know, you're kind of

we're running that risk of is it going to be daylight by time, you know, everything. So you're kind of shadowing the herd and we do a lot of that same stuff. Very aggressive play, but at least we're on those elk as soon as daylight hits. Yeah, and like you mentioned, a lot of times you have to approach from the bottom and that's, I mean, that's tough too to try and chase down elk up a mountain. Yeah.

Like you're saying, it's easier to be on top, but sometimes that's not necessarily the best position to kill those elk on top where they can smell you. So a lot of it, yeah, I guess it just comes down to feel. I mean, I like to be right on top of elk as the sun rises. A lot of people maybe would rather take that easier route. Yep, yep. So...

Thank you very much for those two. Once again, if you have any questions of your own, please email them at ctd at phelpsgamecalls.com and we'll do our best to get those answered for you. So now we're going to jump into some questions that I have for Trent and just some information that I want to talk about. I think it's important and we'll get it started off with the moon phase. Does the moon phase affect

how you hunt or plan your hunt, how you take your days off or your vacation, any of that, and kind of how does moon phase, uh, affect your archery elk hunting? I mean, I, I've gone back and forth on this, I guess, just, I don't know, as experiences start to kind of rack up. Um, I, uh,

still as a whole the full moon you know week has always been slower for me but then i've also seen being able to hunt you know basically um the entire month of september the ebbs and flows of the elk rut as a whole you think that you know just because we get into late september and the fact that there's no moon that the elk rut's just going to be off the charts no matter what and i've seen that not be the case either where you have quiet woods so um i mean my usual pattern anymore is

I don't necessarily, I can't say I don't enjoy it, but the two week long trips,

are hard on me. I like to just like those five, six day blocks, especially being in state, obviously this is easier, but if I could just plan those five, six day blocks out, um, and if the rut's not happening, you know, I, I kind of have some freedom, I can go home or whatever. And if it really is happening, I can take a couple extra days off. And that's really kind of how I play it anymore. When it's good, I try and stay on them when it's not, you know, obviously I still hunt hard and try some different tactics like sitting wallows, but you also, you

you know, you got to pick your vacation days wisely. And, and that's, I've been lucky enough to go about it in that way instead of the moon phase. So yeah, the full moon, I don't like it. I don't like hunting during it necessarily. It gives me a feeling that it's not going to be good, but, um, I've had it to where, you know, there's bulls bugling on the full moon, just like no moon. So.

Yep. And do you find that those bulls are just more active at night during that moon phase versus, you know, a lot less rutting action during the day when you can hunt versus they're doing all of it at night? Um, or do you just feel that it shuts them down a little bit? Yeah. I mean, I, I, I do feel that way. I think the full moon there, you know, they're more active, they're out feeding all night. Um,

And then honestly, I guess another thing I try and do is camp up high. And a lot of that experience being camped up high on ridgetops has allowed me to listen for elk as I'm sleeping in my wall tent at night. That's kind of become an important thing too, is being able to kind of keep track, you know, what the elk are doing with any different moon phase or weather pattern in the middle of the night. And then that

has helped jumpstart me to, to, to the stuff I want to do in the morning. But, um, just being able to kind of keep track of them during the night and seeing what, what changes with these elk patterns in the full moon. I'm on board fully, you know, moon phase always seems to, you know, knock the rut down from where it was. And then there always seems to be a phase after, you know, the full moon where things pick back up. I'd prefer to hunt on the back end of a full moon. Um,

And just seems that the action, but you know, we don't get to pick when it is and how it coordinates with the full rut. So, you know, I'm, I'm, you know, limited days in September. I'm usually out there regardless. You know, and, and I did an experiment, you know, I'm an engineer by trade and my mind works that way. So, you know,

I remember it was back in like maybe 2015, 16. I went back and I could remember all the dates that I had killed elk on, you know, either through pictures or I could just remember the days very distinctly and then went and checked that with the moon phase. And I had killed to that point, like three or four of my biggest bulls on like two days of either side of the full moon. And, you know, whether, and whether it's just a coincidence or whether there's correlation and then,

One year we went up in a, in a wilderness area and hung a camera specifically on what I would consider a more wide open wallow. You know, it was a natural spring out, out more in the sun, the heat high in a basin where elk typically wouldn't be in the middle of the day.

We set the trail camera up there and to my surprise, I could never do this again. We didn't have a picture of a deer, didn't have a picture of a bear, didn't have a picture of anything, not even cows, nothing but bulls, you know, the entire month of August. I think it was 670 odd pictures of bulls. And I didn't do this, but my buddy did it, but I was able to look at the data. We went and looked at

you know, the snapshot of, and we removed duplicates, but we went and looked at like when that bull was out in the middle of the heat and, you know, or even nighttime and checked it against moon phase. And by the time we were done, I'm like, man, there's really no rhyme or reason. Like it didn't matter that month if it was before the moon, whether it was during full moon or whether it was on, you know, the trailing moon, like it didn't seem to matter on when those elk were, you know, daytime, nighttime, any of that.

um now i'm not telling everybody don't pay attention to it because it's obvious you've you've experienced you know a a little bit of lack in in in the rut and i've experienced the same thing but i i guess the general consensus is pay attention to the moon phase you know plan your vacation accordingly but um there's only so many days in september and and uh i'd i'd just soon be out there struggling through the moon phase versus you know being at home but um you know

there's also guys out there with limited time and, um, you know, effort, you know, as you said, you get burned down, you know, a little bit from chasing them during those hard times. So, uh, yeah, that, that's kind of where we're at on, on the moon phase. Pay attention to it. Um, it does matter, but, um, it is what it is, especially during September.

Yeah. And I know that my answer maybe necessarily doesn't help somebody plan their vacation on the moon phase. You know, my answer basically is just hunt when you can, kind of like yours. I mean, and you're going to have higher chances of elk bugling in the later half of September. So I think that's a, that's a better bet than, I mean, I would bet on that.

more so than I would, you know, come in early in September because the moon's better, I guess is what I'm trying to get at. Don't, don't necessarily make the moon your deciding factor and think that the Elk Red's going to be better on September 3rd than it is on September 27th. You know, it's,

Yeah. That's a, that's a great point. Um, you know, and then trying to, you know, we could talk about all the differences between where the moon phases versus the, you know, the time in September and, um, you'd have to write a book on how to figure it out. So, uh, yeah, I agree with you there. Uh, you live, you know, in Wyoming, hunt in Wyoming, um, you know, the heart of wolf country, um,

My Idaho spot is in wolf country and my Montana spots are, you know, covered up in wolves. In your opinion, what is different? How did the elk react different? Whether there are wolves in the area, actively in the area, and then how do you kind of adapt your strategies to deal with wolves in the same spot you want to hunt elk? I don't know that. I think.

For a while, it was... And I don't know if I just jumped on the bandwagon or not or what necessarily happened, but it was not for a while that the elk got a whole lot quieter. And I think to some degree...

That's true. Um, but we have, we have a few places that, that are pretty heavy in wolf country. And I can't say that I necessarily hunted any different than I, than I did before or, or would hunt it any differently. I can't say there's a correlation and them timbering up more or anything like that. And, and I, I don't know if it's because the wolf packs out here have such a huge home range. Um,

that it doesn't bother them as much, but I, I just back to kind of what we started with. And the fact that this is glory days of elk hunting in Wyoming is almost, you know, units across the board, you know, give or take a few are, are high in population. And, uh, I think just the elk rut, just by that fact alone is, I mean, I, I guess to shorten it up, I haven't seen much of a change as far as how I approach things, wolves or no wolves.

- Yeah, that's great information from, you know, you've been in that same area for the, you know, what, 20 plus years and, you know, not to see a difference. Coming from Western Washington where we don't have wolves and I get to go hunt, you know, spots like Idaho or Montana, I noticed like a small localized difference. We hunt an area that has what I would consider three major drainages out of it. And then we can be high and we can listen into them at night.

And if we hear wolves howling in the evening or at any time throughout the day in that specific drainage, we can almost guarantee it's gonna be a little bit quieter than maybe it was the day before. Or if we've been hunting the same area for the last week, it's like, all right, it seems to be a little dead. Now, whether that's just, once again, coincidental, but we're almost to the point now where if we do hear wolves in a certain drainage, we'll just pick a different one to go into, whether it's in my head or...

Or I just think they're bugling less. Kind of like you said, we kind of just bought into that they're having a huge effect. But

Once we get in tight, I feel like I just have to get in a little bit closer, maybe a little bit more intimate with these elk, and then we can get them to talk again. They're not just completely mute. They don't talk for the entire day. They don't decide that the wolves are around. They're going to be quiet for the next 48 hours. In my opinion, they're still elk. They're still rutting. They're doing what elk do. They may just be a little bit more tight-lipped, and they require you to be a little bit closer before they're going to open up and talk back to you.

Yeah. And I don't know that, that I just have, you know, maybe a skewed perception just because the populations are doing so well, because I know that, you know, talking with guys in Idaho and stuff where the population has crashed because of wolves, that's not the case. And I, I, I've heard the same thing from guys that, you know, go hunting the thoroughfare in Wyoming too, that the experience is a whole lot different, but yeah.

But I haven't, A, walked in there that far into the thoroughfare kind of stuff and don't have a horse to get in there. So these places, you know, like Northern Idaho, I've heard the stories of, I mean, if the population is going to crash and these elk know that wolves are predator number one, I can very much imagine that that's the case.

For sure. I appreciate that tip from, from a guy that's hunted, you know, the same air, you know, same general area for, for lots of years. And then, you know, be able to give us a real good read on, you know, in your opinion, how wolves have affected it. So my next question for you, Trent is living in Wyoming. Um, you've got some pretty liberal hunting season dates, uh, you know, aside from Montana, I think you guys maybe have the longest general, um, you know, archery elk season. Um, so it's kind of the perfect question for you, um,

When do you find the most success? You know, you can hunt anywhere from the beginning of September to the end of September and then, um, you know, kind of explain, you know, pre pre-rut, peak rut, post-rut, and when you found your most success and then what you've, what you found in the other two, um, you know, times. I, um, kind of like you, I've, I noticed when I was killing my best bulls and they were all earlier in September. So, um,

I had success early in September for a lot of years, but I also, the only thing that I'll add in about like season dates in Wyoming is I used to not necessarily be just, just a strict archery elk hunter either. There's,

seasons in Wyoming, like deer seasons in Alpine that opened September 15th. So a lot of, you know, some years I'd go and I'd elk hunt the first, you know, 10, 15 days of September, whatever I could make work and then go rifle deer hunt. And so I think sometimes, you know, especially, you know, early in my career when I didn't have as much vacation, I had to pick and choose. I really enjoyed elk hunting early, um, and then going and doing other things and trying to just fit in as much stuff as I could. So I had more success early and, um,

I thought maybe, you know, I had unlocked the key and I don't know that that's necessarily the case anymore. I just think it was all about timing. But as far as going through September, I really, I guess I just try and feel that I just try and match the mood of the elk. Early September, the last few years has been relatively dead. We've had a couple of times where on September 1st, where elk,

haven't had any pressure you know they're screaming the night before on august 31st or whatever and we've had a pretty good hunt or there's a day or two like september 3rd or 4th where elk are screaming pretty good and

you're able to kind of play the game with them a little bit before everybody else starts to. But still just trying to kind of let out some slower location bugles, kind of those where are you bugles that are quieter in the timber and just kind of really digging these elk out more so than trying to hunt

hunt them out to have screaming matches with them, I think has really helped me. I've been able to locate elk when seemingly others can't just by doing that, just by kind of getting in close into their bedding area, trying to play the wind and then letting out just these little grunts or, or little calls to tell them, you know, asking these elk where they are. And I've been answered by basically the same bugle back, just a really low, almost half bedded bugle. I know, you know what I'm talking about, Jason, but.

And then as protruding into September, I mean, just still trying to match their intensity. When it starts getting good, middle of September, that first real good rutting activity, you know, I'll try and scream with them as much as I can. With that said, I'm usually hunting elk solo. And it's just really tough to be your own caller and shooter. So a lot of times I'm trying to get in as close as I can. If I feel like I can't just spot and stalk them or locate them and then stalk in,

I'm getting in as close as I can basically throw in whatever calls I, I think are going to close the deal for me. And then running forward, uh, basically as much as I feel comfortable, whether that's 20 yards or a hundred yards, depending on the terrain is basically my go-to is. And then as we move through September, like we talked about a little bit before those ebbs and flows of the season, when it's really hot, I mean, I'll just go more aggressive. And then as September moves on and we get through those ebbs and flows of the season, just matching them and figuring out what makes them tick and,

staying close to them all day, really. Yeah. I've got a little bit of input here. Washington, we're limited to about a 10-day plus or minus season. They add a day or take a day away here. But our seasons have moved from the first day after Labor Day to the 12th. And then at some time, it went from the 10th to the 24th. But I know way back when, the 10th to the 13th were my better days. Right before the peak, things were just getting going. And that's when I had found...

like my most success is like, all right, we're, we're kind of out of the pre pre-rut, but we're right on the cusp of, of what I would consider to the peak rut, kind of the main breeding season. And that's when I found success. I, right as those bulls are starting to get, you know, a little bit amped up and a little bit testy. And that was kind of my time to use my more aggressive calling style. And then, you know, post-rut it, I don't

I don't know. I'm not one of those guys that buys into the rut super late or the rut didn't happen this year, but I've been able to spend a lot more time out in the woods, you know, with some of the October Montana seasons or, you know, some of the units in Wyoming and let you continue to hunt in October and

Um, and I found that the rut still cranking pretty dang good, you know, in the October 1st, you know, all the way even to the October 10th and some of these areas I've hunted, um, which, you know, whether people, I think the majority of people would consider that post rut, whether it's younger cows coming back in a second time or, you know, just cows coming in late. Um, but yeah.

As of late, it seems like the hunting can be really good, even through that first part of October. But there's no denying the peak rut for most people is what you're out there after. To hear lots of bugles, a lot of action, and not necessarily have to guess where they're at.

Yeah. And we have just to add onto it a little bit more, we have rifle elk tags that open a lot of them open October 15th and a lot, I mean, geez, it's very rare that I go a year without hearing a bull on the morning of October 15th. Sometimes when rifles start, uh, rifle shots start zinging out, it shuts them up, but pad it to where I've chased bugles from basically the entire week. I'm up there rifle elk hunting. Uh, you know, I'm kind of treating it like

Like it's the middle of the rut. I'm able to bugle at them and get them to answer. And obviously you're using a rifle. So the range factor becomes a whole lot better. You don't have to get near as close, but yeah, the October stuff has been really good too.

Being a guy that I have to ask a question just because it always kind of catches me off guard. Being an archer hunter that goes rifle, does it take you a little bit on that first morning? I don't got a bow in my hand anymore. I can just shoot that from where I'm at. It's always kind of like I have to laugh at myself because you go from bow mode for the last month to, hey, this game just got a whole lot easier. Yeah, absolutely. I've had a couple times where

My wife's been getting into elk hunting a little bit. She never did with her family before meeting me, but she loves listening to elk bugle and being a part of it. Anyway, I've had a couple times where I'm trying to put the pieces together on how to get close to these bulls. You got it, at least in my brain, that I'm not going to call elk across a canyon and I'm not going to do all these things. I'm trying to mentally figure out what I'm going to do. Then I just turn to her and go...

Well, geez, I guess all we have to do is have them step out in the middle of this meadow and they're 300 yards away and life's good. So yeah, same kind of thing. All you really have to do is get their attention, have them bugle back and the game's on or just move them, you know, a little bit and you're in the game as well.

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I've talked to you in the past a little bit. I know you get up extremely early. You'll do some things like stay up late and even glass if the moonlight allows, night locating, you know, road bugling. Can you kind of explain, you know, I think it's obvious why you do it, but kind of your strategy and, you know, putting in all that extra effort to make sure that you're on elk, you know, to start start with.

Yeah, the road bugling stuff I really do when I've got nothing going, kind of how we started the beginning of this podcast, which like if I, if nothing's happened the evening before, I've just got, you know, I've got no idea what, what I'm going to do the next day. I'll just wake up and road bugle. Um, that kind of touched on sleeping up high on a ridgetop has helped too. Cause I, I mean, I've been woke up by bulls bugling before, but road bugling is huge just to, um,

Yeah, to start the day when I've got nothing going on. I mean, I've got up as early as three o'clock in the morning when I just really haven't figured anything out for a couple of days. That gives you time to hit some trailhead. I mean, road bugling kind of extended, hit some trailheads. You can walk a half mile, three quarters of a mile to a high point that you know, you know, nobody else is going to even hear that bugle that you're going to have the entire woods to yourself. And to be able to be able to scream down these ridgetops, you know, half mile, three quarters of a mile, mile, whatever you need to do.

When these bulls are most active to get these responses is huge and doesn't obviously mean that it ends up in my favor every time. But just to have that avenue to go with has just become something that I do religiously. And even I guess when I do have something to go on, waking up early in the morning, running down the ridgetop, bugling at these elk.

and seeing if they're in the same spot I left them or if they've switched ridges and, you know, I got to do something else in the dark to get in position rather than selling out and being in the wrong spot is something else I'll do, um, that I consider the road bugling. And then the other part of waking up early really is just it's gamesmanship on, on general tag public lands. I mean, you get to a spot and you hope that if you're parked there, you know, the next guy won't walk in. Uh, it's not always the case obviously, but I mean, most of the time out

outdoorsman elk hunters are, are, uh, pretty respectful of that. And so I don't want to leave a lot of things up to luck, especially if I do have something going my way. So to get up early, get to where I want to park, you know, maybe walk in that half mile, mile, listen to the, listen to the woods, wake up, whatever I need to do is all part of waking up early that I'm lucky that I guess I'm able to, I've always been one of those people that just has no problem waking up early in the morning and I'm excited to go elk hunting. And when it's time to go, it's time to go.

Yeah. Those are all, you know, the same things we do. And it's hard to, to kind of drill that into somebody who said, you know, it's like they want to be asleep when it gets dark or back to camp or, you know, even as far as like only hunting to a point where you could then return and be back to your truck by dark. I've used some of those opportunities. Like I'm just going to sit out at the end of a ridge until dark because I've got to walk back an hour and a half and what better location or area to just listen on the way back. You know, some of these things that separate, you know,

um, yeah, I separate the, the, I'm going to say it, the 90% is from the 10% is, is, you know, people that want to be back to their truck by dark because it's more comfortable. And then they're eating their dinner earlier. Like I'm willing to give up some of those luxuries in order to, I'm just going to sit out here until it gets dark, listen for a little bit longer because I, I should have put myself in a good area if I'm doing everything else. Right. You know, and then

Um, you know, one thing we do is a lot of night locating. If we're not on elk, if we know they're elk in a certain area and we've got them patterned, then we'll just leave the other elk alone. Um, not harass them, but you know, if we're not on elk or we haven't found them within a day or we're in a unit, we'll just start driving roads or like you said, hiking short trails out locating at night. And then once we do locate them, we're leaving them alone. But, um,

It goes back to that idea that like, I want to be on an elk every morning. I actually want to be sitting on elk every midday and I want to be hunting those elk at night. Like I don't want to be looking for elk during times that I can be killing elk, um, is, is kind of, is kind of my strategy. Yeah. And you're exactly right. And I'll, I'll even just add to the point a little bit more. I've,

you know, had those times where late in the evening, I'm busting it to get back to the truck before it's dark and, you know, back to bringing up my wife. She thinks we're done for the day and I have to mention to her, no, I'm, I'm busting it so that we can get to the truck, get up here and then I can hurry and run up this ridge and go glass because, you know, it's evening time, everything's coming out to feed. It's dead where we're at and I got to have something figured out by tomorrow, you know, or I'm not going to know what to do. So just another little piece of that, you know, busted out of there maybe, but use every remaining piece of daylight that,

you can to locate elk.

That's a great tip. And, uh, you know, it is, I've said it many times, but you can't kill elk unless you got some elk located. So you're willing to do whatever it takes to locate those, put in the effort and, you know, stay later, get up earlier. Um, all is going to add to your success. So we've, we just touched a little bit. It was a great segue into, you know, getting up super early, trying to be on elk, right. And, you know, first daylight, you know, hunting all the way till the end of the day. What's, what's your strategy midday? Do you hunt midday? Do you sit on elk? Do you try to hunt bedded elk? Um,

Do you utilize that 10 to 2, 10 to 4 timeline to harvest elk, kill elk? I guess that 10 to 2 timeframe is about the only time

during elk season that I have any patience at all. I feel like in the morning and in the evening, if you can't tell already, you know, I'm running around like a madman trying to either get on elk or get in perfect position that 10 to two, nothing's going on. That's the only time I have any patience. Um, you know, I've heard bulls crack off midday just by staying in the woods. Um, everybody else goes back to camp.

just stay in the woods. I mean, it's also about the only time I read a book too. So I'll take a book in there with me, read a book or whatever, and just be where I either lost those elk in the morning, um, or get to a spot where I think the elk could be, you know, bedded at and start making noise in the early afternoon. Just something again, to be in position during, during prime time. Um, and there's, there's still plenty of days too, where I go back to camp. I mean, I guess as I've gotten older, I'm 31 now that never would have been the case probably. Um,

But I do enjoy the camping aspect too. And it's also, you know, it's still vacation as well. So there's times I get caught up and, you know, let's just go back to camp and let's have a beer and let's regroup because we've got nothing going. And I don't know that staying out midday is going to help us. And sometimes those regroup times are important too. For sure. Yeah. Keeping that, you know, morale up, motivation up. You know, a quick story from last year, New Mexico, super hot. We had...

This may even be exaggerating, you know, hour max to hunt them in the morning and a half an hour at night to hunt them. And those midday, like midday madness is what I call it because I was going crazy just having to sit on bed at elk. And that was one of, you know, similar to you, like you almost just have to, you know, we just talked about doing everything we can to find elk and keep yourself in the game and kill elk.

But there were a few days where we're just like, man, we got to go back to camp. You know, same thing. Have a cold beer kind of just, you know, unwind because, you know, the midday in some of these areas was certain elk. It just it's not going to happen.

Um, you know, but there are times if, if the bull's responsive or gives us bedded bugles or, you know, is at least, you know, you know, talking to us, we will go in if we can get the wind right. Um, and try to kill them in the middle of the day. Um, but a lot of times these elk bed in spots that in my opinion, just too risky, um, to go in there in the middle of the day, I'd rather just wait, you know,

until that evening or the following morning without blowing them out of the country. Yeah, a lot of times, I'm sure like you, you notice they're bedded in like bowls. And I'm sure a lot of that has to do with shade, but it also has to do with... I mean, I know you've noticed that anytime you enter a bowl, the wind starts to shift every direction. And even though you've got maybe winds you can count on when you start, as soon as you get in that bowl, it seems like I have to back out a lot of times. And in Wyoming, where the wind blows constantly, you seem to...

just have shifty winds a lot of times in the middle of the day anyway yeah uh they they've got that sense that they you know i'm sure it's innate and they they do it on purpose but uh yeah they they bed down where there's no way for you to approach because the wind and it's frustrating as heck but that's one of the reasons why they they they're there obviously

All right, so you're in the middle of the season. We've kind of heard your answer a little bit. It sounds like maybe you go home, but when the elk aren't bugling, kind of what's your next move? How are you going to go find them? How are you going to approach them? What's your strategy when they're just not talking? I mean, first, I wouldn't like to go home, and there's sometimes...

you know, in the middle of a weekend or something where I wouldn't, um, it just comes down. That aspect just comes down to vacation days and what a guy can use. Um, but as far as elk, uh, elk, not talking, I mean, going about finding them, I just end up reverting back to, um, all my road bugling stuff. And then the, the patience factor that I guess we just kind of hit on, I'll try, um,

And even if I don't sit them, I've had very little success sitting wallows. But I guess I've had zero success sitting wallows. I mean, I've found wallows that are seemingly being used.

sat on them and had nothing come in or in seeing game game cam pics where elk have come in, you know, the day before at noon or two o'clock or whatever. But that's always, I think that's what I probably reverted to last year was I walked streams, I found wallows, I sat wallows and it didn't work. I mean, just, I guess doing anything to, to think outside the box and do something that I wasn't doing before, um, without driving myself completely crazy. And, and

And last year, early September, I, I know I had one day where we all kind of, and the high was 79 degrees, which is, you know, really hot for Wyoming mountains. And so I just knew that wallows were the best way to get it done. And I still couldn't figure anything out. So, um,

you know i guess to sum it all up when i can't when elk aren't bugling it's tough out i just try and do something different sit wallows um i'll sit on bedding areas um as careful as you can so that you're not doing more harm than good um staying in the woods and then being up earlier and later really yeah i'm in the same boat i've tried to hunt wallows i'm very impatient and so

my whole thought is I'm going to go there. I'm going to be really patient. I'm going to have a good, comfortable seat. And I get there for about 10 minutes and it's like, this is, you know, I'm either going to fall asleep or, you know, the wind isn't doing what I want. And so similar to you, I've had absolutely zero success on wallows. Now what I have did where wallows have, you know, been, been a contributor to my success is we just get near them and we can maybe hear a beagle off of them or, and we're able to use that wallow to kind of jump, jumpstart. And then

When elk aren't bugling, I always kind of try to think like, where are they? You know, if we haven't seen them in the morning or in the evening, like I'm looking, I'm looking at hillsides. I'm looking for dark timber patches, maybe a little bit more mellow than the rest of the terrain around it. 2018 Idaho, we threw a dart at a map, ended up in a brand new unit, never been there. And one of the most frustrating things for me right off the bat is spotting an elk,

with your binoculars, five, 600 yards away. And then us just, we, we know they didn't see us. They just came out in an opening. We will be able, you'll hear them or you'll, you'll see them look at you and they won't make a peep. And you've already made beagles before that because you were just trying to sound check an area. And so we were kind of in, in this, um, you know, like what the heck there's, Oh, and it wasn't just one, it was multiples. Like

I felt like we were in a very good spot with a good density of elk, but yet they just would not answer and wouldn't answer the next day. They wouldn't answer, you know, they would answer a little bit better at night, but it made it very, very difficult. And you had almost zero confidence that you weren't walking by elk. And one of the things we did, um, dialed up on X, whatever mapping you do, we looked for, you know, steep, you know, North facing stuff that was in the shade. Very, you know, it was a hot, uh,

a hot season, all the stuff above tree line was dried out, no food. So we just kind of thought like, oh, where are they going to be? Where should we go check? And so what we did is we started getting into those areas more early morning, which I would say those would be areas we avoid because we couldn't glass into them. And by doing that, just looking for

you know, thicker timber, better shade, you know, better bedding on the North side. They weren't even utilizing the South side for food or any of the open meadows. They were just kind of hanging out in the timber surviving in there because, you know, and that was one of those tips that we just kind of had to adapt from where the elk probably wanted to be, but due to the temperature, um,

um, you know, and them not bugling, we just had to go get into their lap, you know, and go where they were. And they were spending a lot of, and once we found them, it was almost easy. Like, Hey, any, any North facing slope with shade was some sort of bench or, or bowl is, is holding out. And were they just ask you where that was that,

did that move make getting close to those elk on those kinds of slopes? Did that make them more responsive to calling or was that just basically a sneak in and here's your chance kind of stuff? No, I'm, I'm not the most sneaky guy, Trent. So we use, once we, once, once we found them, we would just kind of slowly turn the temperature up. We, we've talked about on this podcast a lot before. Um, we talk about turning the temperature up on elk because a lot of times when you'd get into these elk that weren't big in a lot on their own, they're just naturally, um,

um, you know, hesitant to be able, they're not super fired up. They just kind of, it's a ho-hum, you know, I always think of it like Eeyore, um, if he was an elk, like, you know, do to do, you know, they just, they just, they answer when they want, they don't really get aggressive, but we would slowly turn the pace up on them. We would, you know, cow call, maybe a little light bugle, and then we'd slowly get more aggressive and we could eventually get that bull fired up. Um,

on the fourth or fifth day we were able to take an exceptional ball out of this unit especially for this unit and um we just slow played him and we ended up they were they were feeding a little bit lower on the north slope and they were coming back up to their bed and we were able to get him um all sorts of ticked off and you know it's kind of some we got this one on video really cool video he kind of just finally gets so mad at us he just like barrels through you know an an

an impenetrable wall of brush and we get like a 10 yard shot on them. But, um, yeah, it was in that basin that day, that area had multiple herd bulls just screaming in it. And so it was just a, you know, not our typical spot, not our typical strategy where we typically want to find elk, but, um, you know, they were being quiet. It was hot out and we just had to go find them in a, you know, we had to go find where they were. Um, and that's what worked for us.

Next question for you. You're out there. What sign? I mean, typically it sounds like you're on elk in the morning or night, but what are you paying attention to while you hunt? I always preach, you want to be an educated elk hunter.

I'm maybe over the top, but I'm paying attention to tracks in the dust in front of me, you know, on the trail, or I'm paying attention to where multiple elk may have crossed the path I'm on. You know, scat, rubs, fresh rubs, you know, wallows that are mudded up. All of this stuff I'm like constantly just building on and trying to put together a game plan. What are you looking for? What's most important while you're out there hunting to kind of, you know, draw the roadmap to your success?

I guess similar to you. I mean, the biggest thing is just looking for freshness, of course. Rubs tells me that there's bulls in the area that are acting ruddy. And then I guess just to even go along with that a little same thing with lots of tracks or even lack of human presence, I guess, is a lot of what I look for inside. If I'm the only boots on the trail or whatever,

or that's walked in onto a point to call from or anything like that. That's important to me too. If I'm seeing fresh elk sign, um, and I'm the only one that's been in there, then I know at least I've got that spot cornered. And then I, the only other thing I guess I can really add to it is I'll look for like, um,

close together pea spots i know that elk are living in that timber when i'm in it especially when things get tough is you know walk through the timber and you'll see even stuff that's relatively old a couple days you can see where elk have peed in the woods and so um i guess same as you i guess i'm always being attentive to but to can to explain exactly what i'm looking for i don't know if i can put my finger on that necessarily

Yeah, just all of those general things. But yeah, the boot presence is a great one that we're also calculating into the area and it kind of adds up to what I feel our future success in that area is. And yeah, something that's very important if you can hunt an area that doesn't have other people. I always like my odds better in those spots for sure versus...

me and Nate Simmons talked about this a little bit, like taking our odds in an area that maybe has less elk, but no people versus an area with lots of people, but lots of elk, I would almost always pick

I'll take less elk with no people or less people. And, you know, that way it's truly a game, you know, you versus the elk versus like you said, the gamesmanship of having to beat people to certain areas or people making what I consider, you know, unethical decisions or coming in the wrong way at the wind just to try to beat you. I'm not interested in hunting that way, if at all possible. Yeah. And I...

I've, I mean, probably like most elk hunters, I branched out and found different spots, but it's the spot, and you probably have some of these too, this is the spot I grew up elk hunting that

you know, you learn every game trail in the place, you know, or out go to bed, you know, or that, you know, if they're not in this spot, they're in this spot. And I spend the vast majority of my September, you know, within the same general area. And just the knowledge that I have in a place is so hard to leave. And that's like when you were talking about, you know, when things get tough to revert back to that for just a second. I mean, you can almost see the

the woods leave, you know, people are leaving. It's tough. Everybody's, everybody's leaving. I almost take that as a positive, you know, everybody's leaving and getting out of here. And this is my chance to have maybe a little bit more relaxed elk. And, and although there were a lot of people here now, you know, maybe with this lack of presence, we can get something done. Yep. I like less people. Um, and I, I don't, I don't, I've did this long enough, found enough success that, uh,

I always try to remember it just takes one. You can have the worst 10 days of elk hunting followed up by one good culling with the bull of your lifetime, and it's that simple. That's why it's easy seeing it happen and come to fruition year after year or time after time. It's easy for me to be motivated just because I've seen it happen, but I think...

you know, everybody else out there that maybe hasn't found a whole lot of success. Um, it's easier to, to, you know, fold up camp and go home or, or to leave an area. And, uh, you know, as long as there's elk there, um, and you're hunting, there's always a chance.

So, yeah. And then we've touched on this a little bit earlier, Trent. You know, you don't always call. And so I want to just get a little bit your calling strategy. And then when you decide not to call, like when the scenario or what, what, you know, adds up to a decision where you're not going to call to an elk and you're going to go spot and stock. I mean, I,

I guess to start, I realize I'm talking with Jason Phelps who made his living making game calls. So I guess I grew up, well, A, I grew up as a rifle hunter. I didn't start bow hunting milk until I was like 17 years old.

So I really didn't have any very many calling skills at all. Um, and it's just kind of, you know, it comes as, as you start bow hunting, but I always just kind of got in my head that, um, the best chance I had to kill a bull was when they didn't know you were there. And I still abide by that. Uh, you know, a lot of the time, I think if I don't make that bull, make a decision, whether he's got to come and go, I think my chances are pretty high. Uh,

A lot of times, you know, just in the woods, that's impossible to do. So I just feel the situation out basically by that. Like, can I locate that bull and sneak my way in and kill him? You know, starting from there all the way to do I is this dude in thick cover and I've got to get in there and he's got cows and I'm going to have to rip a bugle in his face and get him fired up and have him come fight me. So I just let.

The terrain basically, you know, lead me to what I have to do. If I feel like I cannot get any closer, you know, a, if I don't know where this bull is, I'm going to have to make him make some noise. And then B, if I can't get any closer, you know, the terrain's wide open or, or the timber's wide open or whatever, and I'm going to have to call it to them, then that's how I'll do it that way. But that's about as difficult as I make my decision-making.

Yeah. So let me ask you a different question. Have you found that, you know, more, your, your more mature bulls have come? Are you, you know, I've heard a lot of people, you know, Nate Simmons, um, you know, there's Chuck Adams, some of these guys that don't call as much as I do, you know, and some guys saying that they've killed their bigger bulls or their better bulls. Have you found that you're able to not call in some of these bigger, you know, more, um,

I would say educated herd bulls, or have you not found that to be the case? Or have you found more success spot and stalking these larger, more mature bulls? The first big bull I killed was purely spot and stalk. I spotted him in open terrain and stalked in there. But probably the most memorable bull I've killed, a 6x7, was a mix. And I learned this bull through screwing up on him.

basically for three years straight with a bow and a rifle. I mean, he was in, like we've mentioned, a heavily hunted unit, but he was secretive when he needed to be and knew how to survive. So I called that bull in and just, I mean, this is just a case where I learned one elk and this one elk has helped me so tremendously on learning everything as a whole as far as hunting other bulls. But yeah.

called him in and just immediately could see the demeanor about how this elk acted when I didn't call, you know, he was kind of, um, happy-go-lucky and bugling at will. And then when I called, he'd shut up and he'd sneak in for a look. And I had him sneak in like two or three different times. And so I guess just as the days hunting and progressed, I got quieter on my end. I learned him more and more and he had a relatively big hair of a cows. And, and so, uh,

I think a lot of how I approach elk hunting now is just due to that bull and the decisions I made in watching him respond to my calling. And then ultimately kind of doing a mix, I guess, as far as that bull is concerned, because I did call to him quite regularly to get him to answer me. And I did call him in a couple of times. But, you know, the shooting opportunity just never presented itself. And then I guess just a few other bulls.

scattered through the years, my calls were more based on timing than they were anything else. I mean, I know in one instance, um, I heard a bull bugling in the bottom and all I did was let out a couple of cow calls and he, and he crashed right in and, and I killed him at 19 yards. And it, you know, that's one of those days where you think elk hunting is the easiest thing you've ever done, where the entire year that never happened. Well, as I'm

you know, kind of tracking this bull around and he's alone. I think it was September 21st snow on the ground. I couldn't figure out why this bull was by himself. I ran into fresh cow and calf tracks.

And what I got, you know, what I kind of put together in my mind was those elk were down there feeding the cow and calf took off up the mountain and we're ahead of this bull. And I just happened to interject myself right in the middle, let out some perfectly timed calls and he came in and, you know, died at my arrow. So I guess, you know, to sum it all up, it's, it's always a mix for me. I'll spot and stalk him when I need to and, and, and call to him when I need to as well.

Yeah. And why I like to go out there and call, um, I'm not above, you know, if a certain bull in a certain area allows me to spot in stock, I'm not above, you know, just doing what's needed. There are times and you have to make that decision for yourself, but, um, I I'd much rather them come in screaming, but also recognize, um, there's a lot of good elk hunters, you know, Brian Barney, you know, there's a group of them that, that they just don't like to touch calls for the same thing that you said they would rather not

not ever let that bull know that they're, you know, they exist or they're on the ground. And, and I use a lot of that all up until the point where we do call, you know, we kind of call it shock and awe where that bull, hopefully we haven't called for the last 20, 30 minutes, 40, you know, hour, whatever it may be, or ideally if we don't need to call it even locate, and we won't make a peep until we're, you know, 40, 50 yards, uh,

from them and then we just hammer them with the beagle if the situation allows now if we can spot and stalk we might not ever make a call and continue on so um i think the uh the ability to remain you know uh silent and and and not put you know make that bull aware of your your uh your location or your existence is to our advantage no matter what we're hunting no matter what approach we're going to take

Yeah. And there could be ways where, you know, there's, there's multiple ways to kill an elk when, when everything's right. And I think it just comes down to what you have confidence in. If me and you were hunting the same bull, you know, I might choose to just stock in where you might choose to start your playbook at them. And that's just, you know, difference between two guys hunting elk and you got to do what you're, what you're confident in, in the end, whatever you think is going to give you the best chance of success.

Yep. Yep. Yeah. Develop your own strategy, your own skillset, what you're confident in and rock that. In closing, Trent, if you had one tip to help elk hunters be successful this year, what would it be? I think my tip is mostly, uh,

I guess a mental tip and that just cause I've seen it go the other way so many times and to try and harness this whole, the elk hunting success is tough. And so I just think if, if a person, especially if they're new at elk hunting, if you can get, if you can gain confidence from the things that necessarily didn't go your way. So the, the line between, uh,

you know, when you have that close encounter, the line between success and not being successful is so thin. Sometimes it's, you know, you set up barely wrong. Sometimes you could have done everything right. And the bowl, you know, just came in at, at the wrong spot. Uh, but,

And just if you're able to just take a step back, that stuff that's frustrating where you think maybe that was your opportunity and that was your chance and you let it get away. If you can harness that and use that to gain success or gain confidence in, excuse me, you're going to be a whole lot better elk hunter because of it. If you can figure out, you know, look back on that and tweak your setup a little bit, figure out what you need to do to kill that elk. But take that, you know, memory as as a positive and not a negative. I think that works.

you know, that helps, that helps me out when I kind of figured out to do that. And I think it will other people too. Yeah. That's a great tip and something that, that I did as well. I really appreciate having you on here, Trent. Um, it's been a great conversation. Good luck this fall. And, uh, as always, uh, appreciate talking with you.

Thanks, Jason. I hope people can get out of this. I hope I didn't stutter too much and I hope it was enjoyable for everybody to listen to. No, you're good. We appreciate having you, Trent, and we'll catch up later. Thank you. Thank you.

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