Ep. 21: Mountain Whitetails and How to Hunt Them with Jon Gabrio
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I met John Gabriel about 15 years ago. We both grew up here in Western Washington and as iGroove helps game calls, John was kind of responsible for everything, website graphics and anything that made us look good. Became great friends over the years. John has had some great success in the field and maybe best known for his late season mountain whitetails here in Washington, but also gets it done on elk and mule deer every year. How are you doing, John? I'm good, man. I'm alive and kicking. Can't complain.

I think we first hunted together in 2016, Archery Idaho, and then the last time we hunted together was just recently here in New Mexico. Miu and Dirk went there in 2020. We've had some great trips together, but today I really want to dive in to whitetail hunting, whitetail calling, you know, everything whitetail. And I'm going to be completely honest, like I know enough, but I don't know the intricacies and the details. So I really want to dive in and talk to you about some of that, you know, on the

right on the heels of us launching our brand new deer call category which should be launched in October 10th you've got a chance to play around with them so we'll definitely dive into the new deer calls kind of the offering and what we're bringing to the table as far as that as well

Yeah, absolutely. I'm excited for that line of calls. You know, just for myself, obviously being a big whitetail hunter and whatnot, and I love it. And I got a chance to mess with them and obviously do the photography and whatnot for them too. And so it gave me a chance to kind of be hands on. And I'm excited for you guys to come out with those. Thanks. Thanks.

So now we're going to jump into our listener questions. Once again, if you have your own questions for me or our guests, um, please submit them at CTD at Phelps game calls.com. These ones are a little more geared towards whitetails. We'll be right up John's alley. Uh,

Um, the first one is when looking for a whitetail spot, just in general, what do you, what would you look for? Like, or, you know, back up to a 30,000 foot view, John, what makes a good whitetail spot, at least in the, in the wet, the Western, um, you know, mountains that you typically do your whitetail hunting.

Yeah, I would say the biggest key that I look for is I start tearing apart maps, Onyx and, you know, whatever else, Google Earth. The biggest thing that I'm looking for are pinch points, like ridges, big mountain ranges and a bunch of like finger ridges that'll run down into like a flat.

um, type of, uh, alder willow bottom type flat, or even some big timber, um, that has some water around, but it provides an ample, um, kind of trail system that those deer can come down. Those big bucks will kind of hang out up higher on the mountain. And as the rut starts, they'll kind of work their way down and into these benches and they'll travel the same kind of ridges coming down and then they'll hit no rut. And, um,

That would kind of be like the 30,000 foot view without really diving down into it after that. But really,

really looking for a lot of finger ridges like three, four, five, six that'll come together. And where those come together, those deer will travel down and they'll hit that bench. And then that's kind of where you'll have some of your best action. Gotcha. So in Washington specifically, since that's what you know the best and it may be, are you looking for certain elevations? Are you looking for three, no matter if the mountain goes up to 3000 feet, you're trying to be at like three quarters of that height? Are you...

How does that work? Are you, does any mountain hole whitetail, are you trying to get to like certain elevations or just certain areas on the ridgeline?

Yeah. So that, that's kind of the tough part. Um, I guess it really depends on weather, you know, like usually in November when we're over there, um, hunting them, the weather is key. And if you get up too high, like, you know, we've had years where all of a sudden a storm freak storm will come in and we'll get 20, 24 inches of snow and you can't even make it to some of your stands. So I kind of have several areas that I've picked out. Some of my stands are lower. They

And then some of my other stands are 3,500 to 43, 4,400 feet in elevation, anything above that 43, 4,400 feet. You're really risking it if a big snowstorm comes in. But I've found that a lot of those bucks will kind of hang out in that 3,500 to like 4,000 foot range. Um,

and some of the bigger deer are kind of in that higher 4,000, 4,200 range. Um, but you're definitely going to be pushing your, you know, you're chaining up usually a lot of years trying to get to those stands, but it's the best hunting. So it just kind of depends. I have a multitude of, you know, areas scouted out in different areas, depending on the weather. Um,

But definitely looking at those little bit higher elevations, some stands I've had at 5,000, 5,500 feet. And the thing you start running into there is mule deer. And so, you know, it's like, you know, you start fighting the mule deer herds, but I've had some giant whitetail bucks at that elevation too. So, yeah.

So, yeah, it just kind of depends. But I would say that 3,500 to 42-ish range is probably your best bet where I'm at. I know other guys that have hunted, they hunt them at 6,000 feet. So it just kind of depends.

Gotcha. So if I kind of reiterate what you said, you're looking for a lot of finger ridges that kind of lead into this, a similar or a shared bottom is, you know, so those travel corridors is what you're looking for, for a white tail spot that you want to invest some time. Yep. Yep. A hundred percent. Okay. Okay.

All right. Question number two, if you could only hunt for a 10 day section of the season, when would you hunt? Like, you know, so I guess give us your best action, you know, bucks pushing does. When would that 10 days be? Where I'm at, I would say probably like the 18th through the 28th of November. Like that, that lasts like 10 days ish of the month is probably your hottest, heaviest action.

Um, I've actually shot a lot of deer before that. Um, but it, you're trying to pattern them at that point and it's, it's just different hunting. They're not going to see near the action. Um, but that, that last part of the month is definitely your best time.

Okay. And, and keep in mind, um, we are in, you know, Northern Washington and is the, you go further South, that rut gets a little bit later. So keep that in mind. We're talking specifically about, you know, Northern Washington, you know, as you, as you move South throughout the country, um, you know, the rut's going to become later, you move North, the rut's going to be a little bit earlier. So, um, I know we're going to Kansas this year for my first whitetail hunt, and we're trying to hit that like November 10th to 20th.

which, you know, I would, I would think would be maybe a tad early, but it's kind of like trying to, you know, trying to hit just enough of that pre-rut right to when they're going to be kind of in the, in the peak and, and, and do that. So that's when we had elected to put our 10 days was November 10th to the 20th should be a good time that kind of guarantees you're, you're in that pre to prime rut. Yeah. The one thing I'll say with you picking those dates and, and honestly, I usually start hunting around that timeframe myself. Um,

is you'll catch some of those big deer out cruising looking for their first doe before they get on their lockdown. When you start getting into that 18th on, you'll risk one of your big bucks. He'll get on a doe and then they'll just lock themselves down. And it might be two, three days and he'll vanish like completely off your camera, out of the area. He'll be gone. So I would say,

If I had to pick, if you want to truly hunt like one big deer, I would be looking at those earlier dates when you're going. I think that'll be prime time. Yep. Yep. You know, relating back to elk, you know, it's always fun to be out there during the peak rut, you know, listen to bugling. But I've always said, if you want to kill those bigger bulls, sometimes it's easier to do, you know, just on the front side of that peak rut when they are on lockdown and they're in full control of that herd. So it sounds like it's very relatable to a whitetail deer hunting.

A hundred percent. You're spot on. I always joked around that I was going to hunt whitetails when I turned 70 and couldn't walk around and chase mule deer anymore, but I'm pretty excited. Change it up, do something new. And I think there are, you know, hunting's hunting that, you know, it's just a culmination of putting together lots of information and strategies and where you're seeing deer and what you're seeing them doing and trying to come up with the best plan and, you know, think of when. So I'm excited to see, you know, how this whitetail thing comes together.

Yeah, 100%. I'm excited for you to go sit in a tree and freeze, and then you can tell me all about it. Oh, it'll be fun. So once again, if you've got your own questions for us here at Cutting the Distance, please submit your questions to ctd at phelpsgamecalls.com. Thank you.

Now I'm going to dive into my questions for you, John, on whitetail hunting. But first I want to do a little recap on your elk season, if you're willing to talk about it. We stay in touch. We text. I think I was in Oregon while you were in Montana there. You and your wife had a very successful hunt. And I just wanted to give you give us a quick five five minute recap on how all that went down, if if you can.

Yeah, for sure. Um, yeah, it was, it was fun just kind of texting back and forth and seeing what we each had going on. Um, you know, obviously it's your buddies and you want to see them be successful. So, um, but yeah, it was, we spent a lot of time this year, uh,

We'd never set foot in this place and scouted it all summer, packed in water, did everything right. And just put in a ton of work. I mean, I was on Google earth and onyx, like literally every single night making plans, a through Z and then some, um, and it paid off. Um, I mean, we got in, I was on bowls pretty much every single day there. I don't think there was a day I never had a bowl come by within bow range. And, um,

we had found a bull that i found during the summer and i lost him after he shed and then ended up picking him back up at about day six or seven of the hunt and he had like 30 cows and we watched him

Couldn't make a play. Had them the next day at like 800 yards all day. And just the wind was messed up. And then all those cows, there's too many eyes. And the weird thing is he didn't have any satellite bulls running around. And so they had all kind of vanished. And then they moved off that night. And then I knew where they headed. They went north. And so we went the next day, didn't see him, couldn't turn him up.

Literally, we backed out and we were like, let's go back to camp for the day and just regroup for a second and just relax. Then we'll go out in the evening and try a whole new area.

And, uh, ended up turning him up like five miles away North. And he was out in this big sage flat, like all on his own. And, um, there was like a hundred cows. He lost all 30 cows. And then there was like a hundred cows with about four bulls, about two and a half miles away. And, uh, Kylie ended up spotting her bull, um, at about a mile away ish. And it had four cows and a calf, uh,

And we watched him and, you know, it was kind of one of those things that wind was perfect. And here they came feeding across this big sage flat headed towards us and

you know it's kind of one of those things at first it was like ah i don't know if we're even gonna get a play on them like we were on a scouting mission honestly like sitting back with spotting scopes and whatnot just like looking at these elk and um pretty quick more elk started popping up all over the place and here came her bull with these four cows and a calf and i'm you know how you do you're just like well they're feeding towards us and this could be really good for us because the wind's good except

We're not in a good spot. We're in the wide open. And I don't know. I mean, you know, it was like just instinct kind of took over. And I was at Kylie. I was like, we got to run like as fast as we can, like around 400 yards around the backside of this hill and like pop out. I was like, they're going to come through this saddle to our left and we got to get the wind right.

And I was like, I don't even know if they're going to come by, but I was like, they're going to come by somewhere in there. So I was like, we might get a shot. We might not. And then my bull spots her bull and her elk's like four or like 800 yards away at that point. And my bull is like a mile off and he sees them and starts just ripping bugles. And it was, I was like, oh boy, here we go. I was like, he's going to come take those cows. Not sure where his 30 cows went.

So we, uh, got in position, ran around like 400 yards, got behind this, the only rock and bush that was in the area. And I started ripping off like three, like loudest cow calls I could. And they all heard it. And then here they came and they started across. And then I peek over the top in like 50 yards. One of the cows pops up and I'm like, crap, knock an arrow. Like we're like, they're right here on our lap. And, uh,

We did. And then her bull ended up pushing one of the cows like right by us and literally ran, jumped over the rock that we're behind. We had like feet, like four or five feet in the air above us. And it was the craziest thing I've ever seen. They run by us. He's chasing this cow. She stops like 40 yards behind us. He runs back. And in the meantime, I look back in front of me and I look up and there's a cow standing there like three feet from the end of my arrow.

And I was like, oh boy, we're done. And he runs back up, stops at seven yards. And it spooked the cow in front of me, thank God, because otherwise I would have been stuck. And he puts his head down, grabs a piece of grass, lifts his head. She just drew her bow back and he just stood there looking at her, shot him. And then he turns, runs down back where they came from, takes the cows and the calf with him.

And it was one of those things, the big bulls like bugling the whole time coming in. But I totally spaced because I was more focused on her, you know, shooting that bull, her first bull with a bow. And I jumped up, we hugged and we held and I was like watching blood just pouring out of her bull.

And I look at like a hundred yards in the big bowl standing there and his head's just swiveling all over the place. And I was like, Oh no. And I was like, we just blew this. So I did like three quick cow calls just to calm everything down. And he lost his mind and just ran, started bugling and ran right into 13 yards and came out on the other side of the bush. And I shot him and he just ran down and both the elk fell over at the same time. Like literally mine fell over and hers fell over at the same time. And dude, it was pretty, it was pretty wild, but,

just seeing her get her first one with a bow and we had put in so much work. I mean, we had bowls all over the place and I actually let on my first morning, um, I let like a three 30, 40 bowl walk at 28 yards. And I was like, man, did I do the right thing? You know, just that's a big bowl that a lot of people want to kill. And, uh,

Well, it turns out I did. And at least I got this poll that I'd watched all summer and we just made the right game plan and we got him. So yeah, it was fun. Yeah, that's pretty cool to double and see it all come together like that. So no, congrats on your guys' elk season. Now we're going to dive into

to the whitetail hunting. Um, and some of the questions that I have. So when you set up an area, you know, we, we talked earlier from one of the listener questions, like, you know, how do you set up an area? And then the next thing you're going to obviously have to do is go scout it. Um, you're not going to want to jump or invest a bunch of time into an area that, that maybe doesn't, you know,

have deer in it or won't have deer in it so when do you start scouting how do you scout and and kind of how do you put that together you know because a lot of these deer in the in the thick timber you can't necessarily glass them up um you know so i'm assuming you're going you know trail cameras um are you putting them on the ridges kind of let us know how you scout and when you start scouting so at least those deer are going to be in the area um you know when you start hunting

Yeah, for sure. So I have a lot of the areas that we've we hunt now. And it was obviously easier when I lived in Washington to scout it than it is now. But if it was a brand new area that we'd never been to, we would go over during the summer and just like litter the place with trail cameras, like just trying to find these trails and then find these benches and whatnot. And you'll find what are called like a community scrape.

And they'll actually hit this scrape all year round and just kind of mark it. And it'll be bigger than like a normal scrape that will happen during the rut. It'll be something, you know, three, four feet across, sometimes bigger. And if you hike around, you'll find these. And so we would start setting up trail cameras on these and these deer will hit these things, you know, kind of all season, especially during the rut and stuff, too.

And, uh, then other, other ruts or, uh, other scrapes will show up. Um, but then we obviously are looking for rubs and, you know, that type of thing and trying to see, you know, is there, you know, scrape lines, rub lines, like stuff that, you know, these deer will make. And if you go early in the spring before it greens up, um, you know, that stuff stands out like, you know, sore thumbs. So,

that's what we would do when we first started, um, you know, really scouting new areas. And then after we learned, you know, kind of where the deer were, um, you know, obviously there's a lot of area where there is no deer. And so, um, you know, it's kind of trial and error, run the cameras, see what's on them, find these spots. And then once we did, then, you know, it's easy to go back and then kind of expand on those core areas and like dive down in a little bit and get a

and then really start tearing it apart but yeah you're right so a lot of these big bucks whitetail in general they don't they don't travel uh you know out in clear cuts much and especially where we hunt like there just isn't any like it's all big thick timber and so if you don't run cameras i mean you're you're shooting yourself in the foot like you'll never find these deer

And what's wild is like they have a, you know, general rifle season, muzzleloader season, everything else that goes along before we even get a chance to hunt. And if those animals, if people did their research and knew like what was truly running around, man, they'd probably do a lot better with a rifle. But, um,

We we've had a lot of years where, you know, these bucks, we have them year after year after year. And I'm just shocked that they make it through rifle season, but it's like these people just, they don't hunt the way that we do. They don't know those deer even around. And, you know, during October, I mean, those big deer are just so nocturnal that, I mean, you're never going to shoot one and you can't sneak up on them unless you're in a tree stand. So yeah.

Gotcha. Yeah. So, so I know, you know, we get to follow along, you know, as you share your pictures and stuff. Um, so you're scouting, let's say you got your trail cameras up and, you know, big bucks are in the area. It sounds like you're hunting, you know, mid to late November. If those deer are there in November, like they're going to be there, uh,

come the rut like there are you saying they're going to be in that same area year round or do they move into certain areas you know prior to that rut and then once they're there you know say late October early November you're just banking on them eventually coming back by or you know being in that area

Yeah. So some of the areas that we, that we hunt, those deer literally live there year round. Like I figured out where they live and I've just like these particular draws always hold big bucks and these deer will live in there. I mean, they, they just, they do not come out of there.

Um, and so I do have a few areas that I set up, uh, stands in cameras and whatnot on that. The deer will move in when the rut starts. And it's just kind of one of those things like, you know, elk, for example, like over the years.

You'll figure out and they just rut in a certain area. And I do have a few spots that I found where these deer will come down in, they rut. And that is the only time you're ever going to see like that particular buck versus, you know, I mean, he could live five miles away over the backside of a mountain range, like, and, you know, show up. I have had deer literally,

eight, nine miles away and they'll come over to mountain ranges, drainages, like a long ways and show up on a camera all of a sudden, you know, during the rut, like they'll start cruising. Um, but you can kind of find their core home, like their core area. If they're there during the summer where I'm hunting, at least these deer will be there like all season and, you know, give or take, they might move, you know, a half mile, a mile, but

a lot of the big ones, they literally will live within like a one mile square area, like all year and won't move. Gotcha. So that's a great, great point on, you know, scouting and figuring out. So the next, uh,

The next decision I'm assuming that has to be made once you do your scouting is where are you going to set up your tree stand or where are you going to set up your ground blind and some of those things that will now affect it. So we've established that we've got a target buck or some target bucks in your area. You're looking at where you're going to set your stand up. Are you setting your stand up right at your camera? Are you looking at travel corridors within that area or where you think maybe the does are going to travel more so than that buck? Yeah.

And then the other thing I'm assuming is wind. Um, we've got our prevailing wind, which is, you know, and then you've got your thermals and then you've got, you know, that time of year, you've got storm systems and stuff coming in. Like, give us a little bit on how you're going to establish where you're setting your stand. And then is it based on, you know, how it, how it relates to travel corridors and, and

the wind direction? Yeah. So we, what we do generally, uh, you know, we're hunting them in the mountains. So it's a lot different than farm fields where you'll get that prevailing wind generally. And you'll know when a storm system comes in, what the wind's going to do. Um, kind of ironically, we, we look at like elk hunting, uh, the way that we hunt and set our stands for white tails. Um,

The wind is usually pulling down in the morning pretty hard down these draws. And so we'll try to come in from the bottom and get our stuff set up.

where we can access it with the wind in our face. Generally the deer will be above us, um, kind of know where they're hanging out. Obviously we'll bump some when we're coming in at some times, but it's just part of part of it. Um, but generally we try to come in from the bottom and get the wind right. And also when we're leaving in the evening, that way we go out and the wind is obviously it's pulling down, but the deer are above us. So we're walking out with the wind, you know, in our favor going out. Um, it's at our back, but we're not bumping deer. Um,

So that's kind of what we look at when we're trying to access an area. Obviously, I have like six, eight different stands set up in different areas. Some places I might have two at the same spot so I can come in a different way. If a storm rolls in or something and it changes the thermals or it gets kind of weird throughout the day, I might get down and move over to another spot. So that's kind of the kicker.

But then what I'm looking for in this, you know, is it's kind of ironic in a way, like the does will come in and walk a certain trail. And you'd think that like all the deer are going to walk that same trail. But I've found the littler bucks, like you're one and a half to like three and a half, maybe even four and a half year old deer. They'll kind of follow the same trails as the does. But if you start getting in that four and a half, five and a half plus age deer, you

he will literally try to get the wind right. And he'll come in and walk his own trail, like 20 yards below, like the main trail that like the, all the other deer take. And just so he can smell them as he's walking along. And it's, it's weird. Like I've watched enough big bucks over the years and they never come in where you think they're going to, they always are low or high, like wherever the wind is, uh, you know, during the day, obviously they'll go be above it because of thermals, but

I'll try to figure out where he's coming from and where I think I'm going to have my best opportunity for a shooting lane. And I'll put my stand back where I can access it. But,

but where he's more likely to come out of like a thick patch of brush or something. Um, and you know, where he's going to end up walking on his own trail. Um, and I, and what I'll do, I'll literally like go look at big buck tracks and I'll backtrack them and try to figure out like where that buck is bedding. Obviously I try to do it preseason. So if I bump him, you know, he'll hopefully be back in there before like the time of year when I'm going to hunt him. Um, but yeah,

I've learned so much after I've actually like harvest, you know, harvest shot a deer or whatever. I've, I've like learned so much those next few days after, and I'll like go back to my other stands and backtrack the big deer and figure out where they were coming from. And that just takes years of, of learning. But once you figure that out, you know, it's like, then I'll be able to move in there the next year and, and,

you know, set my stand up and boom, like you'll, that's where you, you'll know where you want to put it. So it's kind of a combination of certain things, but look at, you know, whatever way the wind's going generally, if you know, if you're in the timber and it's pulling down or whatnot, uh,

And that time of year, it's so cold out that the wind seems to be pulling downhill a lot. And the deer will, he'll be below that trail like 20 yards every time. So it's like, I'll set up off that trail a little bit, you know, 20 yards below it or so. And then if he comes on that trail at 20, I'm shooting there. If he hits the main trail, I'm shooting 40. And, you know, that's, it is what it is.

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Now we're going to move on to maybe one of the most contentious topics when it comes to whitetail deer hunting. And you've got people on both ends of the spectrum. But I'm just looking for your own opinion on scent. The thermals aren't always going to work the way you want. The wind isn't always going to do what you want. So what's your opinion on scent and how much precaution do you take when dealing with that? So are we talking like scent control or are we talking like deer scents?

I would say like scent control. What, how, how important is it? You know, we'll talk about attractants and stuff here in a little bit, but just your own scent and making sure that, you know, you're not spooking deer out of the area. Yeah, for sure. So that we kind of have mixed opinions on that. And I've, you know, heard so many different opinions, but, um,

I'm the type of guy, I use a lot of dead down wind and those scent killers and whatnot. I try to shower every night and use everything I can. I'll spray my clothes down, my boots down every single night. The thing is, I've found we've adopted the ground blind game here over the last few years, five, six years actually, since my sister started hunt with us. And

It's weird being on the ground in a blind. You can get away with so much more than you can when you're sitting in a stand. I love sitting in a stand because I have way more shooting opportunity. When you're in the ground blind, you've only got like one little window or two to shoot out of. So the deer has to cross where you're shooting.

Um, but I, man, I feel like we've got away with like murder sitting in that, in that stand or in the ground blind. Um, you know, and so my dad, you know, and sister there, they'll spray down every now and then, and, you know, a couple of days type thing and whatnot, um,

I do it every single night. I don't know if it truly makes a difference. If it doesn't, all I know is, is that I've had days where I get winded and, you know, it's like, I don't know if it's because, you know, the winds are horrible or,

And just swirling too much. Those seem to be the days when I get winded. But I feel my thing is whether this stuff works or not. I mean, it's on the market. There's so much of it and something has to work. And I feel like in my opinion, like it has to be better than not doing anything. So I'm like, if it just gives me that extra second to fool that deer, like not be smelled and I get the shot and

I'm all for it. The other kicker is like my stands. I set my tree stands like 23 to 26 feet usually. And I found it about 20 to 22 feet. The thermals change like the wind, the wind will actually change. I used to set them all around that 20 foot mark and I would get winded. Once I went higher, then I stopped getting winded as much. And so, um,

And seeing, so I don't, I mean, you know, it's like, there's definitely a gap right there in that 22 foot range, 20 foot where the wind will change and you can get away with so much more. I still use my scent control. I haven't ever stopped since day one. Um, I think, you know, it's kind of one of those things, like maybe a superstitious thing. I'm like, man, if I do this, like it's going to bring me good luck. Um, but yeah,

I feel like it works and that I guess it's kind of in my, my own head. So I'll keep doing it. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. It's what people are comfortable with and what they feel work. So, um, no, in Washington, I know the rules have changed over the last few years. Um, but we're allowed to use, you know, baits in small, small quantity. And then also you were mentioned like deer attractants or scents, um,

What's your opinion on baits and attractants, how you use them, and then the advantages and disadvantages of baits and attractants?

Yeah. So, I mean, dude, we, we've done everything and like, you know, we have stands, I mean, we set up every year and we'll put bait out and whatnot, cause we're allowed to bait in Washington and it kind of varies, you know, where we're at and, you know, what we put out and what we do. I have other stands where I literally just hunt scrapes and, you know, rub lines and that type of thing, but generally big scrapes and I'll put out, you know, um, like buck fever synthetics, like they have their, their scrape, uh,

I forgot exactly the name of it. I have to dig it out, but it's, uh, they have a like rut scent and then they have a mock scrape scent and I'll, I'll build my own scrapes or if I have scrapes that I've found over the years and I'll, I'll dump some of that in it. And I love hunting that way because I feel like the, the true big bucks are,

I'll be honest. Like, I mean, yes, we've killed a few over bait, but like the true big ones don't come to the bait. Like they will stay outside of it and they'll stop at 30, 40 yards and like, look over there. And if there's not a doe there, they they're spooky, man. Like it's, it's not the same. If you're hunting a scrape,

He's a lot more like he's still super cautious and they're so spooky compared to like a mule deer or an elk, but they'll come in and it's like almost like their guards down a little bit because they're like, Oh, Hey, another deer is peed here and made his own scrape, rub these limbs done, whatever. And I'm just leaving my scent. And so he's definitely less cautious. And so it's like, if they come in and they're coming into bait, uh,

man, it's like they're on edge and it is hard to shoot them. Like they, I mean, it's like,

you better not be making a noise or, or have your clothes make a noise or anything. I've had bucks come in and literally like lose their mind, spook just at me trying to draw my bow back. And I barely even moved. And so, um, it, it's hard, but does the bait bring in deer? Yes. Like, I mean, if you know, guys over there, they'll throw out alfalfa. Some people throw out corn, that type of thing. Um, I,

the thing that i will caution like if you ever use corn or something depending where you're hunting bears will find it in the early part of november and you're gonna scare every deer out of the country because a bear will come in and live on it and eat it um so you kind of got to be careful with that the alfalfa is probably the better way to go um but obviously you can't put that much out in washington i think it's two five gallon buckets still and um which is not much and uh

And the does, if you can get the does hanging around eating that, like obviously a big buck's going to come in. But I could count on one hand over the years between my dad's sister and I and how many we've actually got, like the big ones, like eating the bait. Like they just don't. So I tend to follow my pinch points and the scrapes. And then I'll use those primarily as my main hunting opportunity.

Yeah, I've been talking to Randy Milligan, my buddy there in Kansas, and it's the same thing. Like those big bucks, they're not interested in eating the bait pile or the feeder or anything like that. And so a lot of his, you know, those bucks are coming in checking for does, but then they're going to stay, you know, 100 yards off downwind of that. And they're just really checking on does. They have no desire to go eat.

you know, out of any sort of bait or, you know, artificial food source or anything like that. So it sounds like it's real similar even in farm country compared to, you know, high mountain whitetails. Those big bucks are just at a different level and they're not interested in exposing themselves, you know, in the wide open or going to a spot like that. 100%.

All right. So we touched on this, this question a little bit that I had for you is kind of when to hunt whitetails. We kind of picked, you know, November 18th to 28th, but are there elements or, or things that affect it? Like, are there, is there a weather pattern or, uh, you know, a type of weather that just gets you super stoked to get up in the stand? Um, you know, like, like what's your favorite time to hunt whitetail, like two inch dusting of snow, you know, 12 inches of new snow, like

what's that ultimate, um, you know, day you just need to be in the stand. Yeah. So my, my favorite, absolute favorite day is to be sitting there the day before, like, and if I know a storm system is coming of any sort, so it's like, could be, you know, like tomorrow it's going to just pour down rain or a snow storm is coming in. Um, man, the night before can be really good because those animals know a storm's coming. So they'll get up and start moving.

But then the data storm hits and my like personal favorite is to be sitting in a stand midday and

excuse me, is midday and we'll have that storm roll in. If a storm rolls in at any point, like during that day and all of a sudden it gets, you know, it could be blowing, it could be nasty, start snowing. The big one is if it starts snowing and I, man, I've had so many days where I'm sitting there and it's just a cool, calm day, you know, and then all of a sudden it'll, the weather starts changing and snowflakes start falling out of the sky and

those big bucks get on their feet and they like every time i mean i would say most of the big ones i've killed has been in that weather condition like the weather changes and boom here they come now that being said if there's no storm coming in but it's going to get cold or there's snow on the ground my my next kind of favorite time would be like six to eight ten and twelve inches of snow

And as cold as it can get, like just clear skies, but let the weather, the temperatures drop, hopefully. I mean, we've been sitting over there some years and it's negative two degrees and we sit there for 10 hours a day. Don't get out. But the deer move all day.

Like they will be roaming around. They're coming in because it's cold. They are checking those. They're looking for those. And you will have so much activity, the colder it gets. And so that's probably my second favorite time. But the storm rolling in is like the ultimate. I mean, if you get a day like that, you're going to kill a big one.

Gotcha. Yeah, that, that's, uh, that's kind of what I was thinking, you know, similar to other hunting, you know, pre pre system, you know, during the system. And then, you know, what I, what I don't like on at least what I've hunted is like the same weather for, you know, 10 days in a row. Like you want some, you know, you want weather patterns that are changing in order to get the deer moving, uh,

So no, that makes a ton of sense. So now we're going to get into more of what I would consider, you know, what I would think is the funnest part is calling to the deer, you know, audibly, you know, attracting a deer to your location. And, um, I'm gonna take a little bit to kind of just announce that, that new deer call line. We've got, we've got, um,

a full category. We've got three different grunt calls coming out. Um, we've got a bleat, uh, adjustable bleat. And then we've also got a phone and distress call for, you know, calling in some of those mealies that are on lockdown and some of the other stuff we do. So we've got a,

an alpha grunner, which is the deepest sounding, um, grunt we've got. We've got a beta, which is more of a, um, full acrylic. Uh, I would call it like a duck style, um, deer call. And then we've got a Omega, which is a hybrid acrylic plastic call. Um, that's fully adjustable. We've got a DOA bleed, um,

and then ended up falling to stress. So we're excited to release those finally on October 10th. But let's jump into your kind of your white-tailed deer calling strategy, kind of the calls you use, your approach, you know, whether you're randomly blowing on a call every, you know, 15 minutes, or if you do it at certain times, and then how you go about, you know, bringing those deer to your location through calls.

Yeah, for sure. So one thing, if it's earlier in the season, you know, that kind of early to mid-November timeframe, we do a lot of rattling and grunting, you know, and like kind of tending grunts, you know, type thing or, you know, something to kind of like, hey, you know, maybe this buck's tending a doe already and try to pique their interest. And so, yeah,

that the rattling works really good early. It's like the bucks are, you know, they're fighting, they're trying to establish their dominance. And we've, we've had some really good luck rattling in some big deer, um, you know, that, that come in that time of year. And obviously a ton of small deer too, that come in and they're just trying to figure out where the party's at. Um, and so that works really good then. Um, but then as kind of things progress into the rut a little farther, little heavier, hotter, um,

What we tend to do is we'll still do maybe a rattle here and there, like let them know like, hey, maybe there's some bucks fighting over here. Like one of these does, you know, is in estrous, like she's hot and try to pique their interest still. But we'll

What I like to do is the early morning, like first thing, right when I get in the stand, right at daylight, is maybe do like a couple just, you know, buck grunts, you know, like, hey, you know, I'm over here or tending grunt type style and let them know. And then the other thing I'll do is like kind of that doe in estrus, you know, bleat type thing and just let them know like, hey, maybe there's, you know, a doe over here. And so I'll do like a doe bleat.

And then I'll do like two, three, four grunts right after that and let them know that, you know, hey, you know, something's going on over here and see if obviously there's got to be a deer close enough to hear it. And that's a tough part about where we hunt in the mountains. It's it's those deer live in those jaws, but it deadens the sound so much where like a farm field, it'll kind of carry farther.

So the deer has to be somewhat close, but we'll go in, do those bleats and then I'll shut up for a while. And then I might do like one or two sessions, like 15 minutes apart right in the morning. And then I might not do anything until like 10, 11 o'clock, like midday.

And what we found, honestly, like a lot of the big bucks in the morning, even sometimes they'll be laying down at daylight already because they've run it all night. And then 10 to two midday is when we've seen most of our big deer over the years. And those big bucks get curious. They're up. They've rested up in the morning and they're like, hey, I'm going to start cruising again.

And, you know, 10 to 2. We always, we joke about it. People get out of their stands, they go back to their truck, eat lunch, take a nap, whatever. And, you know,

you know, we're in the woods and boom out walks the big guy. So I might do some more calling. Maybe, you know, it depends on, you know, what's going on and what phase of the rut I'm in, maybe a rattle or something, but do another doe bleeder too. And, uh, you know, some grunts or maybe it's just some grunts type of thing, like two, three grunts or like act like they're tending a doe, that type of thing. And man, I've had some really good luck, uh,

midday and doing that. And I've literally had bucks like run in and it's, they'll all of a sudden they'll come in and,

They're looking, trying to figure out where the noise came from. And then of course, you know, it's too late usually. And where I set my stands and I guess this kind of goes back to the stand location thing. I try to set my stand in a spot where I can get a shot, but a spot that it's super thick for the deer. So he'll run in and feel like he's hid and you can get, you're looking down on him so you can see him and get away with a lot. And he'll stand there looking around, uh, like maybe out into an opening, trying to see that doe, but you're on the edge of the thick cover, uh,

and then make your move. Perfect. Now I have to ask a question on when you're grunting, are you trying to be a dominant buck or are you trying to be, you know, like a sound like a slightly younger buck? Like what's your strategy there? Do you want to let that big buck know that maybe a smaller bucks run in those or in the area? Can you give us a little input on, on what type of buck you're trying to sound like? Yeah, for sure. So, and this kind of,

It's two sided, I guess. It depends if it's earlier in the season and I'm rattling and whatnot. I try to sound like a big buck and I just, you know, it's like, hey, come get me. You know, like I'm trying to establish my dominance and let's let's duke it out as it goes on. And, you know, I've done both.

And I've had results with both. But then at other times, I'm like, man, did I scare the deer off? I'm not sure. Maybe they went into a lockdown phase and disappeared. And here I'm thinking I scared him off, but he's really not. He's just on lockdown. But I tend to do...

a little bit, try to sound like a little bit of a younger buck that's on a doe. Um, that way, you know, it's like, he thinks that, Oh, Hey, here's this younger, like buck that's over here running my does. I'm going to go over there and I'm going to kill him type of thing. And you know, we're going to, I'm taking that doe back. And so I've always tried to play that strategy a little bit is like, don't sound like the biggest, most dominant buck in the area. The thing that, that

that I run into, I'm, I'm not fortunate enough to hunt these big, you know, farm fields and these big, you know, ranches and stuff back in the Midwest where there's literally hundreds of deer on these ranches. We're hunting deer that there's like, you know, maybe two, three bucks. And, you know, it's like one big buck and two, three, like smaller, you know, immature bucks. And then like two or three does. And like, that's it in my whole, like one of my stands, like that'll be it.

So, I don't want to go in there sounding like another big dominant buck usually because there might only be one big dominant buck there and he knows. He'll be like, nope, these other deer that are here, there's two or three little guys and I know who you are. And a big one rolls in and then I just...

I don't know. I feel like sometimes like they get spooked by that because they're aware that there's not tons of deer in the area. Now, if I had an area where there was 10 big bucks, like sure, maybe. So that I always try to play that younger buck and like, you know, let him know that, hey, you know, one of the little guys in here running them.

That makes a ton of sense and, you know, a little bit relatable to elk, even though the one downside with elk is you just can't, you know, keep up with the volume. So we always try to sound as absolutely big as we can and still end up falling short of a real elk. But that makes a ton of sense on, you know, especially in an area where the deer kind of have their pecking order figured out. They kind of know what's there and what's around. Like unless, you know, an outside buck just showed up in the area, he's probably starting to question like, hey, I...

I haven't heard you before. I know you're not in the area. Um, so, so it makes a ton of sense. I really appreciate having you on here, John. Um, you know, sharing, sharing some of your whitetail tips and tactics and to close, if you had one tip to maybe help a new whitetail hunter, somebody that wants to go try, you know, mountain whitetail hunting, um, what would that tip be?

Oh man, one tip. I would say my single biggest tip that I could give someone is days in the stand. Like just spend the time out there. Find, like literally look around

Find those travel corridors, find scrapes and just get in the stand and sit. It's like it's a waiting game. And I've had too many guys go over and they spend two days. I didn't see a deer. And there's days that I go by and I never see a deer. But you just got to keep sitting there. Don't get out of your stand. Sit all 10 hours, daylight till dark.

And just put in the time, like something will happen. That's a great tip. Um, you know, time is always the number one, you know, no matter what type of hunting, you know, just putting time in the field, you know, something, um,

something's going to happen, whether it's good or bad, but, you know, putting yourself out there, you know, punching that time clock as much as possible is always, you know, one of the best tips. So really appreciate having you on here, John, congrats to you and Kylie on your guys' elk season and good luck and everything, you know, moving forward. And I think it sounds like we may join up and do my Washington elk hunt here in the next couple of weeks together. So looking forward to spending some time with you and appreciate you. Yeah.

being on here. Absolutely. I appreciate you having me on. I can't wait to see you put your tag on a giant bowl. I hope so. Thanks a lot, John. Take care. Thanks, man.

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