Ep. 30: Colorado Elk and Calling Tactics with Jermaine Hodge
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What's up, everybody? This is Dirk Durham here. I'm filling in as a guest host for Jason Phelps.

On this episode of Cutting the Distance podcast, we've got world champion, Colorado native, elk hunter, elk caller, Jermaine Hodge. A longtime friend, just a good dude and funny man. I wanted to have him on here and talk about something that's on people's minds all the time, Colorado elk hunting. Yeah, thanks Dirk for having me on. Jermaine, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Yeah, a little bit about myself. I'm originally from North Carolina, and I didn't move out to Colorado until 2005. Kind of going back, I came in the Army in 2004, and then I got...

uh, the chance to, uh, make the world-class athlete program for the army. And, um, once I did, and I made the team, I got stationed out here in Colorado because once again, you know, Olympic training centers here, and most of all the athletes train here for particular sports anyways, wrestling being one of them. And then when I came out in 2005, um, some of my team members were big hunters and, and they kind of introduced me to elk, um,

And I missed that first row and then...

I started hunting elk in 2006, but my journey wasn't, it wasn't as good as you think it is. I mean, you know, you go, you go through that first season and it's always a struggle, but I was fortunate enough to kill my first elk in 2006. And I've just been, I've been on a roll ever since, but self-taught how to call myself and watched a bunch of videos. And here we are, I'm on the phone right now with Derham, the bugler. So, yeah,

I've been fortunate enough to be successful, and now I'm teaching what I've learned from all the years of getting elk and having encounters year in and year out. So that's just a little bit about myself. I'll go into a long story, but it'll be a deep one.

I won't derail us too much here, but I did want to touch on like, okay, you mentioned your job a little bit. What's your job and what took you there? You said wrestling. How's wrestling incorporated to the Army? Yes. So, you know, back way before my time, they found the value of awarding

soldiers the opportunity to make world and Olympic teams. And then they found the value of kind of utilizing those soldier athletes for more of a recruiting aspect. So now that we have soldier athletes in the Army, we can utilize them on the Army side to bring in more elite soldiers and also award them the opportunity to make an Olympic team and bring home an Olympic medal. So

Back in 2004, I got stationed in Korea and I thought it was going to be like the end of my wrestling career, but it was like kind of like a blessing in disguise. And while I was over there, I wrestled in two different tournaments and athletic director was like, you know, who are you? And I kind of explained to him, you know, my background and what I used to do. And he said,

Well, if you put your papers together, I'll send it up to you. That's when they used to fax everything back in the day. Now it's all computer generated. But once he did that, I got to try out for the for the world class athlete program. But that's a sister program called All Army. And so I came through the All Army route.

I came here to Fort Carson and my whole goals was to make this team and wrestle for this program. So anyways, yeah.

I made the team. Now I wrestle for the world-class athlete program. But my primary job for the military, because you still have to have like a MOS or you have to be MOS qualified. So my job job for the Army is a 68 whiskey combat medic. I'm EMT certified, but I've never really done that job outside of military.

uh, outside of here, um, with the exception of like one year of like some OJT at the, at the ER working in the ER doing that, that kind of stuff. But, um, no, you know, they brought me into the program to wrestle and bring home medals and international medals and world medals. And, and, uh, I was fortunate enough to, to compete on the world stage a few times. And, and, uh,

bring home medals and stay in the program. And now I'm coaching. I'm at the latter part of my season, you know, my career, and I'm finishing up as a coach. And now I got to continue to live their dreams through me and help those guys achieve their goals because their goals are my goals now too as well.

Man, that's awesome. That's awesome. So what a blessing, you know, that you were taken to Colorado and discovered elk hunting. And I've said it before, like elk hunting will change your life, right? And I'm sure you've seen some big, big swings there. Like it's such a cool opportunity to be able to hunt elk every fall, go to the mountains. You know, everybody has a little different agenda why they hunt.

But it seems like it's a really good place to decompress, reset, and enjoy, get in touch with our primal selves. Absolutely. So Colorado, you know, that's a real elk hunting mecca for a lot of folks, you know, whether it's residents, you know, that have been there their whole lives or new people moving there, or for non-residents, non-resident hunters, that's a super –

destination because Colorado has so many elk and they have so much over the counter opportunity. A lot of people go there. But I think that kind of creates some challenges, right? Lots of, lots of tags, lots of people. How, how do you get away and make yourself a little different from all the other hunters out there? It seems like a competitive place. You know, I've, I've been to Colorado. There's a lot of people hunting.

And it's tough, you know, what do you do? What do you go into the woods within your mind that your plan, your game plan is to make sure you stay in elk consistently and you're not getting picked on by other hunters or, you know, having other hunters disrupt your hunt or vice versa? Yeah.

Well, you know, let's flashback a little bit. Now I'll talk about like the non-resident opportunities in Colorado is like, it's like no other. And I, you have to kind of contribute it to the OTC portion of it. So as a non-resident, you can come over, you can plan a hunt. You can kind of pick whatever unit you wanted to go to non-residentially.

Not even apply for anything, drive out to Colorado, go to Walmart, pick up your tag. And that's a huge opportunity for non-residents. So if your dream is to come out and hunt out West and chase elk, you probably have a really good chance of doing that in Colorado by all means. But I will say this.

since I've been hunting elk and I've been hunting elk since 2006 to present, I've seen the numbers climb dramatically, whether it was OTC or whether it was draw units.

And for me, I kind of keep the same game plan when I go into whatever unit I plan on hunting that year. I kind of keep the same game plan and the mindset of you're going to hunt the way you hunt and not the way other people are hunting. So for me, I really don't have a problem getting away from people. Now, you'll find a few that...

that can go in and hike in and get into those deep dark pockets or those areas where they may have e-scouted and they may be willing to walk in there. But that's very few that might be able to do that. What I do find myself doing is gravitating away from those easy to park and walk in spots.

And I think that is my quick answer to how do I get away from them. So I'm not going to park at trailheads and then walk in. I want to find I'm coming right off the road. Maybe I drove down this dirt road and at the very end of that dirt road is a trailhead. Instead of coming in at that trailhead, I might find myself driving.

driving down that road and then I have to bomb up this hill to get into a different area than where they may be. So I think the aspect of going places where no one really wants to go or not many want to go and then the fact that, hey, it looks like it might be elk over this way, parking there and then trying those different areas. I find myself that I don't run into a lot of hunters

into places that I've been. But I've also hunted into some OTC units where it's tough. You have thousands of hunters into these particular areas. What I try to do is stay away from those trailheads,

and find those areas where if they were at that trailhead, where would they push these elk to? So a good example is, you know, a good trailhead goes into a good basin. If you know you got four or five or six hunters that are in that basin, maybe looking over two more basins to the left or right and trying those areas instead of hunting that one basin that those six or seven hunters are in. Yeah, I love that.

I love that. You know, taking the proverbial road less traveled, you know, get off, get off trail, bushwhack,

out through the brush trees, you know, go hike through the more difficult places. If it's a hard for a person to get there, that'll probably weed out a lot of your, a lot of your other fellow hunters. Um, there may be, you know, they're not in good enough shape or maybe they're not confident on their navigation abilities to go to those kinds of places. So that's, uh, that's some good insight there. Um,

Now with that mind, so these elk, you know, some of them can probably be pushed into those spots, those little pockets, those off the, you know, out of mind, out of sight, out of mind type pockets. But they've been messed with a little bit a lot of times. How are you calling? How are you going to, is your calling effective to those elk that have been pressured a little bit? Are you doing something a little different than maybe, you know, what's your secret here, your secret sauce?

Yeah, so, you know, I can, well, let's start with like an OTC unit for Colorado. I go through phases throughout the season of September, and I'm fortunate enough to be able to take all of September off so I can really like nitpick on what these elk are really going to respond to. So for me, you know, in an OTC unit,

Let's say at the very beginning, you know, a non-resident is probably not all of them are going to come out here for 30 days. They're probably going to come out here for about 10 days.

maybe 10 to 12 days. I don't know, but most, most of all the ones that I've known and I've run into, they do about a 10 day hunt and not a lot of choose to pick the very beginning of season. They want to come when it's prime rut activity. So they usually picking that mid to end September. And so at the very beginning of September, I like to try to

to stick with my guns no matter what unit i'm in um but i do find it a little different when it comes to otc units so when i'm at the very beginning of september used to be like the end of august into september but now they have it in september the very beginning of seasons in september what i like to try to do is i move into those different areas that that i think are holding elk

And I use a lot more bugles than I do cow sounds. Not that I'm not using cow sounds. I'm just more heavy on the bugle side of it. And it has more to do with the phase of the rut. Like I'm introducing a bull that's at this playground and they've never heard him before.

if that makes kind of sense. And then when we get towards like that September 10th to mid-September, I try to mix in a combination of both of the bugles and cow sounds. So I'm not so much heavy on the bugle side, I'm more in the middle of using both sides of the aspect.

And then towards the latter part of the season, towards the end of September, I'm heavy, heavy on cow sounds. And that's been effective for me anywhere I've been, whether it's OTC units or over the, I mean, draw units. Now, I will say this is when you get those OTC units and you get a lot of corners out there, 1,700 in one particular unit,

They've heard everything from Doug Flutie to some of the best callers in the woods. And they can distinguish, believe it or not, they can distinguish a good sounding elk versus a person. And after being blown at by maybe one of those power bugle tubes or something, they've been blown at hundreds of times with this tube. And they've been fooled and they've been called in. They wise up really quick, especially throughout the month of September. So

What I do find that it's more effective that in an OTC unit for myself, you know, I'm speaking just for myself. When I find it 700 to 1,000 hunters in a unit and I know everybody's in there calling, what I find best is

Move in as close as possible to that bugling bull or that herd, and I use cow sounds, quality, good cow sounds. Now, if I'm trying to kill a raghorn bull or a satellite bull, that right there is effective. And most of the time, those bulls will come in quiet. You'll hear that herd bull. He'll be chirping and going absolutely nuts.

And a lot of times when you're using those cow sounds, that bull might have some satellites with them and those satellites will come in, they'll come in quiet. I might only be 400 yards from that herd, but when I use that cow sound, it'll pull a satellite bull in. And believe it or not, there's a lot of big satellites out there. And for a non-resident that's coming from, you know, a state like Colorado, that might be a really effective way to kill a bull. But, yeah,

Going back to what I said, I really don't try to change anything, whether it's an over-the-counter unit or a draw unit. I use my calls throughout the season of September based off rut activity. So heavy on the bull sounds at the very beginning of the season. Mid-month, I go mix them both. And then towards the end of the season, I use a lot of cow sounds.

Man, I couldn't agree more with what you said. Those are some really, really good insightful tactics. And I agree like that early season. And I feel like this is something our listeners really need to kind of key into. I do a lot of seminars. You do a lot of seminars every year. And a lot of folks, you know, they're like, hey, that early season stuff, you know, should I just be blowing a cow call? I feel like there's like some information out there or maybe they just this conception that, you know,

that the idea of like only because bulls aren't hot and rutting super hard they're not going to want to answer a bugle or come to a bugle in that early part of let's say the first week of September but at that point you know they're not you know they can be breeding but a lot of times they're still work they're just on the edge of that rut and they're still working out a little bit of that pecking order and like like what you said they're like hey who's that new guy in town

You know, I've had bulls come in out of curiosity. They wouldn't they wouldn't answer a cow call early. But man, you bugle at them. They would come in and they wouldn't get super mad. They wouldn't get wound up, you know, like they do later in the month. But they would bugle steady and they would come in and there's like, hey, who is this guy? Who's this new guy over here? Hey, Jack, what? Who are you? Yeah.

And I've had that work time and time again. And so I feel like, you know, the idea of just going out and be like, oh, yeah, early season, I should, you know, that September 1st to the 5th or whatever, I should only blow cow calls. I just don't – for me, it's just never really worked that good. I actually – I get more success with bugling. So that's a great takeaway, Jermaine. Yeah, I –

I could argue this, you know, year in and year out. You'll hear, you know, new hunters, I'd say primarily new hunters, and they'd be like, you're bugling too much. No, there's no such thing. If there's a bull in there that wants to play, he will answer. And I find it very, very intriguing that when you introduce a bull early in the season to an area that that bull or those bulls have been hanging out in,

They are curious to see who the heck the new guy is. Yeah. And they will come in. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Hey, let me ask you this. So there's a lot of new hunters out there, new callers. And what's your take? Do you have to sound – how authentic do you have to sound like an elk? I mean, can you just get any kind of an elk call and go out and blow it with, you know –

just a little bit of, you know, talent or should they sound, you know, practice with their calls and try to sound as authentic and sound as much like an elk as possible? What do you think that makes a difference?

It's absolutely huge. Let's go back to like kind of where I was talking about the OTC units, the heavily hunted units. Now you can take a brand new caller that just learned how to call and put him in an OTC unit that's heavily hunted. And yes, he somewhat sounds like an elk. And he probably gets one encounter throughout his season in that OTC unit. But then you take someone that

is a seasoned elk caller and he's very good and he sounds very realistic and you put him in that OTC unit, he or she is going to have way more encounters than the person that just taught themselves how to call versus the guy that

you know, goes out there, stops at Walmart or wherever and picks up a call, sounds somewhat like an elk and goes out there. He only gets one encounter versus the guy that guy or gal that goes out and they practice year in, year out and they sound realistic. You'll find yourself feeling

You'll find yourself separating yourself from just the random hunters versus the hunters that kind of get it done year in and year out, or they find themselves in elk all the time. No, you don't have to sound like, you know, spitting image of the giant bull in the playground, but...

it helps out dramatically if you do sound more realistic than your counterparts that are still in the same area. But

Once again, you know, you can stop at Walmart and pick up a call or stop at your local archery shop on the way in and practice and probably get a, you know, a couple encounters. But you separate yourself dramatically from the field when you sound more realistic. But you can obviously, I mean, I've done it at a young, as when I started hunting elk in 2006, I

It's not the same Jermaine Hodge that hunts now, right? I didn't sound like this in 2006. And I still called him Elk because I sounded somewhat like an elk. But...

It takes also another line of I'm going in areas where no one else is messed with, too. And that kind of adds into the flavor of I don't have to sound realistic because the elk are partying over here. And maybe I called off a satellite bull and I won that way. So I think the more realistic that you do sound, you separate yourself from the field.

Yeah, I agree 100%. How many times have you been out there, been calling a bull, and you and the bull are exchanging bugles, and then all of a sudden you hear a guy up on the ridge that sounds terrible. It sounds like he's abusing a puppy or something. He's making these sounds that are supposed to be like an elk, but maybe they're not even an elk-like sound, or maybe it's a semi-okay bugle. I don't know how many times I've had that happen to where

The elk just stops. You know, this is over the counter, you know, heavily hunted unit. Bull will shut up. He just stopped. He just quits calling. Yep.

So I'll just quit calling too. And then like maybe I'll give it 30, 40 minutes after I hear the last bugle. Maybe let that guy have a chance to leave and then I'll call again. Bam. It's like game on again. So those elk, you know, I don't know. I think some of our listeners probably know, you know, elk can get pretty in tune to if you're an elk or a hunter or not. Yeah.

But I will say this, I think, you know, there's one difference. You know, I said earlier, you're a world champion caller. You know, you don't have to sound like a world champion caller, but you do have to sound like an elk, right? And there's a lot of weird sounding elk out there. But a lot of these calls where people aren't putting in the time to learn how to use a call, you know, they sound like a guy or gal bugling. They sound like a hunter, right?

Right. Whereas put some more time in and get some little bit of a nuance and get more of a realistic sound. It may not be perfect. It doesn't sound like somebody on the world stage, but what it does sound like is a real elk. So, uh, yeah, I totally agree. That's, that's a great, great, great point there. All right. I think we'll switch gears here now. And I want to kind of talk a little bit about ethics, right? Ethics is always a kind of a hotspot. Um,

When we're all hunting, especially over-the-counter type tags, you know, what are your thoughts about navigating the landscape when you're out hunting and hunters being respectful with each other? For instance, you know,

If you read much on social media, people will kind of talk about maybe an encounter they had with a fellow hunter that was negative. They were calling in a bull and –

Then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, some other hunter kind of slips in between them. You know, is that in your mind? Is that OK? Is that something that like we should kind of be like, well, that's that's that's fine. It's you know, we all have the same opportunity out there. Or ethically, is that just like that's kind of that's kind of a no, no, guys. You know, we don't want to we don't want to do that. What's your take on that? Well, you know, I think it's a very thin line. I don't do this often.

particularly, but there's a very thin line. We also have to understand that it's public land, this person's bought the tag, I bought the tag, we're hunting in close proximity of the same area. Maybe I got there before he did or he got there before I did. I try to take it as this,

is if we pull up to a trailhead and I see one other vehicle there, it's a chance that that might be a hunter, not a hiker, not a backpacker. It's a chance that that might be a hunter. And as I'm working my way through the, you know, the terrain that I want to work or the area that I want to work and I pick up

I pick up the notion that, hey, there's a hunter up there on that ridge not too far from us. I usually tend to turn around and kind of go the opposite direction than where that particular hunter is. If he's in the direction where I'm heading, I'll try to take a longer path around that particular person to get where I'm going. But I also know that there's...

Some units are very small and you're going to run into people, but I think the right answer for anybody is just showing a little bit of respect out there. Because if I am working a bull and you hear me, you hear that bull, it's probably a chance that you don't know it's me up there because...

As we said before, I practice to sound like an elk. And there might be a chance that he's working in not knowing at all that I'm up there. Right. And then we kind of run into each other. And but most of the 99 percent of the people that I've run into are.

are super nice and super respectful man i didn't know you was in there sorry i messed up your stuff no big deal you know it's it's a it's a public land and we're hunting the same areas and and you know now that i know what he's driving because i'm gonna ask him hey what are you driving so i can stay away from that area that he's working but uh i think it i think as as hunters we owe each other the the respect to kind of

give each other our space because there's lots, I mean, from Colorado, for example, there's lots of land out here that's, that's, you know, over the counter land, whether it's public land, whether it's BLM and stuff that you can hunt. And I think we owe it to each other to kind of go out our way to avoid each other. And believe it or not, when you do that, you find yourself calling in more elk anyways. So.

That hunter might be bumping elk into another ridge. You go check that other ridge. No hunters back there. And then you call it an elk. So I think as, as hunters, we owe it to each other to kind of, kind of just show that respect.

Yeah, I agree. I think, I think sometimes people get caught up being so competitive, you know, every, everybody wants to get that elk, you know, a elk or whatever they've, they've, they've put invested a lot of time, they've invested energy, they've invested money to get there. And I think sometimes, you know, emotions will let, um,

Sometimes some folks, they'll let their emotions run wild and be like, they're going to do whatever it takes to get that bull, you know, by a legal means. But unfortunately, sometimes that could, it could be a little tricky situation with another hunter. And I always like to say, you know, let's follow the golden rule, you know, do unto others as they would do unto you, right? Yeah.

That's right. If I don't want, you know, I don't feel like I want some other hunter climbing up on me whenever I'm trying to get a bull. I'm definitely not going to intrude into somebody else's hunt. And if I were to do that, I would definitely feel bad about it. And if I saw him, I'd say, hey, man, I'm really sorry. So, but I agree. I think majority of the people out there are trying to do it right. They're trying to do it right.

to go out and have a good time and connect and kind of get away, far away from mankind as they can. You know, I think that's what they're there for. So that's good. - Quick story, last year, our 2022 season, I was hunting this particular area and I've known this area for a while. And I've known that not many people go in this area.

Well, as I'm hunting this area, I got a few bulls to respond. And I know legitimately that these are bulls and I'm working on them. And as I'm working them, you know, they kind of got quiet on me a little bit. And I didn't understand why they got quiet because everything was perfect for my scenario. But about 20 minutes later, as I'm trying to get these bulls to respond,

I look up and I see these two hunters sneaking in on me. And so I waved at them. And the guy comes. We kind of run into each other. And I said, he said, man, you sound amazing. We really thought that you were the bull. And I said, well...

There was a couple bulls up here and lo and behold, I figured out the whole picture of what was going on. The wind was great for us. The wind was horrible for them. And then when they started working into both of me and the other bulls,

The wind was horrible and I think that those elk smelled them. And that's the only thing I could point it to because of where they came from and where these bulls were. But now that I knew that they were hunting back there in that area, I pulled out of that area. I didn't go back in that area for five or six days.

I just wanted to let them have what they were going to have in that area. And I didn't come back in there until five to six days later, but come to find out they were locals and they pretty much had that area locked down with trail cameras and some other areas.

And I thought they, you know, when we got back in there towards the end of the season, I thought they were gone. And lo and behold, they were still in there working those same group of elk. What I did is I ran into them again. I said, okay, I'm not coming back here in this particular area again. What I'm going to do is I'm going to check the next ridge over. Because if they've been hunting in that area for that long, they've pushed these elk to another ridge. Yeah.

And lo and behold, they did. And we found it very successful when we went over a next ridge. We were calling in tons of bulls. And those were the same bulls that they had on those trail cameras. Man, that's awesome. So, you know, just showing a little bit of respect. I know if they wanted to hunt that area, then I'll let them have it because I'll go check some other areas. Yep, that's the thing. You know, there's just so much...

so much ground out there, you know, I think everybody, you know, there's, there's room for everybody, especially if everybody just kind of goes their own way and, and have, and it just, it turns out to be a better hunt in the end anyway. So no, that's awesome. Yep.

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Let's talk about hunting partners a little bit. So hunting partners, a person kind of gets pretty good friends, pretty tight with a hunting partner. And sometimes it can be a disaster and sometimes it can be you become brothers. Right. And what do you think sets that apart? What what what's been your experience to have you have a successful relationship with a hunting partner?

Well, you know, I've hunted with, I've been fortunate enough to hunt with lots of people throughout my elk hunting ventures. And I found that, you know, I'm very selective on a personal side. I'm very selective of, you know, who I try to go out to the woods with. And I've got to understand that my...

my hunting style is not going to gel with everybody and their hunting style. So, you know, I had the fortunate opportunity to hunt with a good friend last year and his hunting style was way more relaxed in mind. And I'm a go-getter. I'm very aggressive and I try to pick the

the hunting partners that are going to last a long time with me, that their style is very similar to my style. And we have, uh,

some of the same goals that we want to achieve. Not just coming out here to harvest an elk, but maybe possibly checking out new areas or whatever the case may be. But it's a lifestyle. And if my hunting partner can live that lifestyle for 365 like I do,

We live and we wake up and we think about elk. We wake up thinking about the next adventure. And we wake up thinking about, man, oh, I got to get on the phone with my buddy and see if he's thinking the same thing. Yeah, I was just thinking that same thing. So I think, you know, I think hunting partners are built through friendship. And when you have a good friend that hunts,

I think you'll find that you guys have the same beliefs and the same goals at the very end. So for me, I'm very selective when it comes to hunting partners. I give everybody a try, just like I'll try any kind of food, but doesn't mean I'm going to eat that food again. I might be like, hey, that wasabi was nasty. I'm not doing that anymore. So I think for me, I love actually hunting with a partner because

I like sharing the same passion with somebody. And it puts a really, really big smile on my face when I can call in a bull for my partner

and see his eyes light up like he's a kid that that's awesome to me i'm like dude that was a great encounter that was awesome but i i also hold uh i hold my my hunting partners that have been with me for a while i hold them at a very high standard and i'll let them know in a heartbeat man you're slipping oh man so um

I get this question a lot talking to people and they say, what if your hunting partner is not working out? How do you...

Break up. How do you... Let's say, you know, and you say, well, sometimes, you know, if it's just not jiving, you have to cut the cord at some point. But, you know, it's family. You know, it's my brother-in-law or it's my uncle or whatever. You know, he wants to sit in camp and drink beer all the time. And I want to go hike up and down the mountains and chase bugles. And, you know, what happens...

when you have you've either drifted away or you've put all some effort into you know getting this hunting partner and in the end it turns out you know guys aren't jiving real good how would you approach like giving them the ultimatum like hey let's we're gonna either hunt like this or maybe we can't hunt anymore how would you how would you do that well i've run into that in in my past um but

You can call me ruthless. I guess you can call me ruthless. I guess a lot of people do call me. My wife definitely calls me ruthless. You are ruthless. And I'm like, no, this goes, the same goes as mine. And so I will say this is a very thin line. You have a family member and I've talked to somebody in the past about this. You have a family member that wants to go hunting with you. They, they, they, they'll go hunting with you every year. And they,

They refuse to learn how to call an elk. They refuse to work out. They refuse to do this. Well, it's okay that we go to camp and we hang out. But know at the very end of this, I'm going to go this way. You can go whatever way you want to. It doesn't mean I can't share camp with you. It just means I might be hiking further than you can go.

and get in there a little bit different um but know that there's if that's a weight that's holding you down year in and year out and that might be the the turning point of you being successful and not being successful you have to cut those ties you have to and i'm a firm believer of of letting that person know hey listen this year i'm gonna do things a little differently

And explain yourself. And whether they like it or not, this man, we've been doing this for 10 years. You refuse to work out. You refuse to learn how to call. We go out here 10 years straight and we haven't killed an elk yet. There's an issue here. And I'm doing everything in my power to be successful. So there's a real thin line there. I mean, I guess as a family member, you don't want to hurt their feelings. But at the same time, at the very end of this,

You do what's best for you and your tag, right? If you feel like this partner is not cutting the weight and you have the tag, then you do what's best for you and your tag. And you have to put yourself above the other's

It's almost a selfish thing. You almost have to be a little selfish when it comes to being successful out in the elk woods. Now, it comes back down to where I was talking about choosing your partners and choosing them right. If you'd done that at the very beginning, you wouldn't find yourself in this particular moment. And if you've been hunting together...

for a long time, then you just need to have that little talk with your hunting partner. Hey, I need you to start getting in shape, buddy, not just for elk season, but maybe for your health, for longevity. And then, you know, those little talks resonate. And if you don't open your mouth and open, closed mouth doesn't get fed, you'll get the same results year in and year out. Yeah, I love that. I love that. I feel like...

One successful way, let's say you're thinking about bringing on a new hunting partner. I think communication is super important in the beginning. These are my goals. This is what I want out of hunting. This is the experience I want to see out of elk hunting, right? I want to do it this way.

And, uh, what are your goals? You know, compare goals, compare notes. If, if notes and goals and can, uh, compare if they're comparable, um, yeah, let's, let's see how this goes. And then putting in the off season work, like you said, scouting homework, you know, e-scouting, uh, working out, you know, if, if they're working just as hard as you and the off season to figure out elk hunting and they're trying to, um,

be successful, that's another good quality for a good partner, right? And then I love what you said about, you know, hey, you know, I'll share a camp with you, but, you know,

We obviously have two different kind of mindsets on how we want to hunt together. So tell you what, I'm going to go do what I like to do. You go do what you like to do. And hey, you know what? If you get one, I'll come help you pack it out. And if I get one, well, if you want, come help me pack it out or whatever. But I feel like there's...

there's a good option there for, you know, not completely ending a friendship, but, you know, um, cause I, you know, there, I think there's been a lot of friendships that have been, that have actually ended over, over, over hunting camps and, and, uh, in some, you know, maybe that's better, you know, you're, you're better off that way anyway, but, but, uh,

Yeah, it's tough to find a good hunting partner that you jive on all levels. And I think, too, it's important to find that person that they're going to work just as hard in the field for you to get your tag filled as they want to fill their own, if not more. Like, if I go hunt with Jermaine, I want Jermaine to kill an elk more than I want to kill an elk.

I almost feel like that's like the ultimate gift you can give someone is to call in a bull for them and help them succeed, get a bull. I feel like that's like the ultimate gift to give. Right. And they'll say giving is better than receiving. Right. But on the flip side, if I do that for you, then you're going to see that and you're going to want to reciprocate. You're going to be like, man, he worked hard for me to get that. I really want to pay back that favor. And it's just it's just good business.

Right. I mean, I'll give you a quick story. Last year, 2022, before season even started, you know, I have a good hunting partner of mine that we've been hunting for years together. And I told him what my goals were, the communication part of it. And I told him, I said, I need to know that

Are you willing to do this? Because if you're not, then I'm going to bring in somebody else that's willing to do this. And it wasn't that I was cutting ties. I was just making sure that we were going to be chilling the whole season. Yeah. Because I'm not going to have you mad at me because I'm trying to do this and you're not really trying to do that. Well, long story short, he told me this. He said,

I'm not carrying my bow until we get this goal done. And I said, okay, well, I'm going to hold you to that. And he didn't want to carry his bow. I told him, I said, as soon as I'm done, I promise you, I will call you in an L. Because he didn't want to shoot anything, right? He'll shoot anything. As long as it was legal, he'll shoot anything. And I said, I promise you, I'll return that. And sure enough, because I say this, what...

This was the first year that anyone has called in an elk for me, anyone. And that was a super, a super happy moment to see it at its, at its finest anyways. And then after we were done,

We went back in and I called in a giant for him in return. So it works out just like that. But you have to communicate at the very beginning and let them know, hey, these are the goals. Are you willing to do this? And sure enough, once you find that partner, don't ever let go. Always keep that bond. Keep that bond with them. I love it. I love it. Those are some great insights, Jermaine.

So what's up for 2023? What does your schedule look like for 2020? Are you elk hunting? Are you going to elk hunt this year? Oh, that's not even a question, is it? Okay. So are you going to chase elk in your home state of Colorado? Are you going to venture out at all?

Yeah, so, you know, I think I got a couple different things going on. First and foremost, I burned up my points last year in this particular unit that I love. I love this unit a lot. And I know, you know, there's always an opportunity to kill some very important

I say big bulls for Colorado. Big bull is 330, but there's a lot of big bulls that are well over 360 and, you know, even better. So in this particular unit, I bring up my points. So this year,

I'm not going to draw that unit, but there's some opportunities on the second draw in a reissue list. And then for the listeners that don't know, that reissue list is huge. It's a lot of opportunities where, let's say, Dirk Durham, you know, got a tag and he can't make it to Colorado and he got a primo tag and he spent maybe, you know, five points or six points on this tag.

Well, they give the opportunity back to the public. Right. So if they go, let's say that in that list, if the tag is worth over five points, they go to the next in line. If they refuse that tag, they go down like four or five people. If they refuse that tag, it gets put on the reissue list.

And this year I've seen well over probably 10 units that were on that reissue list that were well over eight to 10 point tags. Wow.

There's a lot of opportunity on that reissue list. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to put in for my point as usual. And then I'm going to play that second draw in that reissue list. And I'm going to play that reissue list from the very beginning of August to the end of August. That gives me four weeks on that reissue list. And if I can land a tag within that reissue list,

then I'll hunt some of those premier units. If I can't get a tag by the end of August or the beginning of September,

Then I'm going to just go grab an over-the-counter tag and go slay one in the over-the-counter unit, which is probably not going to be an issue anyways. Like I said, it's a lot of elk in Colorado. So that's going to be my Colorado plan for sure. Rebuild points, play the second and reissue list. And then once I rebuild points, then I'll have enough to draw maybe another premier unit like I did last year. If...

If by some chance I have to hunt an over-the-counter unit, I'll probably be somewhere northwest Colorado. Not sure exactly what unit quite yet. I have a lot of them in Colorado.

insight that I've heard it before or or I've had friends hunt before. So I'm probably going to be up there in that northwest territory of Colorado. That's my Colorado plan. Of course, I always put in for all the different kind of species, but we'll just concentrate on elk.

I am putting in for a goat tag this year for sure. Mountain goat. Cause the odds are super good. I looked at this and I was like, wow, there's a lot of people getting these tags with like three points or four points. So, uh, once you get past that three point, it's all random anyways. Um,

But I am going to venture out of state this year if I can draw the tag, which we all know that it's hard to draw tags out of state as a non-resident. So I'm going to put my name in a hat for a New Mexico tag. I'm going to try to link up with an outfitter, use their code, and possibly get in an extra 10% chance to draw that tag. But it's not going to be my A-plan by no means necessary.

And then I'll continue to put in points for Montana. I'll continue to put points for Wyoming because I'm not quite ready. I'm waiting because I just dropped my retirement paperwork. And I think it would be more feasible once I retire to tackle, you know, two or three states.

I'll have the time to do that versus, you know, I have to stay close because if work does call, then I have to go back and check in or take care of some stuff. It usually is rare that it happens, but it's

If they did call, I would have to come back down the mountain and take care of something if it needed to be done. So I think once my next year, when next year hits and I'm fully retired, I'll be able to tackle more than one state. So I'm going to just put my name in a hat for New Mexico, concentrate on Colorado as my A&B plan. And if New Mexico hits and I get a tag down there, I'll play both fields. Right on. That sounds like a pretty good plan.

pretty good plan um for me you know i'm still trying to figure it out you know you know i'm an idaho resident so definitely get an idaho tag um looking at some new country this year um so who knows i'm gonna i'm gonna cast a wide net and see what i pick up we'll see where i'm going i don't i don't even know yet but i have an idea of where i'm gonna start but um

But once summer hits and, you know, I got had ankle surgery. So my summer, I'm not gonna be able to do much at all till probably June, July for hiking wise. So, man, I got a lot of work to do in June, July and August. So but a lot of the snows and mountain snows are not always gone in any earlier than that in Idaho anyway. So you can't really get into a lot of places until the end of June. So, yeah.

But definitely going to get my intentions on applying out of state, you know, whether building points or applying for a tag. But we'll see. My options, I keep my options open still. I mean, it's still a little bit early to try to formulate a plan perfectly, but we'll see how everything kind of turns out, you know, once tags start hitting the ground. Yeah.

Yeah, no, I I knew when Idaho when they started, they opened up the tag allocation and the draw. And I knew it was going to be a nightmare. And then I heard later that it was just absolutely bonkers. So I'm not quite ready for Idaho for that only reason.

I would love to get out and hunt Idaho, but we got to get a better system before I can get on. Because if I get on there and I'm number 40,000 in line, your chances of getting a tag are very slim anyway. So for a non-resident anyway, so for that reason only, I'm not going to bite that apple.

you know, I'm, I'll get on my soapbox a little bit on that, you know, um, God, there's gotta be a better way. Cause geez, Louise, whenever during that time. So for our listeners who don't know how the Idaho non-resident, um,

acquiring a tag for over-the-counter type units, it's almost like a lottery drawing, but not really, right? So you log in to the website before, you know, 15 minutes before 10 o'clock. Let's say the tag is going to sale at 10. You log in, you get in a virtual waiting line, and it don't matter if you're the first guy there or somebody that... You get this random number. So you never know if you're going to get your tag or not. So let's say...

Jermaine and I both are non-residents and we want to go to Idaho together. So we both get online at our at our homes. And, OK, we get in the virtual waiting line. I'm number 56 and you're you're number 56,000.

chances of you and me getting to elk hunt together are slim and none. It's a flawed system. It's dumb. There's got to be a better way to do it. And I don't know. I feel like they thought it would be more user-friendly, maybe a little more fair. I don't know what the Idaho Fish and Game are thinking on it, but I'm hoping, and I don't know anything, but I'm hoping they're like looking to revamp that. You know,

Why can't they do a drawing? I mean, like every other state, you know, it sucks to have to draw, but it's proven now in the last, I don't know, couple, three years now, there's a big demand for tags.

And it's not their system they're doing now is not getting any better. So maybe they should just go to a drawing, random drawing for those non-resident tags. That way you and I can put in together as a party. And if one of us draw a tag, we both get it and we both get to go. Because the way it is now, it's just it's really hard for friends or family members to hunt together as a non-resident. Yeah.

Right. So I totally agree with you. Like, so we kind of flashback a little bit. I remember it was during the COVID era and everybody thought that, you know, for me, I had the thought mind frame that,

Everybody and their mom was going to be out here hunting. And it came out and it was true. It was 660,000 applicants. 660,000 for Colorado. That's incredible. So now imagine...

Now, imagine that if we had the Idaho system where everybody logged in at the same time and you got a random number. Now, imagine six hundred and sixty thousand people trying to log in under one system.

it's going to crash. It's going to crash. It's going to crash big time. So I think Idaho, definitely for that aspect of it, their system is way overloaded and it's outdated compared to some of the other states.

Now, I do agree with you. You allocate so many tags. Just put it in as a draw. It don't have to be point-based, but just put it in as a draw, and it could be randomized. And then you can come up with a system later on like they have now where –

They go in, first come, first serve. These are the tags that's left over. First come, first serve kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. There'll be tags that get turned back, you know. So like within the first period, within the first week of those tags going on sale in Idaho, I'm not sure if there was any elk tags left. I know they sold out really quick, right? Yeah.

But I feel like you and this this kind of creates a panic buy, in my opinion, too. So people get on there and they're like, well, gee whiz, I've waited six hours in this line and the tag I wanted I can't get. So, well, what is what's left? Oh, I'm going to get one of those. They'll pick a unit that's just like, well, there's a tag. I'm going to buy this tag.

So then they buy a tag on a unit they don't know anything about. You see it on social media a lot. Folks are like, hey, this is the only tag I could get. I don't know anything about it. Does anybody know anything about this unit? But so if they can't find out enough positives about that tag, I could see them possibly turning that tag back in.

Right. Right. And then it goes back. And then, you know, people are just delayed further and further out trying to acquire that tag. But I feel like, you know, you have your allotted amounts for each unit. Let people apply for them and you can kind of bank on it. And if you draw it, great. If you don't, well, great. You know. And then at a certain point, there'll be tags that go back anyway. But I feel like the experience and the opportunity for people to get the tag they want.

Would be a little better. So anyway, I don't know. I definitely like the way...

you know, New Mexico does their system. Yeah. It's so randomized. It's perfect. You know, I don't need no points. I have a good, good enough chance as anybody else to get this particular tag. So it's random. And then, then Colorado, for example, you know, you could, as a non-resident, you could have 20 something points trying to get a premier unit and not get it. It's crazy. So I,

I definitely see some changes coming to Colorado. I don't, I don't know that it's going to happen anytime soon, but it's definitely some changes coming to Colorado. That's for sure. And it's going to be hard for people to adjust to that because I just don't see in near future. And I don't know when the near future is, but I don't see them continuing with the over the counter tags anymore. I just see it coming and being that I'm here and you hear a lot, I,

I could definitely see some changes coming. So that's going to put up, that's going to put a big damper on a lot of people that's trying to come to Colorado because now you're going to have to particularly pick a unit. And if you don't know anything about that unit, there's going to be a lot of tags turned back in. Um, I see that same thing on social media. Like, uh, I drew this unit, this only tag I can get. And everybody's like, turn the tag back in. It's a waste of time. Yeah. It's pretty funny. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, man, thanks a lot for coming on the show today. Appreciate it. It's always good to catch up with you. I always enjoy our talks and man, good luck this fall. Tell our listeners where can they find your main Hodge? Okay. Yeah. I'm usually on Instagram.com.

And all my posts usually go from Instagram. I just tagged it right into Facebook. I'm rarely on Facebook anymore because there's just so much going on in Facebook. It's hard for me to keep up, but you can find me at Jermaine.

hodge underscore colorado on instagram and then you can also find my uh my little page it's called colorado high up two hunters it's not much there but we you know it's baby steps of course and then you can always google me i mean uh search me on facebook as jermaine hodge and i'll pop up if i don't have an elk picture or or deer picture there then it's not me that ain't you

Hey, one more thing. You did some filming, elk filming this fall of your hunts, and those are going to get edited up and go on your YouTube channel. What's your YouTube channel?

Yeah, so it's all going to be on the Colorado High Altitude Hunters. You'll see it. It looks like it's a red Colorado sign with the mountains on there. Once again, Colorado High Altitude Hunters. We'll drop a 10-day series throughout the hunt, and then there will be a film later on produced, too, as well. So it'll be fun. It's a lot of action-packed.

There was a lot of days that we got in the elk every day, but there was a lot of days that you get bullies. They were talking and then you're like, what in the heck is going on? And then they would come in silent. That was a lot of our action. And then towards the latter part of the season, it just turned up. It was it was absolutely bonkers. So it is definitely going to be some good footage on there. Man, I can't wait to see it. Can't wait to see it. Well, thanks again for coming on and we'll catch you next time.

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