Solving Murder with Special Guest Sheila Wysocki
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This is Murder, She Told, true crime stories from Maine, New England, and small town USA. I'm your host, Kristen Zevey. You can connect with me and suggest your hometown crime at MurderSheTold.com and follow me on Instagram at MurderSheToldPodcast.

This week is a very special episode of Murder, She Told. I'm so excited to welcome a special interview guest today. We are going to be traveling outside of New England and making a pit stop in the not-so-small town of Dallas, Texas, and ending up in Nashville, Tennessee. And without further ado, I would like to welcome Sheila Wysocki to Murder, She Told.

Thank you so much for asking me to be on. I couldn't believe you said yes. I was like, I'm just going to send her an email. And then an hour later, I had a response. And I was so excited that you wanted to talk to me. So thank you for being here. I can't say enough on how appreciative I am to have you here today. Well, I appreciate you asking. And of course, I'm going to say yes.

So I'm familiar with your story from your interview on Criminal with the amazing Phoebe Judge. She's great. But some of my listeners might not be as familiar with you and of the case that got you started, which is the case of your roommate, Angela Samota. So I'd like to start with that case a little bit and what called you to this work of being a private investigator?

Well, I'll give you my Reader's Digest version, which is my college roommate, Angie. I called her Angie, not Angela. So, but she was raped and murdered. And the perpetrator who did that was free for years and years. And in 2000, it was probably 2002 when I decided to go to a...

Bible study. And my kids had been sick and in the hospital for a while. And it was the first time they were back in school and we were, I was free for, you know, to do something. And of course, in the South, when you do something, you go to Bible study.

And so I went to Bible study and for a while we were doing Daniel, which if you're not familiar with the Bible and Daniel, it's a very powerful subject. And I went to the Bible study and I had a vision, not the kind of vision that you, that people understand, but it was so crystal clear to me. Of course,

You know, I was laying in bed, leaning back, whether or not it's a, I really try to explain what it was because it's only happened a few times. And I was totally relaxed. And there was Angie, not a word said, not even, I can't even tell you if it was one to five seconds because it happens so quickly, but it's so slow and,

And I knew at that moment I was supposed to do something on her case. So I reached over and picked up the phone, called the Dallas Police Department, which they quickly blew me off. And her case had not been looked at in 20 years at that point, which if.

Doing this for a living now, I think every person deserves answers and not every family wants answers, but the ones that do deserve it. And it crushed me to hear. That's probably the one time that I really emotionally was drained listening to or thinking about Angie not being

Not one person called in 20 years. Are you kidding me? She deserves so much more. So at that moment, I decided to really start reworking the case and the Reader's Digest version because I think I've gone on too long. Oh, no, not at all.

Well, so I became a private investigator thinking the police would open up the case to me, which I was sorely disappointed. And they weren't excited about having a middle-aged woman asking questions about the case.

And I got my license, annoyed the fire out of them. And they sent a fantastic female detective my way. And she reopened the case.

And now I was told over the years they lost the file, they lost the evidence. I was, I mean, most normal people would have stopped. But I kept pushing and they opened the case, got the DNA tested, and we had a hit. And in 2010, we

I call him the beast because I don't want people to remember his name, but he was convicted of capital murder and he's on death row. And I do have this question a lot about capital cases. I don't care if they put him to death. That's up to a jury and the legal system. But I did want him off the streets.

Wow. Okay. So you're called to this work. You have a vision of Angie there and you take it a step further than leaving it simply about thinking about your lost friend. At what point did you think or did you ever think, I'm a little bit nuts for doing this? Or were you just so driven by purpose and in finding answers for her? So like I said, most normal people would have stopped.

So I was told over and over that, you know, the file was gone. The case was not to be solved. The DNA was gone. What person keeps pushing? So

Does that mean I'm persistent or not? I would go with the persistence. But I also feel like there is something deep inside that is, people call it a calling. I call it a gut feeling. I just have this gut feeling and I'm very in tune to that.

Now, I know from listening to your story on Criminal that you were kind of involved in the investigation in an unofficial capacity when you were still just a college student yourself. And I think that's so perplexing for me as, you know, an ordinary citizen to think that the police would ask you to have these conversations with people who at the time were suspected of being the killer. Can you talk about your involvement before it was more official? Sure. Also, you're such a badass for doing that.

Again, it goes to persistent or nuts. I don't know which. Maybe a healthy mix of both. First of all, it was in the 80s and things were way different back then on how things were discussed and handled.

So I would meet, this is still so crazy to me to think about it, but I would meet the detective at a bar and we would talk. I didn't drink. He heavily drank. But we would talk about the case and.

I learned so much just sitting there listening to him, but then I had what he needed was an, a connection with each person that they were looking at or specific people. So it was, it was a good match. I wouldn't do it today. Um, if I were, uh, in my twenties, but you know, back then, um,

that anything the police said, it was gold. Anything the police asked was gold. You didn't question a police officer. Right. So I thought he knew, um,

I thought that was the way to go. So I had conversations. I had dinner with the suspected murderer at that point. My mother, I remember flipped out single mom and I'm going off in a car with a murderer and she was beside herself. You know, but I, there is something about doing it that I felt protected and I

It was really good for me. It was a great lesson for where I am now. And I'm glad I did it.

I don't think I would do those things today. Well, I know my mom worries when I walk home late at night from the subway in New York City. So I can't imagine having to tell her like, don't worry, it's just official police business. I'm just trying to catch a murderer here. If I don't come back, please follow through. And you didn't even have a police detail or anything following you, right? No. And we didn't have phones back then. People don't remember. I mean, we didn't have 911 or a phone or anything like that.

You know, we just had our voices scream. After helping solve Angie's case, you nearly closed the door on this work. So what made you continue your life as a PI? I absolutely was just going to retire my license and move on and be a mom again, just a mom. And I say that tongue in cheek because there's no just a mom. But...

There was some press on it. And that's what, when people started writing letters. So, you know, we were getting letters

or I was getting people that mailed me letters with documents of their cases. And I looked at them and I thought, gosh, this doesn't seem that difficult to, you know, get done. And they were heartbroken. All these people were heartbroken. Well, I know that feeling. And so I also know that people just wanted to be heard. And so I called every one of them.

And my son, I recently did an interview. He said, stop telling people you personally call people back because that has backfired on me when a thousand people one night on a show wrote me. So I'm still thinking I have missed people and they hate me. But I called each person back and started helping and formed a nonprofit called

and brought in private investigators that helped me look at these cases. You know, you're a woman in this field, and I say woman with emphasis because, at least from my perspective, when you're watching TV shows and movies, you don't often see a woman doing this role. I mean, well, maybe like Veronica Mars, but... No, I love her. Yeah.

How is it being a woman in this field? How does that even work? Like, how do people look at you? Have you faced uphill challenges? Do you think it gives you a leg up? I think I wrote you about me being in this industry or profession where

the way I'm treated, it's pretty hilarious. And I have a great sense of humor about it. So I know certain areas of the country that if I walk into a police department or a courtroom, I'm immediately discounted immediately. I have no brain. I'm a, you know, over 50 white woman who it doesn't matter.

And then other parts of the country, it's a free for all. Come on in. Let's talk, but we're not going to listen to you. So it's great because I'm always underestimated, always. And I want to be. I want people to underestimate my ability to get it done because they're not going to see it coming. Now,

I am smart enough to know when I'm in a case that I bring in the stereotypical, traditional looking acting private investigator so I can get the job done. I'll sit in on the meeting. And like I just was down in the South and at a police station and the police officer came out to talk to us and

And my, the, the person I brought with me who is stereotypical traditional PI looking guy, um, he was in the restroom and the detective looked at me and I said, oh, I'm the support staff. And he was okay with that. If I had said I'm also a private investigator, I think it would have been a different kind of conversation, um,

So we went back into the room and he did his thing and we walked out and I knew had I been the lead,

it wouldn't have happened. We didn't get what we wanted anyway, which I knew we wouldn't, but at least we asked. The fact that you have to use that angle is, I mean, I guess it's not truly surprising to me given how women can generally be misunderstood in many fields and not just the field of private investigating. But the fact that that's a technique that you've learned and adopted and you know how to use is impressive that you know how to read a room like that.

It's well, and I'll give you another example in Texas. We had a case where, you know, all the research, everything was done, coordinated by me and

But in order to sit down with a particular medical examiner, I didn't go to the meeting because I knew that would be a distraction. Wow. A distraction. Yeah. Why is she here? Okay. So that raises another question for me. Is there a certain synergy between the work that you do and the work that the police department does? Like, do your roles intersect? Do you always work together? No. Is it?

Dare I say, is it a nice collaboration and working on these cases? So, yeah, no. Generally, so unfortunately, I don't command. How can I put this without offending? So there are always really fantastic detectives and police officers around.

Those are the cases I'm not called in on because they've done their job. I'm called in. I'm set up from the get-go of cases that detectives did not do their job. And so they're not going to embrace when they see my name or a phone call come through from me. They're not going to embrace that they got a phone call from me.

So, you know, no, we do not work well together because generally they have not done their job. And, you know, I'm the person going through starting from scratch with no information from the police. And a lot of times they haven't even done the basics.

And then, you know, I have to start over. I have to reenact the case. I have to take what I can that's public information. And what's interesting in this country is a lot of times they don't have to turn over 911 calls, which is public information, but not in certain states. They can pick and choose who they give it to. So they make it even harder for me. So my cases are like swimming in a swamp and just,

trying to get air every once in a while. That must be so frustrating, especially as a woman when you're coming into the room and they're already looking at you like you're lesser than them, but you're basically coming in to clean up a job they didn't do. Exactly. So you jump into a case you're called in on and you have to start from square one.

What does that even look like? In the case of Angie, like two decades had passed and evidence is lost and witnesses might be gone. So where do you even begin? I would love to get a little bit of insight on what this process looks like, even though I'm sure it's not exactly a straight line. No.

Well, in Angie's particular case, I lived it. So I knew all the players. So that's not a typical case for me. A typical case, and this is where I got to say, I love these moms out there. They are fantastic people because it's again, that gut feeling that they go with and they know, they know something's not right. So generally the moms that I deal with, and it's not always moms. I have some dads.

but they start documenting and they start documenting everything. So when they come to me, it's years later, it's never, you know, five months later, it's two years or more later. Some, the Lauren Agee case, she was a year later, but she, I mean, Sherry was on it. But

The cases first come to me and I look at the documentation, just the general stuff, the things that the parents have gotten. If they haven't, then I tell them to get the police reports.

Then we go from there. And hopefully some of them have autopsies, some don't. But I am limited on the number of cases I can take. So I am with the family for anywhere from two to five years.

This is not, and some longer, this is not, they, I have to like the family and I have to respect what they've done and that they, I have rules. They can't be vindictive or, you know, they have to listen to me. And if they lie to me, we stop immediately. I'm done.

So they can't lie to me. They can't reach out and threaten the people they believe did something. You know, they have to follow what I say. And then we walk through the

the background. I learn everything about the victim. I learn everything about the different scenarios that happen. And then I start bringing in experts. The other thing on cases, you've got to afford it. And that's unfortunate, but experts don't work for free. So when do you start crawling around in bushes? I never crawl around in bushes. So there are, let me give you, that is hilarious.

So, um, first of all, the good thing about where I am in my life is I can pick and choose. I have done the, uh, surveillance. I have done the crawling around in bushes and, um,

I have, I've done everything. I don't choose to do everything now. Now they're younger. I have about five females that I'm mentoring right now and they can do it. I can hire them to do it. So in my cases, it's generally going back through and interviewing and, you

And it's reconstruct, so all of my cases, I reconstruct what was told and to, and I've got an animator I use in, um, where is he Portland? And so I'll send up the documents and tell him the measurements and he'll tell me whether or not he'll build it for me because I'm a visual person and we'll look and see if it looks like it could have happened the way the police report reads or if it's impossible.

I've done a lot of my own research for this show and in general, and just a lot of reading and listening and watching of true crime. And I feel like more often than not, it's an Occam's razor situation. And the most obvious explanation of what happened is usually the one that's true. I agree. So it's, it's, first of all,

Criminals are not that smart. If you just shot somebody or, you know, threw them off a cliff or, you know, hit their head against a wall or whatever, um,

it happened quickly. You're not thinking clearly. So it's, and unless it's premeditated and that gives you a little, you know, little heads up, but not, not too much, but it's usually, so I have a friend in Seattle who's a former homicide detective and I called him on a case and I was like, okay, here's what, and I talked to a lot of people by the way, on my cases. So I gave him the scenario and he goes, you're making it,

too difficult. These people are not that bright. And we went back to the basics and we were able to figure out what, what happened. But I, one of the things that I use is what I call crowdsourcing justice, where I go in and I bring in other people to hear and kind of brainstorms, probably what you guys do on podcasting and different people, you know,

It's getting another mind in there so they can look at it and kind of get through the weeds. It seems like there's a recent uptick in interest in true crime and cases are getting coverage on podcasts and in media. Do you find it helpful to the cases that you're working on? I absolutely love the public being involved in my cases.

And I'll give you an example. I'm speaking this week at a conference of investigators and I'm trying to get them to use this method because in certain cases you can't do them on all, but mine, you definitely can on mine. But I needed information. I was in court and I couldn't leave. And the attorney turned to me and he said, I need these statistics right now. We're in court.

So of course I can go online and do it. I put out to a group, I said, I need these statistics this second. Within five minutes, I had several of them have the screenshot, everything and gave it to them. That's awesome. How great is that?

I mean, it's probably been a huge turning point in a lot of these cases. The fact that there is so much attention being pulled to the cases that have gone unsolved for so long. Bear Brook is something that comes to mind. The podcast about the bodies found in the barrels in the New Hampshire woods. And I mean, that podcast, it's one of my personal favorites.

It seemed to be solved as the podcast was being produced, and that's not something that would have happened in the 80s. No, no. We didn't have this kind of interest, number one, or a way to communicate. We didn't have the internet. Right.

We barely had phones. And then also just more easily being able to use DNA evidence and technology evolving and being able to solve these cases that have literally been sitting on the shelves for two or three decades or even more, you know, being able to test the backlog, right? Right. 228,000. Wow. So think about those families. It's a huge number. Correct. I can only imagine your view of these at-home DNA test kits. Are you a fan?

I am a fan that other people do them, but I'm very much against my family being involved in anything that turns over any personal and private information. I mean, you have a completely different scope of what's possible with that kind of information. Correct. So I am not a fan of, you know, I am public, but I don't want my family to be public.

And, um, I don't want things shared at all on the internet, any body fluids. Uh, when my children were younger, they were ill. And one of the things that was asked is, you know, can we use, um,

I think it was the DNA. And I was like, absolutely not. Because first of all, the hospital owns it then. Owned your own DNA. That was one thing. And then secondly, there's no telling what could be done with it. So no, I'm not a fan. However, these kits...

It's voluntary. You're making the decision, so I'm all about that. On one hand, I'm curious to learn about my history, but I think too that we're dazzled by the cool things that we could learn on the internet. And then we just forget about further reaching implications that on one hand could be good. I mean, you could be the link to solve someone's case.

But who knows what else that information could then be used for. It could be mishandled. And I see so much in my world of things being mishandled. I'm not a fan. It's just all really fascinating to me. Yeah, I'm all about DNA, obviously. But, you know, I just think that we've gotten, we've lost sight of what can be done with personal information. Look about identity theft.

So now you're giving up your only thing that is all about you. Yeah, you're handing over your DNA. Yes. So how much does social media impact your cases? Is it useful in a way of investigating a lot of these cases that you're currently working on? Yes, and thank you to social media. And I appreciate everybody who posts everything from where they're going to be and what they're eating and who they're with.

I appreciate every aspect of social media. It probably also gets people involved with the cases too. How do you use social media, I guess, to like put out a call to action or crowdsourcing for stuff that you need help with? Do you have any pinnacle moments of social media leading to a big break in a case? Oh, I can name hundreds. I,

I absolutely believe in social media, whether it's Twitter or Facebook or anything, Instagram. So we can find pictures that people forgot they posted that can lead to putting them at the area of a crime.

I can put a call to action. For instance, in Lorne Agee's case, I asked people to write the governor and let him know that they want someone with authority like the FBI to reopen the case. I know he's gotten a lot of emails on that.

I, you know, anything that I need, I'll put out there. I love social media and I love the people that follow social media because they'll jump in. Now, I don't ask for anything crazy or I definitely don't want people stalking or, you know, friending somebody just to get information. That's not what it's about. But if somebody is friends and they turn over information, I'm all about that.

You mentioned the Lauren Agee case, who you covered on your own podcast. What made you take that case?

The mom. So real persistent, very, very persistent mom. So Sherry Smith is hard to say no to. And she is dynamite. She just is fantastic. She obviously was treated poorly. And it's beyond poorly. It's despicable that we live in a state or she lives in a state where...

An investigation wasn't done and they've admitted it under oath and the state police have bypassed it and the governor hasn't looked at it. And it makes you wonder, can you go in Tennessee and get away with this? Did you see a little bit of yourself in her?

All of my moms have a little bit of persistence, a little bit. All of my moms have a heck of a lot of persistence. And the thing that I love about Sherry is she wants the truth and that's all she's asking. So think about this.

These families who come to me, they only want one thing. They want to know what happened to their loved one. And that's it. They're not looking to go after an organization or show corruption or how inadequate a situation is. They just want to know what happened to their daughter or their son the night they died. That's it. It sounds like they just want the truth, whether it's what they want to hear or not, good or bad.

And that's really the only way that they can get closure. Yes. And I will tell you, a couple of Thanksgivings ago, I had a couple of moms reach out to me. I told them I'd look at their cases. I couldn't take them. And they were designated as suicides.

And that's the time where I have to make the calls and say, you know what? I think it was suicide. That's tough. That's really tough. That was awful. Your podcast is called Without Warning, and that's also the name of your nonprofit? Correct. So I named it after I was sitting in court in the courtroom of Angie's trial.

And I did bring my oldest son with me. He sat in court with me every single day. And we were sitting there and I turned to him and I said, without warning, are everybody in here, our lives changed. That's really profound. And that seems to be the case for everyone who's met this kind of trauma and tragedy in their lives. It changed without warning and it changed without answers as well. And the fact that you have

have continued to listen to that calling, have responded to these mothers and these families looking for their loved ones. It's really incredible work that you're doing. I don't want to wrap things up just yet, but I do want to ask you, what are you maybe, for lack of a better term, looking forward to as far as cases that are developing or things that you find encouraging? Because this work has got to be pretty dark at times. Yeah.

Yes. To be very honest, the work sucks because it is a constant battle. Every day I get up, I know I'm going to be turned down. Families are going to be disappointed and scary things happen. So everybody's wondering, well, why do you do it?

Because when you get a win and they're few and far between, they're big wins. And I used to call Sherry Smith and say, we had a good day today because we didn't have very many of those. And then some days I was like, we had a really bad day. So, and it's we, the families are along with me on everything. And

With a couple of my cases, I have one in Texas. We have a fantastic female judge who's following the law and making sure people do the right thing. We have a city though, that is not doing the right thing. Coppell, Texas has the key to whether or not this young man was murdered and they have fought us every step of the way, but this judge isn't having it.

And so we're about to get results from a test that'll tell whether or not we are right. And we've spent many, many hours trying to get them just to do the right thing that should have been done five years ago. So what do I look forward to?

I look forward to my family and coming home to my puppies. I can totally relate to that. I'm sure also when you meet someone who is helpful to the case or who's on your side and supporting the hard work that you're doing, that's got to be a glimmer of hope in something that could otherwise be so dark and challenging to deal with just on a human level.

Right. And understand, I love what I do. I love helping these families and I love those small wins and a small win, maybe a witness called and gave us a small piece of the puzzle and I can call the mom and say, Hey, this is what happened. So, I mean, I wouldn't do it if I really wouldn't do it. If I didn't love it. I sometimes question myself on the sanity of doing it. Yeah.

I'm trying to imagine what that feels like, and all I can do is just appreciate it. I know that I'll never be in your shoes. I certainly don't have the grit for it or the sparkle for it, but just to be able to sit up to a mic and to hear your story, hear Angie's story, and all the work that you're doing is just so inspiring to me. Thank you. Is there anything that you wanted to share with my audience that I didn't touch upon? I...

Probably to be involved. Don't sit behind your computer and think you can't do something to help a family resolve a case, whether it's writing a letter to the governor or listening to a podcast and commenting. Just be involved. It's so important as a society to do the right thing. I love a good call to action. Participate.

Listen, be involved. I mean, I know that true crime is having a moment right now, but it's truly led to some incredible breaks in cases, at least from my perspective as a listener and a creator. And it's so cool to see it all evolving in this very connected world. And it's happening in real time. And the fact that we're able to follow some of these cases on a podcast and see the resolution come to light is just it's really neat to bear witness to.

Well, and I'm speaking at an event called The Power of Podcasting, How It's Changing Investigations. So think about that. You know, you have a voice to your listeners. You can talk to one. You've got her ear or his ear, and they may know something. Is there anything you wanted to leave us with? Maybe something funny or something nice?

So my life is so not like other people's lives. I'm so engrossed in my cases. I don't know what's going on in the real world. I will tell you this. One thing I will tell you. So I have a group of investigators that I share a lot of time with.

And we get together and have a ball because we all are in the same situation. We're all working these cases and we probably have very dark sense of humor. So if you see us out saying something inappropriate, I'm sorry, but it's the only way we can, you know, blow steam. And there's one other female and the other

five, let's see, five or six of us are, I can't even remember how many there are. We, we traveled together. We work cases together. We did culpable together. Um, and that is the highlight of, you know, outside of my family that I enjoy the most is being with these other professional investigators that have the same heart as my, um, as I do.

I love that so much. I think I became an even bigger fan of yours through this conversation today. You're so sweet. I needed that today. Oh, good. I'm so glad to hear. I'm so inspired by what you do, and I'm just so grateful that you said yes. So thank you for coming on my little show.

Well, I appreciate it. Sheila, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. Where can people find you online? Where can they follow your current cases and get involved? Go ahead and plug your social media and your show. Of course. So I have Without Warning podcast. Your audience can go to Facebook, Without Warning Private Investigations.

That's Facebook. And then I have Twitter and my Twitter is at ScrappyMomPI. And then that's an old one I refused to change. Oh, never change it. Yeah. Well, Instagram is WithoutWarningPI. So you can find me there. Perfect. Thank you so much, Sheila. I hope you have a stellar rest of your day. And thank you so much for the work that you're doing. Thank you. Thank you.

I was so blown away by this interview. I was just so excited to be able to talk about the work that got Sheila started on this journey into solving crime. And I hope it got you excited too. Ever since I heard her story, she's been somebody that I looked up to. If you loved this interview, let me know. Share it with your friends. Sheila's already agreed to come back on Murder, She Told in the future. Maybe she'll be a recurring guest and I can take some listener questions for next time.

Check out her show, Without Warning, and the incredible work that she's doing. And as always, you can connect with the show at MurderSheTold.com and on Instagram at MurderSheToldPodcast. I'll be back next week with a very special episode. Thank you so much for listening. I'm sending my Aunt Tina money directly to her bank account in the Philippines with Western Union. She's the self-proclaimed bingo queen of Manila, and I know better to interrupt her on bingo night, even to pick up cash. Hey!

Sending money direct to her bank account is super fast, and Aunt Tina gets more time to be the bingo queen. Western Union. Send money in-store directly to their bank accounts in the Philippines. Services offered by Western Union Financial Services, Inc., NMLS number 906983, or Western Union International Services, LLC, NMLS number 906985. Licensed as money transmitters by the New York State Department of Financial Services. See terms for details.