17 | Picasso Baby | For Real, For Real
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I think you should know, black is beautiful.

From Wondery, this is Black History For Real, where we chronicle the stories of the movers and shakers throughout Black history all around the world. These stories will educate you and more often than not, leave you shaking your damn heads. I'm Francesca Ramsey. And I'm Conscious Lee. And today we're doing a special in-studio, in-person edition of Black History For Real.

for real. - We are gonna be talking about art today. And a lot of artists, this is my version of a segue, have been put in the different boxes, especially black artists. But we do know some like Basquiat, for example, who really kind of created his own style and did a lot of mixed media and things.

But one artist that I think a lot of people might not associate with Black art is Pablo Picasso, and there has been some conversation about who inspired his Cubist style. Turns out, it was us. Turns out.

Turns out that Mr. Picasso was a big beneficiary of Spanish colonialism in Africa. And what you know, the colonizers, they ain't really respect the cultural, you know what I'm saying, boom, boom, boom. So it was like, there's a standing reserve of all these art ideas. I'm gonna borrow a couple. - Yeah, and it's so funny because I like his work. I'm a fan. I like stuff that has more of an abstract feel and I love stuff with faces.

I personally hadn't made the connection until I saw the research that we were doing for this episode. And when you see, like, his work compared to, like, masks and things like that, you can see that there's a lot of borrowing going on. Listen, it's so, it's kind of obvious, right? Yeah, I'm about to say, I feel like it's obvious, but I think that when you factor in historical context of, like, the scramble of Africa. Mm-hmm.

And how resources are seen as being like up for the whims of the world. Right. I think it also shows that like the art we're seeing is like a natural resource. Yeah. No, it's totally true. I mean, if you're being even honest, thinking about museums, right? Like how many empires, how many museums were built on the backs of stolen artwork?

whether it be from Africa or around the world. So it's not unreasonable to then see that people are borrowing from our styles elsewhere. I guess the question here is, is do you think that Picasso should...

Not necessarily. I mean, he's not here anymore, so he's not going to be able to physically give us anything back. But like, should more be done to actually spotlight the artist that he was borrowing from? Because again, I had not heard this up until now. I mean, the legacy of Picasso and the estate of Picasso is one that still exists. See what I'm saying? They're still beneficiaries of Picasso's art.

You know, there's still individuals that's able to benefit off the selling of the art and the license of the art. So there is some way to rectify materially what has happened, especially if you can acknowledge that person A stole from person B and gave it to person C, so should person C give it back? It's like, ethically, yeah. You know what I mean? Just like, cut us a check. Just like a little percentage maybe to give back.

I mean, I think that this could be a really good opportunity. Kind of you mentioned like the Picasso estate. Maybe they should be donating money to art programs. I mean, there's so many schools that the art programs are being decimated. This would be a really great opportunity. I have a little saying, instead of an empty apology, write a check. So,

I like that. You know, don't tell us, you know, we're really sorry that this is what happened. Give us some money. Show me, huh? And I think, again, the art programs would be a really great way to do that. Or like doing special scholarships, right? For kids who maybe want to go to art school and can't afford it or do art programs in the summer. Like sponsor those things from the Picasso estate. I think that would be really beautiful.

Definitely, especially when we start to steer more historical context in it. It's like this, the Cubism movement is accredited to Picasso and, you know, another, you know what I'm saying, person of colonial descent. And it's like it's given credit for saying they created this revolutionary movement in the early 1900s. And, you know, my question would be, given how we're talking about right now,

how much do you think the curriculum should be rectified in terms of teaching about the inspiration or the bar? 1,000% should be updated to reflect that. And look, we talked about this before. Safe space. I am from Florida and

- When it comes to Florida education, they really try it and they are actively working to remove Black history from the curriculum. And I think this is a perfect example where folks don't actually understand how much we have contributed to society

because of this erasing of history. So I definitely think we need to work that back in, and especially because when we talk about Black art and Black inventions, it's seen, especially art from Africa, it's seen as primitive or lesser than or not as...

technical, but then when somebody else does it, again, we're repeating ourselves a number of times we've said this, but it absolutely should give credit where credit is due. - I think that's the uniqueness though of the art community talking about Picasso, because the argument goes, okay,

Did he, was he inspired by this and then took it to another level or was it just boring? For me, it's just like, that's a very semantic, like, you know what I'm saying? Distinction. But I feel like that's, that's, that's one of the reasons why it's such a complex question to ask. It's Picasso, old black people. So when you ask the question, it's like a very, a lot of things you got to take into account. Well, I also think,

I also think it's a matter of like when you think about appreciation and appropriation, it's giving credit where credit is due and then also using your position to like uplift other people. And for example, Andy Warhol was really instrumental in helping Basquiat's work get more visibility. Now, of course, he was able to get visibility too, but I appreciate the fact that he was like, okay, I'm going to share the spotlight and like open doors for other people.

And I kind of wish that that had happened here because, again, it clearly was not common knowledge. He tried. Listen, he tried. So in terms of cultural appropriation and cultural appreciation, in the beginning, Picasso was kept at a stack and was like, yes, I was inspired by those Africans. He started to proliferate and blow up. And he was like, no, I wouldn't actually like that. Oh, yeah.

So do you think like, you know, like how, what would be your analysis of appreciation versus appropriation in this context? Yeah. I mean, I definitely think of appropriation as you're borrowing something, you're not giving credit and you're taking all of the shine from it.

for it, so to speak, versus appreciation, meaning that you actually give credit where it's due. And again, I think using your platform to uplift other artists in this respect would be great, and collaborating with them rather than taking the spotlight. So yeah, it definitely sounds like he started

doing it the right way and then didn't want to, you know, spread the wealth, so to speak. Yeah, he got drunk with power and influence. You know what I'm saying? And you get drunk with power and influence, the first thing you throw out is the... Morals. The morals and morals specifically tied to giving credit to Black people. Yeah, absolutely. Right.

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$45 up front for three months plus taxes and fees. Promo rate for new customers for a limited time. Unlimited more than 40 gigabytes per month. Slows. Full terms at mintmobile.com. Okay, I have a question for you. If black art did not exist, what do you think would be the repercussions through the United States, but also the entire world, especially when it comes to the arts, music, fashion, visual arts, etc.?

Where do you think we would be? We the sauce, baby. We the seasoning. Think about it. There is no way to talk about the impact that Western art has had on the world without talking about a Picasso. Picasso literally would not exist if it wasn't for his exposure to African art. And colonialism. Colonialism. Colonialism is just so seeped in there. It was a trick question. I mean, I knew the answer. It wouldn't exist.

But I think it's important to really contextualize how deep it is because it's not just like Serpents like, no, it wouldn't exist. But it's thinking about now politically, socially, economically, a lot of Western culture springboards off of like African presence, off of black presence. And it's not usually giving it, you know what I'm saying, giving credit. And like our wealth and our riches, like people using our knowledge and our creative skills

the well of creativity in order to boost themselves up. You know, again, Picasso is a perfect example where he was inspired, but then he's able to then go off and have this illustrious career. Whereas do the artists that he was inspired by, do they get the profit?

Or is there work in a museum somewhere that the museum is able to collect funds off of, but the actual artist is not? Or they're just an unknown, an unnamed African artist did this thing? That's how it happens, though. I was first exposed to this type of history when I was in college. And I learned about how a lot of the higher form fashion companies and they, you know, different...

trademarks or they different, you know what I'm saying, signs, how a lot of them can be seen coming from Africa. May it be like a Defendi sign or the Louis Vuitton sign or, you know what I'm saying, these different designs, recognizing it. And then I started to do the research and really go down that rabbit hole of like,

Oh, yeah. There was also like a few years where there were so many designers using like kente cloths and like wax print fabrics and stuff where they were like very clearly inspired by versus actually working with local artisans. So you're right. That's been happening since the dawn of time. So, yeah.

African art was brought to Europe through imperialism. And until Picasso was able to stumble across this art, it really wasn't valued. It was undervalued, actually. So the question becomes, what is other things you can think about that was undervalued until white Americans said, ha, no.

I mean, there's so many examples, but I think most recently I really think about AAVE and it being called Gen Z slang. It's wild hearing young people use slang that I grew up hearing and/or was often told not to use. You know, I went to Catholic school and my parents were really strict about the way that I spoke. And there was this, "You must speak this way because this is the way that you're going to get ahead." And I remember going to camp and

you know, come back and be like, "Yeah, it was good." And my parents were like, "Don't talk like that." And it was really, again, stigmatized versus now. You know, I think about Miss Ariana Grande and all the different voices that she has had over the course of her career. She's like a little ventriloquist. Who is that brown girl? She says all sorts of things that I'm like, "Now, she's from South Florida." And I know she did not grow up speaking that way, but it's become so commonplace

But it's attributed to everybody but Black people. And it's a way to seem authentic and relatable. And yeah, I'm sure you have a whole list. I definitely got a whole list. And the first things that came to mind, I feel like it would sound like crazy, me being like a sister in the man, being like lips, tits, and ass. And it's like, in my mind, that was something that was undervalued until, you know, a particular demographic came across and it was like,

i've arrived i know i got made fun of for my lips all of the time uh uh uh biker braids you know uh bonnie oh now that has been so interesting watching white girls wearing bonnets on tick tock and it really felt like because they saw a bunch of black girls wearing bonnets and blowing up suddenly they were wearing them too yeah which it's like look

using a silk cap or a silk pillowcase has benefits for everybody. But again, it was that whole conversation. Remember, it was like, ladies, don't go to the airport in your bonnet. I'm not going to say who said it, but there was this conversation of, sweet babies, you look, you know, you look low class when you're doing this. And now it's become almost like a status symbol. And I've seen white hair care brands selling their own version of a bonnet. Yeah. It's like, yeah.

this is like we're in the upside down. Yeah, I feel like one could argue that it's kind of like fundamental to the Western world being able to steal things from people of African descent and from Africa itself and it's just cool. I think that's the reason why it's hard for the art community and for art history to rectify this because it's so normalized. Yeah. Like it's really woven into the fabric. It's the foundation of

our museums. I mean, it's so much stuff. You know, like the scene in Black Panther when Killmonger is looking in the art, like the gallery, you're like, I mean, he's kind of right. It's kind of, but it's just like, right, but we seen as being crazy or Black history for real is seen as being like the bear of bad news or party poopers because how dare you try to make us return something or to be like, you guys lost.

You lost it, you lost it, and you get over it. And it's like, you ain't got that same energy in a particular place. I ain't going to say where, but we know where, guys. Yeah. Well, and like, even just using the word lost, I feel like that is so coded. It's like lost or stolen. Those are two very different things. Another thing that I thought of is nail art. Remember when Flojo had like the long nails? They were giving her so much shit over those nails. And now

It's, again, a status symbol, and people are getting all sorts of artwork on there and wearing long nails and getting them done all the time. And that was seen as ghetto, right? Ghetto. And speaking of ghetto...

We know that black women was redoing the hell out of jerseys and all type of professional, you know what I'm saying, sports stuff. I just saw some girl got a license for that, right? Oh, listen, she, hey, I ain't even, I wouldn't be a hater. Shout out to her. I'm all for, you know what I'm saying, women being able to get into spaces that they usually don't have access to. But I think it's something to be said about how the whole culture in the early 2000s was being, I feel like, you know, chastised. Mm-hmm.

And it was seen as being like ghetto, nasty, you feel me, dirty, or being like, ah, that's cheap. Now it's like this person, this, this, this. Now, of course, her husband, you feel me, playing the NFL. So I think they kind of played into it as well. Yeah, of course. But, you know, I can't help but to think about. But the streetwear thing was happening long before she did it. And again, I think in the appreciation appropriation thing, even if it was, and I don't know this girl, so maybe she has said this, but sometimes just giving credit where it's due and saying, look, I'm not the first. Yeah.

I was inspired by this person. I am inspired by this person. That goes a long way. A long way. Because what ends up happening is they get exalted as revolutionary and we're sitting here going, the girls have been wearing jersey dresses forever or sneakers with dresses or whatever it might be. Yeah. It's just...

Picasso, I almost even been Picasso, but really. - Yeah, maybe we should start saying that to Columbus. You got Picasso'd. - You got Picasso'd. So if it's artistic, say Picasso'd. You know what I'm saying? If it's non-artistic, you got Columbus'd. We gotta keep the language always evolving because languages get appropriated as well too. - I love that.

Hey, well enough about Pablo Picasso. I see you like painting yourself. I was able to catch some of the canvases. The streets have been very upset about me painting my apartment, but yes, I have painted every wall of my apartment. I found it to be really cathartic. But yeah, this idea that I was defacing my apartment, which I think ties in very nicely here because the white girlies be painting their apartment.

And I don't see anybody accusing them of defacing their apartments. But yeah, with mine, people were upset. Well, you blacks love to graffiti. That's what I heard. I know. All these people on the internet explaining to me what was in my lease.

I'm curious, actually. Before we get back into the art, you know what I'm saying? Landlord had an issue with that? Did it hit you up? No, my lease... Listen, my apartment has become the latest part of my brand. This was not intentional. I didn't know that this would happen. But my lease does say I can paint. Fret not. I just have a...

I've just accepted that I'm probably not going to get my deposit back because I'm not going to paint it. I'm not leaving anytime soon, but I'm allowed to paint. Yeah, so what specific artist inspired you to deface your apartment this way? What artist made you be like, you know what? This shit cool, but...

What if we add a little bit more pizzazz and paint to it? I feel like it is really stereotypical to mention Basquiat, but I love the way that he uses color. And I really like that his work is very layered and has all of these hand-drawn elements, but also branded elements. And I was a graphic designer before I worked in TV. And so I love that type of stuff. And I love things that just feel...

Like, they were done by hand, which is why I went the route of, like, doing murals instead of, like, doing wallpaper, for example, or even buying, like, decals. I like the idea of, like, oh, you can tell someone did this, you know, by hand. So that's the type of stuff I really love. Oh, okay. So Picasso didn't...

I mean, I do also really like cubist stuff. I love shapes and I love abstraction. And so honestly, that's why when we were doing this research, I was pretty blown away because this was new information to me. And I went to art school. I went to art school.

I took art history, I took history of graphic design. I'm pretty familiar with a lot of, like I love Mondrian, which is also like a very cubist style, color blocks, I love stuff like that. - What's that again? - Mondrian. - Mondrian. - Yeah, so he does-- - You sound fancy, man. You sound good.

He does a lot of different squares and rectangles, but it's all big blocks of color. And his style is kind of how one of the building blocks of graphic design, learning how to lay things out and hierarchy and stuff like that. So I really like, I just like things that take up space. I don't know, maybe it's also part of my personality, the Sag in me. Is that the Sag thing? Let's unpackage this. Why do you like taking up space?

I think taking up space for me has been a way to combat my imposter syndrome, a way for me to say that, like, when I feel insecure, I kind of counteract that. And so that comes out through my fashion, through the way that I express myself, through my home. I like things that are bold, right?

in that way and I feel like again it's a way for me to counterbalance maybe the parts of myself that I don't necessarily feel as confident about yeah okay that is that is

Black history for real to me is be about our negotiation and how we take up space because sometimes you feel me how we survive can be predicated on how much space we take up or not take up so thinking about like art in a way to be like yeah I did this artistic thing because I want to take up some space to me I feel like it's very it's deep

in a way that it's like, it's a lot to unpackage to me uniquely on how black people, particularly black women, are positioned in being like, hey, you better cut up. You better cut something off. You're taking too much space. You...

- Yeah, no, I love it. I feel like you're totally spot on when it comes to black people and I'll go to the next level and say as black women specifically, fashion and beauty and hair are seen as like frivolous things. Like, oh, if you're interested in that, then you are being superficial. When in reality, like the way that we express ourselves through our hair, our nails, our makeup, our clothes, all of that stuff, it's a way to introduce ourselves to the world

And for me, it's a way to connect with people. I love, there's nothing like getting a compliment from a black woman. Okay, shoes. You're like, oh my God, I can go home. Like I did it.

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♪ Black is beautiful ♪ - Sadly, in the year that we in, black hair and the politicizing of black hair is still a topic that we have to deal with. You know, you know,

Even though many of us is, you feel me, pathologized, criminalized, excluded from professional areas for wearing out here. There are certain people that get, you feel me, valorized or get credit for doing it. You know what I'm saying? Shout out to Travis Kelsey was the first person I seen that was like, y'all ain't playing with my name in black history. I know. He said, I got it. He said, I'm not the first

one to have a fade and I will not be the last. Y'all are not finna have my black friends on my helmet today. I will not be, I will not do me like this. You know what I'm saying? So, you know, I think we need to not only stop the cap when it comes to like the appropriation of black hair, but really unpackage how there are still people right now in the status quo right now. There's a student in Texas, 17 years old.

He has locks. Wait, is this the one that was told he couldn't graduate? Right now, he's still, yeah. Right, yeah, him. But still, right now, literally...

The state of Texas cares more about the hair on his head and the information going to his head than the guns at his head. You know what I'm saying? So it's like, well, y'all know how to ban stuff. Y'all know how to, you know what I mean? And then the crazy part about it is we had legislation to protect the Crown Act. A judge decided that what the school district was doing to him said that it doesn't violate any Crown Acts. So I think it's just something to, yeah, really, what's your thoughts on that? Yeah.

It's so interesting. So, you know, I had locs for 15 years. I cut my hair in 2018. And it's been really interesting for me to see how the perception that I enjoy or experience has changed

because of my hair. So that's been really interesting for me. And it's so disappointing to see that here we are in 2024 and we're still having to squabble over, this is the natural way that this comes out of this person's head. But I also did feel like while I knew I wanted to cut my hair for personal reasons, I also had this feeling of, oh, I'm so glad when I go on set, I'm not going to have to worry about

them being able to do my hair because that continued to be a challenge for me. And so it's frustrating that young people are being put in this position where they're having to make a choice if they want to be successful, that they successful, quote unquote, or they want to look more professional. And even when I had locks, that was like a big part of the content that I was making was showing young women that they could do all different types of cool things with their hairstyles, with their hair, because oftentimes it...

I got the idea of like, you're not going to be able to get a job if you have your hair like that. And it's like, no, I can put my hair up in a bun. I can do updos. I can do all sorts of cool things. But there are still so many people that don't have access to that, which is how you get these situations where a young man is being told you need to cut your hair in order to walk in your graduation when his hair is not prohibiting him from being smart or even wearing the freaking cap.

put some bobby pins in there and you go yeah yeah yeah well today's today's lesson we're gonna be exploring braids here yeah let's get into some black history for real so as many of you probably already know braids can be traced back to africa all the way back to 3500 bc in many african tribes these braids were used to distinguish who is who in the tribe and there was also like a social uh aspect

because the braids would take so long to do. - There's also a natural protective hairstyle as well that allowed for a lot of West African, East African tribes to be able to actually protect the hair in the sun and be able to protect the hair when moving around. - Yeah, and there was like status symbol too, right? - Yeah, status symbol. - What tribe you're in, but like wealth, marital status,

Yeah, it was a way to communicate more than just, you know, okay, this is a style that I'm wearing because I like how it looks. It was very personal in that respect. Yeah, the thing that blew my mind is that when I was in college, I learned about how a lot of our enslaved ancestors would use their braids. Oh, yeah, they put like maps and like... Not only that, before they even got to escaping the plantation, that a lot of them had brought over seeds.

from the old world to the new world. So like the okra seeds, some historians argue that the okra seeds was most likely brought on a boat, you feel me? And somebody's hair, you know what I'm saying? And just thinking about how there are different fruits and vegetables that's more germane over in Africa and how they got brought over to the new world and recognizing that, you know,

human trafficking and the seeds came with it. And then you get to the plantation and recognizing that, you know, there was sometimes how enslaved people would communicate with each other and, you know, like put a map, you know what I'm saying, or put, you know, the directions on how we're getting X, Y, and Z. Yeah, like when you're seeing those cornrow patterns, some of those patterns had very specific meanings in, like you're mentioning, with directions, which is why it's so frustrating when people appropriate those hairstyles and then they say like, oh, no, no, no,

Oh, no, no, no, no, but they're just braids. It's like, but they're not just braids. All in a Kool-Aid. Don't even know the flavor of it. Like, you, it's yes. Yes.

Why do you think, again, this is kind of related to what we were talking about before, but when it comes to hair specifically, why do you think there's such this big push to move, to pull away the cultural significance when it comes to our hairstyles? Because oftentimes you'll have people say, why are we still talking about hair? This is, haven't we moved past this? But like, do you think that it still deserves a second look in that respect? Like,

Is there still more for us to learn and appreciate and respect when it comes to the conversation around hair in the Black community? Yeah, definitely. And earlier we were talking about Picasso. I was talking about like having the sauce. I think that or like, you know, having a season. I would say when it comes to like hair, a lot of times we'd be losing recipes.

You feel me? I feel like growing up how I grew up, my little sisters and my mama and my grandma and them grew up as in I felt like it would be time to build community and time to have intimacy when you was getting your hair braided and recognizing that it was something that you really picked up on very early. I will argue now the way that the braids get appropriated and the ways that it gets weaponized in a professional sense make it where certain people are discouraged

from teaching how to braid, from, you know what I'm saying, getting all the way into it. So it make you feel like, you know, we losing recipes. - Well, the other thing that I think about when I had Lox, I remember that the stylist that I went to, she almost had her shop shut down because she wasn't licensed. Meanwhile, when you go to hair school, they weren't teaching you natural hairstyling techniques.

So it's like, go to school and spend this money in order to get licensed so that you can legally have a hair shop. Meanwhile, all the things that you're learning in school are not helping. They're not doing anything to help with the textures that she's working with. And again, it's that trickle down of then you're on set and oftentimes there are people who have never worked with natural hair. They've never worked with black hair before. They don't know how to...

do color on our hair or any of the processing or how heat interacts with our hair. And then the standard is, yeah, but I've got my licensure. I know how to do hair. It's like, yeah, but you don't know how to do all hair textures. And so I'm thankful that we're getting to a place where those things are being spoken about, but like we're, we still have a really, really long ways to go. And that's something that I've been really frustrated with

when I've gone to set. And shout out to us because we definitely had a barber on set, which I don't know that I've ever seen that on set. That must have been your rider. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, do you remember when...

Kim Kardashian and the Kardashianas found themselves in cultural appropriation business. They have. It's been a couple of times, but the one I'm talking about specifically when it comes to the braids. Oh, yeah. I think you already said it, but I think Kim was calling them boxer braids when she had them. I don't know. I'm going to say allegedly because I don't want to put it. I feel like it might have been a different person. It was one of them. I will also add that Kylie, on the topic of

braids and hair, Kylie was really trying to say that she was putting people on the map wearing wigs and lace fronts.

and doing different color hair. So again, it's that thing of like, when we do it, it's ghetto, but when they do it, it's pushing the boundaries of fashion and, you know, oh, look, I'm doing this protective style. And even just the idea of like, when we talk about weaves versus extensions, right? Like, it's such coded language that we use weaves when talking about Black women and extensions when talking about white women, right?

And listen, don't play with us contrarians. We're talking about cultural appropriation and we're talking about it in the context of hair. There will be somebody that's going to be purposely obtuse and say, well, y'all black people culturally appropriate our hair because you wear a weave.

Samantha, nobody wearing weave from Idaho or Utah. You see what I'm saying? The bundles don't come from Montana. So when we start talking about cultural appropriation and we're talking about the context of hair, you're not as clever as you think you is. Well, and I think to drill down on that also, to remove the idea of what cultural means. Having straight hair is not something that is exclusive to one group of people.

Again, similarly, braids are not exclusive to one culture of people. But when you talk about cornrows specifically, that's something that we developed. And then it's also thinking about assimilation versus appropriation. When someone who has naturally kinky hair is wearing a weave or...

getting extensions or straightening their hair or wearing a wig, they're doing it in order to assimilate because we've been told our natural hair is unprofessional and you can't wear it this way. So again, to your point, it's like you're being contrarian and you're not actually like, let's look at the facts, okay? No one is saying...

that straight hair is unprofessional. No one is saying, we developed straight hair. We invented this. And it also does not have the same cultural significance, especially for us when it comes to natural hair. A world that has always told us our natural hair and our blackness is ugly and unprofessional. And it's a P word that I'm thinking of that I haven't introduced to this conversation about cultural appropriation, but it's power.

And the conversation about power is one that is usually mystified because people want to be like, culture is culture is culture. Culture is sharing is culture is sharing is culture is sharing. And it's like, yeah, whether we're talking about Picasso or we're talking about Kim Kardashian, the power dynamics and visibility is something different.

Who gets to profit off of it? So with that being said, it's like, hey, this conversation is one that's important because it always pops out throughout Black history and one that I see moving forward that we're going to continue to have to talk about because it's like a part of Western culture. Yeah.

steal, and appropriate, extract, exploit Blackness, Black people. Yeah, because ultimately, if we were all able to profit off of it, it would be a different conversation. We wouldn't be saying you're appropriating. We would say we're all sharing in the wealth. Yes, you are appreciating, but it's not like that. And so it's ridiculous to suggest that it is that way when we know you

You gave the example of the young man in Texas. Or, you know, there was a few years ago, there was a newscaster who had her natural hair and she was getting death threats. Definitely. And she lost her job because she dared to clap back.

And it's like, you clap back at people being racist and sexist towards you and didn't do it in the quote unquote professional way instead of actually having the conversation about why is she being demonized for wearing her natural hair. So again, if she then decided, I don't know what she decided to do, but if she then went and decided to straighten her hair, she's not appropriating white hair. Right.

Let me ask you this. I love when I start seeing you smile as I know something is coming. Let me ask you this. So you know there is a very controversial topic about white people wearing locks. Oh, yeah. And I'm asking you two questions. Okay. The first question I'm going to ask is, what are your thoughts about how that discourse happens, specifically on social media? And then what are your personal thoughts? Okay.

Don't get yourself in no trouble. Yeah, okay. What's your personal thoughts? The discourse of it all, I feel like it's often brought up as like a disingenuous thing. Like I don't think people actually really care. I think it's a lot of like devil's advocate where it's like, well, well, well. It's like you don't actually care. On the personal level,

I personally don't care how anybody else does their hair. I'm more concerned with Black people being given the freedom to be who they are. And when that happens, I can understand people being less annoyed or upset about what white people are doing with their hair. Because real talk, the Grinch fingers are never going to look as good as what we are doing. So I'm not really concerned. Like, I'm really not. Call it whatever you want. It's not—it don't look right to me,

Do what you're going to do. But I ain't the adjudicator of looks, you feel me? Because I don't like it. I mean, it don't look good. Right, exactly. Do what you're going to do. I'm not worried about what they're doing. I'm worried about the young man who's not going to be able to, you know, walk in his graduation. I'm more concerned about that. And so, again, that's not to say that people don't have a right to be frustrated when they see white people getting put on for doing our hairstyles. But personally speaking, I'm not worrying about it.

So you don't think the Vikings should be giving credit for locks? No, no, absolutely not. Absolutely not. I'm sure that their hair was matted in a way, but it's not. Here's the thing. If you look at the amount of manipulation that you have to do to white people's hair in order to get their hair to lock up, that tells you right there that it's not the same.

Because when you coil our hair and you just leave it, naturally, it will start to lock up. You're not having to put peanut butter and doing backcombing and doing all this other... You don't need to do all that stuff. And putting wax in it. This is our hair's natural coil pattern that just starts to curl onto itself. So again...

I think people are being real disingenuous when they say, "Well, the Vikings were doing it." The way that you have to manipulate your hair in order to get that result tells me that it is not a natural process for you. But again, do what you're going to do. I'm not worried about it. What about you? I'm going to turn around on you because similarly,

I think there was like a viral video where some girl started fighting a guy who had a lot, a white guy that had dreadlocks of some sort. And people were sharing it and they were like, look at this. He's being attacked for this. And I'm always of the mind, like, I don't think you should put your hands on anybody. But I also, to me, people were sharing it with me and being like, this is what you created. You created this situation. Say something about this. I am not told.

You really care about oppression? Say something about this. If you don't, then you're an oppressor. Right. I have not told anybody to put their hands on anybody else. That's not my vibe. But I also will say that how other people are entitled to feel however they want, and I'm not responsible for how they feel. That's how I feel, too. I'm only responsible for how I behave.

And in my mind, I'm not going to, my blood pressure is not going to spike when I see a white person. I got my opinions about, you know, how I think you look, but I ain't going to trick myself, you know what I'm saying, into thinking I'm more important than I really am. I don't think my opinions hold much weight with how somebody else has their hair.

I am very mindful though of how other black people feel, especially when you think about how this young man, you know what I'm saying, last name George, and I think Mount, like in the Houston area in Texas, is like, he's wearing locks and he's being, you feel him, consequences and repercussions is being taken upon him. And this is how his hair grows. You're able to, you know what I'm saying, take it upon on some cross-cultural this, that, and the other. But again, for me, it's like, I got a whole bunch of fishes to fry. I ain't got a lot of grease, baby.

I ain't got a lot of grease. Well, one thing conscious does have is sayings. I'm not going to lie. What? Definitely. So I don't have enough grease to fry the fish of white people wearing locks. Right. It's like very low on the totem pole. It's very low on the totem pole. And there are much more material reality, much more material implications that deal with the black experience.

that, that, that, that, that, that really like impact people eating sleep for dinner, people, this, that, and the other. Like if your feelings and your emotions are so tied into that, maybe you should really think about how much power you give into white people, white supremacy into that particular aesthetic. But you know what I'm saying? That's, that's, that's, that's kind of how I see it. Yeah. I mean, I could imagine, especially for black people who are dealing with

you know, being stigmatized in the workplace, HR is getting on your ass about your hair. I could imagine that, like, then it's really annoying when you then see a white person on a runway. And you're like, man, what? You know, and you're like...

I got flagged at HR again, you know what I mean? - I lost my job and you got one. - Right. - For saying things. - Exactly, so I could see people having those feelings. - Yeah, I get that. - But again, for me, it's not something I think about. My thing that I'm really passionate about right now is making sure that more black hairstylists have access to film and TV sets.

Because so often folks will be clowning actors and actresses because their hair doesn't look right on screen. And I'm like, I know it's not their fault. I know it's not their fault. And the barriers, the hoops that you have to jump through in order to get accredited

Unfortunately, a lot of Black folks don't have access to that. You have to have a certain amount of hours on set before you even qualify to join the union. But then how do you get a job on set? You got to know somebody. If you don't know somebody who already has a job in the industry, you're completely locked out. And that's not to say that we don't have talented Black hairstylists, talented Black makeup artists. But if they don't get the same access...

then no, they're completely barred from the industry. - It made me think about one of my more successful YouTube videos I made about who gets to own the companies in the Black community when it comes to hair. And when I did my research, I found that there was legislation that happened in the 1960s

that ushered in the Civil Rights Act and ushered in like integration. But then the Immigration Act of like 1965 was able to make it where particular, you know what I'm saying, people were able to corner the market on

doing black hair specifically. So even outside of Hollywood, the industry, when you have black women that want, or black people, any black people just general want to set up shop in terms of black hair, that they're not given access to, you know what I'm saying? A lot of different resources and a lot of different, you know, loans, a lot of different literal types of hair. Yeah.

because it's like we don't want you to be able to get into this industry, you know what I'm saying? It's a great video entitled Why There Are So Many Asian-Owned Businesses in the Black Community, and specifically when it comes to hair. I actually was able to interview this doctor, this Asian woman, it's a doctor at UCLA, and her family actually owned one of the,

One of the liquor stores that got attacked, you know what I'm saying, during the watch rise. So what I was able to find is that when you think about how, like, structurally and politically this hair thing came about, it's a whole bunch of things that tie into it in terms of, like, how this industry is shaped and how I think it was –

Korea, Vietnam, they had made it where they outlawed people being able to outsource the hair and made it where functionally they were able to make it where they're like, the only way you're able to get this hair unless you get it directly from them. You know what I'm saying? And it was just something very interesting. I think it was a very interesting conversation to have in terms of coalitions and solidarity building, you know, and it was really interesting topic because hair is something that is like a surface level. It seems like, wow.

But then it's like, nah, people are able to build generational wealth. People are able to literally experience upward mobility based off of the trends that happen in the Black community. And those people are usually not Black.

Yeah, I mean, I think it also just kind of speaks to like the theme of this show, right? Is that, you know, this one kernel of information, but then when you peel back, you realize there's so many different other cultural moments and historical moments that are tied to that one little thing that you think, oh, this is really trivial or frivolous. Or people say, like, why do you have to make everything about race? Sorry.

sorry, a lot of things you can trace back to oppression. Yeah. And it's still worth exploring it. We can do it. Everything will tie back the race. You know what I'm saying? Like the question is, how conscious are you of how it's implicated to race? But just because you don't understand or you don't know, don't mean it's not. Yeah.

Just because, exactly. I think about that all the time. Oftentimes people are like, well, I've never seen that happen. It doesn't mean that it hasn't happened. What? Well, I'm not experiencing hunger, so hunger doesn't exist. Like, ha! It's very self-centered. Yeah.

If you like Black History for Real, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.

Black History for Real is hosted by me, Francesca Ramsey. And me, Conscious Leap. Black History for Real is a production of Wondery and DCP Entertainment. The theme song is by Terrace Martin. For DCP Entertainment, associate producers are Quentin Hill, Brittany Temple, and Chris Colbert. The senior producer is Ryan Woodhall. Executive producers for DCP Entertainment are Adele Coleman and DJ Treesy Trees. For Wondery, Lindsey Gomez is the development producer.

The production coordinator is Desi Blaylock. Sophia Martins is our managing producer. Our producer is Matt Gant. Our senior story editor is Phyllis Fletcher. The executive producers for Wondery are Marshall Louie, Erin O'Flaherty, and Candice Maniquez-Wren.

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