8 | The Fall Off | The Talented Tenth
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Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Black History for Real early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Warning, today's episode is going to be extra seasoned, a little spicy even, because there is talk of a sexual nature. Please be advised. Hey, Francesca, you know what's been on my mind a lot lately? Hmm, but? The double-edged sword of the monies. I mean, look, it's nice to be booked and busy, but...

And money, unfortunately, is a necessary evil when it comes to living in a capitalist society. But...

I hear you. It's hard. It sucks to have to think about it so much as like a stressor and also something that you're working towards. It's just, it consumes every aspect of our lives. Something I think about a lot too is this idea that so many folks have been forced to turn their creative passions into jobs. And just when you start to monetize all of your creative pursuits as fantastic and what a

an eternal privilege it is to be able to make money off of your artwork, it kind of makes it hard because then it's like not fun anymore. And then like you have to take in the opinions of everybody else. You can't just create for artists sake. And it is truly such a double edged sword. And you know what? Today we're going to be talking about the struggle for support that affected the Harlem Renaissance artists and intellectuals and

how they had to hustle during lean times. W.E.B. Du Bois said Black people must support Black artists. He thought this would keep the art from being corrupted by white people. One of the things that continues to stand out to me as we have these conversations on the show is how many of these topics are resonating with things we're dealing with right now when we talk about Black artistry and who gets funded and who gets put on.

And what is seen as success as a black creative, but as a creative period, right? It's never going to surprise me when the establishment does not see black art as valid or profitable unless they're able to profit from it. A big unless.

consumption and the way that white audiences consume black art and how that impacts the survival and thriving of that black art and black artists is a conversation that I feel like we could do a whole entire series of. Oh, yeah. Right. But

Does getting white support make an artist a sellout? Like, I know it depends on who you talking to, but considering all the implications, one could ask the question, does getting white support make an artist a sellout? Either way, when your money is low, your relationships come into focus and people get in.

Who can you count on? County Cullen asked himself them questions time after time again. Let's get into some black history for real.

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County stands outside the door. Part of him wants to run down the two flights of stairs behind him. Even though he's the guest of honor, he's nervous. He doesn't want to talk about his botched marriage with Yolanda Du Bois. County closes his eyes, takes a deep breath, and joins the party. He moves through the crowd in a daze. He smiles and shakes hands with people he don't even know.

His friend, Richard Bruce Nugent, Harlem Renaissance painter and writer, breaks through the crowd. Bruce takes a fresh glass of champagne from someone's hand and gives it to Counting. Welcome home, Counting. They walk along the outer edges of the Persian carpets in the middle of the room. It's impossible to cut through the small circles of people chatting and laughing at him.

County wishes he could be as comfortable with himself as Bruce is. If Bruce wants to flirt with a guy, he does it. If Bruce wants to write about gay love, he does it. County doesn't think he's ever been that free or honest. County sees a photographer from the Amsterdam news over by the grand piano. His stomach flutters with nerves. He won't be relaxing tonight.

He has to be Reverend Frederick Cullen's son, Yolanda Du Bois' ex-husband. Someone respectable. Bruce stops walking. They've reached their destination. A small group of friends are sitting in a semi-private nook near one of the large windows overlooking Fifth Avenue. "'Where's your better half?' Alexander Gumby asks. He thrusts an open guestbook in County's face."

Harold will be here in an hour or so. You know, he likes to make an appearance, County says. Alex points to the Black Christ figure hanging on a cross in the upper right hand corner of the page. It's the Black Christ? In honor of your portrait book? He says, that's another failure, County, to snide. I want to talk about it.

County gives Alexander a little side eye. I understood the reference. As he signs his name in the guestbook. As County looks around, seeing all of his old friends, he thinks to himself, Paris was nice, but after two years away, damn, it feels good to be home.

County feels a sudden hand on his shoulder. It's Edward Perry, actor and reporter, also County's former lover. Edward whispers into his ear, "Let's go cut a rug, handsome." That's the last thing County wants. A picture of him with a man in his arms in the papers? It would ruin his career even more than the bad reviews of the Black Christ. Lenny's too tight these days to make a misstep.

County sees civil rights activist Walter White talking with someone against the book-lined wall near the door. He shoots Edward a fake smile and says, "Maybe later." County excuses himself to go join what promises to be a much less interesting conversation. Better safe than sorry, because County is on the brink of his worst nightmare, becoming the biggest failure of the Harlem Renaissance.

Black is beautiful.

For Wondery, this is Black History for Real, where we chronicle the stories of movers and shakers from Black history all over the world. The stories will inspire you, educate you, and more often than not, leave you shaking your damn heads. I'm Francesca Ramsey.

And I'm Conscious Lee. In this final episode of our four-part series of The Talented Tenth, we conclude the story of two men who exemplified the concept. Harlem Renaissance poet, County Cullen,

and sociologist and scholar W.E.B. Du Bois. Today we're talking about Cullen's struggle to bring his career back to life after the Great Depression sent white supporters running from Harlem. And we'll also be discussing Du Bois' newfound leftist politics that put him on the outs with black and white moderates alike. This is episode four, The Fall Out. ♪ Black is beautiful ♪

In 1929, County was still in the process of divorcing Yolanda Du Bois. His relationship with his father figure W.E.B. Du Bois was disintegrating. Du Bois calls the divorce a needless tragedy. He's lost a son.

County chooses to focus on what he can control to some degree, his career. He publishes his collection of poetry, The Black Christ, and other poems. It's a much more race-conscious work than County usually produces. In his 33-page poem, The Black Christ, he ties the violence Black people faced in America, especially lynchings, to the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

Sadly, County is late to the party with the comparison. Other Harlem Renaissance writers and Black intellectuals have made this connection, including Langston and Du Bois. He had spent his Guggenheim years in Paris working on a tired trope. Critics tear the work apart. They don't like the poetic techniques he uses, nor the imagery. The book is a flop. But things can always get worse. ♪

The Harlem Renaissance loses the white supporters when the Great Depression rolls in like a storm. Nobody feels this more than County. He courted white readers with his classical writing style by shying away from racing his poetry. But that strategy? Yeah, that strategy wouldn't save him in the end. When the stock market crashes in October, County doesn't have time to even recover. His career as a poet is over.

Without white folks money, all Harlem Renaissance writers suffer. Money was already tight. Whether you were a prize winning writer or not, can't eat a prize. In an interview with the Washington Post, writer Dorothy West painted a picture of how the Harlem Renaissance economy was before the Great White Flight.

That was the great sponge era. Downtown whites were more than generous. You opened your hand, it closed over a five spot, or you invited a crowd of people to your studio, charged them a mission, got your bootlegger to trust you for a gallon or two of gin, sold it at $50,000,

at 15 cents a paper cup and cleared enough from the evening's proceedings to pay your back rent and your bootlegger. There was usually sufficient money left to lay in a week's supply of liquor and some crackers and sardines. Hey, hold on, hold on, Fratisky. You know what that means, right? For me,

This really showed me that we really lived and living through like this little virtual black renaissance. And what they talked about is what us as a lot of black content creators experience 2021 to 2024.

Hey, white folks was extremely generous. White guilt was at an all time high. White generosity was at an all time high. Everybody had an insatiable hunger for a lot of little black content, little black perspective, little black. Now.

I guess a little depression, a little, you know what I'm saying? A little recession is rolling in. And, you know, one of the first things to go is, you know, the orientation towards blackness and black folks. So the dollar's been pulled. We're talking about white flight. It makes me think woke flight. Everybody was so excited to be woke in 2020. And now they're like, no, not anymore. Not really interested in talking about that stuff anymore. Langston Hughes said the depression was the end of the Harlem Renaissance.

The white people had much less money to spend on themselves and practically none to spend on Negroes. But the Depression brought everybody down a peg or two. And the Negroes had but a few pegs to fall.

As County frets over his career, Du Bois has bigger fish to fry. The stock market crash ramps up his interest in socialism and communism. He studies the works of Karl Marx more deeply. He wants to fine-tune the economic concept to address the racial inequalities that Black people face.

He's been talking about the negative impact of capitalism on Black people's progress. And Black progress weighs heavy on his mind as he prepares to debate white supremacist author Lotharp Stoddard.

It's almost 3 p.m. on St. Patrick's Day in Chicago. Nearly 5,000 people, black and white, pack a large hall on South Wabash Avenue. Hundreds more clamor to get in. They're all here to see W.E.B. Du Bois debate famed white supremacist and race war propagandist Lothrop Stoddard. The moderator brushes past Du Bois and onto the stage. Du Bois smiles to himself.

he would hardly call it a debate. Him, a great scholar and intellectual versus the high priest of racial baloney. This isn't even close to being a fair match. You got to remember, Du Bois was the king of beef. He was kind of a light-skinned, college-educated, bourgeoisie 50 cent of his time. Petty. If Booker T. Washington was a ribeye and Marcus Garvey was porterhouse, he was ready to make ground beef out of this.

If Du Bois was being honest with himself, though, he would have to admit that Stoddard got him a little tight. Stoddard had written that it was mulattos like Du Bois who was stirring up all the racial trouble in the U.S. And if they would just fall in line and accept their own racial inferiority, everyone would be better off.

The moderator introduces Du Bois and he walks out on stage. The crowd, largely black folk, is electrified. He is one of the most able speakers of his race, and not only in America, but the whole wide world, the moderator says. Du Bois looks over at Stoddard, who is already at his lectern. Stoddard shoots a smirk of superiority. Du Bois thinks to himself,

Du Bois presents his argument. The topic is, shall the Negro be encouraged to seek cultural equity? Du Bois uses a lot of words to say yes.

Stoddard was there to argue that, of course, Black people should not achieve actual equality. He's written a book called The Rising Tide of Color Against White World Supremacy. He babbles on and on about the superiority of Nordic people and how people of color worldwide are plotting against them.

Du Bois dunks on the theory hard in his speech. He especially goes after Stoddard's claim that racial mixing is a true threat to Nordic people.

They have been responsible for more in a mixture of racist than any other people, ancient or modern. And they have inflicted this miscegenation on helpless, unwilling slaves by force, fraud, and insult. And this is the folk that today had the impudence to turn on the darker races when they demand a share of civilization and cry, you shall not marry our daughters.

The blunt, cruel reply is, "Who in the hell asked to marry your daughters?" Du Bois closes out his argument by demanding that people of color get a voice in their own government, an economy that benefits them, not just white business owners, and access to higher education.

When Stoddard, a fellow Harvard man, launches into his speech, he soft-pedals the racism. All of a sudden, he's a separate but equal man. He calls it biracialism, and he points to separate train cars in the South as a shining example of it. Thousands of Black people in the crowd erupt into laughter. Stoddard is bewildered. I don't understand. What is the joke?

Du Bois leans into the microphone. You don't get the joke because you've never ridden a Jim Crow car, but we have. Whatever words are left to say, Du Bois wins, and it feels good.

Preparing for this episode made me realize the first time I thought very critically about gender is when I learned as a black boy, I was seen as being hypersexualized and unable to control my sexual urges. I feel like it was something I learned real early from like a Tupac, you know what I'm saying? An interview where he talked about being like a black brute.

And this episode right here really, really made me think of that. Yeah, it's really interesting to think about how these stereotypes have been created about black people, whether you are a man or a woman or you identify as somewhere elsewhere, that we are just like these impregnable.

impudently sexual beings who just cannot control ourselves. Like the men are raping women, but you can't rape a black woman because they just want it so badly. And then to recognize how these ideas about our sexuality and our bodies continue to permeate everything.

from fictional cartoon characters to songs to fashion to beauty standards. It's just like this continuous pattern of your bodies are not your own. And also you can't be trusted to be around other people because you're such a ravenous beast that everyone is in danger of.

But at the same time, like, historically speaking, we know that not to be true. And it's also like this thing of like, look over here while we do something else over here. That's that's we're doing the thing that we're accusing you of. Yeah. So, yeah, it's so maddening. Like the gaslighting genuinely makes your head spin.

Yeah, it's a pattern. I think Joy James and the great Ida B. Wells wrote about how in the lynching era, the political reality and the reality, how they were just completely opposite. The political reality was that black men were being over sensationalized as being these sexual brutes that cannot control urges and just going to go out and sexually assault women. The

The reality, though, was that there was actually white men that not only were doing it, but had like the legal impunity to be able to go violate women's bodies. So for me, it's just really thinking about how the history of policing is something that's always being used to talk about it.

sexuality of black men particularly to be like yeah they masculinity so uncontrollable they gonna just hide your kids hide your wife them boys have to write for everybody and it's like not to say that black men are not you know i'm saying like we are implicated in sexual violence but there's a history however that over sensationalized black men is not being able to control them things in our pants and make it where you know it justifies killing us well and it's also you

completely disingenuous, right? This idea of like, they're not there, they can't control their sexual urges. And yet, if that was like the real belief, right, then we would be pushing to advocate for better sexual education for everybody, right? For more people to have the ability to express their own bodily autonomy and talk about their needs and their desires and their boundaries and

But we don't do that. So it's like this fake overperformance of like, we care so much. Y'all are bad and scary. And then nothing is actually done to advocate for people of any gender. And again, that's what's so frustrating about it. It's like we care so much, but not enough to actually do anything, right? Like you're going to put it all on black people. And yet, when you look at the victims of sexual violence, they get no support. Right.

They are not believed. They are fighting to be heard. And it's like this, this boogeyman that's being used in order to like actually avoid doing anything to help advocate for survivors.

And the last thing I say on this point is that I will argue that the horrors of black people being like sexual mongerers is so embedded into like the social fabric of our country. It's one of the reasons why we had a president that showed birth of a nation in the White House, because it really was a part of a part of the psyche of our country to really buy into this narrative that we don't protect these white women from the black men, particularly. It's something bad that's going to happen. And I

think going back to joy james and out of the wells a little bit also something to be said about how black women are scripted as being uh overly sexual therefore white men don't have to have any conscious about always trying to go violate their body autonomies because you know they were like black women were scripted in the law as being nymphos for most of the part until like the 60s or the 70s you know i'm saying so i feel like w.e. du bois is really cooking on this one and you know sometimes he'd be he'd be he'd be messing the dishes this dish are here good meanwhile

Capitalism rules today. The Harlem Renaissance writers keep on writing. Black people are used to being low on money. They hustle hard.

Arnon Bontemps is in the middle of writing a novel in February 1930 called The Chariot in the Cloud. Langston publishes his own novel in 1930, not without laughter it was called. It wins the Harmon Gold Medal for Literature, which comes with 400 whole dollars. He takes the money and runs to Cuba to get away from troubles.

County has to hustle too. He doesn't have time to feel sorry for himself, but he indulges once in a while. Letters from his best friend, former lover and best man, Harold Jackman, perk him up a little bit. Harold has all the best gossip. County is also grateful for his friend, writer, Dorothy West. They've been spending a lot of time together. And Dorothy, he sees an opportunity ripe for the taking.

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While most of the talk about County and Yolanda's brief marriage has died down, folks in his inner circle was still getting the kick out of it. In a letter to Honor Bontemps, Langston Hughes writes that County and Yolanda's wedding still makes him laugh. It was so ridiculous. The black newsletter headline, "Groom Sells with Best Man,"

Tickles Langston pink whenever he gets to thinking about it. It be your own friends, don't it? But County knows that Langston not the only one key keen about his sexuality. And he's going to do something about it. He takes another look at Dorothy West. County is a ballroom dancer. Dorothy is his favorite dancing partner.

They're regulars at the Savoy Ballroom on Lenox Avenue. They attend readings together. They call each other baby and darling. He gives her gifts. He dedicates a poem to her. He makes plans to propose. This time, he's going to be upfront about his sexuality before the wedding. But she turns him down.

My instinct is to praise him for like at least telling her beforehand, but it's also like county, come on. I know that it was difficult at the time, but my hope would be that he would see other examples of men being able to be out and successful and live their lives differently.

and not feel as if he has to use a woman who supposedly is his friend to advance his career. He's like, wow, I really like this woman. I'll marry her. And that way y'all will stop talking about, and I'll tell her, don't worry. You know, I, this is who I am, but I need you to do this for me.

So that I could get ahead. It's like, come on. I read that part thinking like, what in the performative penis is going on here? He's like, but at least I'm telling her first. Like, yes. I'm like, yes. Yes. And it's still really messed up.

She's like, well, hey, I read the two things. Like, you know what? So what this show is that even bisexual and or queer men can mess up platonic relationship with women's trying to have arterial motives. Yeah. Crazy how that happens, huh? Well,

Part of County's confession was that his father encouraged him to propose to Dorothy to cure his homosexuality. Because it wasn't just religious Black people who looked down on homosexuality. The Black middle class and Black elites saw homosexuality as a threat to racial progress. Being gay isn't respectable in their eyes.

W.E.B. Du Bois even fired the business manager of the crisis after he was arrested and charged with homosexual activity. So County definitely knew what time it was. But that didn't stop County from hanging out with his friends.

Eduard Roditi, a gay writer who visited Harlem in the 1930s, once said in an interview that "There was a whole crowd of rather nice gay blacks around County Cullen. They used to meet practically every evening at Cascabon's and sit by the hour playing cards."

Edouard would know. He became one of Harold Jackman's lovers when Harold and Countee were in Paris. When Edouard comes to New York, he gets hot and heavy with Dorothy's old crush, Richard Bruce Nugent. Bruce is so openly gay that Countee's father, Reverend Cullen, didn't approve of Bruce being in his house. So if Dorothy was into someone that open with being gay, why would she turn Countee down?

She questioned once if marriage is a dull business for women. Also, she may have needed a beard for herself. Dorothy had romantic feelings for women and men, and she wasn't ready to deal with it.

Instead, she runs off to Moscow with Langston and a group of other writers to be part of a documentary about being black in America. While there, she falls hard for Langston, even decides she wants to have his child. Hold on. So Kelly fake likes Dorothy, who likes Langston, who used to date Alan Locke.

We need a diagram to show who is dating who at what time because it's getting real messy like reality TV. Let me blow your mind one more time. The gag is Dorothy's also got feelings for her roommate Mildred Jones. Mildred is an artist fresh off a divorce from a man. But when men pursue her, Mildred tells them she's looking for the same thing they are.

In a letter to Langston, Dorothy confesses that she's torn. "I wanted terribly to see Mildred and you. I did not know whom I wanted to see most."

But Dorothy makes a choice. She proposes to Langston, but he declines. He knows she's in love with Mildred, and he's right. Dorothy gives in to her romantic feelings for Mildred, and the two come back to New York together. When he finds out about their relationship, County is happy for Dorothy. In a letter, he writes, She is such a beautiful creature.

I know this show is black history for real, but this some Fleetwood Mac level hooking up with my only friend. I'm talking about Shrugging Wood and that wood to build a fence. I'm talking about, man. Wait, have you seen that Fleetwood Mac clip where Stevie is singing and she's looking at Lindsey Buckingham and she's like,

It's like her eyes are piercing him while she's singing. That's exactly how I feel about all the stuff that's happening to your point. It's like people are hooking up and they're like all in community with each other and everybody knows what everyone else is doing. It's just, it's so messy, but that's kind of why I love it. Like when people... Well, excuse my French, that was fucking, fucking like, oh yeah, I'm getting that. Well, you know the other reason, the other reason...

reason that I love hearing this stuff is people are so critical about our generations and younger generations being messy and like the sanctity of marriage and it's like a lot of the people who were history makers were also out in these streets getting it where they could outside and

And there's nothing wrong with that. But this idea of like, you know, you have to be respectable men and women and da, da, da, da. No, you can still like, you know, have a little fun and contribute to the culture and being an intellectual too. Like everybody deserves to get their rocks off.

You know, Afro-Pessimists would say you're celebrating social life within being in a state of social death. Oh my God. Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

County might be unwilling to settle down with a man because he's been trying to get back into the literary stardom for the past 10 years. Gay isn't the way to get there as far as he's concerned. He realizes what he needs most is financial stability. In 1934, unemployment for black people was hovering around 50%. 50%.

He takes a teaching job at Frederick Douglas Junior High School to support himself. One of his students is a young James Baldwin. James, as in James Baldwin, is in County's French class. County takes a liking to the young man and decides to mentor him. County recognizes his intelligence and can see that James needs a way to process the fire with him.

James' stepfather was a minister just like County's father. As a teenager, James preached at his stepfather's small revitalist church. It was called the Fireside Pentecostal Assembly. County understood and sympathized with the strict environment James was growing up in. He decided to cultivate James' artistic sensibilities.

James once said in an interview that some of his teachers at Frederick Douglass were survivors of the Harlem Renaissance and wanted us black students to know that we could become anything. County eventually talks James into going to his alma mater, DeWitt Clinton High School.

James Thrives. And while he's there, he becomes editor of Magpie, the same literary magazine that County had edited when he attended the school.

It's so interesting to hear James describe someone being a survivor of the Harlem Renaissance. That was my first time ever encountering this idea, especially because I have such positive and inspiring associations with the Harlem Renaissance. But those who lived through it, you know, might have had a different recollection of this time of like, this was really amazing, right?

But yet there was like the other side of it, like the other side of the coin where it's like that pendulum swing. It makes me think about, you know, the Obama era and then like the pendulum swing after where it's like, OK, we made progress. But then you get on the other side of the progress and it's like, OK, now we need to have the blowback to that progress. And so it's interesting to think of the Harlem Renaissance in a similar way. We tend to forget that a lot of.

These moments in history are movements. And, you know, a lot of times movements die or they fuel out. And as a result, you know, the backlash happens. So really being able to view people that was a part of a movement is being a survivor. I think that it really takes a lot of us to think about what happens and how it happens a little bit differently because you recognize it impacts real people, lived experiences, and that some people don't make it out of the movement.

even the Harlem Renaissance. In 1934, Du Bois is trying to survive Walter White's heavy-handed leadership at the NAACP. White is a hands-on leader, and that includes the organization's magazine, The Crisis. Du Bois doesn't like White creeping in on his territory.

The problem is, Du Bois has been using the crisis to spread the gospel of Karl Marx. Since the Great Depression started, Du Bois has been pushing anti-capitalist ideas to fight racism. As executive director, Walter White didn't like that. A lot of NAACP staff members sided with the boss, despite the fact he was not popular with the staff. They call him a dictator behind his back.

But that was just the opening act of the blowout between White and Du Bois. When WEB pivots from Marxism and socialism to voluntary segregation, things get really heated. I'm all for growth. I'm all for growth. But I'm still really wrapping my mind around like WEB, Du Bois. You feel me, Mr. Bourgeoisie, bootstrapping, talented, 10th elite thinking, talking about some problems.

Marxism. Like what? Like I'm in my mind. It's like, fam, like you when you got into a Marcus Garvey, you was a capitalist, fam. Like he was talking about, you feel me, the proletariat working class. And you really was talking about elevating the bourgeoisie class of black folks to be able to save everybody. So I'm just really like, did he go back and rectify his analysis about the Taoist attempt? We start pushing his Marxism or is that like a tension that he just.

Yeah, it makes me wonder, like, one of the things I loved when we were in the W.E.B. Du Bois episode was that, like, everybody was beefing in the, like, literary magazines. It was kind of like beefing on Twitter. I wonder what, like, the Harlem Renaissance version of receipts is. Like, who was pulling up being like, ah, ah, ah, in this article here? What?

Like, who was doing it? I just need to know. Marcus Garvey obviously was one of the ones that was putting tags. That's the reason why, you feel me, WB Du Bois had to go pull the receipts up talking about how he was mismanaging them funds. You know what I'm saying? If you ain't checked that episode out, go on, go back and check that out. You know what I'm saying? It got real ugly and messy. But, to the point of what we're talking about right now, WB

WB Du Bois is really on like some sucker shit in many different instances, especially how he weaponized black folks' position in economics and or they mismanagement of economics. You know what I'm saying? It's really like, well, I see you out here. You know what I'm saying? But noble thing enough for him to start thinking very class conscious about a time when black people read the whole world, especially America anyway, was like going through the depression. So it makes sense. But I still couldn't like the philosopher in me had to be like, now hold on. Hold on now, player. Hmm.

Yeah, yeah, very convenient timing. Du Bois actually writes in The Crisis saying that Black people would be better off in a segregated society. He didn't think the president's New Deal was going to do anything for Black people. White Southern congressmen start using Du Bois' words to advocate for segregation. They even have his words put into the congressional record.

Walter is not having it. His father died in a segregated ward in a hospital because the treatment was inferior to what white people got. He damn sure isn't going to see the NAACP advocate for it. He writes to the board and says that if the organization is for segregation, then the organization isn't for him. The board talks him out of leaving. Then, de

Du Bois goes in. He writes an editorial in the April issue accusing Walter of campaigning for integration because Walter is able to pass for a white man. Walter has blonde hair and blue eyes. He goes where he will in New York City and naturally meets no color line for the simple and sufficient reason that he isn't colored.

No, no, no, no, William. No, William Edward. Remember, ain't no color issues in America. No. Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. Yes.

One of Du Bois' friends warns him that the editorial will bring hell down.

He don't even care. White goes to his friends in the press and they start writing takedowns of Du Bois.

One paper calls Du Bois an abject, boot-licking, knee-bending, favor-seeking Negro. Du Bois gets angry and says his words are being twisted. He claims that his new position is consistent with this old one. All he wants is equality for black people.

He keeps writing about voluntary segregation. Meanwhile, Walter rallies the board and talks them into creating a rule that will prevent the crisis for promoting anything that goes against the policies of the NAACP. That means no more articles about voluntary segregation. Rather than being muzzled, Du Bois resigns.

County's day job gives him the stability he needs to pursue his writing. In 1935, he joins up with Harlem Renaissance buddies Claude McKay and Langston Hughes to start a new magazine like Dorothy West had done with The Challenge.

They even had a house party fundraiser to get it started. Only problem is that they put County's bestie Harold Jackman at the door. Remember him? His best man and buddy? Yeah. The more Harold drank, the more people got into the party for free. The magazine never got off the ground. Never.

County goes back to the classics and publishes a translation of the Euripides play Medea that same year. It's considered the first major translation of a classical work by a Black American writer. It doesn't move the needle the way he wants it to. Nothing does. And he's not interested in leaving his job at the school to work in the Federal Writers Project.

That's how Claude, Dorothy, Arna Banton, and Zora Neale Hurston were paying the bills. There are a lot of questions swimming around the direction of County's writing career. But County wants to pin down his romantic life. His father pressures him to find a good woman and settle down again. County is friends with his father's secretary at Salem Methodist. Her name is Ida Mae Robertson. By 1938, Ida and County are dating seriously.

There's the little matter of Ida's first husband, Robert Lee Parker. Ida's divorce from Robert won't be finalized until August 1940. She and County get married a month later. They have his father's full approval. Reverend Cullen believes Ida can help his son stay straight. County helps his new wife, Ida Mae, adjust the furniture to her liking. Today, they're moving the last of their must-have items into the house.

He glances out the window. The leaves are still changing color. It's October 1940. His wedding to Ida Mae was the polar opposite of his wedding to Yolanda Du Bois. Quiet, small, simple. Nary, a reporter in sight, Arnaud Bontemps was his best man this time around. County helps Ida Mae put away the silver utensils and china.

He had made room for them earlier. It's going to be easy living with Ida Mae. They've been friends for 10 years now. He proposed to her in a letter this summer. If you're willing to overlook and understand my deficiencies and not be too disgusted with the husband who can't stand the lightning, they're married by late September. Ida Mae's daughter from her first marriage was there by her side. County smiles. He has a stepdaughter.

And she's 18, so he won't have to raise her. He wonders if he's even qualified to raise anyone. He's always been so focused on his career, a child wouldn't have gotten enough of his attention. County leaves Ima to her business and checks the mail. A letter from Dorothy sits on top.

She settled down with a short story writer named Mariam Minus, who dresses in what County describes as the masculine style. He's glad his friend is as happy as he is. Comfortable. Middle class again. Dorothy's in Martha's Vineyard right now. County misses dancing with her. Ida Mae calls him back to the living room to place a vase on top of a bookshelf.

The chimes on the grandfather clock seem to him that it's five o'clock. In a couple of hours, he's supposed to meet his lover, Edward. They get together every Friday evening. Edward is 14 years younger than him, but County finds him charming and intelligent. In his letters to Edward, County calls him D.B., code for dearest and best.

Careful, County, Ida says. He's nearly toppled the vase, trying to reposition it to her liking. He focuses, and she's satisfied. She goes off to rearrange the closet, and County decides to take a shower before heading out into Harlem. Remember when County had a problem with Yolanda Du Bois being a mere three years older than him? Well now, here he is, out with a much younger man. We see you, County. Ha ha ha.

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"Are we giving too much to the white family?" Owen asks. "No, I think there's a balance between the white family's story and the black family's story. They both have sons fighting in this damn war." Countee edits out a small set of lines for the white family's second scene. Owen is a good writer and a good theater director. Countee wants his play to be a hit. That means listening to his creative partner. Owen laughs. "I knew it. Maybe we can give those lines to the black family."

County agrees and makes a note on the pages to do just that. He wants the play to appeal to black and white audiences. He thinks this is one small way to bring peace in America and maybe even abroad. I wish we had more time to work together. You should consider dropping the school job, Bowen says. County shakes his head. He turned down the chair of creative literature position at Fisk University because he didn't want to leave the city. But his job at Frederick Douglass is his bedrock.

That job will keep me and the wife in ham sandwiches and green beans in case this thing is a flop. Their play, the third, fourth of July, is published in Theater Arts Magazine. It's not a flop, but it's not a hit. That's okay with County. He's setting into a new phase of his life. Though County wished to stay in the city,

Ida eventually sells him on the idea of Westchester. It's an easy commute into the city and he's enjoying the slower pace. He still sees Edward on Fridays. Dorothy writes to him, "You and Ida have an enviable address. That's my dream. To live outside of New York within easy reach." She and Marian had moved to Martha's Vineyard where Dorothy spent summers as a child.

Dorothy encourages Counties growing love for the theater. He feels good about his prospects and he likes working with his friends. He partners with Anna Bontemps to write a play based on Arna's novel, God Sends Sunday. The story is inspired by Arna's great uncle and it's juicy. It's centered on a black horse jockey and his love life in the 1890s. County goes all in on the adaptation

It was his idea. By 1945, the stage play has revamped into a musical called St. Louis Woman. It takes over his life. A young Lena Horne signs up to play the lead. County heads to California. St. Louis Woman causes County some heartache. The dialogue he writes doesn't live up to his leading lady's expectations.

County stands when Miss Lena Horne comes into the room. He's only been working with her team so far. This is the first time they meet face-to-face. He thinks that she's even more beautiful in person than on the movie pamphlets. But he's not starstruck. He's been around famous people before. Hell, he's been famous himself.

in a way, but he is nervous. He's got his whole heart wrapped up in this project. If it falls apart, he doesn't know if he has another one in him. Mr. Cullen, a pleasure to meet you, Lena says. Her voice is a velvet whisper. County is feeling hopeful, but his intuition is ringing an alarm. Her body language feels cold. He tells her, I love your work.

I'm so happy to have this opportunity. I like to think I've created a project that showcases your tremendous talent. I really hope you like it. Lena smiles and thanks him. She was very excited about St. Louis Woman when she heard about it from a big-time Hollywood producer. I hope it goes to Broadway as planned. I believe it can, Ms. Horne, Kelly says, clenching his hands in his lap.

He can feel the hammer about to drop on him. That's when Lena's manager jumps in. We knew this wasn't going to be a comedy, but this book is downright depressing. County can feel his big break slipping away from him, but he doesn't give in to panic. I've been with this project for a long time now. Before it was a musical. I know that I can fix it. Give me a chance to make it right for Miss Horne.

The manager reminds County that it's not just Lena's road that needs fixing. County knows that, but he thinks it might be smart to cater to the storm. Lena shifts in her seat and County can tell he said the right thing. Her feet are facing him now. Her face is more relaxed. I'm trusting you, Mr. Cullen. We'll leave it to you to turn it around, Lena says as she stands to leave. She walks out

And County lets out a large exhalation. County does his best to fix the script. He feels like he's so close to getting back in the winner's circle. He'll do anything to make it work. But his high hopes come crashing down when Walter White from the NAACP gets an advanced copy of the script and badmouths the musical. He said it's offering roles that detract from the dignity of our race.

The interracial film and radio guild also trashed the musical, calling it an insult to Negro womanhood. It's something County might have said to himself back in his racial uplift days. And that stings. Lena drops out the storm role and releases a statement. St. Louis woman sets the Negro back a hundred years.

One writer familiar with the project said that County was broken by accusations that he had defamed his race. County is devastated. He feels that most of his career has been about uplifting Black people, even if he was playing the respectability game. He goes on the defensive. Unfortunately, he finds very little support, even amongst his friends.

County remains with the show, though the controversy rages into the next year. The new star of the show leaves, and a power struggle takes center stage. Supporting actress Pearl Bailey doesn't want her Broadway debut ruined. She's not the star, but she leads a mutiny to get the right person in the role. It works.

Not the Latavia, Beyonce drama like Destiny's Child, like the switch-up, huh? It was an absolute mess. But at least the show goes on. Countee is hopeful. The opening is set for March 1946. Countee doesn't live to see the musical open on Broadway. He dies unexpectedly on January 9th of the same year. On one hand, he didn't have to see the NAACP protesting the musical outside of the theater.

On the other hand, he missed how Pearl Bailey's career takes off after her turn in the show. Du Bois doesn't have kind words for his former son-in-law in death. A couple of weeks after County dies, Du Bois writes an editorial in the Chicago Defender. He criticizes County for divorcing his blackness from his art. It's quite a change-up from a man who had praised County publicly for writing in a way that was indistinguishable from white people.

It is sheer nonsense to put before Negro writers the ideal of being just writers and not Negroes. The opportunity then for literary expression upon which American Negroes have so often turned their backs is the opportunity and not their handicap. That County Cullen was born in the 20th century as a Black boy to live in Harlem was a priceless experience. I'm wondering, like, how much does Du Bois'

culmination of like resentment and, you know, kind of like let down of counting successful, unsuccessful marriage with his daughter, as well as like mourning the loss, but also like trying to process those while he writing this. I'm wondering like how much did that play out with his word choices? I think that's very charitable of you. And, and I do think that pain represents itself in a multitude of ways. It doesn't make his words any less painful.

I think the thing that's just interesting for me is like how he was able to flip flop on County. If you really love someone and admire their talents, you should be able to recognize and celebrate them in all the ways that they show up. And County, like any person, was multifaceted. No one is perfect. And it's just so frustrating how W.E.B. is so different.

judgmental and he plays so into respectability politics when it benefits him. And then he flip-flops immediately. It's just like, he's so two-faced.

When I was in college, I always had like mixed feelings about both Booker T. Washington and N.W.E.B. Du Bois. And then I feel like from just learning more about them, doing this series with Black History for Real, I think that I just like, bro, you were self-serving. I try to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you really had your ways of turning a sword on people and then acting victim under the same sword with the same way you just swung it.

funny how that happens for like little black skin dark skin light skin juggers like but that's how light-skinned dudes be sometimes man Du Bois outlives County by 17 years but he also learns a lesson about needing support from black people while County's widow was trying to show up his legacy Du Bois finds himself blacklisted by the government for his communist views

In 1951, the government accuses 83-year-old Du Bois of being an agent for the Soviet Union. He was arrested and indicted for protesting nuclear weapons with a pamphlet. The judge acquits Du Bois because his free speech is guaranteed by the First Amendment. That doesn't stop the government from going after him. A year later, they illegally suspend Du Bois' passport to prevent him from traveling internationally.

His passport isn't restored until 1958 at 90 years old. The Supreme Court returned passport rights to all suspected communists. Du Bois takes off for the newly independent Ghana in 1960. It's a post-colonial paradise.

Oh, my mama. To all the history nerds listening to this right now. Tell me that don't sound familiar to all of the policing that's happening right now with this quote unquote woke stuff. Almost. I think that when you think about like the McCarthyism red scare error, just replace a lot of the words they use like commie and being, you know, saying a socialist and really think about how they embastodize it.

The whole idea of being woke and how this could be used to just, you know, delegitimize you, make you seem like you're somebody you're not. You know what I mean? It's crazy. Oh, yeah. I mean, we've seen this throughout history. The idea that they latch on to these words or concepts and then make them into the boogeyman. They create whatever narrative they want to spin around them without actually talking about the real substance of reality.

these ideas. It's more about demonizing the people that are associated with them. So you don't want people to actually understand what these movements or words legitimately mean. The U.S. government refuses to renew Du Bois' passport while he's living in Ghana. Du Bois realizes that he's effectively no longer an American. He makes it official and becomes a citizen of Ghana on his 95th birthday.

I think something that's very intriguing in a very insidious way to me is how so many individuals, a part of the movement, got exiled and or felt like the place that they just was able to theorize and talk about the struggle in, that they can no longer felt safe being able to do it there. From Huey P. Newton to Eldridge Cleaver to W.E.B. Du Bois, it's something to be said about that. Du Bois has been writing about communism this whole time.

In other countries around the world, he's still a respected intellectual. In America, he can't get published to save his life. Even black people don't want nothing to do with him. I feel bad for him, but it's also kind of like, what do you expect? You've talked so much crap about black people and you have created this hierarchy. It's like one of the foundational moments of your career. And now...

The chickens are coming home to roost, so to speak, where people are just fed up with the things that you have been proselytizing throughout your career. And again, it's heartbreaking on the one hand because...

He has done positive work. He has uplifted talented Black people throughout his career. But to what end? Definitely a lot to unpackage, especially when you think about how much...

How much people get beside themselves when we start to experience different types of accolades and how, you know, W.E.B. Du Bois and, you know, other individuals, though we know them in history as having so much love and respect for the black community. A lot of our leaders, when they die, have very desperate relationships with black community. May it be how they feel about the community or how the community feel about them. And I feel like when I when I

When I came to grips with that, it's like early in my early 20s. I think it really made me think about progression differently. Du Bois dies the day before the March on Washington. He was so controversial because of his communist writings that Martin Luther King Jr. and the rest of the march leaders struggle with how to announce W.E.B.'s death. They ultimately decide to focus on Du Bois' landmark publication, The Souls of Black Votes.

They say Du Bois' words are as relevant to the modern civil rights movement as they were when he originally published them in 1903. In 1950, County's widow, Ida, establishes a foundation in his name. She also plays a big part in getting the 136th Street Branch Library in Harlem renamed for County in 1959. And a few years after that, she sees PS-194's name changed to honor County, too.

In 1967, Du Bois' reputation gets some rehabilitation in America. MLK says in a speech that now is the time to stop muting the fact that Dr. Du Bois was a genius and chose to be a communist.

Today, Countee Cullen is remembered as one of the premier artists of the Harlem Renaissance. While he struggled with self-acceptance when it came to race and sexuality, his legacy as a seminal writer and poet during one of America's most artfully fruitful times is cemented.

For his part, W.E.B. Du Bois is still considered one of the most influential intellectuals in American history. And although some of his beliefs are considered elitist and he was beefing with folks regardless of race and time zone, we acknowledge that he is one of the most important voices of civil rights of the 19th and 20th centuries.

If you like Black History for Real, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.

This is episode four of our four-part series, The Talented Tenth. We use multiple sources when researching our stories, but New Yorker Magazine, The New York Times, and the W.E.B. Du Bois Center Library at the University of Massachusetts Amherst were extremely helpful. A note? Our scenes contain reenactments and dramatized details for narrative cohesiveness. Follow Black History for Real on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Black History for Real is hosted by me, Francesca Ramsey. It's a pleasure to be here.

and me, Conscious Lee. Black History for Real is a production of Wondery and DCP Entertainment. This episode was written by Pia Wilson, sound design by Greg Switeson. The theme song is by Terrence Martin. For DCP Entertainment, associate producers are Quinn Hill, Brittany Temple, and Chris Colbert. The senior producer is Ryan Woodhull.

Executive Producers for DCP Entertainment are Adele Coleman and DJ Treacy Treece. For Wondery, Lindsey Gomez is the Development Producer and the Productions Coordinator is Desi Blaylock. Sophia Martins is our Managing Producer. Our Producer is Matt Gant. Our Senior Story Editor is Phyllis Fletcher. The Executive Producers for Wondery are Marshall Louie, Aaron O'Flaherty, and Candice Manriquez-Wren. Wondery.

Hey, I'm Mike Corey, the host of Wondery's podcast, Against the Odds. In each episode, we share thrilling true stories of survival, putting you in the shoes of the people who live to tell the tale. In our next season, it's July 6th, 1988, and workers are settling into the night shift aboard Piper Alpha, the world's largest offshore oil rig.

Home to 226 men, the rig is stationed in the stormy North Sea off the coast of Scotland. At around 10 p.m., workers accidentally trigger a gas leak that leads to an explosion and a fire. As they wait to be rescued, the workers soon realize that Piper Alpha has transformed into a death trap. Follow Against the Odds wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on Amazon Music or the Wondery app.