9 | Truth Hurts | For Real, For Real
59:40 Share

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Black History for Real early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Today we're doing a little something different, you feel me? We're doing a little something different. We're going to be engaging with how y'all was talking about in the live stream, as well as some of the things y'all put in the comment section. And as always, y'all know that historical tea always pour the hottest.

That is correct. This week, we are using our Talented Tenth series as a springboard. And if you have not listened to it already, we strongly advise that you do. It is juicy. Do that. So we are going to...

Do it. Go listen to it. Today, we're going to be breaking down the various ways that Black leaders have said that we would get free by looking at W.E.B. Du Bois' Beefs with Margus Garvey and Booker T. Washington. We're also going to be talking about church hurt, especially among queer people, and looking at all the ways that fathers and husbands impose misogyny on their wives and daughters. We're looking at you, W.E.B. and County Cullen. So without further ado...

Let's get into some Black History for real. Black History

From Wondery, this is Black History For Real, where we chronicle the stories of movers and shakers from Black history all over the world. The stories will inspire you, educate you, and more often than not, leaving you shaking your damn head. I'm Conscious Lee. And I'm Francesca Ramsey. Black History For Real

Forget one-size-fits-all diets. With Noom, you get a personalized weight loss plan that's tailored to your lifestyle. No food is off-limits. Enjoy your favorites while discovering healthier habits. Noom's users love the flexible approach, blending psychology and biology to help you lose weight in a way that's sustainable for you. Stay focused on what's important to you with Noom's psychology and biology-based approach.

Sign up for your trial today at Noom.com. That's N-O-O-M dot com. And check out Noom's first ever cookbook, The Noom Kitchen, for 100 healthy and delicious recipes to promote better living. Available to buy now wherever books are sold.

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. With the price of just about everything going up during inflation, we thought we'd bring our prices down. So to help us, we brought in a reverse auctioneer, which is apparently a thing. Mint Mobile, unlimited premium wireless. How did it get 30, 30, how did it get 30, how did it get 20, 20, 20, how did it get 20, 20, how did it get 15, 15, 15, 15, just 15 bucks a month? Sold! Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch.

$45 upfront for three months plus taxes and fees. Promo rate for new customers for limited time. Unlimited more than 40 gigabytes per month. Slows. Full terms at mintmobile.com.

One of the few things that we tackled in our Talents in Tenths series was the sensationalized beast that definitely would have made its way to Twitter had it existed in the 1800s. I'm positive of it, for sure. Oh, absolutely. Taking shots. It's so funny to think that today people use social media to say things about people that they wouldn't say in their face. But back in the day, you had to publish. You had to sit on your little typewriter at

type it up, take it to the printing press, do the whole nine. And what we know is that when it comes to the great William Edward Burgott Du Bois,

WB is how you say it right there. He had a lot of beats with a couple of folks. You know what I'm saying? He was, he was, he was going back and forth in the black and white against Liberty Washington, as well as Marcus Garvey. And I think that there's a lot of unpackaging that we can do on, on, on not only, uh, WB Du Bois, what he was saying, but also the people that was opposing him kind of unpackaging. They live, they live, they live, they live beats and how a lot of the issues, something that common themes that come up to,

to this day.

So if you remember from the episode, which y'all have listened to already, because we know you gobbling up every single episode of Black History for real, Du Bois and Washington, they were on opposite ends of the spectrum when it came to so many different things. Du Bois came from like a pedigreed family, lived in a more integrated background, and Washington was born into slavery. And so what

One of the things that we talked about in the episode is this respectability politics that were kind of permeating throughout these arguments between them. Condras, why do you think someone feels the need to position themselves as like, oh, the fact that Du Bois was always bringing up that Booker T, you know, was born into slavery. It's like, he didn't choose that. Why are you bringing that up?

you bringing that up? Like, not only did he not choose it, to me it made some of W.E. Du Bois' points come off as disingenuous and or self-serving. Like, you only doing this and serving the people and so far you believe it will push you up as an individual, but you really don't give a damn about the people you're talking about, especially because you didn't brought your higher last month, North...

moved down south and had the nerve to really create a superiority complex that says that I'm going to be the great leader of the Negroes in the south because I'm educated. And I feel like that's what I got, sir. Not only when I was doing my own research, but when I was actually doing the episode as well. It was like, there's a little bit of...

snobby, upper middle class, bootstrapping. You feel me? That really both of them had. But I think that there is a little bit of elitism that's sprinkled into, you know what I'm saying, W.E. Du Bois' end because it's a common theme of his. I believe that Booker T. Washington being a dark-skinned brother also played in the demo. I thought he played in in some way, shape, or fashion the way that Du Bois was responding to him.

Yeah, you bring up a good point. And I feel like that's something that comes up a lot, this need to kind of like overperform your Blackness. And I would argue that that potentially could be at play here. Like, colorism is real, but too often you have folks that want to pretend that it's not a real thing. And in this instance, it kind of feels like Du Bois was kind of

you know, doth protest too much. Like, I have to prove, like, I'm Black, I'm Blackity Black. And it's like, we know you are, but kind of like what you're saying here, Conscious, it feels like colorism was impacting the way he was interacting with another Black person who, at the end of the day, we're all just trying to get free. Also, I think something that

Something that comes out of the Du Bois versus Washington debate is how a lot of conservative liberal conversations happens amongst black people, especially when you recognize how they thought that we was going to be able to use education to mobilize ourselves. For all intents and purposes, W.E. Du Bois was really pushing a more liberal education about like humanities, about, you know, I'm saying philosophy. You feel me about the arts.

Booker T. Washington, on the other hand, was much more about like manual labor, much more about teaching us like trades. I think that those two things emphasize how black folks should be able to get our independence or resist white supremacy is a debate. And I feel like we still have today. As a matter of fact, I will argue that when we start talking about like the black media blog sites, a lot of the W.E.B. Du Bois, Booker T. Washington S. arguments.

Come out in those comment sections, especially when it comes to how Black people should defend ourselves or how we should express ourselves in the face of white folks being like, nah, we gross. Okay, conscious. Don't read the comments. Don't do that. Don't be, I mean, and I say this as somebody that I read, I read too many comments. Don't do it. There's nothing good about it.

Listen, listen, listen, listen. One time the comment section forced me to go back and completely like reevaluate my whole existence. And if I was even worthy enough to exist. So I don't miss the comment section ever since I came back to that. Yeah, don't do it. But, you know, you bring up a really good point about those those diametric ideas can persist to this day because another one on that same topic was that.

Booker T was all about like, hey, just don't respond to the racism. Don't deal with it. It was this kind of like, be the bigger person. You know what I mean? It was like, when they go low, we go high type of thing. It really was. I think that to me is like,

I'm a person that's been raised by individuals that have been in and out of the prison industrial complex my entire life. Right. And for me experiencing that, I know when I'm dealing with somebody that's institutionalized. And sadly, I think that when we throw the word institutionalized around, we're talking about how actions, mindset, feelings, emotions can be conditioned based off institution that you own.

I will argue that Booker T. Washington is responding to being emancipated from a very institutionalized position. And I think that now that I've gotten older, I give him the benefit of the doubt with that. Now, younger Pontius Lee, younger George Lee was like, I'll head to hell with this bootlicking, you know what I'm saying, shucking and jiving. Yes, master, I can work so hard and show you I get married. And look, we...

We said that as much in the actual episode that like it makes sense, right? Like when you have experienced oppression, it is natural to say, what can I do to avoid this? It's almost like self-victim blaming. You know what I mean? Where you're like, I must have done something wrong. And that is what happens when you are essentially pushed to the end of your rope. You know, you're like, I can't take this anymore. I have to try anything to get out of it. But it is unfair to yourself.

And it's unreasonable because those who are oppressors are going to oppress you no matter what. They don't care what you look like, how many degrees you have. You can have a black suit on, a tan suit on, a brown suit on, what kind of shoes you got. They don't care. They do not care. So, you know, focusing on that again, I think you really nailed it, that it makes sense. It comes from a genuine place, but that doesn't mean that we can't critique it and that we're

Again, they were having this different points of view on what liberation looks like for us. Well, with that being said, if I had to decide, like, okay, as a former debater, you feel me? You don't get to be in the middle of the road when you try to adjudicate a debate. You know what I'm saying? Somebody got to lose and somebody got to win. From that perspective, I feel like I'm more rocking with W.E.B. Du Bois' argument when he was going against Pippa T. Washington. But I will say in terms of, like,

I feel like the black radical tradition, I would argue that a mixing of both of those tactics is what ultimately got us where we at right now. It was the, the, the, the blending of both of them talking about, you know, being able to work,

You know what I'm saying? While also being able to demand, while also being able to recognize your humanity, while also being able to prove your humanity. I feel like Booker T. Washington and W.E.B. Du Bois illustrates how a lot of us Black folks encourage settings right now, especially when we find ourselves in predominantly white spaces, how we have a black off. And don't be who be the blackest. It be who is the most consumable and palatable for white folks. Let me tell you, I feel I have...

I hate your response to that, Francesca. No, I know. I know. I'm feeling moved in my spirit to the point that I'm struggling to put words together because, yes, I have had too many instances. You know how I describe it? I describe it as you're in a space, you see another Black person, and there's this moment of like, these are my white people.

You can't. I have to be the only one Highlander. This is my space. And you're like, yo, we're not in competition. Like, I'm trying to do the head nod with you. And I'm like, oh, damn. Wait a second. I didn't know. Oh, no. See, you don't understand. See, this is my whites. See, I just got to be the black whisper to this whites. You got to get your own. You just got to get your own white. It was a respected, bitterly politic arms race. Mm-hmm.

I can't imagine the different white voices you would have heard and how they were perceiving or consuming the debate or the back and forth of W.E. Du Bois and Booker T. Washington. Because the spectacle of Black people, especially Black intellectuals, having a spate of disagreement, I'm always critical of how they are perceived, you see what I'm saying, by non-Black audiences, especially white ones. I think that, you know what I'm saying, it's something to think about and chew on.

You know, because when we think about Black history now, a lot of what we learn about W.E. Du Bois and Booker T. Washington is literally filtered through that white lens. That's why I'm critical of it. You're asking yourself, like, why don't you help? That's why.

Well, listen, we have more people to cover because as we know, Du Bois was out here beefing with everybody. He also was getting into it with Marcus Garvey. The great Marcus, man. On the colorism tip, I have to bring this one up. Du Bois described Garvey as a little fetishist.

fat black man, ugly, with intelligent eyes and a big head. And then Garvey called Du Bois a little Dutch, a little French, a little Negro, a mulatto, a monstrosity. One drop away, you got a little of this, a little of this, a little of this. Call that man a Dr. Pepper, 23 flavors, how many flavors are there, boy? Ha ha!

And when he called him, it took to me, I was like, he's boiling down. Demi, we the boys just like, you fat, ugly bastard. And then, you know what I'm saying? Marcus Garvey was like, oh, you mixed mutt. And it's pretty much like what they did. And I think that again, going back to what I just said, that's the reason why we got to be critical of how a lot of times what we do is perceived. And I'm not putting the oldest on us, but being critical of it because it's like, hey,

Both of y'all just use very white supremacist archetypes to go at each other. Like, I can't. We cannot not acknowledge that. The other thing is, I will argue that W.E. Du Bois and Marcus Garvey was the first group.

I asked for war. I recognize that on the plantation before we got off, there was various plantation wars that happened throughout. You feel me? The new world. We're talking about the West Indies. We're talking about South America. We're talking about North America. I also acknowledge that when Marcus Garvey and W.E. Du Bois came onto the scene, it's the first time we get sensationalized media.

of diaspora wars. And I think that what Marcus Garvey was trying to get at with WWE The Voice is how a lot of us Americans right now to this day, we'd be lost in the sauce of like white American hegemony. And we believe that the way that white people view themselves is how we should view ourselves amongst the diaspora. Yeah. Well, and just the fact that

Blackness comes in so many different shades, like physical shades, but also like your embodiment, the way that you carry yourself, the things that you like, the way that you speak, the way that you dress. And there's no right or wrong way to be Black. And the minute that we let go of

that, then the faster or the sooner we're able to fight for equality for everybody. Because that's what we're supposed to be fighting for, right? The beauty and the privilege of being individuals. I don't want to be responsible for how Blackness looks for you. It looks different for all of us. I recognize, to me, it's like an unpackaged Ina Gari versus The Voice.

I mean, that has to be said about who they prioritize and who they center it and how who they center literally allow for them to be targeted easier. I will argue that W.E. Du Bois looking after the black folks that white people already see value in, the educated, talented, championing, you feel me, ones, made it what he was. I feel like more coalesced and safe in how he did his thing. Garvey was for the people in the bottom, the people in the hood.

People eating sleep for dinner. You see what I'm saying? So for me, it was easier to trivialize not only by the establishment, but also by its own people because he was caring about folks that's like, I feel like even the black communities indoctrinated Dr. David Demmel about. The W.E. Du Bois...

in Marcus Garvey debate I think it also got a little unpackaging to do about how black immigrants and black Americans are treated differently and how it's a double-edged sword of divide and conquer no matter how you turn the sword because I think a lot can be said of how both of these groups deal with unique types of anti-blackness and make you aware you know black immigrants can link up with white people and literally just you know push the nastiest anti-blackness on black Americans

I also recognize that black Americans can link up with white people and push a unique type of, you know, what's the word I want to use here? Xenophobia, you know what I'm saying? Against, you feel me, black immigrants. So for me, it'd be like divide and conquer and recognizing how diasporas is built in a way to keep the relationships of black folks in the diaspora unstable.

As long as we have instability in our community, we can always be able to take advantage of. You know what I'm saying? I think there's a lot to be said about that.

It's something that you said that really stuck out to me that you've said a few times on different topics is asking Black people to recognize that if you closed your eyes, you sound like a racist white person. You start talking about, oh, you talk this way. Your hair looked like this. Your nose looked like this. You ain't got these kind of degrees. You da-da-da-da-da-da-da. It's like, mm, that sounds familiar. Nice. Mm-hmm.

It smell like it. It taste like it. Yeah. It feel like it. Is she pushing my surprise? Yeah. Is that what she's pushing me? It's so real. And just like this idea of like, who are you trying to impress? What? Who?

who are you trying to win favor with? And, you know, the thing is, is you can be an agent of white supremacy and when you are no longer useful, they will chew you up and spit your ass out. So enjoy it. Enjoy it now. Enjoy it now. When you are no longer useful, they'll spit you out. And then you're going to be looking at us like, take me back, please. And,

And just in case any of this is going on over y'all here, saying it's simplified. You do not have to be white to be an agent of white supremacy. You do not have to be white to push white supremacy. All you have to do is align with white supremacy. That is enough.

That is enough. Yeah. You don't want to be you don't want to be a pick me for white supremacy. What? Don't do that. You don't want to be a jigaboo, a shucking and jogging, tap dancing. Notice this too. Notice this too. It's 2024. You know what I'm saying? When you listen to the podcast, I'm hoping that we're able to increase your language. You know what I'm saying? A little bit. Your vocabulary. Notice that we have not used the moniker of an Uncle Tom or a sellout. Not one time.

I'm only using it as an example to point out how we have not used any of that language, but we have definitely, I feel like, very masterfully described the phenomenon that's very similar without using that very politically charged language. I think we deserve a clap for that one, actually.

As summer winds down, let your imagination soar by listening on Audible. Whether you listen to stories, motivation, expert advice, any genre you love, you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities, new ways of thinking. With Audible, there's more to imagine when you listen.

And speaking of listening, you can listen to the best-selling science fiction thriller Project Hail Mary by Andy Weir right now on the Audible app and traverse the galaxy in a desperate last-chance mission along with astronaut Ryland Grace, all from the comfort of your living room.

As an Audible member, you choose one title a month to keep from their entire catalog. New members can try Audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.com slash WonderyPod or text WonderyPod to 500-500. That's audible.com slash WonderyPod or text WonderyPod to 500-500.

Make this new school year an opportunity for your kids to learn important life skills with Greenlight. Greenlight is a debit card and money app for families where kids learn how to save, invest, and spend wisely while parents keep an eye on kids' money habits. Greenlight also helps families get into their fall routine with a chores feature that lets parents assign chores and pay kids allowance when they check them off. Get your first month free at greenlight.com slash wondery. greenlight.com slash wondery.

Let's talk about another topic that we got into. We just scratched the surface on the show, but misogyny and this recurring theme in this special talented 10th series about fathers and husbands using women for their own ends. So one of the ways that Du Bois flexed his respectability muscle is

was by choosing a proper mate for his daughter, Yolanda. She was in love with a jazz musician, Jimmy Lunsford, but there was no way that Du Bois was going to let Yolanda marry a jazz musician, okay? So he steered her in the direction of Harlem Renaissance poet County Cullen, who happened to be gay.

And Du Bois really saw County as a vehicle to build this elite legacy for his family. And County, for his part, because he was not without, you know, a little blame in the situation, he saw Yolanda as a ticket to success because he could mask his homosexuality. Contras, I always feel like you do such a great job of like talking about

misogyny from the perspective of a cis straight man who, you know, not to give you cookies. Yeah, I got a lot of work to do. Again, that's what I enjoy about our conversations that we keep it real.

But I think you always do such a great job of like adding that nuance. And why do you think it's so difficult for men to acknowledge that even if you are a Black man, even if you are a queer man, even if no matter what walk of life you are from, you can still participate in misogyny? Why is this hard for dudes to understand? Yeah.

Help me. Help me understand. I think that in my I feel like what I find in doing this work is that the hardest thing to do a lot of times is trying to convince an oppressed person that they are also implicated in oppression. I think that specifically for black men, I think that it's hard for a lot of us to come to grips with that. We are also the oppressor to somebody else because we're always so.

uh, concerned, worried, and I feel like forced to think about our own discrimination because it's really predicated on our survival. I think also that some of us get away with being able to ignore how you implicate in power and dominance by just saying like, Oh sister, that's divided conflict. We all black. Let's focus on our being black person. They didn't get to that. I think that, that, that usually what comes out of it. And for me watching for me, like having to go back and relearn about WWE, the voice and, and, and, and him literally using his daughter as a, as a,

than the object to be able to mobilize. It's like, hey, to me, simplifying it, hey, we have to have a conversation about how us as men, Black, white, Mexican, indigenous, don't matter, use discrimination amongst women as a way for us to be able to come closer together. Like, we literally would create solidarity at the expense of being discriminatory towards women. Even it's your own damn daughter, William Edward Burgoyne. Yeah, and it's so interesting because I...

I'm sure you've heard people say this too. There's often this trend of men being like, when I had a daughter, suddenly I understood and I saw things differently. Or even when people say like,

What if that was your mother? What if that was your daughter? And to me, I'm like, you shouldn't have to have a blood relationship with someone in order to see their humanity. And it's so frustrating to me across all different sorts of issues, right? That people only care once it's in their backyard, once it's at their doorstep, once it's somebody that they care about. It's like,

You can show empathy for people you're not related to. And what I learned in college is that that's what we call benevolent sexism. You think, God damn, you can be sexist under the plight of you trying to do something because she's weak.

she need me to look after her if i don't look after her and protect her she gonna be out of that it's like that's that's that's the textbook definition of benevolent sexism and to me it showed a lot is that like w.e du bois was conditioned in the in the northeast around white people you know i'm saying that that probably had just immigrated to the america's main defense see i think if i put this in context of what it is he treated his daughter like some white game of thrones like i'm

I'm trying to unite empires. I'm going to have my daughter marry the prince of this country to be able. That's really how he did it. I think that we forget a lot of us forget about how misogyny is a really a tool for men to be able to use as a as like a staff. So they go to your example. I feel like it's come down to being like most men can only view women in a relationship to me.

That's somebody's mom, that's somebody's sister, that's somebody's daughter, that's somebody's niece, that's so-and-so friend, that's so-and-so girlfriend. If you don't have that connection, you're just an object. You don't get humanized until you have a relationship with masculinity. Yeah, I just, I really hope that when people listen to our show, it helps them contextualize these things from the past, but then also look at how they're

They might see those patterns in their own lives. Because while we might not be in a space where people are saying point blank, I want to give you to this person for y'all to marry, we do that. Like in our families, right? Where your parents are like, ooh, that's who you're going to get with? That's not the type of person that I would want you to be with. Or...

someday when I have a daughter, she's going to be da-da-da-da-da, or I'm a boy mom, and my son, he better worry when he starts dating somebody. You know what I mean? And it's like, kink.

I want y'all to zoom out a little bit and understand the constraints that you are putting on yourself, your children, your friends, and your partners just because they present as this gender over this gender. And to know, not as like we're wagging our finger at you, but that this is a constant struggle. This is something that we all have to consciously...

Pun intended. We have to all think about and unlearn and work through together. How would you define the Bible? Well, I mean, usually people...

use that as another way to describe the South. You know, I'm from Florida and I don't like to disclose that normally. I try to keep my personal business personal. But Florida is interesting because Florida is the third largest state in the continental U.S. So there's a lot of ground to cover. And I'm from South Florida and South Florida and Northern Florida feel like

two very different places. So when you say the Bible Belt, I have a moment of like, oh, yes, I did grow up in the Bible Belt. But in my mind, I'm like, South Florida is a totally different place. But Florida is mad conservative. It is mad conservative. And this topic of church hurt

is real. And I don't know that Black people are ready. I got done doing a video on this thing on my Twitter. Go check it out. The content's elite, you know.

We got a black pastor in the pulpit talking about how there's only two genders and about how God only made two genders. He didn't quote any Bible verses. He didn't quote any doctrines or anything like that. It was just talking about how he feel. I presented Bible verses talking about how, you know, throughout the text, there's a demand that we look out for the oppressed, for the needy people that can't speak for themselves.

And I identified individuals that, you know, are gender fluid, gender nonconforming as being oppressed people. You see what I'm saying? So in my mind, the word aligns with, you know, what I'm saying more than what they say. And also in my mind, it's like, hey, the question I leaned in with was, hey, do you believe

that God makes mistakes. My second question was, aren't we all created in the image of God? If this is true, the way that you try to trivialize being trans or being gay, but it's just as being trans, it means that those individuals are also made in the image of God and God ain't making mistakes. The third thing I brought up was the existence of intersex people. If intersex people exist, they cannot just be pushed into being man or woman. How can you say you only man or woman?

Are you saying God makes mistakes? Are you saying there are people that exist that are not made in the image of God? You asking questions that need to be answered. It needs to be. And to me, I feel like a lot of church hurt, it speaks directly to the current climate that we live in, in terms of spaces of worship and spaces of praise. Right now, what I know, whether you're talking about a black church, a white church, a Mexican church, an Indian church, across the board, church attendance and church membership is significantly down.

Well, the thing is that I think a lot of people are unwilling to recognize is that people have weaponized the Bible throughout history. And they've weaponized it to make it say whatever they want it to say. That's why we have all these different editions floating around. People will say, you know what? I think this Bible should say this. This is the Francesca Ramsey Bible. And it says everybody got to have a shaved head. Like, you just make up whatever you want.

you want in that respect. And so, and Matthew 4, 4 say, don't lean on the word of God. They say, do not follow your own understanding, but lean on the word of God. You know what I'm saying? I did a little bit, you know what I mean? And what I know is that folks, I didn't mean to cut you off like that, but folks be, they be picking through it like trail mix. Like, I like this one, I like that one. I like this one, I'm going to eat this one. I like this one. They pick through it like that and it make you where it's like, so let me get this straight.

You're going to tell me this, this bastardized verse about, you know, Adam and Eve and about, you know, homosexuality, but you're going to sit here and talk about ending your service early to go watch the pigskin, the same pigskin that Joe Bottle said you should be around. So you can be, it becomes true. I mean, look, if, and if we're going to get real with it, there were redacted versions of the Bible during slavery that,

to keep enslaved people from realizing that they should

rise and that they should not be a slave. So again, to your point, you want to pick and choose what's what. You cannot deny that people have used their religious beliefs in order to assert that certain people don't deserve the same rights, that certain people are less than. And it's really, really, especially as marginalized folks, it's

It is incredibly hurtful for someone to speak out of both sides of their mouth. I love you, but also you going to hell. Damn. Like, oh, you just condemned me? For the devil? For the devil? With us talking about church hurt, I want to make sure that we're not offending none of our Christian listeners or people that love going to church. What we're talking about to me is what...

Why? Why we have such a low membership and attendance with the church, but also want to be fair and acknowledge that we don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. And talking about black history for real, I can acknowledge the various ways that the black church uniquely has had an integral part in black liberation, black resistance from being able to feed people.

Uh, to being able to be, you know, seeing a little common space for us to be able to talk about planning for literally being a space that literally births our leaders. You know what I'm saying? I feel like, you know, there's a lot to be said about the greatness, you know what I'm saying? Of the black church, but it doesn't negate or deny the way that also the black church has caused. I'm talking about right now.

Well, I think that that also just speaks to the theme of our show. Like Black History for Real is about acknowledging the complexities of our history and that more than one thing can be true.

And unfortunately, that's not something that social media likes. Nuance is really difficult online. And so that's why the podcast format, I think, really lends itself to these conversations, because especially when we talk about, you know, County Cullen not being able to really fully live as a gay man online.

The church was a big part of that, right? And to your point, it doesn't negate the positive things that the church also was able to do and the space that it was able to provide for Black people. But also, there are a lot of queer people who have never felt seen by the church and have never felt like they belonged there, despite, especially as Black queer people, fighting for our liberation, right?

So it's like, I'm doing this work. We out here on the front lines. But you won't acknowledge my humanity or let me be who I am in the name of, you know, these are my religious beliefs. But again, more than one thing can be true. And I know what's talking about church hurt. The thing that I know that

hurts a lot for individuals impacted is that the hate for black queer people becomes inherently seen as being natural because the mere existence of black queer people gets seen as an attack on the black family structure you know i'm saying it gets literally seen as a mere existence or you you was created by white supremacy because white folks had created queerness and created gay stuff so your mere existence is trying to push white supremacy i think that the church is

able to like really like, you know what I'm saying, stir the pot when it comes to the intersectional ways that LGBTQ people in our community are demonized, not only in terms of heteronormativity, not only in terms of transphobia, but also they use white supremacy as a way to say, hey, you equal white supremacy. White supremacy been trying to attack the black man, been trying to attack the black woman, trying to attack the black family structure. So as a result,

Your existence is an extension of that attacking because you can't procreate. You don't want to do this to any other than I think that's the part that's hurt. And like...

Oh, even that like you can't procreate thing is so ridiculous because guess what? There are straight people that can't procreate. There are cis people that can't procreate. Being able to give birth while a beautiful, a beautiful thing. Not everybody can do it. Not everybody wants to do it. Some people that want to do it can't.

And it doesn't mean that they are less than. It doesn't mean that their family structure is not worthy. It doesn't mean that you can't be a parent. It doesn't mean that you can't provide value and enrichment to a young person's life just because you are not physically able to carry a child.

Yeah. And like them. So, again, this this thing of like, well, you guys are this. It's like, yeah, but the intersectionality of it is that like we are more than our reproductive parts. It's important that we be critical of this dialogue, of this language, of this narrative, because it creates policies. A lot of church hurt comes from church authoritarian type acts.

Being able to criminalize IVF or being able to criminalize social justice, criminalize reproductive justice, it's a part of what pushes church. It doesn't happen in a vacuum. It doesn't happen in a vacuum, folks. If you're able to throw out embryos because you believe IVF is doing X, Y, or Z against your religion, that causes hurt. That causes trauma and that causes pain, suffering. You told me to be fruitful and multiply. I went and found some tools to help me to be fruitful and multiply.

You pass legislation that not only criminalized it, it literally denies my access to being able to do it. A lot of times, us as Blacks, this is the Black folks. A lot of times, us as Black people in the world that we live in right now, we become crash dummies where we literally get batteries put in our back. And now we're acting like the damn energizer belly doing the work of white supremacy on our own people.

I'll never forget what happened there in 2020 and 2021 when the community was talking about, I'm saying, going to the streets, fighting for equality and freedom and getting justice for Ahmaud and Breonna and George. Yeah, I was talking about me and high value media. Yeah, I was talking about, you know, saying being able to talk shit about a fat black woman with five kids. They got three baby daddies like that to me was a part of how the church pushed doctrines that are anti-black.

in that are anti-black community and they really get pushed as being like divine or being like godly and it's like man it's ungodly for you to deal with it is ungodly for you to push you feel me a certain type of paranoia to make a person feel like they are they are damned for hell because they gay

Or they trans. Or they intersex. It's like, that's crazy to me. I think you're right that people forget. A lot of times people are like, well, that's just how I feel. Okay, but how you feel has consequences. When you support legislation, when you support politicians, when you support policy that has consequences.

It doesn't happen in a vacuum. And that ultimately we should be able to have the freedom to make choices about our own bodies. And to your point about like the IVF stuff, right? Like the other side of that is there are people that really, really badly want to have a baby and they don't want to have to get an abortion, but they need it in order to save their life. There's complications that are, that risk killing,

them and their unborn child, oftentimes way down the line in the process. And they're like, I don't want to do this. But by restricting access, because you've decided that every single person that has this medical procedure, this healthcare procedure is bad.

or a killer or whatever, you forget that there are shades of gray. There are so many different experiences in which people need healthcare and that healthcare is a human right. You know, it's just, it's, it's, it's so frustrating because unfortunately people seem to only care when it affects them. And we're seeing that tenfold right now. And I just,

I don't know. I'm curious if you have any thoughts about... I want to ask you a question first. Oh, sure, please. I'm curious for your response, your perspective, your opinion. Why do you think this particular sin, this particular alleged sin of being queer is one that Black church holds, you know what I'm saying, as being like the big bambino over like adultery or like, you know what I'm saying, heteronormativity or like stealing? I think it's tied to...

The fact that our humanity has always been questioned, that as Black people, we have not been seen as people. And so...

That respectability politic thing of like, we have to be the best. We have to be perfect. And so the idea that being queer is a choice, quote unquote, is one that some Black folks are able to say, if you stop doing this, we'll be seen as more human. We will be afforded the rights that everybody is afforded. I can only assume that, you know, these ideas about

our sexuality have always been pushed on us. This idea about, like, you know, you can't rape a Black woman. -Yup. -That Black men are just ravenous. They're gonna rape everybody. You gotta hide your kids, hide your wife. Be careful. So it's like that trickle-down has been internalized by us. This idea of, like, well, if you're acting this way, then you are validating the lies that have been told about who we are and our worthiness as Black people.

And that's the reason why we got to bring up sexual deviance and how the concept of sexual deviance allows for a lot of people use their religious motives, motifs, I should say, to justify doing ungodly things to God's people.

You know what I'm saying? The, the, the, the sexual deviance allows the individuals to trivialize a person's identity by saying that because you have this identity, this means you're going to be inherently sexually deviant. I think that it's important to acknowledge, Hey, a lot of the tactics and universal thinking y'all deploy on people in our community that's queer is the same text that white folks literally deployed against us using science and religion. To say that we were you, to,

to say that it was okay to beat us and kill us and rape us because we weren't human. So it's literally the same thing. When you want to talk about, when you want to use your middle school ideas of biology to try to trivialize the trans identity, it's the same way that white folks try to, you know what I'm saying, use different verses or use different notes to trivialize black identity. And to me, it's just show that, hey, you have been

indoctrinated by massa and the colonizer did a damn good job with you did a damn good job with you you probably got found victorious something like that because how did you learn how to deploy these skills so greatly like this man like damn it yeah like that's how i see it like you almost like a lot us as colonized subjects a lot of times

It's hard for us to think outside of our subjugation. And I think that a lot of black men and men, period, a lot of religious people, especially, feel like just, you know, I'm a, I'm a clung on to whatever gives me status, even if it's at the expense of somebody else not having status. And if you're being real, the institution of the church has always been one that has been, you know what I'm saying, structured that way, going all the way back to the canonizing of literature with, you know what I'm saying, Constantine. Like, it's always been that way. Yeah.

This season, Instacart has your back-to-school. As in, they've got your back-to-school lunch favorites, like snack packs and fresh fruit. And they've got your back-to-school supplies, like backpacks, binders, and pencils. And they've got your back when your kid casually tells you they have a huge school project due tomorrow.

Let's face it, we were all that kid. So first call your parents to say I'm sorry, and then download the Instacart app to get delivery in as fast as 30 minutes all school year long. Get a $0 delivery fee for your first three orders while supplies last. Minimum $10 per order. Additional terms apply. ♪

I recognize that any time the claim is made about the nuclear family being structured by white supremacy, a lot of people get their tidy whities in the bunch. I acknowledge that because I know we've been taught that the nuclear family is a very natural way that family structures come about.

The easiest way that I'm able to illustrate how the nuclear family is a unique Western, you know, I'm saying invention is thinking about how the village is operates and think about how the village in all indigenous communities operate in terms of having a mixed family or having an extended family. The idea behind the nuclear family is one that already send you up to. I know I can isolate the individual easier. I isolate the family.

We also know that when it comes to the economy and commerce, there's been different ways that the government and corporations had pushed the idea of the nuclear family to make sure you go buy their home, to make sure you go buy five, six cars, to make sure you don't have those kinship relationships with your grandma, with your uncle, with your auntie, which is like thick.

Think about the family structure in terms of outside of white family context, how your grandma, your great grandma was probably raised in your neighborhood or raised in your home. You know, I'm saying how your auntie, your uncle, your cousin was probably in your home. That goes against the definition of what a nuclear family is. You see what I'm saying? But also, too, I can push you in direction. Google Scholar is your friend. You know what I'm saying? And you'll be able to go over there and really get the science.

scholarly journals that's been peer edited about the origins of the nuclear family? Because, hey, I could be lying. I don't say it. A pair of lips will say anything. I'll take my word for it. Look it up. Well, one thing that I think is worth thinking about is who does it benefit when we don't prioritize the village, when we don't work together, when we don't see... You know, this happens a lot of times, right? Where like...

You'll see a kid in the store acting out and people say, oh, that child needs to da-da-da-da-da, right? But like the village approach is, hey, where's your parent? Wait, you look lost. What's going on? Us working together and helping each other, right? You know, you need a babysitter. You got a cousin. This person's like your play aunt, right? That you build this chosen family because it lifts all of us up. But when we see ourselves as individuals and you only say, well,

I only do for my blood family. I only do for my kid. I only do for my wife. I only do for my sister. What does it do? It drives a wedge between us. And I think about this, especially in the context of the pandemic. Couldn't get people to wear a mask. Why would I wear a mask? Because it benefits somebody else that I don't want to do it.

Literally, that was nuclear family response. I only care about my wife, my two kids, my picket fence and my dog. I don't care about community. There's no need for me to care about community or collective. I only care about the individual. And that is true. Start your education up in it. 1924 is when the term nuclear family was first used. 1924. Think about how much family operated that happened before 1924. Yeah, and it also makes me think about

Whenever there is a tragedy within the Black community, you know, I don't have siblings. I'm an only child. But when I hear about a Black person's life being cut short, it feels like it's my family. I feel like, oh my God, like I feel for the parents. I feel for their siblings. I feel for their loved ones because there is that community, to your point about the village aspect of

And I feel like that just kind of reinforces your point about the nuclear family being a tool of white supremacy, where it's like, I don't have to worry. That's somebody else's business. I don't have to worry about them. I don't have to have compassion for them because they're not my family. Those are not my people. And I hate to go this deep with it, but you know what I'm saying? In my life, when we start talking about Western societies and how they're structured,

I think that we always have to point out how Western society wants to universalize its standards, universalize its perspectives and make it like its perspective is the

of everywhere. When you do the research on the nuclear family, it's going to point you to two specific historians. These historians tried to go back into the goddamn, what are we talking about, the 13th century, and tried to extrapolate by saying, hey, the nuclear family is something that can be traced back to the 13th century, and we believe that it's innate to how the family operates.

Recognize these are European researchers trying to universalize the way that the family structure operated amongst Europeans.

not amongst other people so this idea is used to further justify colonizing and slating because guess what you're gonna do a european colonizer we have to make them you're gonna bring the nuclear family to the world we're gonna civilize all you blacks all you coloreds all you indigenous people we go we go we go we're gonna colonize you and teach you how to have a good nuclear family because why is your grandma staying here why is your uncle staying here

It's too much. It literally, it's a colonial project. The nuclear family is one that could be marketed in time and space that show you that it's not infinite. Show you that it's not been forever. Show you that it is made by a particular demographic trying to prove something about a particular demographic at the expense of what? A particular demographic. And I would also, and I would also,

encourage people to ask, what is the downside of a village? What's the what is the downside? Because, you know, it makes me think of

Have you seen that show Conscious where the kids go to the store by themselves and they ride the bus and everybody's just like, oh, look, there's a little kid going to the grocery store and nothing happens to them because everyone's like, yeah, that's a kid by themselves. But like we all community, we got to watch out for that kid. Be careful.

I always think about that could never happen here because someone will get hurt and people will be like, that's not my business. That's not my... So who suffers when we all have an interest in seeing each other be safe?

and be fulfilled and be protected. The folks that profitize off of our danger, the people that is able to literally get, you know what I'm saying? Get a little bit of mobility off of us being hurt. You know what I mean? Like, sheesh, it's crazy when you think about it like that too. The question you pose is really like, ugh. Exactly. And it's such a simple question. Who, who,

Who stands to gain? And again, it's the same thing of thinking about allyship between all these different marginalized communities, right? Like, who stands to gain when we all see our liberation as a competition?

Who does that serve? Massa, the colonizer. Literally, Massa, Massanel. You know, I'm working Massanel. You know what I'm saying? Carter G. Wilson, you know what I'm saying? He ain't said it like this, but he pretty much said it like, hey, the mis-education of the Negro is like being able to get a person to buy into their own oppression so much, you don't even need a white man to do their oppression. They'll just believe it and do it theyself.

I think that a lot of a lot of we're getting it right now about the nuclear family and how it's literally anti-black at its core and demonizing the existence of the black infrastructure.

It's going to be a lot of folks that be like, say the opposite. Man, saying nuclear family is some white stuff, man, that's crazy, man, because it's nature. You're supposed to have a mommy and a daddy, and it's like, nah, man. And then you go out in nature, and you're like, look, there's a pride alliance. You got three daddies up in there. You got four mamas. You got babies running around. You don't know. Sometimes you find a baby, and you're like, I guess you're wrong with me. ♪♪

What do you think white people's position is in all of this, you know, talking about black resistance and black liberation specifically and not taking up too much space? Like what's their role?

I think I'm really glad that we're in a place where we're moving away from allyship into being an accomplice. And I will say that, you know, I have a very viral video about allyship and I take some responsibility in helping propagate the idea of an ally. But look, this is called growth, right? Like growth.

I'm at a place now where I'm like, I really think an accomplice is the way to go because we should be working in tandem together. And I think that white people need to, when they are in spaces that we are not present, they need to be that voice that goes, I don't know if that's the move. And that is scary. It's really difficult. And again, I say this is something that we all have to do, right? We talked about

queer people. We talked about women. There are spaces that you're always going to be in where there are not certain voices present. And that's when you have to get out of your comfort zone and say that there's work that we all need to be doing here. And, you know, I often use this analogy of like, if the ally, if allyship was a girl group, if it was Destiny's Child, we got to have somebody be Michelle. Right.

We got to have somebody singing, backup, same cue outfit, but you're doing the step and we all working together. And I think what often happens is a lot of times, again, it's not exclusive to white people, but you learn a little bit and then suddenly you're taking up all the space. You're trying to lead every conversation.

You need to let Black people speak for ourselves. You know, be there to help us out, but pass that microphone. You can't be on the mic all the time. You got to be doing the step with us. You got to be helping center our voices. And I think that that's really hard for white people who, because historically they've always been the center voice. And that's really, really difficult for them. So I think recognizing that

Your voice is not necessarily always needed. Sometimes we just need you to make the space and go, Hey, come here, take up, take up some space. Come, come step into the room. Um,

And again, I say this as someone who I've had to do that as an able-bodied person. Like, I've had to get better at saying, hey, we should be listening to disabled people. They say we should be wearing masks. Again, they've been asking us to do this. And then when they're in the space can go,

Y'all want to say something? I'm here. Hey, can we listen to them? Instead of saying, I'm going to take up the space and speak for them. Speak up, not over. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And I think that I'm posed with this question a lot when I do my DEI trainings and workshops throughout the country. I actually did a lot of them in February. And my response is usually twofold. The first thing is white people don't have all the energy we're trying to prove to me, have that energy. We're trying to prove it to them.

What I know as being a cisgender straight black man is that it's easy for me to create these little echo chambers of different women and say, yes, King, you got it right. You like them other men. It's harder for me to create that same type of audience amongst the boys, amongst the homies, amongst other men. So it's easier for me to try to prove that I'm not like the other men to the women. It's harder for me to try to go talk that talk with the boys. But me, when talking to white people, it's like, hey,

Instead of you trying to prove that you're a good white amongst black people, go prove you a good white amongst other white folks. Go have that same energy. Have this conversation at your table with your uncle and your grandma on there. Go have this energy and talk with this about the classmates. Don't try to come to a virtual space or to a present space and literally spin your wheels when you try to create this little cacophony, an echo chamber that shows that you're a good person because that work is only for a power on the back. It's not going to really be reciprocated or be applicable to having that liberation for black folks.

The second thing I'll say, and use an example, I'm a cisgender straight black man. I've read a whole bunch of feminist literature. First wave feminism, second wave feminism, third wave feminism, Chicano feminism, black wave feminism. I can tell you about all the buzzwords, misogyny, patriarchy, sexism, all that. If Francesca tell me I'm being sexist, I ain't going to say, shut up, Francesca. I read feminism. I say it all to say white people listening.

You should think about what it means to be a anti-racist racist. I'm an anti-sexist sexist. What that means is that I'm going to always be mindful of not trying to take up too much space, but always be mindful of how can I think about how I'm a little bit more sexist on Tuesday than I was on Monday? Like, how can I wake up today and learn how I was more sexist yesterday than I want to be today?

But the grain that I hear through all of that is that you did the work to listen first, that you were not leading conversations. You were willing to be led in certain spaces in certain conversations, that you were willing to do that homework. And I think that that's where a lot of people get tripped up.

They want somebody to do it for them. They want someone to bake them a cookie. And I often say, you got to bake your own cookies. I'm not going to reward you for believing that I'm equal, believing that I should be treated fairly. You have to do that for yourself because you know it's the right thing to do, not because you're going to be rewarded for it. Because...

The reality is you often are not going to be rewarded for saying that, you know, marginalized people deserve rights. That, hey, the thing that you just said is racist. Hey, we need some more Black people up in this space. Hey, we need some more queer people. Hey, you speaking over that woman. Most times...

You're going to rock the boat and you will suffer consequences for speaking up for the marginalized or the oppressed people in the room. So when you say when you come to me and you say, well, I think, da, da, da, da, da, give me a cookie. What? Why? That's like the bare minimum. You're not getting a cookie for just doing the right thing.

That's not why we do it. And it's being more confrontational when we're answering this question. When you talk about like taking up too much space, to me, the question becomes, hey, what you doing and how you doing, what you seeing and how you moving? Does it give you more status or does it put your body on the line? If it gives you more status, your ass taking up space. If it put your body on the line though,

Oh, it's hard for you to take up that much space when your body's on the line. Now you have to navigate in a whole nother way because your survivability is on the line. So when I'm the only man in a women's gender studies course, I'm the only man in different, you know what I'm saying?

It was hard. I'm a very talkative, loud person. I always want to talk. I can acknowledge white folks. It's hard to make yourself smile when you used to always be in the center of attention, when you used to always have your voice heard.

I understand that it is hard when you always have ideas and you always used to be able to speak to a lot of ideas. Sometimes, though, the best thing you can do is shut up and listen and learn. And I know it can be easier said than done. But I feel like the only way I got there right here, though, is being able to have tough conversations with women first that forced me to view myself in ways that I wasn't proud of, in ways that I was embarrassed of, in ways that I, you know what I'm saying, she's still coming to grips with. But...

I feel like I'm doing that work and I can be real and say that I got a lot of work to still do. I know I'm still implicated in being a sexist, patriarchal, misogynistic bastard. I'm just being real and being able to acknowledge it. And I feel like me having nine sisters or being married to a woman or having a daughter, it don't mean shit. You see what I mean? Like folks, you having a black spouse or having black kids or having, it don't mean that, like that's taking up too much space. Now you trying to do the thing you do. Yeah.

Don't do that. We talking about it though. We talking about it then. You see what I'm saying? It's like, hey, don't use your black anything as a crutch or relational thing to point out and prove that you bowdy bowdy. Well conscious. My heart rate is going. I feel like I just ran a marathon. I feel like I worked out.

We tackle so much in this conversation and it's truly been such a special bonus episode of Black History for Real. Please make sure to follow Black History for Real on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. And do not forget, you can listen early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus on the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

If you like Black History for Real, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.

Black History for Real is hosted by me, Francesca Ramsey. And me, Consciously. Black History for Real is a production of Wondery and DCP Entertainment. Sound design for this episode is by Lucas Siegel. The theme song is by Terrace Martin. For DCP Entertainment, associate producers are Quentin Hill, Brittany Temple, and Chris Colbert.

The senior producer is Ryan Woodhull. Executive producers for DCP Entertainment are Adele Coleman and DJ Treacy Treese. For Wondery, Lindsay Gomez is the development producer. The production coordinator is Desi Blaylock. Sophia Martins is our managing producer. Our producer is Matt Gant. Our senior story editor is Phyllis Fletcher. The executive producers for Wondery are Marshall Louie, Erin O'Flaherty, and Candice Manriquez-Wren. Wondery.

Hey, I'm Mike Corey, the host of Wondery's podcast, Against the Odds. In each episode, we share thrilling true stories of survival, putting you in the shoes of the people who live to tell the tale. In our next season, it's July 6th, 1988, and workers are settling into the night shift aboard Piper Alpha, the world's largest offshore oil rig.

Home to 226 men, the rig is stationed in the stormy North Sea off the coast of Scotland. At around 10 p.m., workers accidentally trigger a gas leak that leads to an explosion and a fire. As they wait to be rescued, the workers soon realize that Piper Alpha has transformed into a death trap. Follow Against the Odds wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on Amazon Music or the Wondery app.