Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison Reflects On Faith And Politics
22:30 Share

It's time to take the quiz. Five questions, five minutes a day, five days a week. Take the quiz every weekday at thequiz.fox and then listen to the quiz podcast to find out how you did. Play, share, and of course, listen to the quiz at thequiz.fox.

It's Live in the Bream with the host of Fox News Sunday, Shannon Bream. This week on Live in the Bream, I've got a first. It is not often that you have a former prime minister sitting with you in the podcast studio, but we are honored to do that, to have a conversation today with Scott Morrison. He was the 30th prime minister of Australia. He's got a brand new book, Plans for Your Good, a prime minister's testimony of God's faithfulness.

Welcome. Thanks a lot, Shem. Good to be here with you. To our humble studio. Yeah. We're honored to have you here. It's great to be back in the U.S. Okay, so this book is so openly, transparently about your faith. It's full of scripture. You've had critics along the way who have said, listen, this is not the Aussie way of doing things. Or to be so open about your faith as essentially an evangelical Christian. How important has that been to you? It's my life. And there's nothing more personal. But I...

I never wanted to write a political book.

And so this is really a book that's not about what I've done. It's about what I believe God's done for me over the course of my life. And particularly when I served in the highest political office in the land, I was there for four years or thereabouts, nine years in the cabinet in Australia, including those times of leading it as prime minister and over 16 years in the parliament over a pretty tumultuous time. And as prime minister during that period of COVID, of the aggression of China, as we saw, it was a global recession. We,

We were hit with multiple natural disasters in Australia. We had drought. We had floods. We had fires. We had cyclone and even a mice plague. And I remember turning to my treasurer, the equivalent of the treasury secretary. It's starting to feel like Revelation. Well...

Yeah, a bit like that. But I turned to him on one day, I think it was early on in COVID after we'd just been dealing with all this and just sort of made this check. I said, I think, Josh, it's time to let your people go. What do you think? And there were a few in the room who understood the part. But yeah.

It was an amazing time, but I just don't think I would have either been prepared for it or able to move through it without the life of faith that sustained me and my family. Yeah, it wasn't new to you. I mean, you already had that foundation there, your church, your church family, the group of pastors that you regularly communicated with, they prayed for you, those kinds of things.

I was interested to read the story of how you became prime minister because this wasn't something you were actively seeking to do. No, not at the time. In Australia, our politics works differently here. Here, you vote for a president and they're there for four years. In Australia, it's a parliamentary system like in the UK and Canada where if you lead your party, which has the majority in the parliament, then you are the prime minister. Right.

And so the members of your caucus, if you like, can change who the leader is any given Tuesday. And that happened. And this was not what we'd anticipated. And so you find yourself thrust into this role. Now, don't deny the fact that at some point I would have liked to do that. But at that time, I had two young daughters and...

And I knew what the job involved. But, you know, you don't get to choose the time in which you're called on to lead. It sort of chooses you and you decide whether to step up or step off. And I chose the former. And you felt led to do that. You talk about...

how you pray, how you have conversations with God and people who are not people of faith are like, "That sounds weird. What does that mean God said to you?" Scott, I want you to run for prime minister to get into this. When you say that you have conversations and that's been the underpinning of your life with God, how do you explain that? Look, Christianity is a relationship with Jesus Christ. And like you have a relationship with anyone else. It's personal.

And the thing about relationships is you talk to one another. You share things with one another. You expose yourself and are vulnerable. And that's what I always do. So when I say called, what I mean is in that moment, I just felt I just needed to be obedient. Now, I didn't know whether I was going to win or not. And in the subsequent election, which I talked about –

I talk about in the book where I said, I've always believed in miracles. And that's probably the line that's most associated with me now. And I'm pleased about that because for me, that was my way of saying to God, thank you and acknowledging him in a very significant moment.

Now, that doesn't mean that when God calls us to be faithful that things are necessarily going to work out the way we think they are. But that's the whole point about the book Plans for Your Good. They're his plans for your good, not yours. He doesn't need our help, I found. He does not need our help. It doesn't matter who you are. I mean, I think often, particularly those who are in Christian ministry,

I hope I've encouraged them through the book because I'm sort of saying you probably have your idea how you think you're going to help God, but I suspect he's got his own plans. And, you know, if we have confidence in those and can yield to that and then just, you know, focus on, you know, what he teaches us, then I think we can live very positive lives and be successful.

make a good contribution. And you talk about, we can't waste too much time and energy wondering what he's doing or what the plan is. And when it doesn't go well, you said, I found his blessing is not in the achievement. It's found in his presence. And this is so true. I found that as much in defeat as I did in victory. And, and,

I think one of the things as Christians we've got to be careful of is this idea, oh, we'll pray and God's like a vending machine. Put the prayer in, all the good stuff comes out. No, that's not how it is. The good stuff that comes out is his presence and the relationship. And you'll find that in the most traumatic circumstances of your life or you'll find it in some of the most exhilarating. I write about when Jenny and I were finally able to have children, the happiest day of our lives.

But I also talk about my deep friendship with Danny and Layla Abdallah in Australia, who lost three of their six children in one terrible afternoon at the hands of a drunk and drug driver who they forgave. And through that just tragic and awful experience, drew closer to God and found his presence. So that's the point of faith. And that sounds like a very difficult thing to do. Oh, massively. But yeah.

A lot of people ask Jenny and I about Danny and Leia and say, well, how on earth did they forgive the driver who was drugged and drunk, traveling at over 50 miles an hour higher than the speed limit and just wiped them out? How do they do that? I said, well-

Jesus Christ enabled them to do that. Yes, you're right. It is superhuman. And it's a product of the influence of faith in their lives. And it was probably the greatest act of witness that I saw. And we just sort of connected. When you're a prime minister or a president or a politician, you meet so many different people. Like you do here, I'm sure, across this podcast desk. But you sort of often see people...

At the worst moments of their lives, the house has burned down. It's been flooded out or it's been blown down by a cyclone. And there you are as a prime minister trying to offer some sort of comfort. And on occasion, I found I connected with some of them and I remain good friends with some of them today, well beyond the cameras and well beyond the moment. It was one of the most rewarding parts of the job. Yeah.

You do talk in the book about the really hard parts of the job. We can get into that with China and COVID and all of the many natural disasters and a really tough, tumultuous time when you were serving and trying to lead Australia. And there was a time, too, that you talk about, even after the fact, that feeling attacked by people when you were ready to sort of move on and people were still coming after you. And you're really upset. And you went to God and you were angry. And you were, this is what I love, because he can handle it. You know, he can handle it.

Well, ask Job. We're upset. Yeah, exactly. Job used to pray similar prayers. David used to pray similar prayers. Where are you? Where are you? And, you know, I took great comfort in that. See, I don't think God expects us to not be human. He made us, so he knows how we're wired. And the world we live in today, you know, is not the one that he originally created. We've stuffed it up, not him.

And so, you know, I think I've loved about the story of Job is that even though he was going through all that, he never lost sight of God. He never lost, even though he was angry with him on occasion, he never lost sight of who he was. And that's ultimately where his, you know, his source was. And, and,

You know, I was a bit the same through those times. And it was tough. And the pile-on is difficult. I mean, it's one of the, I think, really unfortunate things about politics now. People play the person, not the issues. And it's not about winning the policy argument. It's about destroying the individual. And, you know, there are good people and bad people. Only good people say good things even when they say bad things. And vice versa. I just don't think that's good for politics anymore.

because the problems we have to address are quite complicated. And the more voices in trying to understand what the answers are, I think the better. And it's hard for politicians to do that these days because the rules of the game are being set up beyond them, whether in the media or elsewhere. It's a very conflict-orientated business. So look, I hope it improves, but I'm not optimistic.

Yeah.

for trying to find ways to connect outside of Capitol Hill. Yeah, look, I've met some great Christian people here in the US over my time. Mike Gallagher, who's now just retired from the Congress, I got to know, and he's actually written some nice notes about the book when he was still in the role. And, you know, I suspect he was challenged by that as well. But, you know, I think

I remember saying to Mike, you know, he's had a great confession for God in his public life, and I wish him all the best for what he does next. He's a pretty impressive guy. He's a big loss for the Republicans here, I think, but I have no doubt he'll go on to do great things in whatever walk of life he finds himself. Yeah, you're right. It has become very combative. When you talked about that and talked about your own experience

seeking help for mental health as well as physical health because of just how ugly things got. I love that you included this. You said, God knows that anxiety is part of the human condition. He sees you. He knows what you're going through. He knows that it's part of who you are as a human being. There's no shame in it.

anxiety and depression are not a mystery to God. And, you know, we're told when Christ walked this earth, man, he went through abuse from friends, from enemies, and that he understands what we walk through. He's not a high priest who doesn't understand the human condition. That is so true. I'm always drawn back to that

time of his in the Garden of Gethsemane. I've always been struck by his sweat drops of blood. I think it's important to understand that he just didn't go through physical anguish. He went through mental torture. At one point, I was reflecting on the fact that it wasn't just that people told lies about him, but

His own people believe the lies told about him. And I confront, I had to deal with that. It's part of modern politics. People will misrepresent you. And sometimes some of the hardest times is when your own supporters...

um, believe the lies, um, rather than defending. And, uh, and that's tough to deal with. But, you know, at the end of the day, when you find yourself, your own identity, if your identity, and I write about this in the book is, is based in, you know, how many likes you get on Facebook or, um, your identity is based on your gender or, you know, physical attributes or, or, you know, what you think you've achieved. Well, you know, you're going to end up

seeing that house crumble. I talk about the parable about building your house on the rock or on the stand. I think with identity these days, there's plenty of beachfront real estate that is on offer about people's identity that gets washed away. And I write about my own experience with that. If you find your identity as made by his hand in his image for his glory, well,

Well, it gives you the confidence. And I often found that with whatever challenges I was facing, my confidence didn't rest in my own mortality. It rested on something far stronger than that, that I could draw on. And what a comfort. We'll have more Live in the Bream in a moment.

Precise, personal, powerful. It's America's weather team in the palm of your hands. Get Fox weather updates throughout your busy day, every day. Subscribe and listen now at foxnewspodcasts.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

Again, we're talking to Scott Morrison. He's the 30th prime minister of Australia. His new book is called Plans for Your Good, a prime minister's testimony of God's faithfulness. So let's talk about some of the toughest things that you had to walk through and try to lead the country through the Commonwealth. Let's talk about China first. Yeah. What worked? What didn't work? Where do you assess that we are in the world with regard to China and its influence and position? Well, I think the good thing is that we are now awake.

to the threat. For a long time, I think we operated under a well-intentioned delusion that somehow if China got rich as a country, they'd become pluralistic, democratic, more liberal. And I don't mean liberal politically. I mean, you know, the liberal society.

I think we've all woken up to the fact that that ain't going to happen. I think when Xi Jinping became president of the People's Republic of China, the world changed. And I think that was the end of that sort of globalization period that we saw after the end of the Cold War.

And so I think it's good that we recognise this. And what produced that, new things like the partnership I was able to form with the United Kingdom and the United States, which began under the Trump administration and was concluded under the Biden administration for a defence partnership to really provide a deterrence and a resistance towards what China was seeking to do in our part of the world.

the Quad Leadership Dialogue, which I was part of, which was originally being sponsored and promoted by Shinzo Abe, who was a dear friend of both mine and President Trump. I was just with President Trump very, very recently, and we were reflecting on our dear friend Shinzo. He's such a huge loss. But he was one of the first to wake the world up to this. So he took a stand. We took a stand in Australia. And the Trump administration took a stand. I remember Mike Pence saying,

The first time we met actually was in Papua New Guinea and he was speaking there and he'd already given a very big speech on about China to the Hudson Institute here in DC, I think it was around September. And then later that, then he gave a pretty similar speech and I was waiting in the wings, I think I was on next.

I was listening to Bayek and I went, he's not missing. He's really landing there. So we met up later in that day. So yeah, a big threat. They change their tactics from time to time, but their intention is very, very clear. They want a world ruled by power where they get to decide what people's rights are, not

You know, our Christian Judeo notion of universal human rights and the unique dignity and worth of the individual, freedom of religion, freedom of association, rule of law, all of this. They're not interested in that. They want a world dominated by power and the state. And they're hooking up with Russia. They're hooking up with Iran. They're hooking up with North Korea. And this was something that had to be counted. And, you know, standing up to China when they're your biggest trading partner, you

It takes some strength, and we found it, and the Australian population, public, backed me very strongly on that. Now, I'm pleased that there's some dialogue between us and China, but I know that their strategy hasn't changed, their intention hasn't changed, and we need to be really wary. So let's talk COVID. Yeah. Because I've got to say, as an American, the view from here was that Australia was very locked down.

that people were being arrested for driving too many miles from their home and that it was, you know, we felt like we had restrictions here, but you and I have talked about there are different states. You had different states to deal with. It was almost like we had 50 different versions of what was happening here. There were attempts at a federal, you know, vaccine mandate on a number of fronts here in the U.S. That's not something you supported in Australia, but...

But lessons learned from that, anything you would have done differently? Oh, look, a couple of things. But you're right. In Australia, like in the United States, it's a federation. So the health powers in particular all rested with state premiers, not with the federal government. And so the ability to instruct them as to what they – you had to rule by persuasion, not through force of law in most cases. And in Victoria, our southernmost state, mainland state –

I say in the book, I think they went way too far on many of their restrictions. Vaccine mandates was not a federal policy. It was pursued unilaterally by some states. The only areas where we believed that there needed to be vaccines was when people were working in very sensitive health environments, aged care facilities, things like that. But outside of that, no, people should be able to get on and lead their lives.

And you learned a lot along the way during COVID. No one knew anything about this thing for a very long time. And I remember the prospect of a vaccine in 2020. There'd never been one. And so we're all trying to work out, well, how on earth do we just keep our societies functioning, our economies functioning? And for Australia, when you compare the average rate of death from COVID during the pandemic

to the OECD average. So countries just like Australia, the United States, Korea, New Zealand, et cetera.

our death rate should have been 30,000 higher than it was. So we saved 30,000 lives, but equally I'm pleased that we saved businesses and livelihoods. We had more people employed at the end of COVID than we did at the start. We kept our businesses in place. We gave them supports and similar to some of the supports we've done here in the United States. And so we came through it with a strong economy, saved a lot of lives. Our economy snapped back

which that was the plan. And we endured better than most countries and were seen as a bit of the gold standard. That's not to say everything was the way you'd want it. I was very opposed to the closure of schools, very opposed to that, because there was no health advice that I received that supported that. But on some of the border closures, didn't like them on the eastern states where there's a lot of the population. But in the western half of the country, it probably made sense.

So what now? What's the next chapter for you? Well, I'll let God write that, I suppose. But now I've retired from politics. I left the parliament in the end of February. Is there a relief in that? Is there a sort of a sigh like, okay, I gave those years, I checked that box? Yeah. I mean, your family pays a big price for your time in politics. I write early in the book about Prime Minister Tony Abbott, who was the first prime minister. I was in his cabinet.

He used to say that we're volunteers, our family are conscripts. And I think that's true. So, you know, my daughters are still teenagers and so they're 14 and 16 now, going on to 27 and 29 it feels sometimes immediately. But, you know, this is an important time in their lives and so I'm pleased to be around a lot more than I used to.

It's great to be back involved in my local church life again, which was always very difficult to do in all of my political roles. But I've gone into the private sector and doing some things there, teaming up with good mates like Mike Pompeo on a few ventures and Ambassador Robert O'Brien, who I do some work with, and over here as well, as well as some more general advisory work in the Indo-Pacific. Because the world has become so complicated and business –

national security, geopolitics. You've got to understand all these things now because if you're particularly a larger company operating globally. And so Robert and I and Mike and others, we help those businesses sort of navigate that path. But it does mean I get to play golf on a Monday morning. All right. And see your family.

Well, the book is called Plans for Your Good, a Prime Minister's Testimony of God's Faithfulness. It is full of truth, transparency, difficult moments, beautiful, joyful moments and packed with scripture and your very transparent story of your own faith. So congratulations on the book. And thank you for stopping by Live in the Bream. Well, it's great to be here and all the best with the podcast. And hopefully quite a few people in Australia will tune in and stay tuned.

Listen ad-free with the Fox News Podcast plus subscription on Apple Podcasts. And Amazon Prime members can listen to this show ad-free on the Amazon Music app. Put the power of over 100 meteorologists and the worldwide resources of Fox in your hands with the Fox Weather Podcast. Precise, personal, powerful. Subscribe and listen now at foxnewspodcasts.com or wherever you get your podcasts.