Defeating The Spiritual Enemy
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It's Live in the Bream with the host of Fox News Sunday, Shannon Bream. We are welcoming back someone to Live in the Bream today who's got a brand new book. And I got to tell you, I joked with him, but it's true. It's about a topic that not everybody wants to talk about, but everybody needs to talk about. So we want to welcome back Jonathan Pakluta, or JP. He's the lead pastor of Harris Creek Baptist Church in Waco.

He's got phenomenal books out there. He's got a fantastic podcast. He does a whole lot of things and does them well, but he's also very transparent about his journey through this whole thing. And his brand new book is Your Story Has a Villain. Identify spiritual warfare and learn how to defeat the enemy. JP, why did you want to tackle this topic?

Shannon, thank you so much for having me on the show and even having this conversation, as you said, that so many people don't want to talk about. And that's why, because I was raised in the church. I was raised Catholic, Catholic school for nine years.

My mom was Lutheran, I was involved in a Baptist youth group, so lots of church all around me. And in the Catholic church, you would see statues of kind of angels and demons. And so there was a foundational knowledge there. And then when I left, they say I went to college and did what is sadly the normal college life. They say drug, sex, and rock and roll, in my case, drug, sex, and hip hop. And then I was at a club 22 years ago, someone invited me to church, I sat in the back row hungover.

and began to wrestle with what I really believe about Jesus. I would say I came to faith, I had a relationship with Jesus, I was discipled, I was growing in the faith. But the church that I was at at the time, we didn't really talk about the supernatural much. It wasn't charismatic or Pentecostal. I don't have that in my background.

And so five years ago, our family moved to Waco, and I found myself using words like stronghold. It seems like there's a spiritual stronghold here. And people were like, well, what do you mean by that? And I was like, well, I'm not really sure, but it's the only words I have. And so I had to grow my dictionary of understanding in my theological terms, and I just kind of did a deep dive into the scriptures, sought out who are the experts on the topic, tried to find –

a healthy understanding of what does the Bible actually talk about and teach about spiritual warfare. And that was the birth of this book.

Well, and I found it encouraging just in starting to read the book to say like, okay, this guy's a pastor. I mean, he's educated. He's doing the thing he's leading. And even he, you know, was very open to admit, okay, I don't totally understand how all of this works and what this is. So in your own deep dive, you then end up sharing with the rest of us what you've learned. And let's start with the fact that some people are just intimidated by the topic or the idea or think like, gosh, if I even look into this, is it going to, you know, invite it into my life? Well,

You know, you're telling us there's spiritual warfare going on all around you all the time already.

Absolutely, without a doubt. And that was the thing C.S. Lewis said, there's two errors in which we make about the devils. He said one is believing too much of them that they're involved in everything and giving them more power than they actually have. And he goes the second is not even acknowledging them or thinking about it at all. And I think there's a third error that we're most guilty of in 2025, which

which is to believe that there are demons, to believe that the demonic exists, and then for that belief to have zero implications on anything we do think or believe. And that's where I think most of us live today, even in the church. And so, yes, a great example of this is if someone goes to their car and they're gonna go to church that morning and they turn the key and their car doesn't start and they say, "Oh man, my battery is dead."

you know, hashtag spiritual warfare, I'm kind of approaching it like, well, wait, what can demons do? Can they drain your car battery? Did they leave your door open, your light on? Did they have to pop your hood to do that? Like, what can they actually do? And I think there's a lot of us, even theologians today that kind of sit under the banner. Well, we can't actually know. And I would say there's a lot that we can know. The Bible answers a lot of these questions and can get us

closer to where I think we want to believe. Yeah, and you know, the verses are very graphic, some of them, you know, this idea of a lion seeking whom he may devour. I mean, there's definitely an aim at coming after you. It's not as if we just sort of float through life. I mean, there are, you know, enemies that want to steal your joy, to make you question your faith, to make you question the existence of God. I mean, all of those things.

That's right. You know, first Peter five says your enemy, the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour and says, resist him standing firm in the faith. And that's a big takeaway in my research is just this idea that we're to stand firm in the midst of temptation. When we face temptation, the demonic are involved and they're,

You know, they're trying to keep us out of an abundant life that Christ has to offer us. In John 10, 10, the thief comes to steal, kill and destroy. But Jesus says, I've come to so that they might have life and have it to the fullest. And that gives me a lot of hope that that there is this amazing, abundant life.

exciting life out there. And I think a lot of Christians, followers of Jesus, never even find it. Like they settle for this kind of lukewarm Christianity of going through the motions and they never find the joy of the Lord. They live under the defeat of the enemy. And I'm saying, hey, there's more out there. Like I've tasted and seen that the Lord is good and I just, I want everyone to do the same. So how are we to, if people are open to this and believe that this is real,

How are we to make judgments about things? Say you're going through a time of anxiety or depression or real trial. How do we discern, you know, what's life just unfolding the way life unfolds versus some kind of spiritual battle? I mean, how do we walk through that and have clear eyes about what is or isn't happening? Yeah, well, the good news is I don't know that you need to. Like, I don't know that you have to come to

a level of great clarity to address the issue. So there's mind, body and soul. And so there's our mind, there's our thinking, there's our body, there's our health, our physical being. And then there's our soul, that's the spiritual realm, our sin nature. We know of the Holy Trinity being the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Well, the unholy Trinity is the world, our flesh and the enemy.

Our flesh, or our sin nature, longs for the things of the world, and the enemy dangles the things of the world in front of our flesh so that we will pursue those instead of the things of the kingdom. We were all made to live forever. As evidence of that, we grieve when we lose somebody. The reason that we grieve when we experience loss is because there's something deep within us that knows that that shouldn't be, that we were made to live forever and ever and ever and ever.

The enemy loves when we experience loss. He loves when we experience grief. And that's the despair that he's chasing after. So it could be that my brain is not producing enough serotonin and therefore I'm feeling anxious or depressed. And it's just a physical brain issue. It's a dysfunction within my body and it's nothing more than that.

But we can be sure that the enemy or the demonic realm is going to use that to further discourage us, that we would think more of that than we need to, that we would be pressed further and further into depression or that we wouldn't, you know, pursue the things of God. He's going to, you know, if if an aspect of this is that we have to turn to God in prayer or seek out a therapist or to seek out medication,

He's going to create all kinds of insecurities in us as we consider those things because they just speak lies. That's their native tongue. So they're constantly trying to drive us to questioning everything, discouragement, and really ultimately keeping us from pursuing the things of God.

Yeah, because you talk about something that you saw as a kid, a movie that was kind of scary that your grandma had about. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, it can be much more subtle than that movie scene we may think of. That's right. I asked somebody recently, I was doing an interview and I just asked someone, I said, hey, if a demon showed up in your room and like you saw like the scary monster object, you know, whatever that is that we picture and they showed up in your room and you had a dialogue with it. So would your faith in God increase or decrease?

And they said, "Well, I guess it would increase because I would tangibly see something." I said, "Well, exactly." So Satan, if that's the case, I mean, they're smart. If that's the case, then they want to remain under this kind of parody or allegory that Hollywood presents to us so that when we think about it, we think about it almost like in a horrific terms of a scary movie, not in a literal term.

that is impacting me today. But if there is a spiritual realm, if spiritual warfare is real, then it has implications for every single thing that we do. And his number one strategy is just to keep us out of the full life that Christ offers us.

And, you know, unfortunately for a lot of people, for a lot of listeners right now, He's winning. He's winning. The day has gotten, we've gotten this far into it and we haven't even given consideration to what God might have for us today. The mission before us, the healing that He may desire for us, the joy that the Spirit has for us. And so if that's the case,

In that area, in our lives, the enemy's winning. He's keeping us from those things. But if we can begin to think like, okay, I have an enemy.

He hates me. He hates my marriage. He hates my children, whether that marriage exists yet or not, whether those children have been born yet or not. He hates when I experience joy in the Lord. He doesn't want me connected to God's people. He's going to try to drive me toward isolation. This is the strategy he's running, and yet God has all of these things for me. If I can begin with that kind of foundational baseline belief, that's the beginning of victory. Now I can begin to start walking toward and seeking out the things that

that God has for me. But yeah, I think he's constantly trying to convince us that he either doesn't exist or it doesn't matter if he does. We'll have more Live in the Bream in a moment.

Thousands of U.S. businesses like Fender, Bissell, and Herman Miller are increasing their sales by reaching over 1 billion consumers globally on Alibaba's online marketplace. In just one year alone, American businesses sold billions of dollars worth of goods on Alibaba's e-commerce platforms. More sales mean more American jobs, higher wages, and a stronger U.S. economy. Learn more at alibabapowersbusinesses.com.

Again, we're talking to Pastor Jonathan Pakluta, JP. His new book, Your Story Has a Villain, identifies spiritual warfare and learn how to defeat the enemy. And we will get to those tools. But I just wanted to touch on one other thing that you sort of flag. I mean, this desensitization idea. And gosh, we're so overwhelmed. Our senses with such an onset of stimulus and information, right?

And it can become that we are sort of dead to things that might have shocked us, might have struck us as a bad idea, a temptation, a sin. I mean, we do get desensitized. I mean, that's one of the tools that the enemy will try to use to get us off track. Yeah, that's so true. I can remember when Columbine happened, just the whole world stopped when there was a school shooting there.

And now it's so sad, the casual nature that someone might say, oh, look, another school shootings in the news. And that's just an example of any kind of tragedy, any kind of devastation in our world. When we see it for the first time, it's much bigger than when we see it the 12th time or the 27th time. And the same thing happens with evil. When we experience evil once, it's rather astonishing. But

But when it infiltrates our world and in such a way that it's all around us, all of the sudden it becomes the norm. This should not be. They call it, you know, the kind of the frog and water effect. I don't know if it's true or not, but kind of the parable is if you slowly boil the water that a frog's in, it won't jump out. It will actually be boiled alive because the temperature is changing so slowly. Well, this is the same thing, the same tactic that the enemy uses.

is running. He's read the back of the book, Shannon. He knows Revelation. He knows that his destiny is the lake of fire, that he's going to be destroyed in hell or go to hell forever. And so he's running this scorched earth strategy. He's trying to keep people from faith in God and those who have faith in God, he's trying to keep them from the full life that Christ offers. And so he's just trying to burn it all to the ground. And that's the world that we're being desensitized to.

So with all this in mind, we are not powerless. In fact, we are very powerful. So let's talk through part three of the book. You talk about, of course, we think about the armor of God. For those of us who are part of the church, part of the faith, you know, you've probably heard and learned Ephesians 6, you know, this whole outline of what we have at our disposal. And it's not just that, but that's a great place to start.

Yeah. Let me just say to your listeners, I'm not, you know, I'm not a by faith kind of guy, meaning I don't, I don't love naivety. Sometimes feel like doubting Thomas, like I would want to stick my, my hands in the, in the, the nail holes of Christ. You know, I want to see it to believe it. And, and, and so when I attend a church service and someone is like, you got to put on the armor of God, you know, buckle the belt of truth around your waist, put on the breastplate of righteousness and,

I'm a little bit like, how? - I went to Havana. That's where I heard about this. - Am I just like pretending? Like, am I just pretending to get dressed? Is that, and now that scares the enemy off? I think what is happening there is the Apostle Paul, as he writes this to the church in Ephesus, he's on house arrest in Rome, most likely chained to a Roman soldier, or at least there's Roman soldiers walking around outside his place.

And so he's seeing them and he uses that as an illustration. And really what it says in the Greek is put on the full armor of God. Like, so there's not one article and then the next. It's like all of this is necessary. What I believe he's saying, Shannon, is these are the marks of an authentic Christian.

And I've talked to, again, I don't have a Pentecostal or charismatic background. And so in the research of this, you know, I've talked to guys who are kind of specialized in deliverance and even exorcisms. And it's interesting because all of that's kind of spooky and scary and like weird. What does that mean? But when you talk to them, really their application is like just live the Christian life, like just actually be a Christian and you're protected because the enemy is

He's not afraid of me. You know, he doesn't fear JP. He's terrified of God. You know, in Psalm 23, the pronouns change. It says, the Lord is my shepherd. You know, he makes me lie down in green pastures. But when he gets to the, as I walk to the valley of the shadow of death, I will not fear because you, now he starts talking to God.

There's intimacy there because you are with me. So in the valley of the shadow of death, the solution is to draw near to God, like nearness to God. I'm going to go through this really quick because you asked in Ephesians 6. So I think what it's saying is that we as followers of Jesus are to operate in the truth, to live truthfully.

a righteous life that we are to share the gospel that we are to I'm operate with with faith at the says the shield the faith the faith protects us which i think is really key in understanding all of this that we're to the helmet a salvation that were to internalize salvation reflect

on the reality that we're not home yet, that we're gonna be with God forever and ever and ever and ever, that we're to operate by the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, meaning we should know what the scriptures teach. Satan lies to us. We have to combat those lies with the truths of the scripture, and then we should never stop praying. You know, that's where it all ends. He's like, hey, and don't stop praying.

And I'll highlight this idea, the shield of faith. Jesus says to Peter, you know, the enemy has asked me to sift you like wheat. So I will pray for you that your faith would increase. I think that Satan is powerless toward us in direct correlation to how much we believe and trust in him.

in God. The more that we believe and trust in God, the greater our faith, the less the enemy can seek to steal, kill and destroy, the less he can attack us. You talk about resistance training too. I mean, there is this idea that when temptation comes, I mean, we have to build those muscles when the attacks come so that we're ready. And, you know, resistance training is part of what we do physically, but we can do it spiritually too.

Absolutely. Yeah, it's just like, you know, at first you, if you haven't done pushups in a long time and you try to do, you know, you may get one or two and then just collapse to the ground. But if you do pushups every day, that one and two is going to become three and four and that three and four is going to become 12 and 15 and then 30 and then 50 and then 100. And you're just, you're building up strength. Temptation is similar. This is why Jesus calls us to fast. He says, when you fast,

Because when we fast, we're not following the desires of our flesh. We're not just saying, oh, this is my urge, so I'm going to satisfy it. And when the enemy comes to us, you know, in Matthew 4, Jesus is face to face with Satan.

Which, interestingly enough, I don't know that Satan's ever been anywhere near any of us. He's not omnipresent. He you know, there's demons in the spiritual realm. But but I think Satan's kind of in one place at one time. He's probably in a place of war or something like if if Vladimir Putin said, I'm going to I'm going to, you know,

move into, you know, create war against Ukraine, it's not him. He's leading an army to do that. It's not he himself. He's, you know, he's in an office somewhere safe. He's not firing a gun or shooting a missile. It's soldiers that are doing that. I think Satan kind of operates in the same way against our lives. And so as we resist him, that's what we see over and over in the scripture.

we're strengthening our resolve to stand against the enemy. We don't have to believe his lies. We don't have to do what he says. We don't have to just succumb to temptation every single time. We can resist him standing firm in the face. And 1 Peter 5, back to that verse, it says, and he will flee. He will leave us alone. He's like a stray cat. When you feed a stray cat, you now have a

you now have a pet cat, you know, they're going to hang around. But if you don't feed him, you know, if you resist it, then he's going to go to the next house. He's going to go look for someone who will. Well, listen, I almost didn't finish reading beyond the beginning of that chapter because you talked about giving up desserts. Yeah, I know. He's a lot stronger than I am. I'm not doing that for a year. No, my flesh is weak. The spirit is strong, but my flesh is weak.

Well, goodness, there's so much helpful material. And you know, if this is one of those topics that you're like, gosh, I need to dig into this. I need to know more. Or if you think you got a pretty good handle, but you need some encouragement to this book, your story has a villain.

is out in January. And JP, tell us where we can find the book. We can find your podcast, everything else that you're doing that folks can keep up with you. Yeah, you can get this book anywhere books are sold. You know, of course, it's on Amazon, but also in your favorite bookstore. And if it's not, please ask them to carry it. I would appreciate it.

And then I, you know, I answer questions every Friday on Instagram. So it's at Jay Pakluta. And then, you know, just so you can remember all of this, Jonathan Pakluta dot com is kind of just the aggregate of all of the different handles and social media and whatnot. So you're welcome to go there. Well, thank you for taking this on, doing the research, giving us some encouragement in the process and for all you do. Thanks, JP. Yeah.

You're so great at what you do. Thank you for your joy and just infusing that into the world. I'm grateful. Listen ad-free with a Fox News Podcast Plus subscription on Apple Podcasts. And Amazon Prime members can listen to this show ad-free on the Amazon Music app.

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