Finding The Wonder In Faith
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pants, and outerwear. If you're looking for the performance dress shirt or polo that looks great all day, check out collarsandco.com. Use promo code Brian for 15% off of any purchase of $100 or more. That's promo code Brian. It's Live in the Bream with the host of Fox News Sunday, Shannon Bream. Welcome to this week's Live in the Bream. I get so excited when I see something new coming from this guest.

And I was so thrilled to see a new book coming across my desk because I'm a big fan. And I'm so glad that he's back on Live in the Bream. Today we have John Eldridge with us. His newest book, Experience Jesus. Really, if you know anything about him, you know he's a best-selling author, a counselor, a teacher. He's the president of Wild at Heart.

It's a ministry devoted to helping people discover the heart of God, recover their own hearts in God's love and learn to live in God's kingdom. John and his wife, Stacy live in Colorado Springs, Colorado. And I don't know where you are today, John, but welcome back. Oh, thanks Shannon. It's good to talk to you again.

Listen, you are always so good at resetting us. We live in this modern world, which your book is all about. That is easily distracting. And you talk about us turning into disciples of the Internet, and that can mean a lot of different things. What does it mean in the context of this new book?

Oh my gosh. Yeah, it's not the content. It's just that all of us use this process all day long, every day. And what it's baked into us is, first off, instant answers to everything, right? Right. You get three million answers in less than a second. And our souls have lost the capacity to linger, to enjoy quiet,

Right. Especially to kind of tune in to the presence of God with us. So this, yeah, the madness of the current moment has really made some of the richest parts of the experience of the Christian life almost impossible for most people because they're so spun up.

Mm-hmm. It's true to even make yourself sit down, which is why for me, quiet time is first thing in the morning, usually before I even hop in the shower or anything else, because once that phone gets going and the world intrudes, it's really hard, like you said, to linger in prayer or to try to linger in the presence of God. And if that's where all of our true contentment and peace and all of those things are really found, we're short-circuiting ourselves every time we sort of

skip over reading or study or prayer or rush through it if we're lucky on a crazy day. But we just kind of lost the ability to sit still in our brains and physically even. Yeah. And I'm glad you brought the brain thing too, because it's also given us an overdeveloped left brain approach to faith and life in God, right? It's all content, content, content. And

We are neglecting the life of the heart. And Blaise Pascal, I think you know, is a brilliant mathematician, scientist. He had a phenomenal encounter with Jesus late in life, which is how he became a Christian. And he said that faith is God perceived by the heart. It's just this rich, lovely tradition down through, you know, kind of the saints of ages past of this heart to heart connection between

That it, you know, this current moment makes it hard for people to get back to. But the good news is it's the very thing that's going to rescue us from the crazy. And we do need rescuing. Most of us. I know that I do. And I feel like and you're so good at getting to this in your teaching, in your books, in

the idea of kind of recovering some wonder and some awe, we're all just sort of stripping through life as quickly as possible. Everybody's got different responsibilities. Everybody's trying to hold together their families and their budgets and their lives and their careers and whatever it is they're doing. But, you know, I was stopped in my tracks the other night by a sunset. And I thought, how long has it been since I just stopped and was like, wow, look at that. And I

I think that our digital distractions, of course, contribute to losing any sense of awe or wonder, which I think is one of the best ways that we connect with, hey, it's not about me. There's actually something bigger and much better and someone bigger and better out there who's actually running the show. Yeah. And beauty, beauty is a good off ramp, right? When you have moments of beauty, grab them. Beautiful music, beautiful sunsets, beautiful people, right?

That can be a wonderful off-ramp from the busy into kind of the contemplative, almost like mystic approach, you know, that the Christian faith had for so many centuries. You know, the other thing the Internet life has done to us is it's made us really hard to trust anymore.

Because, you know, today's facts get overturned tomorrow and you've got the latest expert telling you, no, no, that's not the way to exercise. You're hurting your body. True. Yeah. And it's baked into all of us a suspicion.

Which is why I think Jesus pointed to children, because they do have access to awe and wonder, and they do have access to trust. They tend to live more from the heart than critical reasoning. And I believe in critical reasoning. I'm not dissing it, but I'm saying the recovery of a heart-to-heart connection, the recovery of the capacity simply to believe,

is going to be a lifeline for many people. We'll have more Live in the Bream in a moment.

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That's oracle.com slash C-A-I-N. And we're talking to John Eldridge, counselor, teacher, author.

New York Times bestselling author, the newest book, Experience Jesus, really, you talk about childlike faith and that is a goal. And it seems in some ways that's directly in opposition to this cynical worldview that says, look out for yourself. You can't trust anybody. Everybody's a bad actor. That's just not a good place to live. It's not a good space to walk in. But we have become, as you said, untrusting and cynical people.

How do we get back there? Are there practical ways we can reclaim any of that childlike faith and wonder? The beautiful thing is this, is that God has been pursuing your heart ever since you were a child. And he is in the things you love.

So for some people, it is nature. You know, it's getting to the beach. It's getting to the lake. For some people, it's music. For some people, it's literature. Right. For some people, it is science. They love getting into the data. God is in that. And what the childlike heart opens up to is, oh, you are right here with me right now.

And we learn to, the Carmelite friar, Brother Lawrence, wrote that definitive book, Practicing the Presence of God. We just begin to tune in to, you're with me in this lunch. You're with me as I go into this meeting. But you are especially wooing my heart through the very things that make me come alive. And what I can do now is what you did with the sunset, is that you pause and you go, oh, there you are.

Thank you. I love you too. And we just begin to love him back.

And you say this, this is broad ranging. This is about our spiritual health. It's about our mental health. I mean, we've got an epidemic of anxiety and depression and certainly COVID and a worldwide pandemic and such extreme loss for so many people, loved ones and jobs and careers and kids, you know, their schools and their structures, their communities. I mean, it threw everybody for a loop, but man, it seems like we're really at a place of high level anxiety. Yeah.

Yeah. You know what? And Shannon, especially young people, one in every two young people now report an anxiety disorder. But I don't think that's about their weakness. I think they're the canary in the coal mine. I think that what that's telling us is we are living in extremely difficult times on the human soul. And now here's where the magic comes in. So if you read the saints of ages past, they would tell you that the soul is healed by

through union with Christ. And the idea, you know, this is divine and branch. This is the revelation 320. You know, I knock at the door, let me in. As we learn to come into a very lovely union with Christ in our hearts, what we're discovering, I've been a therapist now for 35 years. This is literally healing human trauma.

Because the soul needs a safe place. It needs a place of love. It needs a place of assurance. And this is that Psalm 91, you know, coming into the shelter of the Most High. As we begin to experience a very simple intimacy and union with Christ, our soul, the anxiety comes down. The fear comes down. The need to self-protect comes down.

because we find ourselves in a safe place with his presence. And it's hard to find a safe place for a lot of people. But again, that requires us stopping and sitting and resting, which has become so antithetical to most of us in the way that we run through lives. You also say in the book that modern life encourages shallow pragmatism. What do you mean by that? And how does it impact our faith?

Oh, my God. Right. Well, because we are all running, we need quick answers. And the internet's going to give you the quick answer. Okay, what's the proper temperature to bake a potato again? What do I need to do for my kids ADHD? And how much B12 am I supposed to be taking? Right.

And it just brings us down to this very functional pragmatism day-to-day. But as you were saying we lose the wonder we lose the intimacy and we lose what is literally the nourishment. So here's what I'm suggesting is that you create a little bit of sacred space every day. No screens, no technology.

and not a lot of content, okay? And in that sacred space, you begin to learn again to practice and enjoy the presence of Jesus, who's right here. He's right here with you. And in fact, he lives in the depths of your being as you open your heart to him.

And there's nothing functional about it. We're not trying to, here's the point, you're not trying to get an answer to a question. You're not trying to fix a problem. Because what we do with our spiritual life is we rush to God like Google. And we go, okay, I need this and I need that. And what am I supposed to do with this?

I'm saying have a little sacred space and maybe it's your cup of coffee at the window. Maybe it's a little bit of quiet music in the evening. And instead of looking for answers or solving problems, you're just enjoying again, what the old saints would call communion, union and communion with Christ. Now your soul is going to take this like a duck to water because you're made for it. He's the vine, you're the branch.

This doesn't take a lot, five minutes a day. Wow. But then five minutes becomes 10 because you love it so much. Suddenly you find yourself doing it in your commute on your way to work, you know, and you find yourself doing it in the middle of the day. This lovely, I'm not looking for answers. I'm not trying to solve anything, fix anything. I'm just enjoying your love with me.

And that union, suddenly I've got more energy for the rest of the day. I've got less panic. I'm just in a better place to answer, you know, all these emails that are coming at me. Yeah, I got to admit, when you say commute, oh, the Lord would probably like me to pray a lot more during that time and sit with him during that time. You're in D.C.?

Oh, I just, oh, that would be quite a challenge, but I'm not going to rule it out. I think it would just take a lot, but he is capable and able. I am not.

The commute would be a massive makeover if I really could just rest in those moments. Again, we're talking to John Eldredge, New York Times bestselling author, counselor, teacher. Latest book is Experience Jesus, Really? Finding Refuge, Strength, and Wonder Through Everyday Encounters with God. Now, I got to ask you, you referenced this earlier in the book talks about the idea of an ordinary mystic.

And some people within the Christian faith, more newer to this, we're not talking historically, which you referenced a bit, they hear the word mystic or mystical, and they're a little skeptical of that. What do you mean? I know. It sounds like woo-woo, right? I'm using the word to pull us out of that internet, left brain, hypercritical, hyper suspicious posture, because you hand a child an ice cream bar.

And they're going to grab it and run over to their favorite little corner and unwrap it. And they're just going to savor it. You know, they're going to be so happy. Their little feet kicking. You hand an adult the same exact ice cream bar. And the first thing they do is they flip it over and start reading the contents. Yes. Yes.

Oh, gosh. And then, you know, is this fair trade? And how many, you know, protein? How many fat grams have I got? Yeah. Yeah. And is it saturated or unsaturated fat? And by then, folks, the joy is gone. The joy is gone. The ordinary mystic is the person who is able to enjoy the presence of God as a tangible reality, as an abiding being.

presence in their life without needing to solve everything. There's a

a simplicity and a loveliness to it. There's an intimacy to it that you get. You see it all through the scriptures. You see it in John. You see it in Mary Magdalene. Yeah. You know, you hear it in the life of Paul. You certainly hear it in the Psalms. Oh, my goodness. The Psalms are filled with intimate conversation with God. And we can get back to this.

Everyone has this capacity in them. That's the good news. You're actually made for this. So now they're discovering the neuroplasticity of the brain. You can actually reprogram your brain.

from the crazy and the flurry, and you can become a more peaceful person as you kind of practice. Yeah, I'm calling it sort of ordinary mystic. It's the simple communion with Christ that you read about in the scriptures and you read about in the life of the saints.

I love that you say that there is hope for us because I think everybody who feels so frenetic and frazzled and you think, well, this is just who I am. I'm easily distracted. I've got a million different things going on. We all have a bunch of responsibilities. But you're telling us we can actually make changes to the way we think, the way that we operate. It takes some dedication, it sounds like, and some intention, right?

But it is possible to change the way that you feel like you're flying through life. Yes. Start small because the big resolutions never last, right? I'm going to be on the carnivore diet or I'm going to do Pilates every day. Start small. Start small. That's why I'm suggesting five minutes a day of sacred space because, again, because of the neuroplasticity of the brain, but particularly because of the pliability of the soul,

Shannon, I used to be the most driven, angry guy. And I worked in D.C. And that'll do it to you. It will. If you let it. Harry Truman said, if you want a friend in D.C., buy a dog. But over time, over time, these simple practices of beauty and

and quiet, the simple practices of gratitude, but particularly enjoying the presence of God. I love my life. And I have a lot to do. I got a lot to do today. But I'm not charging into it in a frantic place anymore. And that's a lovely, hopeful thought.

It is. And listen, our audience I know is all over the world, but when you talk to people in D.C., you know what it's like here. Everybody's trying to one-up. Everyone's trying to network. Everything is very transactional. I do think having a dog is a good idea in D.C. We have Biscuit Bream. And she is, you know, she's around to give hugs and to encourage anyone if you need it here in the D.C. region. But it is a place of striving. And I think as, you know, you can speak to this because you were somebody who was in this place.

And I think it's really hard for people who are driven and ambitious to find a way to balance that with peace, with calm, with remembering what you're about is building the kingdom of God when what we're told every day is to build our own kingdoms. And that's the goal for every single day of your life based on Western society right now.

Yeah, you can pay now or you can pay more later. This is one of the basic lessons of life. Yeah, you can put it on your credit card, but you're going to pray twice. You can ignore your low-grade anxiety, but you're going to pay for it. You can ignore your low-grade anger, but you're going to pay for it. And so, yeah, you can go ahead and flog your soul like it's a workhorse and

But you'll pay for that. You'll pay for it in your health. Right. And you'll pay for it in your mental health. The beautiful thing is, is that your pain is probably the biggest change agent in your life. When you get to the point where you say, I just don't want to live like this anymore. Or when your spouse says, where did your joy go?

You know, a lot of fun to be around. Something's going to happen, folks, your anxieties going up, you know, your coping isn't working, the drivenness isn't producing, listen to your pain, and let it lead you back to the cure of the soul. And this is what's so beautiful. All of my work in the work on this new book, Shannon actually came out of the treating of trauma,

Because I want to see people who are in trauma or trauma loop or, you know, the cascade effects of trauma. I want to see them better. And what we're discovering is that what the old saints knew and the ordinary mystics down through the church. And these are famous, famous people. Teresa of Avila, Juno of Norwich, John of the Cross, you know, is that the soul is healed through union with Christ. So the very thing you feel like you can't conquer, right?

As your soul practices union with God, it heals your physical ability to be less driven, to be less distracted. This is so hopeful. And the good news is God's been healing human souls for thousands of years, folks. He's really good at it. Yeah. Thank goodness. Thank God.

Okay, so we've been talking to John Eldridge today. The book is Experience Jesus Really, Finding Refuge, Strength, and Wonder Through Everyday Encounters with God. As you mentioned, you're a busy man. You and Stacey have all kinds of wonderful things you're putting into the world. So please tell us where to find the book, where to find the other things that you're up to so we can stay in touch.

Yeah, you're so kind, Shannon. So wherever you get your books, folks, you might think about the audio book because I read it and I get to rip and I get to tell some stories. So that's kind of fun. Yeah. If people want to find us, I'm known as the Wild at Heart guy. So we are wild at heart dot org. Fantastic. And, you know, one of the things that I love on there when I've needed moments of really feeling loved

a little bit more centering and peace is the prayers that you guys have too. And the audio versions that you guys have recorded. And I have listened to those many times, um, in times of just wanting to have peace and be well-centered and really focused on what matters. So thank you for those. They're a really special thing on the website, along with everything else we have going on and congrats on the new book. Thank you for the work you guys do.

Hey, Shannon, I'm really proud of you. You're doing a great job of navigating a responsible life in a busy world, but also cultivating your own soul. And you're inviting other people into it. I just want to say, well done, girl.

Thank you so much. You have made my entire week. Thank you. I so appreciate you guys. Well done. Well, thank you for joining us on this week's Live in the Bream. And we hope to see what you're up to again very soon. We'll check it out at wildatheart.org. Thanks, John. Okay, Shannon. Listen ad-free with the Fox News Podcast plus subscription on Apple Podcasts. And Amazon Prime members can listen to this show ad-free on the Amazon Music app.

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