God Never Gives Up On You: A Conversation With Pastor Max Lucado
23:50 Share

It's time to take the quiz. Five questions, five minutes a day, five days a week. Take the quiz every weekday at thequiz.fox and then listen to the quiz podcast to find out how you did. Play, share, and of course, listen to the quiz at thequiz.fox. It's Live in the Bream with the host of Fox News Sunday, Shannon Bream.

Today, I'm so excited to welcome back one of my favorite people on the planet and certainly one of my favorite Live in the Berean guests. Pastor Max Lucado is back with us with a brand new book called God Never Gives Up on You. What Jacob's story teaches us about grace, mercy, and God's relentless love. You know him as a pastor, a speaker, a bestselling author, millions of books out there encouraging all of us all over the world.

into dozens of languages and countries around the world. He's been a pastor himself around the world. Max Lucado, welcome back.

Shannon, you're so kind. Thank you a thousand times over for letting me have these moments to chat. And hello to your wonderful audience. Listen, we are all so encouraged by you. That's the word I always use about you because you speak truth. We all need that. That's part of the equation. But with such an encouraging voice, and I love the premise of this book because it's really the idea that it doesn't matter how much we've sinned or gotten off track or messed up.

willfully disobeyed, fallen into some horrible thing and side path we didn't intend to go on. It doesn't matter that God can still redeem us and use our stories. And that's everybody in the Bible. The only blameless person there is Jesus. So tell us about Jacob because he's a great example of a flawed individual who God used for mighty things.

He may be the best example in the Bible. You're right. Everybody in the Bible had their stumbles and their fumbles. But Jacob, it's just striking when you read his story, how many poor choices he made. Give me two minutes just to give the context, okay? Please. Because people might have forgotten. Jacob was Abraham's grandson.

God made a promise to Abraham that through Abraham, he would bless the world. And my goodness, has he not kept that covenant? It was through the descendants of Abraham that we have the Bible, that we have Moses, that we have David, that we have Esther. Most of all, that we have our Savior, Jesus Christ. The grandson of Jacob then is right in line to continue to be a curator, a purveyor of

of that promise. And so we would think that a grandson of Jacob would be a great Moses level man of God. And in this case, Jacob is anything but. He's number two in a set of twins. His older brother Esau was born just a second before he was.

Jacob wanted to be firstborn and his mother wanted him to be firstborn. And his mother had received the word from the Lord that he would be treated like he was firstborn, but they had to expedite things. And the story's off and running with Jacob swindling his brother, lying to his father, and then going into hiding. And it sets the tone for the entire life of Jacob.

It's a rock and roll story. It really is. And you find so many times where we're kind of introduced to Jacob and, you know, we think about the parents, how they each kind of had their favorite son and how that set up so much trouble and deception and lying and double crossing, not only by Jacob, but as you talk about with his mother, helping him to double cross her own husband and,

You know, it's somebody that you think about, gosh, there's a lot of treachery there. And yet, and yet there is so much good that comes from the early promises and from God's ability to use whatever we're working with to his glory. And all the mishaps, you know, all the odd things that happen. You know, the story of Jacob going to Mesopotamia to get away from his brother and falling in love with his wife.

uncle's daughter, Rachel, and working seven years for her hand and going to the honeymoon only to wake up the first morning after the first night to realize he's been with Rachel's sister, Leah. It's just the most, it's so many twists and turns that you think, how could this happen? But

But the truth is this stuff happens. This is life. It's maybe not to the extreme that it was with Jacob. But the story is the constant in the story, from my perspective, Shannon, is God's presence. Jacob acted in bizarre ways and made poor decisions. But God was forever faithful to keep the promise he had made to Abraham through Jacob. And he never turned away from keeping his word.

Yeah, and to remind people about that part of the story, yeah, Jacob goes off. He immediately falls for Rachel, makes this deal. He's going to work seven years for her, does the seven years, gets the other sister, and then has to make a deal to work seven more years to get Rachel the one he thought he was initially going to get. And then she, too, gosh, through this story of Jacob, like you say, is wild. There are so many stories.

you know, wrestling with God in so many different ways and kind of making up his own rules. And, you know, Rachel making up her own rules when they later go on the run. He is not somebody who at one point is like, OK, I've totally messed up from here on out. I'm a straight arrow. Like he still has many bad decisions.

He never does that. In fact, you keep thinking, okay, one of these times, he's going to have the equivalent of a come to Jesus moment. He's going to walk the straight path from here on out, and it

To be honest, it never really happens. To me, the darkest chapter is the next to last chapter, Genesis 34, where the tribe of Jacob on their way back to Bethel make the mistake of stopping near a village called Shechem.

And it's just a terrible story. Diana, the daughter, the only daughter, is raped by the son of the king of Shechem. And their brothers retaliate. And it's a bloodbath. It's such a horrible story. Yeah. You say, why is this in the Bible? But then the very next chapter, God is mentioned 11 times in the first 15 verses.

He's not mentioned at all in Genesis 34, but he's mentioned in 35 when Jacob finally goes home. And to me, the message is God just won't give up. He just won't give up. You know, Shanna, I'm curious to know your thought on this. Statistically, only 4% of Americans don't believe in God. Only 4% of Americans say I'm an atheist. So it's not very big portion of our population.

But I wish there was another category of people who would say, I believe in God, but I'm not sure he believes in me. Because I have a feeling that's a chunk of our culture. They believe in a creator. They believe in a God. But it's just beyond them to think that God would believe in them. What do you think?

I think you're right. That's such a powerful message. I think for a lot of people, they do think there's something bigger. There's someone bigger out there. They have some concept of maybe a creator or somebody overseeing everything. But I think for people to really believe there's a personal connection, a God who sees you, knows the number of the hairs on your head, that he is for you, he is after you in the best possible way.

Just like he was about Jacob through all of this. I think you're right that a lot of people don't realize that God does believe in you and he's cheering for you. He wants a relationship with you. He wants good things for you. Now, that doesn't mean you're never going to have struggles in your life, but certainly he's pursuing you with a better way. And you can filter the mishaps and missteps and mistakes of life through the reality of a sovereign God.

Because I do not believe that Jacob had, it was not required that he spend those 20 years in exile. It wasn't required that he have such a dysfunctional family. I believe all of those were consequences of poor choices. But in spite of those poor choices, God's plan was still accomplished. The seed of Abraham was still blessed and the will of God was still done.

So it's not that we are promised we won't have any problems, but we can be assured that even through our missteps and mistakes, that God will accomplish what he sets out to do. We'll have more Live in the Bream in a moment. I'm Guy Benson. Join me weekdays at 3 p.m. Eastern as we break down the biggest stories of the day with some of the biggest newsmakers and guests. Listen live on the Fox News app or get the free podcast at GuyBensonShow.com.

We're talking to Max Lucado, his new book, God Never Gives Up on You, what Jacob's story teaches us about grace, mercy, and God's relentless love. I know you think it teaches us about forgiveness, too, for ourselves and for other people. Well, there was a time in which Jacob, in order to return to Canaan, to return to his home country, had to pass through the land of Esau.

Esau's the older brother that he cheated on.

And in order for him to get to the promised land, he had to come face to face with his past. And I think that's just a metaphor waiting to happen. In order for us to really move into the promises of God, we have to face our past as well. I think our past, especially the mistakes, the poor choices, the bad decisions, those prodigal years, they pull us back. We allow them to define us.

When if we would bring those and present those and confess those to God, what our heavenly father will allow us to do is see those through his grace. We can let him speak words of forgiveness over our past and set us free. Here's one occasion that Jacob did well. You know, he saw Esau. Of course, it didn't.

hurt that Esau had 400 militiamen with him. That kind of changes the conversation a little bit. So he was humble. He was rightfully humble. And he prostrated himself in front of Esau seven times and presented him with many gifts, basically saying, I'm sorry, I'm the jerk. I'm the one who messed up.

And only to find that God had already softened Esau's heart. And there was a wonderful moment of reconciliation. And that's what I think God wants for all of us. All of us have parts of our life that if we had the chance, we'd do it differently.

But God has already determined that he wants us to be a part of his family, and he will help us move forward by bringing grace and forgiveness over our past.

And I think so many people think, okay, the Bible is full of saints. It's full of people who were faithful from the beginning. They always got it right. But I think what you and I and so many others have such joy in is looking at people like Jacob and looking at people like David and so many others who, gosh, they did things that you wouldn't even believe would be in a script. You want to talk about dysfunctional families and

And, you know, somebody dressing up as a prostitute to sleep with her father-in-law, estranged father-in-law, getting pregnant by him with twins. I mean, a real Jerry Springer moment in that Old Testament story. You are the father. I mean, there are such crazy things that happen in the Bible, but you and I believe they're all divinely inspired and included there for a reason.

So what do you hope those stories in this book, God Never Gives Up On You, will say to people who think, unless I've got my whole act cleaned up in my life together, God doesn't want a relationship with me. Mm-hmm.

I know as you begin listing off your stories and I begin thinking of mine, I think about Peter who cursed Christ before he preached Christ. I mean, think about that. Peter, he preached the greatest sermon in history, but just days earlier had cursed that he even knew Jesus. Extraordinary. The apostle Paul before he was Paul was Saul who killed Christians before he discipled Christians.

I have a hard time finding anyone in the Bible who doesn't have a blemish on their record. Daniel comes pretty close. Not much about him. But even Joseph, who is often elevated as a superstar, boy, he didn't get off on the right foot bragging to his brothers about how he was a good brother and they were the bad brothers. I think we have reason to say, God, thank you.

that you're so honest about your people. Thank you that all these stories in the Bible are Jerry Springer type stories are there to show us that your will is going to be accomplished and that you have a place for those of us who can relate, who stumbled and fumbled ourselves more times than we care to admit.

The big promise. This book was originally entitled The Tilted Halo Society. I like that title. I do, too. And then Faith with a Limp. The Faith with a Limp. I thought that was a good title. I like that, too. But then once in a conference call, somebody on the conference call with the publishing house said, you know, Max, I read this story. What it told me is God will never give up on me.

And you could hear a pin drop on the call because the other titles might have been a little more clever, but what promise is greater? And so that became the title of the book. God never gives up on you. And if nothing else, for somebody just to hear the title, writing the book was worth it, because I think we need to know that. Well, I'm confident, Shannon, that we need to know that.

We do, absolutely. Those of us who are people of faith, we can forget too, or we can be desensitized to these things and think,

You know, I've read many times and I've studied and I understand that God sort of sees me through the sacrifice of Christ, which cleanses me from all my unrighteousness. And there are times when I'm praying and I'm thinking, does he really see me that way? Does he really see me as forgiven and whole and as his child and heir to all of his earthly and heavenly promises?

Or is he still looking at me like, "Bream, get it together. You've prayed about this thing a million times. I'm disappointed in you down there, kid." And I think all of us need reminders that God isn't giving up on us, that He is always in our corner, so to speak. Yeah. Yeah. I think we live with the sense that God must be ticked off at me. I sense this one. I sense this, number one, in my own heart.

When I say, Lord, could you forgive me yet again for that struggle? Could you forgive me yet again for what I've had to confess so many, many times before? I sense that in my own prayer life that I just can't believe that he would forgive me yet again. And then then as well, sometimes when I'm preaching, Shannon.

I just sense that people are saying that's a promise for everybody but me. I just, I don't know why I perceive that. Not too long ago, it was probably several months ago now, after the service, a dear young lady came to me and she's had a very, very tough upbringing.

And we had had a one on one visit about grace, about God's forgiveness. And that day I preached on the topic of grace and she came and she said, Pastor, I finally realized I'm not an exception to God's acceptance.

And I said, oh, that's a breakthrough moment, because we tend to think that we are the exception to God's acceptance. And if we can believe that God has his hand on us and what matters most is his grip on us, not necessarily our grip on him, then that creates a sense of security in our lives.

We'll be able to give grace to others because we've received grace ourselves. We'll be able to give second chances to others because we've been given the greatest second chances ourselves. We'll be able to believe in others because we'll

we believe that God believes in us. So I often say, you know, for the sake of people in your world, let God love you because you'll, you'll be easier to live with once you have that security. Once you have that stabilization, uh, that, that God does love you. He is like, there's a safety net that'll catch you when we're walking this tightrope called life.

And once you know there's a safety net, you will fall, but you won't fall so far you can't be caught. Just believe that and it will restore stability to your life. That's so true. So much wisdom packed in there. Go back and re-listen to the last minute or two, people. You'll appreciate that. I think that there's so much goodness in there. Max, I want to ask you this. Do you feel like, because listen, when I was very, very young, we went to a church that was very

It felt to me in retrospect very legalistic. There was a ton of judgment. Like you were always pointing out other people and what they were doing wrong, that kind of thing. And over the years, I had to sort of unlearn some of that in this

Belief in grace. I mean, there's got to be balance there. We have to have truth. We have to have standards. God calls us to that. But I didn't really get the grace part of it until later in my life. And I feel like this book is a good combination of those things. Yes, our actions are not without consequences, but they're also coming from a very merciful God. Again, the name of the book, God Never Gives Up on You. Have we done a better job, do you think, the modern church in finding that balance? Mm-hmm.

I don't know, Shannon. It's the human nature in us resists proclaiming a risky grace. It makes more sense to us to teach a gospel that has

Equal part, your part, my part. I get what you're talking about when you talk about growing up in a church that taught a watered-down version of grace. I can remember a drawing that was on the bulletin board of our Sunday school in which a person is sitting in a rowboat and has two paddles and is rowing, and the destination is heaven.

And on one or it says my part and on the other or it says God's part. And that was my image as a young person. OK, God does 50 percent and we do 50 percent. Well, that's not I'm in trouble if that's the case. Exactly. Exactly. Number one, God's never told us what our 50 percent is, you know, and if it falls to our strength, then we're sunk literally.

And so I think many of us can relate to that. That's a default reaction. That's just a human nature reaction. We think, okay, if you want to eat, you've got to earn the food. If you want a promotion, you've got to earn the promotion. So everything else in life is earned. Surely our relationship with God must be earned. And it's not.

The great declaration of the Bible is we're saved by grace through faith, not by works so that nobody can boast. We're saved by what Christ has done for us.

People resist it because it's risky. It can be abused. It can be misunderstood. It can be taken advantage of. And that's true. But that's not my call. God is willing to take that risk. And yes, people will abuse it. But in the end, the reason that I'll be in heaven and you'll be in heaven is not because we were good, but because Jesus Christ was and he gave his goodness to us.

Yeah, I'm a sinner saved by grace and so, so thankful for the mercy. And so if you're a person of faith or not, and you're really struggling with this question, just know that this book, the title is true. God never gives up on you. What Jacob's story teaches us about grace, mercy, and God's relentless love.

Millions of people around the world have been blessed by Max Lucado's sermons, his books. And I love, you know, we've talked about what you started doing during COVID online to kind of like mini sermons and encouragement. So, Max, I assume people can find this book anywhere. Books are for sale.

Certainly, certainly. And maxlocato.com will provide a link if you can't find it anywhere else. And there's lots of other goodness there. Pastor, I always am encouraged and blessed by conversation with you. So thank you for joining us on Live in the Bream.

It goes so quickly. Thank you for making time for me. I hope everything goes well for you today. Listen ad-free with a Fox News Podcast Plus subscription on Apple Podcasts. And Amazon Prime members can listen to this show ad-free on the Amazon Music app.

from the Fox News Podcast Network. I'm Janice Dean, Fox News Senior Meteorologist. Be sure to subscribe to the Janice Dean Podcast at foxnewspodcast.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And don't forget to spread the sunshine.