Illuminating The Bible
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It's Live in the Bream with the host of Fox News Sunday, Shannon Bream. This week on Live in the Bream, I am so excited to introduce somebody that I met on a shoot. And sometime this will happen where...

You feel like you're just scratching the surface with somebody. And so I'm so glad that we'll get to have a deeper conversation about all kinds of fascinating things that he is doing. Dr. Robert Duke has a PhD and an MA in Near Eastern Languages and Cultures from UCLA. He's got an MA in Hebrew Bible from Jerusalem University College and a theology degree from Multnomah University.

He has been the recipient of all kinds of awards and scholarships. He is an author. He's also the chief curatorial officer at the Museum of the Bible in D.C. in Washington, which is where we met. And he's also wrapping up 18 years of academic prowess at Azusa Pacific. And so welcome. We will call you Bobby. But doctor, thank you for being with us on Live in the Brain. Oh, thank you so much, Shannon. It is my honor.

I'm honored to join you on this podcast and tell you a little bit about my academic and scholarly journey. I mean, it's fascinating. I can't, for all of the hours I spent probably, I thought, you know, poring over things and getting through law school, I think it was just a drop in the bucket compared to what you've been up to. But it's led to such a fascinating career. And first of all, let me just ask how you started down this path and knew this was sort of where you were going.

Well, in a lot of ways, I got to the path I'm on with a real deep sense of calling when I was in junior high to go into the ministry. I was focused on that all through junior high and high school. I went to Multnomah University in Portland, Oregon to prepare for ministry, and it was through personal tragedy. My college roommate, childhood best friend, he died of a heart attack in my arms in our college dorm room, and it put me on a kind of a moment of just really rethinking and

deciding where should I go. And it was at that moment that I went to a conference where John Wesley was mentioned. John Wesley, the famed preacher from the 18th century. And he had this list of things that all people preparing for ministry should be able to do. And one of those was to know Hebrew. I had not taken any Hebrew.

So I was, again, young, single, could travel the world, had just gone through some personal tragedy. And I said, you know, what better place to go than Jerusalem to study Hebrew? So I headed over there right after I graduated from college. And then the doors just kept opening with my love for Hebrew, my love for the land, all things archaeology, biblical studies. And it really was kind of God moving me in different directions, individually.

and saying ministry can look very, very different in a lot of different ways. And the doors just kept opening, going down the scholarly route. And I just took that as confirmation that what began as my love for scripture in junior high and wanting to do ministry was then narrowed to do what I'm doing today, which I still consider to be kind of a larger calling in ministry, but just a little different platform.

Well, and the way that we met is through a story I was doing at Museum of the Bible. And you were just walking us through some amazing things that you're not going to see anywhere else in the world. And there are so many treasures there. And to have you and your knowledge and your background to explain them to us was a real gift. And so I want to talk about a little bit of what you showed us there, but also, you know, continuing more through your journey to be able to live in Jerusalem. And I've only visited, but there's

that's got to have such an impact on the way you have a much deeper understanding of the culture, of the languages, of the importance of all of these things that keep being discovered and how much they mean to all different faiths.

No, absolutely. And how I look at it is I often don't look to, say, archaeology and some of these discoveries to prove the Bible. I look at them to illuminate the Bible and to really bring the Bible into living colors. So I've met so many people that have been faithful Bible readers all their lives. They go to Israel that first time and they come back and say, wow, it's like now watching television in black and white all my life. And now, wow.

watching it in color because everything just comes to life. You start getting a sense of when, say in the Gospels, it has Jesus giving the parable of a man walking from Jerusalem to Jericho. Well, you can actually picture what that would look like and what that journey would have been. So it really helps illuminate the Bible. And I would say my time in the land, my time on archaeological digs, multiple archaeological digs, has only made me just like love scripture and just want to dig deeper, to use an archaeological metaphor.

I used to, our pastor, one of our previous pastors who's retired, Lon Solomon, who you may know from McLean Bible in the D.C. area, he used to always say, the more they dig up, the more it proves and corresponds with what the Bible has to say. So, I mean, I'm fascinated because when you and I were talking, you talked about how, you know, certain parts of Israel, when you decide to

do a project that involves some kind of construction or reconstruction or an update. I mean, there are so many different things that if you decide to tackle those, there's got to be a team that comes in to check and work through potential archaeological discoveries. And that's why I guess we keep getting word. I feel like every time I turn around that something new has been uncovered because there

As you try to move towards progress in the area with development and different things, you're going to find all these other things because there's a team to make sure you don't miss anything.

No, absolutely. Just the whole area there has been kind of occupied, destroyed, occupied, destroyed, rebuilt for centuries and centuries and centuries. I mean, going back thousands of years. And that has just created this almost like a layer cake of occupation and different people groups that have lived there from thousands of years ago. And all of that

can be buried underneath buildings or underneath parking garages or you name it. So whenever they do construction projects, they will make sure that they don't recover up something that could be under the ground. So an example, 1967, you have what's often called the Six Days War. When it concluded,

whole parts of the old city of Jerusalem had been completely destroyed in the battle there. And all of a sudden it provided an opportunity to go in and look what's under the ground. And lo and behold, they found all of this amazing archaeology from the monarchy period of Israel, from the time of Hezekiah. So all of these biblical figures that for many people, their names in books of 1st and 2nd Kings or 1st and 2nd Chronicles, all of a sudden we're looking at the archaeology from that time period that

It corresponds very well. And like I said, illuminates when you read scripture and say when Hezekiah fortified the city because the Assyrians were coming. Well, here's what it looks like because we were able to uncover it after 1967.

And one of the things that you and I first met and talked about at the museum was something they have on display there, the Megiddo mosaic. And that's one of those things too that I would really urge people to go see it. It is so much grander than I thought it was going to be before I went in there to see just the amount of space that was actually recovered of that mosaic and has been lovingly and carefully brought to this place at the Museum of the Bible so you can see it for yourself. But that's another one of those stories that it was found in what a lot of people

would think was a very unlikely place and what is it? So yeah, the Megiddo Mosaic is the earliest church floor and church building discovered archaeologically. We know of churches like the monumental churches like the Church of the Nativity or the Church of the Annunciation in Nazareth or the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem. This church

predates them all by about a hundred years and it was a small modest room. But as you were saying, it was found in a current active prison in Israel and even the excavation was assisted by inmates of that prison. But they were going to be doing some construction projects. They did some surface soundings and found out there was archaeology underneath and they found this mosaic floor and it truly is stunning what's on that floor including the earliest mention of the divinity of Jesus.

Right. So talk us through that, because you said this is what, maybe second century? It's third century, the 200s. So really, when it comes to early church history, there's often this assumption that until the time of, say, Constantine, the early church was just

kind of fluttering around and didn't have stable theology, but all of a sudden what's found on this mosaic floor shows that very good Orthodox theology is already being inscribed on the floor in these mosaic inscriptions. So this floor, and again, I would also encourage your listeners to come and see it because it really is one that you can hear about it, but when you see it, it just comes to life. But on this mosaic floor, you have one of the areas, and I'll just kind of call them a carpet,

where there right in the middle is this fish medallion. So you have this focus on the fish, which was an early Christian symbol. Before the cross became the kind of central symbol for Christianity, the fish was the symbol, and it's right there on this mosaic floor. And it does conjure up the thoughts of the early disciples being fishers of men, the feeding of the 5,000 with the fish and loaves, but also the fact that the acronym, that if you spelled out

Each of the letters of the word fish, ichthus in Greek, actually is Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior. So you have the fish medallion in one side of the room, and on the other side of the room, you have a very prominent table in the middle of the room that would have been used for the Eucharist, the communion. And around this whole area are three inscriptions that mention a centurion. It mentions the workman Brutius who made the mosaic inscription.

It mentions four women that are to be remembered for something. It doesn't say, it just says, may they be remembered and list their names. And then it mentions one specific woman, a keptess who gave the money for the table to

to honor the God Jesus Christ. And that's that early mention of the divinity of Jesus, first time archaeologically, that is found outside. So as I was saying, it gives the sense that this early church is not just, say, the local work people, but it's also a centurion. It's a group of men and women worshiping together, and they're brought together around this faith of the God Jesus Christ. We'll have more Live in the Bream in a moment.

Start preparing for your future at Liberty University and join thousands of LU alumni like Shannon Bream. From a flexible K-12 online academy to doctoral level programs, Liberty University has a range of educational opportunities to match your needs. If you're looking for an accredited K-12 school, Liberty University Online Academy provides a flexible,

biblically-based curriculum. For a college degree at the undergraduate or graduate level, choose from Liberty University's 700-plus programs online and on campus with scholarships and financial assistance available. Whether you choose to study residentially on Liberty's beautiful Lynchburg, Virginia campus or

enjoy the convenience of one of our online programs, today's the day to start pursuing your world-class Christian education. Right now, as a listener of the Live in the Bream podcast, you'll get your application fee waived when you apply at liberty.edu forward slash Shannon. That's liberty.edu forward slash Shannon. Check out Liberty University today. And when we were talking about this, you mentioned where Paul writes about breaking down all these different barriers, you know,

you know, Greek and Jew and slave and free and all of these different things. And it sounds like the way you're describing what we've learned from this mosaic, that was the case in this early church, maybe, you know, a couple hundred years post-Christ, was that it was a collection of all kinds of different peoples and classes and people worshiping together. Yeah.

No, and it, like you said, you almost get a sense that they're reading Paul's letters and they're like, how are we going to live this out right here in this area of what's called the Jezreel Valley in Israel? What I find even kind of stunning is one of the inscriptions, the one that honors Gionis the Centurion, is

it looks like it was made and then secondarily it has this kind of postscript in the bottom right of the inscription that says oh and Brutius was the man who made this mosaic so you get this sense that even again kind of romantically I think Gionis came and saw this and said hey it's great that you're honoring me I'm a man of power wealth money

But I didn't do the work. It was this workman who did the work. Put his name there, too, because you have this picture, as you're saying, of this community coming around the table for Eucharist. And it didn't matter if you were the most powerful or a workman, if you were a woman or a man, they all came around the table in the honor of the God Jesus Christ.

I can imagine because you know that there are so many treasures there in that region that every time you get word of another possible discovery like this, it's got to be so exciting because you don't know what you have yet to discover, what may be found.

Well, and I, as you were saying, it seems like every time you turn around, you hear something. So there comes a point where you stop being amazed and you start getting excited about what might be around the corner. So let's take the site of Qumran where the Dead Sea Scrolls are found.

Cave 11, there's been 11 caves discovered so far that produced leather with writing on them. There's a lot more caves in that area, and they've done complete soundings of all of them. But is Cave 12 just around the corner with new technology? And in the year 2001, I was...

invited to be part of an archeological dig where we dug at the site of Qumran, 'cause they found this cavity underground. Now we moved rocks and some dirt for several weeks in 100 plus temperatures and we didn't discover anything, but even the fact that could this be a cave 12? Could we uncover something that would have even more manuscript evidence that gives us our earliest biblical passages would be fantastic. And you never know what could be around the corner.

And we know when things around the corner in 2025, there is another segment of Dead Sea Scrolls that will come to visit the Museum of the Bible in D.C.,

That is correct. So November of 25 through September of 26, we will have a very vast exhibit that isn't just Dead Sea Scrolls material. It will also tell the whole story of what we often call Second Temple Judaism and what was life like there. So it even includes the actual Magdala Stone that was found at the site of Magdala, the home of Mary Magdalene. This stone found in the synagogue, again, by accident.

They were building a guest house. This Catholic group was building a guest house near their facility there in Magdala. They did a archeological sounding and they hit the floor of a first century synagogue, uh,

A synagogue that was in operation when Jesus and his disciples were going around the north coast of the Sea of Galilee. So you have this sense that even though we don't have that passage of scripture that says, and on certain Sabbath, Jesus went into the synagogue of Magdala, Jesus would have gone to that synagogue. It was just in proximity to everything else. And they found this stone table.

that would have been used for rolling out Torah scrolls or other items there, it will also be on display at the museum with the Dead Sea Scrolls. So it's not just scrolls, it's the whole story that just happens to be the 2,000 years ago events. And we also got to talk about, and I had the privilege of seeing an Afghan Jewish prayer book that you all have on display there as well. And what an amazing discovery and what a privilege to have it there and to be able to learn the story of that as well.

Yeah, I would say at my time so far at the museum and the role I have, one of the most really kind of emotional moments for me was our opening ceremony for that exhibit we call Sacred Words. It is the central piece of that is this Jewish prayer book, and it is the earliest version

book in Hebrew literature. It's scrolls. We have lots of scrolls and others that go earlier, even Dead Sea Scrolls like the Great Isaiah Scroll. But the book format was something that was adopted much later in Judaism. And this is the earliest one that has prayers for Passover. It has prayers for Sukkot, the Feast of Tabernacles. It even has on one page what looks like someone scribbling the alphabet.

aleph bet gimel doll at the hebrew alphabet so even i have this notion that uh whoever owned that prayer book maybe one of their children was learning how to write the alphabet and started writing it and like no you got to stop because it only got halfway through the alphabet before it stopped but

But this prayer book, though, at the opening ceremony, we had the former Afghan ambassador to the United States who lives here now because she can't go back to Afghanistan because of the Taliban takeover. So she mentioned in her talk how here we are, Museum of the Bible, with the oldest Jewish prayer book that the Afghan Jewish community has as their treasure.

Being a Muslim woman who is here giving a opening for this in a museum that is funded mainly by Christians and this whole picture of these people coming around because of this common belief that there is a God. There is a God who unites people all around the world. And it was this moment of saying that this...

artifact. This prayer book that was found in a cave in Afghanistan is something that can help people see beyond the tragedies that we see all around us every day.

There are so many parts of the museum that are about uniting different faiths. And talking about differences, yes, but talking about what unites you as well, and this belief in God and His guiding hand. And there are just so many fascinating things to see there at the museum that are beyond whether you hold a specific faith or not, but just, I mean, even if you were just going for the history, the artifacts,

There's just so many amazing things that I find when you see them, it sparks all kinds of other questions and conversations about, oh my goodness, okay, we have this piece of the puzzle. Over here's another piece and what puzzle pieces are yet to be discovered.

Yep. Well, and I would say even kind of the mission of Museum of the Bible is to kind of invite all people. I mean, all people from whatever background, faith background or non-faith background to come and engage in that transformative power of scripture. It's undeniable that the Bible has been the most transformative book ever written. And it is one that, as you were saying, is on display there in the museum, as you can see all these people groups from all over the world. And one of our

galleries that also elicits a lot of emotional response from our guests is we call it our Illuminations Gallery. It shows all the different languages that the Bible's been translated into and includes all the languages that are still needing to have translation and or translations that actually do exist, but we can't publicly announce that they've been translated because of safety issues.

And several weeks ago, we had a installation where every time a new translation is finished, we put it in that gallery. And that illuminations gallery just shows you how this book translated in languages all over the world is continuing to change lives.

And we had a special a few weeks ago on artificial intelligence. And so we talked through the good things it's doing. We talked about some of the fears that people have. But I thought of that illuminations area where you talk about all these different translations and thinking, I wonder if AI will be a helpful tool in some of these remote languages and villages and people groups, whether the AI technology that we do fear can do some scary things would also be really helpful.

helpful for getting some speed with some of these translations? No, AI is definitely being used. And we had a conference last summer that was focused on AI and Bible translation specifically, and on how that technology can help more rapidly produce Bible translations. And I think AI is one of those good examples of the fact that here is a technological advance that can be used for good,

Bible translations or it could be used for evil. We know that it's there. And I think that's why even when I think of the message of scripture is one that that kind of ethical component that doing good. Yes, you can take a technology, but are you going to use it for good or are you going to use it for evil? And I think Bible translation is one of those places that I'm glad for AI technology and at least the ways it can be used positively.

Okay, so we are talking with Dr. Bobbi Duke, who is the Chief Curatorial Officer at the Museum of the Bible. Tell us, as we wrap up, where we can find more about your work, about the museum, and what's to come.

Yeah, so just easily on any search engine you have Museum of the Bible, it'll take you to our homepage. There are not only links there to come and visit, to come and get tickets, but there's also various places that you can learn more about our collection. We have been very, we are very eager to whenever we digitize and we have a

full digitization lab there at the museum. We want to make things available. So come and look at some of our treasures on our collections page on our website. And as you were saying, come before July and you'll see our Megiddo mosaic. Come next November and following and see the Dead Sea Scrolls or come any time of year and see all of our permanent galleries that are truly stunning and will change the way you read scripture.

If you're anywhere in the D.C. area planning a trip or, you know, a group, a school, any of those things, this is definitely worth putting on your list to make a stop when you're in D.C. Dr. Bobby Duke, thank you for giving us a little bit more of a deep dive into what's going on there. And again, there's so much more. This is just the beginning of the conversation, but we appreciate your time. God bless you. Thank you so much, Shannon.

Listen ad-free with the Fox News Podcast plus subscription on Apple Podcasts. And Amazon Prime members can listen to this show ad-free on the Amazon Music app. I'm Dana Perino. This week on Perino on Politics, I'm joined by former GOP strategist and host of The Rich Zioli Show, Rich Zioli. Available now on foxnewspodcast.com or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Must listen to podcasts from Fox News Audio.