Ken Harrison: Rise of the Servant Kings
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This week on Live in the Dream, we are going to talk with Ken Harrison. He is the chairman of Promise Keepers, if you are familiar with that organization. They are relaunching and doing all kinds of interesting new things. He's also CEO of Waterstone Foundation, which is a whole other super interesting thing he's got going on. So a lot to discuss with him today, but we're going to start by talking about toxic masculinity. Ken, welcome. Thank you for having me on.

You know what? I think we all sort of have an idea of what that means. How do you describe that issue? Toxic masculinity is just an attempt to redefine something that's positive into a negative term. I mean, masculinity is not...

is the positive aspects of being a man, just like femininity is that positive aspects of being a woman. And God created man and female in His image, a fully masculine man, a fully feminine woman together show what the image of God is. And so it's really just a godless way of trying to make something beautiful, masculinity, into something ugly. When we refer to toxic masculinity, we're really just talking about immature boys who are in men's bodies.

Okay. Something that the New York Times, it was interesting, they have a piece that's actually entitled, What is Toxic Masculinity? So this is how they describe it. They say researchers use these three different definitions, suppressing emotions or masking distress, maintaining an appearance of hardness, and violence as an indicator of power. They say, think about what you would call, quote, unquote, tough guy behavior, right?

So where do you think this, you know, defining of this and the way that our society views it has gotten off track? Well, I mean, because we've overemphasized certain traits. And so when you and I were kids growing up, James Bond was the sort of what we looked at. He was this promiscuous, hard-drinking guy who was crazy.

Complete narcissist. And he was held up as masculine. And when that didn't work, then they changed the definition to something else. And what we have to do is stick to God's definition of what a man is. And a man, according to the Lord, is a leader in his family who does so out of servanthood and humility.

Yeah, a lot of people think, especially as an evangelical Christian myself, I get questions about the role of women and men and what's expected, you know, the idea of submission. And I think a lot of people who haven't lived their lives this way or haven't studied it much think of it as a very negative thing that men make all the decisions and women...

are left in second class roles and that they don't have a voice in the home. How is that a misinterpretation of what the real intention is supposed to be?

And that is such a misinterpretation. And we have to remember, too, we have an enemy who's always pulling us into unhealthy and sinful ways, and he does it by lying. I mean, the Bible says in Ephesians 5.25 that husbands are to love their wives like Christ loved the church. And the Bible shows the church as God's, as Jesus' bride. So how did Jesus love his bride? He was tortured to death for her.

That's supposed to be our attitude towards our wives, that we cherish them so much that we are going to do exactly what the Bible says Jesus is going to do with his bride, which is to present her blameless and spotless to his Father in Heaven. And that's how we need to approach our marriages. It is not at all a dominating thing. It is a servanthood thing, cherishing and providing for our wives.

And why do you think people don't get that message? I mean, that some people will say, well, look at, you know, they'll point to religious leaders over time who have, you know, taken women's voice out of the church or blocked it from being an important part of the church discussion. And we'll say that women can't teach or can't be religious leaders. And it does give people a very negative impression. I mean, where did that come from?

Well, I mean, chauvinism is a real thing, and people can use religion to justify all kinds of things. And lots of things were done in the name of Christianity that are not what Christ said. And Jesus promised us that it would be that way. I mean, he tells us in the parable of the wheat and the tares that

that essentially the church is going to be full of hypocrites, many of whom aren't truly Christians, but who play the act because they like whatever they get out of the church. So when you see somebody who's lording it over women, who's chauvinistic, there's nothing in that that's Christian. They may slap a Christian label on it, but it's just a lie.

do you think some of this is generational too because um i think that obviously over the last you know few years we've had things like me too and things that have shown a real spotlight on um dangerous people uh and patterns and things that have happened in the past and it seems like there's almost a pendulum swing the other way when a newer younger generation looks at this stuff and says hey listen men have a lot to atone for they've been bad actors in a lot of situations

So now we need women to be the leaders and we need women to be in the forefront and men sort of need to apologize for being men. I mean, where do we find the balance? Yeah, we're all sinful creatures. And, you know, it's funny. So I started off my career as a police.

in South Central Los Angeles on the LAPD during the Rodney King days and all that stuff. And most of the cops were really, really great cops. A few of them did bad things, and of course everyone painted a broad brush across the entire LAPD based on what a few guys did on a video. And it's the same thing here. I mean, the whole foundation of Christianity is to forgive,

to be patient with people and be empathetic because we're all sinners. We've all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. And so through His grace, as we die to ourselves daily, He becomes more and more in us and changes our desires. And so we see that in this mentality of, well, men did bad things. Yes, they did, and so have women. And we all need to learn to forgive each other and to stay in our gospel roles that God's given us in humility and love.

Satan wants to get us all off that and pointing the finger at each other. You see the same thing in race. Any way that he could divide people, he will. Jesus Christ is all about unity and loving each other and forgiving each other and then doing what God's Word says. But we're not going to get anywhere by men trying to act like women and women trying to act like men. We're just going to get what we have right now, which is deep confusion.

Well, you talk about the idea of servanthood and of men being in service and lifting up their wives, that kind of thing. I mean, how does that work in a practical day-to-day relationship when men decide to take on that role?

Well, you know, it's interesting. I've been a CEO of a lot of organizations and I've run some big companies and we all have our skill set. And what a really good leader does, number one, is he empathizes. So he puts himself in the shoes of the other person and walks around in them for a while, as Harry Truman used to say. And we need to stop and think, if I were my wife, how would I have perceived what I just said?

or what I just did. Same thing with our kids. The other thing is we are constantly focused on what does winning look like in whatever we're doing in life. And in the family, winning is unity. And so what do we do? The third thing is, as a leader, you need to know and elevate other people's skill sets. So if your wife is, you know, I've heard chauvinistic men say, well, you know, I'm the man, so I take care of the finances. Well, if your wife's a CPA, that's a pretty dumb thing to do.

Right. So we want to elevate our wives and their skill set as a leader and create space for them to be who they are and to be free to flourish in wherever God's put them. So for people who don't have a religious base and they this is, you know, just not where they're coming from. It's not the center of their life or part of their life at all. I mean, how can these ideas about marriage, about relationships apply to the world in general?

Well, I mean, it's funny. It all works the same, doesn't it? I mean, even if you don't believe in Jesus Christ, you can still see that if a man was acting as someone who cherished his wife with everything in him, who laid down his rights to himself for her happiness, and who also acted as a leader and a provider, I think 99.9% of relationships out there would be a lot better, even if you didn't believe in Jesus.

But again, as a leader of promise keepers and as a Christian, I'll tell people the only way to true joy is through Jesus Christ because we're all held down by our sins. And when we look outward, I mean, what is the one thing that's killing society right now is the struggle with pornography.

And what we found is that men are not going to kick pornography by trying hard not to look at pornography. They're going to kick that by dying to themselves and saying, there's no way I'm going to be this kind of man because if I'm in this kind of sin, I cannot cherish my wife properly. I can't teach my daughter self-respect. I can't teach my son self-esteem.

I feel dirty and filled with sin. And I certainly am not looking at women as my sisters in Christ. I'm looking at them as objects. And so what do we do? We fall at the cross and say, Lord Jesus, I'm sorry for this. You said that you died for my sins, that you would take them from me. And nothing can keep me from you if I just give up my sin and all of my rights to myself and just accept you into my heart. That's what's going to change people.

Well, what do you say to those who they find it odd that there would even be a conversation about pornography? They just say it's, you know, part of society. It's part of life. If you don't want to have it in your life, don't, you know, choose to to bring it in or to look at it. But that it's a, quote, normal, healthy thing for a lot of folks out there.

Yeah, I would say if you look at the studies, it's not. I can tell you from practical experience. I mean, when I was a cop in L.A., what did we have? We had an epidemic of fatherless boys. And when you had a whole massive amount of fatherless boys, you had a lack of discipline, a lack of being properly instructed about how to be a man, because it takes a man to make a man. And then you have guys who are very sexually promiscuous. And I saw that with sexual promiscuity comes either violence or cowardice.

And so I would say that my own personal observation, and then if you look at the studies that Josh McDowell has done and whatnot, pornography is destroying how we see other people and how we treat other people. So you may think this is a victimless crime, it's all about me, but it isn't because it comes out, as I said earlier, if you're looking at that kind of stuff all day long, you are not going to treat women as your sisters. You're going to see them as objects. It's just what the studies have shown.

Why do you think people aren't willing to at least have that conversation that there may be a downside to the industry? That's a great question. I think, you know, people don't want to change. I mean, if you're addicted to something like that, and it is addictive, it is like a drug. You don't want to have to face up to your issues.

You know, but at Promise Keepers, you know, I have an important distinction here because I'm a Christian leader, and so I look at everything in the scope of Scripture, not necessarily as a broader societal whole. So I know the answers I'm giving to you are sort of on one plane. So I can only look at things through what Scripture says. And Scripture says that we're sinners.

And some people, they'll fall at the cross and give up their sin and plead for repentance. And some people, they don't want to give up their sin. They like their sin. They like who they are. And those people are going to deny facts. As I always say about those people, they'd rather be right than have the truth.

You'll never win a debate with them. But all you can do is talk to them. Maybe somebody else outside will hear. And we're patient with them and we pray for them because we hope that they'll be changed from that mentality because to be filled with lust all the time like that is not healthy. I want to ask you more about your background as a police officer because that's one of the areas where we see, and my dad was a police officer too, but we see a lot of criticism. I'm sorry?

I said, oh, really? Yeah, yeah. He's passed away now, but when I was young, very young, he was an undercover narcotics officer in South Florida. So...

He had a lot of stories he couldn't tell me. He told me a few. But, you know, thinking back on that, there's so much discussion about that police officers are some of those who are overly aggressive with their masculinity and that they're making bad decisions and that they are acting in ways that are detrimental to the communities that they are supposed to protect. How do you respond?

Some cops do. There's a thing that happens in your soul when you're a police officer, especially in a real high crime area, because you see such a lack of hope. I mean, I can't tell you the feeling you have when you see a child in a vicious child abuse situation and

and there's no place to bring them. Maybe there's only one parent. So then you have to drive them out and put them in foster care, and there's six other kids there, and you just leave that child. There's nothing else you can do, and the child's hurting, and there's no one there to help. And you do that day after day after day, and you get spit on, and you chase bad guys down, and you're on the stand in court. I mean, we average in South Central LA about two felony arrests per day.

Most of those you end up testifying on court. And when you get to court, you have a public defender who's up there trying to make you look like the most evil person in the world. You know, if you go through that for enough years, you just have a jaded, awful situation. Some guys handle it well.

And some guys don't. And that's just the truth of the matter. We need to get our police officers help in a real way. And it's getting better, I think, because there's so many, especially Christian groups out there who are helping, who are doing things. And police officers nowadays are starting to see that there is some help for these kids that we didn't have 30 years ago when I was on the job.

Yeah, I know that we've covered earlier this year, there have been a number of suicides in the NYPD. I think at our last count, eight or nine. And the department, the folks there internally sound like they're devastated that they're facing so many different things at home, on the streets.

you know, public attacks, that they're not good people, that they're bad people. You know, you talk about people getting help, and I always see the NYPD reaching out and saying in their releases when these things happen, hey, we want our officers to know that there's help there for them. Do you think that men often feel like it would be a sign of weakness, it would hurt their career? It's difficult for them to reach out in those scenarios? Yeah.

Sure. It's hard, especially if you don't trust the leadership. And, you know, from what I've been reading, the NYPD doesn't really trust the leadership of the city of New York right now. We never had that problem in Los Angeles. We had Mayor Bradley, we had Chief Gates, and we we

we really felt like the brass had our back. I don't know that these guys do. And, and suicide in general is vastly higher for middle-aged men than it is for middle-aged women. There's something about hope, um, for the future that, that keeps people inspired. And when you lose hope, it,

It's really hard and we're seeing men lose hope more and more. They're just carrying around burdens they don't need to carry because they... One of the things we want to fix at Promise Keepers is what we call the friendless American male syndrome. Too few men have real friends.

Real friends. If your wife left you, if your kid was really sick or you lost your job or you went bankrupt, do you have three or four guys that really do life with you that you could count on? Very few men do. It's one of the things that we don't just want to fill Dallas Stadium next year with 80,000 men and have a mountaintop moment. Afterwards, we want to have follow-up where we link men together into teams based around service.

And so we got guys, we're kind of fire teams after the basic fighting force of the Marine Corps. Groups of four men who really do life together, and they do it around service because men don't form a relationship by talking. Women tend to do that more. They make relationships around doing. That's why guys get together to go to the ballgame or to go golfing. There needs to be some sort of act. Well, we want to get guys together not just for that but also to serve,

And one of the things we want to get them to do is start serving fatherless boys. Again, it's an epidemic. So if we could take some friendless American males, get them doing life together in a group, and then say, hey, how about a few four guys? Now you reach across, look at church, and you find a woman who's got a boy and she needs help and say, hey, could we, the four of us, mentor your son? Could we go to his ball games? Could we help him to get into college? Could we teach him about careers? Could we be the dad that he doesn't have?

And imagine if we had a million fire teams of guys mentoring a million boys, and imagine if we reached across racial lines.

Imagine the unity we'd have in this country and how much different would those boys feel about themselves and this country if they had four men who poured in their lives that way. That's really where we're trying to go. Yeah, it's such a hopeful picture when you talk about it that way and the real difference that men can make for each other. And then you said in service to others and reaching across all kinds of lines, economic, racial, whatever it happens to be.

We certainly need more of that, not less, in this current environment in the world today. So, Ken Harrison, we wish you all the best with those efforts. He's the chairman of Promise Keepers. They have a lot coming up in the next year. So check them out, and we'll continue this conversation, Ken. Hopefully others will as well on the issues of masculinity and men, how they can build others up and how we can help to build them up as well. Ken, thank you. Hey, thanks for carrying it, Shannon, and having me on. I really appreciate it.

I'm Guy Benson. Join me weekdays at 3 p.m. Eastern as we break down the biggest stories of the day with some of the biggest newsmakers and guests. Listen live on the Fox News app or get the free podcast at Guy Benson show dot com.