Deep Dive
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It's time to take the quiz. Five questions, five minutes a day, five days a week. Take the quiz every weekday at thequiz.fox and then listen to the quiz podcast to find out how you did. Play, share, and of course, listen to the quiz at thequiz.fox. It's Livin' the Breen with host of Fox News at Night, Shannon Breen.
This week on Live in the Bream, if you are in a rut or discouraged in your career, in your professional life, you need some advice or some guidance, or you're just not sure what to do next, you are going to love our guest today. He is host of the nationally syndicated The Ken Coleman Show. It's on Sirius XM 121 in the afternoons.
He has got a new best-selling book out, which we're going to talk about today, called The Proximity Principle. Ken, welcome to Live in the Bream. Shannon, thanks for having me. Excited about our time.
Listen, you and I have talked before and we have so many things in common and I love reading more about your story. We both were doing other things, good careers, but felt like we were called to something else. And you talk about in the book, the steps that you take to kind of really jump off a cliff almost to reinvent your whole life and really pursue what your passion is.
So with that as the backdrop, I wanted to talk about how you start the book talking about so many people do not like what they do for a living. It's where we spend the majority of our time. Where are we sort of as a working nation on that front?
Yeah, so you've got a recent Gallup poll that said that 70% of Americans are disengaged to the point that they hate their job. And we know this, that Monday mornings represent a tremendous amount of agony and anxiety for so many people because they don't enjoy going in. It's like a...
It's like a sentence in a never-ending cycle. And it's like the hamster wheel. They don't see any purpose in it. Why am I doing this? And they're living for the weekend. And then to your point, the majority of our lives, this is a staggering piece of data that
most Americans spend about an average of 90,000 hours at work in their lifetime. So whatever that career arc looks like, think about 90,000 plus hours is the average. And so it is mind-blowing when you think about doing something that long and not feeling any connection to the work. And then internationally, we know that the number is closer to
eighty percent so this is an american problem this is a global human problem and people long to do work that matters so this is a real crisis and it's crusade that i'm fighting
Yeah, and fighting it so well and sharing your own story. And as you talk about, and I share with people too, even once you make that decision, and I think it's kind of good to be thoroughly miserable. You're going to make a really big change in your career because I felt like the more miserable I got, even in something that was a good career, it really made me start to get realistic about just...
jumping out of the nest being kicked out of the nest whatever it is to kinda push you to say alright how can I really actually pursue something that I have a dream about and you talk about how no one else is gonna do it for you there is a lot of hard work and it's frightening in the beginning and there are failures along the way I'm not everybody you know jumps into their first thing as an entrepreneur or broadcaster or whatever they're doing
and it immediately succeeds. But you talk about dealing with the fear and about the fact that you have to be realistic about what the path may be like, but don't let that stop you. That's right. Well, the thing that we as human beings are most afraid of is the unknown.
It cripples us. But when we begin to fight the fear with knowledge, that really is the antidote to fear, which is the actual truth to the lie that fear shares. So there are some common fears that we all face. Fear of rejection. Nobody likes being told, nope, you're not good.
good enough for the job. We're going to take somebody else. You and I, we're in an industry where we were the product. We are the product. And if you're trying to get something, somebody says, no, you're not good enough to be on air. That is wildly painful and very, very personal. So we all fear rejection. We fear financial failure if we want to be a career switcher. You know, we've got a stable job, good health care benefits. If you're a spouse or a parent,
You know, that provider mentality takes over, and we get very, very scared of financial failure. Then we have the fear of peers, I like to say. And this is not just friends, but this is family as well. I can't tell you, Shannon, how many callers I have into my daily show that they know exactly what they want to do, and they know what they need to do about it, but their family doesn't want them to leave and use the analogy of kind of,
jumping out of the nest, getting kicked out of the nest. And so fear, there's all kinds of fear. But one fear that is the most crippling is really that fear of the unknown. If I don't know what the path looks like to get up that mountain,
then I'm not going to make any move forward at all. And so we help people daily. And in this book, The Proximity Principle, by revealing a clear path to the right people and the right places. And when you're around the right people and in the right places, opportunity presents itself. And you, you really modeled that. That's why I had you on my show. I mean, your career really illustrates that beautifully.
Well, and you know, thank you. But you talk about this, the proximity principle, again, is the name of the book with Ken Coleman is who we're talking with today. And you do break it down people and places and other ways that you get the proximity that you need towards what you're working toward. And I have to say there were a lot of people who along the way in the beginning were not interested in helping me, which is fine. Everybody has a life. They're doing their own things.
But there were a handful along the way who were succeeding at what I wanted to do, who were kind enough to say to me, all right, you can shadow me. You can come along. And I would always offer to do something like, can I help you with your bags? Can I buy you lunch? Can I do something? And you talk about how it's important when you approach people about needing help, whether it's mentoring or advice or even just picking their brain, whatever it is.
that you should come to them with an attitude of, I want to learn. I want to benefit you in some way. It's not just going to someone that you see who is successful and saying, hey, I want to know everything you know. I mean, there's a little more nuance to it.
It really is, you know, it's the difference between being audacious and obnoxious. You know, audacious is just kind of taking a chance. They might say no, that they might not reply to you if you reach out via phone or email. So the audacity to put yourself out there is what we're looking for here. We don't want that obnoxious. They can see you coming a mile away, and you're there to impress them.
Nothing is more irritating to somebody of influence when they give of their most valuable asset, and that's their time. And then you come in, and it's very obvious that you're just trying to impress them so that they will do something for you. And what we are teaching is that when you sit down with people who do what you want to do and really living out the proximity principle, what you need to be doing is approaching this with –
humility and hunger. This is overwhelming gratitude for their time. And then saying, I want to be in a position like you, or it would be a dream for me to sit where you sit. And so that's why I wanted your time. And I came today prepared to learn from you. I've got some questions. If you don't mind, I just want to make the most of your time because I know your time is valuable. And I've got some questions. And if you approach it that way, that person
feel so valued that then you have done something for them. And a lot of people, Shannon, you make a very good point. They say, Ken, I don't know how I can do anything for somebody that is that successful or that influential. And you can, in fact, do, I think, one of the most valuable things for any human being, and that's value them. And I don't care how successful you are.
if you treat them that way, they feel valued and they love to share their insight, their wisdom. And most importantly, Shannon, when that
meeting is done, if you approach it that way, most times you will find that they will volunteer to connect you to somebody else or recommend some places or people. And that is the bonus. But you're there just to learn from them, not to get them to help you. And if you take it
If you take that approach, what you're going to find is people are really happy to help, humble, hungry people. Yeah. I mean, that's such an important way in the way that you frame that, the fact that you do want to learn, that you respect their time. It's funny because it's different when I get a call or an email from someone who says, I'm just getting out of college, but I want to anchor my own show on the news, and how do I do that? Versus...
Hey, I want to learn how to be a reporter. I want to learn how to dig stories. And what did you do? And what can I learn? It's funny. I mean, it is a different approach. And I had to ask so many people for help along the way. And one of the folks that I talk about in my book is a photographer who was so kind to let me go with him. I mean, I couldn't do anything for him. But I said to him, hey, can I buy you dinner while we're out tonight on this shoot?
And he said, nope, the only thing I want you to do is when you're in a position to help someone else and someone comes to you, that you will make time to help them. And I said, that's a great tradeoff. I can do that. And so it's always good to think about paying it forward in the way that if you get where you want to go, that you'll then, it makes me feel like Zig Ziglar, that, you know, you help people, they'll help you. And you keep the cycle going of really helping people who are working hard and, as you said, are humble.
So can you give us any practical advice on getting to those people? If there's someone in your field, whatever it is that you admire, that you think you can learn from or that you want to emulate, what's the best way to kind of find those people and make contact and actually be able to get some knowledge from them?
Yeah, so you've got to know who you're looking for. And I'll just do a very brief run-through. Folks can buy the book for the deeper dive, but there's five archetypes in the book. And they are, in no particular order, the producer, the professional, the professor, the peer, the mentor. And so each of these people...
they all exist. And while they're archetypes, you can find them. And so if you look at, for instance, the professor, this is not necessarily a college professor. It can be, but this is somebody who is in the trade, in the field, the craft that you want to get into. And they are known for instructing, teaching, training in that field. And not only are they known for it, they really enjoy it. So they're going to have that heart of a
teacher and really dive into you. And that was for me, really huge. A guy by the name of Jeff Batten, who was running a broadcasting school and I'm 31 years of age and I just need to learn the basics and I don't have the time or the money to go back to school for it. I went to Liberty university, didn't get a broadcasting journalism degree. I hadn't done any formal broadcasting, you know? And so I had to learn the basics. It was an eight week class, uh,
And so, you know, you've got to look for who are the professionals that can teach me the fundamentals of what I need to do. You know, I think of the scenario you just shared with us where people have emailed you and said, hey, I want to anchor my own show one day. How do I do that? What I wish they would have emailed you and said, how do I get into the industry? And then what are the pieces of advice you'd give me to move up once I get in? That's what we want. Who can teach you the fundamentals? Because there is no next, right?
if you don't win in the now. And so you've got to learn the fundamentals. You know, look at the producer. The producer is an archetype in this book who is somebody who is a high achiever. They're very successful in the field you want to be in, and they're all around you. This is not somebody that's untouchable. This is just using your web of connections and relationships to get
coffee, maybe do a phone call, maybe take them to lunch. But what you've got to do is find the right people. And in the book, we detail all those different people, how they're significant,
what they are teaching you, and then how you approach them. And then, you know, to your question, you're going to need to approach them consistently, understand that these people are busy, they've got a lot going on, and their primary role in life is not to give you a break. And so you've just got to roll with it. And you might get some no's. You might get a lot of no's until you get some yes's. But when you're around them, it's back to that earlier answer.
You better make most of your time. You better realize that the most valuable thing that the right people do for us is they tell us what we need to know, how we need to get there,
They identify other right people that we need to know and connect with, and they point us to the right places. So this is a knowledge game. This is a student approach all the time. You're a human sponge. And when you do that, you will find that you get this tremendous momentum. Proximity allows us to do three things. Learn.
Do connect. And I can't think of a more simple personal growth, professional growth formula than if every day you got up and you learned something new, you did something with that knowledge, and you made sure to intentionally connect. And that's what the power of this little principle does for folks. It positions you where you need to be and propels you to where you want to be.
Yeah, and again, we're talking with Ken Coleman of The Ken Coleman Show and also the author of the new bestseller, The Proximity Principle. If you are struggling with career questions, meaning in your work, what happens next, if you can really pursue your dreams, it's a fantastic book all built on that principle of talking about proximity. So we talked about proximity to people. Let's talk about proximity to...
And I have to say that I cracked up reading about the very first place that you did your broadcast in this horrible little setup inside of a Georgia warehouse in the summer with no air conditioning. And you're in there doing this, you know, I'm sure gesticulating and sharing your viewpoints and recording this thing. And it's getting hotter and hotter and you're sweating. But you made the most of the opportunity that you had. Yeah.
Yeah, I can think of several stories like that. That was a leadership podcast. It was my idea for a local leadership company. I knew the guys. We used to work together, so they gave me a shot. And me and this other guy are standing in this little 4x4 booth, and it's one of those microphones, Shannon, extending from the ceiling, if you will. So we're two feet apart talking to each other on one mic like we're doing a duet, and it was hot outside.
I felt at times, why are we doing this? Is anybody going to listen to this? But it was that moment and another moment that I remember early on hosting a Sewanee Day, which was a town festival, and I was introducing balloon animal artists and clowns. And I remember the low point, Shannon. I introduced a mime, and he came up on stage, and I went to high-five him, not thinking, and he gave me the mime, you know, left me hanging. And then like 15 people were paying attention to me.
And all 15 were laughing at me. And I'm sitting there going, why am I doing this? There's no redeeming thing happening out of this stage moment. Or is this podcast even going to work? But two things came out of those two humble starts. The podcast ended up turning into one of the top
leadership podcast in the evangelical space and gave me the opportunity to really create a reputation as an interviewer. And then the little thing on the stage at Tiswani Town Day, that actually taught me
The value of just showing up when there was no potential benefit at all. Because I remember driving home that night going, I could have been with my wife and three kids all day today. But I'm driving home at 930, haven't seen them all day. Nobody paid attention to anything I did today. What a complete waste of a Saturday. I'll never get to stay back. And as I was kind of griping and gathering myself in the driveway, I had another voice that popped in my mind.
And it said, this is what it's going to take. You're going to have to show up and chop wood deep in the woods when nobody's paying attention. And that's what it has to take. You have to have this mentality that I'm going to do whatever it takes. And then this is the back half. I'm willing to wait as long as it takes. And that can be really, really tough because, you know, you can easily, if you're not really focused and really committed, you can start to waver, um,
I know that you and I have talked about when I got fired from, you know, that first TV job that I had and told how terrible I was that, you know, it really threw me for a loop. And I was told I'd never make it in the business. I'm sure you had conversations like that, too. And I spent months trying to find my next job, and it's really hard in that waiting to
To say, all right, I know there's a lesson here. I'm struggling at some point. I'm going to do I have to abandon this dream. I think it's important to talk about the waiting part of it, because I think for just about every story of somebody that I know who has gotten to where they wanted to be, there is that period of not being sure it's going to happen.
That's right. You know, I'm glad you bring this up there. You know, perseverance has become really sexy, right? We've got, you know, all kinds of motivational books and speeches and talks and little quips and we see them on signs. Everybody loves the perseverance story. We just do. It's in movies. It's in books. We love it.
And there's a reason why we love it because we all understand the journey, the struggle. But the part that seems to always kind of get overlooked in the perseverance stories is the patience because the patience part doesn't make for good movies. It doesn't make for good novels.
But you and I both know that there is no such thing as perseverance without patience. And there's this weird tension between the two because the act of persevering, being persistent, to use another P word, is the get up every day, the hustle, I'm going to go chop wood. I'm going to go chop at this tree. And so we get that. That's an action. We as humans love action. We love progress.
Well, the tension comes in when I'm chopping a dead tree, but I'm day one, day two, day three, day four. It still hasn't fallen yet. Or I'm out here doing everything I'm supposed to do, and I'm not getting noticed yet. The opportunity has yet to present itself. And that's where the –
high achievers and everybody else separate. It's almost like a fork in the road. And I'm telling you, and you know this, Shannon, you've done this. You get to work with people that have done this. You interview people that do this. I don't care what field you're in, the highly successful people, the one key difference is that they refuse to quit. It's so, so true. I just was being interviewed by someone else and
We talked about that. They said, what's your number one piece of advice? And it's really, I think, just don't take no for an answer because so many people I've met along the way who've said, I wish I was doing what you're doing. I was a communications person in school.
And you know, life just got crazy and I got distracted and I took this other job and you know, I wish I'd hung in there. And I always tell people, honestly, outlasting people is, as you said there, it's kind of that fork in the road. It's sort of the separation. It's not like you have to be the most talented, the most well-connected, the most beautiful, the smartest, the most educated.
Honestly, I think so much of it does come down to that idea of perseverance and outlasting other people because every day that you stay in it, the field gets smaller because people are, you know, it just atrophies. They walk away. They say enough of the fight. I don't want to do it anymore.
It's a real test, but I found all the grunt, terrible, boring stuff that I was doing in the beginning that nobody else wanted to do prepared me so that I can be autonomous when I need to be, that I can log tapes and I can write pieces and cut sound bites and all those things I would need to do to be self-sufficient. I find there was purpose in all that. It wasn't just treading water.
No, no, not at all. And, you know, you said something that made me think of something. You talked about just not taking no for an answer. I remember interviewing Soledad O'Brien years ago, and I was asking her about her career in the journalism. And she said that one of the things that she learned early on was to when someone would say no, she would change it in her mind. And it was not a no. It was a not yet or a not here. And I took that idea and years ago came up with a thought.
that we need to turn rejection into redirection. You think of the maze, if you've ever seen some type of video of a mouse trying to make it through maze of the cheese, gotta have that mouse mentality. Those little, they got their sniffer going, they know what the target is, it's the cheese, and they run into that wall.
you know it's a little abrupt then they got inside what am i going to do it every time i've ever seen all those videos that little mouse keeps going to use left or right there's a detour sometimes you get a good backwards in order to go forward and and i think it
What you said there is so powerful. And the other thing, too, that you and I talked about when you were on my show is that you and I, it took us a long time. It took me nine years to step in the dream job. You appreciate it so much more when you get to that mountaintop having had a difficult climb as opposed to taking the elevator, which rarely happens, as you know.
I think that's such a good way to put it because I do and I know that you too appreciate so much every day. I feel it's a blessing and a privilege to do what I do. And you're right. I think if you have to work and scrap and fight that you get that along the way and you do have a deeper appreciation. There's so much good practical information and advice and direction in your book.
I would just encourage people. It's called The Proximity Principle. It's already a bestseller. You will love it. It's by Ken Coleman, who's our guest this week on Live in the Bream. And if you are at any stage in this process, you're unhappy in your job or you have a dream or you're fighting to get there, you're going to find great information and encouragement, I would say, in this book. So, Ken, thank you for writing it. Folks can check you out again on SiriusXM 121. I love Sirius because you can find anything day or night.
But in the afternoons at 2 p.m., I believe it's Eastern, you can find Ken there and so many other places. So check out the book, check out the broadcast, and you will be encouraged wherever you are in this career journey. Ken, thank you so much for joining us on Live in the Brain. Thanks for having me, Shannon.
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