The LeBron James Interview That Almost Happened
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Ryan Reynolds here for, I guess, my 100th Mint commercial. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I mean, honestly, when I started this, I thought I'd only have to do like four of these. I mean, it's unlimited premium wireless for $15 a month. How are there still people paying two or three times that much? I'm sorry.

I'm sorry, I shouldn't be victim blaming here. Give it a try at midmobile.com slash save whenever you're ready. $45 upfront payment equivalent to $15 per month. New customers on first three month plan only. Taxes and fees extra. Speeds lower above 40 gigabytes. See details. Here we go. This is the Skip Bayless Show. Episode 15.

This is the Un-Undisputed. This is everything I cannot share with you during a go-for-the-throat two and a half hours of debate show that is undisputed. This week, I will share this with you. I will tell you all about the time I very nearly interviewed one LeBron James and why it fell through. I will, for the first time, address what became some highly controversial tweets of mine

Way back in 2012, tweets that concern, of all people, Russell Westbrook. Him again. I will, this week, give you my Mount Clutchmore. And I will tell you, this week, why every day, every weekday, I sprint all the way from my dressing room, all the way up to the studio, to do Undisputed. Crazy, but true. But first up, as always, it is time for Not To Be Skipped.

This is the behind the scenes story of my history with one LeBron, Raymond James, senior LeBron James. This is the story of how I came so very close to going to Cleveland back in 2008 to sit with LeBron and interview LeBron for the show I was doing at the time, which was the new first take as we had just moved to Bristol, Connecticut in the mothership of the SBN.

I started closely watching LeBron obviously during his rookie year, but I didn't have the shot, the daily shot at talking about him on a daily TV show until the 04-05 season, which was my first year on a show called Cold Pizza, which was on ESPN2 originating from New York City. And as I watched closely night after night for my gig on Cold Pizza,

I did begin to notice that young LeBron would quit attacking the basket down the stretch of close games and instead start to settle for deeper and deeper three-point shots, all the while me thinking, wait a second, he's looking like the greatest driver of the basketball I've ever seen. What's up with this? And it began to dawn on me that young LeBron feared the late-game free-throw line.

High IQ didn't want the demons of late game free throws to get a hold of his psyche. So he shot threes or he passed and made the right basketball play to teammates for shots to win games or to keep games close late because of his Achilles feel at the free throw line. Remember, 75% career free throw shooter by quote unquote goat standards.

No good. Disqualifies you, LeBron, sir, as the GOAT. But I thought about all this this week because of what the great Shaquille O'Neal said of LeBron, which was nobody has ever feared him. Bingo. That's been the essence of my argument against LeBron and for Michael Jordan as the GOAT is that

LeBron has never been the cold blooded basketball killer and closer that Jordan was, Kobe Bryant was, or that Shaq was. LeBron has never had that give me the ball and get out of my way closer mentality that it takes to be a Jordan or a Kobe or even a Shaq. I do believe, as Shaq believes, that opponents have seen a little doubt flicker in LeBron's eyes late in games.

Shaq knows. And the bottom line for me has always been that LeBron has always been too nice a guy to be considered in the GOAT conversation. Always wanted to be loved too much to be considered in the GOAT conversation. Trust me, Michael Jordan did not care or want to be loved. Michael Jordan simply loved winning. Hence, six finals, six rings, six MVPs.

But I did first guess this on cold pizza. And during those days, my debate partner was Woody Page. But our moderator at that point was one Jay Crawford from Cleveland, Ohio. LeBron nut, of course, even in the early days. And

on a daily basis during the basketball season on cold pizza Jay Crawford would look at me on live TV and and say how how can you say that about LeBron how dare you say that about LeBron so after three years in New York ESPN decided to move us hold pizza up to the mothership in Bristol rebrand us as first take and our new showrunner up at the mothership

was Galen Gordon, close friend of Stephen A. Smith. And by the way, Stephen A. would not join me as a full-time partner on First Take until 2012. We moved up in 2007, and this was 2008. And Galen was the one who had the inspired idea, how about if we set it up for you, Skip, to go interview LeBron in Cleveland? Okay, I'm game.

If LeBron's game, so Galen went through the Cavaliers PR. I believe he worked behind the scenes through LeBron's people. And it was set up that I would interact face to face with one LeBron James. I would go to Cleveland. Jay Crawford, the moderator, would also go to referee in Cleveland. And we would go on a Sunday for a Sunday afternoon game.

And then after the arena cleared, game was over, after LeBron had showered, done all of his media responsibilities, we would have set up at court side. I was told it was going to be actually along the baseline underneath the basket out of bounds. We would have a sort of a makeshift set there. LeBron would come and sit with us for about 30 minutes.

We would go back and forth. We would tape it for the next day's first take. Something we never did because first take, as well as undisputed, is live. Live to live. It's not live to tape. So this was the grand plan. And yet, before I proceed, here's the key to this. I certainly did not fear facing LeBron. I did not dread facing LeBron. I actually looked forward to it. I'm going to say it one more time.

I have never hated LeBron from a distance. I've actually liked him as a guy. I got to know Michael Jordan in 1998 in Chicago. I enjoyed his company, but it's just different than what I view to be LeBron's company. Michael, not the nicest guy. Michael would let you know exactly what he thought about anything and anybody. Michael was mostly into Michael, as you could imagine. And to me,

The nicer guy by far is LeBron James. To me, the more down to earth guy by far is LeBron James. If we're talking about how intrigued you'd be being in the presence of a Michael Jordan, you got me on that because I was intrigued. There is aura, there is mystique.

There is, as my debate partner on Undisputed, Shannon Sharp, says, the feeling that when you walk in the room with Jordan, he's going to levitate like he's not human. That's the difference between Jordan and LeBron. LeBron comes across to me as very human. So I look forward to sitting with him and sort of vibing with him eye to eye and exchanging ideas and thoughts about what made him tick.

The only request or demand we got back from his side was that I come to the game and that I sit courtside for the entire game in position A, like at the 50-yard line at midcourt. And fine, I'm fine with that. And I'm pretty sure the idea was that LeBron and company wanted Cavs fans to boo the hell out of me, to maybe beat me down and soften me up a little bit

for the LeBron interview. I am totally cool with that. I said, bring it on. It's not that I relish getting booed, but I've been booed so many times. It goes with the territory. Some of it can be good natured. Some of it can be mean spirited. I don't care if that's what was required that day. If I had to pay my price of admission, that would be my price I would pay to be admitted into the presence of LeBron, Raymond, James Sr.

Everything was set up. Everything seemed right on schedule. We made our flight reservations, got our tickets, and all of a sudden, everything, in a shock to me, was off. And I'll be honest with you, to this day, I'm not exactly sure why. Maybe I wasn't exactly privy to the why of it. I was just told by Galen Gordon, it's off. He indicated it went to the top of ESPN.

And he indicated, Galen did to me, that there were some demands made by LeBron and company that were simply unacceptable. Again, I'm not sure, I'm assuming those demands pertain to questions. This is fair game, that's not. I do know this about ESPN, they don't play that game. Either all things are on the table or nothing's on the table. And yet, in fairness,

It's also possible the top executives at ESPN finally decided it might be a bad look for ESPN if LeBron and I got into it on television. It wouldn't be live TV, but that we would air it the next day. First Takes ratings at that point were very good. That's why we were the only show in New York that got saved and brought up to the mothership, 2007. But First Takes ratings had not exploded yet. They would in 2011.

When we really not only got on the ESPN map, we took it over. And that was just before Stephen A joined me in 2012 as my permanent partner. But at that point, 2008, I was seen as quote unquote too controversial. I was the proverbial sore thumb that I think ESPN was more comfortable with keeping in the shadows on ESPN2.

So I'm not sure why, I just know it did not happen. Yet, even though it fell through, LeBron did continue to say nice things about me. Did a radio interview just a couple of months thereafter in which LeBron called me his Howard Cosell. Now, for our younger viewers, back in the day, Howard Cosell often interviewed Muhammad Ali

before and definitely after big fights. And Howard Cosell would ask tough questions of Muhammad. And Muhammad would tap dance and playfully deflect said tough questions and even more playfully puncture the enormous ego of one Howard Cosell with the shot at Howard Cosell. So I appreciated that comparison, but only to a point because

In their day, Ali and Cosell obviously were huge figures, but Cosell mostly because of his role on Monday Night Football. The truth was he was more of a bombastic entertainer than I think I am, that I hope I'm not, if you will. Howard was a much bigger celebrity than I am, and Howard wasn't what you call what I aspire to be, which is a truth-telling commentator.

And LeBron, just quick note for you, I'm sorry you never have been or ever will be in my eyes, Muhammad Ali, whom I, if you recently recall, put on my all-time Mount Rushmore. LeBron, no. Ali, yes. So I'm not sure about that comparison. But I did experience one other rather creepy development concerning LeBron. This was sometime in 2009.

I was new to Twitter and one Friday I glanced at my Twitter direct messages, my DMs, and I was shocked to see one that sure sounded like allegedly was from LeBron in my DMs. Well, LeBron did not follow me, so I couldn't figure out how that got in my DMs, and yet

It certainly appeared to be from LeBron and it certainly sounded like LeBron. And the message was, Skip, let's be friends. I'll help you and you help me. Let's go through this together. And I was shook by it, like really interesting. So I decided to sleep on it. And I woke up and thought, I just can't do that. And I went back to my DMs and it was gone.

And trust me, I did not imagine this. And I'm not that tech savvy, so who knows what had happened. I don't know if I got hacked by the wizards who worked on LeBron's social team. I don't know what happened, but I saw it. I wish I could have screen grabbed it at the time, but I didn't think to. Still working at that point with a flip phone. And yet, in the end, it rang so true to me because I

LeBron has always wanted to keep friends close and enemies closer. LeBron is always the one after every game he goes straight to the stars on the other team and hugs them. He goes straight to the opposing coach if they've been around for a while and hugs them and whispers sweet nothings in their ears. LeBron wants so badly to be loved and yet in the end of this, I'm so happy, I'm so blessed that

I didn't connect with him that day in Cleveland and that I didn't answer what appeared to be a legit DM from LeBron. And I'll tell you why. I hark back to a conversation I had way back when, soon after I was out of school at Vanderbilt. I was working out here in Los Angeles at the LA Times. And I had to call a gentleman named Charles Champlin, who was the esteemed

film critic of the LA Times, nationally renowned. And I had to ask him something about a sports movie. I think it was about, this is going way back, called Brian's Song. Maybe you know of it. I won't go into the details. But it had just come out at that point. And Charles answered his phone at the Times. And he knew my byline. And he was very nice to me on the phone. But he asked me a question before I could ask him one. He said,

I don't understand how you guys do your jobs, you sports writers. You get to know everybody that you comment on, that you report on, that you write columns about. You interview them constantly. Charles Champlin said, there's no way I want to get to know Hollywood stars that I have to critique in my film criticism, my movie reviews, because we're all human and I might get to like them too much.

He said, I get invited all the time to cocktail parties, cocktail hours with stars, directors. No way I'm going. I don't want to know any of them. And it struck me, yeah, that can be a real bottom line problem to sports writing, sports casting, is that our fans want us to interact.

with the stars rub elbows with the stars come on and say I know so-and-so I had dinner with so-and-so and I called so-and-so and yet every time you do that they're buying insurance from you that you'll protect them that you won't criticize them so I look back at the interview falling through and the DM disappearing and I think thank you God blessing in disguise fate intervene because

If I'd sat with LeBron in Cleveland that day, that Sunday, I probably would have liked him. Maybe I would have connected with him. Maybe we would have exchanged numbers. We probably would have. Keep in touch. Anything you need, let me know. And maybe I would have lost some objectivity about LeBron. Maybe I would have started pulling some punches on television.

Maybe I would have started protecting when that little voice in the back of my head was saying, come on, don't let him get away with this, which leads me to the 2011 finals. After all that had happened, it felt like LeBron had finally decided I was a lost cause. And if you recall, he was new to the heels as in the Miami Heat.

They won game three at Dallas in the NBA finals, 2011, to go up two games to one. And my friend Stephen A. Smith told me soon after that he was told that LeBron went straight back to his hotel room in Dallas and he made a list of people that he was going to tell, I told you so, and you so, and you so. And Stephen A. told me that

That number one on that I told you so list was yours truly, was me. And of course, as you probably remember, you blind witnesses have probably tried to forget, LeBron promptly went out in games four, five and six and played the three worst finals games of his career all in a row. Chosen one became the frozen one. In those three games, he averaged only 15 points a game.

From three, he was two of 12 in those three games. From the free throw line, he was four of 10 in those three games. He averaged five turnovers in those three games, including six turnovers in what became the closeout game six. In those three games, LeBron James was a minus 41, plus minus of minus 41. And in the closeout game, he was a minus 24.

He shrank, he closed up, he disappeared. The Heetals, of course, blew that 2-1 lead and lost in six. And on ESPN, I could only shrug and say, I told you so with complete objectivity.

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This episode is brought to you by Honda. When you test drive the all-new Prologue EV, there's a lot that can impress you about it. There's the class-leading passenger space, the clean, thoughtful design, and the intuitive technology. But out of everything, what you'll really love most is that it's a Honda. Visit Honda.com slash EV to see offers. I think it's time to take a question from you. Question from the audience. I like this one. Dalton from San Mateo, California.

birthplace of one Thomas Edward Patrick Brady Jr. Dalton asks, who makes your Mount Rushmore of most clutch players of all time? Aha, a Mount Clutchmore. Intriguing question, Dalton. Obviously, I could still stick with my all-time Rushmore of sports stars, which was Jordan, Brady, Ali, and Tiger Woods. For sure, Jordan and Brady are

Obviously must transfer straight on to Mount Clutchmore. But I'll go in two different directions for my other two spots up on Clutchmore. Joe Montana was Tom Brady before Tom Brady. I used to be the biggest Montana fan until Brady turned me completely around and away from Montana. But Joe was four for four in Super Bowls, Jordan-esque, but more to the point.

I was there at the 1979 Cotton Bowl in Dallas, Texas. It was the worst ice storm Dallas had suffered through in 30 years. To me, I didn't suffer through the one 30 years before, but it had to be the all-time worst. It was a miserable day. Heard the stories from John Gruden, who I believe was in high school at that point, was at the game with his father who coached on the Notre Dame staff.

Standing on the sideline, it was so cold his father said, "You can't stay out here. It's just too cold." Again, they're from South Bend, Indiana at this point, obviously. Too cold, you had to go sit in the team bus, the engine running, the heater on. You won't survive it out here just standing alone without being able to move much. It was freezing, at least I was in the press box, and it was heated. But you probably have heard the story, the chicken soup story.

Joe Montana suffered from hypothermia. He was already suffering from the flu. And at halftime, he had to eat chicken, a whole bowl of chicken soup, just to get his temperature back to somewhat normal. But he missed the entire third quarter of that game as Houston surged ahead 34-12 after three quarters. And here came Mr. Hypothermia back into the game. And here came Notre Dame.

And Joe outscored Houston in the third, I'm sorry, the fourth quarter, 23 to nothing. 23 to nothing. They were with the wind in the fourth quarter, but still 23 to nothing. I'd never seen anything like it before. I just sat there in awe of the comeback, which was capped off eight-yard touchdown pass at the buzzer to win the game 35 to 34. They did have to kick the extra point, but that was Clutchmore.

And I was there that day at Candlestick Park, January 10th, 1982, a day that lives in infamy for Cowboy Nation. I was covering the Cowboys, columnist at that point, Dallas Times Herald. Do I have to make you suffer through it again? 49ers faced a third and three at the six-yard line with 58 seconds left. Joe dropped back, and he dropped back some more, and he scrambled to his left, and he dropped back some more.

and threw a fall away pass over two tall Jones and Dee Dee Lewis of the Cowboys up into the fog out of which it was snatched by six foot three inch Dwight Clark who rose up into said fog and pulled down what was soon to be called the catch. San Francisco 28, Cowboys 27. That last pass has been disputed. Montana's all but acknowledged, yeah,

Maybe I was trying to throw it out of bounds, or maybe I wasn't. But Dwight Clark caught it over a rookie named Everson Walls, undrafted out of Grambling State. But forget about the last pass. And just remember, Joe Montana went 83 yards and 14 plays for that touchdown. 83 and 14, clutch more. I was there for Super Bowl XXIII in Miami, front row of the press box, 39 seconds left.

Joe Montana to John Taylor, 10 yards for the game winner. San Francisco 20, Cincinnati 16. Montana in that game 23 of 36 for 3-5-7. Yet Jerry Rice won the MVP because I think the votes were in long before that. Votes are usually taken with about two minutes left in the game so they can announce it almost immediately after the game.

And I think if votes had been taken after the final play of the game, I'm pretty sure Montana would have won. Nothing against Jerry Rice, but I think that was Montana's MVP to win. That was Clutchmore, all of which is why Joe Montana belongs. And in my final slot on Clutchmore, understand my favorite baseball team growing up was the St. Louis Cardinals. We grew up in Oklahoma City.

We could get out of St. Louis the 50,000-watt KMOX featuring Harry Carey and Jack Buck on the play-by-play. So I became a Cardinals diehard, and I became the biggest fan of one Bob Gibson, the greatest big-game pitcher ever in my estimation. He belongs on Clutchmore. Remember, no playoffs at that point except for the World Series, just National League versus American League.

Bob Gibson pitched in 3-1-2 with two MVPs, went 7-2 in those games. Eight of the nine were complete games. He had a World Series ERA of 1.89, pitched in three game sevens, beat the Yankees of Mantle and Marist at Old Bush Stadium in St. Louis in 1964. He beat the Red Sox in Carl Yastrzemski.

at Fenway in a game seven in 1967. And he did lose a game seven to the great Mickey Lulich of the Tigers in 1968. But in that game, Curt Flood, the great Curt Flood, misplayed a fly ball center field that probably cost Bob Gibson the game and a third MVP in a third game seven win. Clutchmore. I loved him so much that after I finished

My final baseball season after my senior year of high school, a friend of mine and I drove all the way to Houston for a Friday night game, St. Louis at Astros, just to watch Bob Gibson work. And as usual that night, he shut out the Astros in like two hours and five minutes because every game he pitched was two hours and something change. Just give me the damn ball and get back in the box because I'm about to throw it. Baddest man who ever threw a baseball.

Clutchmore. Let's take one more question from the audience, shall we? I like this one. A little offbeat, but maybe you'll be intrigued. This is Samir from Chicago asking, do you still sprint up to the Undisputed Studio before every show? I do. Every single day, I sprint. This began back in Bristol, Connecticut at ESPN at the Mothership in 2007, aforementioned.

When I had to sprint all the way across that campus, and it is up in Bristol, it's like a huge college campus, but I had to sprint all the way from the meeting room across campus to the studio. And I was always running late. So I literally ran day after day. And the more I ran, the more I realized it really got my blood pumping. It got my adrenaline flowing again. I always do cardio regularly.

before the morning meeting, but I like the feel of the sprint. I like getting my RPM popping again, and I liked how it honed my focus because I'll say it again, we are live, and live TV for me is all about preparation first, a lot of it the night before, concentration during the show, and it's about energy.

my energy will pull you into the screen because if I'm not excited, you won't be excited. And trust me, I am popping out of my suit with excitement every morning to take on Shannon Sharp on Undisputed. So I still run from my dressing room down a long hall on the first floor here at Fox, on the Fox lot, West LA. I run up two flights of stairs,

I run down another hall and around a corner into the studio where a woman named Bonnie is always waiting patiently for me to mic me up. My wife Ernestine likes to say I wait till the last second because I like to live my life on the edge. She thinks it's crazy. She thinks I'm gonna do my heart in. She just thinks it's how I'm built, how I'm programmed. I have to wait until the last second until I actually have to run

so that I won't be late to a show that starts at 6:30 AM here Pacific time on the dot. We're not taping, we're live, can't miss it. I have not missed one opening of one show in 18 years on live television. But now I fear I just jinxed myself, so just watch, tomorrow I'll be late. If you will so allow, I would now like to address in full

a controversy I endured about 10 years ago. This was in the earlier days of 140 character Twitter. You remember those days? 140 character limit on Twitter. For me, those were days of abbreviated words and terribly abbreviated thoughts. Now it's twice as much, which is more my style if you follow me on Twitter.

Here's the irony of what happened. I was tweeting about how Russell Westbrook in 2012 was struggling mightily to be the point guard of the Oklahoma City Thunder. So my early instincts were dead on about Russell Westbrook and what a shockingly bad point guard he was and would be and would get exposed as this year with the Lakers.

Worst hands I've ever seen on a point guard on any level. High school, college, NBA, Westbrook. So I'm tweeting about the issues he was facing at point guard. And in a couple of, oh, by the way, tweets, I was saying I identified with Russ because I grew up in Oklahoma City, which I never could have fathomed, imagined having an NBA team. It's impossible.

An NBA team in Oakland? All we had was minor league hockey. Our pro team was University of Oklahoma football and to a certain extent basketball, but mostly football. That was it. Period. End of story. We got an NBA team and that team featured Russ and KD and James Harden. It's impossibly great and crazy. And yet here I was tweeting, I know how it feels because I had a high school basketball coach

who tried to turn me into a point guard, and I just wasn't. I was nothing but a shooter, and that coach did not like me, and I had some of the most miserable times of my life under that coach at what was called Northwest Classen High School, still there in Oklahoma City. But the irony of this was I was tweeting about Westbrook, and further irony, as I've said on a previous podcast, I wound up just a couple of months later tweeting

Going to those finals in Oklahoma City with so many Thunder fans sending me death threats on Twitter that I needed 24-hour protection. I needed a bodyguard who worked for the police commissioner out here in LA. What a stud he was. To watch over me 24 hours in my hometown where I tried and failed to play high school basketball all because of Russell Westbrook.

It's almost like I've been cosmically connected to Russ from the start. Weirdest dynamic in my life. And here he is out here in LA and he's still Westbrook getting exposed. So I tweeted that I did start for my high school team, which actually got all the way to the finals and lost. All that's true. But a website went back into my high school records, the stats, and

and found that I started only three games. I did, I started three games for that team and I averaged only 1.4 points per game for that team. Well, nobody knew that better than me because by that point I was writing columns for the school paper while playing basketball and my much better sport, baseball, and I would make an all area team after my senior year of high school in baseball. But

the controversy erupted. I had exaggerated, I had embellished, I had in many cases, from many points of view, fabricated my high school basketball career. I mentioned that early on, I thought I was the next Pete Maravich. I'll tell you why in just a moment. But on ESPN, even my friend Jalen Rose went after me

Pete Maravich, you're pistol Pete Maravich, said Jalen on the air to me on first take. 1.4, well, nobody knew that better than me because I was in charge of the yearbook section and I was the one who had to put the stats in the yearbook that people found. My responsibility. When you hear my story, you'll be surprised I averaged even 1.4 my senior year. But here is the quick story of my rise and fall in the sport of basketball.

And maybe all of you out there can relate on some level to a rise and fall in a sport. And I want you to understand as I tell this story, this rise and fall drives me to this very day. It drove me into this business, the frustration of the rise and then fall, and it powers me to this day. This coach, whose name was Don Banpool, legendary at my high school,

I think about often to this day, this coach is for you. I'm doing this because of you. I thank you for what you did and didn't do for me because here I am and here I go. Quick story. Eighth grade, I was at what was called Taft Junior High School, largest junior high in Oklahoma City, sorry, in the state of Oklahoma.

We had about 700 in seventh grade and 700 in eighth grade. This is pre-middle school. So it was a two-grade junior high with about, let's estimate, 1,400 kids, maybe closer to 1,500. And then ninth, tenth, eleventh, and twelfth would cross the street at Northwest Glasson High School. So this is Taft Junior High. And I told last week the story of how

on my 14th birthday during that year. It became the greatest year of my life because my mother forced my father to go buy me a cheap little motorcycle so that she didn't have to take me anywhere and broken home, no rules, no curfew. I was free, man. At 14, I could go wherever, whenever, however I wanted to. I was mobile. So I had time while other kids had carpools to take them home.

I stayed after school in September of my eighth grade year because we had a new basketball coach named Jay Stevens who took to me right away. I was tall for my age. I was probably as tall then as I am now, maybe 5'11"ish in eighth grade. And he saw right away I could shoot it. I can still shoot it. I still play. I can still shoot the lights out when I get going. Well, I could really shoot it then.

And he would keep me after school to shoot hundreds of shots. He would rebound for me. And the problem was he's pushing me farther and farther out, 20 feet, 25 feet. There's no three-point line. So these shots counted only two with a high degree of difficulty. But Jay Stevens was so taken by me and the other talent we had on our eighth grade team that he scheduled us to play four ninth grade teams during that season.

One of those ninth grade teams was from what was called Old Claassen High School. They came to Taft to play. It's a great old school. It still stands. It's a great old building, corner of 23rd and May Avenue in Oklahoma City. If you're ever there, you could drive by it stately. It has a great gym with a great wooden floor that's like a springboard trampoline.

And when old class since ninth grade team came over, we beat them. They had a kid named Dick Miller on their team who was about twice our size and we zoned him like Gulliver and the Lilliputians. And I got hot and I made, I've got one of those biographical memories. You can ask my teammates this if you want to verify. I made eight straight free throws in the last two minutes of that game and we won it.

And there were no seats, but there was open space on the right side of the floor. So much of the school would come to the games and just stand like 10 deep on one side of the floor. And it got loud and crazy in there. And I was whatever you do at that age. I wasn't really dating, but I was going steady with a girl from across the street at the high school who was older than me. Her name, odd as it may sound, was Gayla Junk. I saw her not too long ago. And

She was great. We had quite a run together before she and her family moved to Tulsa. And that was the end of that. No long distance relationship, even though it's only an hour and a half away. But Gail Ajunt came up and hugged me sweaty as I was after that big win over Klassen. And that was the greatest moment of my basketball life. And I look back now and say, God gave me that moment just to say, I'm going to give you a little taste of this just to see how it feels so that you can relate to

when you do what I want you to do later in your life, which is this. What a year that was. Greatest year of my life. Final game that year at a school called John Marshall, I scored 21, and I'm pretty sure that was the most points any individual scored for our eighth grade team. We were called the Royals, Taft Royals, that year. Not dead sure about that, but I'm pretty sure. I just know the team gave me a standing ovation when Jay Stephens read

my bottom line of 21 points after the game. On the final day of school that year at Taft, I was selected and honored with athlete of the year. I got to walk up on stage and Jay Stevens gave me a brand new leather basketball, which I proceeded to take right out on the concrete pavement of my driveway and tear all the pieces because the leather doesn't work on the concrete, but who knew?

But I was the athlete of the year in a school with maybe 1,500 kids. And I'm pretty proud of that. And that summer, my friend and rival on the team named Bruce Scott, it would be he or I who would score the most points in the eighth grade games. We attended a big basketball camp that attracted kids from all over Oklahoma and Texas that was at McGinnis High School in Oklahoma City, run by the Iba family. Maybe you've heard of Henry Iba, the great basketball.

Oklahoma State coach who coached our Olympic team in basketball. And one of the coaches at the camp was the great Eddie Sutton. So it was illustrious. And I had another week of my life. And on Saturday night at the awards ceremony, I won MVP of that camp. It was in the paper the next morning in Oklahoma City. Just a little blurb.

But my friend Bruce Scott was the runner up for MVP. His parents were not happy. My mother wasn't there. She did pick me up a little later and she heard Bruce's mother yelling at me and she couldn't figure out why. My son should have won the MVP. Time of my life. Bruce and I then in ninth grade played for an AAU select team that made it to the state finals. I was awful in the state finals game, but we got there and

I think it was between Bruce and I, we were just stocked with kids who had gone to be All-State in either football or basketball. I think either one of us would have been the leading scorer on that team back and forth, which is why I thought at that point I was going to become my favorite player, Pete Maravich. Bruce Scott has been quoted, was quoted soon after the controversy broke over my tweets in 2012.

told the Oklahoman that if I had transferred before high school and gone to a rival high school like John Marshall, that I would have easily averaged, he threw out 18 points a game. This is in the era of you scored 40 to 50 points total in a high school basketball game, maybe 60, but that I would have averaged 18 a game. And I might have at John Marshall, but we would have probably lost most, if not all of our games, certainly lost to Northwest, which was just loaded.

with talent year after year. It was a basketball factory, which is why I then careened headlong into the worst year of my life. I didn't have any parental guidance. I didn't have a father to fight for me or a big brother to guide me. And I realized right away as a sophomore at Northwest that the coach just did not like me. Wasn't his cup of tea, Don Vanpool. They had won just a couple of years before the state championship.

They were about to win another state championship in 1968, just loaded with talent. I was running gun, that's all we did at tap. We didn't have any plays. It was either Bruce's turn or my turn, we just shot it. We'd shoot it from 25 feet when there was no three-point line. Don Van Poole was meat and potatoes. Pound the ball into the post, set picks, drive to the basket. There was no 25-footer shot for Don Van Poole. He said, I was too loose with the basketball.

Suddenly everybody was catching up to me in height and passing me in height. You need to play point guard. I'm not very good. I wasn't much of a passer. I don't have that natural LeBron gift for seeing and feeling before it happens. I could just shoot it. He didn't want me to shoot it. And slowly but surely, I drifted down the depth chart. Bruce rose up the depth chart. Bruce Scott did. And before I knew it,

He not only made the varsity, he was contributing to a team and played for a team through the state playoffs that won it all. I barely got to play for the B squad, the junior varsity. The humiliation I suffered that year was devastating. Friends would ask, what's going on? What happened? I don't know. I guess I'm just not good enough. Confidence was shattered. Didn't have anybody to turn to.

I was ashamed to show my face during basketball season in those hallways, largest high school in the state. And I went from big man on campus at Taft to hoping to be little man on campus because I was just hoping nobody would see me. My junior year, we started two players.

who went on to get D1 scholarships, Steve Mitchell, who's State Player of the Year, and John Sheetum. In my senior year, we had three D1 players in our starting lineup. So again, that's very unusual for a high school program to have three. We were loaded. Yet going into my senior year, silly me, I still thought I would start every game because I was just that good, even if he didn't like me. And lo and behold, what do I figure out?

Early in practice, as we got ready for the season, Don Van Poole had transferred in his son named Donnie from Southeast High School to Northwest High School, and he began to start Donnie above me. Today, it seems like parents would go protest. I didn't have any parents to protest. I didn't know enough. I was like a good kid, so you just kind of do what the coach says. And he said I wasn't good enough.

And Donnie started. He was a little bigger than me, a little taller, a little bulkier, a little stouter, but he wasn't better than me. We were ranked number one all year. I got to play a good bit. I did start three games because he was mad at Donnie. And I didn't play very well in those starts, but

I did get to play in stretches more as a defensive specialist than offense. And all I knew in those games was if I dared to shoot and miss, especially from any distance, at the next dead ball, I was sitting over there next to the coach. I was out of the game. Don Van Poole never said a single nice word to me. Not one word of encouragement. I just played.

I didn't know. I just played. I can tell you every shot I shot my senior year of high school, and I can tell you every shot I made. I can tell you I scored five points against Southeast and the great Darryl Porter, and I guarded him much of that game because Donnie couldn't. I'm pretty sure Darryl only scored five. He led that. We were called the Mid-State Conference. He led it in scoring. I think he only scored five that game. I had a lot of help. Everybody was helping, but I had him for much of the game, and I scored five.

five more points at John Marshall and I scored two against our arch rival called Putnam City. And that two point shot, I will tell you to this day, I think about it. I shot it from the top of the circle, nearly a three point shot. And as it left my hand, it felt wrong. And I yelled short and it switched. I wanna talk about embarrassment. Everybody heard me yell short, but it was so loud in the arena because it's such an arch rivalry.

band pool, the coach could not hear it, or he probably would have snapped me right out of the game. But we did win that game. It's probably my best all-around game. And I played in spurts until I started a game fairly late in the year at home. And I played so poorly that I got dog housed. He took me out in like two minutes. I passed our big man who was, he might've been, his name was Ron Romborg. He went to the Houston scholarship.

I think he might have been player of the year in Oklahoma that year. And I passed him the ball to start the game. I passed so hard it went right through his hands out of bounds. And I'm pretty sure I was dog housed after that. We played in the state finals against Norman High School. Trey Young went to Norman North High School in Norman, Oklahoma.

And we lost, and I didn't get to play a second until there were probably 20 seconds left and the game was out of hand. And Van Poole pointed down the bench, going the game because I was a senior, and he just wanted me to step on the court and feel what it felt like to say I could tell my grandkids, don't have any, that I played in the state finals. I look back on it. I wish I'd said no. I wish I had. Good kid. Coach told me to go in, so I went in.

for the last mop up 20 seconds of the state finals. So when I look back on 1.4 points a game, I don't even know how I got to that because there were many games I played in that I promise you I did not shoot one shot. But I went on baseball. I had lettered in baseball when I was a sophomore. Proud of that. It's hard to do at our school. Started as a junior at shortstop. Started as a senior. I was a natural catcher. So I went back to catcher as a senior. We had a very good catcher when I was a junior.

I was always a good hitter. As I mentioned, I made the all-area team after my senior year. And I went on to Vanderbilt. They asked me to come out for baseball because I was on full scholarship, a sports writing scholarship called the Grantland Rice. And I continued to play my first love, my true love, which was basketball. Continued to play pickup games, played intramural at Vanderbilt, and always made the all-intramural team, sophomore, junior, senior. And when I got to Dallas to be the columnist first at the Dallas Morning News,

I started playing pickup games at what was called the Aerobics Center in North Dallas, state-of-the-art fitness center, nice gym, full court. And I wound up playing with and against a lot of Dallas Cowboys in the offseason in these games. And one Friday, fatefully, I wound up in a pickup game with my idol, to me the greatest cowboy ever, Captain America, Roger Staubach, Captain Comeback.

Roger had been forced into retirement a year or two before he wanted because of concussions. He was 38 at that point. I was 29. And one fateful afternoon on a Friday at the aerobics center, I went crazy hot. I am highly capable of going crazy cold or hot. It's kind of the way I'm built. I was so hot that when the pickup game ended,

Roger came over and sat by me. He never really liked me as a columnist. He sort of tolerated me. And he may have said this just because I was the lead columnist of the Dallas Morning News. But he said, and I quote, I've never seen anybody get that high. I made everything just crazy shots. I started I just went unconscious, you know, the twilight zone. I went there and maybe two weeks passed and.

I was playing with a friend of mine who also played for the Cowboys and the Oakland Raiders named Pat Toomey, who also, as I did, went to Vanderbilt. Pat was about 6'6", 260 at that point, winding down his career for the Raiders. But he knew Roger, and we were just playing horse one afternoon at the aerobics center, and Roger had a friend with him from his Staubach Company's real estate outfit that began to dominate Dallas.

And Roger said, let's play two on two. Okay. Pat actually played freshman basketball at Vanderbilt as well as football. Pat was really good and really big. And we vibed off each other. He would come and pick for me and Roger guarded me and Roger couldn't guard me because I would just

pick him off, pick him off pad, 6'6", 260, maybe more, maybe 270 at that point, pass rusher, defensive end. And we just wore him out, three straight games. And Roger was hot. Roger always got hot. Craziest competitor I ever been around, Roger Staubach. Roger wanted revenge. I saw him two, three days later, again at the aerobics center. I would go in the afternoons,

on my off days, which would be during the week, because I worked every Saturday and Sunday. And I saw him one day and he said, "Hey, I want a rematch." Fine. He said, "Friday, three o'clock here." Okay. He said, "It's already set up with Pat." Well, he knew Pat and I thought, "Okay, great. I'll be here, three o'clock." So I show up at three and the gym at the aerobics center is shut down. Roger has gotten the gym closed

for this rematch. And I look over and they've pulled out the little stands. They had stands they could pull out that were like, I don't know, five or six rows. And he had, I don't know, eight or 10 people from his real estate firm had come to watch this. Well, little did I know, I was about to play the basketball game of my life for my life. Tell you why.

There was no Pat Toomey. Pat told me later and was furious about this, that he told Roger he couldn't make it on Friday because some furniture was gonna be delivered and he had to stay home. I didn't know this. Roger brought another friend of his to be my teammate and Roger brought a designated defender to defend me.

That defender was Cliff Harris, also known as Crash Harris, also recently retired as a Dallas Cowboy, now in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Cliff Harris played safety. Cliff Harris was a kamikaze hitter, a crazed hitter, known for hitting people. And Roger brought him to guard me, me. And I gotta tell you, I was shook because I

Given Cliffs reputation and the fact he definitely never liked me as a columnist I wrote one thing he didn't like work I called him the weak safety because that was the cowboy terminology and he was furious with me I'm not the weak safety. I'm the free safety. He didn't like the weak designation even after that sometimes told interviewers that My criticism of him kept him out of the Hall of Fame these many years because he got in as a veteran whatever

But now I'm faced at the aerobic center, closed down with Cliff Harris guarding me. And I'm thinking, am I about to get an quote unquote inadvertent elbow in the chops and lose four or five teeth? Highly possible. I played that day like I played for Don Van Poole back at Northwest Class in high school. I played scared. I played tentative. I played shaky. I played terrible. But

To Cliff Harris's credit, he did not cheap shot me. He played clean, but he played hard. He played physical. When I drove it, he knocked me into the first row, but cleanly, not cheap shot-ily. I was not hurt except my pride. We played full court two on two. Who plays full court two on two? Roger.

He's going to get even with me. He's going to wear me out and wear me down and humiliate me and annihilate me with Cliff Harris guarding me. And they did. They ran us literally out of the gym. Well, my teammate, I didn't even know him. He's a friend of Rogers. He's a ringer. He's a plant. He wouldn't come pick for me. I couldn't get any sense of what he wanted to do. So I just tried to create shots on my own. And I did a

an abominable job of it. It was my worst nightmare and it was my dream come true because when it ended, I'm sitting on the side dripping sweat and the thought hit me. My idol, Roger Staubach, just brought Cliff Crash Harris to guard me who averaged 1.4 points a game in high school, to guard me. As nightmarish as that seems, I realized,

I just experienced the height, the pinnacle of whatever my basketball career was. My ultimate nightmare became my ultimate dream come true. Thank you, Captain America. That is it for episode 15. I want to thank you for listening and/or watching. I want to thank Jonathan Berger and his All-Pro team for making this show go. I want to thank Tyler Horn for producing.

Remember, Undisputed, every weekday, 9.30 to noon Eastern. The Skip Bayless Show, every week.