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Just a note, this episode discusses suicidal thoughts and addiction. So please listen with care. Um, how are you? Most people answer that question with "fine" or "but obviously it's not always fine and it's usually not even that good." This is a podcast that asks people to be honest about their pain. To just be honest about how they really feel about the hard parts of life. And guess what? It's complicated.

I'm Nora McInerney, and this is Terrible. Thanks for asking. Two weeks ago, we introduced you all to Anna, a 33-year-old woman currently going through a divorce with her husband, Greg. Last December, after seven complicated years together, lots of love and lots of confusion and frustration, Greg told Anna that he's gay. I felt my body take a deep breath in.

that reached places I hadn't unclenched in seven years. This thing washed over me in a way where it just all made sense. And I finally could hear this person that all I wanted this entire time was for him to just say anything real and have me be able to hear it.

If you haven't listened to that episode, go back and do that. It's called Everything, All of You. That's Anna's story. Over the last 10 months, Anna and Greg have navigated not only their divorce from each other, but also what each of them learned from this relationship. Anna often ignored her instincts that something was wrong and didn't ask for what she needed. The point of Anna's story is not just that it's the story of that divorce, but it's that

It's her story of their divorce. And her story is teaching her about how she takes care of herself. And that was going to be the end of the story.

But then in the fact-checking process, our producer Claire McInerney reached out to Greg. So I was just kind of telling him, I'm just double-checking. You're okay with us talking about your sexuality and your drug addiction. You know, as Anna understood it, kind of told him what was covered. And then I said, if you wanted to talk to us, the door is still open. And he responded like three days later and he said, I'm in. I'm off on Wednesdays. And it was a Tuesday. Okay.

So I called him the very next day and we talked for hours. I just think like it would feel disingenuous to your experience to not give it the same like time and scope that she did. And I think just hearing both sides of why a marriage broke up is, you know,

Fair to you both. Yeah. You know? Well, thank you. Thank you very much that the representation, I mean, that was my, like when she first told me about it, I was like, Oh my God, everybody in the world is going to think I'm a fucking monster. Like, you know what I mean? That was my first reaction, but yeah. What we learned from Anna in the last episode was she met a guy, fell in love with him. He had a drug addiction through most of their relationship. And then seven years in told her he was gay. Everything I knew about Greg was intense, intense.

It could be easy to paint him as a liar or maybe even a manipulator. But as I told Greg at the beginning of our interview, the one thing Anna told me that I kept in the back of my mind is that Greg had a years-long drug addiction. I have loved many addicts in my life, so I know what it feels like to be Anna. I've been lied to. I've had someone I love hold me at arm's length. A previous version of myself would have heard Anna's story and only felt sympathy for how she was wronged.

But some of these people I love have gotten sober. And while we rebuilt those relationships, I've gained more empathy for what it's like to be in the addict's shoes. I've learned why they liked using so much, and why they used so much. And what it all boils down to is that for some reason, specific to their life experiences, they hate living in their mind. So when I was working on Anna's episode, I never thought, Greg is a monster. I thought...

I bet Greg's been in pain for a really long time. So when Greg emailed Claire and said, actually, he would do an interview, we knew that he needed his own episode. One of the most painful moments of Anna's life, the night that Greg told her he was gay and needed a divorce, was also a painful moment for Greg.

But it was also a painful moment in a long, long, long string of painful moments. My family deals with a lot of depression. We have a lot of suicide in my family. But my first memory as a child was being in the backseat of a minivan and looking up in the sky and saying,

Or just thinking, like, I don't want to do this. Like, I don't want to be here. I don't, like, this isn't, I don't like this. I don't like this. Something's not, like, right, you know? That mentality has stayed with me my entire life, you know? My story is so deep-rooted in shame and just depression, drugs,

Greg grew up the youngest of three siblings. He has two older sisters, a mom, and a dad who is busy working a lot. In many ways, Greg had the standard upbringing of any 35-year-old man in America, which means being gay wasn't really okay.

I grew up in this toxic masculine. I mean, we all know the 80s, 90s, early aughts. Like, God damn it. What were we doing? And it's devastating to look back on some of that time. I grew up in an environment which like, if you were gay, you're done. Like, there is no option for you. And you're probably going to, you're just immediately cast off.

Greg's understanding of his sexuality when he was growing up was vague. He doesn't have any big moments of clarity he can point to in his childhood. There's no big, oh, I'm gay moment. Instead, he has memories of feeling uncomfortable, but not being able to understand or express why. I remember I must have been in like...

seventh grade and my friend had a computer so he showed us porn and it was just like what the fuck is this um i i'll like i'll never forget the image of the first thing i saw and i was like holy shit no thank you like my first reaction to porn was like what the fuck

They're just letting you do, what is this? You know, my little seventh grade brain could not comprehend what I was looking at. They were like, oh man, that's awesome. You know, and I'm just like, that looks terrifying. Like what the fuck? Um, and so it didn't like click then, but, um, because also like I was raised by women and I was, um, uh,

I have always had a feminine side to me that like, I have just been like, don't let anybody see that. You know what I mean? Even before like understanding the sexuality, having sisters in the arts community and theater community and ballet community, like I met and hung out

with a lot of gay people and in like at our house. And they was just like, yeah, this is great. You know? Um, and like, there was never any feeling of like, this is weird or this is bad or any of that. It was just like, so I was around gay people. So I knew they existed and I always had a great time with them. Like every time I was around my sister's friends or anything like that, or, you know, it was just like, this feels right. This feels natural. This is so lovely. Um,

But that was the vacation twilight. You know, that was the, they're hanging out outside of what my day to day is. And my day to day was very much like, don't, you're, you're, there is, you can't, that is not an option. Like you, you cannot be gay. You cannot be gay. In my world of hockey, the word gay, fag, all of those things were just thrown out all the time. Like after I decided to quit hockey, I played in metal bands and hardcore bands and, and

And so that was my facade, right? That was my cape. It was like, I'm not gay. I played hockey. I'm, you know, I'm, I'm hardcore about hockey. I'm not gay. I play in this metal band. But anytime that I wanted to even examine, um, my sexuality or anything of that nature, like at that age, it was always met with like extreme negativity. Um, and,

In high school, there was only one openly gay person and he was in the theater department and I used to have lunch with him. I used to hang out with the theater crowd because some of them knew my sister because they had acted together. They were older. So I felt like I had this connection. I had this window into who I was. Because this feels natural. This feels comfortable. Being with these individuals feels better than being with my friends, right? So hanging out with the gay kid.

You're gay. You're a fag. People called me gay my entire life. You know what I mean? Like, man, you're gay. You're weird. And I like, I just tried to brush it off as like, no, I'm just a silly person. You know, I didn't allow myself to even examine that. Um, uh, you know, there was this, you know, the moment that I'm describing that I'm coming back to is like the, this guy, uh, who, uh,

who was gay and he was so nice. He was such a sweet person and he still is, I'm sure. And he invited me to come have a sleepover with him. And I wanted to so, so fucking bad. Like I really did. I remember it so vividly and I wanted to just, and I wanted to like explode, you know, I wanted to just be like, Hey man, like I'm feeling all these things. Um, I think at that point I wouldn't allow myself to see, um,

Boys and men as like an option it was more of like this is safe this feels safe And so all I was doing was try to find some level of security. I said no Because somebody else was standing nearby and I knew that if I had said yes that person was like Greg and this guy are fucking you know what I mean? And then it was just gonna be like well, I can't I can't live like I can't do that you know because also

There was also this other extreme layer of like, this is going to get in the way of my drugs. I mean, I started going to a therapist, uh, I think in middle school because my sister wanted, wanted to go to a therapy and she got on meds. Um,

pretty early. And so my mom was like, well, obviously you're going to need to go on meds. So I got really good at telling the doctor I have anxiety. I have depression. I got panic attacks. Well, 20 years ago, third, 25 years ago, the first thing they're going to give you is a script for Klonopin or Xanax or whatever. They're like, all right, take a 0.25 milligram every time you're nervous. I'm over here taking six milligrams every time, you know what I mean? And then I'm,

finding ways to sell this or finding like, Oh, Percocet is this. Okay. Well, oxys are this like, you know? And so that was the thing. So when I think about my sexuality by way of like coming into puberty and adulthood and, and that process, like, um, I didn't even allow that to happen. You know, I like, did I watch gay porn? Um,

Yeah. Did I tell anybody about that? Fucking no. Absolutely not. Like, I hid everything. And I was already conditioned to it because I was hiding my drug addiction. Like, everybody fucking knew. I was not smooth back then. But my mom wasn't saying anything.

My dad didn't say anything. They knew. In talking to them now, they're like, yeah, we knew something was going on. I'm like, do you understand that I pawned a lot of shit to get drug money? Like, do you understand this? You know, do you understand that when you had back surgery, I stole your entire prescription? As far as examining sexuality, that didn't really come out

Or like I didn't even get that opportunity because every chance that it did present, it was immediate something negative happened. And so I always associated gay with bad. And these feelings I have are bad. And who I am is bad. But I lost my virginity to this very sweet person. And she was very kind and very quiet. And it was just like this, we didn't talk much.

And then afterwards, I cried for about 45 minutes. So that's not really cool as a guy to start crying immediately after you lose your virginity. And again, I don't know what it is. To 100% honesty, I don't know what this feeling is. Why am I feeling this way? But not having the...

the ability to even ask that question. It's just like, whatever I got to do to get to the next 10 minutes, you know? But I knew, I was like, this isn't right. Like, this doesn't, this is, something is wrong. And so the drugs got more, you know, you get more and more into it to kill that, that feeling. I have to be very honest. There are pockets of my life that I have no

I have no recollection of. And so, you know, I'd leave school and I would go work at this shitty grocery store and I would steal all the little mini wine bottles. And so I was just drunk as shit all the time.

I mean, I think I held it together and then I realized like, oh, red wine stains your teeth, get white wine, you fucking idiot. So, you know, I figured out these little tools and all that kind of stuff. But then I also was working with people in their 40s and their 50s. You know what I mean? Like, I'm working with burnouts and they're, you know, it's just like, oh, so you just smoke weed or do drugs all the time and come to work? I want to do that, you know? And so...

I fell into the culinary industry because a person I knew had drugs and he worked at a restaurant and that was all I wanted to do. So I became very good at doing drugs. I had to have two jobs to support my habit for the most of the time. So I would pick up anything I could if there was an opportunity to do private dinners. So the pathway was like, all right,

You're cooking because you can get drugs. Oh, you're actually pretty good at this. So you can still do drugs, but you can still do this really well. I succeeded. You know, I thrived because I put everything I had into the job.

into the, because that's all I had. I hadn't, I didn't have anything else. You know, my, my relationship with my parents was very surface. Um, my relationship with my sisters was, you know, during that time, non-existent. I didn't pick up the phone, you know, because leave me alone. I'm doing drugs. You know what I mean? I worked in environments where your job was to get ahead of the next person. And you did that in whatever way you had to just picture, you

Sweet young baby Greg, really mean. I mean, just like...

just mean like i was just a mean person because that's the environment that i was in you know i was bitter in the morning i'd have my showers and i would you know be like well if they say this i'm gonna say that and if he comes at me with this i'm gonna tell him that and if this guy tries to do this i'm gonna tell him to go fuck him you know i mean like it was i planned every single interaction and it was also you know a lot of the ego shit this is prime ego chef bullshit

And that was my world. Like, everybody I interacted with was shitty to some extent. Like, if you were trying to get ahead of them, it was not good. And Greg was trying to get ahead of everybody. He had found something that he was actually good at, and the way the industry functioned when he was starting out was the perfect place for a heavily addicted, emotionally stunted person to thrive.

You know, I was a very goal-oriented person. And I had wrote down, you know, to be a chef de cuisine by the time I was 28, right? Like, be a executive chef by the time I'm 32. I'm going to grind my ass off. I'm drinking all the Kool-Aid. Let's go, you know? And I did really well. Life is a series of actions and decisions. When am I going to wake up tomorrow?

What will I have for breakfast? What am I going to do with my life? What job do I take next? There's just no way to know which of these choices is going to be the one that changes everything. When Greg takes a chef job at a farm-to-table restaurant in North Carolina, he has no way of knowing that he's about to meet the woman who will become his girlfriend, his closest friend, and

and eventually his ex-wife.

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It's funny because I remember the moment that I met her and just saying hi to her and all that kind of stuff. And I remember, I think it was like the next day she always, Anna's got incredible fashion. Like she's so fucking cool.

But she was wearing this like long dress and like flowy, like over, like she looked like a Jedi, like a character out of Star Wars. Right. Like, but like kind of like wood nymph vibe. I don't know how to describe it, but she looked incredible. And she walked up like with this.

power in this just like i know who the fuck i am like and that's what extracted me to tour was like this ability of like meeting a human being that on the surface like presenting in a way that says i'm smart i know what the fuck's up like so anna saw me as this confident person you know

And what it was was I was overcompensating all the time. She was a person that she was somebody like, I had never heard anybody talk the way that she talked, how she explained things. It was, I'd never heard anybody speak like this. She's so, so smart. She was just such a, she's a badass. Like she is a fucking badass. Like,

She's just so smart, so cool, so quick. Like, all of those things. She was funny as hell. Like, all of those things is why I was attracted to her. Like Anna told us, their relationship moves really quickly. And while Anna was falling in love with Greg, Greg was falling in love with their relationship and how Anna made him feel. I hate that everything goes back to drugs, but, like, with her, I was able to...

slow down like for the first time in my life i was able to be like okay you need to fucking pump the brakes a little bit and so i was able to like kind of cut back and and you know just strict drinking and of course that oh i'll just drink it's fine um we all know how that usually goes so yeah like she helped distract me out of that mindset and helped me start examining more

deeper questions about society, about who I am, about what I want to do, how I want to spend my time, what's important to me. Because I had never asked any of those questions at all. Because it felt like she was activating something inside of me that she was going to make me better. She is bringing something out and this feels like something. And it is something. Yeah.

Even if Greg is years away from truly understanding and accepting that he's gay, there is something. And that something is love. A few months into their relationship, Greg was offered an executive chef job in Charleston. He knew he would take it. This is one of those goals that he had written down, one that he was pursuing relentlessly. He didn't know what it would mean for their relationship, but Anna decided to come along.

And the transition from North Carolina to South Carolina was tough for Anna. She is in a new city, she has no job, and they're living in an apartment she hated.

And also, I'm still using. She doesn't know. I'm still using. And I felt so fucking bad for her when we got there. It was bad. It was really dark. She was really just kind of despondent. That was rough. And so I was immediately like,

Well, she should probably leave. Like she should probably leave me because I made her do this. You know what I mean? Like, why would I stay around for this? You know, like, but she stayed and I was very committed to like, it's so fucking stupid, but I was just like, I want to get, you know, on the James Beard list or I want to get, I want to move up in this industry. I want, you know, like I want the accolades. I want that, you know, cause I, I had spent a large portion of my career working for accolades for other people. Um,

And so it was just grilled into me. So I was pretty focused in that regard. Like, I'm going to start making moves or start to try to do some big things because I want to. I was a terrible partner during that time because I didn't have the tools to understand what she was going through. Eventually, Anna found a job. They moved into a better house, and the two of them felt happier with their lives in Charleston.

Which, of course, it makes sense that that led into her proposing to me at that house very quickly, you know? And it made sense. It 100% made sense. And, like, I had also formulated this master plan to ask Anna to marry me because I was like, this is what has to happen next, right? Yeah.

I didn't act on any of it, but I was like, I'm going to call her dad. I'm going to ask for permission. And then I'm going to, you know, we're going to go back to North Carolina for a vacation or like for a time off. And then, you know, I'll do it there. And so like that was my, like I had like a vague plan. We had a massive event that night. It was one of those situations, like the dishwasher walked out. So obviously I'm washing dishes till like midnight or whatever it was. It was also my birthday.

Anna told me, she's like, yeah, I got a cake and we'll do birthday when you get home. And I was just like, I don't want to fucking do that. I'm covered in sweat. Just want to end the day. And I walk in and the first thing that I'm met with is the heat because she lit hundreds of candles and it was like a sauna in there. And it's also Charleston. So it's just like gross swap town anyways.

So that was my first reaction was just like, why is it so fucking hot in here? And then looking around, seeing all the candles is like, oh, man, this is going to happen. Like I knew I knew what was coming. And so for her to ask me wasn't like out of the blue thing, you know, is something that we had kind of gently talked about. You know, it was sooner than I had expected for her to ask me.

But the gravitational pull that Anna has is unlike anything else I've ever experienced. And I am always interested in what she's doing. And I've done a horrible job expressing that interest. But God, she's mesmerizing. She truly is. She's so magnetic. And she's so safe. She's so comfortable. She's so...

loving she's so kind like all of those things like that was before hey you've been dealing with this thing that you should probably deal with but you haven't dealt with in your entire life but Anna feels safe and she's she feels like a person that you can connect with so yes this makes sense let's go so that's you know that's what it was

Just suppressing those feelings of wanting to scream and just be like, something's wrong. Something's not right. And not being able to do it. Something's not right. But to Greg, it's not Anna that feels wrong. He feels wrong. And he's felt this most of his life.

So Anna asks Greg to marry her in that hot, sweaty living room, surrounded by hundreds of candles while he's covered in dishwasher residue and sweat, and he says, yeah, of course. And if the promise of marriage is forever, well, to Greg, forever just doesn't seem like very long. And you're asking, did I have any inkling of this not working out? I didn't think I was going to make it this long.

I've been on the verge of suicide for 30 years. Like, I think about it every day. I genuinely do. I did not plan to be alive. My plan was to not be alive. It's hard to communicate to somebody and tell them what that does to you and what that does to the way that you view the world. At least two decades. Every day, at one point. It's like, yeah, you should probably go ahead and kill yourself.

For 20 years, every day. That's how I felt. So the sexuality thing came after that. The truth about Greg's sexuality won't emerge for six years after this proposal. That's because before he could really understand himself, Greg would have to clear the fog of drugs and booze that have masked his feelings since he was a teenager.

Painkillers were always his drug of choice. And throughout most of his marriage with Anna, Greg was constantly using and hiding it from her. Eventually, he wanted to get off the pills and his legitimate prescription was running out and he was tired of all the mental math of trying to manage his intake without ruining his job performance. So, you know, the tapering off thing, like, yeah, that was hard. However, I was drunk a lot. And so...

I just, I couldn't do it anymore. Like I couldn't handle it. I called my sister and she helped me. You know, she talked to me. She got it. She knows, she knows what's up and her compassion and her ability to take what I'm saying and say it back to me without me feeling worse, you know, was very important. And I think the lying, like the lying, the constant lying, the constant like,

You know, forgetting which lie, who I told who, you know, like which lie protects me here, which lie, what do they know about? Do they know it? Like if this person meets this person, are they going to know what I'm doing? You know, I just got tired of lying. I got tired of, I got tired of walking across the bridge every night and thinking like, this is it, you know, every fucking night. So yeah, when I got sober and then we would still have sex, I was, I

unbelievably anxious like a level anxiety that I have you know I've been in some extremely anxiety inducing situations as we all have but like I had nothing like that nothing like that where you're supposed to be like in this connection that is the most beautiful thing in the world and all that it is making me do is get in my head and be like what is wrong with me what is wrong what is wrong what is wrong this doesn't feel right something's wrong and like every time

And in my mind, I'm just like, well, something's going to change, right? I apparently, I don't know how to do this. But it was also like, you know, sexually, it was like, whatever I got to do to get this over with now.

That's what sex felt like to me. It wasn't, this isn't something for me to enjoy. This is something for me to get over with because I don't want to, like, I'm not good at this. I think at this point I was kind of like, it's kind of feeling like, I think I'm probably bi, but not, not verbalizing that. Just being like, I think I'm like, this is something that I think is probably going on. And it's like, you know, it's not to say like every sexual encounter that we had was awkward and weird and terrible. Like, but the majority of them were.

You know, or at least like for me, that's how I felt, you know, like I felt more disconnected. Like Anna wanted to feel close to me and, you know, by having sex, like she just wanted to feel closer to me. And I felt further and further every time we had sex.

Greg went through this period of sobriety without any professional or community support outside of calling his sister. So at first, removing drugs and alcohol only made him more aware of the anxiety and the discomfort he felt in life. And so it was like, yeah, I'm struggling with sobriety. But again, never really addressing the real reason. It's why am I feeling this way? And then...

I started going to a thing called Ben's Friends, which is a recovery group for the hospitality industry. So I started doing that two days a week, like going to the virtual meetings and feeling a little bit better and being like, okay, I don't need this. I don't need this. I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. But it kept happening. I couldn't stand the feeling of like,

You know, I mean, it's like when you see a wild animal backed into a corner, it's going to do some crazy shit. And like, it's hard to tell, like, it's hard to say that, but it's like every day I was backed into a corner because I'm backed into somebody that I'm not. And I'm pretending all of these things. I'm pretending that this is who I am. And I, you know, and I, you know, talked to my therapist about it. And I just was like, you know, and we just started casually talking about like,

It wasn't like he didn't ask me, he's like, Greg, are you gay? Like we were able to come to that conclusion on my own. Like I was able to say that and verbalize it. And then that was, you know, the devastation of realizing what this meant. At 34, Greg has finally admitted to himself and somebody else the truth. He's gay. He's always been gay. And he suppressed this part of himself constantly.

for decades. Oh, I was terrified. I was fucking terrified. What were you afraid of? I was going to hurt Anna. My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big ROAS man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend.

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I'm gluten-free, which is not always the easiest when you also have picky eaters in the house. But we got our Sun Basket delivery. We unboxed it. We went over the meals and it was such a relief to know that we had meals that were pre-planned for us. And guess what?

Following directions, putting things together. That was fun for our kids too, our picky eater kids. And they even ate this stuff. I'm telling you, it was a lifesaver. We are at the end of summer here in our city. We are out of ideas for dinner. We are out of ideas for lunch. We are out of ideas, period. This was zero prep, zero mess. And voila, we had a beautiful, fast, gorgeous, healthy dinner.

Go to sunbasket.com forward slash terrible today to save $120 across your first four deliveries. That's sunbasket.com forward slash terrible, and you'll save $120 across your first four deliveries, plus free shipping on your first order. You're going to love it. Go give it a try. Greg has finally admitted to himself and his therapist that he is gay. When Anna talks about that night, she remembers details.

That she was standing in the kitchen when he told her that they'd seen a movie earlier that night. She remembers telling him, Everything, all of you, always, which was one of the parts of our wedding vows. I don't remember what was said. I don't remember what we did after, what we did before. I don't remember. I just remember sitting on the couch and crying and telling her, I think I'm gay. And her hearing me understanding or just like,

Being loving and being kind. All I felt was love and compassion from Anna. The only thing I never, ever wanted to do was hurt her. And I did it real bad. And it was, yeah. So that I was mourning Anna. I was mourning what I was doing to her.

I felt like a manipulator. I felt like a horrible human. I felt like all the drug stock, like stuff coming back up, just like you deserve all the worst shit because you're a piece of shit. Look what you did to this person that you say that you love you fucking piece of shit. Like nothing but negative speak, uh,

But I was used to that, right? Like my, my safe zone was kill yourself, kill yourself, kill yourself, you know? So to just, this was just more fuel. It was just like, well, this is probably the reason, like, this is why you're going to do it. It's because of what you did to her. And so it wasn't about her, which I know is fucked up. It was about me and it was about what I did.

There was like that period before January that was like, maybe we can make this work. Like maybe this, maybe, maybe our relationship can be something else. And then kind of slowly realizing like, I don't think that that can happen. You know, we were still sleeping in the same bed and she would be crying herself to sleep every night and not, not like a soft,

quiet cry like fucking wailing and I can't do anything about it and I like if I touch her like touch her back like that's gonna make it worse and so I just I stayed in it because I you know I was like you deserve this like you did this to her this is your fault like you fucked up like and this is so it's not like again I can't imagine what she's going through the same way she can't imagine what I'm going through I did the one thing I said I would never do is I would never hurt her

And that's what I did. I just did it in the most intense way you possibly could. And so then I kind of just was like, I want to do whatever I can to work through this and to do this correctly and to be a present human being and to do right by Anna at least once in our fucking relationship. Because I felt like I hadn't done right by her at all.

It wasn't like a calculated move every step of the way. She said to me at one point that, you know, she had spoke to her people at work and one of them had said, like, that's a form of abuse. And then, you know, she told me that. And it was just like, so I've abused my best friend for the past seven years.

"Man, I really am a bad person. Like, I really should kill myself. Like, this is... Like, I've done the one thing I told myself I wouldn't do. I've done the one thing that is the absolute antithesis of what you're supposed to do in a relationship. And I abused this human. I manipulated this human." How do you explain to people that, like, "Yeah, I am gay. I have always been gay, but I couldn't allow that because I was so fucking afraid"?

Many, many things can be true at the same time. Greg loves Anna, but not the way that Anna loves Greg. Greg hurt Anna, and that pain is real, and so is Greg's.

The situation is not that Greg searched high and low for a woman he could hide behind and use. He devilishly twirled his mustache while thinking of all the ways he could torture her into loving him while giving her nothing back, then pulled the rug out from under her while laughing at her and the fact that she thought the rug was wall-to-wall carpet that had been nailed to the subflooring. No, that's not it. Everywhere you look in this story, there is so much pain and there is so much love.

When Greg and Anna got married, they were both lying to each other and themselves about what they wanted from a relationship. The only way for them to find clarity and peace was by ending their marriage. And what we've heard from so many people as we worked on these stories of divorce is that divorce can hurt and be the right choice, the loving choice, and sometimes the only choice. Stripping away the addiction, the lies, the

All these massive, destructive burdens that Greg has been carrying nearly his entire life, he's finally able to be the partner Anna needs and deserves. I made just like this arbitrary goal of like, I'm going to do whatever it takes to do this right by Anna. Like, because she deserves that. You know, she didn't deserve what I did and what I put us through. Because she's a good human and she is...

one of the most inspiring people I've ever met, if not like the most inspiring person I've ever met. And so I went into this mindset of, I just shut down some things mentally. And I was just like, whatever we need to do for this to feel right, that's what we're doing. And that's therapy, having her come to one of my therapy sessions, getting in contact with a decoupling counselor.

moving out, you know, all of these steps were just like how I processed and how, you know, being open and not lying and being present and being like being present, being present, be present, be present. That's how I moved through it. She, she deserves all the happiness and love in the world. Like she's fuck, she's the coolest. And I just, I wanted to be able to provide that because I haven't, I just haven't been that person.

And if this is so, you know, when you ask, like, you know, did you did you think I wasn't going to see her again? Like that, that feeling was very brief because it became it became very clear pretty quickly that, like, we're going to work on this together and we're going to make it through. In the 10 months since Greg came out and the two of them started the process of ending their marriage, Greg has slowly created a new chapter of life.

He's sober and in therapy. He moved into his own apartment. He got a cat. He's a chef at the same restaurant where he and Anna met. And this time, his leadership style in the kitchen is less mean and more empathetic. And he's finally started exploring his sexuality and what it means for him to be gay. He's not ready to date right now, but he's coming out to people and living as an openly gay man.

I've been so damaged by my drug abuse and all that kind of stuff of like having a real relationship with somebody with a capital R. Like I'm not really equipped for that. Um, and I'm okay with that. Like I'm fine with that. Like, yeah, it's fun to have like crushes with some, you know, some guys that don't know that I'm gay or whatever, and just kind of be like, have that to myself. But like, you know, getting on the apps, any of that kind of shit, um,

No, like I'm, that's, that's not for me. Like I'm not, I'm not even there. Like, um, it's not important to me right now. I went up to New York during pride. Um, not, not because of pride, but I just went up to go see a friend and like being in New York during pride just was an event in itself. Cause it's just like, Oh yeah, nobody fucking cares about anything. It's the best. Um,

Every time I spend more time in the queer community and the gay community of just like, God damn it. Why wasn't I here sooner? Why weren't you there sooner? Because that's just not how life works. I've yet to meet a person who self-actualized without first getting lost, making huge mistakes, carrying huge regrets. Life moves at the speed of life and not a second faster.

We can't flip to the back of the choose-your-own-adventure to see what will get us to the ending where we're safe and happy-ish and really living our lives. Most of life is bumbling through.

We are bulls in a china shop of emotions, and sometimes that china is other people, and sometimes it's ourselves, and the sentence no longer makes any sense. But we do have to live with the fact that we will, as people, hurt ourselves, hurt each other, and find a way to live with it. Greg is not yet ready to date. We love the self-awareness, but Anna recently started dating someone.

Anna getting into this relationship with this person, like sent me through a loop immediately, you know, like I was okay with it. And then I was fucking not, you know, like,

I just felt replaced. I was like, I'm, I'm replaced out of the family, out of the life, out of the, you know, so like it, and it, you know, it's no fault of her own. Like she asked me every step of the way if this was okay. And so it's just like, okay, my favorite human being in the world is happy is finding things out about herself and is exploring things about herself that she wasn't able to do with me. And she's growing as a human, like, oh my God, that's so fucking beautiful.

Like that's, you know, that's where I've landed with all of it. It's just like, I just want her to be happy at every, every moment. Like, you know, that stupid bullshit line that they use in movies. Like, I don't want you to feel an ounce of sadness. It's like, I don't want Anna to ever be sad because she's such an incredible person. Um, and I'm thankful that I'm in this place now where like I said, it's just like, I welcome the weird, I welcome the uncomfortable, um,

I welcome the stress because I grow from it and I'm such, such a different person than I was in December of last year. The lessons that you learn in sobriety by way of like one day at a time, like all that kind of stuff, like,

You know, it's just added tools to my, my ability to process and my ability to handle and keep in mind, like I haven't been able to do that for the majority of my life. I haven't allowed myself to get that opportunity. So, you know, when Anna is just like, why are you like, why can't you see it like this? Or why aren't you, you know, it's just like, I've never done that. So this is all new to me, learning, learning a lot.

One of the things that Greg is learning is how to love himself better. For years, he was so plagued by shame that all he saw in himself were the negative things. But taking away secrets and taking away drugs and alcohol has allowed him to see what his good traits are. I love that I can identify what people need, you know, and I'm incredibly good at that.

And that's why I'm in hospitality. Like the whole thing of hospitality to me is like, I'm going to, you know, identify something that you need before you even thought existed. And now I'm going to show you that this is going to transform this for you. You'll never see a carrot the same way. People in hospitality, their lives are fucked up. Like it's just true because they're poor. Everybody's poor.

And, you know, I've got one dishwasher who's like the fucking man. He's such a good person. He's got five kids. They got kicked out of their house. They're living at an extended stay. And like, am I going to pay his rent one week to help him out?

Yeah. Yeah, I am. Am I going to give them a hundred bucks to go buy groceries? Yeah. Yeah, I am. Because guess what? If I can help a human being who needs it more than I do, that's what I'm going to do. If I see an avenue to become a better person, I'm just going to fucking do it because I'm tired of feeling like a piece of shit all the time. You know, the level of freedom is so intense of being who you are.

Can you fathom? It makes me cry at night. Like, can you have any idea what it's like for 30 fucking years to want to kill yourself because something doesn't feel right? For 30 years every day? Can you imagine that? And Anna gave me that gift of relieving me from that. And so in the discussions of like, what do we do financially and all that, it's like, you already gave me everything I need and I don't want anything else. Like, I don't need anything because...

I've been able to be who I am and been able to accept it and to not be ashamed of who I am. Seven years ago, Anna and Greg stood in front of each other and said, "I will love everything, all of you, always." Like all married people, they had no idea how these vows would apply in their lives. They didn't know all the pain and suffering that would be included in everything.

They didn't know themselves well enough to know the all of you that the other person was agreeing to love. But what felt certain to both of them, and is still certain now, is the always. I didn't get it wrong. Like, I met Greg and I thought, this is a person that I want to know forever. And I still feel that way. Like, maybe we're not going to be spending every day together or every week together, but like...

Every week there's like 10 things that happen where I'm just like, oh, I got a Texas Nana. Like, oh my God, Anna's going to love this. And she will always be my best friend. Their marriage didn't last their entire lives, but it's not a failure. If one definition of a successful marriage is a relationship where two people can finally be themselves and feel safe and help the other person grow, Anna and Greg nailed it.

Ultimately, they showed up for each other, supported each other, and approached their hurt and pain as lovingly as they could. It is all any of us can ask for in any relationship. Everything. All of us. Always. Thank you, Greg, so much for being willing to share all of this with us.

Greg, thank you. Anna, thank you. If you are a person who's struggling with substance abuse or suicidal thoughts or hating yourself in the way that Greg hated himself, I want to hold you in my arms. I want to whisper into your ear how loved you could be, how loved you are, and how your whole self is worthy of love and safety. And I mean that.

We have linked some resources in our show notes. It will not be fully adequate, but there's that line he said, where he said, imagine hating yourself for 30 years. And I always want to like reach into people, especially just reach back into the past and like comfort those versions of ourselves. And I know so many of us have felt that way. And that is such a big way to feel. Oh my God.

Anyways, are there credits where I'm supposed to have a mental breakdown? Quick question. Do you come here to have me break down in the credits? Let me know. This episode was produced suddenly and gorgeously by Claire McInerney. This was an unexpected change in our lineup of episodes.

And what a good job Claire did. It was mixed by Marcel Malikibu, who has nearly too many skills, frankly. He's so good at so many things. The rest of our team here is me, Megan Palmer, and Michelle Planton. We are a production of Feelings & Co. Feelings & Co. is where you can get all kinds of feelings much of the time.

Our supporting producers are Kim Morris, Bethany Nickerson, Rachel Humphrey, Jamie Zimmerman, and David Farr. Supporting producers are listeners who financially support the show at the highest level over on our Patreon. If you want to offer our show financial support, there are a few ways that you can become a TTFA Premium member. You can sign up in the Apple Podcast app,

We have access to our entire back catalog in chronological order. There are ad-free episodes. There are bonus episodes. If you want to be more involved, our Patreon community gets all the same perks plus some other ones. We do monthly office hours. You can connect with other Terribles. We have all of our back catalog, but painstakingly organized by topic.

We have a recent bonus episode with Marcel Malakibu and Megan Palmer where we are discussing and sharing listener divorce experiences. Next week's bonus episode is an interview with a financial advisor who specializes in divorce. You can also check out our other show, The Terrible Reading Club, because this month we discussed two books about divorce. The first is an interview with Harrison Scott Key who wrote about his wife cheating on him and

him deciding to get a divorce, and then him ultimately not getting a divorce and saving the marriage. And another episode with Betsy Crane, who wrote a beautiful memoir about her own divorce. We have all the links that you would ever need.

including how to become a TTF8 premium member, links to Terrible Reading Club, links to Feelings & Co. where you can find all of our shows and our store in our show descriptions. We do love hearing from you. So if you have questions, concerns, comments, or complaints, you don't have to be shy. It is okay to email us. I'm telling you that sometimes we get compliments. Sometimes we get mean emails. That's fine, dude. Like you got to get that out somewhere. Like get it out. That's okay. You can call us.

612-568-4441. You can email us, terrible at feelingsand.co. If you are interested in being on the show, you should go to our website, ttfa.org.

Oh, we are going on tour. We are going on tour with Happy Holidays. Happy Holidays is our holiday show. It is a lot of fun and we're going to go to 10 cities between Thanksgiving and Christmas. So you can find all that on our website too. Okay. Well, I love you guys. Thank you for being here. Stay terrible is a sign off that I'm

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