Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
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We've also got a link in our show notes. My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big ROAS man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend.
My friend's still laughing at me to this day. Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn, you'll be able to reach people who do. Get $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to linkedin.com slash results to claim your credit. That's linkedin.com slash results. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn, the place to be, to be. Hi, I'm Nora McNerney, and this is terrible. Thanks for asking. On November 25th, 2014, I was 31 years old.
sitting on the edge of my bed in my L.L. Bean pajamas, staring at my reflection in the full-length mirror that had been in the house before we'd bought it. This mirror faced our bed in a way that was somewhat uncomfortable because it implied we had hung it there for sex reasons. And I wanted to laugh about that, about how sexy it was that we hung a mirror lengthwise in front of just a portion of our bed.
But there was no one there to receive my joke. I had started the day as a wife. I was ending it as a widow. Did I look different, I wondered. Had the change registered on my face the same way it had registered inside of me? I was still 31 on the outside, the same blue eyes, the same purple hair, the same pajamas, the same retainer, the same house, the same bedspread. And all of this betrayed the fact that I knew with certainty that
that I had aged 150 years today, listening to my husband's lungs take their last breath, feeling his heart stop. Over the past two weeks of hospice care, the past three years of brain cancer, my universe had both contracted and expanded. Our physical world was smaller, a tight loop containing the hospital, our living room, our bedroom. But our psychological world had grown immensely.
Both my husband Aaron and myself had felt tapped into something bigger than his sickness, bigger than his death, bigger than my grief. We knew that this was life, that all around the world people were suffering and dying. People were being born feeling joy. We knew that we were not special, but we were here. We were a part of this, all of it.
So even when our circle constricted to just the guest room where he lay dying, we weren't alone. Because someone was doing the same thing. Someone was dying. Someone was losing their person. It was 1.30 a.m. I stared at my face more. I thought about this. And while I sat there, 2,000 miles away, someone's life was giving way beneath their feet like a trap door. It was Casey Jones.
The person he was losing was his beloved wife, Hope, who he'd known since middle school. We started dating in seventh grade. We were each other's first boyfriend and girlfriend. But then our parents found out, and were like, you guys can't have boyfriend and girlfriends yet. So I think we had one date where we went rock climbing. Yeah.
with two of our other friends. It was pretty romantic. But I just, I always, as cheesy as it sounds, I just, I always wanted to be with Hope and I did truly always want to marry her and I just felt very strongly about that from a young age. Like, I just want to marry her.
But I watched her date a lot of guys. Not a lot, but there's a couple. And both of them were like more serious. I mean, it's in high school. It's funny saying it was serious relationships. High school is so serious. And everyone, like the church we grew up in, like everyone, her brothers, like right out of high school, you get married and you start working the trades and you make your family. So any dating in high school did feel serious because it's like, I'm probably going to marry this person.
Aaron's brain tumor was revealed one year into dating. I never questioned whether or not I would stay with him. I think in part because I knew stage four brain cancer was bad, but it took me a little while to realize how bad because, frankly, I thought there were like 10 stages of cancer. How is four the highest number? How is four, on a scale of seriousness, four is never the most serious of anything. It just seems non-threatening as a number.
And even when I realized how serious it was, how stage four is actually quite threatening, the most threatening, it didn't change my mind. Erin and I belong to each other, for better or worse, till death do us part. Death is almost always an abstraction to us, to all of us, I think, even when we know it's somewhat imminent.
Hope was born with cystic fibrosis, which is a terrible disease. It fills your lungs with crud and they can't cure it and people die from it or from complications of being treated for it. And so from a young age, Hope knew that her life would be a short one. For kids of the 90s, you will appreciate knowing that her AIM screen name was Hope Lillene 23.
It was an emo reference to the fact that during her adolescence, the average lifespan for a kid with CF was 23 years old. So you were engaged when you were 19? Yeah. Wow. Got married when we were 20. Yeah. How long were you married? We were married just shy of 10 years. Even though CF is incurable, it never really felt like the biggest deal to them. Hope was normal.
She was pretty healthy. Sure, she sometimes was in the hospital, but she wasn't living life in an iron lung waiting for death to take her. She was a bright, vibrant creature with tattoos and a great sense of humor. And she had passed age 23 a long time ago. So the future felt like it existed. I always knew she would pass away before me, but I thought it would be much later in life and at a point where I'm like,
Even in my 40s or 50s or something like that, where I was like, well, we'll have so much life to live before then that it doesn't even matter. I'm willing and I want to, like, be her person and support her no matter what and all that. Erin always thought there was time for us, and so did I. Even when I understood how serious stage four brain cancer was, we had a baby, we took a honeymoon, we went to a Beyonce concert, we paid our mortgage, we went to work.
And so did Hope and Casey. They got grown-up jobs, a lovely little apartment in San Francisco, and they pursued Hope's dream of adopting children. Little Mari came to them as an infant, and she made them a family of three. That is all so normal. Hope knew from a young age that her life would be short, and yet her death was shocking. Because it doesn't really matter whether or not you see the train coming. While I was staring into that mirror...
Casey was watching the train make impact. Casey and Hope were at home in their little apartment, folding laundry, talking. And like she had been for years, Hope was fine. I got in bed and was reading. And then she got up and went to the bathroom, I think, to take her makeup off. Came back into the room, and she crawled onto me. And I was just holding her. She's small, so I just thought she was on my chest.
And, um, said I love her. And she was saying she loves me. And that doesn't happen every night. And so it felt like a really special thing where I was like, usually I'll read, she'll be doing treatments, and I'll fall asleep within, like, a page of reading. And that's kind of a normal night. We just cuddled for a little bit. And then she went around to her side of the bed, laid down. I think she had started reading or something. And then she coughed. And, um, I heard something pop. And, um...
She like sat up and she's like, oh, there was blood, so much blood. But they've seen blood before, but not blood like this. And I was like, what? She's like, just started coughing up blood. And I was like, I'll go get a bowl. I ran. I got a bowl and came back and she was just coughing up blood like uncontrollably. And I was like, do I call 911? And she's like, shaking her head. Yes.
Hope was in their bed in the back of the apartment, in a room that had terrible cell service, so the only way that Casey could call for help to get the EMTs to their home was to leave Hope alone in their room to guide the first responders to their door. First responders came. Nearby friends and family arrived. But Hope died on a normal night in their bedroom. Because I can't even think about how scared she was.
I mean, I could see it when I would run back in her eyes and even right when it started to happen, I could see that she knew something was worse than ever before. But I think about like when she passed, she was just looking out this window like she wasn't even looking at me. And that seems like why couldn't I have just been by her side so she could see me or could have said something sweet to her? And I don't know. Now that we have punched you in the feelings, we're going to take a quick break.
And after we come back... So, who's Ashley? Ashley is my fiancé. Uh, what? Ashley is my fiancé. Yeah, fiancé. That's when we come back.
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Casey has a fiancé. His fiancé is named Ashley. And it may be important for you to know that a year and a half passed between Hope and Aaron's death and when Casey and I finally met to record this. Ashley. Yeah, I met Ashley. Actually, we went to the same—we grew up going to the same church, which is the same church Hope and I went to. And I knew her family. Now, if you're listening to this and you're like, you're not alone.
There are generally two responses to hearing a widowed person is in love again. The first is, too soon. And the second is, oh, I'm so glad you've moved on. Now, number two would be convenient, emotionally neat and tidy, but it just isn't reality. The messier reality is that you bring that past, that love, that person with you into this new life.
you can't help it. I commute down to Sunnyvale and on my commute, I'm like halfway through. It's really beautiful the whole time. But then up one of the roads is where the cemetery where she's buried. So I feel like every day I almost think about her. I've never, I've still never been, but I drive near it and I see the mountain that it's up on. And so I think about her every time I pass it sort of. And then when I'm with her nephews and nieces,
They all carry things about them that look like Hope, and especially one of the youngest nieces, she's got these chubby cheeks like Hope had. And whenever I'm with him, I'm like, oh man, you look like her. That's amazing. And your new person has to deal with that. They have to make room for it, for this ghost you'll always love and always see, because those are the rules. I think there's this...
there is this respect for what was, but then also it's difficult for Ashley to process it, rightfully so. Like, how do I... I'm the first person that she's ever loved completely and wanted to ever spend her life with, yet I've already loved someone completely and wanted to spend my life with them. So I think it's a struggle to not feel like the second and not compare. On November 7th, 2015, almost...
a year to Aaron's death anniversary. I woke up so stiff and sore I couldn't even move my head. And glancing through my diary from that day one year earlier, I saw that I had found Aaron alone on the floor in the bathroom after coming home from the gym. He was wedged between the tub and the toilet and he said he was fine.
Everything was fine. It was not fine. I called his doctor secretly from the basement to tell him that things were getting worse. It was a year later, and I woke up, and my body remembered this. It remembered all of the horror to follow, and it was bracing me to lose Aaron again. That night, I went to a friend's bonfire, and a cute man introduced himself and sat in the warped plastic Adirondack chair next to me and promptly said,
flipped over backwards as the plastic buckled. There's a reason those things are so cheap. And all I saw were his feet illuminated by the campfire, flying backwards, followed by a perfect arc of red wine. And I laughed so hard.
I laughed so hard I couldn't breathe. Like, when you haven't laughed in so long and you laugh that hard, you think, like, am I going to die? Will I pass out? Will I ever stop laughing? And I could feel that exoskeleton of grief that I have cracking just a little bit at this man's expense. That was Matthew.
Four days later, we were on our first date and I told him everything and I asked him everything. He was 36 years old, divorced with a 14 and a nine-year-old. And this was fascinating. Like my love had died in my arms. His had just changed her mind. Isn't that fascinating? Like she stopped loving you. Like you said, Vow, she was like, no thanks. Like how did that feel? He was...
less fascinated by that conversation, but he understood where I was coming from. And I knew I would never be with someone who made me minimize Aaron, who made me box Aaron up and leave him behind. And Matthew never has.
Periodically, though, I will feel defensive for Aaron. On behalf of Aaron, on behalf of our marriage, I will feel like loving Matthew is a betrayal. And Matthew is so sweet. He always says the sweetest things to me. Like, I've never felt this way about someone. And in return, I smile and kiss him. Because if I answered, I'd have to say, I have.
And there's no point in saying what he already knows. Hope's funeral was packed. Among the crowds of mourners were Ashley's parents. Ashley still lived in the same hometown that Casey and Hope had grown up in. She was finishing college, and Casey didn't think of her romantically until a very old-fashioned thing happened. He started following her on Instagram. She followed him back. And they just observed each other's lives.
For Casey, that meant his grief was on display. He posted these beautiful photos of his daughter, Mari, of Hope, of the three of them. He wrote haunting captions. And Ashley's photos were the photos of a very beautiful, very sweet 22-year-old with not a care in the world. When Casey and Ashley met up in real life, there were, there were some sparks, just small ones. Small sparks. Small, subtle sparks.
Ashley was seeing someone else, someone closer to her age, someone with a life that was less complicated. But when the switch was flipped, it was on. And Ashley and Casey were in love. They were engaged. They were going to move in together. And Ashley would be Mari's mother. And this brings us back to that first point that people make when they hear about widows falling in love again. Remember that one? The old, too soon? I sure remember it because I've heard it.
and because I've felt it. We had this interview in the room where Hope died, coming up on the two-year death-aversary for Hope and Aaron. And at one point, I thought, "Dude, Casey, shouldn't you pump the brakes?" And I thought this while I was carrying Matthew's baby. By that, I was pregnant. I wasn't, like, carrying a baby with me. I was mega-pregnant with Matthew's baby.
Matthew and I were cohabitating. We were looking for a new house. My son was starting to call Matthew his Maddie Daddy. Because I was thinking it about my situation too. Isn't this too soon? Shouldn't I pump the brakes? Can I be happy again already? My concern wasn't that I wasn't ready. It turns out being happy feels nice.
But my concern was that the world around me wasn't ready, that my friends and family or Instagram followers weren't ready for me to be happy again. Because if I were happy, that would obviously mean that I was no longer sad, that I had moved on, I had reached closure. And of course I hadn't. And of course Casey hadn't. Because Matthew and Ashley aren't cures for losing Aaron and Hope.
For me, I feel like my heart, like I still love hope. And I don't think that love is gone. I think my heart just grew to love more, which you don't think is possible because you're like, how can I love somebody again? And then it starts to happen. But then that love for hope is not gone. It's still there. And obviously if she was here, she'd be the one receiving all of it. But my heart is expanding to grow and to love more.
I think people, the ones that have a hard time with it just don't want to talk about it and just slowly stop being involved in your life. One year after that conversation, Casey and I are both remarried. Ashley is now Casey's second wife. Matthew is now my second husband. I love Matthew. My love for him exists alongside my love for Aaron. It isn't a contest. It isn't measurable.
I can love Matthew and this life and love my life with Aaron in part because of Instagram. Because it made it possible for me to see Casey open his life and his heart to Ashley, to love her completely and openly, even while he loves Hope. That discomfort I felt, that was me wanting to love more like Casey and be less of an emotional miser.
Sometimes I do feel like Matthew got the short end of the stick because he doesn't get the Nora that Erin got. And I tell him this, I tell him that other Nora was awesome. She could manage a chemo schedule, make organic baby food, work out five times a week, and work a full-time job. This Nora's fine, I guess.
I don't make any food except cereal. I don't do laundry. I don't clean. I'm always 15 minutes late. Hans is looking at me. I'm 30 minutes late. And Matthew, for some reason, likes the Nora he got. So here's what I will say about this Nora. She has loved someone like this. She knows what till death do us part means. She's done it before, and she's still willing to do it again.
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Between Aaron dying and meeting Matthew, I did a lot of questionable things, but I'm going to focus on the good things I did. One of the good things I did was read a lot about relationships, and I listened to a lot of stuff, and one of the things that I listened to often was anything that Esther Perel was on. I listened to her TED Talks about relationships. I listened to her on Dear Sugar, and I read her book, Mating in Captivity, and I thought, next time I fall in love...
I'm going to be so good at being in a relationship. As I've just told you, maybe not the truth about myself, but the effort is there. The desire is there. The makings of a relationship champion are there. But everyone needs a coach. So I constructed a very elaborate ploy to meet Esther Perel. We went to the Now Hear This podcast festival in New York City.
And we played this for her. She was sitting in the audience while we talked about this, about Casey and myself. And then she came on the stage and I got what I was dreaming of, which was basically a private therapy session in front of 200 people. So we wanted to share Esther's insights with you. So when you hear something like the story that I just read, what do you think?
Well, the place I immediately went, first of all, you're an incredible storyteller. And incredible storyteller. Thank you.
And the amount of time that I just surged inside of me, all kinds of feelings. You know, what would I do? Where would I be? Would I be that kind of generous person? Would I, you know, what does it mean to be number two? I thought about that. How would I deal with number two if that was in my office? And I loved his answer, but his answer will not convince her.
It convinces him, but it may not convince her. Then I looked at his little girl. You know, what does she call the new woman? And then I thought this thing about too soon...
Or, you know, nice, now I don't have to worry about you anymore. That is an amazing story that is part of the archetypal stories of every culture. How you deal in the aftermath of loss. What longings are you permitted? How soon are you allowed to reclaim life?
Do you have to remain, you know, is there a manual that says you should be sad and miserable and lonely and bereft for X amount of time, at which point you gradually become ready again to connect, first of all, not to connect, to open your eyes, to notice the girl that was in your church with you all these years, who probably was looking at you for many years while you didn't notice it. And
It's like, does it have to be that prescriptive? And who actually knows? And it's incredible how much judgment and how much other people think they have the answer for stuff which we don't. There is not one answer. I think it's beautiful that all of you, all four, but certainly you and Casey, just reclaimed life.
And that you came from good experiences, which then allowed you to love again, which is not going to be necessarily so simple for Matthew's ex-wife. No comment. You understand? Because she has to deal with the disillusionment.
The I don't love you anymore is a disillusionment. And that disillusionment brings you to question yourself. It brings some elements of doubt or certainty that you knew that you no longer loved. But it is much more, you have nothing. You can't have a conversation with death. Death takes a little bit of the responsibility of you. It did it for you. You didn't have to make the decision alone. That's true. And I actually have a lot of widow friends who...
That's a cool new thing about me. Yes, you have. Well, I'm going to say it because I think the title is fantastic. She has a club called Hot Widow Club. Hot Young Widows Club. Hot Youngs Widow Club. Dot com. We have shirts. Which is a total contradiction in terms. It's fantastic. Fantastic.
You can be hot, young, and widow. I know people always email, and they're like, can I be in it? They, like, attach a photo. I'm like, it's not. It's just a name. Like, my mom is in it, because she won't let me have anything of my own. I'm like, Mom, we, like, complain about our families. Okay. I'll, like, forget she's in there. I'm like, ugh. Um...
But I don't know where we learn that assumption that there's a timeline to things. And I'm really interested in how we try to unlearn that. So I think the timeline of today may not be the same timeline as throughout history. I think the timeline of today sits
on a story. The story is that you meet and you marry the one and only. That is our model, our romantic model of the pursuit of the soulmate. And the one and only means that that person is irreplaceable. That's what it stands for. And that you, of course, are irreplaceable for them. If you fall in love again, then it means that
It insinuates that maybe the one and only wasn't that after all because they are replaceable. That maybe you didn't love them as much as the romantic mandate imposes upon you. And that's the piece that's hidden underneath this. I think that in cultures that are not so romantic, this is a very different story. You actually are expected, most religions actually,
The monotheistic religions have a system in place that if you lose your spouse, the sibling has to come and marry you very quickly. And that was in place. Somebody thought about that. How do you keep the family going? Who would know you better? Who could be the person to whom you can ask this kind of allegiance? And so the brother of the husband would have to marry the widow. Anecdotally, just from the High Young Widows Club, that is super common.
Like, now. Aaron didn't have any brothers or, like, friends who were single or straight. So... But either people marry their husband's best friend or their husband's brother. Super common. And...
Can I tell an anecdote? Oh, yeah, go for it. So it's so funny because I went to the Hampton last week and I stand in a shack where I'm ordering something to eat. And there's this man standing there and we start talking and what do you do? And I write and what do you write about? And I say I write about infidelity and that makes for a conversation right away.
So I say, and you, what do you do? And he says, I'm a chief of a fireman's station. And then we talk about 9-11, and I was living downtown, and my kids were out of school. And then he says, well, you know, one of the things you should know is the amount of affairs between the friends of the dead fireman and the widowed wife.
And I just thought it makes sense, you know. But same thing as, I mean, it's a variant on the brother marries the widow. Yeah, there's something like wired into us for that. That's Esther Perel. Thank you. That was so good. I'm Nora McInerney, and this has been Terrible. Thanks for asking. Hans Butow is our senior producer. His wife is Amy. Thank you for letting us take all of Hans' time for the past almost a year.
Wow. Our interns are Jacob Maldonado-Medina, Emily Allen, and Marcus Arsvold. Hannah Mikak-Ross is our project manager. She makes all the things happen.
Thank you to Casey and Ashley and Hope and Aaron and Matthew. I love all of us. Thank you also to Esther Perel for validating me and Casey and the fact that love is magic. She joined us on stage at the Now Hear This Festival in the Javits Center in New York in September. And then I got a haircut like hers because I'm a psychopath.
Thank you.
If you live in Nashville or thereabouts, I'm going to be there on November 7th at Parnassus Books. Come out and meet me and get a high five and let's talk about terrible things for asking. And my book, It's Okay to Laugh, Crying is Cool Too. TTFA is a production of American Public Media, 8 p.m.
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