Help, I Said the Wrong Thing!
52:22 Share

Hi guys, it's Nora. If you like what we've done here on Terrible Thanks for Asking, you might want to check out our YouTube channel. We have two new videos going up every week over at youtube.com slash at feelings and co that's feelings and co there's a link to it in our show description. So see over on YouTube, if that's what you're into, what a sales gal I am.

How are you? Most of us say fine or good, but obviously it's not always fine and sometimes it's not even that good.

This is a podcast that gives people the space to be honest about how they really feel. It's a place to talk about life, the good, the bad, the awkward, the complicated. I'm Nora McInerney, and this is Thanks for Asking. Hi, everyone. I'm Nora McInerney, and this is Thanks for Asking, a call-in show about what matters to you.

I learned when I was going through grief, really intense grief, that people say the wrong things. Not because they're trying to hurt our feelings or because they don't care, but because people are people and people are by nature clumsy. We trip over things physically and metaphorically, and it feels like nothing trips us up.

quite like a coffee table that has been there in the same position forever. And yet I keep walking right into directly with my shins and right alongside that coffee table that does not move someone else's tragedy. Those two things are guaranteed to trip us up.

I have forgotten a lot of the dumb or careless things that people have said to me, but I have not necessarily forgotten how it felt to hear those things. Like I was suddenly on my heels after just getting a stiff arm to the chest. I haven't been punched in the face, but I

I imagine that's what it feels like to be punched in the face, just reeling back, wondering what you're supposed to do now. Like, do you nod? Do you smile? Do you take a swing right back? Sometimes it would take a long time for the words to sink in. And by the time they did, I would be washing dishes or laying in bed thinking, what did they mean by that? What was that about?

Sometimes I would write out a pages-long email. I would write out entire blocks of text on my phone. And sometimes, regrettably, I would send it. But sometimes I would just save it to my drafts and I would let it go. If you live long enough to care about people, if you live long enough for the people that you care about to get hit by

by the worst things in life, you will also live long enough to know that someday you will say the wrong thing. I can guarantee you that someday your words will be the clumsy ones. Your words will be the hurtful ones. Your words will be the arrows that you didn't even know you were slinging. And this, for many people, including myself, this is a nightmare. This is a nightmare scenario.

Because how can we, thoughtful, sensitive people that we are, cause someone pain when that person is someone that we love, someone we care about? But we do. We have. I have. I have, through my own grievous errors, failed in my words and in my deeds. And so has today's caller or caller and texter. They called and they texted. So as we get into this, please take a deep breath and

and know that some names and details have been changed to protect all parties. We're going to start with the voicemail. It came in two parts. So here's the first voicemail that we got.

Hi. So I have ADHD, and one of the parts of my ADHD is Rejection Sensitivity Disorder, or RSD. And I perceive any rejection or any negative feedback, it can be work, personal life, whatever, as rejection.

Basically, the worst case scenario, and I go to the worst case scenario thinking that if I get any kind of negative feedback or feedback in general, honestly, I take it as I'm the worst person in the world. And I just get into a deep shame spiral where I melt down and literally cry over spilt milk sometimes. Yeah.

Pausing this to just say, me too, me too. I really can't handle someone being disappointed with me or making a simple mistake. I'm in therapy. This is probably like the work of therapy for me is just like being okay with not being perfect.

And so recently, one of my dear friends had a loss of an infant and I've dealt with my own grief and I know that like not reaching out can be worse than reaching out and saying something wrong. It's better to like fuck up and not know what the right thing is to say than to not say anything at all. I really do believe that.

And I was recently talking to someone who had a similar situation, a similar infant loss, and asked for their advice on, like, what to say.

And so basically I said that to my friend and the advice was, you know, make sure that your friend knows that it wasn't their fault, that everyone knows that they didn't intend for their baby in that way. And so, you know, I texted this to my friend thinking that like it was an encouraging word.

And my friend responded with, I know you were trying to come from a good place, but that was a really weird thing to say. Like, of course, we didn't intend to, you know, harm our child and

Like, out of curiosity, like, what made you think that? And so instead of, like, just taking that feedback and trying to, you know, explain myself, I basically didn't get any sleep last night because I'm thinking that this friend thinks I'm the worst person ever, that they think I'm, you know, blaming them or shaming them or trying to guilt them into something. And spent a lot of time crying over it.

And it's just, I guess, an example that happened last night with my rejection sensitivity disorder that I'm really trying to work through because my friend who has lost a child, it's probably one of the deepest sorrows anyone could ever imagine, the pain of losing a child.

So it was the voicemail. That was the voicemail. That is what this listener is going through, experiencing rejection, sensitivity disorder, dysphoria. I can't remember what it's called. I always thought it was dysphoria. And having said the wrong thing to her friend. So we also got a follow-up text, which is screenshots of the texts that were sent and

It's what our caller reached out to. This is the text that they sent their friend. Hi, friend. I wanted to just say hi and that I hope you know that everyone knows you and your partner would never intentionally do anything to put your baby at risk. And when it comes down to it, the only difference between babies that are fine and babies like yours who are not is that other families happen to get lucky and it's incredibly unfair. I love you so much. Friend replies.

Hey, I love you too. And I know this is coming from a good place, but it's kind of a weird thing to say. I guess I hadn't been worried about that because we'd never do anything to intentionally hurt our children. And I never thought that was in question out of curiosity. What prompted you to say this? This is where the rejection sensitivity dysphoria that our texter is struggling with kicks in.

The friend replies...

Did her child pass the way that ours did? It's okay. I know you were coming from a good place. I wanted to be honest about how it felt though. It's so hard to find something to say because there really isn't a thing to say. Losing a child is just one of the worst things that could ever happen. And I think it's something none of us can really wrap our heads around. I certainly can't. I appreciate you being thoughtful and trying. A lot of people just blurt things out. I think it's because they're uncomfortable and it's understandable.

Honestly, just being told that I'm being thought of makes me feel good. Being told our baby is being thought of makes me feel really good. And then unrelated for the rest of it. Some time passes and the friend sends another text. I need to be honest. As my feelings are settling in, I'm realizing what you said was extremely off-putting and

And made me feel, for lack of a better word that I can think of, icky. I love you, but I need to not have contact with you for right now. I don't know if and when I will reach out again, but I will when that time comes. There's been a shocking amount of navigating other people's words and feelings around this loss, and I just don't have the capacity for it.

I don't doubt that you are coming from a good place, but something to keep in mind is that different things are helpful for different people. And sometimes it's best to just not say anything or just let someone know that you're thinking about them. I want you to know that I love you and care about you. Take care.

So if you are struggling already with rejection, sensitivity, with being very, very self-conscious that you might be saying something wrong, that people's feedback is going to crush you, that would probably be a very, very hard series of texts to receive. And I've actually spent a few days sitting with this situation, thinking about it,

writing about it, getting ready to record this because in many ways, this is truly an actual nightmare for me. So I want to first say that I think anybody, whether or not they have ADHD or rejection sensitivity, anyone would feel horrible knowing that the thing they said to a grieving parent, a grieving person, somebody that they care about landed in

this wrong. I think that feeling sick over this, crying over this, feeling bad about this is actually very, very human and very, very relatable. And I think that today's caller, today's texter is also a person who just saw another person in pain and thought, I want them to know that I care and thought, I want to get this right. So I'm

You, our caller, you flipped through your own experiences. You remembered what hurt you and you thought, I'm going to do better than that. And then you consulted somebody else who had been in a similar situation and asked what to say. And you got it wrong because as your friend pointed out, there is no perfect thing to say. You can't think of the perfect thing to say for the unthinkable. You just cannot. And most of the time in life, we actually don't know when we have missed the mark or

We do what you do and what so many of us do. We replay it back. Maybe we get a weird look or total silence, and then we just go into assuming what it means. Maybe we just keep it moving and have no idea what we just stepped in. So the bad news is that the words that you picked did not do what you wanted them to do, and in fact, did exactly what you did not want them to do. And the good news is that...

it's actually not about you. And you know that, right? Like in the voicemail, you said like, this is my friend is going through this big, big thing. Like, but this thing that I did is also hurting me. And that is okay. Those are two very, very different experiences. You are allowed to feel hurt by the feeling of disappointing somebody, the feeling of like stepping in it, honestly, the feeling of getting it wrong. It is okay that that hurt you. And I

Even though your friend asked for space from you, even though your friend said, honestly, that made me feel very, very weird, even that reaction, it's not really about you because your friend pointed out something in her response. And even though that response hurt, I actually really do think that that response was incredibly generous and

Grief is a weird time. I know that I popped off on people for a lot less, which I'm not saying is okay, but I do think that even taking the time to truly explain that to somebody, that felt this way, I really can't take it right now. That is an act of generosity. That is somebody giving you information that she really didn't have to do. She could have just sort of taken her ball and gone home and been like, I'm just going to ghost everybody and nobody could blame her for that, right?

But she pointed out something that is just something we all need to remember. I need to remember all the time, which is that

the death of her child put her in this unavoidable position of having to field and manage other people's reactions to the death of her child. So yes, you said the wrong thing, but she has also had hundreds, if not thousands of messages, calls, texts, letters, meal trains, whatever come her way and

in the most disorienting, harrowing experience of her life so far. I'm going to assume this is the worst one. And she has been taking in not only her own feelings and her own experiences, but also the feelings and reactions and experiences of way too many other people.

And in my experience, compounding all of that with your own grief is literally too much. It is too many inputs. It is too many things to manage emotionally and psychologically. You did the thing that you can do already. You apologized. You apologized sincerely. And you got a really sincere response. It's not the response you wanted, but it was one that was honest and

And I think that says a lot about you. And I think that it says a lot about the quality of this relationship, even if this relationship is on pause right now. Because not everyone could say to somebody, you hurt me and I can't talk to you right now. Because we know that not everybody can hear that. But she knew that you could. And I want you to feel good about that. Like she knew that you were a person who could take that feedback. And I want you to feel good about that.

And maybe she does not know quite how sensitive to rejection you are, but she felt like she could do that with you. Like you were a safe place to do that. And I think you should feel good about that. Yours were not and will not be the only clumsy words that she receives. I promise you that. I wish it weren't true, but it's true. Yours were not and will not be the only wrong words she hears, but they might've been. It feels like they just were the

straw that broke the grieving mother's back in this case. And this is actually why when people ask me what they should say to someone, I mostly reply like, I don't know because I don't know them. I don't know them. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what this person is feeling. I don't know if they're feeling guilty over the death of their child. I don't know if they're feeling angry. I don't know. I don't know them. I don't have enough context. But I also say, do not underestimate the power of just showing up and shutting up.

Or just saying something simple like, I hate this for you and I'm thinking of you. I'm thinking of you and I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Because I do think that when we think that our words are going to be so perfectly selected that they will be the balm someone needs, that is when we inevitably fuck up. But I also think that the other side of this, the other good news is that you know.

You have more information now. You can consider every piece of feedback, even the ones that like hurt you, right? Even the ones that hurt you that you feel shouldn't hurt you as like practice and as experience. Like every time that somebody gives you a little bit of feedback, you don't have to take that in as an absolute no.

fact about who you are, you can take it in as feedback and you can consider even this experience, which is, I mean, I will be honest with you, this went like as badly as I think something, maybe not as badly. This didn't go great. It didn't go great, right? You can take even something like this and say like, that was practice. Like this is something that I can learn from. And you can let it hurt you because honestly,

I think that's normal. I really do. As a person who's not a therapist and not a mental health professional, but a person who also really, again, who does like to hear horrible things about themselves? Who likes to get feedback? I know six absolute sickos who love feedback. They're like, tell me what I did wrong. I want to hear it. I want to hear it. But this is more information. And you know more now than you did before. You know more about your friend. You know more about yourself. I think that's the whole point of being alive.

We get support from Skims and I personally get support from Skims because as you've heard me talk about numerous times, I am not a girl who inherited her mother's huge gazooms. I inherited my father's

flat chest. So thanks a lot, Steve. But guess what? You can't tell when I'm wearing the Skims Ultimate Strapless Push-Up Bra. You can't tell. You can't tell. You would look at me and think there's a woman with boobs and you would be wrong because I am simply wearing Skims. And their push-up bras are, as a connoisseur of push-up bras, they are the real deal.

Recently, I wore my Skims push-up bra, just the regular one, the one with straps, in New York City. I was visiting my friend Carolyn and she said, oh my God, your boobs look amazing. And I said, it's the bra and you know it. Skims are viral and popular for a reason. Everybody loves Skims. If you're looking for your new favorite bra, a perfect bra, I got to tell you, you got to go check out Skims. Tangled.

Tank top season is coming up. It's 80 degrees in Phoenix, Arizona today. So you're not going to want your strap showing unless you are a person who doesn't mind your strap showing, in which case that's fine. Honestly, just be yourself. But if you're a person who doesn't want your strap showing, if you have events to go to this summer, weddings, I don't know, parties, what do people get invited to? And you want a great strapless bra, check out the Ultimate Strapless Push-Up Bra from Skims. The Skims fabric is so beautiful.

gorgeous on your skin. And they come in a range of skin tones, which I also really love. So if you want to see what all the fuss is, go to gims.com, check out the Ultimate Bra Collection. I'm also a huge fan of their bralettes. Most days I am just wearing a bralette because truly that is all I need. But you know what? Certain events, I want to look like I have boobs and that's when I'm reaching for the pushups.

So if you like it, if you like what you see, if you buy something, after you place your order, there is like a dropdown that says like, how did you hear about this? Select podcast and then choose thanks for asking so they know that we sent you and that it was a good investment to work with us. I know that is a weird request, but also that's how the world works. So happy shopping. That's skims.com by the way, skims.com. Let's get back to the show.

We get support from StoryWorth, which is a company and a product that I've loved for a long time because I love stories. I love uncovering people's stories. I think that everybody is interesting. And who is more interesting than the father figure in your life who is, for whatever reason, the father figure in your life?

that has been socialized into a locked vault, a vault of information. StoryWorth Memoirs makes it easy to get these stories out of the people in your life. Every week, StoryWorth emails your dad or whoever you pick to do a StoryWorth Memoir with. They email them a memory-provoking question that you helped to get picked. Questions like, did you ever get in trouble in school? Or

What helped shape your belief system? All your loved one needs to do is respond to that email with a story. They can write it over email. They can also record it over the phone and StoryWorth will transcribe it. It's so easy. You don't even need like an additional app. You will get an emailed copy of your loved one's response as they're submitted over the course of a year. So you get to enjoy their retelling of stories that you might already know. But guess what? Once somebody is prompted and they are alone in the comfort of their own

or wherever, they will find a new angle to the story. They will find a new detail. You will absolutely be surprised by the stories that you thought you knew and the stories that you never knew. When the year is over, StoryWorth compiles all those stories and photos into a beautiful keepsake hardcover collection.

This is a treasure. It's a treasure for you. It's a treasure for future generations. Everyone loves StoryWorth. Everyone. They have preserved millions of family stories since their founding over 10 years ago. They have more than 40,000 five-star reviews on Trustpilot. They're the real deal.

My mother-in-law is currently working on her StoryWorth memoir. Shout out to Sherry. I see your responses. You're being a great storyteller. But I also think this is a great gift for the dads in your life. Your dad, the father of your children, the father figure in your life. It really creates a beautiful gift that you can cherish for years.

So right now you can save $15 during the StoryWorth Father's Day Sale when you go to storyworth.com slash thanks. That's storyworth.com slash thanks to save $15 on your order. Storyworth.com slash thanks.

We get support from Indeed. If you run a business, own a business, and you need to hire someone and you realize, you know what? I've actually been needing to hire someone. I probably should have hired someone yesterday, the day before. I have heard.

from many business owners, many business people that hiring is stressful. I myself have experienced that stress and wow, I wish that I would have turned to Indeed because when it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need. You can stop struggling to get your job posts seen on other job sites because Indeed has a sponsored jobs feature that helps you stand out and hire fast.

So when you use sponsored jobs, your post jumps to the top of the page for relevant candidates, okay? Not just anybody, but the people that you want to see this job posting. And this makes a huge difference. Indeed pulled the data and sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed have 45% more applications than non-sponsored jobs. I'm not hiring, people have asked. I am not, but...

When I was, it was probably one of the most stressful things that I've ever had to do. It's just, it's hard to find the right people for the right job. But back to Indeed Sponsor Jobs, one feature is that there's no monthly subscriptions. There's no long-term contracts. You're only paying for results. And in the, oh, I don't know, minute or so I've been talking to you,

23 hires were made on Indeed, according to Indeed's data worldwide. So there's no need to wait any longer. You can speed up your hiring right now with Indeed. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at indeed.com slash TFA. So go to indeed.com slash TFA right now, and you can support our show by saying how you heard about Indeed on this podcast.

Indeed.com slash TFA. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring, Indeed is all you need. Now, I also have to say, I'm not a person who has lost an infant. I've lost a pregnancy. I have lost a parent. I've lost a husband. I haven't lost a child. Not like a child, like a child was here that could like squeeze, and I know it's different. So I actually am calling a friend so we can discuss this and hopefully...

give you a little more ease. Hi. Hi. So Ashton, I called you because I have a situation, our caller had a situation that I really think you are the most qualified person I know to kind of take this one on. What an honor. To take this one on. I picked you for a couple of reasons. You're a deep feeler. You and I, I believe, are

We're deep feelers. And also sometimes we're blurters. I think you and I have both probably stepped in it. We've stepped in it. We've done it. We've done it. We've done it. But why are you qualified to talk about this experience? Because my kid died. That's the resume. Top of the LinkedIn page. Yeah. Top of LinkedIn. Tell me about Hank.

Oh, Hank is my middle son. He was the most gentle baby that has ever existed. My oldest was kind of a typical firstborn. We were done having kids after that.

And then Hank happened anyways. And I was terrified of everything about him. And it's like his whole existence, he was determined to just sort of debunk every fear I had. So he, from the moment he was born, like he was rhythmic, he was gentle, he was predictable, he was pleasant. I would often forget

That like, I set him down somewhere. Like, I'm going to set you down and I'm going to go do this task. And then 20 minutes later, I'd be like, oh shoot. You're still on the ground over there. Okay. And just like sitting happily. That's how Ralph was too. I was like, dude, you got to say something. Yeah. Like, so yeah. I mean, just a delight in every way. Yeah. Um, how old was Hank when Hank died? He was one year and three weeks. Exactly. Um,

Yeah, he was one year and three weeks. Exactly. We had just celebrated his first birthday. We had just made a trip to Texas where Casey, my husband and I are both from. Hank and my oldest are 23 months apart. Exactly. So Hank's birthday is August 27th. Louie's is September 27th.

Later, our third born was born February 27th, which is very fun. But yeah, 27 is getting tattooed on my body. But yeah, like we had just passed Hank's first birthday and Louie was 10 days shy of turning three. And

I think I was saying earlier in this episode that like grief, other people's tragedy is something that we just trip over. Like we just are like, it just truly brings out like, I think the best of us and also just like the clumsiness of humanity. What were some of, and by the way, like I think the trippiest one of all is like someone losing a child. Mm-hmm.

It's truly, it is every parent's worst nightmare. List the nightmares. There's just really one, you know, and that's the one. What were the ways that people reacted to Hank's death that were clumsy? So Hank died. He choked on a dry bean drink.

That I assume he found like under the fridge or something like that. The way that the scene went is I had just baked some banana muffins, not banana, not muffins, banana muffins. And I handed him one. I watched him take the bite and he immediately started choking.

Three hours later, he was not alive. But like we did everything right. Like we were trained in CPR. We knew the Heimlich maneuver. Like we did that. We called 911. Like it's not, it didn't even happen when we weren't looking. Like it was just kind of a really super freak accident. And we only learned that it was actually the dry bean because they did an autopsy, which was like a blessing and a curse because it was like,

Okay, cool. So it wasn't even the food that I handed him. He actually had the dry bean in his mouth. That's the part that I didn't see. So when he went to take the bite of muffin, he inhaled it like it literally went down the wrong pipe. Like we say that all the time. Well, that literally actually happened. And so...

I think that the biggest sort of sting that would hit us is people would say like, oh my gosh, my kid's never going to eat a muffin. Like that's off of the menu. I'm never going to let them out of my sight, you know, and they would say these things.

things like, I think they were probably trying to communicate. I don't know what, if they were like intentionally trying to communicate anything, they just said it. Um, but what it would feed, what I would receive is, Oh, you think that you can prevent that? Like you think that I did something wrong and you're going to learn from my story to make sure you don't end up in my shoes. And, you know, I was over here trying to convince myself that I was

still a decent human being and not a negligent mother who let my kid die because, hey, guess what? Like on a base level, the job is keep them alive. Right. And so when that happens, it's like, oh, I mean, how can you not feel like you absolutely failed? Like that's that's the just base level job description of being a parent.

keep them alive. And I couldn't do that. So what am I supposed to think about myself now? You know? And then someone says something like, Oh, I'm going to make sure. Yeah. Thanks for letting us know it was a muffin. I'll never give him a muffin. Yeah. I was like, well, it wasn't even the muffin. It was the driving, but whatever. Yeah. It's the driving. You better have ever, you better have your house swept of all small things that a child could put their mouth with just everything. Yeah. And even if you did that, it just,

It's, it's, I don't know. I think it's people just really just want to say something like they just want to say something. Was there anything people said to you that was truly helpful or comforting? In those initial days, like, honestly, I can't think of anything. Like people told me that they loved him. People told me that they loved me.

People would tell me about him. Like, gosh, I just remember this thing. Like, I remember how gentle he was. I remember this funny story. Like, they would let me know he was important.

And they showed up, you know, like, those are the main things that I remember from those, like, early days. Like, later when I was ready to sort of process some of the, maybe, like, theology around just, like, you know, as a believer in God, like, gosh, where was he and what is that? Like, there were some, like, somewhat helpful conversations there. But, like, for the most part, no, like, nothing. Like, I don't think, if anyone even said, like,

that wasn't your fault. Like, I don't think that would have even really helped because the loudest voices was the one that was in my head and there's no one, nothing anyone could have said to like undo that or help that right then. People would tell me it's okay to not know what to do with yourself right now, you know, and even better to like get ahead of me and take care of a need by providing a meal or just coming and sitting with me by, you know,

asking if we would like to come over for a play date so that we could just be by ourselves and be miserable and be a mess and not try to parent while we're figuring out how to, you know, live without our other child. When you read these texts, how did your body react?

I honestly felt so much for the friend. Like I saw both sides so vividly. Like I immediately saw from the friend, okay, you thought to yourself, what is going through their head right now? What are they wondering? Like, what's, what are the lies that are going through their head? I'm going to try to like debunk it. You know, they're thinking that everybody is thinking that I'm a nice, legit parent.

And I'm going to go ahead and call that out and say, no, no one's thinking that about you. Like, I feel like I could vividly see what was going through their head and I could appreciate it. And I could also see from the mother's point of view of like, that's why that wouldn't feel good though, because that message might not have been there.

Yeah. And so then it's like, oh, well, thank you for suggesting something for me to worry about. What are people thinking about me right now? Yeah. Yeah. I did too. I did too. And the caller had said, I have rejection sensitivity dysphoria and it's hard for me to get any kind of feedback. And so this truly is your nightmare kind of feedback, which is like,

Oh, I'm in the worst day of my life. And like, you didn't help. Like that is my personal nightmare. And I also think to me, like whether or not you have ADHD, rejection sensitivity, anything,

it would hurt to know that you said the wrong thing if you are a decent person. And so I think it's actually like good news. You're a decent person. Cause that should, it should wound you a little bit, right? Like it should be that kind of feedback should hurt. And I don't think it's like a personality defect in my opinion, to be like, Oh, I hurt someone's feelings. They told me really kindly, I think really respectfully and like really lovingly to be like,

And for a bereaved mom, a person who is in like the depths of

of grief to even take the time to be like, look, I got to tell you something. I can't list how many people I either snapped at or ghosted. Absolutely. I was going to say, you know what I would have done? I would have just ghosted you and never talked to you again, because I did that to many people because you have this much battery, you know, and she used some of that to like communicate to you. So if there's any part of you that can like receive that

effort as love, like just go ahead and let that soak in. Um, because it would have been easier for them to just go see you and feel whatever they felt towards you and not say a word to you. That would have been easier. Yeah, it would have been. And, and I don't know that it would have felt that much better to wonder for the rest of your life. Right. Right. Like, did I say the wrong thing? So I don't know. I really, I feel this so deeply because it really did give me

a lot of empathy for the people who said kind of horrible things to me, right? Like what she said was clumsy, but it wasn't unkind, right? Like it wasn't meant to be unkind. You'd see the kindness, right? Like I'm going to go do research, try to say the exact right thing. And

I do have like with a lot of remove from it, right? Like over a decade, like a lot more empathy now for the people who are just like clumsily trying. And I would never, ever, ever expect that level of grace from somebody who is in the thick of it. And that grieving mom really did. Like she did it so gracefully. She did it so gracefully. And-

I think, were you saying like, yeah, take that, like receive it with love because it can be something that you like grow from, I think. Yeah. And like, I mean, I, I'm five and a half years into this and I can now, I

view those people because that wasn't the only thing they said you know that was maybe something within that whole conversation like I think of and it's just so current like anyone who is willing to kind of venture into that space with me and share a memory or share something kind or just let me know that they're thinking about me that's a vulnerable act every time every time someone speaks anything around Hank or

They're taking risk, like they're taking an emotional risk because it would also be easier for them to not say anything, for them to just sort of stay in their fear of like, I don't know what to say. I don't want to say the wrong thing. Like they could just stop there and not say anything. But they did like they do venture in and I can appreciate that now. I can see it as love no matter what they said. You chose to say something.

And I can receive that as love. Back then, if what they said was the wrong thing, I might not have had the capacity to like appreciate it at that kind of minimum level of like, oh, risk, vulnerability, love. Yeah. I didn't have the capacity to like see it all the way through, but I can now. So, you know, for her, like there might be a moment in a couple years where that, where the mom is ready to like have another conversation with

um there might not like they're just and that doesn't mean that she hates you or that she's been thinking about it all this time it's just losing a child changes I mean losing anyone changes you you know um and sometimes you just don't double back to sort of tend to the casualties that happened along the way like sometimes you just don't and there's nothing more to it than that um

But yeah, I definitely would not. I would try so hard to not just hold this for forever and feel like you are a terrible person and feel like you really messed up. Like you didn't wound them any more than they already were wounded. You know, like it's just that early on, I think.

And it's maybe it's association or just like part of it. But like you just you're pretty cutthroat with like the people who make it and the people who don't. And there were so many friends from that earlier time that just didn't didn't make it into our life after. And some of those people, I'm like, I know why you didn't fit anymore. And some of those people, I don't. Some of those people, I'm like, I don't know, you just didn't fit.

I just didn't want to talk to you anymore. And I don't know why, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And it's not like you're, I think I'm so glad you said that it does not mean that they're like laying in bed, wishing you the worst. And like, you know, I think it's, it's, uh, there are many casualties of, uh, of a death. Like it really does change. It does change everything. But, um, I really do. I think it's such a good, I think it's a good reflection on, um,

the friend, right? Like not the grieving mom, but the friend that like,

the grieving mom could say that to her. That is what I want her to take away from this. I don't want her to feel like she is the worst person alive. You aren't. There are people who definitely try to hurt people's feelings. There are people who would not care. There are people who would get that text and be like, okay, bitch, I was trying to help. Sorry. There are people who would do that. That is probably the worst thing you could do is try to fight back because

As much as I want you to find love for yourself and like forgive yourself, I also want you to know that it's not about you. You know, like you, the best thing for you to do right now is to continue to be their friend. And that means taking it right now. And that feels so kind of selfish for me to instruct. But that's what your friend needs. Like they do need you to take this and to figure out how to forgive yourself by yourself and not have them take it.

not make them forgive you and communicate that and like do all of that mental work. I don't know if that's what, I don't think that's what this person is asking you for, but. No, but that's a, that's really good advice though. That's really good advice to like take that. And that's an act of generosity too, to be like, I will take this now work on it on my own and I won't

try to make this something that you have to guide me through. You're right. I love that one. I love that one. Ashton Zaker, thank you so much. I did not get to mention this about Ashton, but Ashton is an artist, a fiber artist, and I've bought a weaving kit. I have gone to one of her workshops at Pinners. I am such a fan. And actually, I'll put this in

the episode too, but I am looking at one of her most beautiful weavings that hangs in my studio and makes me so happy. And I get so many compliments on it. And I have to say, I bought that. Thank you. I bought that. I bought that. I don't know if you know, I have many- I'm here to weave it. I'm here to buy it. I have many frequent customers that found me because of you. So I- Oh, that makes me happy. That makes me happy. And I think that there is something very like

healing about and meditative about that kind of movement too. So we'll link to Ashton's website in our show description. As always, she's also a great follow on Instagram if you like beautiful art and deep feelings. What is your handle so I get it right? Ashton Zager Fiber Arts. Ashton. Yeah. Ashton Zager Fiber Arts. Is it? Mm-hmm.

I knew it. Ashton, Zager, Fiber Art. Ashton Zager is her real name. And I think it's so unfair when someone has like a fully cool name. Yeah. There was no question about whether I was going to take Casey's name or not. I was like, oh yeah, Zager. Yeah. That's cool. Zager is a cool name. Also that's AZ. Yeah. I know.

Like, yeah, that's good. It's good. It's like, you really should only change your name if it's a solid upgrade. Absolutely. You know, it's just, you know, if it's a solid upgrade, but that's neither here nor there. Thank you for being here. I appreciate you. And I'm sure our caller will as well, because it's hard. It's hard. It's so hard. It's so hard. It's all hard. It's hard for everybody. It's hard. It's hard. All right. Thank you for being here. Yes. Thank you for inviting me. It was an honor. Bye.

Bye. We get support from Masterclass, which I love because I'm a person who loves to learn. And if you are looking for a good gift, a gift for yourself, a gift for upcoming birthdays, a gift for, I think Father's Day is coming up. Jeez Louise.

If there is something that you have always wanted to do, if you've always wanted to get into painting or write a novel or learn how to make croissants, which why does that seem like the most complicated thing on earth? Whatever it is, you can achieve it. You can learn it with Masterclass. If you know someone who's trying to stop scrolling, stop just binging the news, you can help them spend their time learning from the world's best with Masterclass.

Masterclass is the gift of learning. And I don't think anything compares to a gift that can actually change your life for the better. Masterclass lets you learn from the best so you can become your best. When I tell you that they have the best, I'm telling you they have one of my very favorite writers, Michael Lewis.

on masterclass teaching writing, teaching how to tell a great story from start to finish. I think I'm a good storyteller, but I'm no Michael Lewis. Okay. So instead of scrolling, I got to sit down. I actually streamed it onto my TV because I'm a technological genius and got to really go deep and learn how he creates structure, how he simplifies very complex topics and how

It was such a good use of my time. But basically whatever you want to learn, you can learn it on Masterclass. And like I said, you can do this anywhere on your phone, on your computer, on a smart TV. You can do it on audio mode because honestly, sometimes I just like to listen to things too.

It's still only $10 a month billed annually, and a membership with Masterclass gets you unlimited access to every single instructor, which is an amazing deal. Plus, every new membership comes with a 30-day money-back guarantee. So like, what's the risk, really?

As always, our listeners get great discounts on Masterclass. You will get at least 15% off any annual membership at masterclass.com slash ttfa. See Masterclass' latest deal, which is at least 15% off at masterclass.com slash ttfa. Even though we are not ttfa anymore, the code still is. Let's work with it. Masterclass.com slash ttfa.

Hi guys, it's Nora. If you like what we've done here on Terrible Thanks for Asking, you might want to check out our YouTube channel. We have two new videos going up every week over at youtube.com slash at feelings and co. That's feelings and co. There's a link to it in our show description. So see over on YouTube if that's what you're into. And if you're not,

What a sales gal I am. Okay, so you said the wrong thing. You hurt somebody's feelings. You know that intention and impact are not the same thing. And you also need to know that punching yourself in the feelings over and over and over is not going to change anything. It's not going to change anything for your friend. It's not going to change anything for you. It's not going to change anything for the better, at least.

it's not going to erase the words it is not going to help your friend and it definitely won't help you the only way forward is through which means you have to let it go like ashton said you have to absorb it only to the point where it helps you learn and grow and then you have to let it go you do not get points for leaving your hand on a hot stove

Your bruise won't heal when you keep pushing it. I actually don't even know if that's a fact, but it doesn't help, does it? Unless it does help, if you're a doctor and you know something about bruises that I don't know and did not bother to Google, you can let me know. But you aren't an evil person. You did not wake up and say, "Hmm, how can I hurt a grieving mother that I care about deeply?"

You are not a person who refuses to grow and refuses feedback and texted me to say, "Hey, can you believe how rude this grieving mother was? I was just trying to help. Like, can you believe she reacted this way?" You are a person who made an error, saw your error, and apologized.

And it is okay that the consequences of that error hurt you. Again, I think it would hurt anyone who has a heart and a soul to know that they hurt somebody that they care about. But you do not need to keep hurting your own feelings to atone for the fact that you hurt somebody else's feelings.

The mark of a good person is not that they've never made a mistake, that they've never made a misstep, that they have never said or done the wrong thing. The mark of a good person is that they can see their actions, own them, and grow from them. You can carry this experience forward and give grace to the people who hurt you and to the people who will hurt you in the future. You can look yourself in the eye and say, hey, there she is.

There she is. I know her. This is a person who cared enough to try. This is a person who can bear to get it wrong. You do not need to wear this experience like a suit of armor or like a scarlet letter. You can wear this, this experience like a scar and let it remind you that you can try, you can get it wrong, and you can survive.

I'm Nora McInerney. This is Thanks for Asking. This is a call-in show about what matters to you. And calling in, texting in, is a real act of bravery, especially when we are sharing something that we did, something that we are really, really struggling with. And so I really do want to thank our caller, our texter today, for sharing this experience. I really do. That was a brave thing to do. That was a really cool thing to do. And I

i think we all appreciate it i think we all appreciate when somebody can show us their imperfection show us their humanity it's a hard thing to do and you know there before the grace of god go all of us saying and doing the wrong thing all day every day thanks for asking is an independent podcast we are out here on our own there's a lot of big names in podcasting there's a lot of big companies in podcasting we decided

It's not for us. It's not for us. We want to do things our own way. We want to do it at our own pace. We want to have a humane life, even if it means that it's like a little bit more of a struggle, which is not something I'm putting on you. I'm putting that on nobody because it's like, you know, there's bigger problems in the world and we don't have problems, okay? That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that

We exist because of you. So thank you for being here. Thank you for listening. If you want a way to support our show, we have all of our episodes archives from back when this was called Terrible. Thanks for asking. All of my new writing. I write a weekly essay all over on the subject that is

listed in the episode description. It's noraborealis.substack.com. You can join monthly, you can join annually, or you can join as a supporting producer. And our supporting producers are the people who have said, I want to pay a little bit more than what the annual fee is to support this show. And they put in a little bit more. And as a thank you, they get their names in the credits.

So we are going to, you're going to watch me read these. Okay. All right. So big things to all of our supporting producers. I'm talking about Ben, Jess, Michelle Toms, Tom Stockburger, Jen, Beth Drary, Stacey DeMauro, Emily Fariso, Stephanie Johnson, Faye Behrens, Amanda, Sarah Garifo, Jennifer McDagall, all caps, Elia Feliz Milan. I love that name. Lindsay Lund, Renee Kepke, Chelsea Cernick, Car Pan,

It's a nickname, but it's going to stick. How do you think that's pronounced? That's like a vocal warmup.

Katie, Jessica Latexier, Crystal Mann, Lisa Piven, Kate Lyon, Christina, Sarah David, Kate Beyerjean, Erin John, Joy Pollack, Crystal, Jennifer Pavelka, Jess Blackwell, Micah, Jessica Reed, Beth Lippum, Kiara, Jill McDonald, Jen Grimlin, Alexis Lane, David Binkley, Kathy Hamm, Virginia Labasse, Lizzie DeVries, Jeremy Essen, one of my favorite widows,

This episode was produced by Marcel Malakibu and...

guess who's back? Grace Berry is also back helping us out. Our opening theme music is by Joffrey Lamar Wilson and our closing theme music they were hearing right now is by my young son Q. He was eight years old when he came up with this ditty. He would like to be credited as my young son Q and he's working on some more themes for us too. So you, you might hear some new theme music if he ever decides to release it from garage band. We'll see you here again, either next week or the week after.

Who's to say? Hi guys, it's Nora. If you like what we've done here on Terrible Things for Asking, you might want to check out our YouTube channel. We have two new videos going up every week over at youtube.com slash at feelings and co. That's feelings and co. There's a link to it in our show description. So see over on YouTube if that's what you're into. What a sales gal I am.