Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
This episode is brought to you by The Hartford, a leading provider of employee benefits and income protection products that is dedicated to standing behind U.S. workers to help them pursue their goals and get through tough times. For more information about The Hartford, visit thehartford.com slash employee benefits. We've also got a link in our show notes. This podcast is supported by FX's English Teacher.
a new comedy from executive producers of What We Do in the Shadows and Baskets. English teacher follows Evan, a teacher in Austin, Texas, who learns if it's really possible to be your full self at your job, while often finding himself at the intersection of the personal, professional, and political aspects of working at a high school. FX's English Teacher premieres September 2nd on FX. Stream on Hulu.
I'm Nora McNerney, and this is Terrible Thanks for Asking. If you're a longtime listener of this show, you know by now that we often start our episodes by talking to our guests about their childhood. I am not a psychology expert, but I have been to a lot of therapy, so I know that the things we go through as kids shape who we become as adults. But for Liam, and maybe for some of you too, there's just not much to talk about.
Because Liam doesn't remember a whole lot about his childhood. Not in any major detail, anyway. I feel like other people can be like, oh, I remember doing such and such thing as a kid. And I'm like, I remember a photograph of me as a kid. Like, I don't have, like, memories where I'm in a child body. But it's like kind of just like a black hole of nothing when I try and think back on it. And I'm sure that has to do with trauma. Yeah.
The details surrounding specific moments can be hard for all of us to recall. It's sometimes easier to remember the general feeling of a time in your life. And for Liam, that feeling was disconnection. Like something just wasn't right. I would say the first time I really realized that was like around probably age four or five when I started going to school.
Because it was like back then they'd make you line up like boys in one line, girls in the other line. And I was always just like lining up in the boys line. And then they'd be like, no, you go in this line. And it was like, what?
Like, I didn't, I never really thought of myself as a girl, you know, and like growing up, I had one childhood friend who was a boy a year younger than me. And as we got older, we stopped having sleepovers and we stopped like taking baths together and we stopped doing all the things we had been doing when we were like young kids. And I was like, why?
I thought we were the same. And I can remember being like in the backyard of my parents, like in the little shed where they stored the lawnmower and was like, okay, you show me yours and I'll show you mine. And it was like, oh, when do I get one of those? Like it was a moment where I was like, oh, we look different. Like, why is that? Because for me, I just felt like we were the same. The one of those that Liam is waiting to get is a penis. He's surprised that he doesn't have one because he feels like he's the same as all of his friends.
Liam is being raised as a girl. He was assigned female at birth the way all of us are assigned to sex at birth, according to physical attributes. But for young Liam, that just didn't make sense. When you're five years old, you don't always have the vocabulary or the emotional capacity to explain why something doesn't feel right. But in certain moments, you're allowed to choose what does. Like during Halloween. I was...
a blue M&M, and then I was a tiger, a bunny rabbit, a prince in second grade, Peter Pan, and then an army man. And then after we turned 10, we didn't do Halloween anymore for whatever reason. Is this a family rule? Yeah, it was. I don't know why. Even just like when I was playing with my friends at that age, it was like I was always the dad or the brother or like the dog if it meant that I got to be like a male name.
It made me feel better. I didn't know why, obviously, at the time. All kids do play the different roles, but for me, it was like I was always one of those roles. I was never the mom or the sister, you know? I just knew that I felt better when I was being called a male name. Those traditionally male costumes, male names, and male roles make Liam feel good. They feel normal. But these aren't feelings that little Liam can share with his family.
So my parents are like evangelical Christians. So extremely conservative, extremely strict, which is just weird because honestly, my dad grew up Lutheran, which is pretty open-minded. And my mom grew up Episcopalian, which is also very open-minded. But then they went off to college and joined some group that was like very extremist and
And so, I mean, my dad was a pastor in the church. So we were at church every Sunday. And then every Wednesday was like a small group meeting where you would talk about the sermon that had just happened on Sunday in more in depth with like, you know, four or five other people. So it was, you know, every three days we're doing something church related and
Once I was in high school and college, it was like, if you want to live in this house, you have to go to church every Sunday. I don't remember any specific conversations being like, you can't be gay. And nobody even was talking about trans at that time. My mom has a gay sister. And when her sister came out to her, she told her to go to a pray away the gay place.
So it's like my aunt and her partner would come along and I knew that she had a partner, but no one ever told me like, that is her wife. Obviously it wasn't legal at the time, but like, I didn't know. I just knew that it was like my aunt's friend who came along all the time. So it wasn't like a discussion that we ever had. As he gets older, Liam starts to comfort himself by doing little things, making small changes to his appearance to help him feel more like a boy and less like the girl everyone seems to think he is.
I wore my hair in like a small bun on the back of my head. So if I looked in the mirror, it looked like I had short hair, which again was like a comforting reflection, which I didn't know why it was so comforting, but it was just like a way to like self-correct the discomfort I had with myself. Over time, these small changes start to become a big problem at home, a problem that Liam's parents feel like they need to confront head on.
Starting high school, I had a really short haircut. I had cut off all my hair into a little anti-afro haircut.
And that summer was always wearing backwards hats. And like, we were at a birthday party and tons of people that we didn't know that were friends of the family were there. And they thought that I was their son. And my parents like had a total flip out about that. And we're like, we can't have this happen anymore. Like you need to grow your hair out. Like we can't have people thinking you're our son. And I remember feeling like so good when I would dress like that. So they made up these rules, right? To get rid of all my clothes. I could keep like my two favorite shirts and I had to get all like feminine clothes and
I mean, I had this like contract that I had to sign that was called the Life Challenge Covenant. The Life Challenge Covenant was a two-page long set of rules that Liam was expected to follow to, quote, become a mature woman. Liam shared the list with us, and it includes things like...
Feminine style clothes will be worn every time we are out of the house on a year-round basis. This includes shorts in the spring and summer that will be feminine styled shorts. No basketball shorts, etc. Outfits must be approved by parents.
Parent approved feminine earrings will be worn daily. This can be eliminated in the future if you choose to grow your hair to at least shoulder length and wear it in an obviously feminine style. Wear a feminine colored shirt at least once a week to school. We will provide new shirts for this. Possible colors could be mint green, yellow, light blue, peach and lavender.
Once a month, you'll wear a skirt or dress for church. We will make this a family dress-up day, and all members will participate with you. We'll shop together for these items. I had to follow all these rules, and if I did all those things, I would get a cell phone, which, like, I was 15. Everyone had a cell phone besides me, so it was like, of course. And I don't think if I had said no, they probably wouldn't make me do it anyway. You know, I don't think there was really a choice. It was like this perception of a choice.
It doesn't feel like a choice because it's being set up as a covenant, a word that means an agreement, usually formal, between two or more persons to do or not do something specified. And one can speculate that the reason for the covenant was because Liam's parents were worried that the child they considered their daughter was going to turn out like his aunt, gay. In my junior year, I had a friend a year older than me. Neither of us could sleep well, so I would sneak out. She'd pick me up, and we'd just drive around, listen to music.
And one night we're parked just like at the school and then she tells me that she's gay. And I was like, oh, that's cool. And then like a few weeks later, we're at her house watching, I think Criminal Minds. We would like stay up till three in the morning watching Criminal Minds and then like scare the crap out of ourselves having to drive me home at 3am. It was like, I would like run down the driveway like I'm going to get murdered. Yeah.
but she just leaned in and kissed me. And it was like the best thing ever. I was like, wow. Cause I'd had boyfriends prior to that. And it like kissing was just kind of like bland and like not exciting. And I was like, why do people like kissing? This is weird. Um, but that was like, whoa. But then I like freaked out, not in the moment, but like a day later I was like, Oh my God, I'm so disgusting. Like, I can't believe I did that. Like,
How could I be such a sinner just because of the things that I had just heard throughout my life that I couldn't even give you an example. It was just all the little things that were said from the time I was in church to that moment. I didn't talk to her for three months because I was so upset at myself.
What could have been a really beautiful experience of young love was instead tainted by shame. But Liam now knows at least that he likes girls. So his senior year, he starts dating one. I honestly can't remember how it first started, but like,
She was experimenting. I was experimenting. I don't even remember how the first moment happened, but I do remember that we would meet up in the girls' bathroom and just make out before school. Because in the basement bathroom was not so much traffic, so we knew that no one would really come in. But then if somebody would come in, she'd just stand up on the toilet. Yeah.
So I was dating this girl, and her parents were Catholic, and she danced with my sister at her dance school. And they somehow found a note that I had written to her and gave it to my parents, who then brought it to me. So they sit me down, and they're like, oh, so you're gay. And I was like, no, I'm not. And then they just pull out this love letter I've written to this other girl. And I'm like...
Oh, and I can't remember anything after that. I know they read to me from the Bible. I was crying. That's really all I can remember from that moment. And she was 15. I was 18. And in New Hampshire for same sex couples, the age of consent is 18 and 18. Not that we did anything beyond kissing, but they were threatening to have me like arrested and like put on the sex offender list because I was like dating their daughter. Oh my God. Her parents did? Yeah.
Yeah, and mine. We all sat down together, and my mom would print out the list of things I could never do again if I was put on the sex offender list. Because at that point, I wanted to become a teacher or, like, a soccer coach. And she's like, you can't do any of those things. And I was like, what? We just kissed, like, one day. And then this is how my family communicates, is, like, through letter writing. We don't do, like, face-to-face confrontation. So then I started getting letters from them. I'm a senior in high school. I'm still living in their house, and they're just, like, leaving these letters on my bed to come home to, like...
Oh, like you're going to have a lifetime of shame and misery and separation from God. One of the letters that Liam's mom wrote to him at the time said this. I feel strongly that God is leading me to do this, to bring the secret sin to the light, to expose it to those who love you and desire only God's best for you and will actively pray for you. I will not hide this because hiding it will allow it to fester and overtake you.
They wrote a whole letter to all of our friends and family being like, we need help praying for her life. Our family's under attack, all these kind of things. And saying how for a while that someone had a vision that there was something lurking in our house waiting to devour my mom. And that, oh, my sexuality was that thing that had been...
there waiting and it was like this whole thing they were like fasting to try and save me from it and I was like what the fuck we want to make a note here that throughout these letters and at certain points in this episode Liam's parents and therefore the people reading these letters refer to Liam by his birth name this is something that we discussed with Liam directly and he gave us explicit permission to refer to both his birth name and the sex he was assigned at birth
The letter from Liam's mom also says things like,
Kayla is under extreme attack from the enemy of her soul. And we are asking you to join us in committed warfare prayer for her deliverance from same-sex attraction. The thinking here seems to be that if enough people tell Liam that he's wrong, that the things he's feeling are wrong, that maybe he'll just stop being a lesbian. That with enough prayer, they can defeat the wild animal trying to destroy his soul.
And in their mind, like they're doing the most loving thing, which is like telling me God's truth. So I, cause they just think at this point and in my current life that I'm like following the world's views. I'm not following God's truth. So they think they're doing the most loving thing possible to save me, which is to do these things. Like none of it is ever hateful.
It's not like, oh, you're disgusting and you're going to hell. It's like, if you don't change, then you're going to go to hell, you know, kind of thing. Like, we don't want you to go to hell. We'll be right back. We'll be right back.
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Liam is receiving physical letters from his parents on a regular basis, imploring him to reconsider his, quote, choice, to find God again. And he's also feeling pressure from family, friends, and community members, pressure that is meant to come off as loving but feels really awful. Eventually, Liam heads off to college, where his parents will no longer have a say in how he lives his life.
So I entered college, like, just shortly after coming out as lesbian. So I was, like, super excited to, like, explore that and be like, wow, like, I finally felt like I found the thing and the reason why I felt so uncomfortable. So I joined a pride group and I played rugby, which is like a very queer space.
And everything was good. I mean, I had friends, I was like, had good classes, I was like, seemingly had all these good things. But like, over the years, I was still like, very sad. And back then Tumblr was very popular. Like, that was like my diary.
I was always writing, like, why do I feel so numb? Like, I can't feel anything. Why am I so empty? Like, what is wrong with me? Like, all the time, like, I had all these good things. Like, why couldn't I just be happy? I seemingly had all these happy things, but I couldn't feel happy. Like, I still just felt that same, like, discomfort and disconnect that I'd had forever.
And then in 2015, I studied abroad in Poland with two guys and two girls from my school. And the whole time I felt like one of the guys. Whenever we had to split up or do something, it was like I wanted to go with them. I felt almost like an intruder having to live in the girls' room with them. I was like, I don't belong in this room. And it was the same way as like when I was a kid. I just felt the same as them. That same feeling that Liam had when it was time to line up in elementary school is back now.
The same feeling he'd get while playing house. He felt like one of the boys. And Liam starts to wonder, could he be trans? He thinks it's possible, but he's not sure. So he does what any good 20-something college student would. He asks the internet.
So I spent a lot of time on like YouTube watching transition videos, like how do you know you're trans, reading things, all these things. But I was still like, I'm like, I don't really know for sure. And like, I didn't think there'd be any possible way I could actually like do anything about it. I was like, okay, that's cool that everybody else like transitions and does stuff. But like, I don't think I can do that.
And it's the fall semester of my senior year and I'm like depressed, I'm drinking all the time, I'm skipping my classes and I was just like those feelings like did not go away. They're like stronger and stronger and stronger. It's like I was very fixated on like the male body but not in like a sexual way but in like an aesthetic way. It was like what is it like to have one? What does it look like? It's just like a curiosity and I couldn't get it out of my mind.
But I thought, like, am I not a lesbian anymore? Like, I was very confused why I was thinking about it all the time. Those feelings didn't go away. This is a lot for one person to process, and Liam is processing all of it alone. He's trying to make sense of who he is at a time when he still has to go home for holidays and special events and be around his family. Family who had tried to pray his gay away, who fasted to try to save his soul.
I can remember it was like right before Thanksgiving, we had like an early Thanksgiving with my childhood friend who came home from the military, the same one who I'd grown up with. And I just was feeling so like mentally distraught that I was like, there's no one I can talk to, like nobody that I know that I can even try to explain how I'm feeling. And I like had a mental breakdown and I was supposed to stay the whole weekend. I ended up leaving after like we ate lunch and I was like, I can't be here.
I drove all the way back to my school just like crying the whole time, just being like, what is wrong with me? Like, I don't know what is wrong with me. I have no one to talk to. What is the point? That was like the last time I was like very actively suicidal. I was like, I can't see a future as a woman. Like, I don't know what I'm doing when school's over. Like, I don't know what's wrong with me. So distraught. Liam can't see a future in a world where he has to live as a woman.
He struggles with a near constant sense of discomfort and dysphoria. He's self-medicating with alcohol to soothe the pain. And it helps a little bit, sort of, for a little while. I had realized that like, oh, being drunk, I like don't feel any of this like discomfort and like chaos that I feel within me all the time.
And I don't feel numb either. I just feel like I can't remember anything. At first, only at parties and stuff, I would get really, really drunk. And I was like, I'm not going to say I have a problem until I'm drinking by myself. And then I started drinking by myself. But yeah, my senior year, I was drinking all the time. There's this senior dance that happens in the fall. And I don't even remember going or getting in or taking pictures.
Because I was like blackout by 7 p.m. Numbing the chaos doesn't make it go away. Liam needs something to fix the discomfort, not just to mask it. January 2016, I was like, I'm going to shave my head. Something I had thought about for like a long time. And I had a bunch of female friends at the time that had shaved heads. So I was like, maybe I can just be like a cool shaved head lesbian, you know. That was really what I was thinking. I was like still trying to not think about the whole gender thing.
But then I shaved my head and I can remember like halfway through everyone had like five or six friends that were there and they were like, wait, are you sure you don't want just like a pixie cut? And I was like, get rid of it. Like, get it all off. Like, I'm ready. This is happening in the dorm lobby of my friend's dorm. So after my friend's done shaving my head in the lobby, I just go around into the bathroom and it was like a lightning bolt.
I can't even put words to it. It makes me emotional still to remember the just like, oh, there you are feeling that I had of like, oh, this is what I've been searching for. This is what other people experience when they look at themselves. I was so excited to have no hair that I had bought a bunch of hats again because for so long I had my hair was...
And I took a bunch of selfies wearing this hat. And I was like, I felt so good. Like my confidence was like the highest it had been at that point. Because I was like, wow, I feel like me just even in these pictures, like it's as simple as a haircut.
We'll be right back.
It's been seven years since I had my last baby. Seven years, which doesn't feel possible because it feels like I just had him. It goes really fast, except when you're in it, every decision you make feels like a huge one because it is. This is a whole human being and you're responsible for keeping them safe and loved and growing and thriving. By heart gets it.
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Liam is trans. When he looks in a mirror and sees his shaved head, he finally feels like he's staring at his own reflection. And slowly, he takes other steps to feel even more like himself. Things like wearing a binder and dressing in the kinds of clothes he's always wanted to wear. But he still hasn't told anyone yet. I made a video to my YouTube channel, which at that time had like three subscribers. It was the very first time I'd ever even said it out loud.
was in this video. I just posted it because I was like, "Okay, I've told strangers." Hi. So, I'm Kayla. And I really, I don't know where to start. I have been really, really struggling with this feeling, like, this feeling that I've had for, like, my entire life. That I'm not a girl. I've never felt like a girl. I've always felt like a boy.
And now it's just like I decided I really can't ignore it anymore. I have to let myself be who I am, who I feel like I am on the inside. Like, the minute I cut my hair, I suddenly was like, this is how I have always felt. Okay, so this is me, and I'm transgender. I started texting some friends. Like, I didn't do a lot of face-to-face, which I do recommend that to people because
It gives you time to think about what you're going to say. It gives the person time to think of their response versus having to deal with their immediate reaction if you're face-to-face. I told a lot of people over texting or Facebook Messenger. Before I came out publicly, I wanted to tell people that were important to me so they weren't surprised and just get a feel for how my family was going to take it, my extended family.
And I knew going into it that my parents weren't going to be okay with it. So they were like the dead last people that I told. And the other person I was afraid to tell was my sister because we had been very close, not so much as young kids, but once we got to middle school and high school. And I was worried that she would feel like our sister bond was going to go away. And that's one of the only ways I still misgender myself today is I'm always introducing myself as her sister. And I'm like, whoops, I mean, she's my sister.
It's just like my brain cannot get sisters out of it because we were sisters for so long. So it feels weird to be like, I'm her brother. The word brother is not familiar to me. Next on the list, Liam's grandparents. My dad's parents, we grew up living with them from the time I was four until the time I moved out. So from pretty much my entire life. And I saw them every day of my life. So I wanted to explain it really, really well so they could understand why.
His grandparents' response came to him in the form of, you guessed it, another letter. An email. This time it read, in part, We love you. We're not really surprised at your letter. Just relieved you're ready to talk about your feelings. You and your sister are our closest grandchildren, and we've always felt blessed to be such a close part of your lives. We'd love to talk more with you, so let's set a private time when you're home."
Nothing you say or do will stop us from loving you and admiring you for the person you've become. My grandfather was like, I need to know more about trans stuff. He was not into computers. He retired because his work made him use a computer. So he was like, I'm going to go to the library. I'm going to find some books about being trans. And he was mad because there was like two books.
And they were both written by trans women. And he was like, there needs to be more information. Like I'm coming here to learn about something. Why is there not more books here? He would like send me newspaper clippings. Anytime there was something translated in the newspaper, like he just wanted to know more and understand more. Right before he died, he was like just teaching me how to do a proper handshake. Just one night randomly, he's like, come here, let me see your hand. He's like, okay, this is how you do a good handshake. Giving me this man lesson.
My grandmother's been with me to every talk I've ever given and was always with me at the state house when I was promoting a discrimination bill that passed in New Hampshire. Super involved, has always been 100% on my side. I talk to my grandmother about it now. She used to want to ask me and be like, what is wrong? My grandfather was always like, just wait.
Like, she'll come to us when she's ready kind of thing. Everyone that Liam has shared the news with so far has been supportive. And now it's time to tell his parents. So I did it over Skype because obviously face-to-face was going to be too much. This was as face-to-face as I can handle. And I really only did because my sister was like, you need to tell them before spring break and we're all at home.
I started crying like immediately as soon as they got on the call. Because I just knew like they've been so against my life up to this point. Like this is going to like extremely blow their minds. I don't remember what I said. I probably said something like ever since I cut my hair, like feelings that I've always had came back. Like I always felt like a boy. I just didn't know what it was. And the first thing that my mom said was, you'll never be a real man. And I can still like see her expression. She's like,
got the wrinkled forehead, she's leaning forward like one hand on her chin and then my dad is sitting back in his chair like arms crossed just like looking and I can't remember much else that they said after that I don't think it was a very long conversation. A few days later my mom came to take me to lunch and had this whole conversation she was like "so we'll support you like if you want to go to therapy to like be okay with how you're born but like we can't support you in anything else"
Just like when Liam came out to his parents as a lesbian, his parents continue communicating with him through letters. Here's one from Liam's dad written in 2019. "What we honestly struggle with is that people don't see that in your choice to change your identity, we are forced to change an identity we loved and wanted to keep. Our identity has always been that we are the parents of two daughters. We are now the invisible ones because of your change of identity.
We're confused why we don't have just as much right to choose not to change our identity as you have to change yours. We are looked at as the bad people, the horrible parents, the ones who don't care. And that is just not the case. We do care. We care enough to share our true hearts with you. We care enough to say we don't think this is the best course for you.
In their minds, like...
I was saying that God made a mistake. I'm like, I have never once said that. You say that. You say that I'm saying that. But they were pretty much like, you'll always be our daughter. Like, you'll always be our little girl. Like, we won't call you Liam. Like, that was their stance. Liam's parents have told him where they stand. And then they tell their church as well.
In a letter sent to members of their congregation, to friends and other family, Liam's parents once again ask for help in saving their daughter. Our strong sense is that her transgender feelings and desires, while absolutely real and valid, are another symptom from the trauma. It isn't safe for Kayla to be a woman because she has suffered repeated abuses in that gender role.
So we believe her mind is telling her that being male is the best way to be safe and finally have peace. We have spoken to Kayla about our fears and concerns for her well-being. We've let her know that we love her and accept her without reservation, but we cannot support this decision because it's so dangerous emotionally and damaging physically.
We let her know we feel it is a hopeless pursuit because it's impossible to ever achieve the goal of becoming biologically male, which is what she's seeking. She is convinced she will be the exception to the rule and will turn out to be one of the happy ones after going through this planned gender transition. Part of what makes these letters and his parents' response to Liam's coming out so hurtful are the conflicting messages.
They say Liam's feelings and desires are, quote, absolutely real and valid, and that they love and accept their child without reservation. You don't have to do what I say to have my approval, and I couldn't be prouder of you in all you've accomplished as an adult, whether as a male or female. You will always be worthy of all my love, regardless of your choice in this situation.
They also discredit those same feelings and emotions when they tell Liam that they cannot, will not support him if he lives life as a transgender man. Not using your chosen name is not a matter of disrespect in my mind or my intentions, but rather a matter of being truthful about who you are in my eyes and how you were created by God. It's clear from these letters that his parents believe that everything they are doing is out of a deep love for Liam.
They worry that transitioning won't make him happy. They worry that his salvation is in question. But their love and their concern only hurt Liam more. Because they're not just disagreeing silently amongst themselves, they're invalidating him and his existence out in public, in front of family and friends, in front of church members that Liam doesn't even know.
Yeah, so that was like six months after I'd come out and we had just been away at like my mom's parents 50th wedding anniversary. So my other grandparents also were super supportive of me, but I don't see them that much. So we were all together for the whole weekend. At this point, I'm like one month on hormones.
Most people at the party are just like gendering me male. So I'm like passing pretty well. I probably look like a 14 year old, not a 22 year old, but I could hear my parents talking like, Oh, we got the girls a hotel room for themselves and like things like that. And I remember like, it was so hard because in the whole weekend they're calling me Kayla. They're calling me. She just like an early transition. Everything feels so much more like painful and fragile and,
Because you know so much who you are, but like the world can't see it yet. So then every time that like you get gendered incorrectly, it's just like devastating because you're like, no, that is not me. Like I sat in my grandparents' bathroom for like 30 minutes and just cried in the middle of the party. So I was like, this sucks. Like I just cannot be around them. Whenever I'm around them, I feel terrible about myself. I'm like, I can't keep doing this. Like,
back and forth thing. And so when we got back from that, I was like, I can't like be around them anymore. And so I wrote them this long letter, pretty much saying like, I think you knew all along and you've been trying to squash it out of me ever since then. And pretty much was like, if you can't call me Liam or he, then like, I'm not coming home. Like, I'm not talking to you. Like,
No holidays, no parties. Like, I just like I can't. It's too detrimental to me. And I thought that that would be like the catalyst for them to like change this. Like, I'm literally never going to speak to you again. Like, shouldn't you want to like change if you're going to risk like losing your child? But they wrote back to Kayla and pretty much defended their side.
My mom's was a lot more, like, defensive. My dad's was a little more apologetic of, like, we know this is hurtful for you, but it also hurts us, too. Like, you know, I was talking about how much it hurt to be called Kayla, and he's like, it hurts when we hear other people call you something that's not Kayla. To protect his peace and his mental health, Liam decides to take space away from his parents. But it doesn't last long because his parents are a gateway to his grandparents, whom Liam loves so much.
And then my grandfather was sick. And I was feeling guilty, too, at that time of like not being around as much because my grandparents live with them. So it's like in order to see my grandparents, I'd have to see them. And I'm like, wow, this kind of sucks for me, too, to like not have my family anymore. So my grandfather, he's like, maybe you need to change like the way you're going about it. You know, he's getting sicker. I don't want to like not be around for the end of his life. Like, I will regret that.
So I ended up reaching out to them and being like, hey, do you want to get dinner? And whatever. We agreed to come to this middle ground place where they call me red and neutral pronouns. So neither side is hurt. Because honestly, I felt disconnected from my family for as long as I can remember. I felt like an outsider. And then for one brief moment when I was going to come out, I'm like, maybe this is it. Maybe I can finally feel like
happy and connected to the family because like i can be happy within myself and i'm like imagining like game nights and i'm imagining my dad teaching me to tie a tie and i'm like imagining all these things and like that got crushed right away when their reaction was like no we won't support you it's literally as simple as saying liam i don't want you to become like crazy allies go to parades or nothing it's literally just call me liam
You're still so stuck. Liam allows his parents into his life only when it allows him time with his grandparents. They remember to call him Red most of the time, his nickname from when he was a kid, Red Hair, Red nickname. But Liam eventually realizes that this doesn't feel any better than when they call him by his birth name.
And at the same time, Liam's life is also joyous. He's finally able to live his life freely. He feels comfortable in his body for the first time that he can remember. And when he meets new people, they know and love him as Liam. And that's how he meets his partner, Han. In 2018, I was like involved with the House bill in New Hampshire that was going to add gender identity to the protected groups that were under discrimination protections already.
They saw my story and replied like, oh, thank you for sharing your story. And then we just like mutually followed each other. Flash forward to April 2019, I had made a series of tweets being angry at my parents for misgendering me all of Easter. They sent me a message the next day like, hey, like just wanted to say hope today is better. Like I know holidays are hard for us LGBT people.
And then we just started talking from there. And it was like instant connection. We talked all day long over instant messenger. And then I gave them my phone number before we went to bed because they're like, oh, I'm signing off to go to bed. And I was like, oh, here's my phone number if that's easier. They gave me their phone number. And then I waited till like 10 a.m. the next morning to text. So I was like, I don't know what time they wake up. I don't want to be like too creepy texting at 6 a.m. when I wake up. So...
I'll text them at 10 a.m. and be like, hey, it's Liam, you know. And they'll tell me now, they're like, I was in a meeting and I saw your text and I was like, yes. And we've been talking every day since then. Less than six months later, Han and Liam are engaged. And to Liam's surprise, his parents tell him that, yes, they do want to attend the wedding. But first, Liam's sister gets married. Liam is one of the groomsmen, and it's been about three years since he transitioned.
My dad, obviously my brother-in-law and his friends were all doing photos beforehand. And he's calling me Kayla during that time. I'm literally standing here in a suit next to you with the groomsmen. And a few weeks later, we got like the sneak peek pictures. And the picture from my dad's first look with my sister was like, it's a beautiful photo. A beautiful photo. The photographer was amazing. But it just like broke me into a million pieces when I saw it. Because I was like,
There is nothing like I'm never going to feel that way about them. And they're never going to feel that way about me. That moment of just like love and happiness and like excitement. And like, I, I'm never going to feel that when I get married, I'm not going to have that. They're not, they're going to be there. Maybe reluctantly. They're not going to hug me and be crying about how good I look like that. That feeling that they, that moment that they shared is something I have never had. I will never have with them.
Liam's dad isn't there to teach him how to tie a tie. Liam has to use YouTube tutorials for that. His parents will be at the wedding, but not in the same exuberant way they were for his sister. But Liam's not alone, because Han's family welcomes him with wide open arms. Their family feels like family. I mean, like, they accepted me right away. It was like,
Me being trans was as minor as me having red hair or being right-handed. It was just a part of who I am. I felt comfortable with them right away. When we first started dating, I was spending every weekend there because we lived an hour apart, so I would just come for the whole weekend. Most of my relationship with them has also been always spending time with their family. It is the family comfort connection that I always felt like I didn't have with my immediate family.
Liam and Han get married in August 2020. So we ended up just having a small ceremony outside of our church with just our parents and our siblings. And my parents came and it was a beautiful wedding, but I will say it was a little bit weird to know that like half the people there didn't really support us fully. Not in the same way that like when my sister got engaged, my dad made this whole Facebook post about being excited to welcome him into the family and all these things.
I love our wedding day. It was special to us. Someday in a post-COVID world, we're going to have the actual wedding that we planned. Don't know when. Maybe on our fifth anniversary. And you know what? I'm only inviting the people that I want there, not the people that I think I need to invite. This whole process with my family has just been one big grieving of the family that I should have had or thought I had that other people get to have.
with parents who are supportive and proud of who they are as a person. It's much more confusing than death. I mean, death is very final and permanent. And then this way, it's like I'm losing people who are still alive. Liam is an uncle now through his very happy marriage to Han.
He owns his own business. He and Han share three cats and one dog. They're working on buying a house together. He's living the words he once put to paper in a letter to his parents.
I'm a new person, a better version of the person that I've always been. I'm the happiest that I've been in my entire life. I'm more confident in myself. I can look in the mirror and feel proud of the reflection. I searched for many different ways to be happy with myself before I realized that this is who I am. There is no more searching.
This has been terrible. Thanks for asking. I'm Nora McInerney. Our team is Marcel Malakibu, Jacob Maldonado-Medina, Jordan Turgeon, and Megan Palmer. Thank you to John and to Beth and to my mom.
Madge, Madam, for lending their voices to this episode. If you would like ad-free episodes of TTFA, you can go to ttfa.org slash premium. It's $7.99 a month. Terrible Thanks for Asking is a production of APM Studios at American Public Media. Executive Producer and Editor Beth Perlman. Executives in Charge, Lily Kim, Alex Schaffer, Joanne Griffith. I'm Nora McInerney. I'm an author. You can find my books wherever you buy books.
So what I had done before I came out to anybody was they texted a couple of my friends and I was like, Hey, like, what do you think my name would be if I was a boy? Like, ha ha. Funny question. And she was just like, Liam. And I was like, Oh, I actually really liked that. It just fit. And Liam means strong protector, which is like,
entirely my personality. I was like the protective older sibling. I'm like always putting other people first. Let me protect everyone. Like that is entirely who I am as a person. So it fits me so much better than the other one. And there's like, there's a family connection to it too. Yeah. So my grandfather's name is William and Liam is just the shortened version of William, which I didn't even really realize until later. But I was like, oh, that's, that's another special meaning for me too.
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