You don’t talk about telescopes? And other questions to distract yourself from Election Day anxiety (with Kate Kennedy!)
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Hi guys, it's Nora. If you like what we've done here on Terrible Thanks for Asking, you might want to check out our YouTube channel. We have two new videos going up every week over at youtube.com slash at feelings and co that's feelings and co there's a link to it in our show description. So see over on YouTube if that's what you're into. What a sales gal I am.

Hey guys, it's Nora. It is election day and we are practicing a little bit of self-care. We are doing what we did in 2020 when stress was high, tensions were high, and we are providing you with what we call the election distraction episode. In 2020, I asked my newish friend, we had not actually met in real life, it turns out,

But, you know, we were friendly on the internet. I asked my friend Kate Kennedy from the Be There in 5 podcast to come over to our show and do what she does best, which is just talk. Kate's podcast is one of my favorite ones because I love to hear women talk and

And when Kate puts out an episode, it is often one to two hours of literally just her talking, doing a deep dive on a topic that is interesting to her and by default, interesting to everybody else because Kate has a way of making things seem very interesting.

There are two hours of this conversation, me and Kate in her basement in Chicago. And then there's two more hours over on Kate's Patreon because after we were done recording this episode, we went and got dinner, we took an edible, and we kept the party of two going. So let me sweep you off of your anxious little feet and into Kate's basement.

I think we're talking about graves. Yes, it might be a good thing that we're starting over. I think it's a good thing we're starting over because we're talking about graves. And also, I forgot to introduce us. And I'm Nora McInerney. And I'm Kate Kennedy. And this is Terrible Thanks for Asking Election Distraction 2024. This is a Patreon exclusive.

This is hopefully hours and hours, nine to 10 hours, I'm going to guess, is the final recording will be. For sure, for sure. Of just small talk, deep talk, any kind of talk except election talk. We are practicing...

denial. We are practicing self-care. We are practicing... What does it do for you to just doom, scroll, doom, consume, like election media? I'll tell you what it is. Yeah. Kornacki. What a stud. Steve Kornacki and his khakis doing the election maps. Oh my God. I thought you were talking about a psychological principle and I was like,

So in my head, it was Kukominski method. What even is that? I've never seen it. I don't know. I don't know either. No, Kornacki is the Adonis of cable news programming during election season. And he's gay and he has a partner. But like when I say he's my type. That's it. You see a pair of khakis. You see khakis and a good side part and you say –

That's my man. That's my man. That's my man. I'm going to go get him. Wreck my plans. Yeah. Do you look at the screen or the person? I obviously prefer to look at the screen because I want to look at myself. It's like it's doing something like this is like FaceTiming with a toddler. Yeah. Well, because Kelly and I always look at the screen. So we're talking to the viewer, but I guess they're watching us talk to each other.

I'll swap back and forth. It's hard. It's hard. But I'm looking at you because your makeup looks so good. You look really good. Thank you. Like you walked down on the porch and I was like, look. Stop. Truly, you're like holding a dog. You're wearing like a matching set. Like your house is decorated for fall. I don't live in a place that has fall. So I walked down like a leafy street drinking. I got a flavored coffee. I never do that.

And I was like, wow, I get it. I get why people like seasons. It's probably Minneapolis adjacent. Yeah, it is. But Minneapolis just feels so different for me. It's hard for it not to be like a haunted place.

city of anxieties. Because of your own ghouls? Of all my old ghouls, but also generational ghouls. At the graves? I think we're back at the graves. We're back at the graves. I'm not afraid of graves personally, but I do, having been raised Catholic, I think a grave does feel powerful. A grave feels powerful. But I did just recently go to an unfamiliar cemetery hoping for a powerful experience, and it was flat. It was...

It was just not Catholic. Honestly, I could tell. The cemetery wasn't Catholic. It just didn't have enough oomph. It was all very like, eh. The Catholics do like to spend money on unnecessary adornments. Yes. Yes. Okay. That's what makes them good. That's what makes the tithing worth it. It really does. It's like, I want aesthetics. When I go into a house of worship, I want to know who's in charge here. Yep. And it better not be me.

Okay. No, no, no, no, no, no. I don't want to consume our experience where I know that I am right. And I'm going to get, you know, a reclining seat and a gift shop. I want, I want to see that at a church. I swear I've been in mega churches where it,

It was like, you know, not a full recline, but like a nice rock to it. A decent like regal cinemas. Yes. Yeah. I was going to say I've never been to a cathedral without a pretty traditional pew. Yeah. But the megachurches, they do it right. They know how to evangelize with like the Catholics do aesthetics best. The megachurch sucks you in the best with aesthetics.

comfortable accommodations and like snacks and games and good music. Yeah. Yeah. They make it fun. Catholics are committed to no fun. Yes. Yeah. It's fun. Imaginable out of church. No fun. No fun at all. I would, I went to church with some of the same people for years and night and we never exchanged anything more than the sign of peace.

Oh, God, no. Like no conversation. No – I don't know their names. I always wanted to do peace like I was hoping a guy in my class that was cute was nearby. That's how he would select my seat. I would guide my family towards Andy Hannon and he knows that. I've said that publicly. I'm fine with people knowing that. You use names of former – Full names. Yeah, you do. Yeah. I'm too scared. Some people are full name people. I mean I think he – I mean he knows because he was on a live show. I did once. Yeah.

Is that the middle school boyfriend? Yeah. I was on that live show. A boyfriend? No, no, no. Oh. We never spoke. I like just pined for him silently for like –

had to be close to a decade. That was the episode that was me, your middle school crush, and the guy who hosts The Daily. Yeah, that makes sense. And it was- What a cornucopia. What a cornucopia. And also it was three hours long because it was 2020 and I was so unwell. I was like so lonely and in a new city. Oh, was that Happy-ish Holidays? Yeah. Okay. It was literally three hours long.

Because I just wouldn't stop talking. Oh, yeah. That's what I do. If you can't do that on your own show. Yes. That's what I said. Where else can you do it? Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. That was funny. People stayed. We didn't know each other then. No. That was 2020 and we had only met when we did. The election. What was the episode called? It was called Election Distraction. No, it wasn't. Oh, your episode. Yeah. But I had one too. Yeah. I don't know.

I think you were on the one called Are You There, God, It's Me at Target. Does that sound familiar? It might have been. You're so good at naming things. Oh, thanks. You're so good at naming things. But sometimes a good name doesn't come up. So pressure's on to have good wordplay. The pressure's on. Election distraction 2024. Should we have gone back and looked at what we talked about that episode to see where... I know one thing that we talked about because I got an email about it and somebody was unhappy with the way that...

I either get emails that are so nice and so heartfelt and someone is like revealing something like deep and meaningful to them or someone is like so mad at me for something that I'm like –

But like you can't, but then they'll say you're not accountable. I'm not accountable. I'm not accountable. That should just be in our bio. I will not be accountable. We talked about like where people use the wrong words in the wrong places and how I know that's snobby. You hate resonate. I hate resonate. I hate resonate. Like, you know, I resonate. I resonate with that. I resonate with that. And every time someone says that, I think of you. And you know what? Now people are starting to do that with like the word endearing.

Like, use it in a sentence. Like, I'm endearing. But they're not complimenting themselves. They're saying they're endeared towards something. Yes. But I'm like, no, no, no. It's just... Now I'll have to find the example because now it will happen on TikTok where I'm like, no, no, that's not quite right. It's not quite right. I've let go of people describing something, young people, my children, describing something as aesthetic. I'm like, it's not...

It needs anesthetic. It has anesthetic. But anesthetic isn't the aesthetic. No. Yeah. They're like, that's aesthetic. It's like, so you can see it with your eyes? Yes. They're like... And like language of all... But I say the word wrong. Yeah. What? How? I say aesthetic. Aesthetic. Aesthetic. Aesthetic. But people go really... I don't pronounce the T. Aesthetic. I say aesthetic. Aesthetic. I think aesthetic. Now I don't know. Wow. It's like...

I don't know. Do you want to hear more of our verbal pet peeves? I think so. Because you're going to solicit more emails. I know. I know. I know. It's a problem. But also, I know that- Did they say it was problematic you did that? They were like, you just hate people. I was like, I do hate people. I hate a lot of people for no reason. But also, you don't even go here. I know. Why? Why?

Why listen if they don't like you and they think you hate people? I don't know. It was so weird. It's so weird. But I used to take stuff like that like so deep and like so personally and I would like ruin my entire life. Oh, same. Do you want to know what correction was where I drew the line of engaging? And it's not that this person did anything wrong. It's just that it was – I'm like we've – I appreciate the knowledge but –

We really expect people to know everything about everything we're talking about. Yes. And then kind of treat it like an active... It's like...

ignorance or like negligence isn't like necessarily something that you were trying to be offensive. You just didn't know something. So at one point I was, which I never really get into, you know, telescopes, but at one point I was talking about the James Weber telescope and like something was happening through it. You never talk about telescopes? Honestly, this is maybe the only time. Do you ever talk about telescopes? It's, I would say one of my main content pillars. People come to me for telescopes. Obviously. Yeah.

Loss. If I see a telescope. I couldn't name a single effing telescope. I can't even look through them because I have a hard time closing one eye. No, if I see one, I think, I'll just look up at the sky. We went to the botanical garden for the holiday lights last year. And our youngest kid, they're like, once in a lifetime, look through this telescope. You'll see something. And he goes, meh.

What am I looking at? But also, I knew he couldn't see it because he was just like going both eyes open up to the – But like what are you looking at? I never know. I never know. And also it's like to close one eye and then try to focus this one on my eyelashes or touching the thing. I don't – okay. So you brought up telescopes, a hot button topic. You stepped in it. And I – okay. I think it's interesting.

To my credit, I knew what the telescope was called. The James Weber telescope. I'm shocked. And I got an email saying, FYI, next time you talk about the James Weber telescope, you should know that James Weber is notoriously homophobic. Know that! Like every single thing you're supposed to be like, no. Before I mention this...

giant piece of equipment used to look at the sky. Let me make sure it's not named after somebody who might have a differing, uh, abhorrent belief system from mine. And then it was a white man in the fifties was homophobic. Like what do I don't know what to do. So, and I don't remember the person could have been like, Hey girl, just so you know, in the telescope community, we don't use his name anymore, which is maybe that was the context. But I think I just glanced at it and I was like,

Okay, we've lost the plot. We've lost the plot. I can't talk because it was starting to get in my head of like, oh no, because even like advertisers, I'm like, Courtney, did you look up who their leadership is? If they've ever done anything wrong, do they come? And I used to go nuts and I can't do it anymore. I know. There's a scope of work

And I think we can be accountable for the things we say, but we can't always know everything about what we're referencing. Right. Yeah. Also, it doesn't resonate with me. What? Why were you bringing up this telescope? What was that? What is it? It must have been something space related. Yeah. Yeah.

Obviously. He actually just looked at people throughout. What? But not gay people. Not gay people. What? So why did you... Like, literally, what is it? Where is it? I don't know if you feel this way about your job, but, like, this... I...

I used to be marked by my great memory and a lot of my work is based on my memory, but I've lost my memory since I've done this show because the churn of information in and out is so high that once I talk about something, I'm done and I move on. Same. So when people talk to me about an episode, I'm like, I never, I have no idea. Sometimes people will quote me and I'm like, I have no idea who you're talking about. Are you ever like, well, that, that was kind of like wise. That must not be me. Who was that? Who was that? Yeah.

Like somebody quoting you is maybe the most flattering thing ever. It is the most flattering. It is. It really is. You're like a big time author. So I feel like people probably quote you a lot. I don't know. But when they do, I'm like, did I say that? Are you sure? Have you ever seen a quote from you like on Pinterest that somebody like took the time to Canva make into like a print? No, but I also don't really know. I use Pinterest so sparingly and I only just restarted using it to make my monthly and quarterly vision boards. Yeah.

Monthly and quarterly. Monthly and quarterly. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. We call them mood boards. Okay. But did you ever listen to That's So Retrograde? It's kind of an original. An OG podcast. And now Elizabeth Cott, who's on that podcast, has this other podcast called To Niche, which is like niche topics. You take a niche topic, you haul it, right? You talk about like everything. I really, really like her. And she was hosting this workshop recently.

like a vision board workshop on Zoom. And I was like, okay, I'll sign up for it. And it was so amazing. It was like 30 bucks or something, maybe 40 bucks. And I was like, it was worth it. I feel like you'd normally be like, you're a coach coaching coaches, this webinar is shit. Because I get so sketched out by people that teach people to do really standard things, but you're saying it was helpful. It was helpful because she led you through like the questions that she asks herself and then like the way that she does it. And

And it was just nice. It was like really nice. And it was like a good group of people. And you got like she just busted you out into small groups. And I was just like talking to like a woman I didn't know, like a stranger, which also felt like kind of good to be like, OK, so these are the things that I'm kind of like thinking about. Because sometimes it's embarrassing to do with somebody that, you know. Wait, there's a business there. There is. Stranger soundboard. Oh, yeah.

Stranger sounding? Yeah. What's it called? Sounding board? Yeah. Strange advice. Stranger advice. Sounding board. Sounding. Stranger sounding. B-O-R-E-D? Yeah.

um, straight. If you're bored, go on this app and get paid to listen to somebody's idea. Yeah. And react to it. And react to it. Or like just, Oh, I want to, I want to, I guess that's what people use Reddit for. Right. Like I'm thinking this thing is that like an okay thing. Like bouncing an idea off somebody. Oh yeah. B N C E. Yeah. No, no more vowels. No more vowels. Um,

So that's the only reason I use Pinterest now. So I don't really go on it anymore. So what do – if people want to like get distracted by asking themselves the questions you ask yourself monthly and quarterly, like what are they? I mean so part of it is like asking about like what you want the next month to look like. Okay. And then I also add like what are my priorities for this month or this quarter? Yeah. Like and what do I want it to feel like?

Feel like meaning what? Happy, sad? Literally feel like. What do I want to feel like? I want this month to feel like in August, I was like, I had one goal and I was like, I just want to go paddle boarding on the Salt River with my friend. And that's the feeling you had? Yeah. I was like, that was like, no, that was like my one priority, truly. I was like, besides getting the kids to school and work or whatever, which is so boring, I was like, I literally want to

go paddle boarding on the salt rivers there's like a picture of like when i was paddle boarding on the salt river the last time and then um yeah it's like and searching pinterest for like you have to add the word aesthetic so it's not all just like oh of course memes or like ads basically how to's um and so my q3 one i can pull it up actually hold on one my i made one for the year

See, but I mean, before I didn't even know what you want. I don't know what I want in this life. So I made this one like this is based on the Kate Bear poem, which is idea. You know, I will enjoy this. She has a privacy screen on her iPhone. Oh, I do. Because I because I'm a snooper. So it's like if I'm on a plane, I'm reading your texts. But you're not reading mine because I've got a privacy screen. But you would never put it on TikTok. I've seen people put people's texts on TikTok. No, never. We're going to talk about that. We're going to talk about that. OK. OK.

People being filmed in public? Yes. Yeah. But first we're going to talk about my vision board. So for the year before I did this, you know, I, I, before I did the workshop with Elizabeth, I just had people come over to my house. We had a stack of magazines. We ripped a bunch of stuff out and we just like, you know, just the old fashioned way, right? The old fashioned way. And I knew that my theme for 2024 was I will enjoy this life, which is the line from the Cape Bear. Okay. Right. So that's, and then I,

Oh, and it's your background. And it's the background on everything. So I see it all the time. And so it says, so there's all these like little clips and it's very peaceful. There were chickens. There's like countries is happy living. Just one thing. And then I,

tore the poem up into a bunch of little pieces and the full poem is up there. But like the thing I see every day is, you know, my life, I will not waste it. I will enjoy this life because I want to enjoy this life. And do you think I've enjoyed like the past, like,

10 years. I haven't. I haven't. I haven't. Not enough. You know what I mean? It's like I was really just so focused on like doing and like, you know, I was listening into you doing a speaking engagement earlier today and you're like, you just have to kind of hit it.

hit when it's hot. You have to and you know that too. Some of the things I had to do, all the things at one point I did want to do, I did. I really did. If you would have talked to me six years ago, I would have been like, there is no limit to my ambition. I will do it all. And I'm like, there are so many limits to it and I have met all my limits. No, literally. I've pushed past all my limits and now it is like when I hit that limit, I'm going to listen to that limit.

you know what I think we both did and why we both kind of burned out a little bit at the same time. Yeah. I not to project this on you, but the way I've, I think I hustled so intensely trying to get to a point where I've like made it, then I would taper off. I want to realize this type of work. I'm going to have to be active all the time to make money.

In some form of what I'm creating. Yeah. So like I can't sprint anymore. I have to just figure out a way to like steadily do a little bit because I don't think I'm ever going to hit it big. Yeah. I think I'm just going to have to hit a lot of stuff and see what sticks for eternity. Yes.

Did you ever – do you kind of see your career as like, I'm going to do all this stuff and then chill? But then I'm like, that's never going to happen. I don't want to retire, but like I want to be selective. I want to be selective. That's my goal. I've never been selective. I've never been selective. I said yes to so much stuff. And also it's like I would always say yes in the room, which I don't do anymore. So it's like – Like meaning what? We have one conversation and you're like, let's do this thing. And I go, yeah.

Oh, okay. And then I've committed. Yeah. And then it's like, but I haven't thought about my life. I have a hard time conceiving time too. Oh gosh. So, you know, like even just as of last week, like I had not, I texted you. I was like, where do you live? Where should I book an Airbnb? Yeah.

Well, and you put the wrong date on the calendar for the event you were going to. I did. I did. I also had the right date, but I also had the wrong date. Yeah, yeah. You know? But also it's like I had somehow – yeah, it's like these things just don't mean anything to me. So even last week, like every week I sit down with the boys and I like go through our – like everybody's calendar and then I put the calendar on the wall for everybody to see. Right. And I was like, oh my God, I go to Chicago –

Like Sunday, I did that. And I was like, I leave in two days. Right. That's October. It's October right now. And you're like, I'll cross that bridge when I get there. And the bridge is here. We're halfway on it. No one told me. And you got an Airbnb a block from my house. I did. I was like, I looked up your address last night. I was like, I'm so close. And that Airbnb is horrible. It's so gross. I would have given you some recommendations. I know. But also it's like, I just, I was like, oh, it's good enough. And even though I know myself to be

at this age, an accommodation snob. I was going to say, I thought you were more of a snob. I'm kind of surprised. Yeah. Well, I looked at a bunch of hotels from the point system that I live in and it's just like the deals weren't there. And then also I was thinking about I am now focused on when I'm leaving someplace, how do I get the easiest, you know? Yes. Like this is the best way to get out. Yeah, for sure. It's staying right here. So-

And like my flight's on Friday morning. I don't know. I didn't – I just don't think of things. I just don't think of things. Sometimes when I'm on a plane, I'm like, where am I going to go when I get there? Oh, I think we're probably kind of similar in that like other –

So I think when you create for a living, when you write, when everything that's your end product has to be from scratch from here, I can't do clerical stuff. No. Otherwise, like I kind of need to be in a creative headspace. So like Courtney handles so much of life schedule, kind of like Matthew does for you. But then in like norm, then when I have to do it in normal life, I realized like,

Oh, I'm ill-equipped to function. Yes. And I go somewhere alone or somewhere not work-related. I'm like so last minute that it's kind of like, I'm amazed I've even gotten this far because like my parents will book plane tickets eight months in advance. I can't book things more than a week out if I don't want to go anymore.

Yeah, what if I don't want to go? I need flexibility. Yes, I do too. Okay, that makes me feel better. Yeah, I'm the same way. But I am like spending all, I feel like all my money goes to hotels now because it's like at this point in life, I just, I don't want to do it anymore. I don't want to do it. Yeah. And I also don't like to travel already. You know, like there are people who,

really enjoy it. Like Matthew's one of those people. And he's like, Oh, I love Chicago. Oh God. You got to go new places and trying new things, going places. And he's like, Oh, you know, when I travel, I always try to like go to a place I've never been. I'm like, I literally, if I do like a speaking event, if I do a work trip of some kind, I'm truly, I'm at the hotel and I'm at the airport and that's it. I know. And I, I'm kind of like that too, because well, that's what's,

work travel for anybody else it's like a consultant they're not like at the museums they're in and out right yeah and I think it's the same thing yeah that's true but I also like when I travel I eat meals in other cities that's pretty much all I do yeah I don't even I mean sometimes then I'm like do you like museums no I hate museums god damn I'm gonna say something that I would only say on the patreon so boring generally I don't like art

Okay. Generally, generally, sometimes I'll see something that really moves me, but like physical art, I'm sorry. I'm like. Tax haven. Tax haven. Okay.

tax haven. I'm like, you gotta be joking me. I don't know. I just, no, I don't like it. I don't like it. And I, it is one of those funny worlds where you're like, okay, this is pretty boring. I don't really get what any of this is, but everyone else seems to like it. So I'm just going to go along with it. But maybe we're all thinking the same thing. Maybe we all are. I like an exhibit. Like if there's a Warhol exhibit, if there's like some sort of artists that I've heard of, um, I'm into it. But like, I, I actually was wondering if like,

Do millennials even at large have the kind of wealth where when we're older, we'll still be buying and selling fine art? Like what millennial can invest in art? No, we're going to get it. We need houses first. I think about that with...

Okay. So I also think a lot about my own estate sale, you know, because I'm an estate sailor and I will like have a mental breakdown every estate sale. Like I'm like, oh my God, it's like I bought this old man's members only jacket because it was in pristine condition. You think about you being dead. Constantly. And people going to your estate and what they're going to think about you. And I want them to think I have good things. I want it to be worth it. I want people lined up for my estate sale. But I don't – like the days of –

Now, when you go to an estate sale, the people who are dying are like 70s, 80s, 90s sometimes. They've got like that good mid-century stuff, right? We will not have that. No. We'll not have that. They'll be like, oh, yeah, I'm not lining up for like a Wayfair desk, but thank you. You know? Yeah, fast furniture. Yes, fast furniture, fast everything. So this is like also we can't go down this because I will fall down like a different sort of despair rabbit hole. Landfill. We're just –

Hi guys, it's Nora. If you like what we've done here on Terrible Things for Asking, you might want to check out our YouTube channel. We have two new videos going up every week over at youtube.com slash at feelings and co. That's feelings and co. There's a link to it in our show description. So see over on YouTube if that's what you're into. What a sales gal I am.

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Wait, did you listen to my episode Air Bud, H-E-I-R? I'm obsessed. I could talk about millennial heirlooms all day because when I'm buying them, like, I really don't think I have anything to give my kids. Yeah. Because if it doesn't, if it won't sell at a Plato's Closet, is your child going to want it? Plato's Closet doesn't want anything, but all the things that I have that my kids want, because my kids do go through my stuff. And they're like, what do they want?

I mean, they want the – most of it is my parents. So like I have these big vintage maps, like maps of the world that were in my mom's high school. And when her high school closed, like the girls who went there like could go and like take –

take things and buy things. Wow. Looting. Sanctioned looting. Catholic looting. And then my parents have this big old table, which I will get from my mom from a library that closed in Minneapolis. So it's like a big old heavy, the heaviest table ever. It used to be our dining table. They used to make furniture so you couldn't move. Yes. Yeah. Everybody had forever homes and forever furniture. Yes. Forever furniture. Forever chemicals. Now we have forever chemicals instead. Forever chemicals.

It's so dark. It's so dark. It's so dark. So yeah, the things that they want are mostly the things that I got from like vintage stores, antique stores, or belong to my parents. So, aka nothing to do with your legacy and everything to do with what you've collected from other people. Correct. I hear that. Other dead people's things.

Yeah. Some jewelry because like now I'm in – you know, like I follow this account, The Emerald Carrot with a K. And she is fascinating. I want to like do like a TLC show about her or something or her family because her husband's family for years has been like the people who melt down gold and silver. That's their whole business. Goldsmith? I guess. Yeah.

I don't know what a metalurgist, I don't know what it is, but they, so they met, they melt it down. I think mostly for like dentists and things, but like they'd melt it down. They sell like gold bars and like silver bars, which means they buy gold from people, which means they have like a lot of weird like gold and silver ephemera. And she started going through it and being like, these are wild. Can I just sell these? And they're like, I don't care. And so they're like one of a kind kind of like weird pieces and,

Interesting. You buy her stuff? Yeah. So I got like this huge like tourmaline ring that – it's like this big, Kate. It's huge. When will I wear it? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what it is. I don't know what it is. But I know that I felt rich and I could do a layaway plan and I did and now I've got this big old ring and every kid wants that ring. So now when I'm getting things, I'm like, will somebody want this when I'm dead?

That's a really great way to stop buying like gold for mail. Yeah, it's hard though. Like furniture. Jewelry, but like...

I just think that we grew up in such fast trend cycles that I don't know if I develop taste. Like I don't I can't trust myself. I don't always like things that I buy two years later. Try to think of anything that's like a real legacy thing. Nothing tourmaline. That's for sure. Yeah. But did I tell you that? Because we don't know what it is. There might be we might be encased in tourmaline right now. We don't even know. No, I think it's made up.

Or it's going to be like pirate, like fool's gold. Oh my God. What if it is? What if it is? And I was like, I bought this beautiful ring. Now I got to look it up. I tell you, for a week I got into gold panning. Oh. If you come to Arizona, we can go do that. You ever bought pay dirt? No. No.

It's literally dirt people sell in bags that has tiny flecks of gold in it. You have to buy a panning kit and swirl for it. And when I tell you, I had a nice time. I did it in my backyard. That sounds really nice. Do you do it with Teddy? No, it was a Father's Day gift because Greg watches like Gold Rush and stuff. Oh, yeah, yeah. Semi-precious gemstone. Okay. Semi. Yikes. Yikes. Yikes. Okay. But okay, something I struggle with in this life is kind of similar to the art convo is

When I'm told something is like,

precious, rare, scarce, desirable, or like a finer things item, I'm kind of like, says who? Yeah. Like I struggle with status items because their status feels arbitrary to me because if I didn't assign it status, it means nothing. It means nothing to me. Just like all the times when I was in college, after college, where I didn't know what any designer things were. Yeah. So I didn't know if I was wearing like a knockoff of a knockoff of a knockoff that I got it

Oh. Marshalls. You know what I mean? So like you would be wearing a polo by U.S. Polo Association and not know that it wasn't Ralph Lauren polo. That's one I could identify. What is U.S. Polo Association? How did they get away with that?

But, like, you know, like, I didn't – I wouldn't even recognize, like, the Gucci Gs and then how they're, like, you know, watered down into, like, vague patterns at TJ Maxx. Yes. You know what I mean? It's – if you – it's like a Monet, a Farway, it's a Gucci up close. It's an A and a K linked together for Anne Klein. Yeah. But I was like – You don't know that she's appropriating Gucci embarrassingly. I didn't know it. I didn't know it. Totally, totally. So –

Or, I mean, I didn't know what Tory Burch was. Or the Mirakami Louis Vuittons when we were college age were really popular. So then like everything out of TJ Maxx was white with multicolored like tiny letters or symbols on it. But it wasn't Louis Vuitton. But it didn't make any. I was like, I don't know. I don't even know what Louis Vuitton is. I haven't even heard of it. So I didn't really know. You hadn't heard of it? No. I don't know. I just like sort of.

Yeah, I didn't know. I didn't know that. And I just remember like my friend's little sister going, are those sunglasses real? And I go, they're really on my head. Yeah. Like I have no idea what she's talking about. Are you an illusion? What are you talking about? I was like, and now that I look at this picture, I will find a picture. They were fake what? They were fake Gucci sunglasses, but I had no idea I got them in Chinatown.

You know, I've been buying, I've been trying to buy secondhand designer stuff because like I like designer stuff, but I just, I don't want to buy it firsthand. I, you know, give it a second life. But now I'm pretty sure the stuff on the real, real and like Mercari and Poshmark is from DHgate. Yeah. It's all fake. And how do I know how to, I don't know. I know. And that's like, so, and it's all made up. It's all made up. All of it's made up. And like, like boomers, silent generation, greatest generation, they wanted a certain kind of China. Yeah.

Right. That was the status symbol. It's all at the Goodwill or it's in my house. All of it's in my house. I will. I buy that like it's my duty. Do you buy like crystal and glassware? Yeah, I have a lot of crystal. Do you make sure it doesn't have lead in it? No, I don't. Bring me that. No, I don't. I don't care. I'll drink lead. They're going to show this clip someday when I have lead poisoning. How did it end? How did it end? I have that green glass that's like. Everyone shops at your estate sale for the lead that killed you. Yeah.

Sorry. What's that green glass and you like illuminate it? It's like, it's radioactive. I have that too. Yeah. It's like the absence of glassware. Yes. Yes. Yes. So I have a lot of that. I do. I'll serve candy in it. You have to, you have to really be with it for a long time. I think. Yeah. So don't come to my house. I don't know. Yeah. I think that there's really like such

such a fine line between I see a lot of stuff I like then I feel anxious about the clutter and I stop myself yes yeah but like you know how you have cups and they're just your cups you saw my cups earlier really uninspired really mismatched I thought they were great at what point as a person do you upgrade and say let's get better cups I'm gonna get better cups when you're not getting married and always getting cups he's always getting cups did you register for China

No. Me neither. No. We don't have like, in my house growing up, it was hand washed dishware for holidays only. But then on major holidays, my parents were spending all their time gently hand washing. Yeah. When you don't want to be. I have two sets of china from other people's families. Yeah. Because they're like, no one wants this. I was like, I'll take it.

I'll take it. And do you serve on it at holidays? No, but I started to just use it in regular life. That's what we should be doing. Just use it. Just use it. I want to enjoy this life and not use things for special occasions. I started to use, I bought probably lead crystal goblets from, okay, my neighbor died. Betty. Dead Betty, as we call her. And she had

She had the best rugs, Kate. I have so many nice, nice rugs that I could never afford, right? Like heavy crystal glasses, all this stuff. And they were so unused. And I'm like, we're using these. Like we're drinking milk out of these. And someone was like, milk will ruin the crystal. I was like, I don't give a shit. Who cares? Yeah, it doesn't matter to me. Who cares? Let the milk ruin the crystal if it must. How do you ruin crystals once you break it? I don't know.

These kids chug milk so quickly. The milk does not have the chance to sit and be corrosive or cloud it or whatever. Like they're tossing it back, especially if it's a wine glass of milk. Are you kidding? Yeah. A kid's going to glug, glug, glug. Oh, I love a kid with a mature glass. So exciting. They do too. They're just like – it immediately like elevates like their entire life. They're like, oh. Amazing in character. Yes. Kind of like how your son wore a business suit too. Yes.

What were we talking about on that episode about the hamsters? Oh, yeah. He wore a business suit to dinner. A speaking engagement. Yes. It's adorable. He also, for Halloween, he's going to be a businessman. That is precious. Yeah. Does he want to be a businessman? I don't know. Yeah. He wants to. He goes, well, I'm going to be rich. Rich? Rich. Oh, sorry.

I thought you misspoke. I am making fun of him. But only because I love it and we don't want it. Like he's in speech therapy, but we gotta go. Come on. Did you baby talk to your kids? No, not really. Maybe. See, I do and you're like not supposed to, but I'm like life's too short to not baby talk. Maybe I baby talk everybody though because I'm kind of goofy. So I'm still making up songs for them every day. Yes. You know? That's what I like to hear because I love the making up songs part of having a kid. Oh, I'm the weird Al of our family. Okay.

In my house, there's no one better than me. Okay. Milk crystal, milk crystal, crystal and milk, drinking milk and crystal. See? You know, you can make a jingle of anything. Yes, you can and you should. So if that's baby talk, yes. And like they have, you know, a million nicknames and stuff like that. But you got to

Not a suit. A briefcase. He got like a briefcase. That's so sweet. And his lunch fits in it. The youngest one or the older one? Youngest. Oh, that's precious. So he's like, his lunch fits in his briefcase. Yeah, he's like, I love this. I love this. But it's really hard to open. I was like, it's heavy too. Briefcases make no sense. They're meant to hold paper. I know. Which is, who carries paper? So much paper. That's weird to think about. It's like, I like a briefcase though because it's like a little business suitcase. And I... Yeah. Okay. No. That's what it is. That's not.

suitcase for your briefs yeah like paper briefs right yes yeah yes wow wow breaking down words origins that's latin oh my god um something really just clicked for you something really clicked for me and then and then you opened briefcases we just had something right before briefcases and it was I was raring to go who holds who carries paper who carries paper I want to carry paper

That wasn't it. Maybe it was. A suitcase for briefs. Wait, who's carrying paper? Businessmen. I do want to carry paper. Oh, okay. Women don't do business. Women notoriously? No. Okay. I think a briefcase is obviously from a bygone era, right? Where we're just, all you do, you just got to carry your briefs on. Maybe you'll read them on the train. Maybe you'll read them at home. Maybe you won't. Who knows? Yeah.

But now we travel. And by travel, I mean I walked over here from my Airbnb with so much stuff all the time. I recently saw a woman get on a plane with only just a very small purse. And I thought that is- She's a plant. She's an air marshal. That is wealth. I thought this is wealth. There is nothing that you need to do.

There's nothing you need access to. The bags are probably being shipped down with the car. You probably sky-capped tipped. Sky-capped tipped. No. And I was like, that is enjoying your life, is not needing to jockey for overhead space or underspace. It is merely traveling through the airport with simply a small purse. That's my husband. Imagine. Don't you

Don't you think men travel? Like my husband just like has air AirPods and a phone. Yeah. Matthew, you know, Matthew cares, but he's, I guess he hasn't traveled with him in a long time. So I don't know.

No, that's an interesting point because part of me was like, well, is it a great life? Because no one is wealthy enough to be able to pay off airlines to work in their favor to get their luggage. But maybe you're so rich you just buy new stuff. You just buy new stuff. I was like, either. This woman is flying to somewhere where she's like, I already have all the things that I need. So I literally just need to use this as like a taxi cab.

But has that ever happened to you where your luggage is lost and you do have to go straight to a store and buy something for an event? Numerous times. Even if my luggage is not lost, I have forgotten something vital. All the outfits I wore, all the outfits I packed, they aren't even outfits, Kate. They don't make any sense. Nothing I packed. Yeah, yeah. When I pack, I have no idea who I am. I don't know what I'm doing when I get there. It's like the things I brought – what? What?

What is this? Right. Well, I always think Vacation Kate exists. Kate Chen. And I feel like she wears...

I don't like and I would never wear here. And I pack for her. But then I get there and I'm like, I don't wear any of this stuff. Who is she? Because you want to like use your wardrobe. Yeah. But I just want to be wearing the same thing. Yeah, that's really true. I think that like I don't. What are these? These are Target leggings. They're cute. I like the ribbing. Can I admit something? Yeah. So my sister and I were in the middle of trying to do this Dancing with the Stars dance that like this trend everyone's doing.

And we were trying last night, and this morning when I was getting dressed, I thought, well, I might as well put on something linkable so I can make money off of the time spent. How dark is that? I know. It's so bad, Nora. I know. I know. But it's like, that's a, we don't get a, I think it's, okay, it's dark to have to think that way or to find yourself thinking that way. Like I admitted to you when I was in the bathroom, I was like, oh yeah, I could.

I could post a video that's like, hey, behind the scene. What did you admit to me in the bathroom? Sorry. I admitted to you that in the bathroom, I thought behind the scene at Kate Kennedy's house, everything smells good. Like sometimes I like this is how I know I need to make content in my bathroom. I was going to make it in the bathroom. I was just going to say I've got a hot tip for Kate Kennedy's house. But then you would have seen a lot of it's like what was in the background of my bathroom. Oh, yeah. And I would have been like, yeah, because in the one down here, that's where I keep pregnancy tests. Rumor mill. Yeah. Yeah.

I know. I was actually going to post all the pregnancy tests and be like, what do you think this means? Or it's like all my white towels. I always wipe my eye makeup with recess abandon. Same. Okay. Same. I'm just always self-conscious that in the background there's something about my home or the way I live that people are going to think I'm disgusting. I am disgusting. I think I am too. No, your house smells so good. Every room smells different. They mask smells. My house doesn't do that. My candles, I've got some of the same candles. It's not the same. You've got warmer? You're a scent person.

designer. Do I have warmers? Yeah. Okay. I'm going to tell you something about candle warmers. Okay. I said, look at this thing. It's so cute. Caroline said, you don't need a candle warmer. What are you going to warm your candle? Light it like a grownup. Who's the number one? I had the exact conversation with Caroline. Who's the number one lover of candle warmers now? Caroline Moss. Caroline Moss. And this is where, this is the fracture in the relationship. She doesn't believe that we can influence too. Yeah. Guess what? Guess what?

Yeah. Guess what I get? Guess what? Guess what she likes now? The Beats Flex. I'm going to buy the Beats Flex like in two seconds. We love them. We love them. You got me to buy that chair. Oh, yeah. You have a better base than I. I don't have that cute base. I took that from another chair. Because mine didn't come on wheels and I wanted wheels. So I took apart another chair and put the wheels on it. That's great. You did a good job. I don't want wheels. It's so – I can't have wheels.

It's too much. Too much movement for me. I think. There's one extra variation. Do you sit crisscross applesauce? Okay, same. Yeah. I think that I have, I am in for a lot of orthopedic issues based on how I sit, but I don't like the feet. I like to be like comfortable. Same. My thinking pose is like one leg up. Yeah. This is, mostly I'm like this. Yeah. Okay, whenever I sit like that on Instagram, people are like, why are you bent in half? Oh, this is, it's so comfortable. Same. It's the best. It's the best way to sit. Yeah. Well,

Well, maybe we're both disgusting and we sit weird. We're disgusting weird sitters and that's what people say about us. Disgusting weird sitters. Is that the episode title? Oh, I was going to get your Oracle deck. It's on my desk. Oh, that's so nice. We're disgusting weird sitters. Okay.

Now I'm going to pick up the thread that you dropped nine years ago, which is recording people in public. Oh. Which is, I guess, legal, right? Like you don't have a right to, like technically, legally, you don't have a right to privacy when you are in a public space. Sure. But I don't think that anybody anticipated what that would mean with like technology, right? So I don't like when people...

post ring videos of like delivery people or like unless that delivery person consented to

you know, to having like this. Unless it's you sliding down the driveway. Unless it's me sliding down the driveway, which my own child recorded and laughed at. I just don't, you know, I'm like, I don't like that. And I don't like when people like, trust me, everybody has had horrible moments in public. I've seen people do banana stuff and every once in a while I've been like, should I record this for like public safety reasons? Right. You know, like, should I, should I just for like the, you know, like in case anything goes like absolutely nuts, but I'm not going to put that on TikTok. And like when

When people put those moments or like, I see this all the time where people are like, hey, if your husband is, you know, if your husband's on this plane and his name's Jared, he's flirting. He's cheating on you with a woman sitting next to him. And I'm like, one, is that how any woman wants to find something out? I wish I could do a collect data about how many people from those situations like used it or broke up or it led to something bad.

Because what I don't get about like TikTok, if you're not a creator, if you're not trying to do it for a career, like does your average everyday person use their TikTok account like to get clout? I don't know. Like what is – I don't really – whenever those are posted to accounts with like very little videos or back history, I'm like, what is this for? Yeah. What is it doing for you? Yeah. Share it with your friends. Yeah. With the gen pop? Yeah. Yeah.

But maybe it's that looking for that lightning in a bottle of like the – remember the couch girl? Yeah. I don't think that – I think that was a person posting to their friends. Yeah. That got – people got served it and like it took off. Where's couch girl though? I think she's still with him. She said we didn't understand. I know. Oh, honey. We understood. But if Matthew was on a plane flirting with Ashley Jennifer – I would literally be so proud of him. Really? I would be like, I –

I am so... He talked to a woman he didn't know? Really? Oh. I'd squash Greg like a bug. Oh. I'd be like, oh, buddy, that's so cool. Good for you. Good for you. And also, I think you could use that sort of self-esteem boost. I think it's good to have some harmless flirtations in your life. I think it's important. I don't know. This is where our roads diverge in a yellow wood because...

You have reverse imposter syndrome. Yeah. You have reverse body dysmorphia. Yes. And you walk into a room and think, everybody thinks I'm a smoke show, correct? Yeah. I walk into a room and I think I am- The best looking person. The best looking person in this room. Okay. That is beyond opposite day. I'm the opposite of all of those things. But then also I will so quickly fall into the pit of despair and be like, I am-

Something will challenge my self-image. Like I'll see a photo of myself and I'll be like, that's not true. That's not it. That's no, I'm actually, I don't look like that. Misinformation. Misinformation, disinformation, fake news, altered reality. No. And then, you know, like I have either like a lot of confidence in

work-wise or I have none. You know, like I would say, I would say it's, I hold myself back from texting you like, what am I doing with my life? Should I go be a postal worker instead? They do have good benefits. They have the best benefits and I love the uniform. And I think you could really spice up the morale. I love it.

I love the people at my post office so much. I go there. Oh, mine hate me because of the doormat days. Oh, yeah. But haven't they gotten over that? A lot of heavy items. Well, I don't think they remember me now. But I think it's just a – it's not a pleasant place for me to be. It's a lot of dark times at the post office for me. Yeah. Yeah. That would be an interesting job that –

Like, I do wonder sometimes if something kind of like repetitive hands on where you interact with people and you could maybe pleasantly surprise them by being pleasant. Yeah. If that would like kind of be really fun. Yeah. No one's expecting to have fun at the post office, the DMV. That would be interesting to have personality hires. Yeah. Not that people don't have personalities there, but like it's a job. Like you don't have to perform at your job. Yeah. But if you really like people. Yeah.

I think it could be a great job. That's my mailman. My mailman is like a delight. Really? Every time we see him, we're like, oh, we're so excited to see him. He's like, he's so happy. Oh my gosh. Yeah, he's great. He's great. I'm not friends with my mail person. Yeah, that's okay. That's okay. I just happen to see him a lot. I don't know why. Now that I think about it, he is at my house a little. Yeah, what?

Is this how we find out? I'm such a jealous person and I'm jealous that you're not jealous. Yeah, I'm not jealous anymore. You used to be though? Oh, yeah. That makes me feel better. I was jealous of everything. Okay, cool, cool, cool. I was so jealous of everything and then my husband died and I was like, yeah, who cares? Yeah.

Like really like. Why did you have to force perspective on me? But no, really like he got sick and then I was so jealous of, I was so jealous of his ex-girlfriend. She's so pretty. She's so pretty. Katie. So pretty. She's like a 6'1 Mandy Moore. So it's like, and bigger boobs than me. But you're a,

six one beautiful blonde woman is it i saw her and i was like i hate myself you're a six one blonde miley cyrus i wish she was so she's funny she's quick i've never put that together but when somebody said that about you i was like oh really you do wow i i receive it i received that yeah i receive it um it's because um and there's no offense but you know what i've been getting a lot lately tapping videos no no no no no no i've been getting britney mahomes

That's something. It's... And I say... So how do we approach this subject? I say... Also, people will... Okay, so this is again. People will send me something and be like, I thought this was you. And they will send me a picture of a person that I don't think is pretty. And I'm like...

That's what I was about to dive into. Do we admit what I think everybody feels, which is you are beautiful no matter what they say. Words can't bring you down, sure. But when somebody tells you you look like somebody that you don't personally find attractive, it brings you down. And it's not personal to the person because they're pretty in their own way. It's just that you didn't think you looked like that in your throne. 100%. Yeah, yeah. I'm...

in my eye, I already know what I look like. And so I'm like, no. Brittany Mahomes is an interesting one where she represents a lot of things to different people and you hear all sorts of things about her. And at the end of the day, she's kind of like just doing the thing where you get extensions. Yeah. And you really like kind of play up the like, OK, I explain this growing up.

As a blonde person or that tried to stay blonde. There comes a point where I feel like done up. I look pageanty. Yes. And I don't want to look like someone who looks pageanty because I'm trying to not do that. And I feel like she kind of does have the same done up. Yes. Yes. For some people, but not your vibe. Yes. But I think, but I think like in my.

early. I did go through. I think everybody did in 2016, 17. Oh, yeah. It was the heavy glam. I definitely did that. Dry bar. I was one blowout away from a Gretchen Christine. I am her. She is me. One false lash on my head. I had eyelash extensions. I had, yeah. I was contoured to the max. Faking. To the max. So much. So, yeah. I can...

Like, I get it. And there is, like, I have a certain level of, like, admiration for some level of artifice, too. I really do like it. Yeah. You know? Like, I love Lisa Barlow getting a full glam on Salt Lake City. She's my everything. I love her, too. And I can't – I look for – actively look for reasons to interpret –

objectively terrible thing she does to explain away her behavior. And I was relieved on this past episode where they had that gorgeous conversation with Bronwyn. That blew me. That was a beautiful, unedited, long conversation. Bravo doesn't usually put full. Yeah. Anyways, I was like, oh, thank God Lisa Barlow's crying. She has empathy. Like I felt relieved that tears came from her eyes because sometimes I'm like,

Like you're running every bridge with every friend. Yeah. And how Meredith Marks forgave you for hot mic moment. If I overheard you being like, you fucked every guy in New York, I think our friendship might be different. Kate. Why? Everyone says that about me. Everyone says that about you when they go to the bathroom and they're just blowing off steam. I was like, Bravo did her so dirty with that though. They

They really did. They really did. I don't have things that mean to say about. If I was caught on a hot mic mad about you, I couldn't think of things that mean to say. Like that tall drink of water through Miley Cyrus' mouth and her Brittany Mahomes eyelashes. Face?

Like, what do I say? Like, she said the cruelest, meanest shit. I know. And your whole family who poses. It wasn't – I was like, if somebody acted like that was a fluke and accident, I was mad. I'd be like, yeah, but you still dug the words up. Yeah. Where'd they come from? They came from somewhere. They came from somewhere. You had a word bank. Which I also wonder, though, how much of, like, what we didn't see about her and Meredith's relationship, too. Because Meredith is such a good, I don't know, like –

She just slips and slides through stuff. She's sneaky. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's kind of like, well, now we do know that you fucked half New York because why would she arbitrarily say that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And your marriage was an open marriage and that's fine. Did we know? Is that confirmed? I think that, I mean, she said they redid their prenup.

Whatever happened to their podcast? I don't know. Everyone thinks they can do what we do. Yeah. You can't. Not everyone can. Not everyone can. You can start a line of bath bombs. Also, they would record it at a kitchen table. Ugh, never. I was like, what is going on here? What is going on? No, a kitchen table is last resort. Last resort. Yeah. For a lot of people.

like environment vibes. Yeah. You never see people in like highly produced podcasts sitting at the table. No, not at a kitchen table. No, no, no, no, you won't. It's a lot of sound bouncing. It's very cold sounding. You don't want that. You don't want that. Um,

Meredith Marks, a banged half New York, Lisa Barlow. I will also find anything. Have we get there? I can't remember other than apologizing. Oh, we love artifice. Oh, I do. And I love, I love, I love a full glam. I love all of that. I love Whitney looking. Absolutely. Oh,

Oh, yeah. I love her. Whitney. Oh, well, I was thinking Whitney's Secret Lives of Mormon Wives and how she changed her hair every scene and so did her husband. Oh, yeah. But do you I hope you hear me quote you all the time. I quoted you in my book. I quote you on every podcast episode and every time I do a ritual ad. And every time I hear my name on your podcast, I go, oh, I'll say this behind a paywall. I need to make money.

Yeah. I feel weird selling anti-aging things. I feel awkward about it. Yeah. But I also am a person that wants to anti-age. Yeah. And in your book, when you said that brilliant line about not wanting... I always botch it. It's like, I...

like to age as a gift, but I don't want to look at type of thing. And I'm like, that's exactly the dichotomy of how I feel and that it feels less honest to avoid the anti-aging stuff and pretend like I'm not interested. I'm not trying to trick anyone into thinking I'm 20. I don't want to look 20. I just want to hold on to what I look like in my mind, whether or not that's accurate for like

I don't know. Like as long as possible. I don't know. It's complicated. I'm chasing my peak. Yes. In my head, I haven't reached it yet. No, I haven't either. Yeah. Of course not. No. God, no. No, no, no, no. It's only going to go up. It's only going up. It's only going up along with everything else. Okay? Oh, yeah. Everything else. The best is yet to come. And yeah. Do you really think we could get hotter? Yeah. Okay. I think I am hotter now than I was when I was 21. I was not that cute when I was 21. I... It's...

Depends how you define hot. From the male gaze, I'm better looking from the female gaze now and way less from the male gaze.

Possibly same. You know what I mean? Yeah. Because I think we now base like our style and our taste on what we see other women do that we like. And I'm not like soliciting male attention, but I used to actively solicit male attention. 100% same. Yeah. Because they cared how straight my hair was. So I don't know what I'm saying. I don't actually, I think I thought I was pursuing it. Yeah. But I was just, yeah, really tan, would show my boobs more. Yes. And had bleach blonde hair. Yeah. But do they like that or did we just assume they did? I think we just assumed they liked it. I don't think anybody has ever, I don't think any man has ever really cared that much.

Yeah. It's almost the lore of gentlemen prefer blondes. Yeah. Which is fucked up, by the way. Yeah. Also, I do think that mentality encouraged me to kind of hide behind my hair. You know when you have like, have you been blonde most your life? Same. And I feel like I. But yet, am I?

I mean, look at me. You know, am I, am I? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Compared to your yellow vest. I know. Which also like, again, it's a hard color because now the hair looks yellow. Wait, why does that look mustard on screen? I know. I know. It's so much brighter in person. It's really bright and it's like a good bright yellow in person, but not on screen. You should have coordinated outfits. I know. But I didn't even coordinate outfits with myself.

I barely coordinated an outfit. You didn't coordinate that vest with that shirt. I did not. I didn't coordinate. I barely put together an outfit. It was so bad. I think you look so cute. Thank you. I don't feel. What was the thing you wanted to thread that I then got you off track again? I don't remember. No, it was important to you. Oh, filming people in public. There we go. Did we get through it? No.

I don't even know how we got off course, but you feel strongly against it. Oh, you said you were a jealous person and then we started talking about how hot Katie was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then... Oh, what's... Yeah. Can you show me Katie later? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

She's so pretty. So I cemented in my brain as a deep dive I did into my husband's Facebook right after I met him. And what was so cool about Facebook at the time in the early 2010s is people didn't know to make stuff private. I don't even think we had privacy preferences. So I excavated his entire relationship history for like a good night activity. And without that, I wouldn't know what these people look like. And I don't know if I'm better off for it.

Sometimes I do wonder where they are and if they know that his wife is a mid-level podcaster. Oh, I think they know. Oh, I think they know. Okay. I think they know. My friend asked me to emcee my high school reunion and you tell me, don't you think it is so corny to be like the person from my high school that has this job and I also like – it's a little on the nose for me to emcee the event?

I think you should emcee the event. I think it's a great fit for you. I don't know. Okay. I mean, she never posts because she's cool. Oh, she has a fulfilling life outside of the internet? She's second from the left. I mean, imagine. Oh, yeah. She's a toothy brunette. Yeah. She's so pretty. Every guy married to a tall blonde gal actually wants a short toothy brunette. But she's tall. She's taller than me. Oh, she's tall. And she played college volleyball. I didn't play college volleyball. That's hot. I was like –

You played high school only? Yeah. And then I met her and I was like, I get it. I get it. I get it. And then, yeah, and I'm like, I don't know. Everyone dies and nothing matters. Like, you know? Yeah. And – Yeah. Yeah. But I was never – I wasn't jealous. Like, Erin always had, like, work crushes. Lisa, you know who you are. Annie. I have a crush on Annie. Everyone has a crush on Annie. Yeah. And, like –

I like always liked that. Like he had like a little work crush because, you know. It almost makes it less threatening that it's out in the open. Yeah. And like, and you know, you just like get in the car and be like, so, you know, like, well, Annie said this. I'm like, I know Annie's the best. And then, you know, like I've always had like little like flirtations and like crushes. I don't really have one right now.

I haven't flirted with somebody in 20 years. Oh, God. You have to do it. People don't flirt with me. I'm not a person that – Really? No. People don't flirt. And people in college used to kind of make fun of me for how not flirtatious I was, which still bothers me because I kind of be like, oh. It's almost like somebody tells you who you are and you believe it. Yeah. It almost made me feel like ill-equipped around men because my friends would be like, you're a bad flirt.

But I think it's because I lead more with like quirkiness and fun facts than with my body. Oh my God, no, same, same. I couldn't even get it out. I'm your size as a man most of the time. You know, I'm like, we're peers. Okay. No, that's true. Physical comedy. Yeah. Feats of strength. Yeah, yeah. Like those are- Smash a watermelon, Gallagher. And I probably lead with knock-knock jokes or fun facts. I more so, I'm just like-

Hey, bud. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that I don't I this is where the purity culture piece things in. I really do theorize that I learned that I just being a woman meant I was such a temptress. I wanted to do everything in my power. So the person I was talking to knew I wasn't tempting them and trying to make my Christian brother stumble. Yeah. So I don't think I ever learned how to flirt. OK. Were you raised Catholic, though?

My mom and my mom's whole family is Irish Catholic Midwestern. Okay. My dad was Southern Baptist. They met in the middle, Methodist. But then I got out. Catholics are such snobs. We are. We're so, it's so weird. I never think about the fact that I'm on camera. It's so weird to have a superiority complex. Yeah. About your religion. Which is so, my sister and I talked about that. Tell me how elite and well-run your organization is in modern times. The things that my parents made me feel superior over. Being left-handed.

I didn't even know that about you. That's my second personality trait. I had no idea. Okay. Being tall. Being Catholic and for some reason living in the city of Minneapolis. My parents looked down on anyone who lived in the suburbs. And so we were superior because we lived in the city of Minneapolis. Mean streets. Mean streets. It's very suburban. I don't know how to explain. So you grew up in like a townhouse, row house, like city? No. No.

Building in a single family home with a yard in a city. Yes. Like this home. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. But I actually would feel like my kids were cool here because if they wanted to play basketball, it would have to be in the alley with the rats. Yes. Which adds an edge to your existence. We had alleys. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I grew up...

with an alley. And, um, yeah, but I'm like, yeah, why do I feel superior about like Catholicism? You don't even practice it. And you just, I don't even, I just sculpted Methodist as I don't know anything about it. No, just something about the name. I'm like so triggered because the way that, okay. So people are very confused about my religious background because, um,

We went to a Methodist church as a family, but then when I got one youth groups and ropes courses and pizza parties started, I went into these like evangelical Southern Baptist or like assembly of God mega churches. But then when I got out of that as an adult, I mostly go to mass with my mom. So I've had experience in like a lot of different churches and I got married in Catholic church. So I got put through the ringer by the archdiocese of Chicago and everyone involved.

Who made – who went out of their goddamn way to make sure I knew how lucky I was to be marrying a Catholic boy. And they put me – I had to bring three – I don't even – to have this many friends. Yeah. I had to bring three friends on a weekday during work hours to sign an affidavit that I was like a good enough person to marry a Catholic. That's why. I didn't even do that. And I was just like, what are we doing? Yeah.

You're losing people by the dozens. Have you seen Spotlight? Like, are we just pretending like you're a respectable organization? I mean, no offense to the Catholics. No, I know, I know. Here's the thing. I love tradition and I got married in a Catholic church. Like, I like the tradition, the holidays, and the familial elements of religion. I just hate a lot of the practices and exclusionary parts. Yeah. And I don't know where that leaves me. And I don't mean to talk shit because my mom is still a devout Catholic. But I will say they are –

For a religion based on, you're tired, you're poor, you're hungry, Jesus...

What would Jesus do is not be Catholic because it is so exclusive. It is very exclusive. It's very exclusive. And I just, you know. Yeah. But you have that complex still buried in you. And that's going to be, I guess, my hot mic moment will be that tall, blonde, Miley Cyrus mouth, Brittany Holmes looking Catholic. Yeah. Left-handed. Now I have six things. Think she's so good. Think she's so superior because she's going to do the seven sacraments. I don't even know if there might be. I don't resonate with the seven sacraments.

Guess what? I don't either. I don't either. I don't either. That's just boring. It is. It's so boring. I'm so sorry. I'm so bored. I'm so sorry. We should probably steer this out of religion quick. But also, I think everybody can agree on that. My mom's like, it's very meditative. And I'm like, is it? It's ritualistic. My mom's like, the beauty is that anywhere you go in the world, it's the same. It's the same. Yeah. But I'm also like,

Must be nice to travel that much. Like who's got how many churches? I guess you do go to a lot of churches when you're traveling. Yeah. But yeah, it's I'm going to get over the scoffing at the Methodist because I'm not really a proud Methodist. But yeah, I met a new side of you today. Yeah, I know. And I don't know why. I don't know why. My dad would like look down on the Lutherans.

He was like, Lutherans. But like, it's like, without Martin Luther, would we have had the Protestant Reformation? We'd still be, no. And it's also like, well, what do they need to reform? Okay, so you were buying your way into heaven. Okay, so there was a little grease in the palm. Indulgences. Indulgences. I loved indulgences. I love indulgences.

If I could buy my way to heaven, I would raise hell my whole life and pony up at the end. For all my friends. One for around for all my friends. An indulgence for all of my friends. Yeah. Yes, I know. Karma takes all my friends to the summit is basically what that is. It was about indulgences. That was Catholic lore.

Indulgence, as a word, has the same energy as mitochondria being the powerhouse of the cell. It's like a specific thing I remember from a subject I remember hardly anything about where I thought, I like that. I like that. I remember it being presented as like, can you believe this? And I was like, is that still a fail? No. Can I still get an indulgence? Yeah, I should look into this because it's like,

The more you pay, the more – like how convenient, the more sin you're absolved of. Yeah. So if you're poor and you messed up, you're screwed. Yeah. I'm Nora McInerney, and you just heard an excerpt from our latest podcast episode. You can get the full episode, our entire back catalog, and two new episodes a month through Apple Plus or on our Patreon, which is linked in the show description.

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