Questions raised over potential two-way Harbour toll
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The Roads Minister, he's in charge of it all. John Graham's the line for us. Minister, thanks for your time. Good afternoon, Chris. When will we get an answer as to the government's response to the review?

yeah look we'll formally respond in the coming months but we've given some big indications today about where we're starting from we do want to reform tolls in sydney if you think that tolls are too expensive that sydney's too congested as less productive as a city than it could be now wait for the decades to come this is a problem that we have to tackle

uh and we're determined to do that alan fells has set out to review absolutely this will be difficult it also underlines the fact it's absolutely necessary for the city we can't leave these settings as they are this patchwork of tolls for more than three decades

But how do you go about it? So two-way tolls on the Harbour Bridge and the Eastern Distributor. You're putting a toll on what is effectively a free section of road. Now, the Labor Party, for a long, long period of time, Minister, has said that that's abhorrent.

Yeah, well, this is what the report found. Two reports now, led by Alan Fels, have found this. It's not possible to have one system across the city when it comes to the city's tolling network if you stick to the way the old system works. And here's how it works. If you live in the west of the city, you pay tolls in two directions and your tolls go up every quarter or every year. But if you're crossing the harbour,

If you're crossing the harbour via the bridge or the tunnel, your tolls are in one direction and they didn't go up for more than a decade. Allen Fels has made the point strongly in both these reports. If you're moving to one system across the city, everyone's got to pay their share here. Everyone's got to bear the burden. We can't have one system and not change it. But how many times has the harbour bridge been paid off? In the Fed Income Department, how many times has the harbour bridge been paid off?

Yeah, look, that's an absolutely fair point and that's why the tolls were removed at one point in one direction. However, Fels is making a point here. We can't drop prices in the west or from the central coast or the Illawarra and that's what he's proposing here, dropping toll prices for long distance commuters, the sort of drivers who the Premier promised before the election we'll be targeting assistance to. We can't do that if

if everyone's not lifting their part of the share here. Yeah, but people crossing the Harbour Bridge, Minister, it's a fallacy what you're saying to me because people crossing the Harbour Bridge have paid that bridge off a couple of times over. Likewise with the Harbour Tunnel, people using NorthConnex or parts of WestConnex with the M4 East, it's only been open for a few years. Yeah, this absolutely wouldn't be about paying off the Harbour Bridge, you're right. It has been paid off.

It would if we were going to have one system, and it did mean two-way tolling right across the network. Where would that money go? It would go to dropping toll prices for long-distance commuters. That's true, by the way, if you're coming from the west into the city or if you're going from the city out to the west. If you're a health worker heading out to Westmead, driving out, paying tolls along that route and then back into the city later, those long-distance commuters, often people who don't have

options for public transport there who were trying to get assistance. Again, if I live in Vaucluse or Rose Bay or Mossman, and you know, I know no one feels sorry for people who live in that neck of the woods, they still paid for roads like North Connects, the M4 East, the Roselle Interchange, the M8, that they will never use.

Yeah, well, the people driving on the... Because your argument is that people who cross the Harbour Bridge, well, they've got to put their hands in their pocket for two-way tolls to help those who live in the western part of the city or the central coast using North Connex on roads that they use. But ultimately, through our taxes, we've already paid for parts of West Connex. We sold off a state asset to do it.

Yeah, well, here's what the report finds. Firstly, that it'd be fairer to do it that way, that everyone should contribute. Secondly, that it's the money that comes from that having one system that would allow us to drop prices in the West. If you can't have one system, it becomes very hard to reform the toll system. But thirdly, this reason, and Alan Fels has talked about this today,

As the Western Harbour Tunnel opens, and the plan from the former government had always been to toll that in two directions, they have two-way tolling on the Western Harbour Tunnel and one-way tolling on the Harbour Bridge and the Harbour Tunnel.

is a recipe for traffic chaos. I buy that. And that is one of the concerns that certainly I've been briefed on from a transport point of view. It's one of the concerns that's weighed heavily on Alan Fels as he's looked at the system. Can you tell me what the infrastructure charges are? So Alan Fels is proposing an infrastructure charge for tolls on the Harbour Bridge and some tunnels. What are they?

Yeah, well, the system that Fels and Dr Cousins have spelt out really looks at allocating a declining distance model, that is, the further you drive, the lower your toll rate drops, but also recognises the fact that we're paying here for some significant bits of infrastructure, tunnels, for example, and puts a slightly higher charge on those things. One of the things that allows is prices not to move too far

from where they are at the moment. It's a complicated model, but it's the model that is being recommended to us by these independent reviewers to say, here's the way you could tip the system. What's Transurban saying? How are you going to negotiate with them? Doesn't it make more sense just to go to Transurban, sit down with the CEO and go, look, do you want the Western Harbour Tunnel? It's yours for 50 years on the proviso you do X, Y and Z on ensuring that our tolling system is uniform across the city.

They used to carry it in the seat. It's not just the government or the reviewers saying toll reform is possible. One of the things that's happened since the interim report is the toll road operators, the toll road owners, have written in saying they also believe reform is possible. They believe it would be possible to sit down and negotiate that

by the end of the year in principle. That's an invitation we're open to taking up. We do want to talk this through, but it's taken this couple of reports, setting out a model here for how this could happen to really bring about this serious discussion. That's why I'm really grateful for the work that Alan Fels has done.

Aren't you better off just doing that, though? Just going to Transurban saying you're after long-term returns, 2%, 3%, or whatever it is for the pension funds and everyone else that's invested in Transurban. We've got the Western Harbour Tunnel coming online. Here it is for 50 years, all yours, on the proviso you do. The M4, the M8, the M7, everything else, drop the prices on them.

Chris, we're very open to that direct discussion and we'll set up a process to do that shortly. It's not complicated. Part of the goal here is to bring this discussion out of the back rooms. Governments and private toll operators have done these deals behind closed doors and the public hasn't known what's going on. That's part of the reason we've asked for help from Alan Fels. No one's in any doubt about whose side Alan Fels is on. He's on the side of the consumer, on the side of the motorist and

And that's the perspective we want this discussion to happen around. So there will be direct discussions. I hope that they commence shortly, given the timelines we're now talking about. But this report sets us up to be able to have those, but have them in the public interest. So you want to respond to this in the next couple of months, and you're hoping you can nail something with Transurban by Christmas?

Yeah, the view that's been put to us by these toll road owners is if we sit down and talk this through, based on where the report has started to head, it may be possible to have a principal agreement by the end of the year. Look, that would certainly be good news from a public point of view. From a driver's point of view, that would

That'd be very welcome. We'll take part in those discussions in a really genuine way. Okay. And just before I let you go, the independent pricing arbiter, just like IPART, the idea is you set up a government body effectively to set the prices of tolls, given that they're

already been agreed on in contracts and we've spent a lot of the money that has been handed over by Transurban and in some instances too super funds have invested in parts of WestConnex how do you think that an independent pricing arbiter would work in those conditions?

Yeah, well, look, the good news here is not only Alan Fels has come to this conclusion. The private toll rate operators, owners, including the super funds, have written in to the review saying they're open to changes in the system. They want to make sure their contracts are respected. That's fair enough. That's a reasonable requirement.

But everyone here is open to changes, and that could be very good news for drivers. All right, good luck with it. It's not going to be an easy path forward, but I think that the people of Sydney certainly demand some change, albeit probably not a two-way toll on the Harbour Bridge. Good luck with it. Thanks, Chris. That's the Roads Minister, John Graham.