Daily Harvest rolls out meals designed for people on Ozempic
50:40 Share

I'm Yasmin Gagne. I'm Josh Christensen. And this is Most Innovative Companies. On today's episode, Daily Harvest is introducing a new collection of meals tailor-made for people on Ozempic. Those that are interested or in need of taking these meds recognize the deep connection between the foods they eat and goals they're seeking.

Sharp Entertainment CEO Matt Sharp tells me how many no's he got from networks. So we took it back out, took it back to all the places, and we said we cracked it, great news. Rejected. Again. Then we wrap up the show with keeping tabs. If that's nominated for an Oscar, then the Bowser song should be nominated that was in the Mario movie. Like, come on. But first, here's a new segment we are calling The Download. The Download

The news you need to know this week in the world of business innovation. Reddit is planning its IPO for this March, which would be the first IPO of a major social media company since Pinterest debuted in 2019. It also would come as Reddit and its peers face stiff competition for advertising dollars from the likes of TikTok and Facebook.

Upvote that. Upvote. U.S. Senator Bernie Sanders and a group of Democratic lawmakers are pushing to raise taxes for companies that pay their chief executives at least 50 times more than their typical worker's salary. These millionaires and billionaires taking advantage of the working people.

That's my Bernie. Why is he Southern? Anyway, they said the bill could generate $150 billion in revenue over 10 years, but it'll need 60 votes to clear the Senate. And I'm sure Nancy Pelosi is trying to stop things on the Democratic side. Yeah.

It also likely faces an uphill battle in the Republican-controlled House of Representatives. Unlikely to happen, in my opinion. But anyways, let's move on to some other billionaires who definitely don't want this to happen. Former Goldman Sachs trader Jan Schrammick, who is spearheading a group of said billionaires trying to build a new city in California, the most...

cursed urban planning project in the history of mankind. What was that Google company that did smart cities? This is Sidewalk Labs, are you sure? We call this the Google Glass of cities. Anyways, they unveiled the first look at their construction proposal, which is going to go up for a vote in Solano County this November. The proposal

allegedly is for a walkable, affordable city in Northern California that ceramics company California Forever has spent about $900 million on so far buying up farmland. Damn, that's a lot of money. It's also never going to happen. Nope. Sheryl Sandberg is leaning out of Facebook. Had to do it to you.

The executive who helped transform Facebook from a tech startup into a digital advertising empire will step down from the board of Meta, Facebook's parent company. And finally, Oscar nominations are in. Oppenheimer leads with 13 nominations, including Best Picture and Best Director for Christopher Nolan. And Barbie, which came out alongside Oppenheimer, the famous Barbenheimer Summer, earned eight nominations, including Best Picture, but

But Greta Gerwig was left out for best director. The Oscar ceremony will be held on March 10th. And as much as I would like people who are not white dudes to win, I'm still rooting for the holdovers in many categories. I do love Paul Giamatti. And that's the download. For more on the latest stories in the world of business and innovation, go to FastCompany.com or follow the links in our show notes.

Josh, have you ever used a meal prep service? I have, actually. For a very short amount of time, I used...

Oh, crap. I'm forgetting the name of it right now. But it was one of those, the ones that sent the pre-cooked meals, not the blue apron where you had to make it because I didn't want to have to make stuff. I need really low effort for that, which is weird because I love to cook. So I didn't want to, I think that's the real reason is I didn't want to get the blue aprons because I was like, I could do a better recipe than this, which is probably just hubris.

But I stopped doing a box meal service because my wife Liz decided that she was vehemently against them for no real reason besides just taking a hard opinion, which I appreciate because I take hard opinions for just the bit all the time. Strong take. Strong take. That's fine. So we stopped. My first year out of college, I was on this fellowship program.

This is like a classic entry-level journalism job. I paid $25,000 a year. Nice. So I had a second job tutoring, but I was still like, I just had no money. And Blue Apron ran this promotion where you could like get a free box of meals. And so I used to create tons of fake email addresses and get boxes sent to my office, my apartment, my friend's apartment, and then my roommates did it. That scam actually worked out. And I got to say, those meals were really good. Yeah.

I don't mind a meal service. And frankly, as a podcaster, I should really get behind these meal services because they are single-handedly funding the podcast industry. Blue Apron, if you want to sponsor us, not bad. Get at us. Your food is not bad. This is what we'll say in our host rates. Blue Apron, pretty good to scam. Yeah. But we would never scam our guest, Daily Harvest.

The company is rolling out a new food collection specifically designed for people who are on weight loss medications. And here to help me learn more about that is Daily Harvest president, Ricky Silver. Hey, Ricky. Hey, how's it going? So Daily Harvest has a January jumpstart program, and this year it includes GLP-1 focused meal plans.

I'm curious, you know, when did you start seeing demand for this kind of service? Is this something that was really coming from your customers? Folks are looking for solutions, convenience solutions in particular, to help them achieve health goals all throughout the time of the year, but particularly in January. And we've also seen the onset of, you know, adoption of these weight loss modifications and the GLP-1 category in particular, which

And I think what's been really interesting to observe is there's been a lot of conversations around the impact this may have on the food industry. But the research continues to show is that those that are interested or in need of taking these meds

recognize the deep connection between the foods they eat and the goals they're seeking. In fact, there's been some research that shows very definitively that folks that are looking to take these medications recognize that it likely means they will be eating more fruits and vegetables, things that are higher in fiber, healthier for them in general, and overall reducing their consumption of

other, you know, call it the not so great for you items, the confectionary foods and sugary drinks. And so as Daily Harvest, we are always looking to stay in touch with what the consumer is looking for and help them along their journey. And given we are built on those fruits and vegetables, we felt it was a great opportunity for us to make something available to consumers looking for a solution like this.

So correct me if I'm wrong, it sounds like, you know, maybe some of your existing customers asked for it, but you're also trying to gain some new customers. This sounds to me based on that description like a customer acquisition play.

Yeah, I would say it's less for us about simply acquiring a customer, but really offering solutions to individuals at different parts of their lives for different purposes. And so this happens to be a moment when GLP-1 is getting a lot of attention, but it's science that is emerging from a public standpoint, but there's a lot of research that drove it to its adoption at this stage.

And I think that we want to be a part of the overall solution. You know, Daily Harvest was founded off of a belief system that you can change the way people eat and at the same time change the way food is grown. Fruits and vegetables are objectively good for you.

For a long time, I would say in this country in particular, we could argue that the sort of medical and healthcare industry and the food industry have really been looked at as two distinct entities. But as we all know, emerging science and really just, I think, emerging awareness recognizes that many of the health outcomes that

We see in this country that are not ideal and sort of leading to challenges are directly related to the foods that people are eating. And so we've always seen ourselves as a real part of the solution. And in this case, it's no different than the way we look at finding pre-configured boxes that allow someone to choose a Whole30 diet, for example.

Fruits and vegetables may be good for you objectively, but a cheeseburger is really good for the soul, in my opinion. A hundred percent. And there's room for both. There's room for both, Josh. I am curious, you know, I know you gave us a sort of spiel about why it's good to eat fruits and vegetables. Seems fairly obvious. But when you're...

When you're talking about designing this plan for people on GLP-1s and his background, I spoke to a company called Beard to Health that is a nutrition company focused on basically getting people off GLP-1s. And to be honest with you, a lot of their meal plans were just cutting carbs and eating a lot of protein. Tell me a little bit about your approach. For us, we think about what is needed from a diet perspective if you're on medication like this. And we've worked with our in-house dietician to really curate a collection that would assist

those on this weight loss journey, particularly as it relates to this new class of drugs. And so this collection of food is pre-portioned calorie conscious meals. They're high in fiber, low in saturated fat, free of cholesterol and no added sugars. And it's over a range of day part solutions. So Daily Harvest, we offer

smoothies and soups and different offerings that help you solve for your cravings and your needs throughout the day. But overall, the theme that we leaned into here is things that would complement the GLP-1 use and make it easier to get those nutrient-packed and nutrient-dense foods when we know sort of the cravings and the sort of overall calorie intake is going to be on the lower end.

How do your offerings for people on GLP-1s differ from, you know, your pre-existing offerings? Is it just basically lower calorie or, you know, how do you think about that? That's really one of the most incredible things about Daily Harvest from the get-go. We've been really thoughtful about building a range of offerings that meet both, you

range of flavor preferences and dietary needs. And so these were not foods that we specifically developed just for GLP-1. It just so happens to be that our collection is diverse enough that we could work with our in-house dietician to really curate the right collection. So it's like a curation and marketing exercise, almost more than a fully new plan. Yeah. And that's the benefit of being built on fruits and vegetables from the get-go is that

you know, we have a range of solutions that meet the needs of a range of health goals. And I think we see that come through in the way our customers interact with us. I wrote a feature a while ago about Instacart and the company at the time and still now has a new sort of

business arm Instacart Health where they hope to kind of work with doctors and get maybe some groceries covered. I'm curious whether you see Daily Harvest being part of the sort of overall healthcare system or you think you may be able to make money off of that kind of plan. Yeah, we actually just announced not to, uh,

long ago that we've now are, you're able to purchase Daily Harvest through your FSA. And I think that is not just for Daily Harvest, but an emerging reality. I mentioned that earlier, that this sort of interconnection between the healthcare industry and the food industry. And I actually see it as a huge win for people in general. On a personal anecdote, I grew up playing ice hockey. And I remember being 12 years old and having that hockey coach

really helped me recognize that the things I was eating was directly leading to the way I was feeling during the game and after the game. And it sounds silly, but I just don't think as a culture, as a society, that's been front and center for as many as it should be. And then, of course,

the sort of onset and sort of availability of highly processed foods further challenges that. And so again, while the sort of theme of this curation is really around GLP-1, we have a range of curated item offerings that help solve for other challenges as well. You know, maybe you've just been recently diagnosed with diabetes. We can help you find a solution that helps you form a habit around delicious and convenient food. How big of a portion do you see sort of

FSA coverage being when you think of Daily Harvest's whole business? So I think it will evolve because candidly, it's a new dynamic that's emerging. I think there are businesses that are forming to help sort of connect the dots between the consumer and the brands.

Candidly, we don't look at that area as so much as a target for us that it should be, you know, X percent or Y percent. I think we really feel like it's our job to advocate for the consumer by offering the right food and then being open to flexible and new purchasing models that allow people to have access in ways they maybe previously wouldn't.

Something that I think daily harvest really gets to our problem in the States, as you said, obviously our diets are a mess, but a lot of people also live in food deserts. Daily harvest can kind of help with those problems when people may not have as much access to healthy food. I'm curious when you look at your consumers and the need they're trying to fill with daily harvest, like what are the biggest pain points for people?

Everyone wants to eat healthier, you know, and we see ourselves as our role is, you know, removing the friction from the intent of eating healthier and the actual action of doing so. It's part of the reason why we've expanded our collection set to solve problems across different day parts, right? So making sure you can get your healthy start with breakfast. At the same time, also, you know, ensuring we've got a range of offerings to help you get that

healthy dinner on the table when you don't have a ton of time. I would say the through line through it all is one, the chef crafted is for real. Our food is delicious. And I really find what our team is able to do as a former personal chef myself, just astounding and inspiring given the quality of that flavor profile that they develop, but also that it is really convenient.

And I think the range of ingredients we offer, the range of recipes and how it comes through in a way that allows you to be eating that delicious food in minutes is, I think, a big part of our solution. What we've noticed is

consumers will find their way into Daily Harvest. Maybe they try a smoothie to start, and then they form a habit around that breakfast occasion and then want to give us a shot for lunch or dinner. And that sort of range of offerings allows us a number of different entry points for people to find us and people to stick around. The other exciting thing is we're now in grocery stores for the first time. In 2023, we launched

And just under 1200 stores. And so part of being able to form habits with our consumers is also meeting them where they are. And while the ability to deliver direct to consumer is a huge benefit in some ways, also, there are many folks that will always want to buy their food in grocery stores. And so we've got to meet them where they are.

That makes a lot of sense. You know, it's funny. I love the way that you called breakfast a breakfast occasion. I think I'm going to steal that one. Just think about it. You wake up every morning and you treat it like an occasion. You're going to enjoy your breakfast even more. I thought you meant as an occasion on most people forget to eat breakfast like I do. Mostly running to work, not having a breakfast. So on occasion, I have breakfast. So that makes more sense for my life. Yeah.

I feel seen on that one for sure.

My last question for you is how you see the food industry writ large changing. You know, you mentioned earlier, and I know we've seen in a lot of earnings like Walmart or other big stores sort of trying to figure out a way to cater to people on GLP-1s. Other companies are also looking to make kind of low sugar snacks or lower calorie snacks for them as well. Do you think that's a real threat? Like, do you, you know, do you see this as like something that's actually going to lead to a seismic shift in our grocery store aisles?

Look, I think anytime science emerges, it takes real time for the impact of it to be seen in real terms. And I think there's a lot of prognostication that we like to do as a society about what the impact could be.

I think it is true that as more and more consumers end up taking medication like this or continue to look for alternative solutions to live healthier lives, the food industry has to keep up. And I think maybe in the past, the

the food industry has been more of a driver of consumer behavior. I actually think we will benefit if we see the food industry being more of a responder to consumer behavior. And I think that's something that Daily Harvest has certainly attempted to lead on, right, rather than

simply making it cheaper, more processed and longer shelf life, really leaning into what we know to be true, which is whole fruits, vegetables, well-grown organic commodities like an avocado and a banana are the way to generate the healthiest outcomes. And I think that hopefully others will continue to follow suit. Exactly what influence it will have on the industry is yet to be seen, but I think it absolutely will have some impact.

impact. I do want to follow up on that a little bit in terms of responding to consumer trends. I think obviously following diet trends tend to pop up a lot and I think they've gotten a little more grounded in science recently than in the 90s certainly. But how much are you giving thought to okay when something pops up whether it's keto, whether it's Whole30, I'm trying to think of some of the other trends there. How much are you thinking about okay what is our kind of ethical

responsibility to saying, okay, maybe this isn't something that we want to promote as much as it may provide a new consumer base. A lot of maybe what's happened in the past is diets and trends around diets forming around sort of restriction, right? Do not eat that or do not eat this.

I think what has been emerging more and more is a balanced approach, right, around how do you gain the nutrients you need to be successful and to live healthier. And I think the macro trend is one towards less processed, more whole, more plant-based. And so, you know, I think we see it more as a company and certainly I can say as an individual company.

as a continued opportunity for us to be a resource, be a solution for a range of needs, as opposed to chasing individual trends. And I think that's what happens when you're, like I said from the beginning, built on organic fruits and vegetables, you actually can be a solution for a range of health outcomes. That's great. Well, thank you so much, Ricky, for taking the time to chat with us. Thanks for having me. Thank you.

We're going to take a quick break, followed by my interview with Sharp Entertainment CEO Matt Sharp. ♪

We're back. In a moment, you're going to hear my interview with Matt Sharp. Matt is the man behind reality TV hits like 90 Day Fiance, Inmate to Roommate, and help, I'm in a secret relationship. How do you get into a secret relationship? Maybe I need to watch the show, which I haven't. You meet a guy and you're really into him and it seems like you're in a relationship and then you find out he has a girlfriend and you're a side chick. This sounds deeply personal. What? What?

are you revealing to me now that you are on help i'm in a secret relationship

Listen, I think we're going to have to sidebar on this. I will say what really stuck out to me during this interview, though, was how he talked about the moment he knows when a show will be a hit. And the way he measures it is when he starts seeing people crowd around an editing room. That's a great way to measure a hit. I mean, the immediate response. You're looking for an audience. And if the people who are making it like it, that's a pretty good... Presumably not phased by anything. Yeah, because they've seen the stuff that they had to

cut. Exactly. The other part that was interesting to me was when he talked about sort of basically making money from putting people on a show, but not compensating them. Yeah, that's the real kind of gross part about all reality TV show or most reality TV show. Some do pay. Most do not.

So we talked to him about all of this, but first I started by asking him specifically about 90 Day Fiancé and how that crazy show got made. 90 Day Fiancé is an American television program that's on TLC that follows the journey of an American and a foreigner who have fallen in love.

It's an organic show. We're not putting people together. This is not a... It's not putting people in a house. It's literally casting people who have already met, who have fallen in love, and now we're kind of following that journey. One of the ideas behind it is that it's relatable because people kind of know what it's like to be in a relationship or be in love.

It's extraordinary because it's someone from another country who potentially has entirely different customs than you, who speaks even a different language in many cases, who's bringing like a family and parents into the situation who don't necessarily understand you. So it's kind of like a high stakes.

show. So that's 90. How did you come up with it? Were you in a 90 day fiance relationship? I was not. So we're always looking for kind of new, fresh worlds, you know, at this company and where kind of interesting stories had not been told. There was a news magazine piece, I think in 2011, it was like a random piece about Americans who were going abroad to find love.

And mostly it was men. And mostly they were going to Ukraine, but they kind of met these... There's a lot of men who went to Ukraine on 90 Day. Right, exactly. That is a classic scenario. Yes, a classic scenario.

It was really interesting. And so we said, okay, there's definitely something there that's really interesting. So we pitched the show kind of as is. We went out originally and we said, we want to follow Americans, men and women going abroad to find love. We went around. I'm a very passionate salesperson and pitcher and I get in the room and I'm like, okay, this is definitely a huge hit. I'm so excited about it. And we got resounding passes across the board. Yeah.

And people basically said, you suck. We hate you. We're not buying your show. But I was still kind of convinced there was something there. So we took it back. And one of the things we heard from people was this isn't really female because there are a lot of guys going over there. It's not really male because, you know, guys in the television audience don't want to watch shows about love.

So hilariously, we actually renamed the show, trying to push it in more of a male direction. We started calling the show and brought it back out, Bachelor Wars Russia, which is hilarious. Wait, wait, wait.

Yes. That's so funny. Yes. Oh, my God. We're like, OK. So at the time, there were some kind of male dominated networks, including like Spike. And we felt like, OK, so we have to pick a direction. We'll do this show for Spike and it'll be called Bachelor Wars Russia. And we'll follow these American men going abroad. And a lot of times it was kind of competitive. They're going to the same city. Odessa was one place.

And they would go and kind of compete and come with engagement rings in their pockets. We took that out. Shockingly, that was also rejected. We were feeling kind of defeated. And then we were really going back through the idea and talking about the process. And I think I was having a conversation with my head of development. And we were saying, like, what's great about this idea, da-da-da-da, and the whole process. And he was saying, well, they go abroad and they come back. And then they go through the visa, the K-1 visa process. And I'm like, wait, what's that?

You know, the K1 visa. Like, what is that? It's like, well, that's 90 days. They bring the fiance, foreign fiance over and they have 90 days to get married or they need to leave the country. And of course we looked at each other and said, oh, that's it. Like, that's the show. That's a format. So we took it back out, took it back to all the places. And we said, we cracked it. Great news. Rejected. Again, everyone again said, you suck. We don't want your idea. We hate you. Go away. Okay.

And so it was basically dead and we had put together a sizzle reel. And then I was at a television conference called the real screen conference in DC in 2013. And I was speaking to a long time partner colleague, uh,

Howard Lee, who's now the president of TLC and Discovery. He was at TLC at the time. And he said, what's that one idea that you're like really passionate about? The one idea that felt like it got away that we should be doing? And I said, well, everyone's passed on it, you know, blah, blah, blah. He said, show it to me because he hadn't seen it. I showed it to him. And, you know, three minutes into the reel, he looked at me and said, we're buying this. I am curious.

how casting comes about for these. Like, how do you find the men who are going to Ukraine? How do you find the person who's like bringing a 19-year-old Filipino bride to Oklahoma or whatever? Yes, right. Every show, every show is totally different. That's one of the exciting parts about being a nonfiction and unscripted. You know, we're scripted. It was a medium that was invented 100 years ago. And here's exactly how everything works.

It happens and it lays out and it's going to be a different script and a different director, but this is how we do it. You know, a nonfiction is,

every show you're tackling in a different way. And so you've got to solve that puzzle at the beginning and that goes for casting. And so for a show like 90 Day, that was a real challenge. We were thinking like, well, this is a great idea. We want to tell these stories, but how are we going to cast this show? And I think we put it some internet searches and we joined some groups and we weren't getting any responses. And I think my head of casting said, I think we ought to reach out and send letters to people

hundreds maybe i mean maybe not thousands but hundreds of immigration lawyers wow around the country and just say hey we're a television show we're making a show for tlc we're excited about it we want to tell the authentic story of you know one of your clients if they're interested if they found each other already if they're in the process of getting a k1 visa

we want to tell that story. Why do most people go on? Is there a financial incentive? Like, do you help them with visa? You know what I mean? Not just 90 Day, but I'm thinking of any of your shows.

We don't. I mean, so 90 Day, there's like a very strict wall between the visa process, right? It's like you can't ever touch that. That's a process that they're a part of. And as you see in the show, many times people get rejected and we're kind of like, tell us how it's going. In 90, there's a fee for the American. You can't pay a foreigner. Interesting. Right. So there's a fee for the American, but that's really not the incentive. We want to make sure that this show doesn't become people's job.

Yeah.

oh, you know, the plane was just canceled or the driver number showed up or whatever. And again, that stuff just happens. And a lot of people on that show are really broke. To be honest. Yeah. A big conversation over the past few years. I'm thinking of contestants' mental health. I am curious, you know, both in the selection process and as you film,

How do you think about that? Right. Like if you see somebody sort of unspooling or something going wrong, you know what I mean? Like, how do you how do you treat those problems? We have a lot of people in our universe, not only 90 Day, but other shows. We want to follow people's journeys, but we also want to follow people's journeys that, you know, with the realization that they're going to be on television, that millions of people potentially are going to watch them and that not only they're going to watch them, but they're

a lot of people comment on Twitter and there's like opinions about them and there are articles about them. So we're looking for people, you know, right from the beginning that understand that. Of course, when you've got hundreds of people in your universe, there's stuff that happens and we deal, you know, on a case by case basis. It's rare, but, you know, for us, it's

that's the most important thing, right? Like, you know, the safety of our cast and crew is by far the most important thing. When the franchise started, this wasn't as much of a thing, but now everyone has a sort of side conversation on social media. How do you

How do you think about how to sort of incorporate that aspect into the narrative? Like, how much do you assume the audience knows? How do you fold that in? Yeah, that's a great question. And that's evolving. Social media, and I think when we started the show in 2014, I guess was January 2014, it was less of a thing, especially because it was a brand new show. But when all of a sudden people are famous...

Yeah. And there are articles about them. I think the question creatively for us is, what is that line? How much do we incorporate? Because that is a reality in their life. And I think we take it, you know, and we've embraced it in a couple places and we have not embraced it in other. I think it just depending on the storyline and is that truly affecting the narrative that we're following?

But it's a really interesting question because, right, I mean, at a certain point, you're like, okay, so this person's famous. They're on television. So now is it not organic because they're on television, they're famous, and they've got this other piece when they walk into a mall, people are like, oh, I know them. So if someone is terrorizing people, which they have on our show, terrorizing people with an Instagram account, that's something that we'll address.

and say, you can't do that, right? And there's certain social media walls that we try to put up a little just to say, we want this to be organic and authentic. And also these are real-time stories, but they're airing six months later. So we also have to be careful about that too.

90 Days is an example, probably your most successful example when it comes to spinoffs. When do you know something makes sense for sort of some kind of brand extension? I mean, I think our count on 90 Day, the total extensions is 34. In terms of like spinning off a show,

you know, we're looking at the core show. So it's like, let's take 90 Day Fiance and say like, okay, that's the original show. That's the core show. That's where it all started. And you look at that show and then you say, what are like the parts of that show that are really interesting, that are hooks, that are getting underserved? That it's like, okay, so we're kind of like this particular format, this particular angle isn't really allowing for a lot of exploration in this one really interesting area. Yeah.

So a great example would be Before the 90 Days, which was our second spinoff. So in terms of spinning that show off, we're like, what's great about the show is firsts, right? We're really, we want to show firsts. We get a lot of firsts in 90 Day. First time meeting mom and dad. First time being in America. First time going to an American mall. But before the 90, there's a lot of relationship firsts.

And so, and that was kind of being underserved in 90 Day. And so we saw that as a huge opportunity as like, okay, this will be a great spinoff because we actually want to see, the audience wants to see what happens before the 90 Days. They want to see when they first meet and that like, and they've been talking online and there's right, there's opportunity potentially that like this person's a catfish. They're not who they say they were. And they're like, I'm going to check out their world in a different way through the eyes of an American viewer.

So I always say in terms of spinoffs, the best spinoff is like five or 10 degrees to the left or right. It's not 180 degrees because if our spinoff was like a game show, you'd be like, well, this isn't 90 day. Like, why do I care? I like 90 day. Give me another angle of 90 day. And so that's how we really look at spinoffs.

How do you know when you've struck reality TV gold? You know, when you watch that pilot, what are the things you look for? It used to be that you knew something was a hit by the crowd gathering outside an edit room. You know, it would be like, you know, people editing a show with the door open and

and if no one was stopping by on their way to the bathroom or whatever and looking in the door, you're like, oh, well, we're screwed. That's not going to work. But if people gather and they're like, they're pulled in by a project that they're not even associated with, but they're just really interested in the show, that was always a great measure. My wife, who I show a lot of this early, is a great arbiter and sometimes...

it's not what I want to hear because all of a sudden she gets distracted about something in about three seconds. I'm like, "Okay, this is not going to work." This is not good. Yeah. But if she's riveted, in the case of 90 or Love After Lockup, she'll look at that casting with me.

And I see her like leaning in and saying like, oh my God, I'm dying to hear more about this. That's like a great, it's often, you know, in working in television, we're all so close to it. Sometimes it's hard to see the ability to kind of step back and look at it purely as like entertainment content. Am I getting pulled into this? Do I find myself absorbed by this material? When you're casting the show, how do you know someone's going to be good on camera?

Well, our casting process, we've got an amazing casting department, is pretty intensive. I mean, we'll start with letters and we'll hear, you know, emails from people and we hear about them and they'll often send pictures with that and then based on their story and kind of looking for variety, right? Like, we want lots of variety in these shows.

We're like trying to tell different types of stories and news stories. They'll submit something. And then based on that, we'll set up interviews. And a lot of times they'll be like a Zoom interview and talk to them. And then, you know, based on that, we look at hundreds of people and some people are like,

really great and a note they send and it sounds amazing. And then they get on a Zoom conversation. It's really flat, right? Like it's kind of like one word answers and you're like, okay, they got a great story. They're not going to be great for television. So anyway, we're looking for people that are going to can express themselves and really open themselves up.

This is a warts and all show. We're not just looking for people that's like, this is puppies and rainbows all the time. And there is some of that for sure. But we also are looking for people that trust us, that trust the camera to open themselves up, to feel free to tell a story.

You've had shows that take place in the deep Amazon. How do you protect your crew while also sort of staying true to the story? Before we go out on any shoot, we discuss that. And obviously there are places in the world that feel riskier than others that are in fact riskier.

So we look at all of that and say, how are we going to potentially execute here? Because we're following these stories. So we're not putting people in these worlds, but that's where these people exist. And so we're going to follow and tell that story.

I am curious, you know, just broadly getting your thoughts on the state of reality TV. I am curious, like, how that balance looks to you right now. Like, is there more demand for reality shows? What kinds of reality shows people are looking for? What's that been like? The reality of the world right now is that the barrier to entry is

to create nonfiction content is gone, right? Like when I was a kid and I was, you know, using my parents camcorder and my, my buddy, Tom had strung two VCRs together to like edit. There were various entry, right? Like it was like, you don't, you can't buy an edit machine. You've got this crappy camcorder, but now everyone's walking around, uh,

you know, with a phone that's got a better camera than I used five years ago to make shows, right? Like it's like, so the buried entry is completely gone. And, you know, and obviously a lot of eyeballs that are looking for kind of, you know, unscripted nonfiction are online. You know, I look at my kids and I'm like, guys, like watch daddy's television here, please. You know, so that's the reality. You know, I think that the audience, there is still a huge appetite

for Unscripted, and I think both in linear television as well as streamers, people really do want, I think, quality content.

And I think there's some quality that people are doing on Instagram and YouTube and everything else. But I think in terms of on TV and on streamers, quality that you can deliver to an audience, I think people really want. I think also we have the ability in our field to bring people into worlds that they can't really access. I think at the end of the day, there's some disruption. That goes for all of content, but I'm massively bullish about content and I'm really bullish about Unscripted.

Can you share a couple of either ideas or concepts that didn't work out that you're dying to make? I mean, we've had a lot of shows that got away, right? We felt really, really excited about there was a show for, and this is pre-COVID, we were doing a show for Disney called The Real Swiss Family Robinson.

Which was really exciting. I think I saw ads for it. Maybe. No, maybe not. Or I read about it somewhere. I don't think we got to the ad stage. Or I read about it somewhere. Maybe you read about it. But anyway, we were really excited because families were really moving off the grid. And we were going to tell these amazing stories. And then COVID happened. And I had a crew, I think, stuck in Tonga for two weeks. Yeah.

Couldn't get back to the United States. Nightmare. And so then the network, of course, you know, whenever you let anything sit too long, they think about it again and say, oh, actually, we don't want that show. So that's one. Another one is we had actually back in the day, I had signed Kim Kardashian. This is a big one to a television show prior before she was Kim Kardashian, before she was the sex tape and Kanye and all that. It was like her job was

organizing celebrities' closets in LA. But we cast Kim and like a handful of her best buddies who were living in LA and they were going to move to New York and try to, you know, make it in New York, you know? And so this was going to be for VH1.

Basically, the show was sold. We were really excited. And then kind of on the eve of production, got a call from Kim and said, oh, I can't do that. I'm not sure the other girls want to do it or whatever. So they kind of basically backed out of it. Yeah. I don't know exactly. It's always a little fuzzy why. But a year later, two years later, Keeping Up with the Kardashians comes out and Kim becomes like the most famous person in the world. So that's a small one.

I'm curious, like when you decide that something's gone too far, you know what I mean? Like you could have a scene where honestly somebody is like there's like racist undertones to a lot of what they're saying. And you are documenting how people feel, how people are reacting. I don't necessarily think that's not valuable, actually. But at what point do you say like that's too racist? You know what I mean? Or like that's too inappropriate, right?

If anything goes there, right, like, you know, documenting people on television from all different types of backgrounds, they're going to say things. We're, I think, on our end, we're really trying for that not to happen. And if we feel like this person is cross-lined, we will absolutely shut it down.

And also in terms of like, you know, you've had a few people on the show, I would say, especially before the 90 days really hammered at home to me where it's like someone lives in kind of abject poverty. I remember, you know, there was an episode where someone's mom died because their home was shoddily constructed. Yeah. And I guess as a documentarian, like, how do you...

deal with that. You know what I mean? I guess you just say bye at the end of it, but it feels like kind of terrible? I don't know. Yeah. I mean, listen, and again, that's, I think, when we see those types of situations in the show, I think everyone's heart breaks because...

Not everyone in the world lives the same. You know, certainly not everyone in this country lives the same and not everyone in the world lives the same, you know, and that's kind of part of the eye opening piece of the show is you're seeing that. But it's also hard because I guess it comes back to my question, like you can't compensate them because they're foreigners. Right. But you are making money off of them. You are like they're on TV. So how do you sort of square that circle?

Yeah, I mean, you know, we see this as an opportunity for the cast members. We see it as an opportunity for them to kind of, you know, if you look at kind of the history of people that have been on this show...

Many of them have built something beyond this show. And when they become American, actually, they do get paid. The point of this show, and I said it before, is we want to tell authentic stories. And so the second this becomes someone's job where it's like, we're giving you the check and this is your job and show up for set or whatever else, we're trying to tell stories. So-

But I do think kind of, you know, just anecdotally, you know, beyond the show, there are a lot of people that have built something from this show, you know, and it's actually a lot of good has come from it. Seeing certain things that are going on in the world and, you know, people react and you see it on Twitter and then.

I think just highlighting these things in a really authentic way, because we're not there to change. We're not there to change things, right? We're not there to say, okay, because also it would be equally bad to smooth it over, you know, and say, oh, you know, let's fix up our house before we show this thing. That's being dishonest. So it's like, you know, we want to be honest, show. And I think

We're bringing people into a world, and as part of that, it's a warts and all world. And to be honest, I think the good of the show comes from people kind of seeing it. A lot of people, and I was kind of talking before about this show and foreigners and diversity, that at the time, I think people didn't really feel like, oh, this is

This is like the most diverse show on television, right? Like, it is. It's like, you know, we're in 60-some-odd countries around the world, lots of different religions, lots of different cultures. I think the conventional wisdom was, well, America is not interested in that, right? Like, they want to see people like them. And I think what's ended up happening is that people watching this show understand that

in a real way understand people that aren't like them. They really see them as, 'cause we're telling stories of the heart. We're telling stories that show their struggles and their dreams and their hopes and love and really brings the humanity to people that aren't like you, that you ultimately understand. I think one great example was during the beginning of the Ukraine war,

We had a special, which is people were dying to know what's going on with the people that we feature in Ukraine. And we did a show. A lot of it was kind of shot on Zoom and phones or whatever else about those people. But they wanted to know. It wasn't like, I don't care about them. They're over there. It was like, I know these people. I fall in love with these people. I follow their journeys. And they're still in Ukraine. To me, that's like the most effective part of the show. That makes a lot of sense. Well, this was great.

I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us and explain to us the sort of behind the scenes making of a reality TV juggernaut. My pleasure. So fun to talk to you. Yeah, thank you so much. Okay, we are back and it's time to wrap up the show with Keeping Tabs. This is where each of us shares a story, trend, or company we're following right now. And Josh, what are you following? I know we talked about it in the beginning of the show, but I'm Keeping Tabs on these Oscar nominations. It's something that

I'm always interested in every year, although I think there needs to be kind of a greater retrospective on the necessity of awards show overall. But I'm still fascinated by it. Just like Moira Rose, my favorite season is awards. I wish they hadn't expanded the category of best movie to so many.

I don't mind it being 10. It used to be more. And then they went to five for a long time. I liked five. I liked five. The only reason I don't like it is because they have like a graphics package for about three minutes for each movie. And it just adds so much time to the entire show. Like, I don't really need to do that. Although this year, I'm kind of most interested in the best story.

song category. Do you think I'm Just Ken is going to win? Well, this is what I'm talking about. It's always a danger shuffle of songs that end up

in this category where like it's, it's, it's never like a cohesive list. Like this year you have like a song, like a really heartbreaking song from killers of the flower moon. Uh, that is, I, I don't, I'm not going to try to pronounce the, um, the original indigenous language that is written in, but it translates to a song for my people. And then you have, I'm just Ken from the Barbie movie. And like, but,

the other, the What I Was Made For, which is probably going to win What I Was Made For. But we're going to see performances of all these songs, which means Ryan Gosling's going to perform I'm Just Ken at the Oscars. He looked unhappy about that at the Golden Globes, was it? He was like, no. I don't blame him. It's also like, it's a funny song. It should not be nominated for an Oscar. If that's nominated for an Oscar, then the Bowser song should be nominated that

was in the Mario movie. Like, come on. But we'll get more into the Oscars closer to March 10th. We'll do a whole episode opening on the Oscars. But what are you keeping tabs on? Just Pets.

Just been a lot of layoffs lately. Yeah, it's really depressing. We were talking about this offline earlier. But it's, yeah, it's hard. It's crazy to have it both in the industry that you cover. You know, just today, Brex, Riot Games. My husband was working for a fintech startup. They just laid off half their company, including his whole team.

You know, and it's just like everywhere. And we have layoffs in the industry that we're in. In, yeah. It's Sports Illustrated, just the most recent one, completely shuttered. LA Times just laid off 100 people. Yeah. Condé Nast Union is currently striking because I think they were going to lay off like 300 people. Yeah. It's a...

It's just bleak out there. Yeah, but you know what would make it less bleak? Playing I'm Just Ken on repeat. That'll get you through. You know what would make it less bleak personally is if you slid into our DMs with some amazing job offers or sponsorships for this podcast. Sponsorships would be great. Yeah, sponsor us. Keep that money coming in so we can keep making you great content.

Even mediocre content. Sorry, yes, let me note that. So we can keep making you passable content. Yeah. And that's it for most innovative companies on this moderately innovative show. Our show is produced by Avery Miles, Blake Odom, and Julia Xu. Mixed and sound designed by Nicholas Torres. And our executive producer is Oscar nominee Josh Christensen. You like that?

Remember again to subscribe, rate, and review, and we'll see you next week.