How NBA Top Shot is Transforming Trading Cards into NFTs
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Most Innovative Companies is presented to you by Invesco QQQ, Invesco Distributors Inc.

I'm Amy Farley, and this is Most Innovative Companies, where we're talking to business leaders about how they've found creative ways to confront some of today's biggest challenges and point the way forward for both their industries and society at large. Today, we're going to talk about the gaming industry, which is worth more than $160 billion globally. Over the past year and a half, as people have gone from sheltering at home to tentative re-engagement with the world to whatever is in store for us this fall, it's been a

Games have taken on an outsized role in our lives. Consoles and titles are harnessing new technologies to deliver more immersive and lifelike gaming experiences than ever before. And the companies behind these titles are now constructing virtual worlds that encompass concerts, product drops, political debates, and other experiences. At the same time, games have permeated the lives of people who don't even consider themselves gamers. Take, for example, the roughly 1 million users of NBA Top Shot.

the blockchain-based platform that allows people to buy and sell digital trading cards that feature a clip of an NBA player's best shots or plays. It's a game of a sort, and it's using non-fungible tokens or NFTs to bridge the virtual and digital realms in very intriguing ways.

Within just eight months of its launch, NBA Top Shot notched more than $700 million in total sales. On this episode, I'll be speaking with Rome Garagoslu, the CEO of Dapper Labs, which is the company behind NBA Top Shot, about why he wants to do far more than just digitize the age-old pastime of buying and selling trading cards. But before we focus on Dapper Labs, let's take a look at the larger world of gaming.

Fastco Works contributor Ted Brown spoke with Ryan McCormick, an equity product strategist at Invesco QQQ, to get his take for a special custom segment called Inside the Industry. I'm Ted Brown. Joining me again is Ryan McCormick. Thanks

Thanks for joining us, Ryan. Thanks, Ted. It's great to be here again. So, Ryan, we're talking about gaming today. Do you expect any big shifts in this sector over the next year? And which of those developments are you really excited about? I mean, I think from my perspective, every shift is huge. I mean, I've never really considered myself like a gamer before.

But the last time I played was like 20 years ago, Tiger Woods Golf and like NHL 99. So, you know, it's an entirely different ballgame now. You know, I think in sort of looking at some of the trends that have developed and at least started to take hold across the space is really this notion of cloud gaming.

Right. So, you know, previously in my day and age, you would walk and go to the store and buy your console and buy your game. And then that advanced into, hey, you can get this all online. But, you know, it kind of led to these huge data downloads and really slow downloading speed.

Now you have the advent of cloud gaming where everything kind of is driven from the cloud. So you're not necessarily relying on having to go out and get the most advanced operating system. You're seeing kind of this democratization of the gaming world and moving everything to the cloud, I think just enhances the experience across the board. How do you think cloud-based gaming and this democratization of gaming, as you called it, is going to have a wider impact on the economy generally? Yeah.

It's just another avenue that the cloud can kind of flex its muscles. You know, I would equate it to like, it's very similar to this notion of software as a service, right? Where gaming becomes more subscription-based rather than, again, going and buying the physical copy or downloading the game off of the internet.

You see it with the popularity of a platform like Steam, where users can stream a bunch of different gaming titles all at the tip of their fingertips. And you're seeing other platforms start to rise to prominence that allow gamers to leverage a wide array of gaming titles. I think the adoption and the appetite of these cloud-based services or the subscription-based model will only continue to grow. What do you think is the biggest misconception about the gaming industry and its potential impact on the wider economy?

This is no longer just a hobby. Back when I was a kid, it was like you get this notion of, hey, stop wasting your time. Turn the video games off. Well, that's not really the case anymore. I mean, you look at recent years of e-sports events, they've exploded. And now you're looking at tens of millions of dollars in prize money. And I think, you know, people start to see the money that's behind that. And it's this can be a lot more than than just a hobby. You know, beyond just playing in these large scale tournaments, popular gamers have really been able to

monetize their following through platforms like, you know, these streaming services, stuff like Twitch. Endorsements, you're seeing wide scale players into the space endorsing certain gamers. So, you know, I think it's moved far beyond this notion of a hobby and really kind of on the same playing field as professional sports. And I did want to talk about traditional or traditional sports, I should say, and how technology is going to change

how we interact with those as fans, how players might use technology to augment their experiences and how the fan might use it to augment their own experiences, whether it's watching at home, whether it's in a stadium, et cetera. Ted, I think you and I can probably do a podcast on this question alone, but I'll try.

I'll try to keep my comments somewhat brief. It's revolutionized the way that fans can interact with their favorite athletes as well as just consume the sport in general. And, you know, stuff like these 360 degree viewing angles where you can get really granular from a viewer standpoint of exactly how a play develops or what happened in a particular sequence of events. And, you know, you're looking at this kind of total eye view, this 360 degree view, and

Fans are able to look and evaluate talent that they would like their team to address. You know, I think advanced statistics in the game itself, like exit velocity of home runs, that's kind of where we are now. I think the next leg up is sort of this immersive virtual reality or maybe even alternative reality way to consume games. You have folks utilizing immersive experiences to practice, to get a better idea of certain blitz packages in the NFL or how defenses have been lining up and gives you a, a,

a way to stay very connected with the game from the comfort of your own home or trading room. - Now we've talked a lot about emerging technologies, next generation technologies, but there's one hole in tech that we haven't talked about and that's blockchain. - I think with the advent of blockchain being incorporated into the gaming ecosystem, you could see a scenario where players are able to transfer kind of their digital currency that they've won or loaded in a specific game

or assets that they've won or purchased, things like skins, et cetera, and utilize them in other games. Beyond that, you look at some of these more rare assets that are either won or purchased, and they're commanding some very serious value. You know, I think it's really interesting, this whole notion of centralized versus decentralized gaming, and it seems as though we're inching towards that. We've talked a lot about the future.

What are we doing right now that will change significantly because of advances in this sector over the next couple of years? I think it's the way that we consume gaming. 2020, in a rather captive audience, you started to see how real this is, whether it be folks streaming on Twitch, whether it be just interactions on social media broadly. The opportunity to

to tap into the e-sports or the gaming fan marketplace is tremendous. And I think, you know, the lack of what we're doing right now or the lack of appeal, the lack of connectivity to that fan, I think will look foolish down the road. And I can't believe that we kind of neglected this potential opportunity.

But it's been very, very clear that people love to watch esports and gaming, depending on a number of different surveys that have been released. You have kind of the newer generation, more than half of them would rather watch esports or gaming than live sports. That seems inconceivable years ago. Ryan, thanks so much for the time and insights. Thanks, Ted. It was great being here. Inside the Industry is produced by Fasco Works in partnership with Invesco QQQ. I'm Ted Brown, and now back to Most Innovative Companies.

And we're back with most innovative companies. Last October, NBA fans were greeted by a new online marketplace for basketball collectibles. Called NBA Top Shot, it allows users to buy, collect, and trade video clip packets of NBA players and moments. Things like a LeBron James dunk or a Vince Carter three-pointer.

The key, Topshot uses blockchain technology to authenticate these videos and prevent them from being duplicated. Within just eight months of its launch, NBA Topshot has reached a million users and notched more than 700 million in total sales. And the company behind it, Dapper Labs, is now valued at more than $7.5 billion. And the world of

blockchain verified assets or NFTs has exploded over the past several months. Dapper is fueling this explosion with NBA Topshop, which continues to grow, but also via the company's Flow platform, which allows other developers to create and launch their own NFT products and marketplaces.

Here to explain why NFTs could change the world of sports, music, gaming, and more is Dapper Labs co-founder and CEO, Roham Garagaslu. Roham, thank you so much for joining me today. Absolutely. Thank you for having me. So a year ago, I think few people outside of the world of crypto could really tell you what NFT stood for. But now it's a very familiar acronym. And I'm going to go ahead and give NBA Top Shot's meteoric success a lot of credit for that.

But were even you surprised by just how quickly the general public embraced Top Shot and NFTs more generally? I definitely was pleasantly surprised with sort of how quickly NBA players jumped in, how quickly Top Shot itself became part of the basketball culture. But, you know, the progress on NFTs has been slow and steady.

you know, since we wrote the first NFT standard four years ago, you know, a lot of smart people working on, you know, crypto art and other elements as well. So it just opens so much opportunity for creators, opens so much more kind of design space for both developers and designers that we've been looking forward to it. I mean, I don't want to say we predicted every single aspect of it, but we've been hard at work for many years for exactly this reason. But it does.

seem like a lot of people that are using NBA Top Shot might not be versed in the world of crypto and might not really fully understand an NFT, but they innately understand the value of what Top Shot offers. And that seems like a triumph in and of itself. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the word NFT, I don't think is on our website or at least on the Top Shot website. And then, yeah, more than 80% of the users just use credit card. They don't have cryptocurrency. And we want them to

like the product for the benefits it gives them rather than for the details of the technology. I mean, the core thing about TopShot is if you buy something, you'll be able to sell it. It's under your control. You know, in the future, those things will get you access into new experiences that may be built by Dappelass, maybe built by other products.

The other benefit is there's complete transparency. Unlike the physical card market, you can see every single transaction that has happened from the beginning of time. You can go into every single collector's account and look at what they bought, when they bought it, who they traded with. Everything is transparent. And those things are because of the blockchain, but you don't need to understand blockchain to know that. And it's kind of analogous to you don't need to understand HTTP transactions.

security in order to order something from Amazon. You just need to know my credit card information is safe and I'll get the things within 48 hours. And that's the kind of experience we're trying to give customers. So with certain items selling for upwards of $200,000 on Topshot, you've obviously got some serious collectors on the platform.

But who else is on there and how are they using it? The vast majority of transactions on the platform are actually very affordable. You can sell something for $2 and pay 10 cents in fees. That's kind of the experience we want to make sure it's actually accessible to every kind of NBA fan. And there are challenges that take tens of thousands of dollars to complete.

while there are others where it's all about just collect three moments from your favorite team and you might get a prize or the ability to enter a showcase contest. So it's very important to us that the product is actually accessible to every level of fan. So those higher grade moments exist. And this week we're going to do a big legendary drop. But at the same time, for example, we made all of the playoff moments accessible in common packs that people can buy for $14 and trade amongst each other. And the kinds of people that use the platform

Definitely a good portion are high-end trading card collectors, memorabilia collectors. But Top Shot is something that there's NBA fans spend billions of dollars a year in video games, opening packs and completing collections, but they don't actually have ownership of those moments. And

People that play a lot of video games find the concept of NBA Top Shot and the fact that they have real ownership over the things they buy, they find that super exciting. The other element that's really interesting about Top Shot is almost the, this is very attractive to kind of people that like daily fantasy, is the market moves based on things that happen in the real world. So

if a team qualifies for the playoffs, or if a player gets injured, things happen in the marketplace. And they like that kind of day-to-day, hour-to-hour action, rather than most collectors think in terms of years or decades. And so Top Shot kind of brings multiple groups of people together, as well as kind of the average NBA fan or a casual NBA fan who just wants to feel a little bit closer to their favorite players. So there's a little bit of sort of the fan duel kind of

I guess, micro trading that's happening on the platform? Is that what you're hinting at? Yeah, I mean, it's nothing like betting or anything like that. But it is, you know, thinking, well, if a player is going to do well, do I want to own multiple moments of that particular player in order to potentially, you know, maybe they will go up in value because more people will want that player, adding what happens in the real world and sort of the game of basketball and each of these individual players careers to the decision making, which, you know, definitely happens in the trading card world, but

Because digital is so instant, you can have something happen on screen and within 30 minutes see the impact on the marketplace. Whereas in sort of the physical card market, it's much slower. So before you hinted at other developers maybe coming in and building experiences and products on top of Top Shot, where do you see Top Shot in a couple of years? Will it be still the foundation of the packs and the clips that people get now, but will there be a lot of other experiences built on top of that?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we've been pretty open with the game that we have under development. It's sort of a mobile game that people can actually take their collections into and get benefits in and challenge their friends. And so you do better or worse based on the team you've put together and the moments you have in your collection. So that's one product we're building. But we already have third parties like Moment Ranks is running more of a... It's not really fantasy, but it sort of feels like fantasy where, you know, well, it's similar in the sense that you can make your team...

But you use your top shot moments, and based on what happens in the games, you sort of win or lose, and you challenge other players. And that's something we had no involvement in, and they sort of independently designed it, built it, shipped it. So things like that we anticipate will increase. But then you can expand it to really anyone building any kind of functionality

on top of Top Shot. It doesn't have to be a game. It can also be in the real world. Any team or individual can build functionality and say, well, if you show up to the Mavs arena and you own a million dollars of Mavs moments, well, maybe we're going to treat you a little bit differently and give you some special benefits. And that will let us get to know you. And you're a huge super fan. And so...

These things become out of the box, easy and possible. And sort of, you know, as Dapper Labs, we're not the gatekeeper to them. Anybody can do them without our permission, in a sense. And that's the power of blockchain. That's the power of the transparency. And that's sort of helping, you know, even our partners within the NBA sort of realize that this technology is much more than,

speculation on cryptocurrencies, it's the idea that anything that should be public and open can actually now be built in a public and open way. So your investors include more than a dozen NFL players and a handful of MLB players. And you already have deals with the UFC and Fantastic Swap, which is a company that makes digital collectibles for soccer.

So is this a focus for you for the coming year and years, rolling out video sports collectibles to other professional leagues? Yeah, the way that Dapper Labs is set up is we have independent studios that have focuses. And so we are going to go deeper within sports because it's such a threat that brings people together and

You know, these sports organizations have in a sense been, this is the first time they can actually engage with their fans in a way that gives them, sort of gives the fans direct control, gives the league, you know, continued secondary sales revenue. It really changed the game in terms of how they think about monetizing their content in a digital world and actually makes it even better than things have been in the physical world. And so it's a really big win-win for them.

the sports organizations. It's a huge win-win for the fans. It's a massive benefit also for the players where, you know, whether they're rookies or legends, for the rookies, it's hard to break through. For the legends, it's they deserve to have a piece of the perpetual royalty of their assets as they increase in value. And this gives them that. So that's why sports is such a huge focus. I mean, we are also, we have small teams exploring other professions

future ideas. And we have CryptoKitties, some of our own IP as well. But absolutely, just bringing fans, organizations and teams, and then athletes together using this technology is such a good proof point for what it can do for people. And as you intimated, a lot of the benefit of

The way we're doing things is our platform is actually open for anyone to build on. So products like Fantastic and others are building on top of Flow. We'll send them users and we'll do co-marketing and things like that. But they're in the driver's seat as far as the decisions they're making and the kinds of products they're building. I'm curious, I mean, with so much money being made on, say, a video clip that a broadcaster records, you do have sort of the announcer making the call and multiple players in that video.

Do they all get a piece of the action, so to speak? They do. I mean, it's all funneled right now through the more traditional organizations. And, you know, players have players associations. We don't actually use announcer audio, or at least we don't yet. And so we don't have formal partnerships with any of the broadcasters.

between the league and the players associations that usually covers most of the rights that are necessary. And then what we like doing is going to individual players and really whoever, any player that has wanted to invest, I've made room for them. We've squeezed down VCs and sort of done what we needed to do because this product wouldn't be here

if it wasn't for the players. And so it's just really important to us that they do get a piece of the action, both at the union negotiations, as well as, you know, directly in Dapper Labs. And so we have, I think at this point, over 50 athletes that are part of the cap table directly and many more that are sort of through syndicates and sort of funds that we let in simply because they're sort of all athlete and things like that. Changing gears a bit, you recently invested in and partnered with the 3D avatar company Genies.

which has announced plans to launch a marketplace where celebs who use genies like Justin Bieber and Cardi B can drop and sell wearable NFT collections for people's avatars.

On the surface, this seems like a big departure from sports. Can you explain why this is a natural next step for Dapper? You know, if you think about how you use your iPhone, if you're a big sports fan, of course you use it to watch highlights. But that's also where your Facebook is. That's also where your Twitter is. That's also where you message people. That's sort of what you considered, you know, your Apple Pay, your credit cards are in there, etc. And, you know, with kind of the Dapper wallet and the way we build flow,

it's very much general purpose. Where we see our role as Dapper Labs and the Dapper Sports Studio is building products nobody else can build, sort of flagship references for the industry that take, in the NBA Top Shots case, over a year and sort of 40, 50 people to maintain. What that does is it shows people what's possible and then brings, in this case, over a million users. When those users come, we want them to have access to a wide ecosystem of third parties. So

the user is going to have the option to kind of go into multiple different worlds. And for me, the avatar and that user's kind of representation of themselves and, you know, partially it's how they want to show themselves off, you know, who their tribes are, who they're a fan of. But it could also be ways that, you know, people can earn things from all the different games they go into. If you're a master at NBA Top Shot, you get a special jersey that only sort of the top thousand people get. And then that means when you go to

the F1 racing game or MotoGP, you can actually show off that you're an OG in TopShot, even though you're new within sort of the motorcycle racing community or whatnot. That's a big part of our vision. So the reason I like Genie so much, and they'll actually be the first non-DAP relapse product that launches into our ecosystem, they're going to be one of the kind of catalysts and the glue towards tying

a wide ecosystem of all kinds of different products together because your avatar, your digital identity is kind of the common thread that can run through everything. Can you speak a little bit more about some of the other blockchain-based experiences that are being built on Flow? I know that some 350 companies are on there. You hinted at how many things are sort of in the pipeline. Broadly, can you characterize it? Are there sort of music products? Are there games, multiplayer games being built on Flow? Where are they landing, at least the initial uses of Flow?

I think it wouldn't surprise anyone that there's a huge representation of kind of Top Shot-like products in the sense of collectibles and social marketplaces, that sort of thing. I mean, Genies is one of the most exciting ones, but we recently announced the Olympics are going to be issuing their first series of NFTs with a fantastic partner that selected Flow as their blockchain called Enwake. That's a project we're super excited about. We have more crypto native companies that are also launching on Flow, whether it's

Fractionalization, breaking an NFT up into tokens that can trade on an exchange or whether it's collateralization, the idea of locking up your NFT and getting a loan secured by the NFT. And so you can sort of have liquidity, but then the person that's loaning it to you could also, if you fail to repay, they actually get the NFT at a great price. So these sort of like DeFi-like processes

products are also coming to flow. Many different sort of larger companies that have seen the scale that we can handle with TopShot where, you know, 500,000 paid users is actually more than any NFT project or maybe all NFT projects combined multiple times over. So they've sort of see the base we've built is exactly the kind of project they need. And then there's full scale games where games always take longer to build because they involve,

You know, you just take years. In certain cases, we've had games that have been developing in years and they actually ported over to Flows of Chain Monsters. It's probably going to be the first indie but full-scale video game that's been under development for three, four years. And it's sort of a on-the-blockchain, inspired by Pokemon.

but a little more, a lot more edgy and just very authentic, very indie. So that'll blow people's minds. But then you have larger studios like N-Way, you know, Animoca Games is building their MotoGP franchise on Flow. They've done a couple of sold out NFT drops. And then you sort of have a category that hasn't really broken out into the mainstream yet. But, you know, tokens can be used for much more than just representation of assets. They can actually represent access to different things, whether it's in the real world, you know, in the case of tickets or whether it's in the digital world.

in the case of governance and being able to vote on where a community goes or decisions that a community makes and having real kind of almost political style governance. But for a community, Athenian democracy in a sense, why not apply that to esports leagues or to guilds within Topshop where people can trade sort of amongst each other and have competitions against each other? And sort of what does that look like in terms of the new kinds of social networks in a sense? I'd love

just take a moment to step back to 2017 because that's when through the venture studio Axiom Zen you created CryptoKitties which was a breakout hit it was a gamified way or is a gamified way for people to collect and breed digital cats as NFTs and

But this happened at a time when there was a lot of mainstream buzz building around cryptocurrencies, but not so much in the mainstream for other blockchain applications. What inspired your interest in exploring that? Well, a big part of it was, you know, we were seeing all of these ICOs and these initial coin offerings, people raising hundreds of millions of dollars and in a lot of ways, making promises that we felt were unrealistic given the state of the technology. And so we wanted to build something that was both realistic, as in it was a

product, not a fundraising pitch. It was something that people could actually use on these networks. And the other thing was we were having this concept of a non-fungible token in our minds for some time and the realization that blockchains are a way to represent assets and a way to represent essentially right software that is outside of anyone's direct control. And so currencies are only one thing, one kind of software, one kind of app that

you can you can build on the crypto computer and so what other kinds of apps can you build and what sort of building blocks do you need for those kinds of apps and that's what led us to the non-fungible token center we kind of realized that most things in life are non-fungible rather than only money is fungible only commodities are fungible but almost everything else it kind of matters you know your couch is different on my couch you've sat on it in different ways i've said you know it's sort of even if we bought it originally then they become kind of unique over time and that

at that time there was no way a wallet or a marketplace could distinguish between Bitcoin number 847 and Bitcoin number 10,052 because it doesn't actually matter. In fact, fractions of the Bitcoin don't matter. So a

A big part of CryptoKitties was simply, in a sense, demonstrating the non-fungible token standard and showing folks like, hey, you can go beyond just currencies and trading currencies and then derivatives on currencies. You can kind of build games and build social products and IPs that wouldn't make sense outside of blockchain. That was part of what we wanted to show the world. Did you, at that point, have a roadmap from CryptoKitties that led to a product like TopShot and even to a platform like

flow? Or were you really just testing the waters there? When we started building CryptoKitties, we did not realize how deep we would eventually have to go. But our assumption was we would continue building on Ethereum. And in fact, for the first year and a half of Dapper Labs, our assumption was to continue building on Ethereum. We did get excited about, hey, what could this technology do with established IPs? But I think the

The way we approach product development in general is much less of a map and much more of a compass in the sense of we just had this instinct of open is better than closed. You know, real ownership is a game changer. I mean, we probably won't get into here, but a lot of my history has been and my team's history together has been building small components of larger systems in the case of the previous companies we built. And so the idea of

that those components could be open and permanent, we wouldn't have to deal with platform risk was really exciting to us. But those are maybe more abstract concepts. We definitely, it took us over two years from after CryptoKitties to actually confirm working with the MBA. The product design was also kind of iterative

How important was it for you to have your first product with the NBA? I mean, you could have started much smaller, but the NBA obviously has such huge reach, has such a reputation for understanding technologies and using them in really innovative ways. And obviously with the players and the video aspect of it, were you holding out and waiting for the right prom date or...

Or was it serendipity that it all worked out so beautifully? A little bit of both. We were talking to several partners. I mean, we have UFC and some other fantastic partners, but the NBA is just so perfect because it's a part of music culture. It's a part of streetwear culture. It's a part of sneaker trading is very basketball centric. And in addition, they've been really very thoughtful since the very beginning. They had a cross-functional task force and approaching it from every angle and

And just that was a big element for us is we wanted to work with, and we still prioritize partners that sort of know what they're getting into because crypto is still in the 1998 phase. There's still a fair amount of infrastructure work on unpredictability, timelines shifting, and we needed a partner that understood some of the technology

elements there. I mean, they were flexible enough for us to pivot the entire blockchain and what we were building on. It was a very clear fit that if we could get there on the product vision, that they were the best partner for us. So Dapr Labs is launching its own products, enabling developers to build new ones on the Flow platform, and you're investing in some of these companies.

What role do you envision your company playing in this ecosystem one year out and then five years out? Yeah, that's a great question. We've been pretty active on the investment side. We're often the first money in, but we're never the biggest check-in in the sense that whenever we identify companies that are

We say, hey, we want to support these founders or we think they have what it takes. Some of the world's best investors, they want to support these projects because they know that we have real users that are looking for this content. That's sort of the beginning of how we see our role is we're going to build unique, exclusive content that only we can build. That's going to bring the initial set of users. And everything from there is up to what's shaping up to be a really impressive community

You know, we want to support the community. There's so much capital out there, but, you know, we think we have war stories and scars and mistakes we've made that we can maybe share and avoid others making that are more valuable than money. So that's kind of the role we see ourselves in. We're trying to partner with educational organizations to, you know, tell the story of

crypto as an application platform rather than a currency platform. And there's maybe single digit thousands of people worldwide that understand that and see the opportunity. So we want to kind of almost create, you know, we want it to be a lot more accessible to me, whether it's on flow or on Ethereum or anywhere else. There's so much growth this industry needs. We see our role as sort of being the main catalyst.

for bringing new people, whether it's creators or consumers. And eventually a lot of consumers become creators. And, you know, a lot of the NFT community started off collecting cats and eventually, you know, realized and saw the application to their own domains of expertise. From cats to Athenian style democracy, it's all here. Rome, thank you so much for sharing your insights into NBA Top Shot and how Dapper Labs works and the future of this NFT ecosystem.

We appreciate having you on. Absolutely. Really happy to be here. So it's very exciting to have Roham give us a look inside what's fueling the growth of MBA Top Shot. And also really interesting to realize that he sees this as just the tip of the iceberg for what's coming out from Dapper Labs and from its Flow platform, where there are more than 350 companies developing new products and experiences. So we will be watching that closely at Fast Company.

That's it for this episode of Most Innovative Companies. Subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you like the show, please leave us a rating or a review. I'm Amy Farley. Our producer is Avery Miles.