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cover of episode Lilly Singh on being intentional when creating new projects

Lilly Singh on being intentional when creating new projects

2023/12/13
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Most Innovative Companies

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Lilly Singh:从独自创作YouTube视频到参与电影电视制作,她的创作历程发生了巨大转变。早期独自创作让她全面了解创作流程,但也让她压力巨大,难以在各个方面做到精益求精。如今,她更专注于单一角色的扮演,并能更好地与团队合作,充分发挥自身优势。她创立的Unicorn Island Productions致力于创作反映真实世界的多元化故事,尤其关注弱势群体的视角,并让女性角色成为故事的核心。她认为真正的多元化代表着各种类型的故事,包括那些挑战刻板印象的故事。她制作的儿童动画片《Mindful Adventures of Unicorn Island》旨在向孩子们传授正念练习,并以此作为对年少时期的自己的致敬。在人才培养方面,她积极寻找和培养多元化人才,但同时也面临着行业中存在的“再次证明”偏见。她即将上映的电影探讨了女性赋权、羞耻感和性等主题,并预计会引发观众的各种反应。 Yasmin Gagne & Josh Christensen:两位主持人与Lilly Singh 就其创作历程、公司理念、对行业现状的看法以及对一些社会现象的观点进行了深入探讨,并穿插了一些轻松的游戏环节。

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Lilly Singh expresses her doubts about her ability to succeed as a content creator if she were starting today, particularly on platforms like TikTok, due to the rapid pace and short-form nature of content, contrasting it with her preference for deeper, more thoughtful storytelling.

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Welcome to Most Innovative Companies. I'm your host, Yasmin Gagne, joined as always by my producer, Josh Christensen. Hey, Yas. Josh, if you were a creator, like if you were a YouTuber, what would be your shtick? We've had this conversation before, but I do think it changes. I've talked before about cocktail talk, being like a mixologist and making cocktails. That's the most millennial thing ever.

Remember when like in the 2000s, I mean, I don't even drink, but you'd be like, I want a Mai Tai or whatever. This guy would spend like 20 minutes doing stuff. Just making a Mai Tai. Yeah, no, that's the kind of thing. But I do like cocktails. I think that's fun. But I think I'm over that now. I think I would be, I mean, I'm a big musical theater nerd, as we've discussed. I'd probably make like- Would you do like that SNL audition to TikTok?

No, that TikTok is rough. I hope that guy's doing okay. I absolutely would not. That guy got dragged so hard for good reason. I know. Overall. He was just a guy trying. No, I think I would just talk, though, about musical theater and theater and stuff. It's more like an arts criticism sort of thing.

I'd be an ASMR person. There you go. Also, considering the fact that we are technically creators, because we're making content right now, what would you do? We have no discernible skills. Anyways, like, rate, and subscribe to Most Innovative Companies. So we have one of the most successful creators of all time on the show today. That's Lilly Singh. She started out on YouTube. She had a talk show. She's got a movie coming up. A production company. She's got a production company.

So let's get right into it with her. You started off, I mean, you're one of the most famous creators out there. You really did everything yourself at the beginning. Is it easier or harder to be a creator now? Ooh.

it's different. I mean, here's the reality is like there's things I loved about creating on my own. For those of you watching, you don't know this, but before you watch this clip, I actually walked into the sound booth and I like tried adjusting the light and I moved the camera and I moved the knob over here and I was like, I'm going to fix the sound and I'm going to move the mic. So like,

I have a thorough understanding of every part of the creation process because I did it all myself. I was my own gaffer, my own videographer, my own writer, my own editor, my own everything. And that was very fun, but it was also a lot of stress. And it was a lot of me being good at a lot of things, but

excellent at none of them. And now that I create, when I go onto a set, I think I'm actually able to fully sit in one job, in one part of creation, because I can fully dive into my job is now to be this character, to say these lines, to be in this world. I don't have to worry about the lighting and the props and all these other things.

It stresses out the control freak in me, but it actually really, really is good for the creator in me. Did it take you a while to be able to just sit in one job? Like when you first moved out of that, I'm doing everything role. Like how long did it take you to adjust? It's a learning process. I still, as you can see when I walked into the sound booth, it is still something that I'm like, even on shows right now, when I'm on set for a show or movie, I'm like,

Hey guys, I just want to double check this prop and the prop guy is like, we got it. Don't worry, we know. Right, right, right. This is your job. You know more than me. And I just have this compulsion and I feel bad sometimes because I think sometimes it may come across a little bit of like I'm trying to micromanage, but it is because so much of my journey has been me being

wearing all these hats. But I will say one of the reasons I give myself grace is I've had more than one, I'm going to pat myself on the back for a second. I've had more than one director approach me on a set and say, I've never worked with someone who has such a thorough understanding of editing and what this will look like once it's edited.

Because I'm so used to doing everything, I think I am actually better suited to do one job because I can fully respect what this editor is going to have to do to fix this thing that I just messed up. And I know it's better for me to do it again because I know what that edit feels like. You know what I'm saying? Whereas a lot of talent's like, they'll fix it in post. I'm like, I actually know they can't fix this in post. So I'm editing in my brain as I'm acting. Do you think you could be a TikToker today? Like if you were just up and coming right now, no.

No. I think I would try my darn best. How's your dance skills? I like short form content. Don't get me wrong. Like, I love making stuff for Instagram and I love making things for YouTube. TikTok is just amazing.

a little too short form for me. I respect it in that it's like one joke, whatever. And I think it's really cool. And I laugh at a lot of TikToks. But me, myself, I don't know if I'd be, I don't know. I really don't know if I'd be able to execute today if I was starting today. Yeah. I'm curious, you know, you obviously started out doing everything on your own. How have you found collaborators? And do you collaborate with the same people over and over again? Or are you sort of always changing? So when I was

making YouTube videos, collaborations was like the name of the game. It was like, yo, we got to collab together. Collabs were everything. I feel like now less and less people collab. I feel like it's like a dying art form. But I was always a very prepared person. I'm a proud type A personality. I would always have a full script, all the props ready to go. And then sometimes I collab with people and be like, all right, should we just like figure it out and do a challenge? And I'm like, mm,

But I've always been very prepared. Listen, what I do really enjoy, I will say, right now because I'm writing longer form things and because I'm working in TV and film. Like I said, one is not better than the other. I still really love content online. It's just I'm really enjoying, like I said, sitting in things more. Collaborating now with someone, like I just co-wrote my first feature and I did it alongside other writers. It's really nice to say, oh, we're going to spend the next month

cracking the story as opposed to like, all right, in the next hour, we're going to have to figure this out, shoot it, edit it, post it, shoot some thumbnails, which is like a different machine. But I don't know. I'm just enjoying making more mistakes during the creation process. On YouTube, it was like you write the thing, you don't workshop it that much. You do it, at least in my experience, you do it and you post it. Now I'm like, oh, we wrote this whole scene that we spent hours working on. We're scrapping it.

We're scrapping it because it's not fully capturing what we want to say. It's like more of a like you're building a baby. What was the moment, you know, when you were making YouTube videos where you were like, you know what, I think I can make this transition to film and TV? Yeah, I never really.

really even thought about it that way to be honest. I never thought of like okay I was doing YouTube and now I'm ready to do TV film. I got the opportunity of the late night show and that was really exciting for me because who doesn't want their own show and I stepped into this world and it was through the late night show that I really learned about for lack of better term traditional media. I remember the first time I walked onto set someone came up to me and they're like hey I'm your script supervisor and as soon as I walked away I was like what's a script supervisor?

Like, what does this person do? There's 100 people here. I don't know what they do. And then I had to, like, hit certain marks and listen to certain cues. And it was, like, such a steep learning curve. But I really enjoyed the fact that I was working with so many people that were all on the same page and had the same mission. And so I think naturally, as I've progressed in this industry, I've enjoyed being on larger sets. Not to say I don't really enjoy making an IG reel in my house by myself as well, but it's just a different part of my brain, you know?

Do you have a favorite guest from your late night show? Ooh, that's a really good question. Do you have a least favorite guest? Ooh, that's a better question. Name names. I'm going to answer one of those questions. I had a lot of guests that I really, really... Okay, so there's a guest that comes to mind where I just recall...

having the best time with them. I'm going to say the most fun guest for me to talk to that I just like laughed and laughed and actually we had to edit it so immensely because there was just laughing fits of me and this person. They were on both seasons. Yeah, Tracee Ellis Ross. I feel like when I talk to her, I have the best time.

Tracy was just at Fast Company Innovation Festival on the main stage this past year, and she is just at an 11 in the best way with just the velocity of jokes and energy. She's incredible. She's absolutely amazing. Otherwise, I'll give you one more from a more like...

spiritual meant a lot to me my final guest of season one was Malala and that's when you're like okay I'm in the presence of like an actual superhero right now and fun fact Malala posted her first selfie ever and it was with me so do you have a Nobel Peace Prize now by association so now curiously I also have a Nobel Peace Prize exactly

It's so funny. I have a couple of mutual friends with Malala. Okay, flex. Wait, what? I'm sorry, what? No big deal, whatever. We've been doing this podcast for six months. I swear, at least once a month, Yaz says something to me where I just go, what? Excuse me? Yeah, damn. What is your life? Subtle flex. Well, look, Malala has goals for me to have on this podcast, but I've been like, guys, what is she like? To my friend Shilpa, I'm like, what is Malala like? She's so cool. And they were like, she's super normal.

She's always like, hey, dude, I have a hot husband. Yeah, totally. And you know what another thing is? So I call her and her husband mom and dad, and they know this. I would DM them. They're like, mom and dad. But I will say what took me aback is, like, I think we all have this conception of what we think someone like Malala is going to be like. 100%. Literally, like, faced fear in the face, like, huge advocate of girls' education. You believe she's going to be super serious and super, like— Totally. Totally.

And she's just like cracking jokes and she's just like a normal girl. And you're just like, oh, wow. Like it really is actually quite meaningful to remind us all that like all of these people that do amazing things, they are just normal people like us. Yeah, they're humans. So I want to talk a little bit about your production company. Please. What inspired you to start it? When did you start it? Why?

Yeah, I started. So I have a company called Unicorn Island and it has a production arm, Unicorn Island Productions and a nonprofit arm, which is Unicorn Island Fund. I just love unicorns so much and I'm an adult and I can name my company whenever I want. And so I started Unicorn Island Productions a few years ago, you know, right in time for us to go into COVID and then a strike. Always good. Yeah, exactly. But the reason I started

it was because, listen, I think throughout my career, I've gotten asked a lot, like, what do you do? Like, what is, how would you define your job? And it's been a struggle for me because I've gone from, like, YouTuber to late night show host to actress to writer. And I think really what I am at heart is a storyteller. I think I love telling stories and I find different mediums and different canvases to do so. And Unicorn Island Productions is definitely

just the natural evolution of my desire to storytell. Our mandate is simple. It's making stories that look like the real world. And so it is quite often making stories that highlight, well, it's always making stories that highlight underrepresented voices. More and more, that's becoming South Asian voices and ensuring that women are at the center of our stories. Well, that's good because I am both of those. Yes, exactly. I'm just trying to make things where I'm like,

Dude, I wish this existed when I was little. I think it's important that diverse stories are told by diverse people, and I think their experiences should be authentic. So often in the creation, like just to keep it 100 with you, so often in this industry, I have an idea, and then I go into a meeting with 10 other people that perhaps don't have the same life experiences as me or are not from the same culture, and then I get a gang of notes and a gang of ideas, which I respect, but I'm also just like...

There needs to be space for people to tell their own stories. And I'm not saying that my production company has now solved that and now I never go into a meeting and I never have to take notes. That's not true. But at least now I can be at the table advocating for why certain stories should be told a certain way. You know, I feel like I have more of a voice now in that process. It's true.

It's so funny. You know, I interviewed Rishi Rajani from Hillman Grad Productions a while ago. Yeah, of course. I love Rishi. And we were joking about he was like, every time a brown person pitches something, his studio is like, do you have an idea for like an arranged marriage kind of rom-com?

Well, this is the thing that I also have discovered. Right now, Hollywood cannot comprehend a South Asian person unless it is through the lens of their parents. And as someone who made content dressing up as my parents, I understand that.

Family is a big, big part of South Asian culture, so I understand that. But I've noticed that every time I'm trying to make a show that's like about siblings or is about just a girl and her relationship or a girl at work, the note is consistently, okay, but what about her family? Like, are her parents there? What do her parents think about this? So I think there's just like, the current struggle is being able to form full South Asian characters that are not tied to this trope of like strict parents.

Yeah, I 100% buy that. It's so funny. I remember in college, I was dating this guy and I'm half white, half Indian and Pakistani. So you were half allowed to date him? Yeah. Yeah, I was half allowed to date him. He was Jewish. I'm Muslim. And I remember he was like, how would your dad feel about this relationship? And I was like, dog, my dad's from Vermont. My dad was talking about this relationship. Like, what do you think? Do you think my parents are like these like strict brown people? But no, they all

so get why people think that because sometimes it is true. Like, sometimes I'll be like, my parents are so liberal and then be like, oh, so they let you do X, Y, Z. And I was like, no. No.

There's like a different bar of measurement. But what I'm trying to say is that like when we talk about representation, in my opinion, true representation means you can have all types of stories. You know, you can have a story that pushes the needle for South Asians. It's like so about history is important. Then you can have something like Never Have I Ever, which like, yo, she just wants to have sex in high school. And that is OK because that's what true representation is. And my take on it. All right.

I do often joke, though, I'm like, you know how true representation or true equality is when, like, people of color are allowed to fail? And I'm like, when I look at politics, I'm like, we have Nikki Haley, we have Bobby Jindal. Bobby! It's when we're allowed to fail. And it's also when true representation is when someone sitting at home that is South Asian doesn't feel like this show with South Asians has to replicate everything.

Every life experience they had, and they're okay with that. Because I think right now what's happening is...

Everything that is minority is so heavily scrutinized because every minority group is looking to this one thing or these two things to represent all of us. And that's just never going to happen. I did an interview a couple of years ago with a lawyer from the Trans Legal Defense Fund. And he said, he's like, all I want to do is be mediocre and trans. Is that so much to ask? Because you have to be excellent if you're a minority. You have to be excellent. Tell me about some of the prejudices.

projects Unicorn Island is working on. Totally. I mean, we have a slate full of TV, film, all types of things. Actually, one that I'm super, super proud about that just recently released is called The Mindful Adventures of Unicorn Island. There's a kids' animation. Unicorn Island Productions, my company alongside Headspace, actually,

And it's so meaningful to me because essentially they're quick 10-minute episodes. And here's the thing. They're for free. They're free, which is wild. We like free. Who doesn't like free? They're for free on YouTube. Each episode teaches kids one mindfulness exercise. And it's kind of like a love letter to younger Lily because in my adult life, meditation and mindfulness and mental health are so important. But admittedly, when I was younger, I knew nothing.

nothing about this. Like it was never discussed in school or at home. And I'm just like, if kids could learn how to meditate and regulate their emotions, not even regulate, just like know that feeling things is okay and how to deal with that and how to reconcile that, that would be amazing. It's basically a young Lily learns how to meditate and through meditation gets transported into the magical world of Unicorn Island where she has all these imaginary friends and together they have to solve a problem with one mindfulness exercise. And it's like,

Something I'm really, really proud of because when we think about creating content, let's be real, there's a lot of crap out there. There's a lot of stuff. A lot of bad content out there. These days, you watch a show and you talk to someone else and they've never even heard of the show. There's just so much stuff out there. And I'm like, if I'm going to create something, let it be intentional. Let it be for a reason. Let it be something that I think the world needs and can benefit from. And when I think about that, I think this show is a perfect example where it's like so many parents have messaged me being like,

my child is obsessed with just, like, deep breathing now. Or, like, is obsessed with leading meditations with the family now, which is really, really cool. And the cast is majority South Asian, which is super cool because the show looks like the real world. It's a super diverse cast. Kal Penn's in it. Padma Lakshmi's in it. Garshan Bhatkar's in it. So I'm really proud of it. You got all the brothers and sisters. I called them up and I said, you don't have a choice. You don't have a choice. You had the family WhatsApp going. Exactly, exactly. Hit them in the WhatsApps. Yeah.

You know, I'm curious how you sort of spot and cultivate new talent. That's a great question. I am very at and I'm just going to keep this 100 with you because I don't know how to be any other way. It is always my mission to try my best to make sure diverse voices are part of every project we do because of what I said. I want to make sure they're helming the creativity of these projects. Sometimes that's easy and sometimes it's very, very hard.

And it's because of this idea that to be a showrunner, to be on this show, for someone, X, Y, Z streamer to buy this show, you need someone experienced at the helm. It is very hard to find very experienced, diverse people sometimes. Not always, but sometimes. And it's because of this idea of like...

It's called like a prove-it-again bias. It happens with men and women in gender inequality studies as well. But this idea that certain groups of people have to prove themselves whereas other groups of people get the benefit of the doubt. And I've seen that happen time and time again where like there will be a white showrunner which maybe doesn't have that much experience but like for some reason everyone trusts they can do this thing, you know. Yeah. And then there'll be a equally less experienced person.

Person of color where it's like, I don't know if they have the experience. This is a really tough job. I've seen that happen a lot where it's like we keep giving the benefit of the doubt to the same people. I keep trying to create opportunities for people to get experience. Sometimes I win those battles. Sometimes I do not with the people that are buying these shows. But I'm going to keep goddamn trying. That is my answer is that I am actively always looking for writers and characters that I can give a chance and give some experience to. And so far I'm pleased with our success rate. It's not perfect, but I'm pleased with it.

If you want a middle-aged, half-brown woman for a low-stakes, quite boring reality TV show, I'm here. Wow. I mean, hey. That is a very specific project. There's an audience for everything. There's an audience for everything. Do you want something—I think there needs to be a category of shows on a streaming service that just says shows that are good to watch while you're looking at your phone. Yeah. That actually would be really good. That's a really good idea. Yeah. Yeah.

Because I just resort to re-watching old sitcoms and Real Housewives episodes. Yeah, it's reality TV for me. And I need new stuff that I cannot pay attention to. So here's a hot take, unpopular. Maybe it's because of my tight anus. I'm not sure. I simply refuse. Like, I feel very strongly about this.

I do not do anything while I'm watching TV or movies. How do you get anything done? If I miss even a sentence of what was said, I will pause it and rewind it. Like, I need to hear everything that's said. I cannot be on my phone. I will not do anything. I just, like, love stories that much where I'm like, no, I missed it. Like, my friends know, my biggest pet peeve, like, if you really want to break my heart, you're going to make me miss the first five minutes of a movie in a theater. And I will be devastated. I will be devastated by that. Like, I can't have that happen.

There's a certain category where I'm like, nothing else can happen. Like if I'm watching like Severance or something like that, especially like I love sci-fi or like thrillers or stuff that's like really deep and weedy. Do not talk. Do not say anything. But this is why we need a category of shows that you don't have to pay attention to. Floribama Shore. I used to have Game of Thrones parties and the one rule was you cannot speak during the episode. And people thought I was joking and they found out the hard way. I was like, no.

Like, you cannot speak during the episode. That's really funny. So one last question before we move on to games, which is, is there any content coming up that you want to preview from Unicorn Island? I don't want to give away too much, but one thing I will say is that I just actually co-wrote my first feature that I'm very proud of. I think I already said this, but I'll say it again. Yeah. It was very outside of my comfort zone.

I'm part of the film as well. I'm the lead of the film. I co-wrote it. It was a different muscle I exercised in my brain. And it goes there. Like, I'm all about empowering women and making stuff that shifts the culture of how girls and women are treated. And this does that. And I think the reaction is going to be a lot of people that are like, wow, this is, like, dope. And I think it is going to evoke some reactions that are like, oh, this is, like, super.

slightly uncomfortable and slightly, I don't know, it deals with shame a lot and it deals with like sexual stuff and, you know, South Asians. So it's bound to, it's bound to evoke some reactions. Yeah.

I like that. I like that. Shame, sex, and South Asians. Yeah, there it is. It's going to be my autobiography. Let's move on to games. Let's move on to games. Let's do it. So let's start. The first one we're going to do is a game we do at Fast Company here called Fast Cards. It's just real quick-fire questions about...

Work-related issues and Fast Company topic-related issues. So we need your hot takes. Hot takes. Okay, cool. Yeah, it's not deep issues. It's very simple. So let's get started. Our first question. If you had to switch careers tomorrow, what would you choose? So easy, event planner. I'm so good at it. I love setting a table. I love making charcuterie boards. I am actually already an event planner half. So like if I could set someone's table, if they said come over and set my table, I would be ecstatic.

You would Uber? You would UberX? Correct. At what price point of an Uber would you not go set the table? Let me just say this. If someone said, I need you to make me a charcuterie board, I would pay them to do it. I mean, that's not usually the way event planning works. You should get paid for that. And those are expensive. So maybe it's good you're doing what you're doing. Cheese is expensive. This is an investment. These are investments here. You want to get a camembert? And I wouldn't just bring basic honey. I would bring honeycomb. Like, I'm going to go in. I'm going to go in on this. Yeah.

You don't do anything by half measure. Correct. I'm for that. That goes with the type A personality. I feel like a charcuterie board is the go-to type A person. Oh, really? Can I be honest? I feel like charcuterie boards are white people shit. I'm really not into them. This is the hottest take we've heard. I'm going to change your mind. Now I'm really self-conscious because I love charcuterie boards. Maybe the ones you have

But I'm telling you, there's a way to make them pop a little spice, a little something. OK, I feel like I know so many white girls who are like, oh, yeah, I made a little charcuterie board for myself for dinner. I'm like, girl, that is not a dinner. Yeah, I don't need it for dinner. Girl dinner. That's the trend. Let's go to the next question. In 2023, work life balance. Has that been a myth or a reality for you?

Sometimes. Here's my honest answer is I think people have a skewed perception of what work-life balance is. I think people think that means every day you do 50% work and 50% other stuff, and I don't think that's true. I think work-life balance comes in seasons. That means, like, you work really hard for the week and maybe you go off on the weekend. I got to shoot a show for a month, I'm going to work so hard on the month, and then I'm going to go on vacation for a week. I think it comes in seasons, and I think there's this little bit of, like, delusion that is that it can happen every single day. Personally, for me, it cannot happen every single day.

No, I think that's absolutely right. I'm with you. Well, actually, it's just a myth for me, but that's fine. I mean, we're journalists. We don't run on cigarettes and whiskey. I think some people are on their high horse a little bit when they see my career. They're like, oh my God, you must be so unhealthy if you work this many days. I'm like, yes, when I'm shooting a show, it is 15 hours a day. I wake up really early. I come home. I eat. I take a shower. I go to sleep. That is the nature of my job.

Every industry is different. To have this one idea of what work-life balance looks like and then apply it to every industry is just not realistic. And it's different for every person. Totally, yeah. Next question. So Shein, the fast fashion company, has been in the news a lot. We did an episode last week on it. So this question, very simple. Sustainable fashion, important or not? Of course.

Of course important. Anything sustainable is important. I think we need to stop being like naive to the fact that the world is on fire. Like it's very clearly on fire. There's a lot of issues, in fact, climate, gender inequality, all these things. It's like now is the time, folks, to start to actually know. Years ago was the time to start taking these things seriously. Yeah, I was going to say circa 1970. Right. It is absolutely important.

Next question. What's your pump-up song before a big meeting? Or shoot, I'll throw that in there too. Okay, I'll give you one better. I have a song, a go-to song. Anytime I am tired, I'm feeling like I don't have energy. I want a song that just makes me happy without fail and just sing and dance and be energized. It's always one song. It is Down by Jay Sean.

Oh my God, baby, are you down, down, down, down, down. I just had him perform at my party too and he performed it live and it was everything I needed. But for some reason, I don't know if it's because I'm just waiting to rap Lil Wayne's part and I'm like, here it comes. I'm going to crush this. I'm going to crush this. I know every word. I just, that song does something for me emotionally. I love that. What is he doing now? That song is old. He's singing. He's making, he actually has a new album.

a new album coming out. Oh, really? Yeah. Is it flute music like Andre 3000? No, it's actually going back to his South Asian roots a little bit. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. I remember there was a period where he was always taking his shirt off. Yeah, and nobody was mad at that, though. Nobody was mad at that. Now Jeremy Allen White's just taking that mantle. And no one's mad at that either. I'm fine with that, too. No, no one's mad. Especially because I'm pretty sure he lives a street down from me, and I see him when I go on my walks every morning almost, and I'm like, you can keep taking your shirt off. That's fine.

Do you walk by him and you're like, I love you? There's been like multiple occasions where I'm like, oh, there's Jeremy again. There's Jeremy again. Yeah, you could have been his new girlfriend. Damn it. What's the best piece of advice you received this year? Okay, I will quote my therapist like I often do.

My therapist and I are working on a theme for this year, and it is simple. It is just learning how to surrender and understanding that to surrender is not the same as giving up. In my brain, they were exactly the same, but they're not. One is about acceptance, and one is about just giving up, and I'm learning to accept and surrender.

I love that we're hitting like real highs and real like, you know, real relatable stuff. We went from like climate change to Jay Sean songs to real like. I have layers. I have layers. Yeah. What is the worst office etiquette you have ever witnessed?

The worst office etiquette. We're talking about people warming up fish in the communal microwave. We are talking about... I don't know, Amy Klobuchar throwing forks at people. I think that's pretty rough. No, using a comb to eat her salad. Yeah, that's right.

I don't know if this counts, but when I lived in Toronto still, one of my jobs was, I mean, quite possibly one of the worst jobs you could have. It was, and shout out to anyone that has this job because I know it's very tough. It was, I worked at a call center for a collections agency.

So I would call people to be like, you owe money. No one wants this phone call. No one is nice to this person that calls. But our boss was very verbally abusive. He would do this thing where if he was in a bad mood, he would walk onto the floor and he'd be like, everybody put your phones on mute. And we'd have to like put people on hold and whatever. And he would just

He'd yell at us for like two minutes. He'd be like, you guys are useless. You guys are wasting my money. And he'd be like going in deep for like two minutes a day. We'd go through this like verbal abuse by this boss. And they'd be like, all right, resume your calls. And then I'd be like, sorry for putting you on hold. Yes, some weird credit card information. Like it was weird. It was deranged.

Productive king. Yeah. Let's move on to some would you rathers. Yikes, this is a dark one. Would you rather be on the Titan submersible or would you rather be locked inside a self-driving car? You two are deranged and dark. Listen, listen. All jokes aside, I had nightmares about the Titan submersible. I was like that, I can't even imagine. Yeah.

Even best case scenario being on that thing, I cannot imagine. So I'm going to have to go self-driving car. I think I'm with you. Yeah. I think I'm with you. Also, drowning seems bad. Oh, God. Horrible. Anyway, now, Lily, we have come up with some hypothetical scenarios based on current events from this year. Okay. And we'd love to get your take on the following. Okay. So this year, Montana, the state, banned TikTok. If you could ban one app in one state or country, what would it be, where, and why? Okay.

I think it's already kind of happened, which I'm thrilled about. But I hate Twitter. I always hated Twitter. That's already kind of been changed now. It's now expert. Why have you always hated Twitter? I think it is the meanest hellscape of a place that exists on the internet. There is no accountability. Does it make you feel worse than Instagram? Because to me, Instagram makes me feel terrible. No, no. Let me tell you why.

Twitter was based on mob mentality. To know that you could trend dragging someone is like not good for humanity. That you could literally see someone suffering and be like, I'm going to jump on this bag. No other social platform really has that ability to be like, we're all going to drag this one person. Look, their name's at the top of your screen. Join us in drag. And I just feel like there's such a lack of accountability on Twitter because

You don't need to have a picture. You just kind of say something, you disappear. There's no conversation. I hated Twitter. So I would say Twitter, America, it's already kind of happening.

Have you ever been dragged? Oh, have I? I think you mean how many times have I been dragged? How did you deal with it? I cried. I cried and I go to lots of therapy. But also, I stopped using Twitter like years ago. I've been on Twitter for like four years or something like that. What's your platform of choice? I do like Instagram the best. You're a millennial. Yeah. Same here. Same here. Yeah. Yeah, Instagram's kind of the go-to now. I try not to do Twitter anymore. None of us do.

Speaking of things I personally want to stay away from, I want to zip through a few fashion trends that have returned or are returning from the aughts. And I want to get your take on basically love it or leave it. Trucker hats. I like them. Really? Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. I love hats in general. It means I don't have to do my hair. That's fair. That's a good point. Body jewelry. I have a belly button ring, so I feel like I'm biased. I feel like to each their own. I'm not mad at that. I thought about getting a belly button ring on my 30th birthday, and I was like, actually, it's so sad. That's a weird birthday to get a belly button ring on, but I support you. It's actually right when you're... Yeah. I say go for it. Do you. Embrace it, baby. Yeah.

Capri pants. That's going to be a hard no for me. That's a hard no for me. The length is just awkward and I have ashy ankles and it's a whole thing. I too have ashy ankles. Wearing a tie with a t-shirt. Uh,

I'm going to say no to that one. That one's giving unnecessary. I feel like you should just get one of the other, casual or formal. Yeah, but what if you're wearing a photographer's vest on top of that as well? Oh, and a fedora? Then that changes things. So actually, this is where I was going with this. What about a structured vest? Do you remember a point in the 2000s when we were all wearing like slutty office wear to the club? Yes. I love a structured vest.

I'm not mad at a structured vest. I love those. Dresses over jeans. Absolutely not. That needs to never come back again. Is that back? Don't tell me that's back.

It's bubbling up. It's bubbling up. Oh my God. No, that's a hard no. Cargo pants. I own cargo pants. So that's a yes from me. Remember the cargo pants that there was like a zipper at the knee so you could turn them into shorts? Oh yeah. And those were amazing. Multifunctional. Who doesn't like that? I get hot very easily during the day. So those were ideal for me. I remember like going to visit my grandparents and being at the airport and being like, mom, I don't need to carry on. Like,

loading up my cargo pants with like my CD player or whatever. Oh, that was great. Yeah, you did need cargo pants to hold that disc, man. Yeah, facts. My last one, and I find this, I can't figure out where I land on this.

low-rise jeans. I have never felt more strongly about saying, hell no. I don't know why low-rise jeans exist. They need to never come back. They were the bane of my existence. Nobody likes the way they feel. That needs to die forever. And when you sit down and the sort of paranoia you feel when you sit down in low-rise jeans. What are you accomplishing? Nothing good comes of low-rise jeans. Nothing. Nothing.

So rather than keeping tabs this week, we're going to do something different, which is now Lily's gone, I'm just going to play some games with Josh. Yeah, end of 2023. End of 2023. We're getting to the holidays and we all need a break. So I'm here to ask you this. Which reality TV show should George Santos appear on now? Oh, there's so many good ideas. I mean, there's an obvious one that's kind of like chalk. It's

It's Celebrity Big Brother. That seems like the most chalk answer. I personally think he would be best suited for the Peacock reality TV show called Traitors. Have you watched this? It's hosted by Alan Cumming. I enjoyed it. It got a little confusing. It does get a little convoluted. Because I'm not very smart. Imagine inserting George Santos in that situation. Because it's all about lying. So it'd be perfect.

But he'd be so good in literally any situation. He'd be so good on 90 Day Fiance. Yeah, it would be good. I mean, I think maybe they should just build a reality TV show around him. What would he sing if he was on The Masked Singer? Oh, God. What's the sort of like quasi on the nose? I want him to sing like I Need a Hero by Bonnie Tyler. Oh, that would be good. I'm trying to think of like songs where it actually talks about like being a

You're So Vain. Oh, You're So Vain would be good. Is it called Space Cowboy? The Joker. Oh, Space Cowboy. Some call me the gangster. And just replace it with all the things he's called himself. I like that. Did you watch SNL? Well, what would now be a couple weeks ago? But I've heard so much about it. Yeah, there was Bowen Yang did a version of Candle in the Wind called Scandal in the Wind as George Santos. It was good. He wouldn't.

last on Survivor but his time on screen would be memorable. Well that's exactly why like Big Brother is the kind of like go-to thing. I would personally if they ever bring back Super Secret Celebrity Drag Race you could do that one although I don't think RuPaul would ever let George Santos onto his set. I

I don't know. RuPaul supports fracking famously. So that's true. He's kind of a mystery. So Drag Race is an option, especially if you want to spice some stunt casting could spice up that series. Bring him right to All-Star. And let's be real. He'd be so good on any Housewife franchise. Any Housewife franchise would be great as like a friend of the franchise. So it's just like you can float in and out because I feel like too much George Santos might get...

Annoying. Annoying, but if he just shows up and throws drinks on people, it's just amazing. The most ideal Housewives franchise he could end up on. I mean, obviously he's from New York, but he wouldn't fit in with this New York cast. No, no, no, they're too accomplished. Being a friend of Ramona Singer, though, would actually be on brand. That would make a lot of sense. OG New York Housewives cast would be the go-to one.

Okay, now we're moving on to another game. It's a quick fire round. Woo! And I want to ask you who would win in a fight in each of these scenarios.

Okay. Is this, oh, I know what this is inspired by. Musk versus Zuck. Oh, it's Zuckerberg, hands down. Have you seen either of those two? Like, Zuck's like low-key yoked. I feel like Musk would fight dirty, though. Do you think Zuck would? You know that scene in Gladiator? Do you see what Zuck did to the Winklevoss twins? You don't think he would fight dirty? It's true. No, he totally would. But do you remember that scene in Gladiator where Joaquin Phoenix like stabs

stabs Russell Crowe before he comes on. I feel like that would happen. That does make sense. That would be there. Okay, Grimace versus Gritty. Gritty, I mean, you want to talk about, like, fighting dirty. That man, man, I don't know if it's a gendered, but that entity. Gritty has the spirit of Eagles fans in him. He has the spirit of Philly people. Philly, yeah, the Philly brotherhood. Unless, like, unless Grimace, Grimace would have to be crafty and somehow trick Grimace

Gritty into drinking the Grimace shake in order to poison him. Gritty is not that smart. But Gritty is a brawler. Like, not a lot of intellect. We should have a proxy fight where you're Grimace and Philly native Max Offberg is Gritty in the office. If we can get the costumes, I would do it. Okay, Robert De Niro versus Al Pacino. Is it Young Robert De Niro and Al Pacino? Young, young, young, young. Al Pacino.

Al Pacino. No, no, no, no. De Niro is strong. De Niro is... Like raging bull strong. Al Pacino is crazy though. Al Pacino is crazy. That's the art. He starts doing... No, it's definitely De Niro though. Yeah, you're probably right. Okay. Matt Rife versus the plastic surgeon he got mad at on TikTok.

Oh my God. I mean, just the plastics. I saw that come up. It's obviously not a plastic surgeon. I don't know if Matt Rife got a chin implant, but if you haven't heard about this Matt Rife thing, do a deep dive on it. It's like the most like distilled version of just like the everything that's wrong with the male comedians crying like cancel culture nonsense. So wait, what?

I saw this and I didn't fully understand it. Some plastic surgeon was like, I surgeoned Matt Rice's jaw. And he was like, no, you didn't. It was like this cryptic thing, but basically because there's basically this theory that like Matt Rice got plastic surgery to give him this like chiseled jaw line. We call it looks maxing in my business. Yeah. The incel business. The incel business.

That's your business? Anyway. I like that. That's great. But Matt Reif. It's almost certainly not his doctor because that would be a HIPAA violation in a lot of different ways. But this random person, maybe a doctor, posted this thing alluding to that he did Matt Reif's jaw surgery and Matt Reif engaged with it. Just further stridesanding affecting himself.

Yeah, the full accounting of the Matt Rife timeline is just so stupid. Makes you Miss Dane Cook, am I right? Okay, but that's... I'm going off on a tangent about Matt Rife. We don't need to. We don't need all of that. There is a business...

Fast Company reality to some of these things because it's about how these platforms affect the creative output that we see. Matt Reif nominated for least creative. Least creative person. Least creative person. That's what I nominated for. But oh, I want to do one more game with you. Okay. And this is a play on the classic fuck, marry, kill game, but we'll put an office friendly approach to it and we're going to call it Temp, Hire, Fire. So temp would be F. Fuck. Yeah.

Fire would be marry and fire would be kill. So first category, I'm calling this the tech bro category. So,

Temp, hire, fire. I keep wanting to say fuck, marry, kill. I know, I know. It's fine. We can revert to it at some point. Temp, hire, fire, though. Sam Altman, Sam Bankman-Fried, or Elon Musk? All right, we got to kill Elon. Yeah, it's an obvious one. Feels like that needs to happen. I feel like maybe it's temp Sam Bankman-Fried so that he doesn't do too much damage in the office. We need to learn what the rules of his work release program are first. Fair. Fair.

And I guess a reluctant hire Sam Altman. Sort of like the board of OpenAI did. Yeah, it's a little bit there. The reluctant rehire of Sam. The reluctant rehire. I would go the same way. Really? I would go the same way. Yeah. Couldn't pay me to work with, which is how jobs work. You couldn't pay me to work with Elon Musk.

Let's move to one of our favorite categories, reality TV category. So, temp, hire, fire. Gary the Golden Bachelor, Tom Sandoval of Vanderpump Rules. Oh my God, I almost forgot that. Scandoval and Uche from Love is Blind. Okay.

I'm going to hire Gary the Golden Bachelor because I believe in hiring older people. Also, if you need a hot tub installed. And he seems pretty, you know, that new Hollywood reporter expose about him. Yeah. Basically just implied that he's broke as shit. I still like him. So we're hiring him because we know he needs the money. Gary needs money. We'll hire you, Gary. And then Tom said,

Sandoval and Uche were two of our biggest villains. I guess I would temp Uche from Love is Blind because though he is manipulative, he is a lawyer.

So he has some amount of competence. Tom Sandoval, just off-putting presence overall. Not our guy. That's a hard fire. We're going to move on. It's a no for me, dog. Let's move on. I've got one more. And again, of course, because we have to come back to our favorite person in the world. Our man. We already know what he's getting. Temp, hire, fire. George Santos, Kevin McCarthy, or Mike Johnson, new Speaker of the House?

I changed it. I know. I know. Well, look, we're hiring George Santos. He's clearly the most fun colleague ever. Oh, yeah. I mean, he'd steal from your company. He's going to embezzle. Going to embezzle. Going to be a great Christmas party, though. But really fun at the Christmas party. Yeah. I'm for it. He's the guy at the water cooler being like, did you know? Oh, yeah. Straight gossip. Hot goss. If you want the hot goss, go to George Santos. 40% of it is true. Yeah.

And now the battle between temping and firing the former and now current Speaker of the House. I think we got to fire the former Speaker of the House. I mean, he's already been fired. Yeah, exactly. And he could have won. I don't know if he could have won, but like he was close. You know, like he's not a closer. He's not a closer. ABC, always be closing. Always be closing, Kevin McCarthy. And I guess the current one, look. We'll give him a chance. He's an ideas guy. He's got some big ideas, like the themes.

The Noah's Ark theme park. Also, did you hear the Covenant Eyes app that he does with his son? Do you know this? No. It's an app that on your phone that monitors your like browsing history. And you have a partner in it for accountability. So him and his son are their accountability buddies. They're watching porn together. That's what I think. Yeah, it's exactly it. It basically tells the other person if you've been, you know, watching porn or online.

other scandalous sites. Why do you need an accountability buddy for that? I don't know, but if you're going to pick someone, maybe not a blood relative. It's so dark. Yeah, it's a lot. I did hear about this. I'm going to fire Mike Johnson. You're going to fire Mike Johnson? I'm going to tempt Kevin McCarthy. But I feel like Mike Johnson would not be in our office for long, but would flame out in the craziest way possible.

Which would be kind of fun. But Kevin McCarthy already did that, so I know he's going to flame out in a spectacular way. Yeah, but Mike Johnson would watch porn at work or something. He'd be like, no. Oh, jeez. Yeah, that's real dark. But all that really matters is that George Santos contracts Waitin' Buddy and open invitation to come on this podcast. Please. After you do Z-Way. No! After you do... Come to us beforehand. Yes. Yes.

Our show is produced by Avery Miles and Blake Odom, mixed and sound designed by Nicholas Torres, and our executive producer is Josh Christensen. Remember again to subscribe, rate, and review, and we'll see you next week.