SKIMS’ CEO on how Kim Kardashian is like Michael Jordan—and Starbucks
48:59 Share

Welcome to Most Innovative Companies. I'm your host, Yasmin Ghani, joined as always by my producer, Josh Christensen. Hey, Josh. Hey, Yas. Josh, what is the most insulting thing anyone has ever said to you? Well, for, you know, a theater kid, there's been many things that I probably can't say on this show that I've been called. You're no Jean Valjean.

You're no Jon Falshon. Yo, your passaggio's rough, bro. That's...

That's a very deep thing. Anyways, I don't know. I think the thing that always gets me that I bristle at is I was in school, in elementary school, I think, like fifth or sixth grade, and someone made fun of me for using a big word. Did you use it wrong? No, I used it right, but they were basically like,

you're being condescending or you're being like a nerd or something like that. I don't know. It's really not that bad, but it sticks with me to this day where I still like have like that imposter syndrome where I was like, oh, I don't want to come off like a certain way. Yeah. Well, no, I bring it up because we've had largely good reviews for our podcast and please listeners keep reviewing rating and reviewing us. Well, you don't have anything I say, don't say it. But we recently got a review calling us self-assumed cool people.

That's hysterical, because I think... Which is something I've never thought in my life. No, no, I think we're self-assumed incredible nerds. I think that's the kind of vibe. I always think of Pauly and Juno. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, no, that was my vibe. I was also just because I did all those things. I was as tall as I am now, which for listeners, I'm 6'3", but I was 160 pounds in high school. I was rail thin. So weird theater kid that was a skeleton and ran track. Not a great combination for being self-assumed cool. Well, before we move on and talk about the World Cup, do we have any housekeeping?

Yeah, so same thing we've been talking about the past few weeks. Just another reminder that the Fast Company Innovation Festival is coming up sooner than I think we're all ready for. And that is on sale on fastcompany.com. So we'll put a link in the show notes to where you can get tickets.

And that is in New York City the week of September 18th. There's a ton of cool stuff happening there and will be there. So MIC applications are open. So please, please, please apply or send it to a really innovative company of someone to apply there. And yeah, that link will be in the show notes as well.

Later on today's episode, I'll be talking with Skims co-founder and CEO Jens Greed about how Kim Kardashian is like the Michael Jordan of influencers. And that is, in fact, less crazy than it sounds. But first, we're here talking about the Women's World Cup. The International Soccer Championship is down to its final week. And by the time this airs,

We'll actually know who will be moving on to the final match. But for now, let's catch up on what's been going on and what this tournament means for pro women's sports. And we've got Fast Company Senior Editor Amy Farley and Staff Editor AJ Hess to break things down. Hey, Amy. Hey, AJ. Hey.

Hey, Yaz. Hey, Josh. Thanks for having me on. Hey, great to be here. To start off, you know, I want to talk a little bit about FIFA, the organization that is behind this and behind the Men's World Cup. And AJ, I'll ask you about this. I know the total prize pool has changed this year. What are some other changes that FIFA has made? Yeah.

Yeah, the biggest change is the size of the tournament. The Women's World Cup began in 1991 with 12 countries. In 1999, it increased to 16. In 2015, it expanded to 24. And this is the first year that the women's tournament has 32 teams. Beyond that, they also expanded the prize money. In 2019, the total prize money was $30 million. And this year, it's $110 million. So that's a pretty significant increase. But that doesn't make it equitable with the men's

team, right? No, unfortunately, not even close. In 2018, the FIFA men's tournament, the total prize money was $400 million. And in the 2022 World Cup, the total prize money for the men was $440 million. So there's still almost four times more money that the men are getting. For instance, the winning country, this tournament will take home $4.3 million. And when Argentina won the men's World Cup last year, they took home $42 million. So 10 times more.

How much of that money goes to the players? On the men's side, it's complicated. Each nation is able to determine how much players get. This year, FIFA has instituted some regulations that say that players will need to get a certain amount of that money. So out of that $4.3 million that the winners get, about $270,000 will go to each player. So

So I want to talk a little bit about things related to player compensation, like endorsement deals, like broadcast deals, because that area is also changing. Amy, tell me a little bit about the storytelling around this tournament. And let's actually start off, I should have said this earlier, that the tournament is taking place in New Zealand. So our listeners in the US are probably not awake for a lot of these games. Yeah, it's tough. The group stage games were at

at better hours and now they're starting to get more difficult. That said, the diehard fans are tuning in and it is the first time the Women's Cup has been played in the Southern Hemisphere. So I think that's exciting for people that are in Australia and New Zealand, at least. One thing I was going to say that's the difference between the 2019 tournament as well is that FIFA this year unbundled the broadcasting rights for the Women's Tournament from the Men's Tournament. They used to sell them together as a package.

And they thought because the interest in women's soccer has grown so exponentially in recent years that they would get more money by unbundling them. I don't know the exact number.

details of what happened, but they sort of fumbled that. And what ended up happening is that the broadcasting deals across the globe ended up coming together at the last minute. And there's some random streaming networks that are showing games. Apparently it is like really difficult to watch the game if you are not actually in the stadiums in Australia, which is pretty remarkable. And it also resulted in FIFA making Hollywood's

hundred million dollars less than they thought they would on broadcasting deals this year than they did in 2019 because they unbundled it from men's

That said, I think it's good to unbundle the sport from men's because I think having this be its own product and showcasing it as something very distinct from the men's game is really important for the future of the sport. So yesterday you were telling me about someone named Andrea Brimmer, and she sort of changed a lot of the storytelling around women's sports coverage. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? To step back, FIFA expects this year for the Women's World Cup for there to be two very

billion people across the globe that tune in across the course of the entire tournament, which is amazing. Four years ago, they got about 1.1 billion people tuning in. So that shows there's been exponential growth in interest in the sport, right?

That said, the men's tournament, the final alone, got 1.5 billion views globally. So there's a big gap that needs to be closed. And there's a lot of ways to close that gap. One is getting the right broadcasting deal so that women's games aren't being played on random, you know, like ESPN 16. And like, no offense to CBS, CBSN, but like, you know, these streaming channels and women's sports fans have to cobble together so many different streaming services to watch the games that they want to watch across all sports.

I used to stream it on YouTube. It's incredibly easy. So it's getting the right broadcasting deals, getting the sports, the finals, the big games played at the right times because often they're playing at random times and not during prime time, right? And then another part of it is...

creating stories around these games because it's not just the games themselves, but like people need to know the athletes. They need to know the teams. They need to feel invested in these storylines. So there's a lot of stuff that's happening around the women's sports ecosystem that are putting these puzzle pieces together to try to lift everything for everyone.

And I have to say for women's soccer, Andrea Brimmer, or women's football globally, but women's soccer, Andrea Brimmer, who's the CMO of Ally Financial, a financial institution, which is the biggest sponsor of the National Women's Soccer League here in the US. She's done an incredible job. So one thing she did, because she has marketing dollars to wield, she went to CBS last year and she said, I will put my money behind the National Women's Soccer League and

ads for the National Women's Soccer League games you air if you put the final for the National Women's Soccer League on prime time rather than airing it some Saturday morning like it did the year prior. So in 2022, the National Women's Soccer League final got almost a million viewers, which set, I think it was like a 70% increase from the year prior, right? That's huge. She then went to ESPN Disney and said, I will give you multi-million dollars backing for advertising if you put 90% of those dollars

behind women's sports content. They don't have enough women's sports content to support those ads. So now they have to create that content, right? So there's this virtuous cycle that's happening. And I will say that you talk to people within the sports ecosystem. Andrea Brimmer is at the center of a lot of things, spinning that top for women's soccer. She's really an incredible individual, but she's not the only one. There's a lot of people that are doing this, pushing these levers.

trying to get more content, to get more interest, to get better broadcasting times and better broadcasting deals for all of these leagues. So I know there's a new Nike campaign that sort of highlights individual players. Tell me about how marketing around the World Cup has changed and whether you think that's brought in more viewers.

I loved this ad campaign that Nike did where they went to a bunch of different players in the Women's World Cup across the globe. And they created these spots around them that really channeled their personalities. So Sophia Smith, who was a star for the women's team, she plays at Stanford. She's incredible.

or she played at Stanford. They created a commercial for her that was kind of like a thriller, like haunted kind of scary movie kind of thing. For Dabinia, who's one of the stars of the Brazilian team, they did this really funny bit where she was like dribbling a ball in a Brazilian supermarket and just showing off her skills.

For Alex Morgan, they did this fake perfume commercial that was like just ridiculously campy. They gave Megan Rapinoe this animation bit that looked like it was straight out of She-Ra in the 80s. But each of them got something that featured their personality and their skills on the pitch. And I thought it was a really good way of bringing them to life. And in my mind, I contrasted that to this ad campaign that actually went viral that was...

can't even remember the company, but it was a French company and it was around the French women's national team. And it showed a bunch of French male players, the stars, you know, like Mbappe, doing incredible things on the pitch, playing these incredible games. And then it revealed that they had used AI to put

the men's faces on top of the women's bodies. And actually it was a women's playing. So like with the women's sport is as great as the men's game. It was making an important point, but it also felt like you're not going to get viewers just by like chastising people about their bias and sexism. Right. Yeah. And it actually felt the Nike campaign was just like, let's just focus on these incredible players and who they are and what they do. But AJ, I don't know. I'm sure you saw both those commercials. What were your thoughts?

Yeah, I mean, I think they play different roles, right, in reaching audiences. I think the French Adver has a really great gotcha angle to it. I think you're right in that, you know, Nike does a little bit more of storytelling and brand building for those individual players. But I think also that's the market and industry that Nike is invested in. Nike's first

women's products started with women's soccer players. There is a massive market for them to sell these products to. Nike does a great job of tailoring the products that they make based off like region, right? The type of soccer fleet that they're going to offer in Brazil is different than the one they're going to offer in Japan. So I think it just speaks a little bit to the very different types of businesses that are invested in the sport. So AJ, we've talked a little bit about how obviously the fact that it's broadcast in New Zealand in opportune times, the fact that there's maybe fewer marketing dollars, people don't really

know how to sort of get storytelling right around this event is an issue. And despite those things, viewership is growing and interest in the sport is growing. Fundamentally, what do you think that is down to? I think it's down to...

Football being the number one sport in the world and things are finally coming around. I think one of the frustrating parts of watching women's sports is that there historically has been this really high demand, but capitalist products, whether it's broadcast or jerseys or soccer cleats,

haven't met that demand, which seems kind of fishy, right? Like this beautiful capitalist system, right? You'd think they'd be capitalizing on every single dollar. I interviewed the founders of Monarch Collective. They're a VC that's investing specifically in women's sports. And they spoke about how when you went to the women's tournament in years past, you could not buy jerseys in the stadium, right? So like there's this huge, I would argue, capitalist opportunity that I think a lot of firms are finally catching up on, right? They're like, hey, if we can make a buck on this, why the hell?

not. So I think that's happening. I also think we've seen a really great expansion in the sport internationally. The kind of big plot of this tournament is that some of the traditional heavy hitters like Canada and the US fell out really, really early. So that's what I was going to follow up with. What are some of the big storylines that we've seen over the past few weeks?

Yeah, I think that's number one. The heavy hitters, US has won the past two tournaments. They went out in the round of 16. Countries like Canada are out. I think there were some really big surprises there. Who's left? Who's left? Okay, so right now we have... For everyone listening, we're recording this Tuesday afternoon. This will come out Wednesday. We'll have predictions and we'll know if either of you are psychic. Yeah, who's going to win Australia, England? Yeah, yeah.

Put your money now. It's going to be Spain versus the winner of Australia and England. I'm going to personally be rooting for Spain. I think they have a really good chance to win. I think they've been playing beautifully. Parayuelo, this young former track star, has been scoring these great last-minute goals.

goals. She's incredible. I recommend everyone check her out. But the big storyline there, I think, is that Spain's national team has been in emotional crisis for the past year. About a year ago, 15 or 18, depending on how you count, of Spain's national team players protested, said they wouldn't work for the current coach. They wouldn't play. They said, you know, we're getting shitty buses and not good hotels and they're checking our bags and we're not allowed to go on walks. These kind of crazy conditions.

Does a coach dictate that? That is a real question. You could argue that the buck kind of stops with them, that they set the leadership tone and some of the policies there. Have you not watched Ted Lasso yet? Yeah. Believe. You've got to call off curfew in Amsterdam. Yeah, exactly. The players all protested. The Federation stood by the coach and ended up not taking a lot of those first string players.

Why did the Federation stand by the coach? Like, wouldn't you want to win?

So here's the thing. They are winning. They got a really deep team. It's so complicated and I don't know the full intricacies of it because my Spanish isn't that good. But essentially what I think it comes down to is the Federation stood by this male coach. They said he's willing to compromise with the players, but the players are being unreasonable. This team that they've taken, though, has been incredibly successful. And so I'm going to be rooting for those players no matter what, despite whatever controversy has been going on off the field.

This drama is the kind of thing that will suck me into it. Well, that kind of goes back to the marketing and the storytelling point. There's the myth, the very misogynistic myth that women's sports, the WNBA in the US or women's soccer is an inferior product, which mostly it's people who have never watched a game saying that sort of thing, which is obviously not true. But the thing that draws people to...

Tom Brady and Patrick Mahomes and Nicola Jokic. And we know about it. Well, yeah, but it's because you're rooting for a person. Like there's that old Seinfeld joke about why are you rooting for laundry? That sort of thing with teams and players change, but people don't really do that. People root for players, especially with the advent of fantasy sports and things like that. So you have storylines that you want to attract to. I don't,

personality is the right word because that does make her like a dictator but that does make her sound like a dictator but in the best possible thing well there's like you know in terms of occult following around people they have a very active very supportive fan base and is like a widely known name but this can and will happen if there's enough sunlight put on it yeah

I agree. And having interviewed people like Billie Jean King and Megan Rapinoe several times, I think both of them would say that so much of building the women's game has been about getting people to give a fuck. Yeah. And talking about those storylines, whether it's the Battle of the Sexes and Billie Jean King, or I was at the last Women's World Cup final, the first thing people cheered for was pay them more, equal pay, is what they were chanting in the stands. And I think part of what people were following and watching was that storyline.

right? You were rooting for a team because they stood for pay equity and women's access to sport. Going back to the drama of the Spanish team, one thing that I think is interesting to see happening here in the States is that a lot of the women who won in 99 are the ones who are now behind the National Women's Soccer League teams that are being developed. You know, there's a new team that's going up in San Francisco area called Bay FC has a bunch of

former players that are associated with it. There's obviously Angel City FC in Los Angeles, but they're getting involved in these teams. And a lot of what they're doing is making sure that the players have the conditions that they need and want to play under, you know, and the National Women's Soccer League is, by all means, does not have a clean slate. Like there was a big controversy a few years ago and their commissioner stepped down because they were

basically sweeping under the carpet a bunch of accusations about harassment and even like sexual harassment from coaches. But since then, you know, especially the teams with these former players on the ownership side and also consulting in various different ways, like they really are trying to make things better for the players. And I think that's

pretty unique. I'm not an expert in the growth of the NBA, but to have players, former players, so at the ground level of the creation of a team, like that's got to change the culture and the way these teams work and think about their players. And I think that's going to be exciting to see develop.

But it also sounds like the culture, I don't know if culture is the right word, but conditions are kind of rock bottom. Jamaica crowdfunded to get to this World Cup, right? Yeah, literally a GoFundMe style fundraising. Their nickname is the Reggae Girls. They've had a great tournament.

Did they do well? They did do really well. They played some great upset games. Their coach was pretty strongly spoken afterwards. He was like, listen, just imagine what we could do if we actually had the funding. Here's my scoop. I think the best jersey in the entire tournament is Jamaica's away jersey. It's brown and in collaboration with Wales Bonner. It's like incredible. I'm telling you, it's going to be the best. Oh, that's cool. I didn't know Wales Bonner was part of it. I think we should do a social post, AJ, where you rank all of the jerseys. No, honestly, because...

the women's team, the splatter paint, Nike, great job in the ads. I'm sorry. That's a very disappointing Jersey. It is not a Jersey worthy of a team that has won so many world cups. Maybe it's time for our next guest after this skims to come through.

And make some women's soccer uniforms. All right, we got to wrap this up. But my last question for both of you is predictions. Who's going to win this whole tournament? I mean, I'm not going to make the right prediction here. I'm just going to go with my heart. And I just love the Matildas. Yeah.

And by the time this airs, they very well could be out. But the team name, the Matildas, go Australia. I was watching the viral thread of Aussie blokes just wholeheartedly cheering their women's national team. And it made me cry. So I'm going to go with Australia, even though it is an unlikely prediction.

No, I love that. They pull on my heartstrings too, but I got to stick with Spain. Everyone check out Paruello. She's incredible. I'm going to go with Spain because it's the only one I know right now that's going to be in the final. Odds of probability. I like the British team because Ben did like Beckham.

It's my favorite movie. You also did live in London for a while. I did. You know, I'm a UK citizen. Okay, there you go. So you have some real skin in the game. Well, we'll be right back, but we're going to take a quick break right now, followed by my interview with Skims co-founder and CEO Jens Gried about why he admires Starbucks and its pumpkin spice lattes.

So Jens, I want to start towards the beginning of Skims and ask you about the genesis of the idea. What came first? Was it the Kim Kardashian or was it the shapewear? How did that all come together? That's such a good question. It's like chicken and the egg of business. Yeah. I think it's the same with a lot of great things. It's hard to say this is where it started.

Sometimes it's something that grows out of a conversation over time. Kim had a really firm idea of what she wanted to bring to life. She had a real vision for the brand. She thought that Shakeware particularly was one category ripe for disruption. And I...

really felt underwear was the category that was ripe for disruption. And as we kept working this through and getting increasingly excited about doing something together, I guess ideas merge and blend to what ultimately became Skims. But yes, I think Kim came first. I guess she was born before Skims was created. That's fair.

I know your wife is Skims' chief product officer. I'm curious how you both got connected to the Kardashian ecosystem. We've known Kim, Khloe, Kris, Kylie and family for probably a decade or so. Wow. My wife used to work and do work with the Kardashians back in the day when we used to live in London. So it's really been a long relationship between us all.

And that just made Skims something totally natural, organic. Kim had an idea. We started to discuss it and it kind of grew from there. Now, I know this may seem like an obvious question because I feel like there's no better marketing engine than Kim Kardashian as a person and her social media presence. But from your perspective, why did Kim make sense as a business founder and as the face of the business?

I think that Kim has been consistently underestimated. Her and I had a speech at Harvard Business School, and one of the students asked, how much longer can this last? Right. To which I responded, this girl was in her early 20s. I said, Kim has been famous for as long as you can remember. So the odds are for quite a long time. Kim

Kim is one of the best creative directors that I have ever worked with. She's not just a creative director of her own life, but has a deep understanding of product and, of course, popular culture.

Prior to Skims, you co-founded Frame, which is obviously a denim and clothing company that is still around. Skims is a different business in the sense that it's sort of synonymous with Kim Kardashian in a sense. Do you have a strategy for, say, she doesn't want to be the face of it or say for it to be around like 100 years from now? Like, how do you think about creating a brand with someone that famous, but they can stand on its own?

That was something that Kim and I really discussed from day one. And in my view, Kim Kardashian is the Michael Jordan of the influencer generation. Going back a couple of decades, about 20% of American teens roughly wanted to be a professional athlete. Today, 20% of American teenagers wants to be a creator. So...

To me, it's pretty obvious that she has created and set and been a huge part in shaping that culture over the past decade and a half. And just like Jordan Brand, it's about aligning schemes

with popular culture as a whole and building a brand that is inspired by its founder, but not dependent on its founder. This really is the philosophy that led us to pursue partnerships with the Olympics. We're the only brand

except Nike or Jordan that has partnered with LVMH in the last decade or so in our collaboration with Fendi. We have had campaigns more recently with Sysa or iSpice, Snoop Dogg with his grandkids. We brought Brooke Shields out of retirement or reassembled the Victoria's Secret Angels. So the brand is

constantly trying to be part of the conversation in popular culture. So that work really started day one. You all have done an incredible job with that. I think about, you know, it was like the week the White Lotus ended, you had the two women from the latest season in your campaign. I'm curious how fast those campaigns come together and how you come up with those ideas. Like, what is your secret for capturing the zeitgeist with your marketing?

The secret is being a consumer of your own brand and being participants of your own time. It enables us to make decisions based on what we like and what we want to see. Kim and I both loved that show. It had ended. We felt we couldn't get enough of it.

And it was pretty obvious to us that he was going to go on a great awards run, you know, throughout the spring. So it was like a no-brainer. Sometimes it's such an advantage to be able to be nimble and react to culture around you. I often reference Nike because I think that they have done a particularly good job over my lifetime in also being active participants and commentary on what's happening around them.

You know, I think at the beginning when the business announced it was originally called Kimono and then the name was changed to Skims. Tell me about that moment and how you sort of pushed on and still built a business. The most important thing is that you listen to your customer. We did. We apologized. We understood that the idea to name the company Kimono was insensitive. And I think as long as you take accountability and are

are willing to adapt and say, sorry, we didn't, of course, intend to be insensitive. So it was like a no-brainer. We were just really straight with the audience and we moved swiftly from it and there was nothing more to it. It was our mistake and we owned it. That makes a lot of sense. Now, Skims has achieved what? I think it's a $4 billion valuation.

last announced, which is obviously incredible over the span of a couple of years. The market has changed a lot over the past couple of years. And I'm curious how you think about both reaching profitability, but also, you know, whether you think venture is still a good model for this kind of business. How do you think about raising capital now? I

I think the best companies always have great optionality. We can get lost in the overall market pressure. It's not my job to call the market. It's my job to focus on building the best possible brand and company. So I don't worry so much about what's happening out there. I'm just trying to have the best possible product and things tend to work out. Right. So you're sort of saying focus on the work and the rest will come.

Absolutely. And I think in the 2000 and 2021 vintage of venture, also IPOs,

perhaps we can say in hindsight, not everybody was ready. Or we could say perhaps companies went public or raised the valuations, which in hindsight doesn't feel like it reflects their company's intrinsic value. But I think as far as it goes for SKIMS, I don't worry so much about that. We are really focused on building a great company and a great brand and satisfying our customers.

We're not necessarily chasing the vanity of either races or valuations. What is your philosophy when it comes to selling brick and mortar? I know you've had presences at Selfridges in London, for instance. You obviously have your website framed. Your other brand has a couple stores. How do you think about that?

Yeah, Frame, I have stores all over the country and now expanding into Europe. When it comes to schemes, absolutely. 80% of purchases are still happening in physical stores. And if there's something that we see clearly is that our consumer behaviors are, let's say, they're falling back in line with the curve pre-COVID and our behavior pre-COVID.

Generally speaking, I think we all want to get out of the house. I think we all want to have an experience. I think shopping is something great to do with friends and family. So, of course, we will have stores. Otherwise, we'll miss out on 80% of the market. And in terms of when you think about expanding into other categories, you obviously you're already in loungewear, you're in underwear. How do you think about where to go next?

We take the approach that we should go where we can make a real difference. We have had categories under development. For example, swim. We were developing swim probably for about three years. And we had a couple of false starts where we kind of were ready, but we weren't really feeling it.

And I think you go to market when you can bring a product of exceptional quality for the price you're paying, where it really overperforms to the consumer's expectations. Right. And that should be your guiding light.

Rather than saying we need to expand into a category, do you have a product that can make a dent in that category? Are you bringing something that no one has seen at that price in that category? So we really let that be the guiding principle. Swim was three years in development. Bross was probably four years in development, which we launched last fall.

And now men's, which has been many years in development, which we're launching in October of this year. I'm very excited. I'm excited to wear some of your men's pajamas when they come out. I'm also curious, you obviously, as you mentioned, collaborated with the likes of Fendi. How do you think about collaborations with other brands? We see so many fashion brands doing it. What do you think makes a successful collaboration? Yeah.

It has to be something you just can't get for the money. I think why Fendi was so successful is because we democratized a luxury product and put their aesthetic...

onto our feel and fabric and made that available. So I don't believe in collaboration just for the sake of putting two brands together, but is the collaboration going to create a product that is unlike anything else?

What do you think are examples of other brands where you really admire their marketing and what they've done? Oh, Starbucks is my personal favorite. Really? Starbucks for sure, because Starbucks creates the market. America had not adopted the Frappuccino and Starbucks made it. Starbucks made the Frappuccino and we adopted it.

So you're trying to be the Starbucks of like backless body suits. Yeah, because Starbucks, much like Skims, is maybe at the slight premium. You can definitely get a cheaper cup of coffee. Yeah. But they are bringing you a totally different experience that I think is valuable money, even though it's at a premium to a regular cup of coffee.

their way to innovate to keep us engaged, if it's the Frappuccino or the pumpkin spice latte. Yeah. These drinks are not part of the American vocabulary. Yeah. And they made that market. I would say the pumpkin spice latte is a uniquely American creation, though. It's not a hit in Italy. Yeah. It's not a vibe in Rome. Yeah.

You built Frame before you built Skims. And I'm curious, what are some of the lessons you learned when you built Frame that you chose to do differently as you built Skims? What you learn as a serial entrepreneur is that every situation, company, and brand is

is unique. And at the same time, similar issues will arise as you scale a business in terms of keeping a company's culture, making sure you hire the best people and don't become

a victim of your own success. And it's very common, and I see it all the time, that once a company or brand becomes successful, they cling on to that for way too long and they're too fearful to keep innovate. But innovation really is the only moat.

Where would Nike be today without air or dry fit? Just like where would Starbucks be if they stopped at cappuccino and didn't do the frappuccino? Because innovation is how you stay two steps ahead of the competition. They can't copy what they don't have. I

I like that approach a lot. That's really smart. As you built Skims, obviously, Frame is a very premium brand with pretty expensive clothing. Skims is more democratically priced. It's at a slight premium, but it's fairly affordable. Tell me about why you decided to play in that price range.

I really wanted, and I know Kim did too, to build a company for everybody and not the few. I think it's really that simple. I wanted a company and a brand that appealed to the many, that had the opportunity to become a generational retailer and mean something in culture. And to do that, you have to be affordable.

You know, when you think about your SKIMS demographic, I know you brought Brooke Shields out of retirement, who definitely appeals to Gen Xers. But what does the demographics skew? Like, how old are your customers and where are they from?

It's accused predominantly Gen Z and millennial, for sure. But I think one of the strengths of Skims is really that we appeal to everybody. Rich and poor, coastal to middle of America. It's hard to say that Skims is overrepresented anywhere. It really appeals to everybody. You are focused on Skims. You're obviously Skims' CEO. Kim Kardashian has a bunch of business ventures.

and a TV show. How do you kind of work together? We work together every single day. It's very organic. I tend to be in person a few times a week. She's involved in every single creative decision at the company. Skims is, at this point in time, really

really has the opportunity to be a generational retailer. And the last one I can think of would be Lululemon about 10, 15 years ago. So we have a big ambition here and we have a big target.

At this point in time, that takes a lot of energy for both of us. It takes a lot of energy and a lot of time. Now, she is a phenomenal multitasker and she has crazy bandwidth, but it's clear that Skims, of course, takes a lot of our energy.

You know, I've met your wife, Emma Greed, who also co-founded Good American, the jeans company. She's your chief product officer. I'm curious what it's like to work with your wife, to be an executive with your wife. I mean, don't be always... You've got to be careful here, I know. No, I...

It's not the first time someone asked me the question. I get it. I think we always work with our partner, don't we? When are you coming home? Who's cooking dinner? Who's taking the kids? Did you pick that up at the store? My husband reads my first drafts. Right, right. But, you know, a marriage is a constant collaboration. And it's true. We do cross over partly at skims. But I believe...

She's an incredibly talented merchant. She has an unbelievable sense of product. She really works closest with Kim. So for me, it's a pleasure. I love working with talented people and I'm lucky enough to be married to my wife. Emma, are you in the room? She's not.

No, I hope it's true. And it's a very diplomatic answer. I ask this to most entrepreneurs I speak with, which is how do you switch off? First of all, I love what I do. My work is my hobby. I genuinely don't, I don't have time to go fly fishing. I have a company to build. I have four kids. And between being with the children and

and helping them and being there for them at my work, I wouldn't say that I have a lot of time. But in terms of switching off, I have twins. They're two-year-old twins. Yeah, so you're like, I have no choice. When you're with two-year-old twins, the rest of the world kind of disappears. Yeah.

So my last question for you is, well, I guess it's technically two questions, which is, first of all, what is the product that you think really Skims really changed the game with? And second, what is your favorite Skims product? That could be one in the same where they could be different.

So first, my favorite product is definitely sleep or the boyfriend collection for men. That's what I'm wearing every single day. I'll tell you a stat, which is that almost 12% of our customers today are men. What are they buying? They're buying unisex products. So sleep, product, lounge and boyfriend collection. So I am so...

so excited about bringing Mensad in October because I know I have tens of tens of millions of guys waiting for it already on site. Can you share anything about the marketing campaign? I bet you can't. Oh, I cannot. Comradie or something? I don't know. It will be epic, whatever it is. Okay. We'll have to look out for it. What is the product that really changed the game for you guys?

I think the seamless scalp bodysuit. Oh, I wore that on my wedding day. There you go. Yeah. Thank you so much for your custom. We appreciate you. That's for sure. It's a true SKIMS product in terms of innovation, fit and feel. But I would say...

the one product that has surprised me the most is the soft lounge dress. Really? Yeah. We made a dress that we thought would be great to have around the house. And not one day goes by in my life where I don't see people out and about in a soft lounge dress. Really? This dress is a total phenomenon. And probably the most duped product on the internet today. Really?

What is your approach to dupes? I mean, I guess you can't really crack down on them, but how do you feel about it when you see other brands making the same product?

Imitation is the greatest form of flattery. I knew that was going to be your answer. I knew it. But ultimately, here's the thing. We're making a product of an entirely different quality, fit and feel. And for anyone who just wants to look like it skims, get a dupe, I guess. But, you know, I think real people wear real clothes. Yeah. So you're not real if you're wearing a dupe. No.

I didn't say that. No, I love that. Well, this was great. Thank you so much, Jens, for coming on the show. Thank you so much for having me. Okay, we're back with Amy and AJ, and it's time to wrap up the show with Keeping Tabs.

As a reminder, this is where each of us shares a story, trend, or company we're following right now. So since you're our guest, AJ, let's start with you. What are you keeping tabs on? I get the cheat, easy answer. I will be following the Women's World Cup Final, which is August, Sunday, 20th. And we already know your prediction. It's Spain. It's Spain. Amy, what are you keeping tabs on? I am kind of obsessed with the story of Michael O'Hara, the guy who was...

Oh, yeah. For anybody who doesn't know, super quickly, the guy featured in The Blind Side, the football player in high school who was supposedly adopted by this family and then became an NFL star. And now he's saying they actually never adopted him and they signed him secretly into a conservatorship.

and they got proceeds from the film and managed to make it so that he didn't get any. And it's just shocking, but it's shocking because it's actually not shocking because you knew there was something so off with that white savior thing that was going on with the movie and the story. But now you discover that it was actually like even deeper than that. It just, it's- I don't want to be too rude to a guy who really inspired me to get into journalism, but that book was written by Moneyball. What's his name? Michael Lewis. Michael Lewis. Did Michael Lewis write that?

I thought, really? Yes, and I'm like, my guy, how did you...

Oh, we need him to weigh in. Everybody's like, Sandra Bullock needs to weigh in. I want him to weigh in. Oh, yeah. I'm like, yeah, how did you literally, like, you got taken in like all those reporters who wrote about Theranos, buddy. I will say you wrote that book about Goldman Sachs. And I've heard from so many Goldman people about whiz traders. And I've heard from so many Goldman people who are like, that book was bullshit. So I don't really know what's going on with him. But it is crazy that he wrote The Blind Side. And I would love to hear from him.

about it. Yeah. I mean, for, you know, all the journalism that you're supposed to be doing, maybe check the adoption papers, um, for going in. Who knows what's going on? Josh, what are you keeping tabs on? Broadway, baby. What am I not keeping? Well, obviously I'm a big Broadway fan, but the kind of new Broadway season, the second full season after the pandemic, uh,

That's a whole thing. The pandemic has been officially ended in terms of the legal designation. We obviously all know COVID is still a thing. But last season, 2022-23 Broadway season was really the first full season back. And you saw some positive numbers out of it. It was the third highest grossing Broadway season ever. 88% of total seats were filled. And the number of performances were going back up to near pre-pandemic levels.

So there's a lot of optimism coming up with this new season, which is going to feature some really great shows coming back. Spamalot, one of my favorite shows, is coming back, which features a tie-in back to what was a previous Keefing Tabs, or at least part of that, which is one of the stars of Spamalot is Ethan Slater. Yeah.

No! Really? Yes, of Ariana Grande fame now. SpongeBob himself coming back. So it's all full circle with this show. I like the spam a lot. He's playing the historian slash Prince Herbert. Everyone plays a bunch of different roles in it. It's a really fun show. I did it once way back in my previous life. But also one of my favorite actors, Michael Urie, is going to be in it, who's absolutely fantastic. Starved Shrinking. Oh, he was an ugly buddy.

He was in Ugly Betty. He's really fantastic. A wonderful person, wonderful actor. And he's going to be in it and a bunch of other great shows, including a musical version of The Notebook, which...

Stay with me. It's supposed to be incredible. The musical's supposed to be, like, actually incredible. So I have high hopes for that. But just ask me if you're telling me and Jess about that musical where somebody had to keep their hands on a car for as long as possible to win it. Oh, Hands on a Hard Body? That was a number of years ago, but that is not being revived this season. But a lot of great shows coming up, a lot of new plays, a lot of cool stuff. Yas, what's your keeping tabs?

So I was just looking at this this morning. Many of us will remember the fact that Kebe Palmer's loser boyfriend made fun of what she was wearing when she or didn't make fun. He was like, can't believe my wife dresses like this when she went to an Usher concert. And today he has just teased a music video collaboration with Usher where she's very sexy in it. And I love that for her.

I think Usher saying something like, your man's looking for you. I think it's really fun. And I feel like I don't want to feel too bad for that guy because he obviously sucks. But also the amount of score and heat on this guy.

this person is. Listen, do you reef what you sow? It's true. He fumbled the bag so hard. I know. Are they still together? No, I don't think so. Because her releasing this video and then going home to this guy is like... Yeah, that would be a little much. That's like Lemonade-esque. Yes!

She's so great. She makes all the right moves. I love Keke Hallmark. She's so good. Except for having a baby with that dude. Yeah. As a woman with one of the worst track records in history, I sympathize. I get it. Sometimes you just like terrible people. And that is the end of our show today. Thank you, Amy and AJ, for joining us. Thanks, guys. Thanks, Josh. Thank you both so much.

Our show is produced by Avery Miles and Blake Odom, mixed and sound designed by Tad Wadhams, and our executive producer is Josh Christensen. Remember again to subscribe, rate, and review, and we'll see you next week.