Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
Ladies, hello. Hello. Buenos dias. Hi. Buen dia. Buen dia. I'm Saeed Jones. And I'm Zach Stafford. And I'm Sam Sanders. And you are listening to Vibe Check. Vibe Check.
We got a lot to cover this episode. So many things going on, so much to talk about. We're going to talk about the midterms. It's been a week, but we are seeing more and more every day since those midterms that midterm 2022 was a big old queer election. Some pundits are calling it the rainbow wave. We're going to talk about all of the queer candidates who won big last week. We're
We're also going to talk about the movie we have to talk about. It's here. It's everywhere. I'm talking about Wakanda Forever, the new Black Panther movie. You won't be surprised to find out, listeners, that the three of us have some differing opinions on this film. We shall discuss.
But first, I want to talk about how we're all feeling, how our vibes are. Saeed, you're traveling. You go first. Where are you right now, actually? Oh, my gosh. Okay, so I got back here to Columbus from Louisville last night. One of my dearest friends got married this weekend in Kentucky. It was so beautiful. I was so honored to be able to celebrate this new era for her. But yeah, I got back yesterday, and then I immediately did a book interview. And then y'all were like, you've got to go see...
Black Panther and I went and I was like, God, the only showing is 10 p.m. So you know that means I was like in the movie theater until almost one o'clock in the morning. I'm going to the Miami Book Festival in a couple of days. A lot's going on. Okay. She's booked and busy. When does it end for you, Saeed? When does book tour stop for this book? Busy.
Basically next week, the Miami Book Festival is my last scheduled book event for the year. So I get to Thanksgiving and then I'm just, I get to be a normal gal again for at least a little while. Yeah.
I love that for you. A break. You deserve a break. A break. So you're feeling busy, but okay? Yeah. I mean, one, because I got to see a great film last night, Sam. A wonderful... A really great film, Sam. So I'm feeling lifted. No, you know, I'm feeling...
very vibrant, very alive. What a joy to get to do this. How wonderful to be traveling the country, talking about poetry, and then going to celebrate a breakthrough in my friend's life. You know, I'm like, this is great. I can deal with the jet lag if this is what the reason is. So I feel cute. But how about y'all? I love that. I mean, I feel...
bit similar. I also am coming from a wedding, which, Sam, you're always at weddings, it feels like. I'm going to one this weekend in New York. See, exactly. Like, literally all the time. But I am not recovered from the wedding. Like, it was too much socializing, dancing, drinking. I think it was my first wedding since the pandemic. The life hack for any wedding, you need to choose one type of drink and not deviate. Oh.
And then have a cutoff time. What is your cutoff time where you stop drinking alcohol and start eating greasy carbs before you go to sleep? Oh, see, I didn't do that. I didn't eat very much and I drank too much. And we drank for many days. So it just compounded to today. All the gays went to the club afterwards. See, that second location will screw you up.
But was it fun, Zach? Yes. I think we're all at an age where you're like beginning to more seriously think about your own weddings. So now every wedding I go to, I have notes. Wait a minute. I thought you were about to say.
I am meaning because we are both... Are you breaking some news? No, I am breaking zero news. Zero news. Wow. I'm saying that we are of an age of proper Christian women in which we would consider... So in the era in which I can afford a wedding and have one and think about it, I now have notes on weddings, which is very fun to go to them. Sam, how are you doing? I'm feeling good.
I'm feeling really like back outside. Like I was this past weekend at Vulture Fest. Y'all know I have a second podcast with Vulture called Into It that I host. And as part of the show and Vulture's festivities at Vulture Fest here in LA, I had the honor, privilege, and blessing of,
of interviewing the Cheryl Lee Ralph in person at the Hollywood Roosevelt this weekend. And I'm just still on cloud nine. She is a gift to humanity. So that's my vibe. You looked so happy with her. It's like you found your supreme auntie. I really did. I found my auntie.
And that gold outfit she was wearing, she was like glowing. She was. She is an angel here on earth. And it was really full circle for me because when I changed jobs several months ago, my colleagues who know how much I love Sheryl Lee Ralph, they had Sheryl Lee Ralph record a cameo for me as I began the new job. Oh.
And it was the one part of my last job farewell that actually broke me down in tears, seeing Sheryl Lee Ralph talk to me. So I told her at the end of our interview, you might not remember it, but you did this cameo for me that touched my soul. So to be here with you on stage now, I love you and I mean it. No, it was great. It's going to be in the podcast feed of my other show, Into It, in just a few weeks. So stay tuned. But I'm feeling good because of that. All right.
All right. Wow. We love that. Joy. Big weekend for the group text. Listen. Big weekend for the girls. We love it. We love it. We love it.
Before we get into the episode, of course, we want to thank all of you who sent us fan mail, who tweeted us. We love hearing from y'all. You can keep them coming at vibecheckatstitcher.com. Also, if you love the show and you want to celebrate it, Sam has said this before, one of the best things you can do is literally embrace peer pressure. Turn to your neighbor and say, neighbor, have you listened to Vibe Check? You would like this podcast. Yes.
Literally, the best way to spread the word is word of mouth. I love it. All right, now let's jump in, shall we? Let's do it. Let's do it.
All right. So to kick things off, we are riding the rainbow wave that hit yet again this year during the midterm elections. So, you know, we heard a lot over the past few weeks that, you know, there was going to be a red wave, that Republicans were going to take over and all these things. But the thing that no one was talking about was that gay people continue to win and win big when it comes to elections, whether it's local or national these days. So according to the Victory Fund, which is the largest LGBT
organization that supports folks running for office. They have counted so far in the election cycle that 436 people who openly identify as LGBTQ won in their midterm elections. 436. That's a lot of people. This is about 100 more wins than in 2020, which back in that time was the biggest wave that had ever happened then. And this also doesn't include states like Oregon, which hasn't finished counting their votes.
As of today, over 1,000 people who are LGBTQ now hold public office in the U.S. A really exciting one is Mara Healy, who's become the nation's first out lesbian governor and is Massachusetts' first ever woman governor. The very first gay male governor is Jarrett Polis in Colorado. Also, Becca Balint became the first LGBTQ legislator and first woman elected to Congress from Vermont. Who would have thought Vermont was the last place to cross that
Yeah.
given what the GOP has been doing across the country in state houses and cities and towns all over trying to punish trans kids for just existing. But what we found out was that this visible push against trans people and queer people led to their supporters coming out in droves and sending more queer and trans folks into office than ever. So in spite of this anti-queer politics, we saw queer folks win, and
And it just makes me wonder how far we've come from George W. Bush's re-election in 2004, when he basically won re-election just by campaigning against gay marriage. That's less than 20 years ago. So my big question for all of us as we start this conversation is like,
How far have we come? And are we really in a watershed moment for queer politics? Does this prove that being anti-queer is bad for politics? Is this the future or just a fluke? I first want to acknowledge over a
out LGBT people now hold office in the United States, a record-breaking 436 candidates winning, you know, in this midterm election cycle. I want to acknowledge that getting into politics in this country...
At this point in time, that is no small feat. You know what I mean? It's like, oh my God. - You gotta be brave to run for office, period. But to run for office as a queer person? - Do you really want Marjorie Taylor Greene to be your coworker? That's what you're kind of dealing with at this point. And so I want to just acknowledge across the country, not just the fact that queer people are winning, but that they're like, no, I'm going to do the work. I'm gonna put myself out there. I'm going to deal with this chaos
head on, you know, because all of the attacks, the campaigning, it can be just really nasty, frankly violent, terrifying, and I am just so proud to hear that so many people are stepping up for public service. And so, yeah, I would like to think that
not only perhaps is running on like an anti-trans, anti-queer agenda, you know, like it's no longer a sure bet for Republicans anymore. But I also would like to think that queer people and our allies, you know, we're stepping up
in a new way. There's some solidarity kind of really strengthening, and that does seem meaningful. I think really when you go back to 2004 and the lead up to the marriage equality decisions in the Supreme Court, it just felt like always on the defense. It was like queer people were really made to feel like we were a liability.
you know, and just like, just like, shut up, be quiet. If you don't have anything nice to say about marriage and wanting to serve in the military, you be quiet because you're going to, you know, cost us races. And then here we are now winning them. Yeah. And something like what I want to kind of point out and what
that you just said so beautifully is there is a huge gulf that we've seen appear between the lived experiences of being a queer person in every county in this country, in which you do have people that you find in community with you, but you also find some opposition. But we are seeing that more people than ever do support you. Like Republicans now more than ever support same-sex marriage than ever before.
But there is that violence that is the reception of you in the public eye, that the Marjorie Taylor Greene's, that the Charlie Kirk's really attack you and I think have bigger bullhorns than ever. So it's kind of dizzying when you think of someone existing in public life these days of, you know, my family loves me, my neighbor loves me, but this woman in Georgia gets on Twitter and attacks me and all these followers attack me and bots attack me.
And that is kind of this weird moment we're in, in which the Republicans forced Roe to fall. And now they're dealing the repercussions of that with the Dobbs decision, and that Republicans really were taken to the cleaners in this midterms because of that, because they assumed their small voter bloc, these small group of people define the entire party when they're not. And what we're seeing emerge from this is this shimmering hope that maybe most people in this country aren't
awful, which is a wild thing to consider. Yeah, you know, and I am really interested in what these election results say about how certain parts of America feel about certain types of queer people. You know, so after we see these incredible midterm results for queer folks all across the country, we're also hearing word that the U.S. Senate might vote for
to codify into law same-sex marriage. That is remarkable. To get to that point less than 20 years after a Republican president won re-election campaigning against it, that's a big deal. And so what I wonder though is like, are we seeing conservatives and liberals alike be okay with adultery
adult queer people doing pretty conventional things like getting married versus how do they feel about trans youth, right? There's a difference in the way that these groups are treated. And so even though this is a good election cycle for queer people, I want to be very clear here and say, not all queer people are loved equally by all voters across the country. And there's still work to be done. A lot of the same folks who would say, I fully support same-sex marriage are
are still raising eyebrows about giving trans youth full rights. - 100%. And I think we're at a really critical moment in our movement. We are beginning to see the infrastructure that was built because of
Clinton and DOMA and Don't Ask, Don't Tell, all these big, very binary decisions that were very much about cis queer people that we have not built the infrastructure to protect trans queer people, specifically trans queer children. Because even yesterday or this week in the New York Times, we see a very critical piece come out
It's kind of calling into question, do puberty blockers, which are given to young people who are considering transitioning but want to put a pause on puberty, they put out a report saying that maybe it's hurting their bone density, which a lot of research shows and every medical association in the country and world support giving kids these puberty blockers.
But the New York Times itself is saying, well, maybe we should question. Maybe we should not give the decision to parents. And when we focus in on children and queer people, whether it's trans kids and puberty blockers or drag queen story hours or books in schools, you see a totally different behavior from liberals who are like, okay, you at 18 plus, go be gay, have fun. But you at 12, I can't.
see you as a realized queer person yet. And it's doing way more damage than people think. You look at Trevor Project's data, young people are considering suicide still at the highest rates, even as these elected officials are taking office. So it's still a huge gulf between kids and parents right now and adults. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that nuance is important. And just another example, it's striking that a week after midterm elections,
I mean, not only was there not a red wave, I think in particular, Trump-aligned politicians fared very poorly. Shout out to Carrie Lake in the morning. She must be having, uh-huh, she thought she was going to be picking her new transition team in Arizona. And it's like, mm-mm.
Nope, don't look like it. But it's interesting that even with that context, even with the brutal kind of wake-up call that everyone in the GOP is facing this morning, literally today, Stephen Miller, one of Trump's surrogates, tweets –
We now live in a country where it's easier to get, quote, chemical castration drugs than ivermectin. And so it's interesting to me. Sure, these weirdos are trolling and they're always kind of throwing click outrage spaghetti at the wall or at the timeline to have a response. But to the point that both of you are making, it's striking that even when it's
clear anti-trans and anti-gay rhetoric has cost Republicans a lot of political power. Clearly, many Republicans, on the other hand, still see value in emphasizing anti-trans youth rhetoric and health policy. And so that's not just coming out of nowhere.
Yeah. Well, and it's really important to know where all of this comes from, what the root of it is. We know that since the 70s, when Jerry Falwell said it was going to be this way, he wanted to make evangelical white conservative Christians the most ardent supporters of GOP politics. And that is still the case today.
And so even as we see white evangelical Christians become a smaller and smaller percentage of American voters, they're still really reliable. And you can see in this anti-trans rhetoric, it is really just for them. It's just for them. And these GOP politicians know that it will still get enough butts in seats for primary elections to do something.
But the question is, what do you do in a general? What do you do in a general? And they haven't figured that out yet. I'm really interested to see what these results mean for Democratic messaging as we head into 2024. And we're already in it. We're already seeing stories about DeSantis and Trump facing off. The GOP is getting ready for this right now.
I wonder if these results mean that they have to pivot to some other issue and some other group to demonize, or will they try the same playbook again? I don't know. And I think your point of the difference between local and national is so important because the US is larger than Europe, larger than most areas of this world and hemisphere. And what we see happen is...
DeSantis has become so well known over the past few years because of his direct attacks on queer people. So his Don't Say Gay bill is now the playbook for a lot of... It's like the template that's being shipped to Texas, to Tennessee, to Georgia to make you relevant nationally by passing legislation that protects kids in schools.
But what we're going to see happen is that when these people try to jump to the national stage running for president, they're going to see this huge wave that a lot of people still aren't talking about, which is the youth vote and Gen Z vote. Gen Z came out in so many huge numbers. And they're not having it. And they're not having it. Because they know trans kids. They know trans people. You're not going to fuck with their friends.
Exactly. And Gen Z, more than ever before, openly identifies as part of the LGBTQ community across the world in ways that we can't even understand. So I think that's the test here is that, sure, become famous in Miami-Dade County by attacking queer kids, but then when you march yourself to Capitol Hill, what will you face? And what they're facing is a way more accepting and inclusive youth vote. And even millennials are way more accepting of queer people than ever before. And we're the fastest growing bloc.
of voters. So it is a conundrum they're finding them in. And I think I saw on Charlie Kirk's show I was watching briefly on Twitter. Why? He was trending. Clips were trending because they were talking about Arizona and they finally admitted it and they said, I think we may be living in an echo chamber. Like one of the people just said that. And it's kind of this moment of clarity that you're like, oh wow, this is going to rock your world now. Yeah. And
And I also want to say, you know, balance in all things, because it's not just about like electoral power. It occurs to me, you know, just thinking that I believe it was a donut shop in Tulsa, Oklahoma, hosted like a drag queen event or like a talent show where a drag queen performed. Sounds lovely. I'm like, okay, come on.
donut shops. And then later that week after hours, someone firebombed that place. Here in Columbus, Ohio last week, a beloved drag queen, Nina West, I think is obviously well-known because of RuPaul's Drag Race and Ashley. But I got to tell you, Nina West is one of the icons of Columbus, Ohio. I can't even explain how beloved and endeared she is. And she had a great...
book event here last week and reading, you know, a children's book and it's just like packed. But outside I talked to, you know, event coordinators a few days later because I had an event at the same venue and they were like, there was a Nazi. We did have to call, you know, OSU authorities to kind of take care of this person. There was someone standing outside of this event, you know, raging about the fact that there was a drag queen doing like a youth
of them. So it's like, just balance in all things. It's like, I don't want people to be cynical and defeatist. I want us to be energized, but also stay alert. Stay alert, baby. And, you know, and like, pay attention. And also, don't act like it's done. I mean, the lesson with all of this stuff all the time is that the fight's never actually over. And even in spite of this Gen Z wave, this rainbow wave, millions more of
all American voters voting for Democrats and Republicans, the margins in the House and the Senate nationally are still really tight. With all that work and all that wave of action from the left, it's still really tight.
I say it all the time, but the fight's never actually over. Keep working on this shit. It's not done yet. And also, can I be salty for a minute? You salty never. My wisdom. May I? This goes to Republican George Santos, the first openly LGBT non-incumbent Republican elected to Congress. He defeated another gay person once.
Robert Zimmerman and the race for New York's third congressional district. This was the first federal general election between two openly gay candidates, which is really interesting. But also, George Santos, you know what? Fuck you. I don't know what the gay equivalent of all skin folk ain't kin folk, but you ain't family. With that, we're going to take a quick break, but we'll be right back with more Vibe Check and Wakanda Forever.
We are back. You're listening to Vibe Check. And cue the Rihanna power ballad. It's time to go to Wakanda. Please don't.
I'm still mad at that song. I'm still mad at that song. Listen, love the sin and hate the sin, okay? Rihanna, what did you do? Anywho, it's time to talk about the new Black Panther movie, Wakanda Forever. To start, we have to acknowledge that this film was major. As we all expected, over this past weekend at the North American box office, Black Panther Wakanda Forever took in $180 million worth
a November record. And then overseas, the movie also collected $150 million. It's probably going to get to a billion before it's all said and done, which is wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. But,
I don't want to talk just about the success of this film. I want to talk about how I feel about the movie and how y'all feel about the movie. I saw Black Panther at an advanced press screening, and I remember when it was ending, I looked over to a fellow journalist who I know, and we both danced around being afraid to say that we didn't love it. Right.
So I want to talk now about how I didn't love this movie and I kind of feel guilty about it, but is that okay? I don't know. Saeed, Zach, how do y'all feel? Y'all saw it too. I,
I don't even know where to begin. Okay, I'll begin. Because I think why I'm having a visceral reaction to you saying you weren't that big of a fan of it is probably the reason why you are afraid to say you're not that big of a fan of it is because for me, the movie is very much for us, by us. It's our family movie. It's our thing. It could have...
And I would have said I loved it probably because it just means so much to black people and the culture. But also beyond that, it's like the cast, what they have gone through since it came out in 2018. Chadwick has passed away. The film had to be completely reimagined. They have gone through so much.
And for them to have to take all that grief, all that weight of the world on them through a pandemic and create a movie that if it had flopped, you know, we know how executives are. They would have taken Black Panther off the MCU futures. They would have figured a way to minimize Black people in the universe. But the fact that they were able to accomplish a film that I think is really beautiful and an amazing meditation on grief for a national or global audience.
at scale, like the fact that that many people watched a movie this weekend where it shows you how grief shapes you and moves you and how it can be tough to get through things, but you lean into love is, I think, amazing. So I'm just proud that they even finished it. So that's where I'm at with that. So Zach, you like it. Saeed?
I gotta say I loved it. I was prepared to be disappointed. One, because this is the last film in Phase 4. So I'm a big Marvel nerd, I should say. I want to be very clear. I'm a big MCU nerd. I watch these movies. I rewatch them all the time. I was prepared to be disappointed, though, because the MCU's Phase 4 has been really chaotic and disappointing.
And because, God, and as you both have alluded to, what an impossible burden. Because the entire concept of sci-fi fantasy and the epic and the scale, when that collides with the grief and the real-life tragedy of Chadwick Boseman, how do you handle that in a way that isn't...
extractive or too campy or anything, but I was, I went in trying to truly keep an open mind, but I did love it. I just, what, so what I think might be helpful for this conversation, Sam is like, I'm really curious about like why you didn't love it. What are the pressures? I'm prepared to do that. I'm,
Listen, I don't need no prompting. Come on. Okay, fair. How you feel about the genre? Because I can just think of just and just quickly some examples where I was like, oh, this is so exciting. The opening scene when we're introduced to Namor and the people of his community, the siren song.
eerier and scarier than anything that happened in the last Doctor Strange movie, which was supposed to be a horror movie. Like just that siren, just hearing that. And you, at first I thought it was like, wow, I was like, the score for this movie is really good. And then you realize you're like, no, no, no, that's not,
background music, you know, they are singing these people to their death. Like what I love and what I look for in MCU and all kinds of comic book movies are, can you really create a moment that just on its own, it stands another example, the opening funeral in the film, just the scale of, of seeing, you know, all of these people in white dancing,
dancing and then the camera pulls back and you see all of Wakanda, you know, and it's actually really important to see that city landscape because of what happens later. You know, I just kind of forgot what I was watching for a moment because the spectacle, the beauty in that moment really took me. And so those are some examples of what I look for in a Marvel movie I like. But let's get to the gig, Sam. I'm so fascinated.
Yeah, well, and to start this conversation, I want to say this will not be the only Black Panther conversation I have this week. On my Vulture show this week, Intuit, we're going to have a tale of two dueling critics.
I interview Angelica Jade Bastion of Vulture, who didn't like Wakanda Forever. And I also interview Wesley Morris of the New York Times, who did. Dueling reviews on Intuit. Check for that Thursday. That's a fascinating editorial decision. I can't wait. I'm excited. I love it. But to start, I think I want to just read the first paragraph of Angelica's review of the movie for Vulture, which really spoke to me. She wrote, quote,
Black Panther Wakanda Forever carries a series of burdens no one film could ever bear. Its director, Ryan Coogler, must grapple with the challenges and expectations borne and influenced by the tragic death of star Chadwick Boseman. Coogler must craft an entertaining sequel to a billion-dollar blockbuster while working within the constricting Marvel Cinematic Universe.
He must carefully balance the expectations of black folks who have elevated the film to a celestial status, a pinnacle of Afrofuturism, Tinge's desires for a specific kind of black power and representation on screen. The film is called to introduce a new Black Panther and push the MCU forward with the introduction of Namor. Perhaps most crucially, the film's cast must act out grief while being mired in the experience themselves.
She goes on to say that overall for her, this film had too much pressure to live up to and in trying to answer all those questions and solve all those problems, it kind of didn't hit any of the marks as well as it could have. And I tend to agree. I tend to agree. There are moments in which this film gets it incredibly right. You mentioned that opening funeral scene. It is visual poetry. It is beautiful. It moves you to your core.
I think of other moments when we see Angela Bassett really speak to her grief as the mother of T'Challa. I wanted to almost live in those moments more, but the film felt like it had to constantly rush to the next thing because that's what superhero movies and the MCU have to do to set up how they're part of this larger world. It just felt like too much by the end.
And so I ended up at the end of this two hour and 47 minute movie saying, I've seen a lot, but I don't think I know enough. When we think of this new world that Namor has created,
Do you know anything about the other characters in that world that are just briefly introduced in the Never Given backstory? You had two hours and 47 minutes. No more of that? Is it coming later? Maybe it is, but I wanted more in that movie. I think there were other moments where when they did allow a few of the characters to lean into a little bit of comedy, a little bit of humor, they weren't there long enough. I know this movie is about grief.
but I would have liked a little more levity to balance it out. I think the first Black Panther was incredibly fun. It was a romp. And I know that this new one could not be that, but had I even had 15 minutes more of romp, 10 minutes more of romp, it would have spoke to me more. I just think that like my big takeaway is that in general, I think great filmmakers and potentially great films are
often aren't allowed to be as great as they could be when they have to paint in the MCU coloring book. And I think that's my larger beef. And I say that as someone who is decidedly not a Marvel person. So that's the start of my critique. And I'll let you guys have that.
Well, I will say one thing. The first time, and you wouldn't know this because you're not totally a geek, so I understand that you haven't watched all of the Marvel films, but in Civil War, when T'Challa, Black Panther, is introduced, we don't see Wakanda at all. There's a brief post-credit scene where we're in a lab and you see a Black Panther statue, and I'm just contrasting with the way Namor is introduced. Actually, we saw a lot more
of Namor's backstory and his culture, the first time Black Panther actually shows up in the MCU, he's kind of just on his own, like out in the world. And so I actually appreciated that because of the little journey he takes Shuri on, which felt a little romantic, by the way. But can you even name any of the other characters that were introduced next time in that world?
Yeah, there was Nomura. And I can't remember the other characters. There you go. To your point, it's kind of like what I see when I saw that happen. I too was like, oh my God, they're giving us way more of this world than they typically would. Like we would never really spend this much time, even though it was a limited time, kind of humanizing these people. How Marvel loves to do is they give you like a quick slice, a quick peek at somebody, and you got to wait three years for their movie to come out.
And that's the that of it all, Zach. And this is the thing. And I think I have a larger issue with the way that the MCU is changing the art of filmmaking. I think I most enjoy films.
when they are not part of a larger world, when they freely stand on their own. And I think what happened with the first Black Panther for me, it felt like a standalone. The sequel does not feel standalone, and that makes me like it less. The most charismatic actors and actresses in that movie, Lupita, Danai, and Angela, I wanted all of them to get more shine and more time. And as much as I am rooting for Letitia Wright,
I don't see the charisma in her to fill out that role yet. If there was a world in which y'all could have made Angela Bassett the Black Panther, my God, sign me up. Yeah. It's interesting to me because I actually felt compared to other MCU films in phase four, which you're right, often these films are like overburdened with the kind of puzzle piece dynamic where it's like, well, this is going to lead to that, going to lead to that. I actually feel...
felt this movie was really into its own world. You know, I love that Thor or the Hulk didn't suddenly pop up or whatever as often happens. And that I love that the conflict in this film is really rich. First of all, I love, thank goodness, the multiverse had nothing to do with this movie. A blessing. And I love that instead that this film went, I think
I hear what you're saying, and I think that's generally true, Sam, for MCU movies, the sense of like, can the movie stand on its own? But I'm like, no, this is a unique movie. First of all, led mostly by – most of the movie we're watching, black women. Black women talk about science, talk about politics, talk about grief. Right, dark-skinned black women. And that it's this broader film about two –
Right. Like essentially an indigenous Mayan culture and then a very specific black imagined African culture. Right. That both are centrally are fighting off colonizers, either from the case of the 15th, 16th century and the case of Namor. Right. Like this long Spanish conquistador journey that he's been on or Wakanda in the past.
present because of its introduction to the global community, as they like to say, is now dealing with real-time colonizers, right? In the form of the United States and France. That was a real... I was like, this is really exciting. Like, the MCU gave us a movie about colonization. Yeah, but just that. I will say...
Leave room for fun. That's it. That's it. I'm still a Wakandian. I still rep it hard. I'm going to blast that soundtrack. I'm going to get into that score. What I got most excited about my one big note, and I hope this is true, is that Namor is, if you read the comic books, an original X-Men. So he's a mutant.
And that's why he doesn't look blue. He actually isn't the exact same. He's a bit different. He looks red hot is what he looks like. He's red hot. But what they're sprinkling and what we're hoping is that X-Men will finally come back without Bryan Singer attached and be its own universe with a normal universe.
So that's my prayer. That's what I hope. Can I give, and it's actually a really big criticism with Disney and Marvel continuing to reduce queer gay characters to like a kiss with no dialogue, which we noticed that at the end of Cole's character, Roxanne gay wrote one of the black Panther world of Wakanda comics. And it's about those two characters. They have a very beautiful, very complicated and rich relationship.
and story on their own. And it was really frustrating to see that yet again, when there is a quote unquote gay character, it's like reduced to like a forehead kiss, which I know has a lot to do with like the international markets and how will this go over in markets like China or whatever. But that was disappointing. And that kiss has already begun to be cut out in certain markets. Really? Yeah. I'm sure. Wow. That's for another day.
We should talk more about this movie, but not right now. We've got to wrap this segment. Listeners, let us know if you liked the movie or did not like the movie and why. You can always reach out to us. Send us an email at vibecheckatstitcher.com. Vibecheckatstitcher.com. With that, we're going to go to a break. When we come back, some recommendations to keep your vibe right. ♪
All right, we are back. Look at us. We survived the Black Panther Battle Royale debate. I'm so proud of us and our friendship. Same. I was scared. Yeah. Well, look, be true. I was like, damn, I really like Sam. I really do. I would hate him.
But also, as you guys know, we love to share something that's helping us keep our vibe right this week. I'm going to go first because the Grammy nominations are just now happening, and we've got to pay homage to our good sis, our good Judy, now Grammy-nominated for A Strange Loop, just got a nomination for Best Musical Theater Album. And of course, we know that Zach is one of the producers. Zach, congratulations!
Congratulations, Zach.
Look at this future EGOT queen. Look at her. Technically, technically, if we were to win, my name will not be on it. It is the writers and the performers of it. But I am so grateful to be the producer of the show that now can be up for a Grammy. So it's a really weird, exciting thing, which I did not realize that you could even get with a Broadway show until I began producing one. So it's wild. I'm just like really happy for Michael R. Jackson, who 20 years working on the show is now just like ticking away at the EGOT.
As he should. As he should. Yes. And I do want to recommend the – listen to the musical theater album for A Strange Loop. It's beautiful. And I hope if you are able to make it to New York and go see it live and in color and everything. But it's also one of those great musical theater albums where it does stand on its own. And it's just beautiful.
And I just think it almost kind of functions. I don't know. It's gorgeous, and I think people will really like it. The Memory song, periodically, in particular, probably my two favorites. So that's my recommendation. And also, I recommend that the Grammys pay homage to them.
They should. I mean, we're competing against MJ, so it's going to be a tough, tough fight. But I'm excited for that. And we also announced Jennifer Hudson, producer alongside with me, is re-recording the song Boundaries from the album. So that will come out before the Grammys too. So it's very, so we have more to come, more surprises in store as we continue our Broadway run until January 15th. So check it out. All right, Miss EGOT, work in progress. Zach,
There we go. What an incredible run. It's like every time we do another episode of Vibe Check, you know? You know, the blessings keep coming down. But what's your Vibe Check recommendation for the week? So mine for this week is to shout out one of my favorite Grammy winners, Janet Jackson. Specifically, her new TikTok account, which I've become really in love with.
because it gives you a really intimate view into Janet Jackson, who isn't a very public person. But specifically this past weekend, she was caught on camera dancing at a Soho house, at Shortage House, I think specifically, to a house music track just days before the icon Beyonce sweeps the Grammys, also this week, by becoming the most nominated artist of all time with a house music album. So the song that I love that Janet's dancing to and singing to, it's called Praise in His Name, and it's by Anne Nesbitt.
Ann Nesby is one of the voices in so much house music. She comes from the gospel world. I love Ann Nesby. She's amazing. But it's just the whole moment is great. Watch the video, listen to the song, honor our Black women who have all been Grammy winners. And Ann Nesby's been a Grammy nominee, too. She has not won, but a nominee. The most beautiful part of this Ann Nesby house song is that it is based on an old gospel song.
called Can't Stop Praising His Name that we used to sing in church growing up, Zach. So when you sent that video to the group chat, I was like, oh, this takes me back to Lockhart, Texas. I would play this song.
And this is the beauty of house music, the beauty of Beyonce's album. It's a melding of the sacred and the secular in a way that only black people and especially black women can do. So I'm just here for all of it. And to see Beyonce get these nominations in the electronic music category, that is also watershed. That category in Grammy history has been historically racist and white. And to see this black woman say, it's mine now, I,
Salute and celebrate all of it. Well, Sam, what is keeping your vibe right this week? So my recommendation this week comes from an earworm that I heard all weekend. So I was at the Hollywood Roosevelt Hotel this weekend for Vulture Fest.
When I wasn't talking to Shirley Ralph, I was just bopping around to panels here and there. But at the poolside party they had going on all weekend, the DJ, for whatever reason, played the same ABBA song like three or four times over the course of the weekend. It's one of my favorite ABBA songs called Give Me a Man. Give me a man, somebody help me change this show.
I love all things ABBA, but in hearing that song, it reminded me about my favorite book about pop music. This book, it is called The Song Machine Inside the Hit Factory, and it's written by John Seabrook. And he basically traces the history of white pop music from the 70s onward, and he draws a direct through line from ABBA to...
to ace of base to half of the chart-topping pop that we've heard in America for the last 20 years.
Long story short, the DNA of white top 40 pop music in America and across the world to this day was written by ABBA. It's incredible. Like all roads lead to ABBA when it comes to pop. This book makes it plain. I recommend it highly. It's so good. I love that you said that. And we like to correct records a lot on the show, but what I will give ABBA is that the Swedes revolutionized and changed pop music in ways that is very complimentary to black people.
It wasn't taken from other people.
I love it so. Go check it out. I love that. I'll see if I can find it, and I'll put it in the group text. But I saw recently a great video clip of an interview with Robin when someone asked her specifically, it was like, why are the Swedes so good at pop music? And she's not exactly sure herself, but she's like, maybe it's our tradition of folk music. It was just really interesting seeing someone like Robin, who's very much a part of this lineage and tradition, just kind of talk about like,
thinking about like swedes relation to folk music and expression of certain emotions that maybe that kind of helps when it comes to pop in particular i love that so nerdy all right all right well friends what are you feeling or not feeling this week what's your vibe how'd you feel about black panther wakanda you know what's your favorite abba song that you're rocking right now check in with us at vibecheck at stitcher.com
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