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We missed you, friend. We missed you very much. Needed a moment. A lot was going on, but it's good to be back. It's so good to have you. Well, we are so happy to have Saeed back in studio with us because we have a lot of big stuff to talk about this week. Yeah, y'all were like, he's back. Okay, let's go full in. Oh, it's going to be heavy. It's going to be heavy. I leave and y'all are like, Met Gala, Prince Charles, King Charles. I was like, oh, that sounds fun. Now I'm like, wait, what are we talking about? This week is work. So this week, we are going to talk about

Two pretty serious news topics that I'm sure you've seen in the headlines. First, America's child labor crisis. There's been a lot of extensive reporting for months now on the reality in this country that a lot of kids under 15 are doing a lot of work that they shouldn't be allowed to do. You might have seen the headlines about the two underage employees at a McDonald's recently. This stuff happens all across the country. We'll talk about it and talk about what can be done to possibly stop this and

And then after that, we will talk about a new study out from the U.S. Surgeon General's office that basically finds that loneliness and social isolation here in America is an epidemic. And they found that loneliness can be as deadly as smoking 15 cigarettes a day.

We'll talk about that and offer hopefully some suggestions for all of us to work on fighting loneliness because it's real. It's very, very real. It's real, but it is actionable. You know, this is an intense topic, but maybe it's just like as a writer, which I think I find to be a pretty lonesome enterprise. In a way, I'm excited to talk.

Yeah.

Oh, honey. So, you know, it's been a difficult few weeks at home. My dog, Caesar, we had to say goodbye to him a few days ago. I'm so sorry. Thank you. Thank you. I mean, you know, Zach and Sam have been so supportive. And Nora and Chantel, the whole team here, thank you for giving me the space to feel my feelings privately and just to make sense of all of this.

I wrote a little bit about it on my sub stack that folks can read. People have been very kind. Losing a pet, you know, as I've talked about, is kind of that contract of love. You know, to love deeply is to grieve deeply. I'm certainly not.

the only person even today who's gone through this kind of scenario, right? It's really hard, but I loved him so much. We could tell. Yeah, I think energy cannot be created nor destroyed. So I feel that the love and the curiosity and the side eye and everything he brought into my life is still a part of my life as it is a part of his, just in a different way. Yeah. And I could tell in every photo, he loved you too.

He loved me too. That dog loved you. You gave him a home and he was your home too. So it is such a beautiful thing that you shared with all of us. I think, you know, I got so many texts when your newsletter came out from folks who just, who never met Cesar, but had just looked to Cesar for a laugh, a smile, a whatever every week in your newsletter when you did share him. So thank you, Saeed, for sharing him with us. He was such a gift to everybody. And I guess one thing I would share that I think

might be helpful because it was helpful for me in these last few weeks. I think it is helpful if you're able to do so. Acknowledge for yourself when you're going through the grief and stuff, when you need to be by yourself. There were some days where I was like, I just at this point need to, I do just need to walk silently through my apartment. I do need to just kind of be in that fog and not feel the need to vocalize what I'm feeling. And then I could

feel when the weather changed inside me. And I was like, and now this is the time I need to be talking to people. I need to go to dinner with friends. I need to not just be stewing, you know? And I think it's, it's helpful whether it's grief or depression or whatever. Sometimes I think we can, you know, struggle to make those distinctions. Well, and I appreciate you modeling that behavior last week.

You could have said, I'm going to go to these podcast tapings as an emotional wreck, but you were honest with yourself and you said, I can't do it right now. And I think that more people should be honest about their emotions and what they're going through and,

Be true to yourself. You know, I admire you for being really open about how you're feeling and taking time for you and more folks should copy that model. Trying. Yeah. Zach, how you doing? I'm good. I'm tired. I was out late last night. What were you doing last night? I was out. She was out about on a weeknight? On a Monday. Okay.

On a school night? On a school night because I had to go take part in a little bit of history, which was the Little Mermaid world premiere starring the Halle Bailey live action. Oh, that's a good reason to be out on a school night. It's a really good reason. And the trick to being out on a school night is not drinking. I didn't drink. I ate some popcorn. I had a Diet Coke, but I didn't drink. That's like the real trick there. But I was able to be at the world premiere of the film, which stars Halle Bailey, who's the first black Ariel. And I really, let me say this to you.

Because I can't get into the details of the movie. You can't say if you like it or not. I enjoyed it. I liked it. Mickey Mouse is standing right behind Zack. I can actually say this. I walked into Last Night Being. I told Craig, I really want to meet Bob Iger. Like, I just really want to meet him. Like, he's such an icon and a legend and complicated. He's like Disney's Zaddy, though, right? People are into him. Wait, what? No, it is well known in this town that...

that he is a good-looking older man. He's very good-looking. I've seen him in the flesh once or twice, and I'm like, oh, he's taking care of himself. Bob Iger is daddy. I never could have guessed this is where this conversation was going to go, but proceed while I look him up. This is where it's going. So Bob Iger, daddy, the daddy, Disney daddy, mouse daddy. Okay. I said mouse daddy. I'm looking at a picture. Okay, you proceed.

I am walking out of the movie, up a stairwell to leave to go to the after party. And Craig and I are jokingly like arm and arm being very gay at the Disney premiere. And we look up and who's coming right at us with their security and needs us to stop being so gay is Bob Iger. Anyway, what I can say about the movie is when you watch this movie, you will be moved to real emotions and tears because Halle Bailey is...

is triumphant in it. She can sing and act at the same time, which most of these girls cannot do. When they start singing, they forget that they're acting. They just go really blank face. She is moving. She's emoting. And the songs are beautiful with her voice. Way better than ever before. Some of the other music, not as exciting to me. There's new songs. Yeah. This is what I'm thinking when I saw that there are going to be new songs. It's like, why? One of the best Disney soundtracks of all time. I'm glad you asked that because...

do they give Halle Bailey new songs? Because the issue with The Little Mermaid, and if you haven't watched it in a minute, hello, she doesn't talk for like 90% of the movie, right? So do they give her more? Because I was like, I want to hear her sing more. I do not think she is given more

more songs she does sing the same song a few times because they do change some of the story and the big part of the story is the mermaids are sirens and this is about a relationship between sirens and people so it's about sisterhood and not chasing a man sisterhood sisterhood's a huge part of it but she's still chasing a man yeah she's still chasing a man girl you're chasing a man we're all chasing a man let me tell you something

He's chasing me. He's chasing me. I'm independently owned. Who amongst us has not chased a man and made bad decisions? So anyway, the movie is really wonderful. Melissa McCarthy is a fun time as Ursula. You will have a great time. It is going to be so successful. It's already tracking to be a huge movie. I enjoyed it. It was like a little moment, but I saw a video of Melissa McCarthy who plays Ursula busting

bowing on the red carpet before Nina West, the drag queen from Columbus, Ohio. And I just love that because as we know, Ursula has its roots in queerness, in drag. And so I like that Melissa McCarthy is very aware of the history of the character that she played and of course what's going on in this country right now. It was beautiful. Subtle, but I liked it. Anyway, Sam, how are you? I'm okay. It's just been a really busy season. Yeah.

Earlier, it felt like it was busy with seeing people moving around France, but that was great busy. Now, work is just feeling a little overwhelming, and I'm in this mode that I have to get in sometimes where I tell myself as the day starts, as I make the to-do list, I write it down, then I say out loud, you will not check everything off this list today, and that's okay. I think I'm in this season of understanding that I cannot finish everything, and that's to be expected, right?

So giving myself grace to say, you might have an eternal forever to-do list. It's okay if you don't get everything off of it. So that's where I'm at right now. I'm also really just bummed out watching the ongoing coverage of this horrible death in the New York subway of Jordan Neely. I don't have anything new to add to this conversation besides it is heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking to see this man lose his life. It's heartbreaking to see the way leaders in New York are

talk about his death and talk about the mentally ill and talk about the unhoused. And it's heartbreaking to think that this guy who choked Jordan out for 15 minutes might get away with it. 15 minutes, 15 minutes, you know, very, I mean, that's bringing me down. That's bringing me down. 15 minutes is an eternity for a moment like that. Yeah. I've, I've been in New York. I'm in New York right now. And, um,

I'll just say, there always have been a lot of NYPD officers in the subways for the last few years. But it is... Baby, there are more cops in the subways right now than rats. And we'll just leave it at that. Yeah. And I will be perfectly honest, I don't think...

those cops are there to help people who look like the three of us or Jordan. I think they are more likely to help people who are former Marines. And I'll leave it at that. One, shout out to all the protesters in New York who are giving these folks hell. And those protests have been loud and I love it. But I think one of the signs that I saw that really spoke to me the most out of New York, somebody wrote, a middle class white discomfort is not danger. It's not. And

And I think that in this moment, it would be really important for all of us to think about the ways in which we

see someone or something as dangerous when they're not. This is what it's all about. I mean, we talked about that weeks ago on the show. We had that whole conversation about when you find yourself afraid of something in the streets, check in with yourself and ask yourself, what are you afraid of? What is it tied to? In this moment, I think we're going to be able to tie the architecture of this man's fear and where it kind of roots itself and why he decided 15 minutes in a chokehold was

Deserving. So, yeah, check in with yourself in public. And I think that is such an important thing to underscore. And I guess the other thing I would just say, pay attention to your response to noise. You know, in Columbus, there are a lot of—there's drag racing, but it's like the motorcycles, I don't even know what they're called, but those dirt bikes, they're really loud. And that's become an issue. And I—

I don't know, I would just say pay attention to your response of you're walking by a bodega and they're blasting music or whatever, and you're like, "I'm gonna call the cops," you know, like that. I think there's a relationship between noise, gentrification, and police state violence that has a lot to do what's going on, you know, what happened to Jordan Neely, but I also think we're seeing this across our communities. - Can I offer a recommendation

on that topic. There's a really good essay from last year in the Atlantic that touches on this very thing, whiteness, class, and noise. It actually was a finalist for a Pulitzer. Those were announced yesterday. This article is called, Why Do Rich People Love Quiet?

Anyone into this conversation right now should check it out. It's written by Xochitl Gonzalez. We'll share it in the show notes, but it's a very good read. It's very good. All right. Well, before we get into the episode, we want to thank all of you who sent us fan mail, reached out to us on social media. We absolutely love reading your messages. We talk about them. You know, there's so much going on in the world that,

There are a lot of topics we can't get to every week, but that doesn't mean we don't think about them and try to figure out maybe how we can get to them in the future. So we love the emails and the feedback. Keep them coming at vibecheckatstitcher.com. All right, friends, let's jump in, shall we? Let's do it. Let's do it.

All right. So to start things off today, we're going to dive into what we are going to call a growing crisis that we are all just kind of hearing about. And the reason why we're hearing about this new crisis is that just over the past few months, we've seen some incredible reporting coming out of The Washington Post and The New York Times, all focusing on a really big issue that we all should be paying attention to, which is really young kids are working really dangerous jobs.

And when we say young kids, we're talking about kids under 16. And no, they're not just cashing you out of the movie theater. They're working on construction sites. They're working in factories. They're doing very, very good work. Yeah, can I list just some quick examples? This is from New York Times investigative reporter Hannah Dreyer. She interviewed over 100 migrant children working in 20 states. One example, a 12-year-old girl in Alabama working overnight stamping machine parts. A 12-year-old in Florida who came to the country and the next day was working to produce

put roofing on houses, a 13-year-old child in Michigan working 12-hour shifts at an egg farm six days a week. It's wild. And a news story that broke out, because I feel excited, I'm so glad that you said those, because people aren't focusing a lot on the migrant stories, and we'll get into that part of it. They're talking a lot about certain groups of people. So McDonald's has been in the news because one of the local franchisees is being fined over $200,000 for breaking federal child labor laws for

employing two 10-year-olds and not paying them either, which is also wild. You're putting kids to work and not even giving them coins, which doesn't really matter at the end of the day, the coins, because you're exploiting children, but it's just really messed up. But here's a really big number, and we'll dive into this. The federal government recently confirmed that illegal use of child labor in the U.S. is on the rise, like the Times and the Post have been saying, because in the last fiscal year, over 830 companies employed more than 3,800 children illegally. Wow.

And that's what we know. That's what we know. And we know this a lot more. Yeah. So the Labor Department, they report that they've seen a 69% increase in minors employed in violation of federal law since 2018. That's a 69% increase. And that's just the stuff that they find and is being reported. Something I learned while getting ready for today's conversation was,

And actually, I would love it if there are labor experts who listen to the podcast and want to help read us in. But my understanding, at least, is that even with the federal child labor protections that we have had for years and years and years, they have never actually impacted field work.

And so people picking your strawberries and your blueberries and your organic safe carrots and your da-da-da-da-da. Like those kids have actually never been protected by federal law, which that was really shocking to me.

Yeah. And I also learned, you know, that these things aren't criminally charged. You know, you think of when I think of child labor and exploitation, I think it's just fines. They're not actually criminal issues. They're civil issues. They're seen as business issues, not you actually putting harm. And what's sad is because these kids are being put in real harm. They're breaking fingers, having fingers cut off. Some of them are dying. There was a case in the South the other day where a 15-year-old fell off the roof of

of something or a high level platform and died. And it's just really, really wild. And we aren't seeing them do anything about it because it's currently just become so mirrored in immigration and all these other issues that are happening. But I think for y'all, with child labor, I never knew this was going to be, I never thought this was going to be an issue as a kid. I began working at 14 years

And I remember trying to get a job at 13. I applied for a job in my very nice town. And they denied me because they were like, you're too young. Come back when you are of age and your parents are there and they can sign off on this. But I felt really protected. But lately, it just feels like these have all disappeared. What are you all's experiences with this child labor stuff? I started working when I was 14.

One of the members of my church growing up, she and her family owned three McDonald's. Our families were close. And she was like, when you're of age, come work at the McDonald's. And loved her, trusted her. She was doing a solid for me. But in Texas, if you sign some kind of waiver, either an agricultural waiver or a hardship waiver, you can begin working when you're 14. So my mother signed it. I began working. But I was under the supervision of a church friend. It was only during the summer. Yeah.

And I don't think I ever worked more than like 20 or 25 hours a week in the summer, right? And this is why I am so flabbergasted by the conservative argument that this is good for parents. You know, a lot of the framing of the debate for folks who want to get these bills signed that would loosen the regulations around child labor, they say, well, we need to give parents the freedom and choice to help have their kids work should they want to if it works for their family.

That's bullshit because that was already the case. Parents can already sign off to send their kids to work when they're as young as 14 in most of the country. And we'll talk more about it later, but the concerted effort to push bills across the country that would make it even easier for young kids to work.

It is a concerted effort and we should question it. Yeah. I'm glad you're pointing this out because, yeah, and it's a misdirect. And I'm glad, Zach, you asked how it's different from, yeah, because I don't know. I worked my first job. I think I was 14, 15. I think I did lie. I think I was 14. I was actually 14, but I said I was 15 so that I could push carts

in the Texas heat for the summer, which was actually an awful, really unpleasant job. But, you know, I wanted to work. For me, it was an opportunity to have a, you know, I didn't get an allowance growing up. So it was an opportunity for me to have a little bit of money to, I don't know what I was spending, you know, rent movies from Blockbuster Video. But I think it's interesting the misdirect Republicans

And the lobbyists who are working in coordination with Republicans because they're trying to make it sound like the demographic that will be most poignantly impacted are like teenagers. And I think obviously they're talking about white teenagers. Oh, yeah. Working at your –

grocery store like a Trader Joe's bagging groceries or working at McDonald's at the register. And that's not the case. But I just it was interesting. Like there's a Republican politician who I'll probably refer to later where he basically was like talking about this. And he was like, quote, this is less time they will have spending on social media like TikTok and others. And I'm like, no, this is not middle class white teenagers working at Trader Joe's. This is a 12 year old boy who's working 12 hour shifts on an egg fry.

farm. And we should point out, it's usually migrant children. So that same reporter that you referenced, Hannah Dreyer, she estimates that about 250,000 kids have crossed into the U.S. without their parents in the last two years alone. And she speculates that the majority of those kids end up working full-time jobs. So when we have this conversation about folks working here who are too young, it's usually migrants who have no protections and often no family out here.

And not just full-time jobs. I mean, full-time jobs and more. They are working these jobs overnight shifts because they are going to school during the day. So you have their schedules being like 6 a.m. to 3 p.m. at school. Then they maybe get time to go find some food, and then they go directly to a factory and work all night. And she was able to find these kids, and other reporters were able to find these kids, because they go to shift changes at 6 in the morning and midnight and find young kids.

Where there's like less oversight and stuff because it's the middle of the night. Exactly. And these kids, you know, they came here because in the pandemic, in a lot of their countries of origin, they didn't have any resources, no clean water, no food, and they had to flee. And many of them left parents behind who couldn't travel. And when they crossed over, they had family members or strangers or whoever that became their sponsors. And they were hoping to, you know, send some money back by doing some work.

but none of them ever expected to be exploited to this level to where they're like literally getting sick and dying. Oh yeah. Well, and like we should talk about at the same time, we're uncovering more and more instances of young kids being forced to work way too hard. We're seeing conservative states across the country, uh,

push through child labor laws that would make it even easier for kids to work, right, Zach? Yeah. So right now what you're seeing is a huge expansion in how children can work in America. So as Sam and Saeed have both pointed out, we've always allowed young people to work. Teenagers are a huge block

of labor in the United States to keep our economy rolling through. So that's why we have so many jobs at theaters, babysitting, lifeguards. These are crucial for the economy at large. But lately, due to the pandemic, Republicans have been using this excuse that due to remote work, people not wanting to do certain jobs, that they need to expand child laws so that we have a bigger labor force. And what they're expanding them into are jobs that

kids should not even be considered doing or what they're doing is leaving a lot of gray zones there. So as you've heard us talk about, a lot of us when we were under 16 had to get parents to sign off on it or a working permit. In certain states like Arkansas, you just have a working permit if you're underage.

Republicans want to erase all of that. So they want to erase all the tracking of children, which allows for them to be exploited in a really big level. Well, and so you see these bills moving through Minnesota, Missouri, Arkansas, Iowa, Ohio, and more. And when you look a little further...

They all come from one place. There's a really interesting Washington Post piece that found that most of these child labor bills are coming from the Foundation for Government Accountability. It's a Florida-based think tank and lobbying group. And according to Open Secrets and WAPO, they have 115 lobbyists across the country with the presence in 22 states looking to loosen the rules around child labor.

And on top of just lobbying for this, they've gone as far as to help lawmakers draft the bills themselves. And they have a name for this. The FGA, which has joined the State Policy Network, it's this confederation of conservative state-level think tanks. They call the practice of shopping these bills and making these bills for mass distribution, they call it the IKEA model of advocacy. IKEA, like the furniture store? Yeah, they make the prefab parts.

And then every state house can build their furniture with the pieces they've made. The furniture being the law. It's wild. And this model has been applied to trans rights, to education. All these things that you're seeing roll through legislatures really quickly, it's because of groups like this and ALEC who are really building these to-go packages. And before they shop them around, before they build the parts for the IKEA furniture bills, they'll focus group this stuff.

They figured out how to message on trans issues after months of focus grouping and survey collecting to see what would make the most impact. And it ends up with this system where like with all of these things that are hurting people across the country with child labor, with trans rights, with critical race theory. The one through line of the argument for all of these things is parental rights, parental rights.

They say that because they focus grouped it and it works. Yeah. I wanted to focus on one of the states, Ohio, obviously, where this is happening. In March, the Ohio State Senate passed SB 30, moving it to the House for consideration. It would extend the hours 14 and 15-year-olds can work during the school year. And because, as we know, based on reporting, that migrant youth will be disproportionately impacted by this shift,

in child labor policy, I wanted to read something that one of the leading advocates for the bills said in a Republican state. Senator Jerry Serrano said, quote,

Nobody in this chamber would ever do anything to endanger our children here. Our children. Our children. There you go. I was like, you're absolutely right. It's not going to be little Billy, little Timmy, little Sally, you know, working in these places. It's kids that you know have no one to speak for them. They're already incredibly vulnerable. And so the broader thing that I wanted to point out here is –

I think this crisis, a manufactured crisis, it's not like weather, right? It is something that's being done. There are actors making this happen. It's inherently a problem that children are being endangered, that we're stealing their education away. But also, I want to remind everyone—

that societies say so much about their direction based on how they treat their most vulnerable populations, their prisoners, their poor, their children. And if these industries, if the Ohio Restaurant Association, which is supporting this child labor policy change, if they're willing to do this to children, think about what they're doing to the rest of us. You know what I mean? It's like care about children, period, but also understand that it's a signifier of balance.

broader pushes that are being taken. They're trying to cut corners in every way they can, which is really scary. Well, and Zach, I heard you just about the question, like, what's up with this whole pitch of like parental rights? All of these attacks that we're seeing across the country on trans kids, on

on teaching history to kids in schools, on child labor. There's this through line of supposed parental rights. I find it quite interesting. Yeah. It just feels like this really odd contradiction. And I guess we should end here is that what the Republicans love to do in my point of view is they like to publicly posture like they're protecting your home, your house, your family, all these things. But they're using that as kind of like

a gaslighting mechanism to really destroy families and destroy children. So they get to say, well, we're going to, we are actually doing this to protect our kids and our families. But to Said's point, these are just facades to say white people, rich white people, middle-class white people, et cetera. And that kids of color, the most oppressed will be erased because we do not actually see them as American. So we can do with them what we please. And it's just really depressing. And if you really wanted to protect kids and families, you wouldn't be cutting food stamps.

You would be expanding healthcare for all. You'd be fighting for free lunches for children. There you go. Free pre-K. Like all of these things. Don't get me started. All this to say, keep your eyes open, folks. And none of this is an accident. This is on purpose. Yeah.

And I would say to wrap, do not let the immigration issues that are happening in Congress block your empathy for these kids. A kid is a kid is a kid. We should be protecting kids no matter what their country of origin is. So do not let them gaslight you into dehumanizing 13-year-olds. Yeah. It's also like, you think it ends with immigrants? You think this ends with migrant youth?

You know, you think reproductive justice ends with abortion? No. They're always going to go further once they get what, that's how fascism works. So yes, we should straight up just care about these kids, but also understand that if you can delude yourself for now and say, well, this isn't really impacting me and my family. Oh, it will. Just wait. Yeah. It will, it will. Well, with that, let's take a quick break. And when we're back, we're talking about loneliness. So stay tuned.

This message is brought to you by McDonald's. Did you know only 7.3% of American fashion designers are Black? Well, McDonald's 2024 Change Leaders Program is ready to change the face of fashion. The innovative program awards a monetary grant to five emerging Black American designers and pairs each with an industry professional to help them elevate their brands. I

I know specifically and distinctly how McDonald's can support and empower not just black Gen Z but black people. My first job was McDonald's. I learned a lot there about customer service and how to relate to people. I still love that place and go there very often. Look out for the change of fashion designers and mentors

at events like the BET Awards and the Essence Festival of Culture. And follow the journey of the 2024 McDonald's Change Leaders on their Instagram page, We Are Golden.

Here's an HIV pill dilemma for you. Picture the scene. There's a rooftop sunset with fairy lights and you're vibing with friends. You remember you've got to take your HIV pill. Important, yes, but the fun moment is gone. Did you know there's a long-acting treatment option available? So catch the sunset and keep the party going. Visit pillfreehiv.com today to learn more. Brought to you by Veve Healthcare.

All right, we are back and we're going to switch gears to what I'm going to call the Britney Spears segment. Our loneliness is killing us. Wow.

I was like, I'm going to let him ride. Just came to me. I'm going to trust the process. When you began that, I did not know where that was going. And it did land. It landed somewhere, but it landed. Listen, listen. Anywho, let's talk about loneliness. This is a thing that we all have dealt with at some point in our lives, especially these last few years during pandemic. But there's a study out now saying that loneliness isn't just a problem. It's basically an epidemic.

Y'all probably saw the headlines last week, Vivek Murthy, the US Surgeon General, he put out this 80 something page study all about loneliness and isolation.

And the biggest factoid in this study was that social isolation has as negative an effect on mortality as smoking up to 15 cigarettes a day. This study also said that loneliness and social isolation lead to a greater risk of cardiovascular disease, dementia, stroke, depression, anxiety, and premature death.

I mean, can we pause? 15 cigarettes a day. Yeah. I mean, I'm not around a lot of smokers, but I just think that is such a...

Like vivid, alarming image, right? Like if one of you, if one of my beloved friends, if I saw you smoking 15 cigarettes a day, I would have to say we would do something immediately. And for context of that, it's 20 cigarettes in a pack. So almost a full pack. But this is the thing. We'll see a friend chain smoking and intervene.

We'll see a lonely friend. Do we intervene? And it is epidemic proportions here in the U.S. All the data suggests that loneliness and social isolation is getting worse and worse and worse. I want to quote a piece from Vox just to give some detail before we jump in. But they wrote, quote, in the 1970s, almost half of Americans said they could generally trust other people. Today, less than a third say the same.

The amount of time that Americans say they spend alone every day had risen by nearly 30 minutes from 2003 to 2019. And it increased even 20 minutes more in the first year of the pandemic. That means that many Americans added an additional full day of solitude over the course of a month. Right now, half of the country says they have three or fewer close friends. And

And just 16% of Americans say they feel very attached to their local community. Got to start by asking...

These findings, this study, does any of it surprise y'all? No. No. God, no. I live in LA. I think LA is the loneliest city in the world. It is. I've always said. When I moved here, I moved from Chicago, and I felt sick after a few months from the lack of touch. And when I mean touch, it's not like I went to work, I did all these things. But in Chicago, I was so in community constantly. I had to walk down the street. I walked past people. I shared trains.

I was also in college recently. I was just touching and around people a lot. When I got here, I would wake up in my apartment alone. I'd get in my car and drive in traffic alone. And I would sit in my office alone. And that feels really applicable to everyone in the world actually now as we live in a digital world.

where you're so close to everyone, but you can't actually touch them or be with them. So you have this kind of anxiety of, I know so many people. I follow a thousand people on social media, but why do I actually not feel like I know anybody? And I feel like due to this hyper-connectivity we have in the world,

this is making us feel even more lonely because we feel like the weight of what could be and we just can't reach that could be in real time. Yeah, I'm not surprised. I think this has been a building issue or at least building in its visibility for the last few years. And then the pandemic happened. So I think obviously it's one exacerbated it to a certain extent, but also I think got a lot of people to look into it. But I'm also not surprised because I...

I decided to look up like the history of the word loneliness. Oh, look at this poet. I love it. And shocker, loneliness comes into common usage around the year 1800 in English speaking countries. And that's interesting because the Industrial Revolution is basically 1760 to 1800.

40. And so loneliness comes in and Jill Lepore says that loneliness quote is a vogue term. And like all vogue terms is a cover for all sorts of things most people would rather not name and have no idea to fix. And so I just think, you know, and everything like Zach just said, like notice like technology, modernity, you're in your car, you're on your phone, digital, dah, dah, dah, dah, you go to work, we're on Zoom. I

I think loneliness, as we're talking about it, is very much connected to modern life, to Western American life. And yeah, here we are. Here we are dealing with the fallout of it. I want to talk a bit with y'all about some of the causes because at this point, it's very documented. I'm going to go back to quoting Vox. They kind of get into the causes of this. One, people are less likely to get married and they're having fewer children.

Two, a lot of Americans are less likely to belong to some church or some religious group. And then more and more people are living alone. The percentage of households that comprise a single person living by themselves has doubled from 1960 to 2022.

And this is the big one that's become a real threat to a lot of us the last decade or so. People who spend more than two hours a day on social media report feeling more isolated than other people do.

So there's all of these factors here. And all of this also is exacerbated by being a racial minority, by being queer, by having lower income. But I'm wondering which of these causes is actually the easiest to overcome. I don't think I ever want to tell people you need to not live alone, to not be lonely. Right.

But can we say maybe use your phone less? Can we say maybe if you're into church, go back to church? Like which of these factors feels like it's the most tackleable?

I think, and looking into what other experts have said, one, I think it's important to acknowledge that you feel lonely. And I really like that Zach pointed out that you can be surrounded by people, engaging people on a regular basis. You can be talking to people all day long, basically, on your phone or in person, and still feel lonely. UCLA, some doctors there, created a loneliness scale. And I just wanted to point out just some of the statements they asked us to ask ourselves about.

I have nobody to talk to. I feel as if nobody really understands me. I feel isolated from others. I am no longer close to anyone. So I think the first important step is acknowledging, you know, it's not necessarily, oh, well, I was just at happy hour with my coworkers last night, or I was just at a church. You know, it's also like, well, how did you feel? I think the question is like, do you feel...

at home in your daily life? Or do you feel othered in your daily life? Do you feel like you're constantly striving to bridge your gap between yourself and the people around you? And if that's the case, I think the first thing I would tell someone is to pick up the phone and call someone who you smile at the thought of. And it's okay.

if you haven't spoken to them in a long time. It's okay if it's a cousin that you haven't seen in two family reunions or a college friend or someone. But who, when you just think of like, oh yeah, that roommate from, just pick up the phone and call them. And I think it's like the small effort, you know, in the same way, like with depression or anxiety, my therapist will be like, get out and go for a walk for 15 minutes. That small gesture is the beginning of that shift. Yeah, and I had to build on that, you know,

As someone that is chronically busy and around a lot of people all the time. You're the busiest man I know. You are. Thank you. Thank you, Curtsy. I would say that at my busiest, I feel my loneliest when I am around a ton of people all the time, moving, flying constantly, and I just feel so lonely. And it's because I'm not really embodied. I'm kind of an autopilot. I'm not very present. I'm not around people I actually care about that I want to connect with.

with. And I also don't feel like I'm being seen as myself. I remember one of the first arguments I got in with my boyfriend when we first started seeing each other is when the pandemic hit, he said to me, do you miss your old life where you were always flying and going to events and doing everything? And I said, no, I'm actually happier right now in the pandemic with him because I felt like I woke up every day and there was someone in my life that saw me and heard me and could keep up with me. I could keep up with myself. I wasn't disassociating, losing myself. And I think

to what Saeed's point is making, is that loneliness can't be solved by just busying yourself, being around a lot of people. You need to be around people that actually see you, that you feel your shoulders drop around, that you feel yourself relaxed with, that you feel you can actually say what you actually are feeling to, because that will be the real solve. Being around people you don't like will only make you feel worse at the end of the day. Well, that's the part. And I kind of want to go back to this list of the causes that I ran through.

I think the one cause of loneliness that is the most pernicious and can be the hardest to shake is the influence of our smartphones and social media. So the data says actually that people who spend two hours a day on social media or more are more prone to feel lonely than other folks.

And it's this conundrum because when you're on social media, you think you're talking to a lot of your friends, right? You think you're engaging with actual people. It's just not the same. It's not the same. And I've had to make a very concerted effort in my own life to put the phone down, put the social media down and say to myself, the only actual cure for a certain kind of loneliness is to be in physical proximity with other people. And social media,

often cannot duplicate that. And I don't want to ever tell someone, don't use a thing that brings you community. If you are disabled, if you are shut in, if you're going through something, that might be your only lifeline. But I think for a lot of people, we allow the performance of community on social media to replace the beneficial effects of real community. And that's been the biggest challenge for me. And I think the bomb...

For loneliness, it can be very subtle. You know, just two examples that come to mind. I remember the last time I was living in New York and was just really struggling. And again, I was living the media person's dream and all that kind of stuff. But I wasn't having those meaningful interactions. And I just remember once going to a CVS. I was already having a rough day.

I went to a CVS and I intentionally went to the cashier, not to the self-checkout because I wanted to interact with the person. And I just remember the person scanning all of my stuff and they didn't look up once.

And it just made me so sad because it wasn't this person at the register spurning me. I was like, look at us, two lonely people right next to each other, you know? And then another example, I think this was like spring, summer 2021. I took a Lyft. I had run some random errand and an older black woman was my Lyft driver.

And she just reminded me so many of the women I grew up with, the women who have raised me and that I love so much and that I missed a lot in particular during the pandemic. And we just talked and complained about bad drivers and the city not cleaning up the snow and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, and whatever. And I got out and said, okay, have a good day, Miss Brenda or whatever. And I walked into my apartment and I burst into tears of joy because it was such a

lovely five-minute conversation with a stranger and it had been so long since I'd had one of those in person like you're saying, Sam. It's just not the same. It's not. And those connections, they actually help fight loneliness. And there are other moments in my life where I'm really, really lonely where I have to reach out to someone and say, I'm lonely. Can I just talk with you? Can I just be with you? And I think

This is often the challenge in solving a problem like loneliness. There's so many problems we face where we think that we can solve it ourselves. If I'm a hundred money, I can work harder and get more money. If I don't look the right way, I can work harder and then look better. If you're lonely, it's a problem you can't solve on your own. And so to admit that and ask for help to solve that problem requires us to let go of some ego and to say to ourselves and to others, I can't fix this one myself.

And that can be hard. Something that happened to me the other day that has been on my mind and I've wanted to share on the show because I think everyone should try it is a friend of mine who I don't get to speak to often because we're both very busy, text me and said, do you have eight minutes this week? Just eight minutes I want to catch up. And

And I guess there was an article in the Times months and months ago that said, if you're very busy, feel like you're not connecting with people, find someone that you haven't spoken to in a while and schedule eight minutes with them. That's it. And I said yes. And I didn't want to say yes. And he listens to the show, George, We Love You. And I did it. And it was the most amazing eight, maybe ten minutes.

Because we jumped right in. What's going on? What are the highlights? And I have been trying to do that more with people where it's like, okay, let me just find eight minutes of quality time with someone. And it can go on after that if you'd like, but just be intentional and try to search for people and you can find a way out. To vibe with that, another solution I found that was really interesting, and I'm going to try to do it because I don't do this. It said, you're busy.

Someone calls you and you're like I don't have time right now, you know My impulse would be I'm not gonna reply and then I'll text them later It said it would be more valuable for you to pick up the phone and say hey, I'm sorry I'm about to run into recording vibe check. What's up? It's good to hear your voice, but I gotta go baby that quick interaction That's what 15 seconds is more valuable than putting off and whatever and I don't know that's that's a shift in

I will say to close this segment, I think as we all tend to our mental health and our emotional health and some truly trying times, one thing that's always helpful for me in moving forward is naming things specifically.

You can say that you're lonely, naming your loneliness, naming your emotions. That's the first way to start to try to fix these things. I think a lot of times men especially will use any other word besides the actual thing that they're feeling. We call everything anger. If you're lonely, say you're lonely. Tell your people that you're lonely. You can only fix these things once you name them. We got to be honest with ourselves.

about who we are and the things that we're dealing with. Going through everything in the last few weeks with Caesar, it was just really hard. I think it's fair to say I'm good at talking about my feelings and all this, but it was just really difficult. And I had to sit down and do the basics of...

Sit down with a legal pad and a pen and write like I'm scared anxious devastated and then I would just follow up with why and then I'm scared and just because of that you know and just you can do that for yourself it doesn't necessarily require you to like Directly go to someone and just like spill out all your emotions and your own privacy you can begin to do this work. Yeah, I

Listeners, we could talk about this for hours. We could. Tell us how you deal with loneliness, how you fight it. Tell us what's working for you, what's not working for you. Send us follow-up questions about loneliness. We'll probably talk about that topic again on this show because there is a lot to talk about. All right. With that, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, our recommendations. We'll be right back.

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For the ones you'll always look out for, trust Amika Life Insurance. Amika. Empathy is our best policy. Okay, my loves, we are back. And before we end the show, we'd like to share something that's helping us keep our vibes right this week. Sam, you want to go first? Yes, I'm pulling up the article right now. And I think it's really timely for all of our listeners who are thinking about loneliness and possibly also thinking about the new Little Mermaid.

I have a series of essays, poems, book chapters that I go back to, and I call them my modern scriptures. Ooh, I like that. They are often secular writings that just bring me positivity and warmth, and I look to them like a warm blanket on a cold day. I love that. I want to recommend one of my modern scriptures right now. It is a profile of Melissa McCarthy written by Taffy Bradeser-Akner in the New York Times back in 2018. Oh.

I thought of this hearing Zach speak about The New Little Mermaid because Melissa's in it. But this essay, this profile is called This Melissa McCarthy Story Just Might Maybe Possibly Cheer You Up. And it does. I love celebrity profiles, but there's something that happens around the last third of this one that makes you feel grateful to be alive. And then you start weeping tears of joy.

I can't overstate how good this essay will make you feel. This profile will make you feel. I need to reread it. I remember when it came... And I really like Melissa McCarthy. Yeah. She makes me smile. And Taffy's great. She wrote the book that inspired Fleissman's in Trouble. Exactly. The show on Hulu. Yeah. If you like good writing, if you like Melissa McCarthy, if you like Taffy, if you like your day to be brightened by reading...

a good profile of a celebrity, read this, read this, read this. It's so good. I also like this idea of your modern scripture. So I used to, it's been a minute since I've done this, but yeah, I used to print off

interviews, articles. Sometimes I would copy a picture. This is really when I had access to a university printer, Xerox machine. But, you know, like a cool photo in a magazine and I would make like a little binder and just have that for myself and just like inspiration and stuff. Don't get the big head, Saeed, but a few of your poems are modern scriptures for me. Oh,

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I got him filed away, baby. Anywho, we'll share the link for this profile. It's so, so good. Okay. All right. My recommendation, you know, it's been, as I said, a rough few weeks. Like, there are times when you're, like, running around and running around and, you know, your eyes are red with tears. And then there are times where you just have to sit and wait and see how it goes or whatever. So my recommendation is a video game.

called Witchwood. It's witch spelled W-Y-T-C-H. It's this beautiful, simple, illustrated video game. It's very calm, and you play a very old, tired witch who's just going around the woods and the swamps and the graveyards collecting herbs and plants and mushrooms to make spells.

It's very simple, but it's so beautiful. And you're like, oh, I need to go collect water. Oh, I need to go find this specific type of mushroom or frog, you know. And it's just very simple and like meditative. Which system is it on? Is it a phone thing? I played it on PS5, but I think you can play it on your phone as well. Yeah, it's very simple. If you're looking for a game that's just like, you just want to be calm, simple little tasks. And the magic is fun. You mix this, you mix that.

You're going to find fairies so you can collect pixie dust. It's pretty cool. And mind you, you're all doing it at the bidding of an evil goat that's probably the devil. So there's that. I'm always going to give you a little goth girl. Yeah, very bad.

Well, that was my, that made me feel good this week. Zach, what's your recommendation? Maya's not the devil, you know, not a witch. And it is this book called We See Each Other that is out today by Travelle Anderson with a foreword from Angelica Ross. Collapsed for Travelle, our friend. Travelle's a friend of all of ours. They're the sister podcast, Fanti. They host that. They also host

What a day. What a day. We used to be journalists together at Out Magazine and The Advocate. We've just known each other all for, all of us have known each other for a long time, but this is their first book. And it is a memoir mixed with a historical telling of trans people in film and television. Love it.

which is just amazing to kind of see Terrell place themselves within the texts and to tell the story of the world, but also how they fit into the world too through film. I love that. And it just feels like a good moment to point out this in a moment of which trans people are just, and non-binary people are under such pressure

critical attacks. I mean, whether it's, you know, Senator Zoe Zephyr, you know, being blocked in the legislature of Montana, who's dealing with that. She also has found her own joy by getting engaged this past week. Oh, congratulations. Which is amazing. But I think with every time we talk about, this is like your test. Whenever you talk about something bad happening to trans people, find something good or support a trans person where you can. And so this week, if you're overwhelmed with everything happening, buy Travelle's book, send it to the New York Times top 10 and do some good in the world. I bet you're going to say just send it to the New York Times.

Because they need to read it. That's true. But I also would love to see Travelle's book on the New York Times bestseller list. But I was like, no, literally mail it to the headquarters. Mail it. New York. They really do. They need some help. Throw it at the nearest New York Times editor. All right. We'll leave it there for now. I am very trans joy and in Travelle's work. I'm excited to read that book. We see each other. I love that. A Black Trans Journey Through TV and Film. I love that. By Travelle Anderson. And check out the Fentai podcast. Yeah.

Their podcast is great. I love it. All right, friends. Well, what are you feeling or not feeling this week? What's your vibe? Check in with us at vibecheckatstitcher.com. Thank you for tuning in to this week's episode of Vibe Check. If you love the show and want to support us, please make sure you blackmail one of your friends into downloading it immediately and giving it five stars on at least two apps. And if they don't, anti-black.

Wow. I always wonder if people make it to the credits, you know, and now I'm like, let's get it. We're going to find out. We're going to find out. Let's up the ante even more. Send us a voice memo.

of you cajoling a friend and subscribing to this podcast. Come on. Let us hear it out in the wild. Yes. On that note, huge thank you to our producer, Chantel Holder, engineer, Brendan Burns, and Marcus Holm for our theme music and sound design. Also, special thanks to our executive producers, Nora Ritchie at Stitcher and Brandon Sharp from Agenda Management and Production.

We want to hear from you as always. So don't forget, you can email us at vibecheckatstitcher.com and keep in touch with us on Instagram at at Zach Staff, at The Ferocity and at Sam Sanders. Use the hashtag vibecheckpod to be in the conversation. I love when people use it. I check it all the time. It's wonderful. All right. Well, stay tuned for another episode next week. Bye. Bye. Stitcher.

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That's definitely not a problem. Reese's, you did it. You stumped this charming devil.