Freedom, Cut Me Loose!
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My, my, my. Okay, first up this week, we've decided it's time, friends. It's time to do a vibe check of none other than Governor Gavin Newsom of California himself. Not the none other than. None other than. The one, the only, the shellacked.

Gavin Newsom. Wow. We're going to do a vibe check because, you know, there's a lot going on there. Good, bad in between and we're intrigued. And then we're going to switch it up and we're going to talk about, so it is, you know, fall, winter is almost upon us. And so the joke is always like, ooh, it's cuffing season. It's time to get into a serious relationship. But look, not in Hollywood, honey. No.

Not in Hollywood. All of Hollywood is saying, let's listen to Freedom by Beyonce. Freedom, freedom, cut me loose. They're all single. They're all getting divorced. They are melting the handcuffs down. Turn it into jewelry, baby. Turn it into jewelry. So I'm excited to talk about that. But before we get into those two conversations, my sisters, how are you feeling? Zach, how you doing, honey?

Saeed Jones, I am relieved. And I am relieved because our queen, Beyonce, Gisele Noles-Carter, has finally given us a date for her visuals, which is World AIDS Day, which is an ode to Uncle Johnny, which is amazing. I'm just beyond excited. I have my tickets for November 30th at 7.30 p.m. So I'm going the night before. I'm just beyond excited. I'm so, so happy about it. And I'm just glad.

you know, we're going to see these visuals finally after what has it been a year plus? What a journey we've been on. Yeah. Well, and also it's such an interesting week for Beyonce because she announces the tour video, you know, coming to theaters. Yeah.

But this is also the week where the North American tour is done for now. The last show happened. And it's like the numbers are kind of amazing. By some measures, Beyonce's American tour, just the American part, generated $4.5 billion in the American economy, which is as much as an Olympics would. Wow.

Oh, in the economy. So it's not just the show itself. I was just looking the other day, yesterday, there's a video of all the progress that Blue Ivy has made during the tour. Oh, I saw that. They showed a video of her dancing in that first show she came out on and then dancing again at this last show she came on and...

And it was really remarkable, the growth and the bravery that she showed to do this for months. When I first saw her on the stage, I was like, I don't know how to feel about this. Am I watching nepotism? Should I care? But by the end of this tour, I was just realizing Blue Ivy is a young girl who did a very brave thing.

And didn't do a very brave thing. She got better the whole time. So like, it's off to her. I saw a tweet that said it perfectly. They said Blue Ivy's progression in this tour is a reminder that you don't have to be perfect. You just have to begin. And that is exactly it. You just have to start and be committed to the work and try and try and try. And she did that. It's really great. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny to speak of her impact personally.

Not just Blue Ivy, but also her mama. The impact on the economy, because I got to see her last week in New Orleans. Yeah, how was it? Of course, it was incredible. But also, for me, what was such a huge... And I'm so grateful for my friend Adam, who was like, we're going, we're doing this. I had to move mountains to be able to go, but I'm so glad. But to see the phenomenon... So, for some examples...

In the city of New Orleans, I can't remember which radio station it was, but there was a radio station that played Beyonce music 24-7. Wow. I guess like that time period. Love it. And that was really fun. You know, she hits the stage around, I don't know, 9, 10 p.m., but around 2 p.m., if you were in the city limits of New Orleans...

At any point, if you turned around, you saw someone wearing silver somewhere. You know, it just, particularly in a city like New Orleans that loves to celebrate a holiday where people love to go all out. It felt akin to her creating a holiday.

And that is a different kind of impact. Because, you know, when we saw Beyonce in London, you know, maybe now and then you see a group of black women be like, oh, are you going to see her too? But to see when it's like, oh, the impact, particularly in a proudly black city that an artist like Beyonce has. Woo. That was powerful. Yeah. And like it all kind of changed when like halfway through the tour, she was like, I think y'all should wear silver. Something she did there turned it into...

fourth Sunday church service or a family reunion or like a themed cookout.

it like made the whole thing just i don't know how i say this but it's like extra black it did make an extra black and i love the jenna wortham essay in new york times magazine that came out this weekend that is the the piece that the new york times put out that helped us understand the economic impact i think it was jenna who first reported the 4.5 billion that you just mentioned but in it jenna's talked so eloquently about silver and beyonce's uses of silver and that material has the highest ability of being electrified out of all the

the other materials in the world. So it's amazing that she was using something that literally creates electricity to make us feel electric, that also feels like a disco ball, that feels like a crystal, all these things. It's really amazing. Yeah, there is something visually very powerful about seeing both the diversity of looks, the different ways you can bring a color and a style, but also, yeah, you look out and you're like, wow, we did something together.

It's fun. Yeah. It's great. It's fun. Yeah. Sam, my love, how are you doing? You know how the aunties and uncles will sometimes say casually or when asked how they're doing, oh, you know, with everything going on right now, with everything going on right now, I'm having an with everything going on right now week. Okay. It'd be like that. It'd be like that. And it's fine. I'll get through it. But I had one of those nights where I slept four hours and I was just up.

You know, just so, you know, you do the thing you do when you have stressful weeks like this, which is try to sleep some more, try to exercise some more, do things like this and talk to your friends. But yeah, getting through it. Is there like a song or movie or something you find yourself drawn to in moments of stress that brings you comfort?

I honestly just like to play the saxophone myself. I did not know that. You make your own music. Yeah. In undergrad, I was a music composition major and I've been playing the saxophone since I was 10 or 11 and was this close to trying to become a professional musician.

And I've always played, but during the pandemic, I picked it up again and I'm taking saxophone lessons again. And honestly, that's a stress reliever. So that's part of the work too. Anywho, my vibe is woo child, but still we rise. Saeed, what's your vibe this week? My vibe. So I'm back home. So much has happened since I last talked.

Talk to you both. You were traveling a lot, right? Yeah in a period of One full week I went from being in New York City to the Berkshires where I did a book festival Had a wonderful weekend up there in Lenox Massachusetts did like a two authors in conversation event in this case It was with my dear friend my best friend Isaac Fitzgerald And so we talked about being friends and artists writing memoirs and what we've learned from one another and that was really cool Then it was back to New York

And then I was in New York for like a day, flew to Cleveland, did a poetry reading of my book, Alive at the End of the World in Cleveland. And that was really great and moving. Shout out to Lisa and the folks at Max Stacks Bookstores. Shout out to, and I can't remember your name, but shout out to...

the black lesbian beloved woman who said, "Look, I didn't know your event was happening tonight. I found out about 20 minutes before we started. I was in my nightgown, my wife was in her nightgown. And I found out you were here and I'd already read your memoir a little while back." And she said, "I jumped up and I left." And she said, "I had to leave my wife. She wasn't getting dressed fast enough." So she was like, "Can you sign this book for me and this book for my wife who I had to abandon?" I was like, "Oh my gosh." It was so cool. - The fandom.

- Yeah, and then I went to New Orleans to see Beyonce and then left the next morning. So literally like Beyonce was still singing at one o'clock in the morning. - Wow. - But at 5:30 in the morning, I was up and headed back to the airport to get back to Cleveland. - I saw you posted, I think a photo at 7:00 AM local time.

- Ooh, baby. - Of a selfie from the plane of you smiling. And I thought only Beyonce could have Saeed Jones smiling after no sleep and getting on a plane. - What a journey, what a journey. So then I got back to Cleveland. My book won the Anisfield-Wolfe Award for Poetry, which is a huge honor.

Thank you. Thank you. It is the only juried award for books in America that focus on racism and diversity. It's over 100 years old. So they kind of contextualize that and they're just like Zora Neale Hurston, Langston Hughes,

Nikki Giovanni, Alice Walker, Maxine Pong Kingston, you know, Jericho Brown, and then they're like, "And now it's time for our first award, poetry, Saeed Jones!" And you're like, "Wait." Wow. You know, just to be in that canon was really cool and just beautiful.

I'm back home now. I am a little tired, but I'm also trying to... I don't know if you've had an experience in your life where a lot of really cool things have happened in rapid succession, and you almost feel a private pain

Because you're like, was I able to take it in? Was I able to be there and to really absorb? So I've just been home just trying to think. Yeah, it takes time. And also this switch from summer to fall, that requires a certain amount of resetting as well. It was a lot, but I'm so happy to be back with y'all.

Well, I'm glad that you're here. And do you get some rest now? Is there going to be more travel coming up or do you get to go home? In theory, I think I'm coming to see y'all in LA for something. You're coming next week. Oh my God, you are. We can announce now. Listeners, you can pay to get tickets to go to this. Next Thursday, Bloomberg is having a two-day conference on the future of media and entertainment. It's called Screen Time.

And Vibe Check will be doing a live taping of the podcast, not this Thursday, but the next Thursday, which is October the 12th.

It's early in the morning, 8 or 9, I think. But if you want to come, just Google Bloomberg Screen Time. Find that conference. You can see us there. Other folks like Issa Rae will be in attendance as well. Ooh. All right. We have one more announcement. And this one's going to be really fun for all of our listeners. Drumroll, drumroll, drumroll. We are about to embark on the first ever Vibe Check Book Club. I'm so excited. Pew, pew, pew.

We need sound effects. We really do. Zach and I are just like, we're very excited. Listeners, we are going to read a book that is fundamental and required reading for our current moment. It is called Poverty by America by Matthew Desmond. Saeed, you can do it better than I can. Describe this book for our listeners.

Well, one of the reasons we're excited to talk about this book is because it's organically come up in conversation between the three of us anyway, and also throughout the podcast. If you've been listening closely, we've referenced it, especially I think like in the spring when we started reading it. But basically, it's all in the title, Poverty by America. Essentially, his argument is that poverty doesn't just happen. I think generally,

We are kind of led to believe by quote-unquote common sense or quote-unquote economics to think of poverty as just misfortune. Some people just have bad luck and they just, we're just lucky not to have their circumstances is how we're led to believe. And that things just kind of pile on people who have the circumstances and things get worse and worse. And he says, no, poverty, like wealth, like power, is constructed, reinforced. And so poverty is built on.

by America. That's what the title is urging us toward. And it's a very concise book. It's very tight, which we love. You can read it pretty quickly, actually. I really like, because he makes a very strong case, a lot of vivid, tangible examples, whether it's from

housing from the way food benefits, childcare, the history of the welfare state, the way in which wealthy people actually benefit from welfare, but we don't think of it that way. But when poor people want to use those benefits, there's shame attached. So it's just very relevant to, I think, so many things that the three of us, but also so many of you care about. Yeah. And it's...

It is a read about what is a depressing topic, but it's written so well and it flies by so quickly. You don't want to put it down. I'm really enjoying the book. You're shook. You're shook. It's one of those books where I had to get two different color highlighters. And this is pretty rare. But it was just because I was ending up highlighting the entire page.

And then I was like, well, now I won't know what's the point of this. What was I trying to underscore for myself? And listeners, so we want you to read this book, not just because the three of us are going to talk about it together with y'all on the show and take your questions, but

We also want you to read this book because once we're all done reading it, we're going to have Matthew Desmond come on the show and answer your questions as well. We'll have the author of the book talking about this book that we're all going to read. So take October, read Poverty by America, and very soon we'll all be in conversation with the author about it.

Yep. The Pulitzer Prize winning author for his prior book, Evicted. So, you know, he's a very, very smart guy. I'm very excited to have him on as our first book club guest. Yeah. And I believe he also won the MacArthur Genius Grant. So this is his first book.

you know, from that huge honor. And I always think that's exciting because I'm like, ooh, wow. Okay, so you didn't have to worry about paying your bills. You didn't have to worry about pleasing gatekeepers. You got to write the book you wanted to write. So I'm excited to talk to him about that. Same. It's going to be great. All right, listeners, before we get into this episode, we want to thank all of you who have sent us fan mail and reached out to us on social media. We absolutely love reading your messages. Keep them coming at vibecheckatstitcher.com. All right, with that, y'all, shall we jump in to today's episode?

Let's get into it. All right. To start, we are going to check the vibe this segment on California Governor Gavin Newsom and talk about how all the things he's up to right now can tell us a lot about how race and age work in our politics right now. I will explain. But first, top line question for both of you. Really quick. Keep it quick. Before we talk more about Gavin, what is your quick one sentence take on him?

Go, rapid fire. Okay, my one sentence take would be the liberal Trump is on the rise. Liberal Trump? The liberal Trump is on the rise. Okay, Saeed? I would say the enemy of my enemy is a Democratic standout. Okay, so we see here no ringing endorsements. No ringing endorsements of Gavin Newsom. Because I think the gist is...

He's influential. He's one to watch. He's making moves. Sometimes he really impresses me with the decisions and actions he makes. And we're going to talk about some of that. But I don't know if I feel safe with him. That's why I was saying that. I hear that. I hear that. So let's talk a little bit about what's going on with Gavin right now. So to start...

Gavin Newsom is not running for president, and he said so several times, but he's been getting headlines for the last year plus that make it seem like he is. He has been in this ongoing battle with Florida Governor Ron DeSantis and is set to debate DeSantis on Fox News next month. This comes after he also ran a political ad in Florida last year. Oh, I forgot about that. Remember that ad? It was really weird. He recently got involved in negotiations over the now-ended writer's strike.

And many weeks, it seems like he is out there on the talk shows talking policy and politics even more than Kamala Harris. Gavin is the most running for president, not candidate to ever exist. He's not running, but it feels like he's running. I want to talk about that and what it says about the age bottleneck at the top of the Democratic Party right now. But before we go there, we've got to talk about Gavin's latest bit of news. Gavin.

Just last week, and we all saw this, California Democratic Senator Dianne Feinstein passed away after being in failing health for months. And Gavin Newsom, as governor of California, had the job of replacing that seat should it become vacant. He said for over two years now that he would fill that seat with a black woman.

And a few days ago, he did just that. Newsom appointed LaFonza Butler to the seat. She's currently the president of EMILY's List. She was a labor leader before that. She advised Kamala during her 2020 run for the presidency. And she'll be the first out lesbian senator from the state of California. It's a big deal. Love that. Now, this appointment just lasts until the next election next November. But it is a big deal. But I got to say here, and this is what I want to start talking about first, is...

I want to know why this makes me feel kind of weird and dare I say, kind of icky. I am really excited that a black woman, that a lesbian is getting this job. I'm sure Gavin Newsom is excited that he gets to do this thing and perform allyship. But the politics of it all feels like to me as if black woman, this is being used as this political bargaining chip and it feels off. So I want to ask y'all first in this Gavin chat, um,

how should i feel about this i mean i think your feelings of it feeling off are correct because just you know on the surface it is really off how black women are being used in this political calculus so if you just take it by face value the three democrats in california that are vying for the senate seat that are currently running for it are barbara lee who's a black woman about 77 and she's a beloved woman of california and people thought she's the obvious black woman pick

under Newsom. But she's running and Newsom said, I don't want to pick someone that's currently running. So she was put on the back burner. After her is Katie Porter, who's very popular in Congress with her little whiteboards and everything. And then there's the iconic, sadly iconic Adam Schiff, who Nancy Pelosi is obsessed with. Is he iconic?

He's been around forever. I don't think I've ever heard the word iconic this last year. We're like, gay fact check? Anyway, go. It's your part, baby. But, you know, Katie Porter and Adam Schiff are leading the polls. Barbara Lee's third. So LaFonza's addition to this political calculus kind of knocks them out and now makes these two white people lead so that the next, when the elections happen, they're not going to be able to be in the Senate anymore. Because LaFonza doesn't, she's allegedly not running.

So it's kind of like she's gone and now Barbara Lee has been knocked down more because she's in office. So now we just have these two people. So I'm like, what is going on? Why are Black people being used as pawns in this larger chess game within Congress right now? Zai, how do you feel about it? Well, okay. So one, LaFonza Butler, she's a graduate of an HBCU. I believe she went to Jackson State.

her work in labor when labor and the labor movement is so important. She also briefly worked with Uber, which kind of maybe complicates that. You know, I'm just going to throw that in there. How does everyone briefly work for Uber? Yeah, which is, I feel like that's a whole other conversation. That's a whole other conversation. Yeah, she was at Uber for a year. But then, you know, Emily's list...

an organization that works to get more women into politics, clearly a strong focus on reproductive justice, again, at a time that it's being assailed, shamed,

She is new to me. I will say it's, I can't pretend that she's someone I've been following, you know, for years and years, but as I've been learning more about her, wow, what a moment to have her brought into this room of power, the U S Senate really incredible. And I think, you know, her values resonate with the moment and with so many of us. And when we think about so much of our frustrations with particularly the Senate and

Right. Like like we haven't had a black woman in the U.S. Senate since Kamala became the VP. And she, you know, she shows up, I guess, technically to break ties. But even just that and then to have an out lesbian from the state of California. Incredible. That said, I think these pledges, you know, Biden pledging to appoint a black woman to the Supreme Court. He did. And again, she's incredible. Kamala Harris, you know, pledging that his VP would be a black woman. These three women pledging.

are lions of politics. They are lions of public service. It is frustrating that these pledges, though, make their career trajectories about the white men. That's what feels complicated to me. And it feels like the white men that make these pledges, they get bonus points for doing that with their base.

You know, Democrats will be like, oh, good for you, Joe Biden. Good for you, Gavin Newsom. But, you know, a black woman who walks into this kind of job after that kind of pledge is.

I am guessing she'll face a lot of people second-guessing her, looking at her sideways, and have to spend years proving that she was worth being there besides just the pledge. And I've been thinking about how this feels different than affirmative action to me. You know, when affirmative action happens in a workplace on a college campus...

Usually there's more than one black or brown person there and no one's ever saying, why directly know that affirmative action got you here? It is this...

unquestioned mostly kind of thing where you know it exists, but you don't get dependent on any one person. This feels like the most public and specific affirmative action that just puts a lot of expectation and burden on the recipient. And I keep wondering with all of this, could Joe Biden and Gavin Newsom just not made the pledge, but just done the work?

You could have just appointed a black woman and not been banging your chest over it for so long.

Because again, the moment you learn about LaFonza Butler's career background, her values, her values, you're like, oh, it would be fucking awesome to have her in the Senate. Because the thing is, those pledges, I don't know, maybe this is short-sighted. Maybe when we take the long view and we're like, 20 years from now, baby, we won't give a fuck. We got a black woman on the Supreme Court. Who cares how she got there? Maybe that's how we will feel.

But I guess I'm trying to say for him, this was a very savvy choice, particularly the fact that he just vetoed a very popular bill that would provide unemployment for striking employees, which I think understandably has outraged so many people in the state of California. Yeah.

It doesn't feel coincidental. He was like, oh, perfect time to announce this. So it's, you know, he's playing politics, which is what it is. I don't know. Sometimes I do go back and forth. I'm like, Saeed, do you want to win or do you want to feel nice? Do you want to be assuaged at all times? Yeah. I wonder if LaFonza is just like, I got this job and I'm doing it. Like, I don't want to put words in these women's mouths either. Like,

Like this might just be the way it works out and you do your job and you rise, but it feels weird and it feels like it's actually distracting from the fact that the people still really, really in charge of the Democratic Party are.

older white men, you know, and just to pivot for the next angle of Gavin, you know, Gavin Newsom was thought by many to have supposed to run for president already. He can't, and he's not this cycle because Joe Biden is running again to be the oldest president in history. What's his gambit? Because yeah, it does feel that he's living in

a different reality. You know, he's living in a reality in which, I mean, talk about another pledge. Didn't Biden say initially he was only going to run for one term? I think he kind of alluded to that. Yeah, he did. But I think what you're seeing with Gavin Newsom is that I think the Republican Party during Trump

has let go of the old ways of thinking, which is very dynasty driven. You know, the Bushes, you know, Reagan associated people, all that. They're all about like who has political clout and legacy. And they've moved away. And now we have this whole crop of people who have no legacy and are chaotic and are building power. The Democrats have been obsessed with legacy. I mean, you look at 2016 and Obama, uh,

rose out of nowhere became super powerful but never had an error under him he didn't pick someone in the senate in government to really elevate so hillary clinton was the defunct pick and then that didn't play out how people wanted it to and joe biden also falls into this legacy and i think newsom sees that legacy and politics doesn't really work people want someone young fresh different outside the box

And he's trying to become the obvious heir to the Democratic Party when it realizes it can't act like it used to. It's to your point, Saeed. It's like, do I want to win or do I want to feel good? And Democrats have been so much about like, I want to feel good. I think Gavin Newsom's thinking, I want to win and I'm going to deploy the same political apparatus that Trump did. And that's why he's on Fox News all the time. That's why he's going to Florida. And he's just trying to garner power that way in a way that Democrats don't typically do. And it's going to work for him. I think he will become president one day.

I want to talk about what Gavin and what he's doing right now says about age. You look at Gavin Newsom, a really charismatic, attractive politician who people know and is rising the ranks. And you compare him to Joe Biden, who is much older and whom, when polled, most of his own constituency and his party base says maybe he shouldn't run.

What does Gavin not being able to actually run this cycle say about the way our politics are treating age right now? You know, you see Joe Biden running again. You saw what happened to Dianne Feinstein. You saw what happened to Mitch McConnell. Like you've seen this layer of elderly leadership at the top of our politics. It's not moving.

Yeah, I mean, I'm like, where's the mentorship? Where's the sense of really thinking in real time, not just about appointing your chosen next person,

successor. Yes, that's important and practical. I think Nancy Pelosi seemed in the House, I think, to be thinking about that a little bit more, but more broadly, like the new generation. And I want to be clear, it's interesting, Zach, your point about the Republican Party. It's an interesting model because, yeah, they have a shooed legacy and everything. They're like, you could be a TikToker or you could be a total... But that's how you get Marjorie Taylor Greene, right? So we don't want to romanticize necessarily this other model, but

yeah, I think LaFonza Butler is an indication of like, look, there are clearly so many capable people out there. By the way, she also worked, I believe, on Kamala Harris's 2020. She did. So she's not totally out of left field, you know, so to speak, but

But yeah, I think it's just the Democrats are ultimately fighting with one hand tied behind their back. And what's tying it behind their back is a commitment to legacy, a commitment to waiting your turn, pay your dues in this very specific way. And I wonder a lot how much this commitment to legacy is also...

just one of the effects of the way that we do our politics. You know, a lot of other developed nations do a better job of publicly funding their campaigns for office, which means that people, young, old, rich, or poor, can run kind of on an equal footing, much more so than they can in America. And so because America relies so much on money to make campaigns go around, the politicians who have the most money are the oldest because they've had the longest time to either build their wealth or build their connections to wealth.

So the money of it all is also helping compound this age problem because as old as he is, Joe Biden's probably the most successful fundraiser the Democrats have because he's been doing it forever.

Right, right. And EMILY's List is one of the most successful fundraising groups in America for Democrats. So there is a consolidation on power and money. And LaFond's, I think, may be an example of like, maybe the Democrats thinking outside legacy, but looking to money and thinking of new ways to garner power. But we will see. But Gavin Newsom has a plan. I think that's like the TLDR today. There's a plan. We're seeing it happen. And I do want to say, even setting aside age, and that is really important, but like,

the fact that we have this idea, this conception in our minds that if things were a little differently, we're like, well, obviously Gavin Newsom would be, well, even that's in construction. The only reason he's like the person where we go, well, obviously it would be him is because he's wealthy enough and he's a governor and with a certain, you know what I mean? And connected. And he's been in politics.

He's a part of the machine, too. You know what I mean? So it's interesting that the machine doesn't even do well by its own cogs, so to speak. Yeah. All this to say, everything Gavin is dealing with is like this wonderful way into all of the weird issues facing not just Democrats, but all politics right now. That said, before we close this segment, as promised, we're going to give a vibe check on Gavin. Post this discussion, what's y'all's vibe check on Gavin?

My vibe check on Gavin Newsom is I think Commander would bite him. Joe Biden's dog. Joe Biden's dog. Joe Biden's dog. Commander would bite Gavin Newsom. And that's the that on that, honey. Wow. Yes, I agree. Dogs be knowing. Dogs know. And I think he's a bit slippery. He's a bit. He's very handsome. Slippery. Slippery. All I'll say is whenever I see Gavin Newsom, he gives me big boiler room energy. Remember that film from like 2000?

It's all about these like really intense stock bros, like finance bros. He gives big Wall Street energy. Yeah. Anywho, Gavin, we're watching. That's all. Listeners, if you have thoughts on Gavin Newsom as well, or what's going on with the way age and race plays out in our politics right now, shoot us a line. Vibecheck at Stitcher.com. Vibecheck at Stitcher.com.

Yeah, and I especially would love to hear from people in the state of California. You know, because I remember, like, when I was living in San Francisco, I think he was the mayor of San Francisco at one. People have thoughts. And he's such a constant now in California. Californians have been watching Gavin Newsom for so long. Read us in. Read us in. Okay. We'll be right back. We'll be right back.

This message is brought to you by McDonald's. Did you know only 7.3% of American fashion designers are Black? Well, McDonald's 2024 Change Leaders Program is ready to change the face of fashion. The innovative program awards a monetary grant to five emerging Black American designers and pairs each with an industry professional to help them elevate their brands.

I know specifically and distinctly how McDonald's can support and empower not just black Gen Z, but black people.

My first job was McDonald's. I learned a lot there about customer service and how to relate to people. I still love that place and go there very often. Look out for the change of fashion designers and mentors at events like the BET Awards and the Essence Festival of Culture. And follow the journey of the 2024 McDonald's change leaders on their Instagram page, We Are Golden.

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We are back, and even though cuffing season is upon us, uh-uh. A lot of us are saying, Ariana Grande, it's time to break free. Celebrities are getting divorced. They're breaking up. They're separating. It's a mess out there. And I just thought I would play a short list of the hits.

And I want to tell you, I went into this list with a few names in mind, assuming that, of course, I'd see some surprises, and then was fully gagged, actually, to see how extensive this list is. This is just a short list of the number of celebrities that have divorced or broken up this year alone, and this year isn't over. As of just the other day, Jodi Turner-Smith and Joshua Jackson...

Tiana Taylor and Iman Shumpert, Hugh Jackman and Debra Lee Furness, Joe Jonas and Sophie Turner, who's been adopted by Taylor Swift, as we all know. Tina Knowles and Richard Lawson. I forgot about Miss Tina. Miss Tina, she's out here free. Another couple, America and Democracy. I was just paying attention, seeing if y'all were still listening. That was just a test. Sophia Vergara.

Sofia Vergara and Joe Manganiello, Ariana Grande and Dalton Gomez. Honestly, I didn't even know they were together. It was so secret. It was very confusing. Ricky Martin and Juan Yosef, big news for the gays. Billy Porter and Adam Smith, big news for the thays. And then Britney Spears. Saeed. That was funny. That was comedy. Leave it in, Chantel. Go on. And then one more.

One more, Britney Spears and that asshole, Sam Ashgari. Again, that was just a short list. Not all Sams are assholes. Not all Sams? Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. So, wow. I have some theories, but first of all, how do y'all feel about all these breakups? Did any of these breakups...

Hit y'all hard. Did you gasp? No, you saw the news not even Jody and Joshua because I'm here to tell I'm gonna fact check you Zack You were shook. Yes. That's what I say. Okay was as an elder millennial who lived in DC in his late 20s Which means I wore that J. Crew gingham shirt Everybody wore for several years. I thought because

Joshua Jackson and Jody Turner were doing a J.Crew campaign together that they would never come. That has to be for life. That must be for life. J.Crew is for life. So that one really shocked me. They were a very beautiful couple. The ads were really cute. Also, Joshua Jackson. I forget how I met him, but I met him once and how he talked about Jody Turner was with such complete admiration. Like he like, you know, sometimes like there are mixed couples where it's like,

this white man has not done the work. He is not really deserving of this person. But he was just so adoring of her and treated her like the ground that she walked on was gold. And I thought that he would just, they would be together forever. You know, they had a kid. It was very highly publicized. So that was the one I was like,

really shocked with because she's also at Paris Fashion Week acting like she's not getting a divorce which has been the most shocked this year is that all these people are divorced but yet like Tina Knowles is at a Beyonce concert not sweating about it you know Sofia Vergara's out here at events not sweating about her divorce like people are really public and not really mad about getting their hearts broken which feels like a quiet statement on the relationship itself right they're not like in hiding necessarily Sam what about you you know I

I see all these divorce headlines and I keep asking myself, is this an off year for celebrity divorce and divorce? Or is this just par for the course? You know, the stats remain the same. About half of all marriages end in divorce. And when you dig into the stats, it's even funnier. Every progressive marriage after your first has a higher likelihood of divorce. Third marriages have a 73% chance of divorce. Awesome.

- Really? - Yeah. - Geez. - Yeah, so part of me is like, is this just the way it works? Or I'm like, is something in the air? I think there are a few things going on, as I've alluded to on this show before. Celebrities are really shook. - Yeah. - Going through three years of deep pandemic. I know we're still in it, but like three years of deep pandemic. And then thinking you're back and having to go into a strike where actors still aren't acting.

I think their sense of self, which is often driven by their exposure and attention, has been warped. And it's probably changed the way they see everything, right? That's related to my theory too. Yeah. The second thing that I keep thinking about is like, we have reached peak influencer moment. We have reached peak celebrity sharing their whole lives moment. So we expect more than ever before for anybody famous, right?

to actually tell us about their marriage and talk about it a lot and say how much they're in love and go on a podcast and say how they make it work. And so when they get divorced, we just notice more, right? So that's what I'm thinking about right now. Yeah.

Yeah. I think that's so spot on about the visibility and the transition from, you know, the 90s where it was paparazzi chase celebrities because they were so private. That's why paparazzi fueled because they weren't wanting to talk about it. And now paparazzi can't make money because the celebrities do it themselves. That's why they're sitting out in front of Carbone or all those other Italian restaurants in New York that Taylor Swift keeps taking heartbroken women to. So it's like that's the only place they can make a dollar these days. But outside of that... Not you literally making me choke. Yeah.

- Taylor Swift's Lonely Hearts Club. - Her Lonely Hearts Club through Italian Foods in downtown New York City. But beyond that, I just wanna like,

like call out the amazingness that is Channing Nichols, who predicted earlier this year when Venus went to retrograde for a long time that we were going to see a ton of people breaking up. And if you don't follow Channing on TikTok or use her app, she did a lot of weekly readings that was like, hey girl, how's your heart? What's going on? Because I'm sure it's under a lot of turmoil. And yeah, I would say personally and professionally, I've seen more relationships challenged this year than ever before.

But we're also hitting an age. We're all in our 30s. Entering 40s. This is when you have partners. So it also makes sense that we're all going through a lot right now. First of all, shout out to Chani because I'm all up and through that app. It's also because it's very well written. Chani's a very good writer. And so I enjoy that. But to Sam's point, yeah, I think to celebrities being shook...

Because to me, you know, we talk a lot about how, what is it they say for like, for a successful business, like retail is like location, location, location. Relationships are like kind of proximity, proximity, proximity. You tend to form intense bonds with people that you see a lot. However, that bond might manifest, you know, could be different. And so I think celebrities in Hollywood, particularly obviously the actors, it's like, look, they just went through lockdown, something we all went through, obviously. But then they kind of went through lockdown

Something that's actually pretty unique, right? Because not many Americans are members of SAG, for example. So for them being on strike, I think it impacted them because—I'm not naming names, but I noticed during lockdown, a lot of writers who travel a great deal normally for their work, when lockdown happened and then they were home consistently with their partners, there was no in-between. Oh, yeah.

Either they came out the other side of that experience stronger and more clarified in their love, or they were like, yeah, so I've been having some meetings with divorce attorneys. And I wonder if actors, you know, they're just like, I've been home. I haven't been getting the adoration and attention that I'm used to. I'm realizing that

you actually suck as a father. What do you mean you've been doing that? You know what I mean? Like, I just think there are a lot of me, what do you mean you've been doing this kind of experience for celebrities over the course of the last few months? And so, yeah, they're making some decisions.

I will say, you know, I always take celebrities and what they do seriously because in many ways they give us the scripts for how to live our lives. And so I do want to ask both of you, you know, watching these celebrity divorces play out, some messy, some nice. How is that writing or editing the script that we all use in our own breakups as like not famous people? I think it does give cues, you know, like how many people have like,

shaped their breakups on Taylor Swift lyrics, right? Like this stuff actually affects us. What, and we're seeing with these famous divorces will like rub off on the rest of us, you think?

Oh, what will rub off? I think, you know what I think Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey are showing us within the world of celebrity because I don't think you know, everyday folks go through this. But I think celebrities go through this and it's what's how you just had proximity is that don't shit where you eat kind of thing like stop working within your industry with people that you're also competing against and that your whole lives start to fuse together. And then you also have to compare yourselves with them because I think a lot of these celebs due to the lockdown due to the strikes,

you know, we're having existential crises about their careers and then they're having a partner that is also their competition in many ways and that they also see as either helping or hurting them depending on where their career is going. So I do think people like Taylor Swift are looking to other industries like

athletics to have a partner it's like listen we can come together and not talk about there you go what i went through today so i think that's what we're going to see is people being individuals in the relationships and not you know sharing an identity is kind of what i'm taking from these celebrities is be yourself and find someone that just loves yourself and they can be themselves and it doesn't have to be this melding together of two people yeah say what do you think

I mean, I guess, look, and obviously this is informed by the fact that I went through a breakup earlier this year. So what I am projecting onto or extrapolating from celebrity breakups and everything like that is all mixed up and mingled up. But I do think this is sincere. I don't think this is me just trying to do spin. When I find out that a celebrity couple is getting a divorce, my first reaction is not that they failed.

I don't assume a breakup unless someone tells me, unless someone says, damn, you know, we tried really hard and I'm, you know, unless someone tells me that I don't assume it's about failure more times than not. My sense is someone learned the truth about themselves and they said, you know what? I need to go to a higher altitude and I don't think you can breathe in this kind of oxygen level. Someone just learned the truth. And so they'll go, you know, they'll be okay. It's not that it's easy. Yeah.

You know, and that's why to me, seeing Tina Knowles just like not skip a beat. She was like, she was like in Houston seemingly days later. You know, I'm like, of course. And Jodie Turner Smith, you know, she went to her one true love anyway, fashion. That's why she had Paris fashion. Yeah. I will say, you know, whenever I see these divorces and then see the rates of divorce, I'm really of two minds. I,

I love weddings. I've officiated several. I love my friends who are married and in healthy relationships. But given the odds, I would not be surprised if most of America said, why would I ever get married? You know, given the odds, people keep doing it. And I'm kind of like, huh, this is interesting to me. Well, marriage, it is on the decline, according to lots of research. Less and less people are getting married. And, you know, part of me thinks, to your point, they're thinking, why?

why I feel like our generation I'm the child of divorce a lot of my friends are children divorce sucks it sucks and it was really prevalent it's become so prevalent I think a lot of us in our generation are like let's take a beat maybe I don't need to be married by 24 to this man where the sex is great

but like everything else isn't fitting. Like maybe I should just wait till I'm 35 to figure this out. But the other thing is, I think people are just waiting longer too. They're like, yo, I'd like to be in like Sophie Turner, for example, she's 27. She should be single. Girl, leave that man. Get a babysitter for those kids. Go be beautiful and run around the streets. So I think that's also happening. So I think,

We're seeing the script in which so many people live their lives through love is rapidly shifting in this new age. And we're not feeling this need to like get married and have kids because who can afford the house to have them in? So. Also, one more thing. And all these divorce statements, the ones that have kids, they'll be like,

And we're going to beautifully and healthily co-parent our kids. Don't brag about that, that's your job. You're supposed to take care of your kids. - 1000%. - You're supposed to take care of your kids. - The only ones that I'm like, holy shit, why are you doing this? Are people like Anderson Cooper and his ex-partner. I think they still live together and they're co-parenting together. That's not my ministry. I will never do that. That's insane. - Yeah, I guess, well, two things. One, I've realized there's some words that I'll just never believe.

And most, like 90% of the way that they're used, I just don't believe. One of them is humble. When someone refers to themselves as humble, you just don't know. You would never say that. It's like when folks say, I don't do drama. That means they do. That's the person. It's like, look out. So when people are like, oh, we're breaking up, was it amicably? It ain't. Amicable, I'll know. I've yet to see amicable out here in these streets. And then the second thing is, frankly, I think...

one because of divorce but also just as we learn how like life really unfolds and i love you were talking about like mixed families and and parenting and stuff i think if if there's anything that we have to learn from these high profile breakups it's like how to make it work you know different models for family structures and parenting and you know i think that's really interesting but um it's real out here and i would rather see people happy than see them unhappy together

So a thousand percent. Yeah. Okay. We're going to leave it there for now. I also asked this on Twitter and the answer almost astoundingly, because I was like, what are some of y'all's favorite celebrity divorces? And without fail, it was like any woman who managed to get away from Tom Cruise. We celebrate. Yes. We celebrate. You are trailblazers. Nicole Kidman and Katie Holmes. But the iconic one is Janet Jackson divorcing her husband the day that the prenup

said that she took like a billion right you took a bunch of money she was like you have served your purpose thank you thank you i'm gonna be rich now too yeah sure all right so we're gonna take a quick break but don't go anywhere we'll be right back we're not separating we're not divorcing it's just wow wow

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We are back. And before we end the show, we'd each like to share something that's helping us keep our vibes right this week. And to get us going, I'm going to look to Sam Sanders to hear what's giving him life right now. My recommendation this week, and I'm surprised to even hear myself saying this, the latest season of The Bachelor, The Golden Bachelor, in which the Bachelor contestant is like in his 70s or 70 or older. Yeah.

It's great. It's really, really good. He's very handsome. But beyond this, because I want to go more into this, Sam Sanders, you really like dating shows. You love Love is Fine. Which is funny. I'm just not realizing that you watch a lot of dating shows. I sure do. But yeah, so tell me more about the show. Are they all 77? Like what's happening? So here's the thing. This is the most wholesome version of The Bachelor I've ever seen. You know how it usually goes with The Bachelor. They're young. They're hot.

They're kind of dumb, they're drunk, and they're playing games. Girls getting their heart broken, and they're like crying into their champagne. And it's manipulative, and it's messy, and it's nasty. I don't want to watch anybody's grandma get her heart broken. But here's why it's different, Saeed. Everyone here is kind of on the level and actually there for the right reasons. So the first ten minutes of the show is you hearing the Golden Bachelor story. He was faithfully married to his wife for decades.

They retired, bought their dream house, and a day or two or three before they're supposed to move into the dream house, she had a really bad bacterial infection, and then she died just as they were going to move into their retirement home. Then the opening montage goes to the Golden Bachelor and his adult children...

counseling him and encouraging him to get back out there and find love. It's so wholesome and so pure. And the first way in which we meet this bachelor is him telling us how much he's a good guy who just really believes in love and has shown that to be his case, right? Then I'm pleasantly surprised that the women contestants on this show, they're of an appropriate age. They're in their 60s and their 70s, a lot of them. They've gone through heartbreak. They've gone through loss. And they're very candid about what they've dealt with. And

And then you get all these women in, you know, the places where they wait during The Bachelor to like drink and talk amongst themselves. It's usually really catty between all the contestants.

these women had a dance party together with the golden bachelor and it was so communal and fun and wholesome and i just can't overstate the good vibes coming out of this show in which the franchise forever has been bad vibes but it's a wonderful surprise and it warmed my heart so the golden bachelor really sweet thank you has anyone gone home yet have any of the women i gotta catch up on the latest episode the first i mean this does sound real now i'm kind of like i want i want to

- I want everyone to get their rose or whatever. - It's really sweet. Well, and you know, just to tie to this divorce conversation, you know,

No matter what you deal with, marriage, divorce, separation, etc. You're never too old to find love that works for you. And this show is a reminder of that. I'm telling you, man, they got me. They got me. The Golden Bachelor. I'm watching tonight. That was a really good. But that was good. Ooh. Okay. You know, ABC holla. Lord. Saeed, what's helping you keep your vibes right this week? Yeah. So I thought I would read another poem that's been on my mind.

You know, I was traveling a lot, doing a lot of reading events and in conversation. And Marie Howe, she's a legend. She's a legend. And she's someone I've gotten to meet her a bit, but I would say it's more fair to say I'm a student of her on the page just from studying her work and the decisions she makes line by line. But in the last week, she's just been...

on my mind a lot. And so I've just decided to share this poem that was published in the May 2023 issue of Poetry Magazine, a wonderful, iconic literary magazine. And as I read it, you will understand why it resonated with me. The title is Postscript by Marie Howe. What we did to the earth, we did to our daughters, one after the other.

What we did to the trees, we did to our elders, stacked in their wheelchairs by the lunchroom door. What we did to our daughters, we did to our sons, calling out for their mothers. What we did to the trees, what we did to the earth, we did to our sons, to our daughters. What we did to the cow, to the pig, to the lamb, we did to the earth, butchered and milked it.

Few of us knew what the bird calls meant or what the fires were saying. We took of earth and took and took. And the earth seemed not to mind until one of our daughters shouted, it was right in front of you, right in front of your eyes. And you didn't see. The air turned red. The ocean grew teeth.

- The Oshie routine. - Wow. - Oh, gosh. - I love that. - There's so much going on. So obviously, you know, I'm interested in writing about calamity and all of that. I mean, it's an incredible poem, but what I want to point out on the craft level is the poem has such a rhythm, right? It's almost soothing. What we did to the, what we did to the, what we did. You know, it's almost hypnotic and you're pulled into it, but the themes, the idea of the poem is in such conflict with that.

And it's almost like this should not be rhythmic. It should not be hypnotic and soothing. And so it's just interesting. I've been thinking about like the way pleasures and rhythm work to sedate us, work to get us to be assuaged by circumstances that we should not find comforting. And so I just love that in this horrific process,

poem. I mean, what we did to our daughters, I mean, that's just a very scary idea on its own. She's making it seductive, and we need to live in tension. We need to push back. And so I just, I love, I mean, one, it's a beautiful poem, it's a smart poem, but I love a poem where there's work being asked of us. And so the work that Marie Howe is asking us to do as readers is also the work we need to do as people, and I love that.

I love all of it. I also just, I love it when Syed reads poems. I just always do. I enjoy it. I think it's going to be my new, you know, I'll pop in and out with like normal recommendations, but when a poem's on my heart, I'm going to, I'm going to share it with you. Do it. Zach, what's your rec?

Sorry, I'm just like basking in that poem. It's so good. Oh, my rec is also a dating show, Sam, in the vein of you. And I didn't even know you were picking a dating show. So mine is actually a show that I've watched for a long time secretly. And now the shame has been washed away and I can talk about it. And that show is called Naked Attraction. I know you. It's on Max. What is Naked Attraction? What happens here? Oh.

Wait, what happens on this show? I think I know, but tell me. You nasty. Wait, hold on. We're not going to nudity shame. We're not going to nudity shame. So, Naked Attraction is on Max, which was the surprise of the century because this show, you could only use to watch it on Pornhub.com.

Oh, so it's like full frontal, not even blurred out. Oh yeah. But anyway, the show is British and the show has this amazing host who is clothed the whole time, but each episode there are two contestants and there's two rounds and each contestant gets six people in boxes that as they're going through questions of love with these people, the boxes raise and they reveal them fully naked. And at the end you see the face. The look on Sam's face. Wait, wait.

And you wonder why the divorce rate is so high. Y'all nasty. Ooh.

And Sam, you need to just watch an episode. Do I need to watch an episode? Do I need to watch an episode? It is blowing up because there's so many. There's a backlog. And they put like six seasons on Max out of no warning. We need to heal. We need to heal. And people in America are pissed because it's Max. Their kids just log on. And they're like, what's the show on the front page? And they click it. And these people, not only are they naked the whole time, the camera sits. And it's not blurred. It's not blurred.

- It's not blurred. - It's not blurred. - Do you ever see their faces? - You see them at the end. - At the very end. - But like literally for 15 minutes, you're just seeing someone's genitals. - That's a lot. - The endo face. - I wanna ask you to describe your experience watching it. How do you feel when you watch this show? Seriously. - I think it's not very sexy. It's not like a pornographic experience for me. That's other content that I would watch if I wanted that. This is more of a practice harkening back to my conversation with Jenna Wertham about being on a naked beach.

It normalizes bodies in this way. And to hear these people talk about each other's bodies in these really body positive ways. They're not being critical. They're not giving notes. They're not saying you should lose weight or that that looks weird. They're all giving, you know, mostly positive. Do they have different types of bodies? So many different types of bodies. And it's also interesting because I think it's a really great show for you to see the difference between gender and sex identities.

about like how does gendered identity kind of live way outside what like the actual physical body may look and what you may assume because at the end you see them all get dressed and you're like whoa that's how you present yourself in public it's so radically different you've taken me on an entire journey it worked wow I gotta say the recommendations this week of vibrant robust

trio. Love, love, love. We love it. So anyway, listeners, please check it out. Let us know what you think. Also watch this elder bachelor. Golden bachelor. Yeah. Golden bachelor. He's so handsome. Let us know what you're watching, what you think of these shows and send us in your favorite poems. I'd love to see what you're reading there too. You can send all of that at vibecheckatstitcher.com.

Thank you for tuning in to this week's episode of Vibe Check. If you love the show and want to support us, please make sure to follow the show on your favorite podcast listening app. Tell a friend, threaten them if you must. They'll be grateful for it. They'll be great. Scared at first and then grateful. Huge thank you to our producer, Shanta Holder, engineers, Sam Kiefer and Brendan Burns and Marcus Homburg for theme music and sound design. Also special thanks to our executive producers, Nora Oricchiette-Stitcher and Brandon Sharp from Agenda Management and Production.

Listeners, we say it all the time, but we mean it. We want to hear from you. Do not forget. You can email us at vibecheckatstitcher.com. Also, stay in touch. Keep in touch on Instagram at Sam Sanders, at The Ferocity, and at Zach Staff. Use the hashtag vibecheckpod when you do. All right, stay tuned for another episode next Wednesday. And I'm serious. Watch The Golden Bachelor. Okay, bye. Bye. Stitcher.

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