Happy Black History Month, Gahdamnit!
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This message is brought to you by McDonald's. Did you know only 7.3% of American fashion designers are Black? Well, McDonald's 2024 Change Leaders Program is ready to change the face of fashion. The innovative program awards a monetary grant to five emerging Black American designers and pairs each with an industry professional to help them elevate their brands.

I know specifically and distinctly how McDonald's can support and empower not just black Gen Z, but black people. My first job was McDonald's. I learned a lot there about customer service and how to relate to people. I still love that place and go there very often. Look out for the change of fashion designers and mentors.

at events like the BET Awards and the Essence Festival of Culture. And follow the journey of the 2024 McDonald's Change Leaders on their Instagram page, WeAreGolden.

Here's an HIV pill dilemma for you. Picture the scene. There's a rooftop sunset with fairy lights and you're vibing with friends. You remember you've got to take your HIV pill. Important, yes, but the fun moment is gone. Did you know there's a long-acting treatment option available? So catch the sunset and keep the party going. Visit pillfreehiv.com today to learn more. Brought to you by Veve Healthcare.

Hello, ladies. Hello, girls. I'm Sam Sanders. I'm Sayu Jones. And I'm Zach Safford, and you are listening to Vibe Check.

This week. This week. I want to say high and low, but it's just very low. I'm going to just go low. I'm going to stay low. It's just low. The gutter, baby. The gutter. The gutter. We're going to the gutter because we're talking about the Grammys and how that's a mirror to society at large and

We're going to make that argument today that Beyonce's loss shows us a lot about the world. And also, Florida's governor, Ron DeSantis, who polls are showing could beat Trump in a presidential race, but he currently is winning at the war on public education. And we're going to talk about that too, because it's really, really bad. It's really bad, actually. But before we get into all that, let's check in, girls. How are we doing? How are we feeling? Saeed, I haven't seen you in person. How are you doing? Oh.

That's my vibe check. There you go. The um and the look and the laugh. I think I'm okay. I feel...

I feel, actually, you know what it is? So, this is not my recommendation because I cannot in good conscience recommend this, but over the weekend, somehow, the actor America Ferreira came to mind. Oh, love her. I really like her. And I was like, you know, I have a taste for America Ferreira. And so, I was like, oh, let me watch. And initially, I was going to watch Superstore and eventually I will. I know that show is like

critically acclaimed and everything. But then I realized Ugly Betty, the 2007 comedy telenovela that kind of was her TV debut, is on Hulu. So I've been watching that. And so I guess my, and the reason I can't recommend it is it's been this time capsule. 2007, first of all, suddenly feels very, very long ago.

And the show that is this upbeat, hopeful, it's like the beginning of like kind of inclusive, modern television. I think those of us who now watch and love shows like Abbott Elementary, Ugly Betty is weirdly very much on the trajectory of like where TV was going. But the way that manifested in 2007, the number...

of anti-trans jokes, for example, you have to endure. I totally forgot that there's a major plot line that involves the actor Rebecca Romijn, who was a cisgender woman playing a trans woman who is constantly being misgendered. Like, it is a lot. It is a lot. And so it's like, I think, because I've been watching the show, I think I've just been reflecting a lot. And, you know, so much of what we're going to talk about in this episode

are like how the word progress so often is a facade. It's an artifice. And I think the show is just like kind of a refreshing like bucket of ice water. Like it is entertaining, you know, the romantic comedy elements, Vanessa Williams, Naomi Campbell just walked onto the set of the episode I'm watching. Octavia Spencer plays a stalker. Oh my God, that's right. I totally forgot about that. Yes. But also you're just kind of like the politics. So I think, you

With the Grammys and then looking at every – Ron DeSantis and then watching the show that at the time, 2007, it was a breath of fresh air. I think for a lot of us it was exciting to see, for example, Michael Urie's gay character. I remember that. But then he's making fat jokes like every three minutes. I have a theory about all TV before Obama. Yeah.

I think if you go back and watch now any sitcom before the Obama era, it is problematic. Have you ever watched old 30 Rock episodes? It makes ages like milk. This is like slightly better than that, but not much. I really think that like...

The entertainment industry didn't really get the wake-up call to just stop doing that stuff until we had Obama in that White House for several years, making people think about identity and race and presentation. Everything before Obama. I mean, even during Obama. During Obama, but I'm saying there's been progress since then is what I'm saying.

I'm saying. Yeah. There's still bad TV, you know? Yeah. I'm glad you bring that up because it kind of goes perfect today that the culture we watch and consume can tell us something about the times that we live in. It's telling us something. How about you, Sam? I'm feeling good.

We all have the same like, uh. I'm just realizing this week that I have like a lot of like culture to look forward to this year. I'm also like going to some shows again. Tonight, I'm going to a concert of Nick Hakeem, one of my favorite R&B singers. A song of his was featured on Insecure years ago, but he makes chill R&B the vibe too. I'm excited about that.

I'm going to see Margo Price, a country singer whose work I love and whose book is really good. And I'm just feeling like, oh, I'm getting outside again. I know that we've talked before about this year seeming like it might be one of true reemergence. Even though I'm not sure

Even though the pandemic isn't fully over, but I'm feeling that a lot this week. I also got this advanced copy of Brandon Taylor's new book, The Late Americans, and I am loving it. Is it a novel or another short story collection? It's a novel. And so I'm just feeling excited about the pop culture I'm consuming right now. So my vibe is good. Keep it coming, especially after the disappointment that was the Grammys.

I'm focusing on the things that bring me joy, like Nick Hakeem and Margo Price in this new Brandon Taylor book. Oh my God, it's good so far. Yeah. I love it. I love it. I feel like I'm not going to lift us up anymore because my vibe is like- Lift us up from where? You know, I think we were- We're not that high. Sam got us to like a decent number. I tried. I tried.

But I think my mood, you know, I just feel like we're all on this emotional rollercoaster. And Sam, we watched the Grammys together at my house. And in the midst of it is when we got notified that a massive earthquake hit Turkey, Syria, that whole region of the world.

And it just feels like, one, I want to acknowledge that there is a disaster still ongoing in Turkey, Syria, Egypt, parts of Egypt, everywhere. And thousands of people have died. And, you know, The Cut has some amazing resources today on how to help those people. But it just was like in the midst of the Grammys, we're, you know, we're watching the show that started off good and we're going to get to why it was good at first. And in the midst of it, we were like, oh, wait, the whole world, there's something going on at all time.

And it's really hard in this era, which you have push notifications, news on all the time to like protect your joy, protect your peace, and also not get overwhelmed by the world around you. So I just feel like this week I've had like this gut punch of like, is there ever a good moment in a day without something bad happening?

So that's where I'm at. Like, how do I, you know, navigate the world around me dealing with so much? But, you know, I do want to start the show off by just acknowledging what's going on. And we're still learning so much over there. And it's just so devastating. And seeing like the videos of people live streaming in the midst of the rubble while watching the Grammys is just kind of like a mind fuck that I'm still processing. Well, and like the level of destruction, at least 5,000 dead, that death toll will climb and climb and climb as they find more victims. But yeah, it is...

endless whiplash, you know, you're going from one push a notification to the other and often feeling helpless in the midst of it. Yeah. I mean, I know, like, I mean, it's part of the impetus for this podcast is

you know, how are you doing? Like we try to ask it and answer it as a sincere question, which is why I'm okay being like, ah, you know, like I like that we know that we can hesitate. But I think, you know, outside of this space that we've created for ourselves, you know, when someone's like, how are you doing? I honestly don't even know what they are actually asking. Like, am I supposed to just go good and keep it going? Or are you actually trying to check in on me? Are you asking about, you know, like it just, it just, oh,

Yeah. Yeah. It is. That's so funny you say like, are you actually checking in on me? Because I have German friends that are like, you Americans are so funny. You always ask everyone, how are you doing? And you don't care. You never care. That's why I just be talking about the weather. The weather is. Everyone loves the weather. Yes. Everyone loves the weather. That's my vibe. It's real.

Well, before we get into the episode, we of course want to thank all of you who sent us fan mail and reach out to us on social media. I know a lot of you are excited to hear our thoughts on the Grammys. But here's a snippet since we're talking a lot about music and culture. I thought this was great. This is an email from Emmanuel writing from Paris, France.

I love the podcast and always go on walks in the city while listening to you, which means I sometimes burst out laughing in the middle of a street and get stern looks from strangers. That's bold in Paris. That is. They're not being all that kind of. I'm catching up on the past episodes and wanted to add something. Sam recommended a Prince album two episodes ago, and Saeed mentioned he was surprised that Prince's music was on streaming platforms.

Prince refused to have his music on streaming platforms up until his death, and the music is now available because whoever is taking care of his estate has decided to put it back there. I wouldn't say I'm mad about it because it's always good to have Prince's music on hand, but I guess he would prefer people to listen to him on vinyl just like Sam does. Thank you for the wonderful podcast. Keep it up. Thank you, Manuel. Yeah, I love that. Your bravery and laughing on the street in Paris. We stand in solidarity.

because Parisian glares are terrifying. We love hearing from y'all. Keep it coming at vibecheckatstitcher.com. And I would say we have a surprise for you. We will be dropping a surprise episode in coordination with the Super Bowl, specifically about the Super Bowl show that is called Rihanna Returning to Our Lives. How are we feeling about that, guys? Ah, trepidatious. She can return all she wants, but if she sees that bad song from Black Panther, Wakanda Forever, she can go back to where she came from. Look.

I haven't been waiting for five years for that awful song. I swear. Do you think that's going to be the last song she does at the Super Bowl? She's not going to do it. She's not going to do it. I think she's going to do it. I think they're going to do it and then they're going to do that thing where it looks like everyone's holding candles up or something. Oh, God. As long as there are no kids in cages while she does it, I'll be fine with it. We can just move past that. All that said, listeners, catch us the morning after the Super Bowl. We'll be breaking down Rihanna's halftime show. But for now, let's get into this gig, shall we, girls? Let's do it.

So topic one, y'all know we had to do it. We got to talk about Beyonce and the Grammys and the album of the year of it all and the Harry Styles of it all. I want to get a few key facts out there, then we're just going to go.

And towards the end of this segment, we're going to go big picture on what this awards dynamic says about larger society as a whole. But first, as I'm sure you all know by now, Beyonce, this past Sunday, became the most awarded artist in Grammy history. She now has 32 Grammys, more than anybody else.

But she reached that milestone even as yet another critically acclaimed album from Beyonce was shut out from the so-called Big Four Awards at the Grammys. The biggest of those awards being Album of the Year, it went to Harry Styles for his latest album.

This is a pattern that we've been seeing for years now, especially with Beyonce. I want to ask both of you how y'all feel about this, but then go big picture about how these shows treat black people and what it says about how society treats black people. But first I got to ask you both. I mean, Zach, you and I watched it together. Saeed, you went to bed early. Good for you. Um,

How mad are y'all about this? I was really upset. I would like to say, you know, my therapist always tells me anger is a secondary emotion. So when I felt the anger that led to the now infamous tweets for Sam and I now that have led to a lot of feelings from people, that was a response to Harper.

I was so heartbroken to sit there for the fourth time in my life. I'm not that old. None of us are that old. We have experienced this four times. Beyonce sitting at the Grammys, deserving to win, and having to watch her be gracious, smile, the camera focused on her, as she sees that she is having to do more than ever before and still can't reach that benchmark, which is album of the year. So I just feel bad for her.

And I've been so happy to see the response from her fans who are saying, don't go to the Grammys again. You're above this. Like you are the winner, obviously. Because, you know, so many of us focus on the wrong people to validate us every day of our lives. And I do believe that Beyonce knew walking in that night, she's probably not going to get it. That's why she was late. She was like, whatever y'all. And I have to have faith that she's like risen above the Grammys. And it's like, you know what? I do this for myself. I do this for my family, my friends, my fans, and that's it. But,

To see it happen again was heartbreaking. And to see the memes that we all shared with each other of her face next to all the white people that keep beating her, I just, mind-blowing. She's an exercise in grace, I'll say that. 100%. Couldn't be me smiling. Nope.

Nope. Syed, how'd you feel about it? I don't really watch award shows anymore. In terms of like the live broadcast, I tend to be doing whatever I'm doing and I follow along via Twitter. And then I go to sleep early, kind of like Michelle Obama on election night 2016. Because you know what's coming. But also, you know, poet and music critic Hanif Adurb-Kibb referred to the Grammys as theater.

And I think that's actually true for all award shows. And maybe that's part of why I actually enjoy, like, not being in that space. And I don't mean theater. I can't speak for Hanif. But when I think of, oh, it's like theater, it's not pejorative. It means it's a performance and it's a space. And when you watch it, when you're in it, when you're watching the live telecast and maybe you're, like, head of Grammys or Oscars, you're in it.

the emotions do catch up with you. Like, it's hard to be like, it's just an award. You don't need the value. Like, you get swept up and I think it's a little easier to kind of have the grain of salt and everything when you're not watching it live. Like, in my case, waking up the next morning being like, well, yeah, there you go. I guess,

for me, as we go into this conversation, Pablo the Don is an excellent queer music critic that I've come across via TikTok. And they shared two points that I think would be really helpful. One, Pablo has noticed that in the lead up to album of the year, when it's clear that there is going to be some kind of snub or disappointment, categories that usually aren't shown during the live telecast suddenly are.

In this case, this year, it was electronica for Beyonce. And then Bad Bunny, it was like Urbana Contemporary Music. Which again, usually isn't shown during the live telecast. Which they wrote in Spanish but couldn't caption in Spanish. Right, it just says non-English speaking, which is a whole other embarrassment and shame. 500 million people around the world speak in this language and y'all called it non-English.

But like, Pablo was like, it's a sign. Like, when you see that, you know that the Grammys know that they've kind of made a misstep, but still want to be able to cash in on the social currency. And then the other thing that Pablo pointed out of Beyonce's 32 wins, because the Grammy loves to tout the most awarded, da-da-da-da-da. They love to use Beyonce's kind of historic gravitas to drape themselves in her prestige.

Pablo pointed out of those 32 wins, Beyonce has only won seven times against white artists. Wow. That's the point. Wow.

Well, that's the point. And so we did an episode on the greatest Grammy snubs of all time from my podcast, Intuit, over at Vulture. And we talked a lot about how the Grammys have what I refer to as a separate but equal system of awards. Because there are so many subcategories and genres.

You can have an artist like Beyonce that will win for electronic or win all the R&B categories but continually get shut out of the top four, which is best album, best song, record of the year, and then best new artist. And you see it happen all the time. It happened to Kendrick in 2014. Yeah.

When he won – actually, with Kendrick, he lost almost everything to Macklemore that year. We see it happen over and over and over. And where's Macklemore now? Exactly. Like even if you want to say, oh, he deserves – it's like, okay. He's gone. Yeah. How did that play out? But it's all even more galling when you see this literally separate but equal system knowing that the Grammys continue to rely on black artists and black art for attention and viewership to their shows. Right.

So this year at the Grammys and last year at the Grammys, the big draw was waiting to see if Beyonce would break a record. And you wanted to watch and see. Last year, she broke a record as the woman to win the most Grammys. This year, she broke the record for all-time Grammy wins. And the

And the Grammys publicized that. They get eyeballs on that and still can't give her the biggest award that she deserves. Also, especially at the Grammys this week, you saw how much they were just relying on Black talent. The biggest musical moment of the night was this tribute to 50 years of hip hop with every aging Black rapper of note on that stage getting the whole crowd hype.

Trevor Noah hosted the show. Some of the biggest moments came from folks like Lizzo. These award shows can't live without Black people and Black art and Black music at this point. And yet they consistently don't give those Black artists their due. And this is the thing that doesn't happen just at the Grammys. Look at the Golden Globes. After their race scandal, who hosted it this year? Gerard Carmichael to save the Golden Globes.

That makes it even more insulting to me. Well, I think like to broaden your point, music itself wouldn't be what it was without the contributions of Black people. And that's what made the Grammys the really biting moment that it was because you look at, or Black queer people, we're going to be specific. So like Sister Rosetta Tharpe, who created rock and roll, was a queer Black woman who inspired Little Richard, who then inspired Elvis. And you know, it begins with Black queerness and then it becomes really white. And that leads all the way up to electronica music, which Beyonce-

is one of a few Black people that have won in that category ever. And it was created by Black people, Black queer people. And that was my issue was when Harry Styles got up there and said what he said. This doesn't happen very often to people like me. It was kind of like ice water hit a lot of us because we had been produced through the show called The Grammys to think that Beyonce's going to win and we're finally going to see reparations paid to Black people, queer people for the work that they have done for music in general.

When he said that, he could have said instead, I want to thank all the Black people, the queer people that I was inspired by, Prince, Little Richard, et cetera, who got me here. And I think in that moment, he would have saved the day because Beyonce did that when she won for Best Electronic Album.

She said, I'm so happy to be up here. She thanked Uncle Johnny. She said, Uncle Johnny, the black queer community that made this, et cetera, who invented this. When Lizzo won, she said, thank you, Prince, because Prince put her on. Kim Petras, she, you know, complications with her quote. She thanked the whole community. But she thanked Sophie, who died. All of the people thank someone to say, I arrive on your shoulders. Harry Styles did not even think about the shoulders he arrives on. And that is the issue. And that's the issue with the Grammys. That's the issue with award shows, et cetera.

Well, and then this is the thing that I really found kind of dumb in people's response to that. They said, well, you know, he was actually talking about growing up poor and he didn't know, he didn't mean that. And it's like continually people like Harry Styles, they're allowed ignorance. They're allowed to be ignorant and it's excused.

Whereas Beyonce has to do everything right and know everything and know her history and reference it all, and she'll still lose. I think this is why I can't stop thinking about the whole moment. What happened between Harry and Beyonce is what happens to black people and black women in the workplace throughout America all the time. You're better. You don't get what you deserve. You still got a smile. And the ones who win still get to be

Not as good and ignorant. There was even a moment when Beyonce won the Grammy that night that took her to her record of 32. It was presented to her by James Corden. James Corden infamously, infamously got an Emmy for carpool karaoke beating Beyonce's Homecoming, one of the greatest concert films of all time. This is why I think it's so important.

Beyonce represents what so many people of color have to deal with at work. You don't get the thing you deserve, but you got to smile and take a consolation prize from the guy who shouldn't have even got the thing. It feels so visceral and personal to me. I think that's a helpful dot to connect because, you know, I understand something. I go, look,

Beyonce would be okay. She's a millionaire billionaire. She's going to be okay. It's a war show. She's fine. Who cares? That's not going to help me get medicine for my kid this week. And true. That is true. But also, I think it is helpful to understand that

These awards, the Oscars, Golden Globes, Emmys, the Grammys, these are industry awards, ultimately. They're presented as, again, like a theater of entertainment, but they're actually industry awards. So what they are are industries communicating to themselves –

And to us, the perceivers, the consumers, about what they value, what they want to put down in the record books, and where they're going. And I think, Sam, yeah, I think you're on to something. Is it necessarily do or die in a literal sense that Beyonce didn't win album of the year? No. But when we see across culture different industries saying again and again, black people are artifice.

Black people are commodities. Black people are proxies for our sully reputations. And we're going to get everything we can from them without awarding capital.

or even just acknowledgement to them, that to me feels like a, it's kind of like a warning shot. Yeah. And it's symbolic. As you were saying that, Sam, it makes me think of Quinta Brunson winning her Emmy, literally having to step over Jimmy Kimmel. She had to literally do that in her career offstage. Turning her moment into a joke. She had to do it onstage. And it's like, why is it? This is not a coincidence. They have to literally step over Jimmy Kimmel to get their Emmy. They have to literally be presented their Grammy by the guy that brought

Ethan for recording his car rides? It's like –

Beyonce, the most powerful woman in the world, the most powerful black woman in the world, is still a victim to these systems of systemic racism. Beyonce can't beat it at the Grammys after changing the entire music industry. That's what I want folks to realize. It is present for all of us. It is a constant pressure for all of us. And I get it. Beyonce is a billionaire who doesn't need my help.

But I hope that we see that this represents a whole lot more than just Beyonce. I do want to say, historically, the Grammys get it wrong so much. There's a reason why a lot of famous artists are just not showing up. The Weeknd's not going. Drake's not going. We didn't even get into that. Yeah. There's something going on. But.

But here's the Grammy snub of all Grammy snubs is going to make your jaw drop. At the 1985 Grammys, honoring music released in 1984, the following albums were up for album of the year. Cyndi Lauper's She's So Unusual, Tina Turner's Private Dancer, Bruce Springsteen's Born in the USA, and Princess Purple Rain. Guess what won album of the year that year?

Not any of those. Guess. I think I know. That Lionel Richie album with All Night Long on it. The All Night Long Lionel Richie album. Not Nicole's Daddy. The Grammy's been wrong. On that note, we're going to go to a break. When we come back, we'll still be thinking about Beyonce, but talking about something else. You're listening to Vibe Check. Stay tuned.

This message is brought to you by McDonald's. Did you know only 7.3% of American fashion designers are black? Well, McDonald's 2024 Change Leaders Program is ready to change the face of fashion. The innovative program awards a monetary grant to five emerging black American designers and pairs each with an industry professional to help them elevate their brands.

I know specifically and distinctly how McDonald's can support and empower not just black Gen Z but black people. My first job was McDonald's. I learned a lot there about customer service and how to relate to people. I still love that place and go there very often. Look out for the change of fashion designers and mentors

at events like the BET Awards and the Essence Festival of Culture. And follow the journey of the 2024 McDonald's Change Leaders on their Instagram page, We Are Golden.

Here's an HIV pill dilemma for you. Picture the scene. There's a rooftop sunset with fairy lights and you're vibing with friends. You remember you've got to take your HIV pill. Important, yes, but the fun moment is gone. Did you know there's a long-acting treatment option available? So catch the sunset and keep the party going. Visit pillfreehiv.com today to learn more. Brought to you by Veve Healthcare.

All right, we are back and we're going to switch gears to talk about Governor Ron DeSantis and his war on public education. I'm going to start with this. I want you to keep in mind as we think about the way Ron DeSantis is using public policy in the state of Florida, which fortunately the three of us don't live in, but we live in America. There is a line in Sula, Toni Morrison's novel, one of my favorites, where Sula says to some bullies, if I can do that to myself,

What do you think I'll do to you? And that's after she cuts off the tip of one of her fingers with a knife to scare them. And the reason I raised that is I've noticed, and I just wanna say this as an aside, there's a tendency in our culture when something happens in another state, in another part of the country, certainly when something happens in the South, I see a lot of liberal people mock the South as if it isn't majority black.

or as if what happens there doesn't impact us too. So whether you, you know, like, I just want to remind that. But what we see playing out in Florida, it's a threat to all of us. Also, it's a threat to the people who live there, and you should just care about them too, straight up. Okay, so...

You've probably heard, I'm sure, the College Board will be revising the curriculum of its AP African American History course, thanks to complaints from Governor Ron DeSantis of Florida. I think we can all agree, obviously, that is frustrating, disturbing, embarrassing for many, many reasons. Happy Black History Month.

But what the three of us have been talking about in the group chat is how this is actually part of a broader strategy. My theory is that ahead of the 2024 presidential election, DeSantis has copy and pasted Trump's birtherism hack, that's what I'm calling it, in hopes that it will take him to the Oval Office too. But I'm worried about where all of this is taking us. If for Trump, President Obama wasn't a real American-

What we're seeing now is that for DeSantis, inclusive education has no real place in real American education. And he's also saying that queer people aren't real people. He's saying that black knowledge is not real knowledge. All of that. However you want to define inclusive education, this is it, right? He is saying white supremacy. That's what he's saying. And that's why I'm calling it birtherism for books. And I'm not trying to be cute here.

Because the thing is, birtherism didn't just take Trump to the Oval Office. It took all of us to January 6th. So just know, as I'm about to go through all of these policies that DeSantis is introducing, I'm kind of like, well, where does birtherism for books not just take Ron DeSantis, but where could it take us in the endgame, right? It's about more, unfortunately, than just him ending up in the White House. Yes.

Following the lead of policies like don't say gay and all the critical race theory, which we saw a lot of from 2021 and 2022, Ron DeSantis. Okay, let me take a breath. And this is an abbreviated list. Okay. An abbreviated list of policies he's introduced just in the last month. Here we go.

He's announced a plan to block state colleges and universities from having programs on diversity, equity, and inclusion in critical race theory. That means any university programs, including extracurriculars, that are somehow related to diversity, that seems wildly broad, should lose funding or be closed down. At a press conference, DeSantis said all students graduating from public colleges and universities would be required to take a gen ed course to include, and this is a direct quote,

Actual history and actual philosophy that shaped Western civilization, end quote. I mean, that sounds like something right out of like David Dukes' diaries. He also wants to change policy so that tenured faculty members can have their tenure reviewed by university trustees and presidents at any time. So I'm sure just like anyone gets mad at something you said and suddenly your job is on the line.

And the governor has signed HB 1467, which bans, quote, pornographic and age-inappropriate books from schools. Which means that teachers and librarians across the states, this is in elementary schools, middle schools, high schools, they're removing books. They're papering over their classroom bookcases because they're afraid of ending up with a fine of $5,000.

Or five years in prison with a third-degree felony if they, quote, display one of the –

and end up in jail. That was a very fast crash course on DeSantis' war on public education. But how do you feel about this? Does my theory line up for y'all? I have two top-line thoughts that are just tied together.

to the pragmatism or lack thereof of what DeSantis is doing, I think there are two big things going on here. One, DeSantis knows that most of this stuff won't stand. A lot of this stuff's going to get locked up in court. A lot of it, they'll just quietly stop talking about.

And what you see with this is that it's less about whether these rules are actually enacted. It's more about galvanizing the most important constituency to any GOP politician running for president in 2024. And that is evangelical white Christians. They can decide who wins that primary. They matter so much less in the general, but to get that nomination, DeSantis needs to speak to them.

And so he knows most of this shit can't stand, but he's talking right to who he wants to talk to. That's the first point. And then the second point is,

Even if this stuff were to go into effect, it's not actually helping the people he claims need it or want it. A lot of these rich, conservative white parents, they're not sending their children to public school at all. They're sending their kids to charter schools, to private schools. Or it's people who showing up to school board meetings and it's like, you don't even have a kid in the school. Exactly. Why are you here? And so like, this is going to affect, if it goes into effect, all these things, it'll mostly affect-

Poor kids, black kids, brown kids. That's even more gallant about it all. But I think that we have to keep DeSantis' actions...

As offensive as they are, as troubling as they are, as fascist as they are, it's also just like a one plus one equals two strategy for this race for president. Like that's happening too, you know? Yeah. And it's also like a bigger, I think what scares me about DeSantis is that he's presenting a chess game that is about system changes, which is where you should get a little freaked out. When we used to say chess,

Thank God Donald Trump isn't smart, but watch out for the smart version of him. I think DeSantis is the smart version of him. And what we're seeing here is a very long game here, like the Republicans have played with federal judges around de-educating populations that are black and brown, lower income, and making sure that they never become liberals. Because what we know is that education is a direct pathway to democratic reform.

voting. That has been the case forever and ever. The more you know, the more you lean left, which is an amazing thing and people should really meditate on why that is.

And what DeSantis knows is that the less educated population is, the more likely they are to become conservative. It's also more likely that they'll become active in the military and they'll become agents of the state. And whenever you see really vague policies that are really brutal, that's when you should be like, something's off here. A really great example of this are police policies. So police officers don't have a lot of rules around them when they want to fire a gun. It's, I felt scared. And they never define that. It's

really, really vague. And the purposes of that is that the state can be protected and can enact itself in any way it wants.

So what you're seeing DeSantis do is broadening the state's overreach within education, within police departments, everywhere, so that they can just make rules up on the fly and never be checked for. And that is not democratic. That is very anti what this country is about. And people should be mad about this. - And this is the thing about the way GOP politics works. For gosh, two or three decades now,

States share policy. So if one GOP-led state has a bill that they like, they pass it on. And there is a clearinghouse where this stuff ends up

all across the country. So I guarantee you, whatever does work from him right now, we're going to see other states doing it very quickly as well. You know, Greg Abbott is just looking and waiting and ready for all this too. Yeah. Ohio is already directly replicating a lot of these policies. And also, as someone who's, as a writer, I visit schools a lot. I've

taught a bit. I'm also disturbed because in real time, but you're right, it's like maybe he's making a lot of noise, right? And he gets what he wants from the kind of political cachet and then kind of drops it or courts it like it ties up. But there are real time consequences like in terms of the chilling effect. I think a lot about how important like classroom libraries are to students.

I think a lot about how, you know, coming of age is like you're passing through doors as a young person. And those doors close behind you. So the students are being denied opportunities, for example, to be introduced to that book that suddenly makes them want to become a writer. They're missing the opportunity to be introduced to that learning concept that for once makes them sit up in class and go, what's this about the Black Panther?

Oh, that's interesting. Let me learn more about this. And now they're like, I want to be a history major when I go to college. You know what I mean? Like, sure, you know, hopefully students kind of find their entry points. Hopefully educators find ways to connect. But in real time, like we can just say straight up,

This semester in America, there are students that are not going to have those transformative moments of connection that they would have otherwise. And I think that's like so sad. That's so important, because it's also about just feeling seen in the classroom will change how you participate so much. I remember having this like kooky English teacher in ninth grade in high school who one day said, we're going to do two weeks of Tupac as poetry.

And it changed my whole life because I was surprised that a white woman in nowhere Tennessee said Tupac was not only valid, but he was a poet and that we should be engaging in poetry and that she put him alongside Shakespeare. And I can draw a direct line to my life in that moment and what I'm

I have built around me. And if I had not had that, I don't think I would have dreamed as big as I've dreamed to say I'm worthy of standing next to the greats of white literature or the greats of white podcasting or whatever it is. You need to have that representation. I mean, I've mentioned before that in high school, in the suburbs of North Texas, a community that very much its politics are in line with people like Juan DeSantis, encountering poets like Audre Lorde

And Margaret Atwood in particular in high school changed my life. That was the moment my posture changed as a student, you know? And I now know that the only reason I encountered those poets is that my teacher, without naming it this, basically was low-key teaching poetry as a feminist literature, like, unit. She didn't say that. She didn't even talk about gender politics.

But every poet she assigned that semester was a woman who consistently wrote about gender dynamics, you know, like on the sneak. And I just now think, oh, wow, what if that teacher who was like, you know, in teaching now would go, oh, I can't do that. You know, I got to change my curriculum because I don't want to get in trouble, which that's legit five years in prison.

5,000, like these aren't small consequences. Educators aren't cowards. And I want to make it very clear that like, as we all know, like when they're not trying to keep our children alive from mass shootings, they're now having to deal with this, you know, and it's not like they're being paid a lot. And it's also, I keep thinking, well, what do you do if you're a concerned citizen as this happens?

One, I think it's really important to support book culture. Support book culture. Go to your library that's in your town and just be there. Maybe even volunteer there. Maybe even see if you can donate. Buy books from your local bookstore. See if they need help.

Be a part of a culture that supports learning and supports books, even as we see these things happening. And of course, I say it all the time, get involved in local politics. The crazies are already on the school board. You should be too. You should be too. 100%, you should be.

My brother's an educator, and that's all he talks about is how devastated he is every cycle around who gets to sit on the school board. Well, because this is not going to stop because Ron DeSantis knows it gets some attention. We're going to keep seeing more of this. So for me, it's like, all right, how can I be vigilant? How can I be vigilant? I saw someone, a woman in Tampa, wrote about going to a bookstore and buying up

pile of Toni Morrison books. Yes. And the person was like, congratulations. And she was like, uh-uh, this is for the free libraries in my neighborhood. You know those little free libraries and people? I love it. Because that is kind of, it's like, you know, like maybe if it can't be in a teacher's classroom, yeah, if you can build a little free library. And she was like, I'm just going to put them everywhere I see them and hope that the people who need these books are able to stumble across them. And I was like, I love that idea. Yeah. I love that idea. Yeah. Be vigilant. Well, Ron DeSantis, we're watching you.

I'm laughing, but it's not funny. I swear to God. Listen, it is not. You're ruining people's lives. You're ruining people's lives. You will not see the gates of heaven. We're going to take a break, but don't go anywhere. We'll be right back with our recommendations, which I have a feeling are going to be pretty chaotic this week.

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We are back. And before we end the show, we love sharing with you something that's helping us keep our vibes right or throwing us off. Mine is a mixture this week, which I'll save for later. But to get this going, I want to hear from Saeed Jones. I keep going to him today just because I've seen Sam so much in person that I'm like, what's Saeed? Are you tired of me? I'm not tired. See, you should work that out. I did not say that. I did not say that.

Don't reject my friendship, Zach. Oh my God. Do not let any abandonment be triggered. Get this love. Get this love, nigga. I'll see you, my brother.

Matter of fact, once we're done with this taping, I'm just going to Zach's house. I'm going to see you in 45 minutes, player. And I will be here, too. Go ahead, Saeed. I'm sorry. Well, so my recommendation this week is grits. No.

Happy Black History Month. Okay. It is February. It is February. Is it like Grit's Khalees album? Like what is Grit's? The food? The food. Salty or sweet? Salty or sweet? Salty. Salty. We'll get into that in a moment. Okay. You're trying to call shit. I really am. I see you, Sam. I see you.

Okay, so my recommendation this week is actually inspired by Zach because I have been making cookies over the course of these last cold few weeks and that's been great. And so in the spirit of that, as you know, a couple weeks ago, I went to New Orleans with my friend Teddy and had a great time. And while we were there, we had breakfast a couple times and I got grits. And it's like that thing where you forget how much you love something. And I think as someone who grew up in the South but pointedly has not lived in the South-

As an adult for a long time and probably never will because straight up trauma, straight up peril and oppression. I can't do it. But my love of Southern food has never gone away. And so I was in New Orleans and eating grits and it was like every bite, it brought back all of these memories, the butter, the saltiness, the, I love cheese. Like it just, the texture, it felt like home.

And so I realized as someone who, I'm not a cook, I don't enjoy cooking, it overwhelms me, it takes so long. And usually when I do cook, I'm so exhausted that by the time I finish, I don't even wanna eat the food, you know what I mean? But grits, really easy to make. You can make a great pot of grits in like honestly 20 minutes.

And I've been doing it. I've been making grits for breakfast and then sometimes I'll make them for dinner too. Oh my. And I've just, it makes me happy. It makes me so happy. And it's just like a real source of joy. I got to ask, how are you doing the grits besides Saltier Sweet? Are you adding stuff to it? Putting stuff on it? What I like to add to it is...

Smoked Gouda pieces of my Secret and like you know like cut it up dice them up into little pieces and then kind of stir them in so it's like fully melted That's the thing I don't like sometimes we make grits and they just like throw a bunch of stuff on top of it now if that makes sense and Almost like a gumbo. I like grits when the consistency where it still has that smoothness So I like to like stirred things in slowly and let them melt

But that's my secret. Smoked Gouda. I love that. And also, Saeed, Gouda is a secret cheese ingredient to many Southern mac and cheese recipes. It makes sense. It's so great. Gouda is like the secret kind of weapon for some people. So yes, it's a great app. Love it. What about you, Sam? My recommendation for this week is not anything food-related.

It is a streaming platform called Peacock. Zach and I have talked about this on another show. Peacock is like having a moment. They recently gained like 5 million new users in a quarter. They have two bonafide hits in the Natasha Lyonne show, Poker Face, and then the Alan Cumming reality show, The Traitor.

And I've just been spending a lot of time these last few weeks with Peacock, and I like it. I like The Traitor. I like Poker Face. And I just found out all of the back catalog of The Housewives is on Peacock. I've begun watching Potomac. I can't get enough of those crazy light breaks. Michelle Obama's favorite show. We love Potomac. It is great. Yeah, I said it. I said it, Saeed. I said it. Crazy light breaks. I cannot do just...

Anyways, all that said, Peacock is working for me right now. It's also where I watch SNL now. I'm just enjoying their content. I thought I was a forever Hulu, HBO Max person, maybe Netflix. But Peacock is doing the damn thing. Also, Amber Ruffin is on there, and I love her too. Yeah, Amber is great. And Sam and I sat down with Ashley Ray to do her show this week, which you can listen to also today as you're listening to this, called TV I Say, where we break down why Peacock is rising. Peacock is peacocking.

I think it was the joke. Peacock, Peacock, with help from black creators. Black people, yeah. You had me. So this is the thing. Sam always has me until like, when it comes time for Sam to stick the landing on an opinion, that's always where he loses me. Because when he was like, I watch SNL. I'm like, you fucking ancestor. He was so old. Who the fuck watches SNL? I watch it for Bowen. Bowen's my boo. I love me some Bowen Yang. So old. Oh, man.

My recommendation this week is a bit complicated. It's about a TikTok star I love who now has risen above what could have been a lot of controversy for her. And it is a user named Christine Gerard. She runs the SoulCycle kind of stationery bike facility called Power & Flow, which is in Arizona.

And she has become famous for being the TikTok star that does these classes where she got white people hitting the beats on these bikes. Popping and locking. It is amazing. She plays really great music. She's wonderful. Her and her husband opened a studio about two and a half years ago, cleaned out their savings. It's amazing.

Peloton got tagged in a bunch of comments under some of her videos, Cody Rigsby specifically, which I have a lot of thoughts about Cody Rigsby. He teaches hip hop classes on Peloton's app and is a white gay man. So that's for another day. And Cody Rigsby came for her when someone said, why isn't Peloton doing these classes? He wrote, absolutely not. This shit is unsafe and a joke.

What is wild about that is that Cody has, you know, there's a whole conversation around like the using of black music within Peloton, whatever, by white people. But this woman was minding her business. She was running a business. She had no, like anything against Peloton. She loves them, has supported them. Cody just decided to come after her and he has faced a wrath from the cycling community that has been beautiful. What was he saying was unsafe? I don't know. The choreo on the bike, I guess. I don't know. Which they just move in their arms. I mean, what's the worst that could happen? Isn't that what he does? I

Yes, he does the same thing. So what was great about this is Christina has put out a video where she doesn't fight him. She's like, Cody, I respected you. I loved you. I'm just a small business owner. I wish you would just let me do my job and let me live my life. Thank you so much, but please don't say these things about me again. And it is really a masterclass and like not punching down as Michelle Obama warns us. She did not go low. She went high and it's beautiful.

And then Cody had to respond. He apologized and then said to all of his followers, go to her studio. Go to her studio. She won. She won. I will say the lesson in all of this for someone like Cody is,

The golden rule of talking shit, punch up, never punch down. Yes, exactly. Don't do it. He's huge. You know, I'm not a Peloton girly, but I know who he is. I am. I'm sure he's someone with millions and millions of followers. I wrote this morning to Beyonce. Ta-da! Sure did. He's super resourced, super wealthy from Peloton. He had no reason to come for her at all. And he did, and she clapped back

but in a way that has really just been beautiful. And I think everyone listening to the show, follow her on TikTok, follow her on Instagram. The TikToks are amazing. It's great. I haven't been to her class in Arizona. I want to go, but you can support from afar. So check her out. Yeah. What are y'all feeling or not feeling this week? What's your vibe? What's keeping it right? Are you going to Christina's classes? Because if you are, please DM me. I want to hear about it. You also can email us at vibecheckatstitcher.com.

Thank you all for tuning in to this week's episode of Vibe Check. If you love the show and want to support us, please make sure to follow the show on your favorite podcast listening platform and tell a friend. Huge thank you to our producer, Shondell Holder, engineer, Brendan Burns and Malchus Holm for our theme music and sound design. Special thank you to our producers, Nora Ritchie at Stitcher and Brandon Sharp from Agenda Management and Production. And last but not least, thank you, Jared O'Connell and Imelda Skender. Thank you for all your help.

And like I said earlier, we want to hear from you. So you can email us at vibecheckatstitcher.com. You can keep in touch with us on Instagram at at Zach Staff, at Sam Sanders and at The Ferocity. You can use the hashtag vibecheckpod across every platform. We will see it.

And you can follow us on TikTok at at VibeCheckPod. And I want to make myself very clear. When I made the joke about someone recommending the show via Grindr and I would share it, I was very serious. And I have yet to get a DM about a Grindr message. So you girls either need to download the app, check out the app. Maybe our listeners are more into Scruff. Or Scruff. Actually, do it on a dating app. I would love to see it. Put VibeCheck in your Hinge profile and you'll get all the dates. All right. Well, that's our show. Stay tuned for another episode next Wednesday. Bye. Bye.

Bye. Stitcher.

Yeah, it's another day, but what kind of day is it really? A day of doom scrolling? Laundry day? Nah, it's a White Claw day. Light and refreshing tasting. Uniquely cold-weight filtered. There's an iconic flavor for everyone. So grab a pack, grab your friends. Make the most of each day with those who matter most. When you're together with White Claw, every day is a once-in-a-lifetime experience. You just gotta grab it. White Claw. Grab life by the claw. Please drink responsibly. Hearts also with flavors. White Claw's also works Chicago, Illinois.

Damn.

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