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Hello, ladies. Greetings from Texas, where I'm boot scooting and boogieing, hooting and hollering. Hooting and hollering. I was scared. I thought you were going to be like, hello, ladies. And Saeed, what in tarnation? I'm just a little nervous. I'm Sam Sanders. I'm Saeed Jones. And I'm Zach Stafford. And you are listening to Vibe Check. Vibe Check.

This week I am in Austin, Texas for South by Southwest, busy with stuff down here, but joining my sisters for our weekly Kiki. And we have so much to talk about this week. A lot is happening. A little bank called Silicon Valley Bank collapsed last week. And then Joe Byron said, let me help y'all out. And he did. We're going to talk about what it means and what it doesn't mean.

Also, we're going to get into a thing you might have been noticing the last few weeks has become a trend. Politicians being outed or not quite outed, just kind of put on blast for sexual things.

We're going to talk about that and talk about whether it's ever appropriate to out a politician. And I would say they're telling on themselves. I was about to say, it's almost like maybe it's because of social media. Social media has got these girls in a chokehold because they cannot not like the girls. Some of this stuff, they aren't even being outed. It's just like, there. Anywho, we'll get into it. But first, let's all check in. How are my sisters doing? Saeed, how are you? Woo!

Well, you know, you're at South by Southwest right now. I stand in exhausted solidarity. Yo, conferences are tiring. It's been a while since I've been there, but I've done South by Southwest twice in the past. I just got back from a huge writing conference, AWP. It was in Seattle this year. And it's an annual conference that

I went to, I hadn't been to since 2016. So it's not just the pandemic, it's been a few years. But before that, I'd attended this conference every year, basically since I was a junior in college. It's how I found my graduate program. It's how I met friends like Isaac Fitzgerald. We became Twitter pen pals after we met at a conference. And that was what, 2011? Roxane Gay is someone else. So I have a

it's not just like, okay, let me just show up. It's like, I've kind of grown up as a writer with this conference, but showing up at these big spaces with all of these peoples for the first time. Oh,

Oh, man. It was intense. And just one example, this conference has like a huge book fair where there's like publishers and indie presses and writing programs and all that kind of stuff. And I used to love it because, you know, the serendipity of running into people is a huge part of why you show up, right? But maybe I had to set a timer on my phone every time I went into this space. About 25 minutes was all I can handle. And I just have to –

I think it's just that thing where we have to acknowledge some of our patterns, some of our tolerances for spaces is changing. Well, and also the last three years I've been working from home and on many days during the work week, I only see my dogs and my boyfriend. That's it. And so to go into an environment where you're not just on all day for the conference, but seeing friends you haven't seen in years in passing and being like, let's hang out. It's hard. Zach, how are you doing?

I mean, I'm good. I'm rested. I'm not anywhere. I'm at home. You're never at home. I'm about to leave again, but I'm never at home. And I'm usually at South by Southwest. This is my first time in five years I haven't been there besides the pandemic years that were shut down. And I remember last year when I went was my first big public event.

Um, and I got to be on the, one of the main stage with the birds aren't real people. Oh yeah. It was so overwhelming because like you're running into people and you're like, how do I know you? Twitter? We met before. What's going on? And I kept having to hide in my Airbnb to like get myself back together. Um,

And it was just so, so hard. So I definitely say, I can tell that you are tired because you've been working. Like you've been doing a lot of events which we'll talk about. But I've been chilling. I was at a tennis tournament this weekend, which was wonderful. Not pickleball? Not pickleball. Not pickleball, girl. It was at Indian Wells where the pickleball national championship

It does happen. But I was at the tennis tournament that Indian Wells opened. And it's been really fun this week because of our conversation, Sam. I found out we have so many listeners that love tennis and hate pickleball. I feel so aligned. The emails have been – I haven't checked the emails. And the tweets. Quite impassioned. A lot of tweets. And there were some listeners at Indian Wells. I don't know if at the time I fully understood –

how serious this tennis versus pickleball thing is. Also, what do these listeners expect from me? I've already admitted to owning an Otterbox as an iPhone case. I am geriatric. An elder. Let me be. Let me be. But I will say, and we're going to talk about this much later, but Saeed did come out as an anti-tar stand, which happened while I was at a tennis tournament with no cell phone service. So my phone was beeping

And then disappearing and beeping. And I was like, did Saeed cancel me? Is my life over? What's happening? But it was a mixture of tennis love and tar chaos, which we're going to talk about later. My, my, my. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. People listening. We're going to get into tar. I have, I have experience.

This is pages. Pages. So it would be a spoiler-heavy thing, but we're going to do that at the end. Yeah. Well, Sam, how are you doing before we jump into it? I'm good. I'm tired from this conference, but I'm having a great time. And I'm feeling really optimistic about the state of TV and movies today.

this year out of what I'm seeing at South by. So I moderated two panels, one for the premiere of Swarm, Donald Glover and Janine Neighbors' new show on Amazon Prime Video, all about a kind of Beyonce superstand who starts killing. It's really great. The crowd loved it. It's going to be big and buzzy. Apparently Beyonce's watched it. And then yesterday I interviewed Julio Torres about his really, really, really great new film called Problemista, which is an immigration comedy that he directed starring him and Tilda Swinton.

What a pairing. Right? It was a really good movie. I was at a party for Meg Stalter's new movie, which our friend Luke Rogers helped produce. And I'm feeling like we're going to get some good TV and movies out in the streets this year. I love it. And I'm optimistic. I think I closed last year being overwhelmed and exhausted by having too much shit to watch. Mm-hmm.

But I'm ready to be more discerning this year, and I think there's going to be good things to consume. So South By, even though it's exhausting me, has me optimistic. So that's my vibe this week. It's going to be a good year for TV and movies, I believe. I love it. I agree. I think everything, everywhere, all at once, which, you know, shout out to all of that. Y'all know, y'all know. It's Wednesday. We get it.

But I think it initially premiered at South by Southwest. So, you know, it's kind of cool to think like, oh, wow, you might be seeing some movies and TV shows that next year we're all like, oh, my goodness. Well, and what's so crazy about South by when I first started coming to South by, I think I first came for NPR in like 2010. It was a music festival primarily. Now it's a film and TV festival. Okay.

A lot of journalist teams are not even sending their music critics to South by anymore. It is a film festival and a TV festival, which I find quite interesting. And it's because Sundance, the Berlin Film Festival, always happened before it. And then you have Cannes coming up. You have Tribeca coming up. You have Toronto coming up. South by is so busy that they got to really amp up the filming and the music. They were like, okay, whatever. And also it's interesting, and I wonder, Sam, if you agree, but having grown up in Texas, you're right. When we...

were young people in the state, I felt like Austin was defined by its independent music scene. It had a great independent, and also Denton, Texas, actually. But I feel like particularly in the last 10, 15 years, as you explained, Austin, it started to feel like Los Angeles, not just because of South by, but literally like industry changes in the city. So maybe that's all. There's a lot of tech folks down there now. There's a strip of South Congress near downtown Austin that feels like you're in L.A.,

There's a Soho house in Austin now. It's a scene. It's become a scene. And that Soho house, fun fact for those in Texas, is not private. Part of it is public, so you can go to it. Oh, I can go in there? Yeah, you can go in there. I'm going today. So there you go. Yeah. Anywho, before we get into the episode, we want to thank all of you who sent us fan mail. Even those of you who called me out over pickleball. I don't care. I don't care.

I'll give you my personal email address. Send me a line. I love Sam Sanders. He stands in his truth. I double down. He does not care. Listen, yes, it's called conviction. Thank you all for reaching out on social media and via email. We want to keep hearing from you. Keep the emails coming. Vibecheckatstitcher.com. Vibecheckatstitcher.com. All right, now let's jump in, shall we? Let's go. Let's go.

Zach is going to explain our latest financial crisis. Go ahead, Mr. Yellen. Do it. I mean, I am Janet Yellen. Zach Yellen. Listen to me. But yeah, I'm going to, you know, I've never been a financial reporter. This has been a fun exercise these past few days of having to understand what's happening. Now having to

Tell the tale today, which, you know, I'm excited about. I also, in full disclosure, I recently have, you know, after my life at Grindr as an executive, I sit on some advisory committees for VCs to help queer people get money. So, like, I personally was, like, really pulled into this in a really weird way, which we can talk about. It's giving Kara swish her. Kara swish her. Ha ha ha!

Not the business. I love it. I love it. I'm dying. All right. The bank. Let's get to the bank. Let's get to the bank. Okay. So this is a bit complicated. We're going to try to use our own personal stories, lives to weave into this to make it make sense. And I hope at the end of this, you walk away being able to tell your friends what happened. Because the one thing about finance is that it's about power and they like to gatekeep the language around it. And we're going to try to distill all of it today. Okay.

Yeah. So to get us going, the bank in question is called Silicon Valley Bank. If you'd never heard of it before, there's a reason for that and you are not alone. That bank primarily only worked with the hyper wealthy, all of tech, all of that. So if you're not in that space, there was a reason why you didn't hear about it. Yeah. And it's crazy that we didn't know about it because it's the 16th large, or it was the 16th largest bank in the country. Uh-huh.

It just wasn't fucking with folks like us. It just felt like a perfect example of that saying, like, real money, real wealth moves in silence. It was so silent. I didn't know it was here until it was gone. And now we're going to figure out how much it was here when it ripples through our economy. So a big reason why this is such a big deal outside of other banks failing or other financial institutions failing is because there's this thing called the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation. So what's really cool about that is that

If you have a banking account in this United States of America, and you have less than $250,000 in it, which is most people in this country, you are protected. You never got to worry about it. If your bank fails, the feds will come in and give you that money back. Girl, you're okay. But when you cross that threshold, that's when things get a little dangerous, and you got to think about things differently. This bank specifically, while it's the 16th largest bank in America, it was...

It's one of the wealthiest banks ever in terms of customer to wealth ratio because most of these accounts there had way over $250,000 and they were not insured. Yeah, it was a lot of VC people, a lot of startup people, and they're usually having 10, 20, 30 million in the bank, if not more.

And so the reason that this got out of hand is because these folks didn't have their money insured. So when there were fears about the status of this bank, all they really thought to do was take the money out because they knew it wasn't insured. And that caused a run. And these VCs, because they love Silicon Valley Bank, this bank helped get them their first financing, was there for them the whole way. They kept all their money there, which most organizations would never, ever, ever do. And that's why when everything started falling apart, things really got rocky. Yeah.

Well, and what was crazy is some of the deals that Silicon Valley Bank had with startup folks and VC folks said that if we give you this much money or loan you this much money, you have to invest everything with us. So they really were telling these folks, it's just us. You're just hanging with us. And let me interject here as the girl who has not worked in a California VC or gone to Harvard. Look, I learned a lot about economics from The Wire.

So, you know, I'm just saying for those of us who are like, wait, bitch, I'm a little confused. I mean, I feel like a pretty basic thing that straight up, like those of us are like really don't understand like investment and stuff. We do understand the basic idea of like, you're supposed to diversify. Whatever little money you have. Generally, we understand that what you want to do is not have it all in one place because something can go wrong and then you're totally vulnerable. It

It was so bad and these startup bros were so undiversified that there were many last week when they were trying to pull their money out of Silicon Valley Bank, had nowhere to put it. And so some companies were putting the money in CEOs' personal bank accounts because there was nowhere else to put this money. I burst out laughing last night when I realized that BuzzFeed –

had a lot of its money in silicone. But most of it, and I was like, of course it does. Of course they would do this. But also it's striking because I just, I don't know when I think about, I don't really think too often about like, where do companies store their money? Generally, I'm thinking of individuals, consumers, but this has been interesting because of the kind of like corporate aspect. Can I tell you how bad he got over at Vox?

They fixed it, but for a day last week, Vox's company cards wouldn't work. Yep. Because they're tied up with Silicon Valley Bank. They had Silicon Valley Bank credit cards, which would not work. Dang. Yep, yep, yep. We should now talk about why the run happened and what caused it.

caused this. Yes. Let's get to that. And I think some historical context will make you understand why these guys who are in their 30s and 40s freaked out so much. So for those of you that are above the age of 30, you very vividly probably remember the 2008 crisis, the recession that hit.

That happened on September 15th, 2008, when the Lehman Brothers Bank on Wall Street failed. And the difference between this failure and the Silicon Valley bank failure is that that one was about mortgages and housing, and the housing market was really bloated, and it burst, and everything just fell apart.

So it's very different than this. And this one's about tech companies not being very diverse. But before we get into that, everyone here, where were you when that happened? Because I still have PTSD about that day. I was entering my first year of graduate school at the Kennedy School, and I remember my econ and stats professors freaking out, saying, I can't lecture the syllabus today. We've got to talk about this.

And these really, really smart economics professors were like, I've never seen anything like this in my life, and I'm very scared. And that scared me. And what was crazy about 2008, all of this shit was connected. Lehman Brothers was tied to the housing market. Everyone's tied to the housing market. And when that collapsed, the entire economy collapsed. And what's different about this one right now is Silicon Valley Bank is big, but they don't have their hands in

in as much other stuff as these banks in 08 did. So we might be protected. Also, Joe Biden and what's her name stepped in right away and said, we're fixing this. So that helped a lot as well. But you do get some PTSD when you start thinking about what happened to Silicon Valley Bank last week compared to 08.

Yeah, my memories of 2008, it's interesting because two things that always stand out when I think about it is, one, I have vivid memories of my mom in, let's say, 2004 to 2008. She was really trying to get a home loan. She really wanted a little home for herself. And it really probably would have been like a one bedroom because I was in college at that point. And she could not get a loan. She couldn't qualify for it. And it was so...

and embarrassing. And I remember sometimes she would feel comfortable telling me she had been rejected again, and then sometimes it was just like she wouldn't even mention it and I wouldn't. And that's really frustrating. But it also meant she did not get one of those loans that blew up people's lives. And so it was actually kind of interesting to see how straight up anti-black discrimination redlining in a way,

way protected my mother. And then also September 2008, I'm starting my first semester of graduate school at Rutgers University, Newark, where I studied creative writing. And I was fortunate enough. I mean, I guess it was also my work, my talent, whatever, but I got a fully funded teaching fellowship. So I had a salary, I had health insurance, I was taken care of and funding in that program was locked in.

Some programs, like the University of Iowa, for example, it's notorious for being very competitive. And so your funding is not stable. It's kind of like you're competing against your classmates. And so I remember...

And weirdly feeling like, wow, my mother did not run into like all of this huge misfortune. And then I also, for those two years of, you know, those initial two years of the recession, I was kind of protected in a way that I absolutely would not have been otherwise. You know, if I were graduating from grad school right then, woof.

Yeah. And that's what, I was in college. I just started and all, I was in a philosophy class and the seniors were spiraling because I just started. Philosophy majors, it's hard to get a job anyway. I was just taking a class for fun. I wanted to learn about some Foucault, honey. And they wanted to be philosophers. Yeah. They were just freaking out, you know, and personally, you know, I don't know if I've talked about this in public before, but, um,

My father was indicted around this time for his crimes related to the mortgage crisis. So my dad was part of a really high profile crackdown that happened with a lot of these mortgage groups that were predatory. And my father was one of them. And he's now out of prison but was incarcerated for it. So I was personally dealing with it from a family standpoint, but also economically dealing with it as a college student, taking out loans. I had to take out loans because my dad lost everything.

He did commit a crime, so he lost everything. And I'm in this. So I also was like, oh my God, everything's over. It's falling apart. And we all survived it. And the reason why we've all survived it is because the government under Obama jumped in and began repairing the economy and building regulations around it.

And this is what's crazy. When you talk about the Silicon Valley bank failure, you've already seen politicians like Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders say the reason this collapse happened is because Donald Trump rolled back one of those post-recession regulations in 2018, and it directly caused this. It made it easier for banks like Silicon Valley Bank to do whatever they wanted to do and not get checked.

And we should explain quickly how a thing like a bank run happens. So one-on-one, when you put your money in a bank, they invest it in other stuff to make more profit. So the bank is holding your money, but also reinvesting your money so that they can make a profit.

And for a while, Silicon Valley Bank had a bunch of money flowing into their coffers because VC was throwing money at startup founders who put it in Silicon Valley Bank. And they invested a bunch of this in government treasury bonds. And usually government treasury bonds are really, really safe because the government is not going to fail, right?

But as the economy began to turn this last year or so, a lot of these startup heads needed to take more money out of Silicon Valley Bank. So there was less money in their bank anyway. And the return on those government bonds began to decrease because as the interest rate went up in America, the yields back on those bonds that they had bought a long time ago with lower rates became less. So they basically needed more money.

And this happens to banks all the time. But Silicon Valley Bank basically was going to sell some stuff to buy some other stuff and get some more cash, right? This happens all the time. But it's different when you have a consumer base like Silicon Valley Bank customers. These are titans of tech.

who are online all the time. Online and all in touch with each other. Yes, and it's easy for them to get scared. So if my bank were going through some shit and had to sell some stuff to make some more money, I probably wouldn't even read the email if they told me. But I also wouldn't be calling up every other Bank of America customer I know saying, girl, are you worried? But with Silicon Valley Bank, as soon as one of those Silicon Valley bros found out what was going on, they called everybody else.

Then you had venture capital folks telling startup founders to pull their money out. And this was a run on the banks basically caused by bro Twitter and Slack. And I was talking to Kara Swisher about this, and she said, yeah, if these guys weren't so heavily online, this crash may not have happened.

These girls are pack animals who got scared. That's what it is. And that's why Biden and Yellen had to respond so quickly because you have people like Elon Musk, who's very online, speaking about how they are billionaires, Peter Thiel, moving billions of dollars out of banks into their own coffers. That disrupts the entire economy. It disrupts the entire culture around money. And it would make people like you and I, who may be at Bank of America, JP Morgan Chase, want to pull our money out. And if that began to happen...

Everything would fall apart. And that would be a problem. So my thing is, this is really interesting, but I guess to a certain extent, I only care about this in terms of how it might impact the rest of us. And so the two questions I have are,

are, will this impact the rest of us, right? Will what happened to the bank and what the Biden administration and Janet Yellen do, for better or worse, be a domino effect? Should the rest of us be worried? Is this like the beginning of something seismic like 2008? And then the second question, to also take it back to 2008, is this a bailout?

Would you consider this a bailout? Because, of course, for the three of us and for, I think, the people that we think about and care about the most, it's pretty striking to see things like SNAP food benefits being taken away from families right now. Or the Supreme Court is clearly about to intervene and make sure that student debt relief –

doesn't actually become a reality. And so like seeing, like, you know, like we know this bank is complicated. It's not just billionaires. We know one of our listeners is a doctor based in Boston and the bank that his practice has used for years was acquired by SVP. You know, he's not some tech bro. So I'm not just going to write them all off. But I was like, what does this mean for the rest of us? It's less of a bailout than what happened in 08.

In 08, a lot of these banks were made whole, paid out, and the leaders of these banks never had to face any punishment. Joe Biden has already said the leaders of Silicon Valley Bank, they're not going to get paid out for their investments in the bank. Folks who had money in the bank will get it back. But if you were like some executive as an investor in that bank, you're not getting your money back. They're also not yet free from any legal ramifications. So Joe Biden has already said that.

But I do think he had to do it to prevent this situation because a bank like Silicon Valley Bank is never just tech bros. All those companies have real people who work for them. They got janitors and secretaries and all the like. And this bank was actually kind of diversified. They were putting billions in to work with nonprofits and folks that were helping with housing and other issues. So it wasn't just the bros. But I think from what we've seen now –

Joe Biden and Yellen stepping in so quickly to just stop the bleeding.

I think it might work. I think we'll know by the end of the week if there's a further bigger effect, but I think it might be okay. And I would say we're going to be okay. And what this does set a precedent for, which is really good for a lot of people, is that the FDIC will step in if you have balances over 250. So if, let's say, you just got a loan for a house and the cash is sitting in your bank account and you have half a million dollars for your house and your bank was to fail, you'd be protected. So there's an interesting way in which, hopefully, this is precedent setting to where when there are...

Extreme situations, the U.S. government will help. What I hope this also says to press it around is we should be helping everyone in extreme situations. The person that doesn't have Medicaid, that can't get treatment for cancer, should have access to healthcare. These students do not need to be paying back these debts or paying these creditors back. So I think it should help us and Senator Sanders and Warren, I know them and they're going to use this as a calling card in 2024.

to push us to have a more radically helpful government when it comes to money. I sure hope so. And also, what this is a reminder of, I tell folks this all the time, money is made up. Money is imaginary. It's a social contract, like gender. The government can make money when they want to make it, and they can move money when they want to move it at the drop of a hat. So don't ever let the government tell you they don't have enough money for healthcare or for student loan relief or...

Or for things like that because they just found hundreds of billions of dollars in a day to save Silicon Valley Bank. The money is out there. They create money. We do not live in a scarce country. There is no scarcity. I really hope moving forward from this and in particular thinking of Senators Warren and Sanders, I hope that the next time they call these tech CEOs in particular to the Hill who are always –

Yelling for deregulation, always understandably dragging federal government for being too slow to act. And then it's like, uh-uh, we showed up when you needed us. Remember that? Remember what we did? And so it's gonna come. I want some strings to be attached. I guess that's what I'm gonna say. I want some regulations and some strings.

strings to be attached. I want the bank fees, for example, that they're using to kind of fund this bailout, not bailout. I want some of those bank fees, for example, to be taken out because they disproportionately impact poor and working class people. Yeah.

Yeah, I agree. Well, we will be watching this story, which is very, very fast moving. And I want to say bravo to all of us for really breaking down something that was super, super helpful. Look at that. Look at us. Government bonds, baby. Government bonds. Listen, banks, infrastructure, we got you. And I would just like to thank the Wires, Stringer Bell,

For everything he taught me about street economics. Also, have more than one motherfucking bank account. Hello? If you can. If you can. If you can. If you can. All right. Well, we need to take a quick break, but stay tuned. We'll be right back to talk about these messy, messy politicians and their Twitter, Instagram fingers that are going crazy.

This message is brought to you by McDonald's. Did you know only 7.3% of American fashion designers are black? Well, McDonald's 2024 Change Leaders Program is ready to change the face of fashion. The innovative program awards a monetary grant to five emerging black American designers and pairs each with an industry professional to help them elevate their brands.

I know specifically and distinctly how McDonald's can support and empower not just black Gen Z but black people. My first job was McDonald's. I learned a lot there about customer service and how to relate to people. I still love that place and go there very often. Look out for the change of fashion designers and mentors

at events like the BET Awards and the Essence Festival of Culture. And follow the journey of the 2024 McDonald's Change Leaders on their Instagram page, We Are Golden.

Here's an HIV pill dilemma for you. Picture the scene. There's a rooftop sunset with fairy lights and you're vibing with friends. You remember you've got to take your HIV pill. Important, yes, but the fun moment is gone. Did you know there's a long-acting treatment option available? So catch the sunset and keep the party going. Visit pillfreehiv.com today to learn more. Brought to you by Veve Healthcare.

All right, my queens, we are back and we're going to switch gears to the politics of outing. Simple, love it. Keep it simple because nothing else about this is simple. Let's start here. Tennessee Lieutenant Governor Randy McNally announced Monday that he is

pausing all social media activity after revelations that he repeatedly commented on the Instagram post of a 20-year-old Southern twink by the name of Franklin McClure. According to McClure's interview with The Cut magazine, that I reckon

It's actually a really interesting conversation between Franklin and a writer who's also, I believe, from Tennessee in the south where Franklin lived for a long time. And it's kind of interesting dialogue. But McClure said that the 79-year-old McNally has been in touch with him not just via those comments but apparently via private messages on Instagram for at least three years. Wow.

McClure told The Cut that the politician has been commenting on his page for almost three years in addition to sending him private messages, quote, checking on my mental health, compliments, and random things about his life and what he's going through. Okay? Apparently this, and also this 20-year-old was not the only LGBT-identified person that Randy McNally was commenting on their page. Was he sending them money or just saying hi? We know nothing about

money. We know nothing about in-person contact. It seems like it was mostly messages, comments, a lot of rainbow emojis. Um,

The general consensus is that this politician's social media activity is newsworthy because, of course, this is the lieutenant governor of the state of Tennessee, which in particular has introduced 26 anti-LGBT bills so far this year. Y'all, it is mid-March. That is a lot of anti-LGBT public policy for one state so early in the year, and it's the most in the

country, according to the Human Rights Campaign. So I want to make this clear. It's not just any politician in any state, whatever, and it's like, oh, this is an awkward social media situation. There's a direct relationship between the politics that the politician is supporting and perhaps how this person is living. McNally, this politician, has supported the anti-drag bill that we discussed in a previous episode of Vibe Check. He opposes marriage equality and voted to limit sports participation on the basis of sex assigned at

birth, which is to say this is a contemporary example of political outing. It has a long, complicated history, but here's just a very fast gist. For most of recent history, outing was something that was done to abuse, terrorize, ruin the lives of queer people. And you'll remember that until fairly recent in the United States, it was illegal to be LGBT. So being outed

could literally not just get you fired, you could end up in jail well into the 20th century. HIV/AIDS in the 80s changed all of that, both because of the way the disease works, people were being exposed unintentionally, inadvertently. But also a lot of activists felt that there was an onus on coming out and being open about HIV/AIDS to save people's lives, to try to talk to people about what was going on amidst this

unprecedented pandemic. Which means that by the 1990s, queer activists began using outing to expose and push back against politicians who, like McNally, publicly supported policies that were anti-LGBTQ. And there are so many examples of

We could list, but I just wanted to give two. Assistant Secretary of the Department of Defense Pete Williams publicly supported the exclusion of gay people from military service. That's don't ask, don't tell. Well, he was outed by activists in 1991. And then in 1996, Senator Barbara Mikulski, she was a Democrat representing the state of Maryland, was outed by activists disgruntled by her support of the 1996 Defense of Marriage Act.

So that is how outing really functioned, I would argue, in the 90s up until marriage equality was passed. I think in the last few years, things have changed, and I want to talk to Sam and Zach about why that might be the case. I think what we're seeing with McNally is a significant example of what we see now, where people are being outed.

outed almost by themselves, right? I don't think we can call it outing. It's not quite outing. And also, I want to make it clear, this lieutenant governor, I'm not saying he's gay or bisexual. I am saying that he's been identified consistently liking and interacting with queer people that he's also trying to oppress.

I think there are a few things going on here. One, what the fuck is happening in Tennessee? Besides this guy all up in the Southern Twinks DMs, the governor of Tennessee who just signed a bill policing drag, there's a photo of him in drag from back in the day. Yeah, that's Governor Bill Lee and also the politician who introduced the bill, both of them. Yeah, so I think, one, Tennessee is on some weird shit right now, but two, one,

None of these are classic outings. That governor, he stood for that photo himself. And this guy McClure was making the comments himself in public. These are public comments that anybody could find on Instagram. So I am a lot less conflicted about this kind of situation because no one was like following them. No one sent a private investigator to their house following their car to see what they were doing. This was all out in broad daylight.

So I think we have to classify it a little bit differently than outing. Outing is a good shorthand for it, but it's not quite outing. Yeah, I would say you're right, but I would also argue because I'm from this area of the world. I'm friendly with some of the reporters working on this case. They saw the comments and they investigated it, and they're going deeper into his life. So they're now going – they're trying to substantiate these claims by talking to his family, his loved ones, trying to find a partner, all these things.

This same thing happens with, you know, Senator Lindsey Graham has faced allegations for many years. He's always denied them in really interesting ways. But it's something that people in D.C. talk a lot about. People in Fox News even talk a lot about. If memory serves, didn't a sex worker...

kind of came forward, but then they were silenced. Yeah, it came forward and then all the tweets were deleted. So we've had people come forward and then take it back. But there is this kind of glass closet we've seen emerge in the post-AIDS kind of politics of where these politicians like an Aaron Schock will...

you know, be a congressperson from Illinois, decorate his congressional office like a Downton Abbey, live a very openly gay life in the bars, go out, but then deny it to the face of the public. And it's kind of like, what do we do now is the question I think you're asking, Saeed. It's like, should we return to these politics of saying, you know, but no, you don't get to live in this glass closet. Like, we get to kind of release the hounds into your life and really drag you

out, which I'm kind of of the mind of, yeah, like if McNally is having lovers, bring them forward. Yeah. And that's something I just directly wanted to ask you. As you both know, I was an LGBT editor at BuzzFeed News for years. And my stance then and now is that if someone, a reporter or an activist came to me with ample evidence that either someone was

Queer in the sense that's like, oh, they're in relationships. I can show, you know, like we have some kind of way of proving this. Or in the case of McNally, which is a little different, they're engaging content, right? That doesn't mean you're, that doesn't mean, you know, that's an identity. But the way they're interacting is opposing their politics and their politics are causing active harm. If we can substantiate those claims, report on it. That's where I am. How would you handle it in this situation though, Sam? I would be a little resistant to report on a politician's sexuality unless I were covering politics.

Right now I cover pop culture. So you wouldn't like break news on into it. But if I were still covering politics, I would take this to my editor and let them make the call. But I would for sure take it to them. But I also think that like this conversation about to out or not to out, it kind of misdirects responsibility. It feels very similar to me to

So the conversation we have around individuals watching their carbon footprint instead of making big corporations fix climate change. Oh, interesting. There are big players that could actually make change in Tennessee right away. There are corporations that rely on queer imagery and content to survive that could say, we're going to pull business out of this state. We're not going to work with these politicians. We're going to not give to these politicians. And instead of the onus being on them and

Instead of people picketing outside of Viacom or whoever else, right? Instead of that, we are asking independent journalists to out politicians on their own, right? I think that in all of this conversation about what Tennessee is doing to queer people and to drag queens—

We are not talking enough about what corporate interests can do to help solve this problem. And I don't want us to be too small-minded in how to fix these things. I would love a corporate boycott of Tennessee, and I think that would do more than outing.

I guess I would push back because isn't it a yes and? And I know that this isn't like LG, but well, I guess it is a queer issue as well, but reproductive health, right? Like the state of California, what they're doing with Walgreens right now. I mean, to me, it just seems like surely it's possible. Let's diversify our queer portfolio, right? To use that phrase. But that said, has outing ever changed what the GOP wants to do to gay people?

I mean, I would argue in those two examples. And so, yeah, maybe this isn't a question. Maybe it's changing. I would say in the 90s, we can look at Mark Foley, Aaron Schock, Pete Williams, Barbara Mikulski. I mean, these are all people who lost power, who were no longer able to stay in office. But it didn't make the GOP pro-gay. No.

No, but I don't think I don't think I don't think anyone is going to make some. So I think I think it's like part of is an issue of scale. Imagine right now, look at the U.S. Senate or the House. Like, look at how important George Santos, who by the you could almost say is kind of being outed. Look how fragile, for example, Republican control of the House is.

If, you know, three to four politicians on the Republican side were exposed and like, you know, they're good. I don't know. And I would just, just something I, something I'm trying to say is we have to also think about the context of Tennessee as someone that lived in Tennessee is that Tennessee very recently under Bill Lee became an entirely red state. Nashville is no longer blue. They have redlined the entire state. They have gerrymandered all the blue out.

of it. They're really desperate. My friends call me weekly, very upset. People are literally leaving the state because it's become so dire. My own mother left the state because it's becoming so dire. And I think we are at a point where you do need to hit these people where it hurts. If Lieutenant Governor McNally is queer and having a queer life privately and is also

introducing legislation that is really destroying families right now, we should be calling that out while also asking these corporations to do something real. And the reason why they're not doing anything is because they have no political power anymore due to the gerrymandering in Tennessee. Where, when you look at North Carolina in 2014, it was blue. It passed marriage before anyone else in the state. There was power on their side. But these corporations lean where the power's at, and that's because it's capitalism. So that's why I'm afraid of demanding too much out of capitalism when we can tell the truth about these people.

I think what I'm asking for is both things out these fools, if that needs to happen, but also take their money away and demand that their money be taken away. And that's where like HRC can do that. Like they need to be stepping in and like demanding all of this. I just think that like a lot of times on the left, we might get caught up with outing more than maybe we should because it's titillating. It's titillating. Right. And I like the drama of it, even as I know it's a tactic of politics, but

I want it to be part of a larger portfolio to fight this bullshit. Agreed. Yeah. I guess the one last thing I would say is outing. I guess it is titillating. But to me, I mean, and to kind of what Zach was pointing to, right? Like people are trying to introduce policy in states where like parents can lose custody of their children.

based on some of these anti-LGBT policies. It's so personal. It's so taking away people's not just bodily autonomy, but also their ability to show up for their children. And I think the thing about outing, one, maybe it can tip political scales and take away power from someone. But it's also, I think, important to underscore that it is a political strategy designed to be just as personal

as the public policy is against queer people. And that's no light thing. Y'all will notice in this conversation, we have not talked about pop stars. This is very different. We're talking about people with their hands on the lever of power. I just think that sometimes there's this sense that outing will do more than it actually can. People have been outing Lindsey Graham for 20 years. That's a good point. Has it changed Lindsey Graham? George Santos is still chilling in office. He's still there, right? So I just don't want us to think that this will save us. Do it.

But it's not going to save us. I don't think it will save us. The proof is in the pudding in that you look at every very famous homophobe, they were also probably gay. Roy Cohn, for instance, was secretly queer, doing a lot of bad stuff. The rest of the people... Girl, J. Edgar Hoover. J. Edgar Hoover was queer. All those people were queer. And that's why I'm like, yes, both of these things. Because...

Always, it's the same with hate crimes. Those are usually people dealing with an internal war inside their body. That's also with these legislators. They're dealing with their own internal hate and they're projecting it on everyone. So I'm like, expose them, pull them into therapy, pull them into something, also take away their money, do everything. But I do think we are getting to a really, really drastic moment in the culture because these bills are passing fast.

very fast. Well, and it's going to be easier and easier to out these politicians as there is just a larger public record on everyone in this era of social media. It's not going to stop. Secrecy is just not as possible. There's no more secrecy. Girl, I would love to know that thirst traps brought down the Republican party. That would be everything for me. Listen, a girl can dream. Well, we'll leave it there for now, but I will say, yeah, I mean, I think as our ongoing conversation between the three of us about, about,

This legislation, you know, as it continues to royal the country, I think thinking about activism, thinking about what we're willing to do and the trade-offs. I'm not going to say that any of these are easy decisions to make or easy solutions to achieve. Right. But I do think it's important for us to have conversations. This isn't a podcast where we're just going to talk about the bad things that are happening to us. Like it's weather. We're also going to talk about in a nuanced context,

thorny way things we're considering doing you know but until then political girls coming for us we just might come for you and I want y'all to understand that all right we'll take a quick break but don't go anywhere because it's time for recommendations and you are just giddy the tar reckoning oh my god oh my god it's time

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Compromise isn't so bad when you're holding a Mai Tai by a pool with an ocean view agreeing that yeah, this is better than finding sand in awkward places for three days. Book now in the hotels.com app and find your perfect somewhere. We are back. Before we end this episode of Vibe Check, we're going to do what we do every week. We're each going to share something that's helping us keep our vibes right today.

Should we just start with Saeed? I'm so ready. I want to hear. And what I want to say for everyone, let this be a lesson of you can be in deep community, friendship, love with people, and they can disagree with you. And it is a good thing. It is a productive thing. So anyway, I welcome Saeed's reading of Tar. Your vibe this week is hating on Tar. That's your vibe? Yep.

That's keeping his vibes. I think the release, you being able to voice aloud that you didn't like this very acclaimed thing is like, okay. So I guess, and I literally have a list and I'll try to get through it. I want to be clear. I don't like trolling. I really don't like being like, oh, my friends really like this movie. Oh, what an exciting opportunity to shit on something that brought them joy. That's not what it's about. I think I was genuinely thrown. Wow.

I'm watching this movie because I think I expect it to feel complicated, but I almost felt hurt by it. And so the first thing I will say is that I think it's really actually important that when you have that experience that you're engaging a piece of art and it could be a movie and like people you love, love it. But then you're watching it and you're just like.

Huh? It's actually weirdly lonely. It's really off-putting. You know? And so my first issue, we're talking about Tar by Todd Field, to be very clear. This is full of spoilers, so, like, pause this and then come back later. I think it's very pretentious. And I...

And in retrospect, I should have listened to how I felt during the film's first 10 minutes, the New Yorker Festival. That was my favorite scene. I was like, girl, it's time to go. That was my favorite scene. It was so pretentious. And so the first issue is that this is not a world that I actually want to be in. It's not a world that actually I'm very curious. This very white Anglo-Saxon European world and a story spearheaded by a character who literally worships

the good old boys club and believes that she can girl boss gaslight and gate keep her way into the good old boy cannon. That's already a hard sell for me. But I think over the course of the film, I just found myself increasingly disappointed because I wasn't getting the insight that I thought would make all of this possible. Something I would say difficult art does not mean it's good art.

I don't think it's a good movie. I think it's difficult. I think her performance is incredibly rigorous. But just as an example, and I don't think my issue is actually like with Cate Blanchett. I think a lot of it is Todd Field, the writer. And the only movie in my life where I've walked out of the movie theater was his film In the Bedroom. So I actually should have. Wow. I didn't know that. I was like, what else?

What has Todd Field done? He's done In the Bedroom and Little Children. I was like, oh, that probably should have told me there. But it seems really significant to me that the rigor that we praise in her performance in the writing, for example, Cate Blanchett learning German. Yeah.

Speaking it flawlessly. Learning how to conduct. Learning how to conduct. And I would say one of my favorite scenes is when she's like bullying the little girl. I'm Petra's father, right? Wow, that was good. But it was interesting that that rigor and that attention to detail only serves white elitism. The moment the

film moves to Southeast Asia, it's suddenly sloppy and lazy. I've been in Bangkok. So imagine my confusion when I'm like, wait, is this supposed to be the Philippines? Why are they showing us a Thai temple? And sure enough, I did some reading and Todd Field said he had hoped to shoot in the Philippines, but because of COVID restrictions, they couldn't actually go there. So they shot in Thailand and then just decided to mix up some shots. Really sloppy. I'm like, wait, so you're willing to have someone learn how to conduct and all the tech

Or learn German. But suddenly when Asian people are involved, they're just like this generalized backdrop that's supposed to be the final deafening blow. Like how embarrassing, how awful. And also I was like, I've been in Bangkok. You do not need to take those buses to get around. Right.

For example, it was just so, I was like, you know what I mean? It was just like the film just started to slowly but surely tell on itself. And then also, and I want to hear what y'all have to say, but the other thing is to, I feel that prestige films give themselves away when a lot of the praise is like, it's an exquisite character study. Because a character study is not a story.

It's not a movie. And I just felt, you know, the moment she hits her head from that point in the film on, like where she thinks she sees the dog and hits her, like it just felt like the writing, the storytelling collapsed. And then suddenly everything caught up with me. Where is the insight about queerness? I don't see it. I wasn't impressed. And where's the insight about power? I don't see it. For me, I love the film because it asks the viewer a central question.

Do you still hate all the Me Too nasty men if they're cool and sexy and hot and maybe a woman? And I think it was asking me as a viewer to actually consider whether or not in some cases I might be on the side of a really bad man or a really bad woman. If their charisma is there. Yes. I think I leave that film and I know that Lydia Tarr is a villain.

But I love her. And I'm obsessed with her. And it makes me, for me, the central question of this film is like, are you really, really convicted about canceling all these horrible men? Or would you like them if they were cool? Right? And so that alone works for me. And then after that, it's just Cate Blanchett being great.

But I was willing to allow a lot for this film because when I watched it the second time, I saw even more things. This movie is also about a haunting. I like the haunting, the kind of ghostliness of what's her name, Krista? Yes, and you see the ghost on a second viewing. You see the ghost more on the second viewing. So I was okay just because of what I felt like it made me ask of myself. And whatever shortcomings in plot...

I just left that movie thinking about my place in the world after watching it. And I love that. I would agree a lot with that. And Sam and I have talked a lot about the ghost part of it. I love a ghost story. Is she even alive is a question you can ask. But I do hear your note so loud and clear about how they treat race and people of color when it gets there. It is very rushed. It falls apart. And really the whole film is about race, right? I mean, well before we get to Asia, I mean, that's really like the canon, the classic. It's about whiteness. Her really important scene in the Juilliard classroom. I mean, that really is...

whiteness, I felt. Whiteness not being challenged because the scenes with the kids where she's being challenged, she's just like, how dare you? How dare you come for this power? Especially because she, I mean, they begin with saying she's an EGOT. Like she is the supreme and top. And I think probably for me where I found the Cate Blanchett role. So I love her. I just have to say, I just, I've,

I'm unapologetic about it. There's no way I wouldn't have watched it if it wasn't Cate Blanchett. Yeah, only she could have done this. But I also just know so many people I've met in my life, my career in the arts that are this person that are so awful. And I felt, to Sam's point, I was seeing some of them stripped bare a bit, but I know it hasn't been landing that way. As we've talked about, a lot of people in the arts aren't seeing the film how maybe we want to see it and it's only enabling some of them in some way. So I think the film hasn't like packed

the punch that it was hoping to because Todd Fields didn't write it as well as it could have and Cate Blanchett did as much as she could to like scaffold it. Can we talk about that? And again, I go back to the writing. I hated the film. Is it a bad film? No. Is it a good film? Also no. To me, it doesn't pack the punch because by the time we get to all the allegations and stuff stacking up because it's so limited to Lydia's off-kilter

delusional, lacking self-awareness. Like we don't actually find out what the allegations are. We don't actually get to see the evidence. Even when she rushes the stage, it's kind of like, it's almost dreamlike. It's not from, so it's just, you're suddenly like, no, this is actually when we do kind of need to know what's going on. Because one question I was like, this young woman committed suicide. You had a dicey. Why is there a deposition? I need you to connect that dot for me. It's like the vibes

turn into fumes by the end. I think it was really intentional to not, we never see the woman's face. Right. We never know all about the allegations. Just the back of her head a couple of times and stuff. For me, it's more about how villains never think they're villains. Mm-hmm.

She never thought she was a villain. She sure doesn't. And you find yourself rooting for a villain. So, no. For those central questions alone, I like it because it makes me ask these questions, right? And like some movies try to give you answers. Some movies try to give you questions. I think this movie wanted to give us a bunch of motherfucking questions. Yeah. I don't know. And what I love, and I know we're going to move to our other recs, is that, Saeed, thank you so much for sharing this because something I believe deeply as an

editor and I've worked with so many editors in my life where they have told me I don't like something and they just stop there and I don't like it. They don't want to dive into the depths of that unliking something intelligently or like in a curiosity and you did that. Like you like studied and came back. And I love that because I think more people like if you're having that type of reaction, you're

like check in. Why? Where's it coming from? Where's it leading you? What can you learn from that? So I just, I love it. I also think that it's, it's good to fight over shit. People don't fight over shit enough. It's good to have an intellectual debate about a thing. Yeah. Anyway. Woo!

I feel better. Yeah. I'm glad you do. That was great. Zach, what are you recommending this week? I'm going to recommend a really beautiful, small, quiet show called Starstruck on HBO. It came out a few years ago on BBC. When I was traveling to Europe, where I eventually got to sit next to Cate Blanchett and, you know,

have that moment in Berlin. I tweeted out to everyone asking what are some TV recs and so many people said the show Star Trek. I'd never heard of it and I watched it. It's two seasons, each episode's 20 minutes. It's about a woman who's working at a movie theater and she goes home with an actor who's really famous and doesn't know he's famous and it's about their affair and their love. They fall in love and it's about their relationship. So it's like Notting Hill with Hugh Grant and Julia Roberts. I love Notting Hill. Episodic and fantastic.

funny and smart and witty. So definitely watch it. It's great. Okay. Sweet, sweet. My recommendation is an album I've loved for years that has recently just come back to me and I'm loving it all over again. It's by this British Indian R&B artist named Jai Paul.

So Jai Paul was like blending sounds of India with like R&B and like heavy drum and bass. It was amazing stuff. And early on when he had just released like one or two singles, he had been sampled by Beyonce and by Drake and he was going to be the next big thing.

Before he was going to release his first full-length album, his brother leaked it. And it was only online for like a day or two, and then it was gone for years. Wait, his brother leaked it? His brother leaked it. And we don't know if that was planned or not, but the brother leaked it. But for years, you could only find snippets of this album on Vimeo. But super fans were committed to keeping as much of it alive as they could.

A few years ago, he finally put it on Spotify, and it's still one of the best R&B albums I've heard in the last 15 years. This album is amazing from start to finish. There's a song on there called All Night that is one of the sexiest things you'll ever hear in your life. He's got the bangers. It feels like dubstep and Prince and 90s R&B and Bollywood in a blender. Yeah.

And it comes out and it's just beautiful. I cannot recommend this album enough. If you like music and you've liked my picks on music before, trust me when I say you need to go listen right now to Jai Paul's album, Leak 0413. Wow. I'm slowly but surely building a playlist on your song recommendations because they tend to complement one

Yeah, we should get you into a DJ class. I would do it. I would take a DJ class. And also, in the meantime, I will share a playlist for Vibe Check listeners with some R&B stuff that I'm feeling right now. Love. Can't wait to listen. All right, listeners, tell us what you're feeling, what you're recommending. I also want to hear your thoughts on the Oscars. We didn't talk about the ceremony itself. I thought it was fine, but let me know what you thought about it. And let me know how we avenge Angela Bassett. It ain't right, cannot stand. That's for next week. That's for next week.

Thank you for tuning in to this week's episode of Vibe Check. If you love the show and want to support us, please make sure to follow the show on your favorite podcast, listening platform, and tell a friend or two. Huge thank you to our producer, Chantel Holder, who has been telling us for the last half hour to wrap

this shit up. Sorry. We love you, Chantel. Thanks to our engineer, Brendan Burns. Thanks to Marcus Holm for our theme music and sound design. Special thanks to our executive producers, Nora Ritchie at Stitcher and Brandon Sharp from Agenda Management and Production. And as always, we want to hear from you and we love, love, love hearing from you. So don't forget, you can email us at fivecheckatstitcher.com and keep in touch with us on Instagram at at Zach Staff, at The Ferocity and at Sam Sanders. Use the hashtag fivecheckpod and use it on Twitter. I check it.

like a lot and engage with things I'm not even tagged in because I just like seeing what y'all are saying so thank you for that and with that that's our show y'all have a great week and we'll see you next Wednesday justice for Lydia Tarr

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