I Thought Hell Was Hot, but It’s Wet
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Hello, ladies. Hello, hello, hello. Hi. Hello. I'm in Waterworld. And this movie is a flop. Okay. From wet and wild Los Angeles, I'm Sam Sanders. I'm Saeed Jones. And I'm fellow wet versus ex-Safford. And you are listening to Vibe Check. Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo!

This week, we're talking about fashion stylist Law Roach's interview with The Cut, specifically with the amazing Lindsay Peoples, and the new Amazon Prime show Swarm, which I'm sure you have been hearing all about. We're going to get into it deep. But before that, I want to check in with my sister, specifically Sam, who's across the lake that is now called Los Angeles for me. My spirit is broken. Oh, no, not that.

This weather really affects my mood, and it's raining again in Los Angeles. I woke up to rain. I went to sleep last night to rain, and the news this morning said that we are experiencing our 12th

atmospheric river of the season. Oh, not another atmospheric river. That was like, what, a month or so ago? I thought y'all were in the clear. Damn. And it's been pretty wet since Christmas. And there'll be little peaks of sunshine. But I am tired. I am buked. I am scorned. It's in the arc. And wait, let me turn to Zach with this. Because I feel like, you know, you Southern California girls, it's kind of hard to read...

I'm like, okay, is it raining bad for y'all? Or would I also be like, this is horrible? You know what I mean? What's the scale? Let me explain it to you this way. I have a great view in front of me from my house. I live in a higher rise. And the rain is going sideways, which doesn't happen in LA. There we go. And that's not normal. And we're over it. And someone tweeted the other day something to the effect of, we sold our souls to the devil to live here with no rain. Not this fake Seattle simulation. Because what's the point?

What's the point of being in that rancid demon hole of a region? So I would snap. Okay, that's what I wanted to know. Not that I doubted you, Sam. Not that I doubted you, but I needed some context. Just to give you some context, I only wash my car when it's been sunny for a few days, if not longer. I haven't washed my car since Christmas.

Because just when you think it's done, the rain comes back. Same. And what's so annoying about rain in LA is that rain is the great revealer of how toxic this place is because the rain itself has so much pollution in it. So your car isn't clean from water. It's got this weird residue on it and things all over it because it rained. So it's just really, it's not great. It's kind of like New York and snow where snow gets dirty. Here, our rain is dirty. And also like- This is not fun.

The social fabric of Los Angeles starts to gradually melt down as it rains longer and longer. People don't go anywhere. Let me tell you, I have the best example. This weekend, a dear friend of mine was his birthday. He lives in a house, a house where we all can fit. He sent a note to everyone saying, hey, everyone, I know it's raining. Let's reschedule for next week.

We were indoor. People will cancel indoor activities because it's raining. You don't have the mental or physical architecture to deal with this. Sure don't. Okay. Sure don't. I mean, look, dreary weather, however it manifests, can actually really do a number on you. Oh, listen. I'm hoping for some blue skies for you soon.

Zach, how are you? I'm doing good. I'm doing pretty good. I'm about to be back on the road again. So it's my last day in LA. And I have to fly through this. I have to go to DC and New York. I'm going to a wedding, which I'm very excited about for a dear friend. What I'm really excited about though, is that I have recently taken the plunge into the chat GBT world. Oh, here you go again.

Let me tell you, it is a wild, wild quest out there. And I could do a whole episode by myself on this. Well, you sent some to us, right? Can we pull up the poem? You had to write a poem for me. I was so mad. Zach was like, oh, ChatBT. And I said, Zach, let me tell you something right here, right now. Do not send me a ChatBT version of a Saeed Jones poem. Don't think it's cute. I don't think it's funny. I don't think it's spicy. Whatever you're thinking, don't do it.

I had chat GPT write a poem in the style of Nicki Minaj about Saeed Jones. So let me read the first kind of lines. So bad. Uh-huh, yo, it's Nicki Minaj. And I'm here to say, let me tell you about a man who's slaying it today. He's got the skills. He's got the rhymes. He's a poet and a writer, and he's doing just fine. His name is Saeed Jones, and he's making waves. He's got a way with words that nobody can replicate. He tells the stories of the marginalized, and he does it in a way that's real and wise. Oh, my God.

And then it goes on. I like mine. Let's just go ahead and pull it. Let's do the Sam's one real quick. For context for everyone so they know how this works, AI pulls from the internet and everything has been pre-programmed with. So because the three of us have so much work on the internet, it's able to

harness our written words and recreate our voices kind of. So here is Sam Sanders giving you ChatGPT, Sam Sanders. Yes, a poem in the voice of Sam Sanders from ChatGPT. I am Sam Sanders and I've got a story to tell. A tale of life's ups and downs and how I've learned to excel. Born in the South with a heart full of soul, I chase my dreams and never let go.

My voice is my power. My words are my might. I use them to fight for what's good and what's right. From politics to culture, I've got it all covered. My passion for storytelling has never been smothered. I don't get migraines, but I feel like AI might give me one. It's

It's just gold. It's kind of the worst version of yourself. It's so bad. It's the most basic. It's so bad. Anyway, that's where I've been hiding at night is in the chat GBT land, just playing around. You don't feel like it's going to be the end of the world?

Oh, girl, yeah, I'm on the side of that. I think the data is 50% of people working on AI think that there is a 10% chance it will end the world. And listen, climate change is already at the breaking point already. We just got that report this week. Like, girl, it's over. Let's just have a keepy. I mean, my thing about, because, you know, those poems are,

They're so bad. But it's learning. I mean, that's the entire point of this is that it's machine learning. And I'm assuming it's like, let's try this again in a few months and maybe it's better. However you want to define that. It's pretty eerie. Anyway, while I'm over here playing with the end of the world site, how are you doing in Columbus, Ohio? I am doing cute. And let me tell you why. I really,

I am going to savor every opportunity I can find for a reset. Okay. This Monday was the first day of spring, which also happens to be the Persian New Year. And it was, you know, lovely to celebrate like Persian New Year and send cute texts to my boyfriend. But also I realized, you know, I love...

New Year's Eve, New Year's Day as an opportunity to reflect and celebrate and all that. And I also love the Lunar New Year, which comes like a month or so later when it's like, you know what?

Actually, let's try that one more time. And then here we are in March with a third opportunity. I don't know. I like the idea of embracing these holidays as an opportunity to go, nope, you can get it right again this time. And so what I tried to do yesterday to celebrate, unfortunately, the weather here was cooperating. I tried to have a simple but perfect day. Huh.

You know, to kind of try to set the tone for my new, new, new year. And it was really nice. I feel good. Give me a little tidbit into your simple, perfect day. What's one thing that's a part of that day? One thing is I go to my neighborhood bookstore here in Columbus, buy a book that I wasn't looking for. And then I like to go to either a nearby bar or restaurant.

like cafe and sit and read it for a while. Just, yeah, it almost feels like stepping out of time, stepping out of my schedule for a moment and just kind of having that. And it was lovely. I got a book. It's going to be my recommendation, but yeah, I just love that. There's nothing better than like just in the moment. This is so romantic. I love it. So I did that to kick off my Persian new year in the hopes that that's kind of setting the tone for the rest of the year.

I love it. Well, before we get into this week's episode, we want to thank all of you who have sent us fan mail and reached out to us on social media. We love hearing from you all, so keep it coming at vibecheckatstitcher.com. And as always, keep tweeting us. It's very, very fun to see the tweets. So with that being said, is it time for us to jump in here? It is, but before we do that, I just found a leak in this garage from this goddamn rain. Oh, I'm about to bite somebody. Damn, the rain is really hot for you. Home ownership.

So last week, famed fashion stylist Law Roach, known for his work with celebrities like Zendaya, Anya Taylor-Joy, Anne Hathaway, Kerry Washington, among many, many others. And when I say known for his work, I think Zendaya, who he's been working with for over a decade now, is an excellent example where it's like, it's not just a dress.

It's a moment. I think about this a lot. I remember when the fashion designer, Alexander McQueen, died. And I was with a friend and I was devastated. And a friend of mine who was a poet, so maybe I expected them to come at it with a different kind of empathy. But I remember my friend just had no sympathy. He was like, why do you care about this? It's just dresses. It's just dresses, he said. I was like, it's not just dresses.

Style is about art, is about creativity, it's about beauty. I think it's wearable art. And I think Law Roach's collaborations, especially with someone like Zendaya, where he's been working with her really for the bulk of her career this last decade, it's really important, right? It creates an occasion and it lights something up. And more importantly, it brings joy. I love seeing the way when Zendaya steps on the red carpet and she hits that...

That pose, yes, she looks good. Yes, she looks fabulous. But to see the celebration that answers it, it's a delight. Is that fair? And it's also storytelling. I mean, fashion is storytelling. And Zendaya and LawRetro's collaboration was about her breaking free of the Disney storyline of her life and becoming herself more powerful. And that's what fashion can do for all of us. It can help you own the story you're telling about yourself. And it's part of these...

Like, Zendaya is not the Zendaya that we know on Euphoria without fashion taking her to that next level. And so, like, you think it's not tied to the work. It's tied to the work. It is part of their whole persona, you know? Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, with all this in mind, I mean, you know, Law Roach,

peak of his career, just getting going. He's only in his early 40s, you know, running on all cylinders right after the Oscars, which obviously is a major fashion event and ahead of the upcoming Met Gala, which we will be discussing in May. LaRoche took to Instagram and surprise, announced a retirement. Yeah.

And like announced it very cryptically. What did Zla say? It was like, I'm tired of the games or whatever, bye. I'm tired of the games. My cup is basically dry and depleted. Yeah. And it happened, I mean, for context to the announcement, it was right after the Oscars, which is like kind of the pinnacle.

of when you're styling A-listers, which is where his gripe has kind of landed is, you know, I've had access to style the biggest stars after the Vanity Fair Oscar party. I'm done. And the industry has really shaken me too much. And I got to get out of here. Right. And so, you know, we're into fashion, but also I think we're really into opportunities to think about

power, to think about transformation, and also just to think about what it means to navigate a career. And Law is a really interesting cultural figure to talk about all of these things. Yeah, I think we'll get to this soon. But what I like in this whole story is that eventually, Law Roach said everything. He talked about the inner workings of this industry. And you really rarely hear how fashion truly works.

He went there and it was very revealing. Yeah, absolutely. So we were furiously texting each other back and forth, kind of speculating, trying to wonder. TikTok has been ablaze with trying to figure out what's going on. But thankfully, Law sat down with the editor-in-chief of The Cut magazine for a really far-reaching, introspective, candid,

conversation about his retirement, how he got there, what he thinks, maybe what comes next. And I think it became clear for the three of us that, well, one, this isn't just a fashion story, as I said, that this is very much about race, gender, the relationship, I would argue, between gay men, gay black men in particular, and women.

white women in creative industries, in this case fashion and the realm of celebrity. It's about burnout, it's about mental health, it's even about suffering. And wow, that's a lot to get to, but I figured it was worth our time, right? It's definitely worth our time. 100%. I started reading this thing and I was like, all right, of the three of us, I know fashion the least.

And so I opened the article not thinking that I would really relate to all of the things that were in this piece. But...

All of it hit for me. He went in depth on things that affect people working in all kinds of industries, about power and struggle and suffering. There was one quote, Saeed, that we both have talked about from this interview. And I wanted us to start there. And I love that you pointed out, you know, I'm not really into the fashion. I don't know all the insider, da-da-da-da. That's not the conversation we're about to have.

If you want to read the full interview, please do. But instead, I love that you were like, no, we were connecting to it just as people. It's just people. Yeah. And so the three of us identified some different quotes or moments in the interview because it's pretty extensive that lit up.

ideas, memories, resonances for the three of us. And Sam, I was looking at the notes and I saw you highlighted something early in the interview about suffering and success that spoke to me as well. So do you want to start there? Yeah. So Law is talking to Lindsay Peoples and he says, quote, I think as black people in this country, it's embedded in us to suffer, right? We feel like to be successful, we have to suffer. You suffer through things to get to the other side.

You suffer through earth to get to heaven. I think that's just in our DNA as African-Americans. And I've been suffering for years and I woke up and I made that post because I felt like I couldn't breathe and me releasing that and I took a deep breath.

That was really powerful to me. And that's something that I think a lot of people have felt in the last few years. Our jobs have felt like too much. Our careers have felt like too much. And we're suffering and it's hard, but we think it's supposed to be like that. And law is saying to the fashion world, I'm taking a breath. I'm stopping.

That's a thing all kinds of people have been doing the last few years across all industries. So it just really hit for me. It really hit for me, especially as Black people. Yeah, I re-listened this morning. Because that's right. We should say to people, you can read the interview, but it's also like a tape. So you can watch it as well. You can watch it. You can listen to a podcast. So I was listening to the podcast version. I watched the tape and I listened to the podcast as I was going to my car to get things. And I was walking in the rain, which felt very...

kind of symbolic, going through it. And this moment of him talking about suffering just took me back to so many moments in my life where I thought, you know, I have to work on my birthday when I specifically said I'm not working because, you know, if I don't say yes to this opportunity, then I will never have another. Or I have to go do this story that is really hurtful for me or knock on this door that is a member of the KKK, which I've had to do before because I have to prove myself as a Black person in media

And I think all of us could probably point to moments in our lives where we stress ourselves so thin or put ourselves in danger and put ourselves in real pain just to show that we are worthy of a job, of an opportunity. And it's kind of shocking when you hear Lal talk about it and you think about it in your own life.

of the fact that a lot of people, especially who aren't black, don't ever have to do that. They don't have to go through that pain to get what they got. And that's really shocking when you realize that. It's really heartbreaking too, and law's going through that. I guess this is a version of W.E.B. Du Bois as well as parallel to his idea of double consciousness. It's a little different.

In that, unlike white people who are striving and working, because we all work, we all struggle. I do think black people, black people in this country in particular, we have this sense of not only are we supposed to work hard, but the work, it's supposed to be about something bigger than us. So I'm not just a writer. I'm not just having my own breakthroughs as Saeed Jones, an individual, but

On some level at all times, I'm aware that I'm getting opportunities that my predecessors, that my black queer elders, for example, who didn't survive the 1980s, 1990s. I'm quickly passing, for example, the age at which Essex Pimple, for example, died. And so it's like, what does it mean as you're doing that work and you're striving that you're also kind of thinking of the bigger picture, which yes, can be

inspiring and I'm grateful for this sense of awareness that we are connected to one another. My win is also Zach and Sam's win. However, when the work is exhausting you, when it's taking more than it's giving, when your cup is empty, as law says, it's something else. Well, and then what law pointed out in this interview with the cut

It's this double pressure you feel as a black person in a creative field, as a black person in a mostly white space. You have the burden of just being black and you feel like you want to accomplish on behalf of black people. And then you have these industries and these gatekeepers saying to you, well, you should be grateful to be here. Just you being here is enough. So he also says in this interview that.

He said that the industry would basically tell him in so many words, you should be grateful because you get to dress the white girl. And then he says back, I'm supposed to be grateful? No, she should be grateful to me because I'm changing her life. But that is a thing that I've heard over the course of my career. Really nice, dulcet tones telling me to be grateful for the chance to do XYZ.

That stuff gets to you over time. And I know you have both heard it too. Oh my God. Yes. This conversation and this topic, I think why it really struck a chord with us is that it kind of ties back to our own kind of history of the show and that we began to do

radio or audio together because Andre Leon Talley passed away. And Andre Leon Talley was fashion editor at Vogue. He worked under Anna Wintour. He was the highest ranking person in fashion that is black. Now these days, it is Edward Enningful at British Folk, Lindsay Peoples Wagner at The Cut, and Laurel Roach. I would say those are kind of like the royals of fashion. And I would add Naomi Campbell as the model. And Naomi Campbell, yes, Naomi Campbell as a model. So model, stylist, editors.

And, you know, they've all slowly come out and just talked about all the severe racism and severe issues of being the only one. And when we all got together and talked about it, talked about Andre's life and what it felt like for us, you know, that went kind of viral and it led to Vibe Check happening. And I just think that it's because...

I've had moments in my life when I became the editor-in-chief of The Advocate. It was the first time a black person had ever run a queer magazine at that level, which is wild because when the news broke, people were just so overwhelmed with praise. But I was overwhelmed with sadness because these magazines had existed for over 50 years and yet no one of color had run them. And that's kind of the isolation that law is getting here is that you have this moment where you reach the top, you're the Beyonce of styling.

which he is. And everyone's telling you to keep being grateful, keep fighting harder. And you're like, wait, these other girls don't have to even think about this. They get to just be famous. They just get to be Julia Roberts. They just get to be, you know, Nicole Kidman. And we have to be our histories, our ancestors, the people that didn't get here. And it just is, it's a lot and it breaks you. And it's hard to sustain after a while.

Relatedly, I wanted to highlight something else Law said because it's race, it's gender, it's also class. Law grew up in Chicago, the oldest of several siblings. He said that his mom, when he was, I think, 13 or 14, took the other kids and just abandoned him.

He said, you're on your own. He said, you're just going to have to learn how to figure out on your own. He had to steal food to make it, right? Exactly. And he did. And that left to kind of thrifting and vintage clothes. And then, you know, it took him to the world of styling. So he's truly made himself. And he said something about nepotism that unexpectedly hit me hard.

He said, I kept using everything I learned on the streets to figure it out. But nepotism, especially on the Hollywood side, it's so strong because these white female stylists, they grew up with these white publicists and agents. And they went to summer camp. And you know what I mean? It's this network I was able to penetrate.

And so, yes, this is obviously about race and whiteness, but it occurred to me that in the striving, what resonated with me, it's hard to even say. I realize I'm like hesitating. It makes me sad, but I...

There's a moment when you've succeeded, and I really identify as working class kid, state schools, single mom, and I've made it into some really incredible spaces and earned my keep. I do not feel like an imposter. But I've had moments when I've been shaken.

when I've realized is that the people who are now my peers have all known each other much longer. Oh, yeah. Or like I'm surrounded by like Ivy League people. You know what I mean? People who have like these different, and part of it's class, part of it's networks and everything. And it's not necessarily just white people. You know what I mean? Where I'm just like that moment where you feel like,

This is a little dramatic, but it's almost like you're like, oh shit, I'm swimming with the sharks. Like that sense of, oh gosh. And later at one point in the interview, he says like, I just realized I felt like no one was protecting me. Yeah.

And I think that is one of the issues of class mobility that we don't talk about. And I think, Zach, you even said it yesterday, like Andre DeShields is like, you climb a mountain and you're rewarded at the top. There's another mountain. Yeah, that to make it, to transition, you know, the American dream, what we don't talk about is what it means to then make it to that next space, is that you're by yourself. Yes. Well, and then just hearing you talk about

how if you don't come from privilege, you walk into these systems that are already well-established and these networks that are already well-established. And what Law points out in this interview is that if you are allowed access to those systems and networks, you can never critique the system, right? And so in the interview, he talks about how he's doing some work for some fashion house and

And they just don't give him credit and they don't pay him. And the expectation is, well, you should be honored to have been a part of this network, to be part of this elite club. And he calls it out publicly and he's the villain. But it's like, who's the villain here? Him for saying this thing was bad or these systems for doing this effed up stuff?

And so what I found so remarkable was that he spoke with such candor about that kind of inequity, about that kind of privileged network that is corrupt because it can be. This happens in every sector. It happens in finance and education and politics and government. And a lot of times we don't feel like we can speak on it because we want to rise through these systems. Right. So to see him speak to that.

It's really, really brave. You know, he's confident that there's something else for him and that he's going to keep working. But just being this candid period, I want to salute Law and say that was very brave. Yeah, absolutely, Sam. And thank you, Zach, for reminding us of Andre Leon Talley. What a privilege.

the three of us to be able to think through and learn alongside someone like Law Roach while he's still with us. He's still alive, he's still vibrant and in absolute control of his talents and his gifts. And I have gotten too used to

to talking about talented Black queer people in past tense. Oh, yeah. And so, yeah, I'm honored, both of the bravery and the candor of his interview, but also just grateful that we're getting to the point that we can see people kind of mid-career as Black queer culture makers kind of making these important, often life-saving decisions for themselves. Oh, yeah. I just imagine...

gosh, what if Andre Leon Talley would have been able to have this moment 10, 15 years ago? You know, we really never saw him be able to get free. He talked up until his death how he had no friends, he had no love, his life was just the work.

And La Roche was saying the same things in this conversation, but I'm so happy he's saying at this point, I'm breaking free. Good for him. Yeah. And something he did say in the interview that really struck me to connect to Sam's point is he said, I don't have a boyfriend. I don't have a dog. I just have my job. I just do this work. And he's taking a moment to kind of figure out how to live.

And that's all we as the host of Vibe Chef want you all to do every week is to learn to live outside of this identity that is your work, that is your pain, that is your trauma. How do you find a life in all of this mess that's called the world? And when you see someone like LawRudge who has everything stacked against him, his trauma should have him locked in the shop forever. This man didn't eat for a long time.

But he's saying, no, I think there's something bigger out there. I think all of us can be inspired by that moment because there's something bigger for all of you. And it's for everybody. You can eat somewhere else, do something else. Your job is not your life. Your life is your life. Your job is a transaction. That's it. Well, I salute you, Lala Roach. I think all three of us do. And we're grateful that you're taking care of yourself. You know, to think of the big picture is that we do also learn from each other. We do also watch each other and go, you know what?

It really means a lot to see someone like Law Roach say, I ain't going out like that. There you go. Y'all ain't going to do me. And then the three of us go, oh, wait a minute. He's right. What can I learn from this? Yes, he is right. All right. Yeah, that's powerful. Well, it's time for us to take a quick break. Stay tuned. We'll be right back. We're going to talk about Swarm. Oh, man. Buzz buzz. Buzz buzz.

This message is brought to you by McDonald's. Did you know only 7.3% of American fashion designers are Black? Well, McDonald's 2024 Change Leaders Program is ready to change the face of fashion. The innovative program awards a monetary grant to five emerging Black American designers and pairs each with an industry professional to help them elevate their brands.

I know specifically and distinctly how McDonald's can support and empower not just black Gen Z, but black people. My first job was McDonald's. I learned a lot there about customer service and how to relate to people. I still love that place and go there very often. Look out for the change of fashion designers and mentors.

at events like the BET Awards and the Essence Festival of Culture. And follow the journey of the 2024 McDonald's Change Leaders on their Instagram page, We Are Golden.

Here's an HIV pill dilemma for you. Picture the scene. There's a rooftop sunset with fairy lights and you're vibing with friends. You remember you've got to take your HIV pill. Important, yes, but the fun moment is gone. Did you know there's a long-acting treatment option available? So catch the sunset and keep the party going. Visit pillfreehiv.com today to learn more. Brought to you by Veve Healthcare.

We are back. You're listening to Vibe Check, and I'm going to try to keep my sanity because, as you heard earlier, there's a leak in my garage where I record, and I hear it. And Lord help, we're going to get through. We're going to get through. Anyhoo.

It is time to talk about another thing that's haunting me. A new TV show out on Amazon Prime Video that has taken over my life personally, professionally. I cannot stop thinking and talking about this show at home, at work. You called me last night. I sure did. You usually do. The three of us are constantly texting. Yeah. And then I finished watching the show. I texted some thoughts, and I was doing something with Cesar. And then I was like, is my phone ringing? Very millennial. I was like, is my phone ringing?

Excuse me. He said, I'm calling you. And I was shocked. I was like, I don't know. Sam was like, we've got to talk about the finale. This show, if you haven't figured it out yet, it's called Swarm. Donald Glover had the idea for it. Janine Neighbors is the showrunner and head writer. I've interviewed her for my other job over at Vulture. Check out the podcast into it for our chat. But this is the first serial killer show that I've liked. Yeah.

The serial killer in Swarm is a black woman from the South played by Dominique Fishback. I've never seen a black woman serial killer on screen. And she's killing out of allegiance to a pop star in the show named Nyjah. And Nyjah has an uncanny resemblance to Beyonce.

It's Beyonce. She's Beyonce. Like it is Beyonce through and through, even with the husband, the twins, everything. The surprise album drop, all of it. There's the elevator incident. The husband puts out an album similar to Jay-Z's album. All of it.

And so this show is only seven episodes, but it is a commentary on stand culture and social media. And for me, the biggest thing is asking you as a viewer is what do we expect to see a black woman get to do on screen?

There are layers to this show, and there's layers to the discourse around this show. But before we get to that, I want to just ask the two of you, how'd you like it? Saeed, you finished it last night. I finished it last night. I was planning on initially just watching a couple of episodes, enough for us to kind of, you know, have a competent conversation, because I could tell you were fired up and ready to go. I was like, baby, this is like Elizabeth Warren talking about student loans. I haven't seen Sam this excited about student loans.

something in a minute. But yeah, I fell all in. It's not a perfect show, but it's damn good. And you're right. Part of it is, and I love that this comes into the show's own commentary. I don't love true crime. I tend not to really enjoy serial killer. This is typically not my genre.

But can I read a quote from your interview with Janine Neighbors? Yes. That I was like, oh, this is light. Maybe this is why I feel a little bit differently. Because I asked her, like, is this show too off-putting? The violence right from the start? Is it too much for viewers? Right. And Janine says, it's funny because I love the HBO show Barry. And that show doesn't hold the audience's hands when it comes to violence.

She continues, we're so used to seeing white men in film and TV do the craziest shit. White women too. As Americans, we're really comfortable watching white people go crazy because they have earned it in a lot of people's minds. Wow. Which is really interesting. And so it's like, we're gonna get into it. But I've talked about the representation trap. Mm-hmm.

And how I think that is doing a number on us and it's not really great. This is interesting because it's a flip on representation, right? It's like we deserve, and I know there's that famous tweet of like, black women deserve to get to be serial killers too. Yeah.

But it's a flip. It's like we deserve to see characters who are Black, but maybe we don't identify with it. Exactly. It doesn't have to be such a one-to-one relationship. And what I heard Janine saying in this interview, and it was so much fun. We talked for 90 minutes. The podcast intro is going to have probably 40 minutes. There's a longer transcript online at Vulture. But what I heard Janine talking about and really asking for as a Black creative is freedom of movement. Mm.

I want to be able to move as a creative into every space and nook and cranny the white guys get to move into. If they can be anything on a screen, I want to be allowed to be anything on the screen, even a black woman serial killer. I don't know. That's punk rock and I love it. Yeah.

That ties directly back to Law Roach and why he left his job because he was feeling boxed in and not allowed to just be creatively free without all the chains and the expectations of making decisions. And also the baggage of being given the opportunity to work with a big star and them saying, well, you owe us this. Where, you know,

Janine is also saying like, I don't need to explain why my main character is going crazy, why she's killing. Why can't we just have fun in this space? And that's where the show is really fun. It does suspend a reality we've gotten really used to with seeing Black women's representation in horror, especially. And it kind of reimagines that and changes it and

But something I love so much about it is, you know, it really proves this idea I think about a lot around pop music. You know, pop music is so popular because it's the soundtrack to all of our lives as we move through the world. You know, we aren't...

Britney Spears. We aren't Beyonce. But when we listen to those albums, we're going through our own heartbreaks, our own job losses, our own maybe murders. Who knows? And it kind of plays around you. And that's where that emotional connection is formed is that it becomes a soundtrack to your life. And for this protagonist, this music ties to her on a very guttural level and really moves her through the story. And I think it was a really dramatized version of what we all go through.

when we love it. I like that. Cause you're right. I mean, we kind of said this and maybe this is the theme that's beginning to emerge. So much of culture is a call and response, you know? So it's like Sam and site and Zach are reading a law roach interview. And all of a sudden we are responding to it. And now we're having our own conversation or you're right. It's like, you're going through a breakup and then lemonade drops. Oh,

And now you're listening to a song like Sorry, and you're using that song to move yourself to a different space, which can often be healthy, cathartic, healing. What's really fun and bold about the show, though, is the call and response is toxic. The call and response is lethal.

Yes, and the call and response is like based on some possibly true events. So besides being all about Beyonce, some of the events that you see in the show were things that actually happened or were rumored to have happened. So part of the plot is a super Beyonce fan dying the night of this

album release. That was actually a real thing that happened for a while. Black Twitter thought that a young woman had killed herself over lemonade. That actually happened. I did not know that. And Janine Nabors was like, that informed the show. Wow.

Yeah. I will say one of the, I won't say it's like a pleasure, but it is really interesting when you finish the show or finish an episode. It is interesting to start looking up the details and the news. Some of it's news, some of it's internet rumors, but just kind of see where all of this is coming from. Yes.

Even in the last episode, and I won't give it all away, the plot point of the last scene, that actually happens to Beyonce, the rush of the stage. I'll say that and leave it there. I did. I also forgot about the who bit Beyonce thing. I was like, that didn't happen. And then I had to look at it. I was like, oh, that was a whole thing. Yeah. And this is what I love about what I am calling the Atlanta diaspora scene.

You know, so Janine, she has worked on Watchmen, but she really was in there with the team that made Atlanta. And this show feels like a companion piece to Atlanta because that show was all about discussing blackness in relation to like events that we haven't even fully processed yet.

I remember there was an episode of Atlanta that was making a big point about Justin Bieber by having a character in an episode named Justin Bieber, but he was black. And the whole thing was asking us as viewers, would we ever have allowed Justin Bieber to get away with all that shit if he weren't white? Right? And so this is a show that is like poking us.

on things that we're currently experiencing. And I feel like Swarm does the same thing. I liked how provocative this show is. It is asking me as a viewer to question my role in stan culture, my role in fan culture. What kind of Beyonce fan am I? It is so close to home.

That is uncomfortable, but it keeps me thinking. I'm still asking myself questions. Well, Sam, I wanted to ask you specifically because you bring up sand culture so much. And my question is, why is it that sand culture has become so rife for cultural conversation and production? Because the Beatles arguably had just as crazy fans. You know, the Rolling Stones had crazy fans. Like fandom has always been around and these fans have always been acting up. But lately when we talk about fandom, we were having a different conversation and it's creating shows like

Yeah. Which is very interesting. Yeah, it's funny. I was talking about the Hailey Bieber, Selena Gomez feud, and then the Vanderpump Rules scandal. And the folks I interviewed about those two scandals, we basically came to the conclusion that like,

Fans get to leave paper trails now on the internet. If you're a fan of your favorite celebrity, you can make TikToks remixing video of them. You can tweet Storm Forever and post on Instagram. And there's almost this game that fans play with each other where they leave these trails and tidbits for other folks.

And like when my mother was a fan of the Beatles when she was a kid, she just bought the record. Right. Yeah. And now fandom is an immersive experience. And like now you perform fandom with a paper trail on the Internet. And that makes it right for discussion and for content. Yeah. Yeah.

There was one more thing I wanted to talk about because I know we want to talk about the internet of it all as well. But I felt like thinking of the call and response, particularly from the pilot, we're working hard not to spoil details. Yes, we are. Exciting ride, an odyssey really that Dre goes on. But I felt there was a call and response between this story and The Bluest Eye by Toni Morrison.

Think about everything we just said. We should get to be serial killers too. Toni Morrison famously said she wrote The Blue's Eye because it was a book she wanted to read and it wasn't on the shelves. You know what I mean? And again, it's a story about a black girl who's fallen through the cracks. In this case, it's Peekala, who her toxic wish is she wishes for blue eyes.

Right. Which is such a sad, tragic thing for a dark skinned black girl to want. Right. There's a quote early in the book where Piccolo kind of has a moment of anger that does something to her. And Toni Morrison writes, anger is better. There is a sense of being in anger, a reality and presence, an awareness of worth. It is a lovely surging.

And I was like, oh, that feels, you know, and there's a scene early on where Dre drops like a soda in a gas station store and then picks up a piece of glass. And she's just kind of fixating, even as she's cutting herself, something, a surging, something's happening. And it was really interesting then to see how this, it's a call and response, but it's not the same story because Piccolo in The Blue's Eye is kind of devoured by society, devoured by the world. And this is the story of a black girl who becomes a devourer.

And even consumption and literal eating is like a theme. So it was just really interesting to see like where they take that idea. And the show also, you know, what was so striking to me about this protagonist is it begs the question of if you don't have love in your life, where do you put all your pain when you go through it? And she has nowhere to put her pain. Like no one loves her. And in her mind, this star, Beyonce, has created a love bond with her. And the

That's what moves her through the story is trying to get closer to her, trying to do right by her, trying to do anything in the sake of love. So you do have compassion for this character. You're like, this is the only love you have in your life. So yeah, you should kill for it, I guess. Maybe. Juan, I want to remind everyone, and you've heard me say it already, watch this show. Please watch this show. Please watch it. And please tweet us about it. I feel like Dre, I'm like, who do I talk to?

Who do I talk to about my standards? But we can't leave this conversation without talking about the internet conversation about this show, which is very much about the internet. So I interviewed Janine Neighbors, the showrunner, for my show. And then I was able to spend some time with her and Dominique Fishback and Chloe Bailey at the premiere of the film at South by Southwest. And I interviewed them on stage after the premiere. And...

And one of the things that we consistently talked about, me and all of them, was like, are you prepared for the internet response to this show? It's about internet and about black Twitter. Black Twitter will have thoughts. Do you care? And they all kind of said, we don't.

which I appreciate. But I do want to ask both of you, how is the internet discourse around this show affected or not affected how you view? Because there's a lot of discourse. There's discourse about Chloe Bailey having a sex scene in the show. There's discourse about dark skinned

Black women and light-skinned Black women and who was white passing and even Halle Berry got roped in. There's, of course, the dialogue about everyone thinking that Donald Glover, again, hates Black women. It can be an overwhelming internet discourse around this show. Has it touched y'all at all?

I would say when I see these tweets, because it is what led me to finally watch the show. I just saw so many on Saturday. I was like, what are you guys going through? This is a lot. And the Halle Berry thing did send me over the edge. So there's an argument around Chloe Bailey having this role, being light-skinned, and that she's white-passing because she's light-skinned, which is very different. She's not passing. Neither is Halle Berry. None of it. Oh, my God. But that's the thing. So there's this argument that Chloe Bailey is white-passing.

and that she is like Halle Berry, that through these women having roles like this where they're hyper-sexualized, they are erasing opportunities for dark-skinned women. And also, these women aren't even Black. And I am just, after Halle Berry just gave Michelle Yeoh that Oscar the other day, I am confused at whoever thought Halle Berry was not

black. And she'll tell you she's black. She'll tell you. Yeah, she's like, I'm black. That's it. So that's one of the many conversations. But what I see is that people are having a very personal response to the show, which they should take to their text messages and their group chats and not to Twitter. So that's been my note. It drove me to go watch it and then go talk to you guys about it. I know we're talking about it on our show, but people should really dig into why they're so triggered by the show. The questions you're asking online,

So a lot of the mean tweets about the show that I've seen have basically been saying, Donald Glover hates black women. This is not good for black women. Black women this, black women that. And I got to say, as a person who is not a black woman, but who has interviewed 400

four black women involved in this show, a lot of the conversation feels like it denies the agency of those black women. Janine Nabors was a black woman in charge of the show. Dominique Fishback is a black woman who was the lead of this show and chose this role and talked to me about how hard she worked to do it. Chloe Bailey is in this thing. Malia Obama wrote for the show. And so I would hope that these conversations about whether or not this is good for black people acknowledge that

that black folks made it. And a lot of the things that I want to gripe about, I want to just kind of say that these black women got to have their time to make their thing. There's a black proverb, everybody wants to go to heaven, nobody wants to die. Okay.

Everybody wants more representation. Everyone wants more black shows. Everyone wants da-da-da-da-da-da-da. And then I'm like, well, then when black creatives are out here taking risks and doing things that are really interesting and bold, are we really creating a welcoming environment for those risks and for those ambitious takes? Yeah. I don't know. I think Twitter in particular has come a long way from the days of scandal and where it was like a really kind of communal sense of life to it. Where

Even like the BET Awards, it used to be really fun to live tweet those experiences. And there was a building and an enthusiasm that made you, it would take you to the work. It would take you to the show or the movie and you would want to. And now it feels like, it's like, yeah, I haven't even watched it and it's taking me out. I'm glad I watched it anyways.

anyway though. I'm really glad I watched Swarm anyway. Let Janine Neighbors be free. Let La Roche be free. The theme of this episode, babies, is freedom to freedom. Also, shit, having watched all the episodes of Swarm, y'all better leave Janine Neighbors alone. That lady has an imagination. I don't know if you... Don't start a fight you can't finish. There you go. Alright.

All right, listeners, check out Swarm. Check out the La Roche interview. We're going to take another quick break, but don't go anywhere. We'll be right back with recommendations to keep your vibe right. Net credit is here to say yes to a personal loan or line of credit when other lenders say no. Apply in minutes and get a decision as soon as the same day. If approved, applications are typically funded the next business day or sooner.

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All right, we are back. And before we end the show, we like to do our favorite thing, which is to share something that's keeping our vibes right or throwing us off this week. And to get us going, I want to throw it to Saeed Jones to hear about this book you mentioned earlier in the show that you're really vibing with. Yeah, my recommendation this week is The Hero of This Book by Elizabeth McCracken.

It is a novel that might be a memoir. Her mother passed away a few years ago, and Elizabeth McCracken in the book goes on a trip to London, I think, to kind of reflect.

But there's a delight in the way the character in the book is uncertain if she wants to write a memoir. Is she writing a memoir or is she writing a novel? And the freedom that you are given when you decide to fictionalize your story as opposed to say, and it's just, I don't know. Obviously grief and all of these themes and family, sure, sure, sure. But there's a light

to it. It's one of those books you just have to read it. But again, this is a great book to get a glass of wine and sit at a bar. I just wanted to read one little thing. Yes, I said, alas. And then she follows, alas was one of those things I said too often. A way of saying no while presenting myself as helpless. Yes.

She has a real gift for sentences. And I just love, again, like to me, there's something about finding a lovely hotel bar. Maybe you get a glass of wine, you have a pen in your book and the kind of book that has those lines, those moments that you want to underline. And that's where you just kind of, the world falls away. And I just, I just, I'm really enjoying this experience. I love that. I love it. But also a way to say no while presenting myself as helpless. I was like, oh shit.

Oh, shit. I do do that. TTT. Like, oh, gee. I guess I just don't know. I can't do that. All right. Well, Sam, what are you vibing with? Or what's not? Is it water? Is water really hurting you today? Come on. This is Avatar, the last waterbender over there. Come on now. I am. Come on, Legend of Korra. I'm about to go to Home Depot, get some plywood, and start building the ark.

Okay. The Ark. Okay. I almost said Moses. Is it Moses? Noah. Noah. Noah. Thank you. Damn. It was Noah. It was Noah. Moses part of the sea. Although Moses dealt with water too. Really into the water in the Old Testament. Oh my God. Wait. Was Moses a waterbender?

I'm sorry. I've been watching a lot of Avatar. You have been. I love that you were there and I was like, was Moses in the water sports? Which is why I'm going to share. Wait a minute. Was Moses one of the Avatars? I mean, we had the burning bush. He parted the Red Sea. Moses was out here. Anywho, anywho, my recommendation. I think I mentioned before that I've started watching the Real Housewives of Potomac series.

It's consumed my life. I'm almost done with season three now. And I just- How many seasons are there? Six or seven. Oh, wow. Did that just-

I feel like it just started a couple of years ago. Wow. It's my recommendation. It's the perfect chaos to have on in the background. I kind of fall asleep to it some nights now. It's so good. That's an interesting show to fall asleep to. I know. That's a lot of chaos to sleep with. To just tell listeners how messy this show is, two of the lighter skinned black women in the show call themselves the green eyed bandits. Not that. They go around starting mess.

What is going on? And then I just watched an episode where I think it's Ashley, this young, beautiful, light-skinned black woman who's married to a much older, sketchy Australian dude. Well, not anymore. Yes, not anymore. But in this part of the show, to prove her allegiance to him, we see the scene in which she promises to re-sign the prenup.

to have the prenup go from three years to five years to prove that she's in it for the right reasons. It's wild. Let me just tell you this. If you were interested in what we're talking about, screw seasons one through six. Go to seven. Start there. You'll catch up really fast. And this last season is pure insanity. Pure, like Ashley does even more crazy stuff to

to prove her worth to this man that she's now divorcing. Wow. You know, there's a lot of affairs that are happening. It's just, it's a lot. That said, anyone listening, if you're into the Housewives, hit us up. Let me know how you experience this. No, no, no. Hit Sam. Because I'll be like, I don't know what, like if someone's doing me like, say, what are your thoughts on the Green Eyed Bandits? I'd be like, what are your thoughts on sanity? What are you talking about?

Oh my goodness. All right. Well, to end this segment, I'll share what I've been watching and I'm fully caught up on, which is Daisy and the Six, which is also on Amazon Prime like Swarm. So if you finish Swarm this week and you want to watch another show about

a famous fictionalized music group watch this show it is uh very loosely but very accurately based on fleetwood mac you know the very famous rock group and it's about the the band dynamics and there's a lot of dramas if you listen to that music you know those songs are based on the love affairs within the group um but the show is really wonderful it stars riley keogh who is the she's the granddaughter she's the white girl can act he was in zola i'm sorry she growled yeah she

She was in Zola. She's also the granddaughter of Elvis. And it's just really wonderful. And what makes it interesting, I mean, the show's not perfect. It's not the best written show. It's just really fun to watch. But the music is all original. It was created by Blake Mills. He got Phoebe Bridgers to help him and a bunch of other people. And the songs are actually quite good. And they're so good that they are the first album, the album released with the show is called Aurora. It's the first album to crack the top 10 on iTunes by a fictional group. Wow. Good.

Good for them. Oh, that's interesting because Swarm for Nyjah, they've released like a little EP. They released an album. Those songs are pretty good. They're catchy. Those songs are pretty good. So they did something similar with Daisy. Okay. Yeah. So Amazon Prime is really beefing up Amazon music. I'll connect some dots here. Beyonce's little private party she's been throwing, the Renaissance Balls or whatever, when I went to one, the sponsor for that

was Amazon Music. And Amazon Prime did Swarm and they're doing Daisy and the Six. So there's something happening in the Amazon world. There's a model business model. Okay. Connecting. Okay. I love it. Very good. Check it out. Okay. All right, listeners, what are you feeling or not feeling this week? What's your vibe? Check in with us at vibecheckatstitcher.com.

All right. Well, that's our show. Thank you for tuning into this week's episode of Vibe Check. If you love the show and want to support us, please make sure to follow the show on your favorite podcast listening platform and tell a friend, tell an auntie, tell someone on Twitter that you've been trolling. A huge thank you to our long-suffering producer, Chantel Holder. Chantel has to put up with a lot of chaos from the three of us. Chantel got a rap holder.

Got to move on, baby. Got to move on. Engineer Brendan Burns and Marcus Holm for our theme music and sound design. Special thank you to our executive producers, Nora Ritchie at Stitcher and Brandon Sharp from Agenda Management and Production.

Listeners, we want to hear from you. Don't forget, you can email us at vibecheckatstitcher.com. Tell us your thoughts on Swarm, the Potomac Housewives, and share any good LA contractor recommendations. Keep in touch with us on Instagram at at Sam Sanders, at Zach Staff, and at The Ferocity. Use the hashtag vibecheckpod.com.

As we reach the end of these credits, y'all, the rain has stopped and the sun has come out. Oh, look at that. What a blessing. Look at that. The season parted. You deserve. We deserve. It was wearing you out. It was wearing me down. And I feel lighter. I feel happier. Well, until next time, y'all, stay dry, stay safe. Goodbye. Bye. Goodbye. Stitcher.

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