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I don't think I've ever done this alone, but hello lady to myself. You're listening to Vibe Check. Just Sam here today for your introduction to the episode, but I'll be quick and we'll just get to it.
We got a special episode for y'all in the feed. This one right here is a chat that I recorded with a friend, a role model, a fellow podcaster, Tracy Thomas. We spoke for her podcast,
The Stacks. The Stacks is this amazing books podcast that Tracy has run for years. It's phenomenal. She interviews every author you'd ever want to hear from. She hosts fun book clubs with her listeners, and she's just all around a great person and a good friend.
This summer, this August, I am reading along with the Stax community a book called "You Made a Fool of Death with Your Beauty." It's a romance novel. It's spicy. It's seductive. It's sultry. I talk about getting ready to read this book with Tracy in the show. But also in this episode, I talk to Tracy about my philosophy on books and reading and all that kind of fun stuff.
We talk journalism and objectivity. This is super fun, Kiki. Listeners, I think you will enjoy this episode. The episode is called We're Giving Them Drugs. From me and Tracy to you, here's the two of us on her podcast called The Stacks.
Welcome to The Stats, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today I am joined by Sam Sanders, journalist and host of Vulture's flagship pop culture podcast, Into It. Sam also co-hosts the news and culture pod, Vibe Check, along with Saeed Jones and Zach Stafford.
Sam was formerly the host of NPR's It's Been a Minute and the NPR Politics podcast. And not only is Sam an incredibly accomplished podcast titan, he is also my friend and one of my favorite people to talk about just about anything with. So on today's episode, Sam and I discuss hearing our own voices as podcast hosts, objectivity in journalism, and the kinds of books that Sam gets to feature on his show.
Sam Sanders will return for our book club discussion on August 30th. We're going to be talking about the romance novel, You Made a Fool of Death with Your Beauty by Akwaeke Emezi. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of The Stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. All right, now it is time for my conversation with the wonderful Sam Sanders. Sam Sanders.
All right, everybody. This guest is such a long time coming. I am so excited to finally have my friend, y'all's fave on the podcast, podcast host, journalist, generally wonderful person, Sam Sanders. Finally, welcome to the stacks. Finally.
It's so good to be here. And I'm like, yeah, this has been a long time coming because we just hang in LA. Yeah, we're just friends now. Do you remember when and where we met? Probably some book event. Because before pandemic, we were in the same book event circle. We both are cool with Riverhead. And I feel like we would end up at a bunch of Riverhead parties. It was a Riverhead party. Yeah, I remember it so well because...
It was December 2019. Oh, wow. And I was very pregnant with my twins. And earlier that year, that summer, we were renovating our house and I was living in an apartment that I hated. And I had read How We Fight For Our Lives by Saeed Jones. Yeah. And he had shared the interview that you did with him on It's Been a Minute.
And I remember literally taking a shower in this tiny apartment with my ginormous belly and listening to the interview and being like,
Because I'd heard your show before, but being like, oh, Sam Sanders is a force. And that's when I started listening to you regularly. And so we were at a Riverhead event for James McBride's book that was coming. And LeVar Burton was there. I remember. And I was so excited. And I was like, oh, my God, LeVar Burton's here. And then you walked past me and I turned to my friend. I was like, do you know who Sam Sanders is? That's Sam Sanders. You have to listen to his interview with Saeed Joseph. Oh, my goodness.
And then I like went up to him was like, I'm such a big fan. And you were like, let's be friends. I want to do your show. And we were originally going to do it in like early 2020, but then pandemic and but we were originally going to do James McBride book.
I remember it. Yes. Deacon King Kong, right? Deacon King Kong. Yeah. It's been like almost four years since then. Literally. He has a new book out. Isn't that much time has passed? And now I host a show with Saeed. And now you host a show with Saeed. And Saeed has been on the stacks. And the three of us have gone out for drinks and apps. And now it's like a whole different world. I love it. There's like this like...
Black people book diaspora that has like come out of all of this because I've even had I had LeVar Burton on It's Been a Minute before I left that show. So all of the parties named we've all like I had James McBride on this show. There you go. There you go. It's a beautiful, beautiful spider web of book connection together. Yeah. So that's like a huge long intro. But I mean, for people who don't know Sam Sanders,
first of all, what are you doing? You're obviously not listening to me telling you what to do, but will you just tell people maybe a little bit about yourself? And you can include things that aren't professional. You can include a little like where you're from, your background, whatever feels like a good intro for Sam Sanders. Okay. So most people who know me, know me from the sound of my voice. I've been making radio and
and audio for, gosh, 13, 14 years now, almost 14 years. I was at NPR for a very long time. And I was a breaking news reporter there for years. I covered the 2016 election. I was one of the first hosts of the NPR Politics podcast. And then I launched and hosted It's Been a Minute for a little under five years. That was a radio show and a podcast. And
And since then, I've left. And now I host a weekly, twice a week, culture podcast for Vulture and New York Magazine called Into It. And I host a weekly Kiki podcast with two of my favorite people, Zach Stafford and Saeed Jones. It's called Vibe Check, and it publishes every Wednesday. So yeah, I'm just like an audio dude. I've been talking for a living for like 14 years now. So that's how a lot of folks know me. But people close to me know me as...
Yeah.
That's incredible. Yeah, I've been an Angeleno for, gosh, approaching a decade, but I am a Texan through and through and that place will always have my heart. Yeah, that's me, I guess. I love it. Okay. I want to know, people ask me this a lot, and I'm a professional talker for the last five years, but you're a professional talker for a lot longer. How do you feel about the sound of your voice?
I feel pretty good about it now. For years, I did not. And so whenever I talk to people about getting used to talking or how they sound, I kind of say to folks, oh yeah, for years you might not like the way you sound on a microphone. That's just the process. That's just the process. So I don't think I got comfortable with even hearing my own voice until I had been doing it for like five years. That said, the only real advice I give to people is
is to try as much to sound on the microphone like you do off the microphone. The only difference is that you make sure to enunciate. That's it. Like, that's literally it. There are really no rules. And I think increasingly, people just want to hear other folks who sound like real people. So at this point,
I think I sound kind of the same way all the time. The only difference is my diction is hopefully a little bit more polished and the delivery is a little better. But the way in which I talk to you in this chat will probably be the same way that we talk when we're just hanging out. That's the goal, right? Yeah. It's so interesting because I feel like NPR voice used to be like such a thing when I was growing up. Oh my God. And now it's like,
NPR voice is your voice, right? Or like it could be anybody's voice. And it's just so interesting to think about how I think probably podcasts have had a huge impact on that. But just that there's been such a change in what's acceptable for serious journalists to sound like. Exactly. And I think it's beautiful. When I started at NPR, I
That old school of thinking about how to sound was so entrenched. They would tell us when they were training us how to be like baby producers and reporters, don't ever include the word I in a script. You should never even reference yourself.
And looking back, it's like, wow, that was crazy and dumb. And eventually the company stopped doing that. So to NPR's credit, the idea of what that sound is and how much a person gets to be a person, that shifted over time in a better direction, you know? And I think I was part of that wave. But there are a lot of people who were just out there finding ways to be themselves and still be journalists. I have looked up to Ari Shapiro, a friend of mine for years. I was just going to say Ari Shapiro. He was on the show too. He's great. You know, he was just named...
NLGJA Journalist of the Year. Congrats, Ari. I saw that. So cool. Yeah. But he was always an inspiration because he was kind of just like, yeah, I sound fucking gay on a microphone because I'm gay. Right. Deal with it, right? And so like, that is the norm now, people being themselves. And I think it's a beautiful thing. I just, it's so interesting to think about like journalists not
you know, putting themselves in the story because it's obviously like a relic from, or like a function of white supremacy and like heteropatriarchy and all of that stuff. But it's like, cause it's like, Oh, we don't put ourselves in the story because we are quote unquote neutral, which means like we're straight white dudes of a certain age and class. And when you start to put yourself in the story, if you're not that, then you're like,
editorializing or something, right? Isn't that what they're sort of getting at? Totally. But a lot of these journalists who still push the idea of objectivity are
These straight white male journalists don't ever think about how they're showing subjectivity in the stories they choose to cover and who they choose to interview for those stories, right? I also am obsessed with unpacking the idea of objectivity. You know, we treated it in the world of journalism as sacrosanct, as Bible for a very long time. But when you look back at the history of the word objectivity in journalism, it began as a business practice.
There was a certain moment in American journalism where the heads of these big papers and such said, we can get a wider audience if we present our news in a nonpartisan way. We'll get Democrats and Republicans to read it.
It was a money grab. There were moments in American history and still all throughout the world where journalistic outlets were very clear about where they stood politically and you knew it and that was the ecosystem. The UK kept this going for a lot longer than the US did, but there were left papers, there were right papers, there were middle of the road papers and you knew and they were just like, here's who we are, here's what we're doing.
But America got in this mindset, or white American newsleaders got in this mindset that you could capitalize or maximize eyeballs and listeners if you were, quote unquote, down the middle, because then everyone could like you, right? Right, right. And so whenever I ask someone to...
Or whenever someone is asking me to take objectivity seriously, I kind of just say it was about money anyway. It wasn't actually about the craft. It wasn't. Right. But like, okay, so taking that a step further then, what do you feel about like a Fox News that has sort of gone back to we are who we are and we're running with our point of view? Obviously, there's some...
untruths lies going on over there but this idea that like maybe that's a move away from object objectivity that like more news outlets should get back to like this is who we are this is what we stand for and this is how we interpret the news
Yeah. I mean, I think there's two things going on with Fox News. Like Fox is a company that is exactly who it is. But Fox is a company that gets to get away with a bunch of bad things because our government doesn't regulate them anymore. There was a moment in American history where...
where the FCC did a pretty good job of making sure that stuff that was classified as news was fair. They did a pretty good job of making sure that different viewpoints had equal time on the airwaves and TV waves. That was a thing that began to be rolled back in the presidency of Ronald Reagan. And so you're seeing two things happen with Fox. They're incredibly partisan. Okay.
But they're also incredibly unregulated. Right. And so I want and what I hope for American journalism is that like we're
We allow journalists to be journalists and be fully who they are. But we also have some guardrails in place from the folks that regulate this stuff, which is literally the FCC. Like their job. Like their job. They don't get to do the job anymore. Their mission statement. Yeah. And like the last time the FCC was actually fully involved in what we see and hear was
was when they were fining stations for showing Janet Jackson's nipple for half a second at that Super Bowl halftime show. They have bigger fish to fry. They have bigger things to do. So, I mean, you're seeing the federal government fall behind in...
I mean, there's so many things that I'm not going to get into, but Section 230 and who's liable for internet publishing. And don't even get me started on what the government does with AI and who owns art and intellectual property. The government's behind.
And the government hasn't been doing what Western Europe has been doing for like 30 years. Western Europe does a really good job of regulating these tech platforms, regulating speech in a way to protect minority rights and safety. And the U.S. just really stopped doing that like in the 80s. I feel like part of it is also like
the u.s government is so old like they don't get the technology they don't get the technology yeah you'll see these hearings where it's like mark zuckerberg comes to the yes that's the one i'm thinking of where they were like how do i delete friend requests i was like what how do i poke mark zuckerberg you're like what the hell you know i mean this is this is you know let's not let's not make this a conversation about government 101 but like our government has like
in many ways, stopped keeping up with the times. You know, we have a situation where like every few months you'll see Congress is fighting past midnight to pass a budget. Something ain't right. The system is kind of effed up. Don't get me started. Don't get me started. Okay, we're not going to go there. I'm with you on that. I want to go back a little bit to objectivity though, because I feel like, you know, while I haven't ever had you on the show, you did do my one for the book show with me. And we talked about this with Danielle Smith a little bit about this idea of like,
identity and how people who are not cis het white dudes are classified by identity and like all these things. And you talk about how like,
Cis white het dudes, that is an identity. And like, I just, I would love for you to talk a little bit about that because obviously it's something that I know and knew, but like hearing you talk about it was just like, it was really validating for me as like to help me with my imposter syndrome. It's like, no, I get to be here too. My identity is just as important as yours and you don't have no identity just because you are trying to pretend like you're objective. Exactly. Exactly.
I kind of liken it... You know how some people will say, this is an American thing, right?
They'll be like, well, that person doesn't have an accent. Oh, yeah. You know, like if they have like a Midwestern dialect or some kind of way of talking that feels pretty run-of-the-mill. Yeah, like mid-Atlantic. Yeah, that is not true. Everyone has an accent because an accent just means the way you sound when you talk. Everyone sounds like something when they talk. Right. And I think there's something about the way we conceptualize race and culture in America where we just assume that the default –
doesn't have these attributes, doesn't have accent, doesn't have race because it's the default or the majority. But in fact, it does. I feel like looking back on my childhood, I grew up with a lot of white kids who never thought about how they were white. They just got to think about how they were people because most of the people they saw in the world were also white. And so the only people that had race in their minds were people who were not white. And like,
people grow up with this and then they internalize these beliefs and then they take it into positions of leadership in places like newsrooms. And it's like, that's the problem. Right. And I think the big national conversation of the last 10 to 15 to 20 years, especially post Trayvon Martin has been trying to convince white people that they in fact, as well are raced. They have a race. I think a lot of white people still don't see that. And,
And that's kind of the part where you're like, oh, wow. Right, or even if they know it, they don't understand it. They don't think about it. They don't believe it. They don't, yeah. They know like, oh, I'm white, but they don't understand what it means to be raced. Exactly. And so whenever I hear white people, even well-intentioned white people now kind of talking about how they have to think about race too much in this current political environment or climate, I say to them,
I think about being black every day. Every day. I think about being gay every day. Whenever I go to a grocery store, Tracy, I ask for a receipt and a bag so that no one ever thinks I was shoplifting. Right. That's because I'm black.
When I'm out with my boyfriend, I'm aware of what part of LA I am in and whether or not I should hold his hand or not. That's because I'm gay, right? I have to manage the performance of my identities everywhere I go. And I think what's interesting about what you're saying is for white women, there's this idea that because I'm a woman, I have...
like an identity, quote unquote, that I have to worry about. But I think that white, because of the history of white supremacy, white womanhood is not an identity in the same way that black womanhood or Korean womanhood, like, I think that it's a function of white supremacy. And so this, like, of course, being a woman,
across the board means something. But I think that like, I think that white women are uniquely positioned to feel like their womanhood is like an excuse or, or a way to be like, I'm a woman. So I experienced discrimination without understanding that like white woman, the performance of white woman, this is actually in service to white maleness and white supremacy way more than it is actually like something that holds them back. If that makes sense. Oh, totally. I think that like, when you think about, um,
Yeah.
Is like you're carrying two buckets at once. You're carrying all the negatives that come with being a woman and being marginalized. But you also have this bucket full of water that is right next to you.
straight privileged white men, you know? And so, and like part of the conversation I think is asking white women to know that they can do both of those things and be both of those things at the same time. Right. And that's hard to think about sometimes. It really is. But also like, I think so much of the crusade of white manness is, is in name on behalf of white women, you know? And so I feel like that's like, what's so complicating about it is, is this idea of like,
White womanhood is at once super privileged and also, of course, like discriminated against. Totally. But it's in such a different way. Well, and it's historical. Right. You think about the era of American history in which lynching was a big thing. Right. Usually the defense white courts and juries and judges used to kill women
Right.
The enterprise of white supremacy was often upheld through the idea of protecting the white woman. Yeah, totally. I'm doing such a hard shift because I want to ask you about podcasts. And also, I want to say, like, you and I both work in the podcast space.
a lot of our listeners, a lot of our audience is white women. Oh, so much of my audience. I don't ever want to say I'm telling white women not to be a part of my work, not to be a part of this community. I'm saying to anybody and everybody who wants to be involved in what I'm doing and what I'm saying and what I'm about, let's just have these conversations. Right. And like, let's look at ourselves. Exactly. Yeah. Like I grapple every day with the privilege I have
as a cisgendered man who is six feet tall, very much male presenting with facial hair and a shaved head. I get to walk through spaces and walk into places and I had that privilege on me while also being gay, while also being black. All of these things can be true at once. And I think the conversation I'm trying to have about race and identity right now is like,
How do we think about all of these things at once? Because we can and we should. And because we all have those things, right? Exactly. Totally. Okay, let me ask you about podcasting really quick. Okay. You left NPR. I did. You went to Vulture. You started Intuit. And then you also started a vibe check with your friends. I want to know as a person, because when you were, I guess, at Intuit and also when you were at It's Been a Minute, you are...
Sam Sanders, host, a lone wolf out interviewing the world, talking about things. But now you have this show where you have co-hosts. What's that like? And especially because they're not professional co-hosts. They're personal co-hosts. They're your friends. Yeah.
You know, it has been so much smoother than I even thought it would be. So when I first had the idea for us doing it, so I had had Saeed on It's Been a Minute and I had Zach on It's Been a Minute as well, like more than once. And.
And then I had the both of them on together once. And then I had the both of them on together again. And we made this special tribute episode after the death of Andre Leon Talley. And it was just beautiful. And, you know, we're still in pandemic during this moment. And I was just getting restless with all things. And I was thinking about like, what would I like to do that would make me happy?
And there were like three things that came up. One, I missed music. I wanted to play my saxophone more. I grew up playing my saxophone. I was a music major in college and I had gotten out of it. So I know I wanted to do that again. And I've been taking saxophone lessons for a while now to get back into that.
So I knew that I wanted to at some point like find a way to go back to church and that's been fraught and a journey still. But I also knew that I wanted to start making audio that was like exactly what I wanted to do. And I wanted to find a way to make my work better.
I wanted to have anyway. And that was definitely born out of the pandemic. And what I realized were like two things. I wanted to talk more about popular culture and less about news, hence the Voltram at all. And I realized I wanted to talk to my favorite people on a regular basis. Mm-hmm.
on a regular basis. So much of my work at Vulture, so much of my work on It's Been a Minute was talking to a new whoever every week. And that's super fun and it's a great challenge and I enjoy it and I think I've gotten pretty good at it. But I longed for familiar conversations. And I think a lot of that was born out of the isolation and solitude of the pandemic. Yeah.
I wanted to talk to my friends on a regular basis. And that's Vibe Check. That's really it. And them as hosts, it's been phenomenal. You know, they're both accomplished professionals in their own right. Saeed's an award-winning writer. Zach is a Tony award-winning Broadway producer and former editor-in-chief of The Advocate. But they also both, for a while...
They hosted a live morning Twitter TV show from BuzzFeed called AM to Diem. So they have host experience. In fact, they have video hosting experience. So, I mean, anyone who listens knows that they ain't no slouches. So it is, on the one hand, me making a new show with my friends, but I'm also making...
a podcast with my friends who happened to be like distinguished media professionals. So I lucked out. We lucked out. You know, there was no learning curve. I think we recorded one pilot that we then shopped to studios. That pilot sounds just as good as the show you hear now. It was always kind of just like we clicked.
So no, it is one of the bright spots of my week every week. And when I don't have weeks where we're taping and recording, I miss it. It's like my guaranteed weekly kiki with my friends. I love that. What's the hardest part about doing Vibe Check? Figuring out...
what to share and what not to share. So I've always been pretty open, even on It's Been a Minute in the NPR Politics podcast. And there's things that I always feel comfortable talking about. And I think it builds a relationship with the audience. People know what I like to eat. They know what kind of music I like. They know what movies I've watched, that. But VibeCheck is so much more personal. Now there are questions of like, how much will I share about my relationship?
How much will I share about, you know, like the, one of the bigger life events for me right now is like becoming a homeowner. So over the last year, the place I was renting, the landlord was like, you want to buy it?
And I went back and forth for months and then I bought it. But like becoming a homeowner and into middle age and come out of a pandemic and a weird economy, it's been weird. And so it's like, well, how much of that can I talk about on the show? Or, you know, my mother died a few weeks ago. We had an entire episode about grief and her death. And it's like, well, how much of that should I share on the show? And for me, the answer is always grief.
Does saying any of these things embarrass you? If not, you can say it. And does saying any of these things potentially help other people? If it does, you should say it. And so probably the most personal I've gotten in an episode of Vibe Check was our grief episode all about my mother dying. And I went back and forth. It was like, well, should I talk about this? And I said to myself, Americans specifically, don't do a good job
of talking about grief. We don't talk about it enough. And so if me talking about my mother's death with my good friend, so I want to talk to you about this anyway, if that can help open up some listeners to some important conversations with their loved ones around grief, then it's actually good. Let me do this, you know? So if it's edifying, let's do it and just make sure that I don't embarrass myself in the process. But I kind of know now that
what stuff I say out loud will like embarrass me later. You know, so there are, there are details about my romantic relationship with my partner that listeners will never hear. Uh-huh.
And that's fine. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that grief episode was so good. I posted on my Instagram. I was listening to it when I was getting ready for something and I was trying to put a fucking fake eyelash on. And then I'm like crying and I'm cursing you. I'm like, Sam, leave me alone. Why are you attacking me right now? But it was so good. Oh, of course.
you know, I listen to everything you do. Though I'm a little bit behind this week because I, you know, life, but I haven't finished the Barbie episode yet, but I'm going back to it. And I haven't listened to Vibe Check yet, but I'm going back to that too. Anyways, I have, you know, my tour starts this weekend. I'm so ready for it. I'm so excited. I'm so nervous. I also love seeing you on tour. I've had the privilege of being a part of one of your live shows. Yeah.
The people love you and you rock that stage. The vibes are good. I like live so much. You know, that's my background. I was a theater major. Yeah, you know how to do it. So live for me is my favorite. I love live. But preparing for live is so stressful because the theater, when you work in the theater, there's so many people you work with.
And like so many people you collaborate and like bounce ideas off of and like people that enhance what you're doing. And with this, you know, it's just me and I have a tour manager. And when I do the live show for LAist, I have a producer and they help me, but like I'm generating all of the ideas. And so it's a lot of like,
This is an idea I have, but is it a good idea? And so I do have two friends from my theater background who I will literally sit down with and take them out to coffee and be like, okay, here's what I'm thinking. What would you do? And they know me and my creative process. And like, I literally could not make anything live without them at this point. I love it. Because I'm, it's like so isolating creating live stuff online.
Oh, yeah. As a single person. Oh, totally. Like, there's no stage manager. There's no director. Like, it's just me, and I'm, like, trying to visual. Anyways, this is. Yeah, well, and the script is new for every show. The script is new for every show. Like, when you're doing theater, and I'm not a theater girl. I did a musical in Catholic school as a kid, but that was it. But, yeah.
There is a certain security in saying, well, this play has a script. Right. No matter what, like this is solid. These words are going to happen, you know? But when you do like a live show for a books podcast, it's,
Everyone needs to be different and is different. So you're like making a new play every time. Yeah, it is. It's like it's much more akin to like improv than it is to like scripted. But yes, but I'm such a type A person that I have, you know, I have a script. I have a plan. I have a outlet. Like I need I need as much structure in my life as possible. And so I think that's what's fun about live too for me is it's like this is scary.
like can't edit this, can't fix this. And you get like that real time feedback. A laugh in person. I can't, I can't handle it. It's so overwhelming or spontaneous applause. My like love language. Okay. Wait, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back.
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This message is brought to you by McDonald's. Did you know only 7.3% of American fashion designers are black? Well, McDonald's 2024 Change Leaders Program is ready to change the face of fashion. The innovative program awards a monetary grant to five emerging black American designers and pairs each with an industry professional to help them elevate their brands.
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Okay, we're back. So I didn't prep you for this, but we do this thing called Ask the Stacks where someone will write in and they're looking for a book recommendation. This one, this one I'm going to ask you is so hard. I really struggled with this one and it's totally in my wheelhouse, but it's something that I've struggled with for years as a reader. So this comes from Nicole. The question is one sentence long.
It's not even a question. It's a sentence. I'm looking for some investigative journalism books from BIPOC authors. Nicole,
You are asking the question that is at the center of my heart and my life because there really are not that many, which is really unfortunate. I tried to outsource this to Twitter and threads and I got two replies. So I have two and I can start and Sam, you can think about it and you can just do one or whatever. So the first one is a brand new book that just came out. It's called When Crack Was King by Donovan X Ramsey. And Donovan was on the show recently.
two weeks ago as you guys are listening to this. And it's a people's history of a misunderstood era, which is the crack era. And he interviews a lot of people connected to the crack era and also shares like the journalism or like the reporting around what happened in the history and stuff. So that's like a new one that I love. And then the other one is, I have not read it yet, but it's on my list and I want to read it. It's called Those Who Wander by Vivian Ho. And it's about unhoused people.
She follows them and writes about them and the history of homelessness in America and people who are unhoused for a myriad of reasons. So those are the two that I came up with. Do you have any off the top of your head? I mean, I think she deserves more credit for being an investigative journalist than she gets, but...
I classify Nicole Hannah-Jones' work on race and history as investigative. Okay, I'll take that. And so I would say the 1619 Project, it's a different kind of investigation. It's an investigation into our history, but that...
Okay, I'll take that. You know who I was hoping had a book out but still doesn't is one of my favorite investigative journalists or like journalists period is Caitlin Dickerson. Oh, she's working on a book. She's working on a book. Yeah, no, I was introduced to her through you. I think she was on your show. Yeah. But she's got something coming out. I think in 2024 from Random House about...
Like our immigration system. Yeah, it's just so awful. You know, so Caitlin's been covering immigration for years at the New York Times for a long time and currently at the Atlantic. But she just won the Pulitzer for her reporting on immigration. And she's working right now on a book all about it. So that should be out soon. We've talked about, you know, how hard it is to write a book like that, but she's doing it. So, yeah, yeah.
Write that name down. Her book on immigration is going to blow everyone's mind. Caitlin Dickerson. She's good stuff. And everything we talk about people is in a link in the show notes. So you can find we'll link to Caitlin Dickerson. We can link to her Atlantic article that got her the Pulitzer. It's a very long form one looking at what went into immigration.
Trump's family separation policy. It's phenomenal. It's so good. She's so good. Okay. Now we're going to talk about your book taste. Here we go. Two books you love, one book you hate.
I'm going to tell folks the most two recent ones I've read and loved. I am lucky enough on The Vulture Show Intuit to every now and then talk with authors, especially if they're in the comedy or creative TV movie space. And so one book I just read and interviewed the author about, and it was just like,
breathtakingly hilarious. I know where this is going. Sad at the same time. I told you about this book. I love this book. Zach Zimmerman's book. It is a debut memoir book of essays. It's called Is It Hot In Here? Or Am I Suffering For All Eternity For The Sins I Committed On Earth? It's so good. You start reading it and you think it's
The same kind of book you would get from an up-and-coming internet comedian who on occasion writes for New Yorker Shouts and Murmurs. And it starts out light and funny and quippy like that. And then he gets really deep on his family history and growing up gay in a severely conservative Christian household. And then some of those essays and chapters break your heart and make you cry. It's one of those books that takes you from one emotion to the next and
in the span of a few sentences and is brilliantly written. He's an incredibly deft writer. I love the book. It obviously spoke to me a lot because I also was a queer kid who grew up in a very Christian household.
But this book was damn good. Zach Zimmerman, Is It Hot in Here or Am I Suffering for All Eternity for the Sins I Committed on Earth. I cannot recommend this book enough. It's also a quick read. It's not that long. So that's one. And then the other book I had the privilege to read for work recently was Samantha Irby's latest book. And I feel like neither of us need to say too much about her. She's just fucking great. And you know it.
Yeah. She's my guest in Chicago for the tour. I love it. I can't wait. It's so good. Her latest book is called Quietly Hostile. It's a book of essays about her hilarious life. She is honestly a model for how to share a lot about who you are. She tells you everything. Everything. Every book of hers spends a good chunk of time on...
on her bowel issues. And it's funny. And I love it. And it's good. And she is one of the smartest writers I know. But she communicates in a way that is so...
egalitarian. She didn't put on any airs. The first chapter of this new book, Quietly Hostile, the premise of the first essay is just like, we're allowed to like things, even if it's tacky, even if it's lowbrow. I like it because I like it, and you can do that too, and that's enough. That is the vibe of the entire book, and so it is incredibly, in that way, um,
Gosh, life affirming. Let me say that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I liked it. Isn't that what she says to say? I liked it. Exactly. I liked it. I liked it. And so there. Exactly. Okay. Speaking of things you like, what's a book you hate? Oh, gosh. Oh, gosh.
Okay. I'm going to tell you one where I'm just like, we could get to this point a lot quicker. Several friends of mine have been like, you're in a serious relationship. You should read the book Attached. I don't know that. It's all about attachment theory, which sure, good. Are you anxious attachment, this attachment, that attachment? I bought it. I started reading it, trying to be a good partner. And
And it's one of those books where you're like, this could have just been a magazine article. This could have been a BuzzFeed quiz. Literally. Like take the quiz. We'll tell you what your fucking attachment type is and you're done. So I guess I don't like that book because I,
I only want to read a full length book if it needs to be a full length book. Yes. Call me crazy. And there's so many books, you know, this, you work in books. There's so many books that could have just been a magazine article. Yeah. Like give me a nice long form. Give me a Caitlin Dickerson length article. And I would be like, yes, I'm reading a book that's sort of like that right now. It's called mom fluence. And it's about like mommy influencer culture. And, um,
Chapter six is fantastic. It's about like white moms and it's like QAnon, anti-vax, just like the weaponization. And like, I'm like, this could be the entire book or this could have been an article. This one essay. But I get it. Like a book advance is a lot more money than the payment for a magazine article. Yeah.
No, I get it, but I hate it as a reader because I'm like, please respect my time. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Wait, I want to ask you about on Intuit, how you decide what books...
you will cover on the show? Because it's a show about pop culture. And, you know, I think books are pop culture. But I know a lot of people don't. And I know that also a podcast is a business, especially one like at a place like Vulture. And, you know, you all need to hit your downloads and all that kind of stuff. So how do you decide what books you can feature? Yeah. You know, on It's Been a Minute, we really had
a few luxuries and blessings with that show. Once it got big enough and because it was on the radio, uh,
and it was a podcast, we had a lot of freedom to just kind of do whatever. You know, that show always made more money on the radio side than the podcast side. Interesting. Which is very interesting. But the thing about a radio show, it's like once it's there and the stations have taken it and the audience likes it enough and they know your voice enough, you can literally do whatever and they'll listen. Right. You know, it's like if you listen to Hot 97, right?
Right. Right.
I don't know if it's going to be big or small, but I like this book. Intuit is one, a new show and just a podcast. So we're still in just this growth mindset where like until the, like probably for the next year or two making this show, it's going to be in a growth phase where like every week needs to be tied to the zeitgeist and a hit. So we have less room to deviate from like where the culture currently is. So when we pick books, we either want,
a buzzy author everyone knows like Brandon Taylor we're doing a little book club on Intuit on his latest book
Or we want authors like Zach Zimmerman or Samantha Irby who can talk about their book and also talk about the week of pop culture. So when I had those two authors on, half the episode was like, here's some news of the week in pop culture land. What do you think? And the other half is their book chat. I think over time as the show spreads its wings more,
we're going to have a wider range of authors. And I also think that we're going to begin to have authors on vibe check. I was just going to say, are you guys going to do a book club?
I think so. And I can't announce the book yet, but we've been talking about it. So there's one in the works there as well. But yeah, I probably don't have as much freedom in book selection as I did at It's Been a Minute, but both of these shows are getting to that place. But also the thing that always defines what kind of book I want to read is do I actually want to read it?
If I don't want to read it, I shouldn't do it. Yeah, for sure. I shouldn't do it. For sure. Like, I don't want to read a book because like, it's the thing you need to do. Like, no, I want my time. Everyone's time is valuable. Yeah. Let me not waste it on bad shit. Agreed. What kind of reader would you say that you are?
I've changed over time. When I was a kid, I was the kind of child who would literally get in trouble for reading too much. Like my parents would be like, it's bedtime lights out. And then I'd go to my room and have like truly the flashlight under the bedspread to keep reading. And I remember getting in trouble for that. Right. So I was a voracious reader when I was a kid and I was taught to read very early. Um,
My brother and I are Aunt Alta, my mother's sister. She taught the two of us how to read before we even began kindergarten. She was an English teacher and she was just like, I'll teach you. So we walked into kindergarten reading.
Can she teach my kids? My kids are illiterate still. And honestly, I think it's fine. I don't know how it happened for us. It was like just a miracle of having like an English teacher for an aunt. So I was an incredibly voracious reader as a kid. I always had my head in a book. Then the thing happens when you like, you know, get to high school prime TV age. I watched so much shit TV in high school. Yeah.
Just MTV was always on. And I think I got out of reading for a while, especially with the rise of the smartphone. And now I'm very intentional about it again. During the day, I'm kind of on a phone reading something. But at night, reading a book before bed is like my routine. So I'm always kind of working through a book as I go to sleep.
And then whenever I'm like away from the grid for a while on vacation or on a plane for a long time, I want a book there with me. But I'm going to be honest. I can't read a book during the day. I'm plugged in to the phone, to the computer. And I read a lot for work, but like reading a magazine article for work on your phone is not the same as reading a book.
So a lot of my book reading happens nights before bed, weekends, vacations, or trips. Okay. And what's the last great book you read? Just like out of the park, a maze. I mean, I'm going to say it again because I love this book so fucking much. Zach Zimmerman's book just had me weeping. Okay. And what are you reading right now? Right now, so I watched...
Flashman is in trouble. Oh, FX last year. And I loved that show. Then I got the book, uh, which came first written by Taffy brought us her Acner. I have to take that book in small doses cause it's so heavy, but I'm about 70 pages from being done with the book. And every sentence she writes kind of knocks you off your feet. Okay. She does this thing where she talks about the, the,
interior lives and the personal monologues of these fictitious characters so vividly and deeply that you almost think you're having those thoughts yourself, if that makes sense. I have not read a book that has captured the way people's minds can spin out when they're in crisis as well as Fleischman does. And that makes it a harder read because it's fucking heavy, but it's so good. It's so good. So far, what's better, the book or the show?
The show has Claire Danes. Yeah. But let me tell you, there's an episode towards the end, the second to last episode where Claire Danes is doing the work and it was like, give her, give her an EGOT just for this. I think she's one of our great living actresses. She really is. I don't give her enough credit. I feel like, especially for our generation. Oh, she's phenomenal. Watch the show, read the book. I also love reading the book after watching the show to see what they've changed because Taffy, the author of the book was,
was heavily involved with the show. And so she was in charge of making that show as exactly what she wanted it to be. And seeing and hearing and reading about what changed, I find that fascinating. Yeah. What are some books you're looking forward to reading? They don't have to be new books, but just things you're hoping to get to soon. Donovan Ramsey's book is on my list, The Crack Was Cain. You know, I usually...
I avoid look backs at that time because it usually comes from like academia and elites who are just very judgy with it. But Donovan's book, I can already tell, is going to have a very empathetic take on that period of American life, Black American life. So I'm ready for that. I am looking forward to Caitlin's book.
Actually, what should I look forward to? You know me. You know books. Knowing me and my personality. What should be on my radar? Yeah. Huh. Well, have I talked to you? I know that I put you on Poverty by America by Matthew Desmond, which you love. Yes, which I have. Yes, so good. You know, I like to read like dark shit. I feel like maybe...
Okay. So there's a book that just came out that I just read that I think is probably one of the best things I've read this year called The Country of the Blind by Andrew Leland. Okay. And he has retinous pigmentosa, which is, I think I said that right, RP, which is like slowly making him blind. And it's his, and he got diagnosed in...
as a teenager and he's in his 40s now I believe and he basically like writes a memoir about his experience but also does that like deep research stuff so he's going to like blind conventions and he's talking to blind artists and blind inventors and blind activists so it's like both blindness and
very personal, his experience. And he gets very intimate. He like shares, you know, things about his relationship with his wife and being a father and all that stuff. And then also he zooms way, way out and is like, I'm new to this blind shit. Like, let me talk to someone who was born blind or someone who was blinded as a toddler or whatever that looks like. And it's so good. And just like, as we were talking about before about like identity, it was a book where as I was reading it, I was like, right, I am non-disabled.
Yeah. And like, I need to think about that more. And I need to like, think about what it means to not need a cane or like even less than that, like just to be able to like choose if I want to read a book or with my ears or my eyes and like all that kind of stuff. So I think I really like it. I love that. And just speaking, just thinking about like how we are not disabled and that is in itself an identity. I had a moment the other week, you know,
especially in LA, people never think about this, but when you park your car in a driveway, if there's multiple cars in the driveway, many times a car might block the sidewalk. You don't think twice about it, do you? It could ruin someone's day if they're in a wheelchair. It could ruin their day, right? And it's like those little things we just don't think about. So I can't wait to read this book you're talking about because it's like, yeah, how do we start having conversations where we see people
all of the ways and things we are and aren't. And like, I don't know. Sorry, let's go back to a previous topic. But I'm obsessed with that right now. Yeah, I think you'll really like it then. It was really impactful for me just to think about my own place and also just to think about blind people and what that's like and the variety. He talks about...
he talks about closed or like not closed captioning when blind people can listen to shows where they'll like explain what's on the screen. And he talks about the difference of like what people who are blinded at a young age want versus people who had been sighted for a long time and have gone blind as far as like how much detail they want to know about the character on screen. Like he was saying like people who are blind for a long time or like born blind, blind,
want just like man walks onto screen punches baby and people who are like newly blind want like black man bald head in a denim shirt like they want like and it was just so interesting to think about all these nuances and like the variety of blindness and and he said also like
There's not a lot of writing about blindness. So I think part of it is just like he's filling this space that there isn't like a huge wealth of knowledge there or like discourse there in the written word at least. And so I think it's great. I think it'll be one of those books on all the lists at the end of the year too. Love it. On my list. Okay, back to you. What's a book that you love to recommend to people? Oh my God. This is...
A fraught recommendation. Okay. And also kind of cliche. Mm-hmm. The best graduation gift you can ever give to any graduate, middle school, high school, college, grad school, whatever. Dr. Seuss's Oh, the Places You'll Go. Oh, the Places You'll Go. I thought you were going to say The Alchemist, so this is a way better answer. I mean...
You start reading this little sing-song whimsical book, and by the end, you are weeping deeply and thinking about life. And it's a short little book. You know. I know. I have it for my kids. Yeah. It's just beautiful. I had my own copy. Yeah, it is. Even thinking about it makes me tear up. It's a fucking good book. So that. Yeah. Okay. I'll take that. Do you ever do audio books or digital books? I don't. No? No. Always physical. I'll tell you why. Okay. Because even when I have podcasts on...
If I even get distracted for like one second, I rewind it like 15 seconds or 30 seconds. And the idea of doing that with an audio book that is hours long, I would actually never get through it. It's faster for me to just read the book on the page. I'm sure if I got good at that and could focus more, that'd be a great way to get through books a lot quicker. But she's not there yet. Okay. Do you have a favorite bookstore?
Oh, gosh. I mean, where you had your party. I love that one. Reparations Club. Yes. My piece. Yeah. It's funny. A lot of books now get sent to me from people who want me to talk about the books or with the authors. So I'm kind of lucky that I don't have to go out to get new books right now. Like every book I've read in the last several years has been sent to me. Wow. Knock on wood. Blast. Most of them. But I'm really currently into record stores. I got a record player...
to get Renaissance on vinyl. Oh, yeah. So a lot of my going to stores to peruse things and look for things is like vinyl collection. Got it. I'm so middle-aged. Oh, God. I have a record collection. I used to have a record player. My kids broke it. It was very cheap. It's fine. It's fine. I'll get another one eventually. But I did buy the Renaissance on vinyl just to have it, even though I no longer have a record player. And like the full-size posters of Beyonce that come with it. I haven't actually opened it.
It's just like, it's like a collector's item in my house, just like on the counter displayed out. Oh my goodness. And I have a bunch of my dad's old records. I love it. So, and they all are, you know, they're old played records. They've got scratches and stuff, but still so good. Last book that made you laugh. Laugh, laugh, laugh. Yeah. That's Samantha Irby book. Okay. Last book that made you cry.
Zach Zimmerman's book. Sorry to keep bringing up the same two. It's okay. What about last book that made you angry? Attached. Should have been an article. Okay. Last book where you felt like you learned a lot? Fleischman. Okay. There's a line where one of the characters says something like, you can get divorced, but you'll always be married. And the way that that book has made me think about relationships and long-term relationships has kind of been eye-opening. Okay. Any...
Any book that you think people would be surprised to know that you love? Matt Amayo. It was a fantasy novel by this author, Brian Jax. And it was part of this Redwall series. And it was like knights and stuff and like armies and fighting, but they were all rats. And...
I read all those things as a kid and I still think about them fondly. And I hate existing IP as an idea in Hollywood, but if they ever made that like big screen Marvel level movies, I'd be the biggest goodwill ambassador for that. Love those books. Yeah. If you were going to assign a book to high school students, what would you assign?
There's a book I loved years ago by Jonathan Haar. It's called A Civil Action. And it's a pretty truthful retelling of how big corporations basically poison the water of a community for decades and no one knew. And I mean, we've seen this story a lot. It is the Aaron Brockovich story. But this book is written like a novel, but tells this true story. It's beautifully done, so that. Okay. And then last one. If you could require the current president of the United States to read one book, what would it be?
Joe Biden. Mm-hmm. Bad guy. He's tired. Just give him some cocaine.
No books, just drugs. The other week they were like, there's cocaine in the White House. I was like, okay, it might help. Joe needs it. Okay. We're straying. We're not giving him a book. We're giving him actual drugs. Cocaine bear. Cocaine Biden. All right, everybody. So Sam will be back at the end of the month. We are discussing You Made a Fool of Death with Your Beauty by Mickey Emezi. Do you ever read romance? No.
I'm about to. My mother was a Danielle. She was a Danielle Steele girly. So it's in my blood. Let's go for it. I've heard this book is very polarizing and that people love it and hate it. So I'm really excited to get to talk about it. Listen, I aspire to be polarizing. So let's do it.
Well, thank you so much for being here, Sam. I'm so glad we did this. It's about time, your friend. Listeners, y'all don't know, the last time I saw Tracy, she cooked me a full meal at her house in her backyard. It was delightful. I owe you one. Thank you. Well, I'll get you. We'll do something. Everyone else, we will see you in the stacks.
All right, y'all. That does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening. And thank you again to the wonderful Sam Sanders. Don't forget, Sam will be back on August 30th to discuss the novel You Made a Fool of Death with Your Beauty by Akwaeke Emezi for the Stacks Book Club. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com slash the stacks and join the Stacks Pack. Make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you're listening through Apple Podcasts, be sure to leave us a rating and a review.
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