Vibe Check LIVE! Featuring Penn Badgley
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Hey listeners, what you're about to hear is audio from our live show in New York City featuring Penn Badgley. Shout out to Penn. He's just wonderful, so smart, and he has a brilliant heart. There's an intelligence to the way he thinks about love and compassion that is just so great. Thank you again to the team at 9-2-NY. We had a blast and we hope to come to a city near you soon. Stay tuned. Yeah, let us know if you want us to come to your city. But until then, enjoy this one.

Hello, New York. Hello, ladies.

Oh my God, there's so many people. There's so many people. Let me move this mug of water out of the way and move my wine closer. Which is water for us. Just as a heads up, we are hungover. We are very hungover. We got to Boston last night for our first show, which was amazing. Really great. Boston's no longer racist because we were there. We solved it. It was amazing. And we arrived and I said, Saeed Jones, I'm not drinking. And Saeed Jones said, yes, you are. There's a margarita down the street. I said, you got me fucked up. Yeah.

So we began drinking a lot of margaritas before the show. One margarita and a... Yeah, that song. But we're here. We're so excited to be here for our very first live show that's going to be recorded and out later this year. So thank you for being here tonight with us. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Oh, y'all are so beautiful. Y'all are so beautiful. You know, low bar I know for podcast audiences, but our audience is very attractive. We're hot. Y'all are fucking hot. Okay, I'll say that.

But I guess we should get into this gig and do it officially. Yes, officially we should do this. I'm Saeed Jones. And I'm Zach Stafford. And you are listening to Vibe Check.

So one thing I want to say about the theme music that I love is, so we were asked for feedback about theme music for the show two weeks before Break My Soul came out. And I was like, you know, this is a podcast, three black queer men, a lot of relationships to the Midwest, of course, where house music comes from. And then two weeks later, I was like, see, Beyonce gets it. Yeah. She was in our group chat. Y'all don't know that. Oh, yeah. But...

With that, you probably want to know what we're doing tonight, besides trolling Penn Badgley, which we're really excited about. But we want to begin tonight. We had this whole idea before we got on the road of what we were going to talk about, what the topic was going to be, and they all got thrown out. Because I texted Saeed yesterday, before we were drinking. Oh, I was drinking when you texted me. You were drinking when you were drinking. Yeah.

And they really wanted us to talk about loneliness. And I was like, oh my God, it's pride. Why do I have to talk about loneliness again? Again. Again, again, again. And I said, you know what I want to talk about, Saeed? Delusion. I said, bitch.

And it is an ode to our dear friend, Kimberly Drew, who has been texting me, I think she's here today, delusionally for a year now. And she has just been an inspiration to me. So tonight we're going to talk about delusion, the power of it, and when you girls need to check out of your delusions. Yeah. And then we're going to have a conversation with Penn Badgley. But before we get into that, Saeed Jones, beyond being hungover, how are you today? Um,

I'm good. I mean, first of all, I was saying when I was backstage, I've been coming to, into NY since I was in graduate school. This room, this stage, is where I was able to see Toni Morrison in person for the first time. I am just...

you know, I was, and it was, this was, I was in graduate school, this was like probably fall, I think, of 2008. I think A Mercy might have been the book that she was here to talk about. And it was like Beyonce tickets. You know, it was like I saw the announcements, you know, wherever it was posted, probably on Facebook. And I just remember I bought four tickets as a graduate student, you know, spending money, four tickets without even talking to, I was like, I'll find people.

I'll find people. I went to Rutgers, Newark, and it was just so funny because I, you know, I'm not from this part of the country, and I didn't understand the New Jersey, New York divide. It's real. I was like, okay, I got three extra tickets to see Toni Morrison. I'm in an MFA program. I'm studying creative writing. It was like pulling teeth. Everyone was like, we have class

I was like, what do you think? I told the professor, I'm going to see Toni Morrison. I was like, you know, how many Nobel Prizes do you have? Zero, probably. Zero. Is there something she said that night that has really influenced you today? Well, one, I remember, yeah, like the book signing space. I remember she had her fur coat thrown over the piano. Yeah. Yeah. Love that. It was her calmness. And I think a lot of people remark upon this. You know, Toni Morrison was the kind of person an interviewer would say, you know, you're one of the greatest writers.

novelists alive and she would just go

You know what I mean? And it was earned. It's the truth. Two plus two equals four. And, you know, Jordan Morrison was a great American writer, still is. And there was just something about seeing a black woman who has lived through what she lived through calmly accepting that truth. And I think that's what stays with me. Yeah. That also reminds me of when Whoopi Goldberg looked at Beyonce at The View and said, you are Beyonce. And she said, thank you.

Thank you. What a compliment. What a compliment. I am Beyonce. Yeah. So my vibe is I just, you know, what a delight to go from, I think I was sitting up there, you know, in the rafters and I'm sitting on stage. Delusion works, honey. Delusion works. It works. It works.

We're here to tell you the good word. Delusion works. Yeah, he was like, you want to talk to a delusion? I was like, bitch, I'm a poet. Of course we can talk about delusion. He said to me, he goes, my poems are delusion. And I was like, what? Yeah, I have a whole theory on it. Yeah, so that's my vibe. I'm just, I'm honored. I'm delighted. I am proud during Pride Month. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What's your vibe? My vibe is...

but tired. But I'm excited because this pride, I feel like I'm in like the backseat of pride. I used to before we did the show, I was the editor-in-chief of The Advocate and I was like gay for pay for many, many years. Still gay for pay in some ways. Not the way you're thinking. Okay, this happens all the time when we're recording. Zach is very fast with his jokes and so I'll miss something until I'm listening on Wednesday and I'm like, did this bitch say gay for

I did. He, this week was like, he came to Boston. He goes, Sunday boyfriend. I had one. I was like, I do have a Sunday boyfriend. Because he looked at me so crazy when I said I used to have Sunday boyfriends before I was in a very serious relationship. Like in the pre-times, my Chicago days, I would have a Sunday boyfriend. It was just a day long boyfriend. And Saeed Jones goes, what is that? Came to Boston, said, girl, I've had many. And I said, I know you have. I have seen them.

So, anyway, but this year it feels like my life isn't as corporate pride as it used to be, which is nice. So when I'm hungover, like I am right now, and I wake up tomorrow, I don't have to do much besides do the things that I want to do, which is going to Dyke March tomorrow. And I mean, to be clear, you know, yeah. And I mean, he's saying this in the context of someone who was the first black editor of The Advocate magazine. Yeah.

The first. You're right. Gay for pay. Yeah, I was the first and I was the last. So, you know, that's the problem with those firsts. And there's media. That is media for you. Anna Wintour, are you... How you... Edward Ennifil is in the room. Anna.

I don't know. Law Roach, got any thoughts on that? Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. Oh, my God. Wow, we're going to be messy. I'm going to have to continually remind myself that this will be... Yes, it will be live. Yeah. Okay, it's fine. It's being live-streamed right now. It's fine. And Anna Wintour does have Google, so, you know, I... Anyway, I'm now shook beyond belief.

Well, so then if you don't have to perform or like professionalize, you know, I was an LGBT editor in a newsroom and I know what that feels like. I was like, if someone, if I see one more fucking bottle of absolute vodka, I'm going to scream. Um,

My desk would just, they just kept coming. They wouldn't go away. It makes you, being an editor of anything queer, makes you hate rainbows. Like, it storms and you don't want to look outside. You're like, I can't look. There may be a rainbow. I think Mariah Carey is the only person who seems to actually have a positive relationship to that. And she deserves. Well, she makes so much damn money from it. Listen. Yeah. She is the gay GDP. But yeah, yeah. But how do you, so you're just relaxed, easy? I think my version of Pride Now is relaxed.

being relaxed, not going to pride. I go to the marches still. I show up, but I don't need to make it so corporate and everything. So I like to do things like this with y'all now where we get to talk about real things. I love that. You deserve. Thank you. I'm sure we're going to be talking about pride all night, but let us first say happy pride, New York City. Thank you to the black trans women. Thank you to the sex workers. Amen. Thank you to the unhoused people. Thank you to our elders and our ancestors who rioted at Stonewall for six

Days and nights. Six days and nights. It wasn't always a parade, baby, and we need to remember that. Amen. Yes, I love a good... All right, look, I like a little church banter. All right, I see you, baby. I love that. You are black and we grew up in the South, so you can talk to us. And of course, since this is a recording, we do have to say, of course, thank you for being here with us in New York City, live and in person. Thank you.

Thank you for the emails, the DMs, the tweets. We love it. Oh, this is a moment. Since we're talking about pride, let me drag white gay men for a moment. While we're here, I got an email. I'm not going to name his name. Sorry, don't say his name. Don't say his name. I got an email from a passionate listener of 5Check.

Who said, first of all, and my friend Ellen, if she's here. Hey, yay, hi, baby. I think I showed Ellen this email. One was like, you know, padam, padam, the fact that it hasn't charted yet, which is what we talked about with Sam, what, a week or so ago. He was like, has nothing to do with its cultural impact. And his examples were, and this is why I just, I have to, his examples were, he was like, for example, Mad Men and The Sopranos were not like the highest, you know, like numbers of their time. And I'm like, so padam, padam is...

It's the Don Draper of Gay Club Draper. It's the Betty Draper, yeah, yeah. All right, I guess we'll check back next summer. But thank you for your emails and your feedback. And you can always, of course, stay in touch with us, vibecheckatstitcher.com. But now that I have dragged at least one-fourth of the audience...

I love you. Really. You say the things I think and don't say. Yeah. And probably wouldn't say because my mother's always, like, hanging around somewhere. Love your mom. Love your mom. But let's jump in, shall we? Let's do it. It's good music, right? It's good. It's good.

Shimmy, yes. Shimmy a little bit. I love her theme music. I love the little camera clicks. It's very good. It's very good. Anyway, okay, so we are going to talk about delusion, delulu, as I like to call it. And so something I've been thinking about is often, of course, when we think about delusion, which is defined essentially as having a false

false relationship to reality, a false belief about either yourself or your external environment despite incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, right? And so, you know, generally I think we say that's not good. It's not good to be delusional, but life is hard. Yeah.

And I'm always thinking about how life is asking so much more of us. And so, like, what else can I tap into, you know, not just to survive and thrive? And so I was like, well, can delusion be productive? Yeah. That's where we're starting. That's where we're starting. And for us, you know, delusion is on a spectrum like many things. And the delusion we're talking about is the delusion we see on TikTok. An example, we wanted to play. Yeah, you already know where we're going with this. People who think the Chipotle guy is flirting with you because he gave you extra rice. No, girl. No.

He's not flirting with you. He just put rice. Maybe. Maybe. But I don't know if I'd flirt with someone that's eating a Chipotle bowl as someone who eats a lot of Chipotle bowls. Because I fame... Oh, wait. One of my claim to fame. You don't know this or may know this. Very excited for wherever. My first claim to fame in life, I wrote for Huffington Post and I coined two terms. Top privilege, which is privilege that tops have in gay sex.

Because they don't have to prepare. Bitch, that's just called patriarchy. Continue. Yes. But that was the essay. But within the essay, I said, everyone knows that if you're a bottom, you cannot have Chipotle before sex. Or you can. Or you can. That could be a very different kind of experience for everyone. That could be a different type of experience for you. And to this day, people come up to me and say, you make me think about Chipotle differently every time.

So, anyway. I eat a salad every time I think of you, Zach. Yeah, yeah. Oh, there we go. But no, this is the type of delusion we're talking about. It's like when you have these moments where you romanticize life, where you are seeing someone across the bar and you're like, they're looking at me. I feel so pretty. And you're using this moment to hype yourself up.

up. And that's where we really want to take delusion today is about that self-fantasy, that self-actualization that happens around you because we know it's a really wonderful thing. And someone I was thinking a lot about today, and he's actually the reason, not the reason, but the beginnings of our podcast, was Andre Leon Talley. Yes. Speak to Anna Wintour.

Angelina Talley, who passed away, delusional queen, love her to death. But she was so delusional that she said, "I, as a black, fat, queer person from the South, deserve to be in fashion, even though they're going to be super racist to me. Not even see me as valuable, underpay me, but no matter all of that reality around me, I'm going to create fantasy to push me through these spaces and create a life that's bigger and bigger and bigger." And it worked for him.

And he was one of our first conversations on NPR that launched the show. And I feel like he's the type of delusion we want to talk about today. So Saeed, as a black person, is there any delusion that you've used to kind of rocket yourself through this life that you've lived? Yeah, I mean, so to talk about like as a writer, first of all, you have to be delusional. I'm not just a writer, a poet. I'm able to like, and look, it worked, bitch. I pay my bills reading poems. Know me.

But yeah, I think as a black queer person, I didn't, you know, I think sometimes we like intuitively understand things. We might not logically understand it. But I think on some part of me, it was like, no one's going to, like, no one's ever going to hold a gun to my head and say, Saeed, you've got to write a poem today. Yeah. You know, no one was going to say, Saeed,

Now you can do it. Now you're a real writer. Like at some point, especially early on as an artist, right, you just have to believe. You have to believe. And that got me into my writing classes. That got me into my MFA program. And then more significantly, when I was just teaching, working and teaching in Newark, New Jersey, teaching ninth and twelfth grade English, and I was just so exhausted.

so exhausted. Every day, I couldn't read, I couldn't do anything when I'd get home, but I realized, I was like, I'm going to wake up one day and haven't written a poem, I'll never write that first book, and that will be akin to a soul death for me. That's unacceptable. So for me, like an example of the delusion was, I knew by the time I got home I wouldn't be able to read a book or write, but for an entire semester I would pick a different poetry collection off my shelf every morning and just have it in my bag with me at work. It was just there. I

I think maybe twice I was able to open it up during like a lunch break and read a poem. But more times than not, it was like this private understanding of who I am.

who I was with me. You know what I mean? And I think, yeah, it was like, I am a teacher. I love my students. My students were incredible. It's always the adults that are the problem. I loved my students, but I was like, but I'm a writer. I'm a writer who is teaching right now. Yeah. I love that because writers, when I was an editor, I would say the craziest job that you can have in the world is to be a writer because you wake up every day and fail all day long. And that's the process of writing. I mean, no, the craziest job you can do is like working for Elon Musk. Well, that's actually...

For the purposes of this talk, I'm saying. Got it, got it. But yeah, that's a wild job to take if you work for Elon Musk. Is there an example of productive delusion? And I guess when I say productive, you know, delusion could be like, you know, your life is falling apart, everything is bad, and the delusion may be today is going to be a better day.

Yeah. Today is going to be a better day. It can be like a kind of American beauty Annette Bening. I will sell this house. But also, you know, so it's like, you know, survival, hope, but also, you know, where it can kind of move you to another part of your life. Yeah. Yeah. I got really excited when I said that. Yes. I had this, and I shared this with you yesterday. The example that came to me was

I was once 21. That was a while ago. And it was Lollapalooza weekend in Chicago. And I did not have tickets to Lollapalooza because I was broke. So I stuck into a club that was having an after party for Lollapalooza. And at this club, Lindsay Lohan was DJing. If you know anything about me on the show, I love a rich white woman. Like I... Yes. That's why I'm so excited Penn Badger's here because he has a lot of rich white women in his life in his shows. Yes.

But I really wanted to meet Lindsay Lohan for some reason. I don't know why. So I told the bouncer, I walked up to the bouncer at the DJ booth, and I said, hi, my name is Zach Stafford. I'm with GQ. Girl, I was not with GQ. And he said, oh, yeah. I was like, I just need to take photos of Lindsay and the other folks in here for a spread with my iPhone at the time. It's not the iPhone we have today. This is like old iPhone, first iPhone. They let me in.

And I then, in this moment, yeah, shaking. Lindsay Lohan, hi, I'm Zach Stafford with GQ. Don't Google it. I then, what happens when you lie like that, and part of this is delusion, is you got to take a little bit of truth. Because I was a writer, I was a blogger. I didn't work for GQ, but I could imagine that for myself. And in that moment, I enacted what I thought a GQ journalist did at the time. And I got my time with Lindsay. But then they looked at me like, aren't you going to take pictures of other people now?

I had to spend the whole evening taking pictures of girls who were delusional in their dresses hanging out with Lindsay Lohan. But in that moment, I was so inspired by the power you get within media, this being able to tell a story, to be in a space, to document it, to pay witness to something happening, even if it's a Lollapalooza event. And I knew I wanted to be a writer, so I began pitching these outlets that I obsessed over. And I got so many no's. So no's that I could build a house with.

And I would use these no's to figure out how to get a yes. So I pitched the New Yorker. I literally pitched the New Yorker as an undergrad. They were like, hell no. And I was like, why? And they told me why. So I kept that in a document. I pitched GQ. They told me no. I kept it in a document. And that led me to eventually getting published. And from there, I kept building because I used all these no's that kind of rocked my delusion and built a yes out of it. So it does lead somewhere sometimes. Yeah.

It makes me think of the poet Nikki Finney. She won, a black queer southern writer, won the National Book Award a few years ago. And I got to take a writing workshop with her. This was 2012, so she must have won it the previous year. And you can find it online. She gave a beautiful acceptance speech that she'd already written.

And it was very beautiful, but also some people, because writers are, you know, writers, always looking for their angle to have something to say, you know. And some people were like, oh, you wrote your speech already? That's a little arrogant. That's a little, you know what I mean? Because that's the other thing, right? Like there's a relationship, I think, between delusion and determination, confidence, right? And so it was so interesting because she brought it up in the workshop and she was like, yeah, I got this criticism. And she said, you know, there are moments in your life where a door is going to open.

And that door only opens for a few seconds. And she said, if you don't already have something in your hands, why walk through? And I just think about that all the time because I think that is something, you know, like productive to delusion, giving ourselves hope, particularly, I guess, frankly, as black queer people. You know, we are, you're looking at two black gay men in America who statistically should not be alive.

right? So the incontrovertible evidence is basically America. It is our government. It is the very concept of our country says that Zach and Saeed should not be able to comfortably be here having this conversation, right? And so delusion is also just like literally kind of swimming upstream saying, no, I have something in my hand. Yeah. And I think, and we're seeing that evidence of what you're pointing to

in these attacks on drag queens around the country. Yeah. Drag queens are my favorite delusions. They're delusional girls. You think that's why they're so afraid of drag queens? Yes. And trans people? Yes. Non-binary people? Yes, yes, yes, yes. What I think Alok told this to me a long time ago, years ago, Alok Vaidyananda, amazing writer, activist who's been on the stage too, Alok said to me, and now said it publicly, that people are so afraid of trans people and gender non-conforming people because they're so free. Mm.

And we had a deep conversation about it, and Loco was like, yeah, think about it. You got these cis guys who grew up in a world that said you got to do this, you got to wear this, you got to walk like this, and you see someone not doing it and being happy, and you were told you had to do all of that to be happy and you're not. So you're angry and you're reacting from that state. A lot of bitterness. A lot of bitterness. And I think what I learned when I was in college faking being a GQ journalist, I was...

I was actually working on a documentary as an intern that got coffee and did all the bullshit work on that about effeminate gay men in America called 50 Faggots. So I was with drag queens constantly in 2008. And they were creating fantasy out of... They weren't paid anything. They were on welfare, but they were having to create a fantasy at night and create these moments for people. And what I think they offer us is that...

no matter how hard life is, you can find joy, and that joy can be the thing that releases you. I mean, Beyonce talks about that in Break My Soul. It's really like you may quit your job, you may be going through the worst, but you can dance and find joy in that. So I do think these Republicans look at drag as this expansive freedom, and they need to consolidate it because that delusion is actually making people realize that the delusion that is America isn't real. Yes, yes for that.

I know we need to move on, but just one more example, as you were saying that, in thinking of Ballroom and thinking of the Peer Kids and documentaries like Paris is Burning or shows like Pose, and I just think of MJ Rodriguez's award-winning performance as Blanca, in the opening season, that whole story, her delusion is, I am a mother. Isn't that beautiful?

I am a mother. I am going to create a family no matter what, no matter the incontrovertible evidence of my circumstance, you know? And so I also want to offer that it's, it's not necessarily just about believing in yourself. It's also like also the, the productive delusion of believing in your capacity, right?

to create a home for other people in this world. I think that's really noble. Yeah, and we have to use delusion right now so much because there are delusional people, Ron DeSantis, Donald Trump, who's... There are delusional people doing yoga on the top of the Edge building when it's like the sky... I'm like, girl, it looks like fucking Blade Runner. Why are you doing a sun salutation? Girl, get inside. When there's no sun, yeah. Put on a mask. That is dark. People...

But yes, to your point, the yogis on the building and Donald Trump, same people. Yes, those people are living delusionally. And their delusion is harming so many of us. If you're black, you're queer, you're a woman, you're trans, all these things. And that delusion can only be combated with your own delusion. So I think we need to release our delusion. Lie to more men this summer. Lie to men forever. It's what they deserve.

And so we're going to take a break for now. But actually, I realize when we come back, we're going to talk with Penn Batchelor about a different kind of delusion. We'll be right back.

This message is brought to you by McDonald's. Did you know only 7.3% of American fashion designers are Black? Well, McDonald's 2024 Change Leaders Program is ready to change the face of fashion. The innovative program awards a monetary grant to five emerging Black American designers and pairs each with an industry professional to help them elevate their brands.

I know specifically and distinctly how McDonald's can support and empower not just black Gen Z, but black people. My first job was McDonald's. I learned a lot there about customer service and how to relate to people. I still love that place and go there very often. Look out for the change of fashion designers and mentors.

at events like the BET Awards and the Essence Festival of Culture. And follow the journey of the 2024 McDonald's Change Leaders on their Instagram page, WeAreGolden.

Here's an HIV pill dilemma for you. Picture the scene. There's a rooftop sunset with fairy lights and you're vibing with friends. You remember you've got to take your HIV pill. Important, yes, but the fun moment is gone. Did you know there's a long-acting treatment option available? So catch the sunset and keep the party going. Visit pillfreehiv.com today to learn more. Brought to you by Veve Healthcare.

We're so excited to welcome to the stage today to talk to us about all the things. How to stalk men, how to kill men, how to hide men, all these things, yeah. So welcome, Penn Badgley, everybody. Thank you. Penn whispered in my ear. I just want to say that I would not eat Chipotle before any type of sex. Oh, okay. There's actually almost nothing I would eat Chipotle before. Can you? Stay cool. Wow, you plunged us like this immediately. I was like, well, what?

passionately having it. Okay, go on. Here is a delusion, Chipotle. Why is that delusional? Because I think it's really healthy. That's been my delusion. It's not. Oh, where's Craig? That is a delusion. Chipotle is not a sponsor of the podcast Vibe Check or Podcrush. It's also not very cheap.

Yeah, tea. That's a little bit of a delusion. Can we go on? I love the idea of Chipotle being like the jumping off point for class warfare. It's so expensive. We need to talk about this. I mean, yeah. You could enter into any point and we could get there. Wow, okay. Well, Penn, before we get to the actual first question. Let's talk about my show. We could get to class warfare. No, but I want to ask you, what is your food of choice? Um...

If it's going to be fast food, I guess it would probably be McDonald's. But, I mean, we're talking fast food here, right? And it's like there's something, even when I didn't have money, I didn't like it. You know what I did then was Taco Bell. But I would not go back. I eat Taco Bell now. But you eat Taco Bell when you're drunk. I was like, Taco Bell is a little more stressful than Chipotle. Well, Chipotle didn't exist then. You eat Taco Bell, set a timer, honey. Yeah, yeah. That's...

You're renting that meal. I... Saeed Jones. The restaurant Unleashed? I was like, yeah, so Penn's going to come out and we're going to talk about Zadie Smith and the culture of fame. We're like, girl, let's talk about GI issues. Yeah. Anyway. Inflammation.

Well, let's start here. Can you think of an example for yourself where you had like a productive delusion? Something where like either it helped you. Dude, being an actor. Okay, I figure. That's delusion on top of delusion on top of delusion. And there's so many reflected delusions. There's not...

I mean, statistically speaking, no one makes it. Even if you are the whitest of white manly men, I mean, you know, you're just still, statistically speaking, you've failed once you've gone to so-called Hollywood. And so, I mean, it's just... And even as you continue to make it, like, you know, this idea that, you know, if you just get that one project, then you can do what you want. Yeah. I've been doing that for 25 years, you know, and it's all quite delusional, you know? Yeah.

Now that said, I really like what you guys are doing. You're recasting the word. You're redefining it. I actually think what you're talking about is a reality in the face... I mean, that is what you're saying, clearly. It's a beautiful, poetic thing. Thank you. I have my moments. Thank you, Penn Badgley. That'll be the next book blurb. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I think you're talking about glimpses of reality in the face of a giant, violent delusion, which is many aspects of our culture, but...

Yeah, being an actor is quite delusional. It's really, really, really, really delusional. And then, you know, you have these beautiful moments where you glimpse something quite profound. Even playing this absurd romantic serial killer, you know, it's fully delusional. Yeah, he's quite charming.

Yeah, his delusion is charming. Yeah, yeah. I mean, so that's its own thing. I mean, I've gone on record many times saying this. I don't think it's going to surprise anybody. I mean, he's never meant to have been a clinical portrayal of a serial killer, right? He's like, he's much more of a construct to represent all of our toxic misconceptions of love and how if you follow that logic, they become...

Well, you realize we're not talking about love. We're talking about possession. Yeah. You know, we're talking about objectification, control, and so therefore that kind of... What's the end of that? Is a box. And then what's the end of a box? Is you suffocate, and I'm already thinking of submersible...

We can't do it. We can't do it. We can't do it. We can go there. We can't do it. Do you want to talk about subs? All types of subs. I feel like I don't have the... I've already been trying so hard. So hard not to. We can get it out of our system. It's in fact quite difficult. Yeah. To not talk about it. Also, what I will say, if it's any comfort, my thing that I keep reminding myself when I think of this is I do think it is moral to mock wild hubris.

Yeah. Like, allegories and parables exist for a reason because we're supposed to go like, you don't want to do that. Yeah. That's a bad idea. I mean, Jesus, it was called the Titan. And I said this, but as a Greek mythology expert, which is to say, a faggot. T-T-T-T-T-T-T. Yeah. Yeah.

Y'all understand that all gay men read Greek mythology. Zeus, Hades, and Poseidon imprisoned the Titans at the bottom of the sea after they fight. Is that true? Yes. Even Disney has it in the Hercules movie. It's a whole movie, yes. Yes. Big plot point in the movie, yeah. When do we say thoughts and prayers? When do we say it? I was saying we're going to hell, but we're already there. Yeah.

Hell is just climate change. I want to keep going on this love thread that you're pulling out. Oh, great. Was I pulling out a love thread? I came out and said Chipotle. Love. You're being considerate. You said you don't eat Chipotle before anything, so I'm saying let's get married. Okay, okay. But no, what I love about you, the show, not you. Not me. Is...

I love you, but I love you. Do you get that pun a lot? Like, is that just like an ongoing? That pronoun joke is so... Talk about you. So dead to me. It's... I mean, it just... You should go to J.K. Rowling and be like, you know who's sick of pronouns? Happy Pride. Yeah, that was it. Wow. Yeah, um...

I feel like we're doing this is what happens when Sam's not here we're just like all over the place what happens I what was I talking about I okay I have a question love troll okay I'll just get to the point pin your fans are delusional yes they true love a serial killer why

And how does it feel? How does it feel? Well, so I've thought about this. I will try not to stare into what is like a black abyss because the lights are so bright. And I will try to look into your faces, which will keep me on track. But it's deep, you know, because look, statistically speaking, let's talk about statistics a lot. Always bring those into the conversation. I love statistics. I don't know what they are, but I know that like being killed by...

I know that being killed by a serial killer is statistically, like, it's low, you know? It's like sharks and lightning and airplanes are more... Orcas. Far more likely. Orcas. Yes, especially now, yeah. Yes. So, you know, the disproportionate fear of serial killers signifies, of course, an obsession. Now, it's not for nothing...

true crime as a genre is, look, I'm trying to produce things in the delusion that is Hollywood right now. And, um,

if you want to make something, like make something true crime. Like you know that it will get sold. Like right away. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's still hard, no doubt. And there's still versions of that that are made that are very good. But as a genre, you just know that it sells. And we know that it's a predominantly female audience consuming that kind of content. You know, and who is the victim of a serial killer, but often a woman. I'm saying what a few people in the audience are remembering. It's white women's business, right?

It feels that way. What is the real... See? I know the answer. I wonder, because there's something. Okay, one, it's like Joe is a serial killer who also has all of these fans who are attracted to him. But also, true crime, right, is this very popular genre. Yeah. And like a large demographic of those fans are women. Huge. What's going on? What's the triangle between gender, race... Oh, man.

Well, I mean, I really could. We could just. You went from statistics to geometry. Yeah, right. And I didn't even graduate high school. Man, remember we said before, it's like you could, how do you get into that? Because it's a lot. What I think about in it actually is our conception of power, as we think about power. Now, I just said now, like I really know what I'm talking about.

Delusion. There you go. Yeah, it's a delusion. Yes, thank you. Delusion got me here. It's going to keep me going. I think that people, at least in the case of my show, it helps me, you know, I get feedback. And a lot of people have said, I'll try not to like spoil the end of this season, but there is something that happens where people are like, oh, you know, he's finally kind of embraced his

who he truly is, and there's this connotation that there's power in that. And I think the truth is, we see a serial killer as somehow being, now I'm saying this because I don't think so, right? But I'm going to say it, and then if it's taken out of context, I will have to do a lot of explaining.

but that they're confident. They're doing something that is actually somehow like they're stepping past so many social thresholds and they're doing something that is, they're making a decision to take another person's life, which is a decision that, you know, not that many people make. And we see that as, yeah, I mean, yeah, okay, yes. I realized as I said it, I was like, what are the statistics on that? Look, I'm intentionally, you know, just holding.

the mic down so I can shut up. We have a guest. Like, you forgot what country you're in, friend. Yeah, right. So, yes, there are many levels to that. I'm well aware. But, you know, the manner in which a serial killer kills is distinct. I think?

Think or know. Between the three of us, if anyone would know, it'd be you. Yeah, you would be the one. As though I have done research, sir, I am delusional. I'd get in front of that camera. No. I think it's because we, as a delusional society, and we meaning like this sort of white male default perspective, we see power as power over. Yes. Now, that's not the same as power to. Power to is mutual. Right.

is mutualism. Power over is competition. And these are the operating systems, like you can't really believe that both are equally powerful. And actually, if you really break it down logically, power over is a small subset. Power two is, if you can empower someone while you are gaining power,

that's far more powerful. If power is something that you have to take from somebody, well, then that's kind of pathetic, and it's smaller. So I think the serial killer mythology comes from a really narrow and sad but prevalent conception that power is something to be jealously guarded and stolen and coveted.

Bars. Bars for Mr. Penn Batchley. So within that, you can talk about race, gender, and class all you want, you know? It's like it's all, it's a pyramid. Yeah. I don't know. So that's why I wanted to finish. No, that was good. You landed the plane. Yeah, I did. It's a Denzel Washington flight. Like, only the few that should try. I was like, Penn, I have a parachute. I need to cut him off. You got us there. You got us there.

Well, my follow-up to that, I love that beautiful framework that you're offering us around serial killers, why we obsess over them, because true crime is a huge content area across podcasts, television, et cetera. And a lot of it, there's been lots of theories to why. One of them is that we're all very anxious. I'm very anxious. You all seem anxious. You listen to podcasts. Um,

Look and say, y'all seem anxious. Y'all seem anxious, yeah. I, you know, I see. I see my girls. And it does allow us to kind of work through some of our anxieties, seeing people make decisions that we think we would never make. Yeah. Ever. But what I really want to know is, like, why is it that people with your characters, specifically Joe, they want to be treated like Joe treats these women? And what does that say about our ideas of love within that power structure? Because I looked at... The tweets are... Yeah, aggressive. Yeah.

It's intense. It's a... Wow. It's one thing to be like, oh, Joe Goldberg, he's a really compelling character. He's kind of hot on screen or whatever. It's a very different thing. I don't even want to say some of the things I saw people tweet. Yeah. And it's always like, it's about this character to you. That's not going on. Well, there's...

Yeah, it's weird. It's weird. How many people can stand in front of a billboard with their face on it that says you? To them. It's like, that's me. And it says you. Still you. That's a strange, yeah, really strange, just having to fight the narcissism off every day with the, you know...

Well, I feel similarly about power as I do love. I think we have so many misconceptions that aren't actually it. So we've dropped a lot of incredible authors today. One, Bell Hooks, wrote I think in 2000, which is very recently, All About Love, New Visions. This is something that I thought because it was so canon and so iconic that somehow it had been...

absorbed culturally and I, through osmosis, had received its teachings and I was like, yeah, I just wasn't interested in it. I'd seen it plenty of times. I picked it up recently and I'm just like, this is still being ignored. This is still like, so she basically, very early on in the book, you don't have to get very far.

clarifies that most of what we define as love is actually something called cathexis, which is investing feelings and emotions in someone or something. But that love, and she takes the definition from earlier research, but she uses it throughout much of the book, is the will to extend oneself for the sake of one's own or another's spiritual growth. And, you know...

That is not like the way that we tell stories around love, mostly. It's not like the fairy tale. No, not at all. And, you know, and the feelings that we associate with love have a lot more to do with like the hit of a chemical substance that you need because you're soothing from trauma.

It's like a drug hit. Yeah, yeah, you know, and that is what we characterize as love is really more like an unhealthy coping mechanism, you know, because we live in such a delusional society. Can I go on? Look, this white man almost got an amen from you. Let me slow the fuck down. I was like creeping out of Saeed's throat. Yeah, I'm...

So really, I mean, I think like when we talk about love, we're not really talking about love. Right. We're actually not talking about love. Like we're talking about something that is a delusion. And it's a cultural level delusion like so many of them.

And then, of course, because we live in such a white male-dominant patriarchy, everybody other than what is perceived as a white man is receiving different degrees of consumption. So this really intense thing that's happening culturally is that, I say this with sensitivity, but I feel like we are selling women's trauma back to them.

- Ooh, that was an amen out there, yes. - Girl, yes. - Yes, yeah. - Not Penn Bashley taking us to church. - Yeah, I'm sorry. I was nervous before I said it. - My soul looked back and wondered how that got over. My God. But damn. - Not for damn.

I'm shook. Okay, wait, wait, okay. Go ahead, come back. I have a few more questions before we let you go. I have to ask you about Zadie Smith. Please. It's a delight to hear you speaking about bell hooks and other writers. And Zadie Smith is a writer. I love Zadie Smith. Yeah, can you just, what is it that you love about her writing?

Hers was the first novel that I finished in a long time. Is that White Teeth or Swing Time? No, Swing Time. And it happened to be while I was in London shooting the last season that I've shot. Not the last season of the show. Netflix has snipers. Netflix PR is right there. I felt elated. I got nervous for you. We spoke about the Titan not three days ago.

But I'm like, it's the last season. Netflix is sniping us. Yeah, they would come down.

Zadie Smith. Yeah, what is it? I'm not sure, to be honest. You recommend her essay on Justin Bieber? Yeah. Oh, that's right. I do love that. I do love that. I was thinking of her more as a novelist, but yes, actually, that is the thing that opened me up to her. I mean, she wrote about really fame and celebrity and what it says about all of us as opposed to just the famous. She wrote about that in an essay. I don't remember the title of it, but what she's doing is she's connecting Justin Bieber as a modern icon of, like, you know, the love object. Mm-hmm.

She starts out with Michael Jackson and quickly goes to Bieber and spends a lot of time on Bieber. And then she connects it to a philosopher, Martin Buber, who is... And it's brilliant, by the way. What she does is like... It's like, oh, Bieber, but... It's so good. She plays with the last names. And now I'm going to stumble over this, and I feel like you two can help me because I've been sticking it all night, but I think this is the one... You did a great job, Penn Badgley. You did a great job. You get a freebie. This is the one we're all for. Um...

So it is deep and I'm not going to be able to recall it. I'm not going to be able to recall it. It's pretty much, I think what we found interesting about the piece, because I hadn't seen the essay until you talked about it in an interview that we were reading. So you guys, oh, we haven't read this. Pin Badgley taught us something, so we read it. And I think the big part of it was about Justin Bieber. Does he even know, what does his body feel like with all this fame?

She says, like, with that kind of fame, does it even still feel like you're a person? Right. And I have to say, like, look, I speak about this openly, not ever complaining. I just want to be clear about that. The specter of fame looks down on us all. We live in a celebrity-obsessed culture, you know, no doubt. And it's a symptom of delusion. You know, it is. Absolutely. Absolutely.

I am one of the few people who's on the other side of the line that exists, but I'm witnessing the same phenomenon. So I get to see the inner workings in a different way. That's all, you know, it's just, and, and by the way, everyone else on the other side of the line is probably able to put it into a better perspective than I often am because I'm constantly like,

exhausted by the inner machinations of it. But yeah, I feel like a lot of times it's an incredibly dehumanizing experience. But for instance, right now, this does not feel that way at all. To have an authentic conversation and to have authentic response, that's phenomenal. And the appreciation that some people might show in any given moment is lovely. The case-by-case, the particular, can be lovely. What becomes universally true, though, over time, statistically, is...

Is something that she's speaking about. And I think like how many more icons do we need to see either take their own lives or die through overdose or just become crazy? Or, you know, how many more do we need to see to be like, that's a pretty good case study, you know? That's a pretty good case study on what this does to an individual. And I personally feel like I'm just in this sort of the lower dimension

basin of something towards the upper echelon so I get to see a lot of it and I experience it but it certainly I know what it takes for me to stay grounded I mean whatever that means but like you know for me to be able to come up here and drop bars what it takes is like I mean there are times you know I actually was thinking before I came on I was like if they ask me how I am

You know, because sometimes I will, and again, it's a distinction between venting or complaining or like trying to bear witness to a phenomenon, right? And so I have to say that it is something that takes a whole lot of energy.

A whole lot of energy that I don't really think any one person is meant to process, to consume, to have to transmute in order to maintain some kind of authenticity. So I think in a more just society, we absolutely would not have celebrity. Like, just period. Just period. And if I could sacrifice mine for one small step towards that, like, happily, I'd just...

Don't exactly know how to do that yet. Labor organizer, radicalist, so about celebrity. We love that. Sure, yeah. So I have a question from someone in the audience, an excellent question that I think relates to kind of something you're very passionate about. And then I have a petty question. Please. I'm so excited. Please. It's taken everything I had not to spill the beans on this one. I got it. It came. I've been mulling on it.

This question comes from Justine Smith, an NYU music business student. Okay. Get out, get out, get out, get out, get out, get out, get out, get out, get out. I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I'm kidding. I was trying to like read the question. What she's asking that I think is really interesting about the idea of getting into character when performing.

She said essentially like as a director, because you've directed at least one episode of this season of you. One, only one. Yeah, and I know you work as a producer and you make a project. So we know what it's like or have some sense, I guess, you know, the sense of you getting into character. What's it like getting into the mode of the director? How does persona and character come into play when you're doing that work?

Is that you waving over there? Oh, I just did! It's amazing how hard it is to see. Yeah, you can't see anything. You really can't see that far. I really wish you well in your career, by the way. The business of anything is tough, right? I can't believe you said get out, get out. I know, that's wrong. Are you Jordan Peele? Directing. It was, for this particular role, because I'm already like, it's such a technical...

role where, you know, the whole point is that you're sort of in Joe's head and seeing through his eyes all the time. So it's far more technical in nature and the things that I have to do on set are just not typically what you would do as an actor. Like, I have to be conscious of every moving part in a way. It's just, you know...

And then there's the voiceover. So you don't talk very much. No, not, no. It's, it's unbelievable. Like you really can't feel how little I speak on camera until you watch the show with that knowledge that like, he actually doesn't speak when you look at him. There's a TikTok that shows scenes from you with your, your narration taken out. And it's, it's just, it's boring. It's just like, this dude is, that's a serial killer right there. That is like, make no mistake. Um,

So, but directing was great because I actually like... So you can hear a little bit how my mind works. Like, it was great because I was just all hands on deck, didn't need to think really about anything, you know? It was just like...

It kind of made playing Joe easier, actually, to be honest. The preparation was very difficult. You know, so much of the work as a director is prep. I mean, it's like, I'm trying to look... I'm nodding like I don't know what the fuck you're saying. It's so... Makes sense. I mean, it's... The work on set is a product of the prep that you've been able to do. I was not able to do hardly maybe 30% of the prep that a television director would normally get to do because I was shooting the episode before that one. But I've been doing like four seasons of prep in a week.

So I felt like I was kind of at the top of my game, but I was in London without my family there for that period. If they had been there, I would have not seen them and they would have been in London for nothing. And it was like so extreme. It's another one of the extreme delusions of our industry that you can like keep doing that forever, you know? It was an incredible opportunity that I really loved. I do not think I will direct an episode of television again. I will be directing...

Other things, but not... Television. I don't think so. The infrastructure of television is tough. It's just like you start behind. The first six in the morning, it's like, all right, we got to go. And I mean, it's a boring part of the answer, but it's true.

Saeed, before we let him go, can we unleash the Kraken of your question? Penn has some sense of what I'm about to talk to him about. I recently went on vacation with Sam and Zach and several of our friends and my boyfriend in London to see Beyonce Memorial Day weekend. It was great. She's incredible. The last day of our vacation, my boyfriend decided to cheat on me.

Yeah. That feels planned. Literally the last day. I already left the country. How long was the vacation? Yeah. How long? Last day of the vacation. How long were we dating? About two years? Yeah. Oh my goodness. I'm sorry. I mean, we're probably about to make some jokes, right? Oh, it's going to get funny. Oh, it's going to get real funny. I'm sorry. It's funny that no one's in jail right now, honestly. And how recent? How recent? This was a month ago, maybe? Two weeks ago? That's hard. I was like, how should I deal with this? I was like, I know what I'll do.

Yes. Who said that? Is that? Yes. That was wonderful. It was a great delivery. Our last night of, also, could you imagine doing this to Saeed Jones? Yeah. Yeah.

Which is to say, could you imagine doing this to a memoirist? The last night of our vacation, I was having drinks with our friend Brandon, who's here in the audience tonight, and I got back to the hotel and I couldn't open the door because my boyfriend had a man in the room. Yeah. And tried to get me to join them. Yeah. So... And didn't unlock the door, which I said you didn't break the door, and you said... I was like, I don't love him enough to break the door. What?

There we go. I think in some intuitive, you know, I'm still processing and stuff. I'm not trying to put a brave face, but in that moment, you feel something in your body. Yeah. Because, yeah, you're right. I was like, I don't know. It was like the moment I, there was nothing in my body that made me want to break through that door and say, how dare you? He wasn't my man anymore at the moment he did that. Yeah. And I'm grateful. What useful information. So my question is, so we were in a...

So my question is, and this was in London, and as it turns out, I was also dating a sociopath. See, it all tracks. There's a reason why we're asking Tim Bachelet. We're in a long-distance relationship. He lives here in New York, and I live back in Columbus, Ohio. A lot of his stuff is still at my apartment. Tim Bachelet. Should I destroy his stuff? And if yes, how? We have a professional serial killer. Thank you. Mwah. Uh...

The temperature in the room. For people listening who are not here at 92NY, I need you to understand, the chemistry of the room has changed dramatically. I feel like what it did was it consummated the bond. Yeah. Everybody's just like, burn it! I mean, what things? Shoes, shirts. Ugly shoes, ugly shirts.

I'm a terrible person to ask fun questions to because I start to think about it very practically. Okay. Like, where are you going to burn it? But no, that's why we're asking you. It's Ohio. There's a lot of room. I mean, so, okay. And so because I'm reading bell hooks all about love and new visions, I'm just thinking about how much we all really hurt and how much in our culture we avoid that pain.

and how much of our culture is defined by distracting ourselves from that pain at all costs. You know this. I mean, so here's the difficult truth is that whatever you do with it, at some point it's going to have to pass through your hands. Lord. Don't stop, Penn. Please don't stop. And... Pass through my hands, bitch. Those words just passed through my body.

Wow. And like you said, that moment that you discovered he was no longer your man, I think that's, once they pass through your hands, they're no longer anything you need to worry about. You're making us better people. My God. I said burn it and break the door down. I was like, girl, the standard hotel would have been burned down in London. Arson, yes.

Yeah, I mean, I obviously get that totally. But yeah, I just think like No Joke had a couple nights in a row, a string of connected dreams, like super intense. And they all were, I cannot believe I'm sharing this on stage. This is a safe space. It does feel that way. Yes. I was thinking about, it's very intellectual sounding, but I felt it. I

I felt it the way you can feel it in a dream. And I woke up and I was like, like with whiteness and maleness. And it's going to connect. You know, just like all the violence there. And in some parallel fantasy world where like it happens to not be white men, it's some other socially constructed idea of a particular color of skin. And it's like some other gender, whatever. It's just, you know, if that was the power construct...

But what would be consistent is the violence. What would be consistent is the negation of feeling. What would be consistent is the avoidance of intimacy and the lack of love, ultimately. And the first step towards love, which is, I think, contained within that is, of course, healing and many, many other things, is to actually witness and accept and bear how you have not had love. That's hard for all of us. But the sooner we do that...

is the sooner we have love, you know? And so, I told you not to ask me a fun question.

I love this. I love it. It actually took us to the mouth of the cup. You know, we can... It's like, you know, so there's levels to it. It's like there's the fun meme response, right? And then there's like, well, what are you left with at the end of every day? Of course, you don't want to belabor it, but it's like I wonder if you were to pick up one of these objects and let yourself, even just in your nervous system, like just let yourself feel...

the loss and the and i'm sorry to say this on stage in front of people but like i've been betrayed before most people have the betrayal betrayal is a unique form of pain yeah and a unique form of violence yes it is and you know you have to feel it and and amen thank you

Someone said you have to feel it and then burn it. Yeah, and then burn it. Read bell hooks and then burn it. You know, that's a great note to end on. I will say, you know who does burn things ritually? Who? Joe Goldberg. And that's why we asked. Well, Penn, thank you. A man. Thank you. A woman. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, thank you. I never did.

Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Thank you, Penn. Wow.

I really thought asking a serial killer what to do with a man that betrayed you would have been a lot more satisfying. I love it. That was beautiful. I almost cried. He knows. He's like, I don't have to do it because he's like, as soon as this event opens, the doors are going to open and an army of Vibe Check listeners are going to be unleashed on the city of New York. Okay, we're going to take a quick break where we're all going to write down at least two things that Penn Bashley said because he was dropping bars. Yeah.

He said, when it passed through your hands. Well, we'll be right back.

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On their Instagram page, we are golden. You were made to travel the world and the seven seas and countless lakes and innumerable rivers and one perfect pond. Get travel ideas from Chad GPT on Expedia. Made to travel. Oh my God, my sister's here. Oh my God. Is my little sister Monet? Why are you here? She doesn't live here. Oh my God.

I just made my whole day. Sweetie, thanks. Wait, my sister heard me talk about Chipotle? Oh, God. That is really something. Wow. Ooh, we're doing this one. Okay. Okay. So someone writes in, how do I break away from a guy that ghosts but randomly keeps returning? Yeah, let's block them. Who said that? Y'all are healed. Healed. Healed.

Therapy. Hooks. Therapy, honey. It's healing. Yeah, I think he's going to keep walking through that door as long as that door's unlocked. So lock it. Yeah. It's very much that fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice, shame on whatever. That thing. Yeah, me either. Yeah, if he keeps returning, you've left the door open too long, close it. Please, God. You get to ask the next one. I'm not picking right now. So the question was, is it only essentially productive delusion when black people believe in ourselves? Wow. Yeah.

I can't speak for other people. I guess what I will say is the thing about black people and our relationship to, and I love that he was like, no, it's like actually this delusion is actually like your relationship to the truth in contrast to the falseness, right? Like borders, I realize, are delusion. 100%. I think the thing about black people and productive delusion is America will never let us forget. Yeah.

what it is willing to, has done, and wants to do any chance it gets. Like we know it so pointedly, right? And none of us know it better than like black trans women, for example. So I think that's why maybe it's a little bit easier for us to define the value of productive delusion because it's like we have these like barbed wire guardrails, right?

around us. Now, if you are a very wealthy cis white person, yeah, your relationship to privilege, I guess that's what I'm trying to say, right? Your relationship to privilege is really going to inform

how you navigate that. Because my thing is, I think delusion, it can only be productive when it's in your body. I think the moment your delusion is being inflicted, right, basically involving someone else, whether that's interpersonally or whether you are a teacher,

A parent who insists on misgendering their child, right? A school board member insisting on, you know what I mean? A president. Like, the moment that your delusion is about other people and that privilege, I think that's when it, like, harm is being caused. Yeah, 100%. And black people, it's not that we can't cause harm. It's not that we cannot cause harm. But I just think, generally speaking, it's like... Yeah. It's hard to answer that question without acknowledging that black people...

like Saeed and I, are here because of delusion of colonizers, people who arrived in Africa and ripped folks, our ancestors, away to be part of the delusion of what their empire was going to be. And believed what they were doing was noble. Yeah, noble and right and good for the world. And it makes me think a lot about Octavia Butler's writing and how she offers us that black people are from the future because it was an alien experience for white people from Europe to come in with children

ships and technologies and to rip us and to bring us to a place where we had to create community and family. So I think when we talk about black delusion, you know, we have to first address the fact that we are living every day in the delusion of white supremacy.

and that we have to find a way to breathe within all that. And once we do that, then we can begin to dream. And that's why we just love black people, black women so much and the power that they have because they're caring so much and yet they're able to take on more. And I think if delusion allows you that capacity to carry more, then yeah, you should have to believe. I will be able to make it home safely tonight. Yeah.

and effort and hope and resilience and delusion has to be stitched into that belief because we are very aware of just how many of us don't make it home safely night after night. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Woo. - Well, thank you for that question. - That's a beautiful question. Beautiful question. One more? - Yeah. - One more before we go into New York and set shit ablaze. I mean, thoughtfully.

You all, let me say, all these questions are about relationships. And I'm going to say, lie to that man or leave that man for a lot of these. One second, let me read. Yeah. Someone writes, I read recently that when you like a flower, you pick it, but when you love a flower, you water it. What do you all think about that?

I like that. Right? I like that. I mean, I love that, but do you, is that how you practice friendship, I guess, or love? Would you say that's a good definition of love for you? And beauty is like the color purple. Like you can't just walk by the color purple. You have to acknowledge. Yeah. Yeah, because I think it's to witness the flower and not decide to cut it off means that you are receiving the gift.

and giving other people the opportunity to receive the gift, right? And I think Toni Morrison spoke really important, like that beauty is a necessity. So yeah, we can use it as a metaphor, but yeah, I think, yeah, let those flowers stay. Take a picture. Look at it for a moment and move on, but you don't need to like, you know, snatch it away. Yeah, and I would add that like, and this ties into Penn Badgley, honestly, is that when you love someone and you're not a serial killer, right?

You don't need to take over their body. You don't need to take their agency away from them. You don't need to stop them on their own journey, on their own growth, all these other things. So when you see a flower that you love, you should make sure that has the resources, the air, the space, everything it needs to survive. And you also leaving it in that pot, the grass, wherever, is acknowledging that it was beautiful before you were there and it will be beautiful when you leave. And that's a process of life. Yeah, what I heard in some, I mean, penises,

so keen. What I heard, you know, kind of woven through so much of what he was saying about power and, like, control, right? And the power to do something and the power to do... Yeah. Is that capitalism really has us fucked up in the games.

And it's not just about business and economics. I think capitalism, the idea of commodities, possession, what can I extract from this? I think it has really poisoned our perception of things like friendships.

of things like love. I think that's what he was trying to say. Like, do you love that person or are you trying to control that person? I think a lot about like with celebrity, I think, for example, part of the problem is that, you know, to idolize someone is to dehumanize them.

It's very hard to genuinely care for someone if you are putting them on a pedestal. The moment they're on a pedestal, they are a commodity. Even if you think your relationship to it is positive, it's not human anymore. I think that's the idea of that. I think we need to... It's beautiful. How do we interact with this beauty?

in a way that can grow, that can blossom, that can continue. And that beauty could be a literal flower, or it could be a friendship, or it could be a person. It can be a child. So many people in this country clearly are actually parents, not because they want to bring another life into this world and nurture that life, but because they want to play God.

They want to be a fascist with the full power that comes with parental rights, right? They are more interested in having a captive flower, right, that they can contort like a little bonsai plant and do whatever they want to to it.

Right? And that's what you see where people basically, it's very clear. A lot of these parents, when we talk about like queer kids and pronouns, it's very clear many of them would rather their children die than their children have the opportunity. And you said this the other day that part of it, they don't even want their kids to play. Right?

Yeah. Right? Like a lot of, I think, identity stuff when you're younger, I'm not trying to denigrate, you know, the validity of young people's identities, but also it's like experimentation, play, trying on a new pronoun, trying on a new name, a gender, seeing how it feels to go by they, then. Maybe you change your mind, maybe you stick with it. I think that's perfectly human. Yeah.

But they would rather have their children be little carbon copies of themselves and their lack, as he was saying, their lack of love, than them actually be people. Yeah. I will...

I'm really shook. I am very. I'm like weirdly emotional. I saw my sister. I talked about Chipotle. Penn Badgley was here. There's a lot that's happened. A lot has happened tonight. But I did not think I would walk away from tonight thinking about love and how we can all look at how we love people and use that to understand our own framework in which we maybe are dealing with control, desire, jealousy, all these things. But think about how you're loving someone. Are you snipping the flower or are you letting it go?

grow by itself. And what does that say about you? That's really something today. Love lives in your life. Yeah, how love lives and how you let love live outside of your life. Yeah. Well, with that, I need a drink. Thank you so, so, so, so, so much. That's our show. That is our show. Thank you to everyone, really. I can't even say. Thank you.

Thank you for honoring us with your presence tonight. Thank you, 9-2-N-Y. Thank you, Penn Badgley. We love you. Yes. Thank you. Stitcher.

Thank you.

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