You Go High, You Go Low, and Then You Go Home
42:31 Share

Bienvenidos, chicas. Hi. I'm Latavia. Who are y'all? I'm Michelle. Ain't a bridge I'm afraid to run across. And I'm Kelly. Chantel is Beyonce. And Chantel is Beyonce. Know her. I'm also Sam Sanders. I'm Saeed Jones. And I'm also Zach Stafford. Yes, and you are listening to Vibe Check. ♪♪

This week, we're going to talk about domestic terrorism and the police and the federal government and how all of these things may be our biggest national threat that we're just not actually talking about. And also, we're going to be talking about that GMA scandal, but we're going to go a little further with it and talk about how it's making us all think about the state of marriage and sex in America right now. So I'm very excited. You know, we got terrorism, we got sex. It's everything you need before you go home for Christmas, y'all.

It's giving heated by Beyonce. It's giving everything. Everything. Rage. Well, before we jump into all that, how are we all doing today? Sam, how are you doing? Because I just saw you last night. So I feel like I have your physical energy on me. But how are you doing now after being with each other? That sounded a lot more sexy than it was. I mean, I got it. The aura. The energy transference.

Energy transfer. We both were hanging out last night at the premiere of FX's Kindred. Oh, man. I really enjoyed that pilot. It was really good. I had been hearing things from Vulture folks, seeing things online. I was like, let me see for myself. I saw it in the room with the creatives there. And they did a really good job. I think the question for me with that show is like, there's a lot of

physical trauma in the plot. So it's like, how much can I withstand? That said, I love the characters. I love how it looks. I love how it feels. So we'll see. Yeah. I need to reread it. But yeah, it's a...

There are aspects of the plot that are like, you just can't get around. I don't know how they could soften a lot of the trauma of Octavia Butler's writing. They don't soften it. There was a moment where we like, lights came on. We watched a pilot. I was sitting with a lot of the creative team. We both were sitting with lots of different parts of the creative team. And I was with the head makeup artist. And he was like, ooh, child, now we have to drink after that. Yeah. So one of the editors was at my table. And afterwards I was like...

How many times did you have to watch this stuff over and over and over again? And he was like, I stopped counting. But it is really good. So I'm feeling good because of that. I'm also feeling really good because a chat that I told you all about a few episodes ago was finally live in the podcast feed for Intuit. I got to interview Cheryl Lee Ralph in the flesh a few weeks ago. The chat's up now. Wherever you get your podcasts, go to Intuit. It is the episode that came out this Tuesday, December 6th.

It's the most fun I've had all year. Y'all know how I feel about her and Abbott and everything she's ever done. It was giving very Super Soul Sunday, so I'm just like riding that high. I'm excited. I've been catching up with this season of Abbott Elementary, and I love the work they're doing with Cheryl Lee Ralph's character. And I just got to the episode where Ava actually very gently calls Miss Howard out about slut-shaming.

And it was just such a rich deepening of her character. And I just really, gosh, Quinta Brunson and that team, man. They're doing it. She's doing it. They're doing it. All right. I'm excited to listen to that conversation. That'd be good. So overall, feeling good. Kindred, Cheryl, we stan. We stan. Saeed, how are you doing? Ciao.

Chow, you know, it is gloomy. It is gloomy and foggy here in Columbus. But also, I just feel everything's so pointed lately. And I think that's kind of probably going to be one of the themes of today's episode. But, you know, as we're recording this, it is Tuesday afternoon, which means that when this episode airs, hopefully we will know about the results out of the Georgia runoff election for the Senate race between Raphael Warnock and Herschel Walker. And I just...

It's such a mess. It's such a mess. You know what I mean? It's just like this thing, and I understand Democrats already have control of the Senate. A lot more is at stake. There are huge implications in terms of committees, and Kamala Harris doesn't have to stay on Capitol Hill all the time to break ties. She can go out and do whatever it is she does. No, keep her on the Hill. Keep her on the Hill. Y'all keep her at home. I'm like, actually, maybe that's for the best. I just spit my coffee. Okay.

Leave that lady alone. But I've been thinking about what's become just everyday part of American life is like you're going about your business. Things are fine, like in terms of right in front of you. But you know that like at the back of your mind, you're like,

But what if Herschel Walker becomes senator? Like that is such – like he is such – he is white supremacy's cudgel. He is a weapon that white supremacy wants to use, and he's a poke in our face. He's insulting all of us on all levels. Or like knowing like the Supreme Court just heard that case about like freedom of expression, and it will definitely curtail LGBTQ rights. Oh, the wedding cake again. The wedding cake out of Colorado. We're still doing that.

And it's like the woman. And again, it's like this pointed thing where it's so annoying. This person hasn't even actually started to design the websites for weddings. She's just like, hypothetically, I don't want to have to be put in a situation where maybe someday in the future. Like what? Yeah. It just feels like there's this energy of like constant crisis. Yeah. You get over one hurdle. There's another three. Yeah.

Seeming right under the surface all the time. So I'm like, I'm fine. You know, it's whatever. But it's just annoying. I'm tired of having to live by looking over my shoulder. I think that's kind of what I'm thinking about. Zach, how about you? I'm good. But hearing about that woman, I want her to hypothetically go to hell because that is just so annoying to me. It's so annoying! Anyway, to your point and your question, I'm

I'm good. And what's really helping me get through today is that last night when we were at FX, and I haven't even told anyone this part, but when we were all sitting there, I looked behind me at my table, and there was a man not far from us. Sam, he was behind you. And he and I made eye contact, and all of my late teens, early 20s wet dreams came true. Because who was looking me in the eye was Ryan Quantin.

From True Blood. From True Blood? From True Blood. He was the himbo brother of Sookie. Mm-hmm. Oh. Is he in the show? Wait, wait, wait. He is in the show. Oh, no. Well, that's not good. Oh, he was there. Yes. He was there. He was there. He's in the show. He is a slave owner, which really- I was about- I got all excited, and I was like, wait a minute. So, Saeed, we live in the contradiction sometimes in our lives because we may- What?

What's this we stuff? Don't put me in it, baby. Don't put me in it. Because it was before the show started and I had met all the cast before and didn't know who was who and who played what. So when we made eye contact, I was like, oh my God. And of course, like Craig is next to me. So of course, like, I'm like, oh my God, I'm here with my actual man. And this was my dream man back in the day. What a rollercoaster. The show starts and then I realized he's Masa and it ruined everything for me. So anyway, I'm just glad for a brief moment in time. I,

I was like, oh my God, I have arrived. I'm here. And then it just fell apart. So anyway, that's life. You go high, you go low, and then you go home. And now here we are. Is it the kinder premiere or is it slave play? Who knows? Who knows?

So anyway, watch Kindred. There's that. Watch the show. All right. Before we get into the episode, we, of course, per usual, got to thank all of you who listen and send us fan mail and reach out on social media. We love to hear from each of you. Keep the messages coming. We are at vibecheckatstitcher.com. Vibecheckatstitcher.com. With that.

Chicas, let's begin. Ayudomay. Let's go. Ayudomay? Yes. Ayudomay. All right. So to kick things off, as we said, everything is happening everywhere all at once. You leave Michelle Yeoh out of this. You know, it's a lot. A lot is going on. And we wanted to, frankly, get to the real because it's crazy.

It's scary out here, right? So days after Q nightclub victims were laid to rest in Colorado, a local chapter of the white supremacist group Proud Boys announced their intention to protest the Holly Drag Storytime event being held at a church here in Columbus, Ohio, where I live, on Saturday, December 3rd.

The event was organized by a local elementary school and would have featured three drag queens reading children's stories and performing holiday songs. Just lovely. How did the weekend go, you might ask? Well, organizers canceled the event after reaching out to the Columbus Police Department. And basically they were made to feel that the cops were like, we can't assure that you'll be safe, which is like not.

Obviously not what you want to hear. And again, this is an event at a church organized by an elementary school. So I'm sure they were like, oh my goodness, this is really scary. And so they canceled the event. On Saturday, dozens of members of the Proud Boys and another white supremacist group, the Patriot Front, showed up anyway. And it was like numbers maybe in the 50s. Many people were armed. They were wearing tactical gear. Very intimidating. Very scary. This was not a protest.

A Columbus police officer was then videotaped high-fiving a member of the Proud Boys after allegedly being complimented on his mustache. That's what the cop said. He said, he said something nice about my mustache, and I gave him a high-five. Parents were there and confronted them. And one parent was like, what are you doing? Why would you high-five these people? And the cop said, I'm here to protect the right of these people to protest. Wow.

Wow. You can imagine how that went over. People are very upset. I'm one of those people. I am very angry about this. And then last night, police chief Elaine Bryant posted a video statement stating, quote, we understand how this might make community members feel. However, this was not done to show solidarity, but an attempt to diffuse a tense situation.

And just two quotes, two quotes that I want to leave us with before I turn it over to y'all. One, one parent said, yeah, I understand, you know, freedom of expression. Everyone has a right to protest. Okay, but like, you can just not high five a white supremacist. That's what one parent said. And then Cheryl Ryan, a manager of the elementary school that was trying to host this event said, quote, it turns out our biggest problem wasn't the Proud Boys after all.

So let's talk about domestic terrorism because I think what we're seeing with this incident is that it's not just necessarily groups like the Proud Boys and the Patriot Front. It's their relationship to the state. It's their relationship to police departments.

Well, and I think the through line I see with all of this, with attacks on drag queens, with attacks on trans people, with attacks on people of Asian descent, with attacks on Jewish people, it is all connected. And it's all about the greatest threat facing Americans right now. And that is domestic terrorism from far right white nationalists. Yep.

Anti-Asian hate, anti-Black racism, misogyny, transphobia, anti-queer ideology, that is all connected in white nationalism. And all those hatreds spew from that doctrine. And by every measure in the last several years, all of those kinds of hate crimes have increased. So what you're seeing in Ohio is not an outlier. It's part of a larger trend. Right.

Just for instance, hate crimes were up 70% last month in New York City compared to the same month a year earlier. And the biggest part of that jump was anti-Jewish attacks, which rose 125%.

In Colorado, after several years of falling numbers of hate crimes, that state experienced more hate crimes on record in 2021 than in any year in that state's history. In 2022, this year is already the third worst year on record for hate crimes in Colorado. And so with all of this, all the federal data says that after hitting a low point in 2015, hate crimes across the country have been up ever since. Wow.

What happened around 2015, 2016? Our national politics took a really, really sharp turn to the nasty with Donald Trump. And what I hope that we have in these conversations about these hate crimes happening all across the country, I hope we connect dots and understand that this stuff is directly affected and impacted and exacerbated by political rhetoric. The things politicians say affects what these crazies do. It is connected.

It's totally connected. And I want to underscore all those stats with, for example, the incident that took place this weekend would not figure into those stats, right? It was not considered a crime. But I'm like, at the point at which elementary school children and queer people and parents in a community don't feel safe to show up at a holiday event, right?

That's too far. That's a problem. You know what I mean? And so we also have to consider, yes, that's the data that's being reported. But it's all undercounting. It's undercounted. It's underreported. It doesn't include the threats. Something else that we have to talk about, because to Sam's points he's making, we have seen federal hate crime stats become a real thing. In 2013, 2014, we see them actually start investing and trying to count.

And it wasn't until news outlets like the Washington Post, the Guardian, where I was stationed at the time, when we began holding them accountable by tracking police shootings because they weren't even tracking them. So we've seen it change and we're seeing more and more numbers come. And we still know federal hate crimes are deeply undercounted to this day. So the fact that they're rising is really frightening because it's probably 3x that at least problem. But

But something that we're not talking about every time one of these incidents happens and why what Saeed, what you're bringing up is so important about this high five is that without fail, whenever there is a hate crime and hate incident, there is a cop that understands and humanizes with the perpetrator of the event. And we have so many points to look at. We have Dylan Roof getting a Burger King after shooting up the church. We have the insurrectionist on January 6th with Michael Riley at Capitol Hill office.

telling some of them to delete Facebook posts because he understood why they did it. Helping them cover up their tracks. Helping them cover up. And what we have to talk about, and Kindred, I didn't even think about this, is a great pop culture moment that you can watch to see where this history kind of entangles itself, is that the police force in the United States is a direct connection to slave patrols

In the 1800s, when slavery was found to be unconstitutional, was changing and people were becoming free, slave patrols were there to monitor enslaved people that had not gotten free. And that is the beginning of the United States police force. So from the beginning, we've always seen white supremacists literally as part of the kind of safety patrol of our country. And it's about destroying black people. So you can't untangle this thing. You can't. And it's so well documented. As far back in 2006,

The FBI warned that white supremacists were infiltrating police departments across the country. By all measures, we see it. There was an analysis by Reuters from this year. They found at least 15 self-ID law enforcement trainers and retired police instructors in a database of the Oath Keepers. It's out in the open. It's there. It's blatant.

I do wonder though, for all of us, it's like when you see these things, when you see these numbers, when you connect these dots, what do you do as an average citizen besides vote? What do you actually do? Yeah.

It's getting so critical. I just saw that Jinx Monsoon, a very famous drag queen from RuPaul's Drag Race, has now hired private security to be with her at shows because she's so afraid of being attacked. And the reason why she's having to hire security, and she has not said this, I'm assuming, is because what is she going to do, call 911 when certain police are not helping drag queens in these incidents? Exactly.

they're having to, you know, work harder to make more money to hire their own private security because they can't use the police because they don't trust them. And that's just with everyone, whether a drag queen, a black person, a trans person, synagogue, all of them. Has an armed guard in front of it. Exactly. All days of the week. You know, and I do think it's time for,

all Americans to actually question what we can do to stop this violence. And if we agree that this violence is tied to violent rhetoric, there's a few things I think that we as Americans can do every day

Are you supporting politicians who turn up the rhetoric or turn down the rhetoric? That's for starters, right? Are you calling out friends and loved ones and family and coworkers when they dial up this hateful rhetoric? You got to call it out where you see it. And are you involved in your local community

to work to turn down the rhetoric. We see all across the country, the craziest of the crazies, the most hate-filled people, infiltrating school boards, community councils, people who are sane and rational and want love in this country should be doing the same thing. And it's like, how can we in our everyday lives

endorse narratives that push back against this stuff. I think we see these events on the national news and think it's far away from us. And we think that all we can do is just vote every two years or four years, but we can be active in our community every day to forcefully fight this hate.

Sorry to get all PSA after school special. No. Like it's real. It's real. Let's stay there. Let's stay at the community level. I think one thing we can do is just pay attention to what's going on in your community. Support local journalists, you know, people who are doing that work, trying to get the work out. And it's, you know, people are using sub stacks and small newsletters to try to support community information. We need to know what's going on literally in our neighborhoods.

and also more broadly. And this is a theme I've been circling back to for a few weeks now.

Let's be real about the representation trap. The chief of the Columbus Police Department is a black woman who worked in the city of Detroit for years before coming here in the last couple of years. She was hired in the wake of the 2020 protests. And this is the person who is making excuses for cops high-fiving Nazis. Also, another example of local politics, the president of Columbus's city council

is a black gay man who is younger than me. And you might think, again, if you buy into the representation trap, that like, wow, what a powerful ally to have, particularly at this moment. And listen, I know Twitter isn't everything, but it's something. It sure is. This man hasn't tweeted, period, since November 23rd.

And the last mention I saw, the last thing I saw you even had to say about this was him retweeting an official statement from the Columbus City Council's account. Like literally, a black gay man is the president of the city council where something like this happens. Nazis are literally attacking gay community events and

and can't even be bothered so much to write 280 characters about it. So it's important for us, again, to get real. It's not just about people who look like us. It's people who believe we deserve to live. Yeah. And it's about pushing back against just incorrect narratives. So we've just pointed out all of these hate crimes that are increasing. But a lot of mainstream news outlets would have you think the biggest wave of crime right now is petty urban crime. Urban, in quotes. It's not that.

They would have you think it's like Eric Adams being like, oh, we just need to forcefully hospitalize homeless people. And that will solve all of our problems. Don't buy it, y'all. Yeah. And what's so sad is that whenever I hear stories around, you know, drag shows, whether it's Columbus or smaller towns in North Carolina or wherever,

I get so excited as a queer person from the South to be like, wow, that is really brave of these people to organize a drag show. I never saw a drag show in my small town in Tennessee. But the fact that like they're doing that, which is brave, and then they may lose their lives or be hurt in a real way is...

is wild and the idea that like they should be more fearful in New York City like that's more violent than small town North Carolina is so sad so we have to shift our focus stop focusing on what Eric Adams is trying to drum up and really look at the communities that you live in because there's real things happening around your corner and they're worth fighting for also go to a drag show also that support your local drag queens support your local drag queens they're lovely and we love them all right we'll take a break for now stay tuned we'll be right back

All right, we are back and we are going to talk about good morning adultery. I had to make the joke. Twitter made the joke. And we're going to have to talk about why that joke is potentially not a good joke to make after next week. But, you know, we had to make it because we're going to explore this thing that has been happening in our lives. And thank you to all the people that tweeted at us saying you want us to talk about this. As if we did. People are literally like at like every development being like at the ferocity. You see that? Yeah, girl, I see it.

I'm just as messy as you, trust and believe. So, well, for those of you that maybe have a life and haven't been following the Daily Mail this week, let's break down what happened at Good Morning America on

On Wednesday, November 30th, the Daily Mail posted several affectionate photos of Good Morning America hosts TJ Holmes and Amy Robach. And let's just pause and say, not just several, dozens, high quality. 65. High quality. 65, high quality. 4K, baby. 4K. Someone hired a private investigator. Oh, absolutely. Those are private investigators. 100%. And what's also wild about this is that like TJ and Amy aren't, you know,

Robin Roberts. They aren't the host of Good Morning America. They're Hour 3. You probably have never watched Hour 3. GMA3 airs at 1 p.m. Eastern. To be very clear. Good morning afternoon. We are fully at work. Good morning afternoon.

We can't even get through this with a straight face. But here's where it gets messy. The hosts have been married to other people since 2010. That's 2010, 12 years ago. However, there have been conflicting reports on their relationship statuses. Some people say they've split. Some people don't know. We don't really know. All we know is that someone paid for a private investigator to follow them. And we would assume if we believe in the movies we watched, it was someone's wife or husband that did this. Come on.

When news broke, of course, the internet was digging and there was many cringy things to look at. One of which was the anniversary post on TJ's Instagram from 2020 where he wrote about his wife. Despite my best efforts, she has remained married to me the past 10 years. That's not hyperbole. I'm not being dramatic. I gave her plenty of reasons, excuses, and opportunities to walk her fine house out the door.

door. Sorry, I can't even finish this. Didn't he also say she's a black magic woman or some shit? Yeah, he was like, also, she used her black woman superpower to hold me down. It was like, I was like, girl, you should have divorced him then and there. It was, and I will say this on the record today, it was cheap. Take that Facebook post straight to the divorce attorney, girl.

Yep. And I will say this on the record for people who need to know this. This is peak light skin behavior. If you've ever heard that phrase, wondered what it was, this is it. Listen, as someone who lives in between the light skin, dark skin divide, I want to say...

All types of black folks can be messy. Yes. Okay. And does hyper-performative things that feel like they're at service for white people. But some tend to be messier than others. Yes. Yes. So in the Hall of Fame of light-skinned behaviors would be Drake, TJ, and Steve.

Stacey Dash. So this is where things get messy, and this is where we're going to keep watching the story as it develops. You know, the two have been taken off air. The head of ABC News has said it's not because of their affair, but because of potentially other things they're winking at. And those other things could actually be pretty bad, considering workplace environments and just code of ethics.

There are reports from various outlets that TJ has had a three-year affair with a GMA producer before his affair with Amy. And there are other reports that he had another one with a different producer. It's just like off and on. Three years is a long time. That's a relationship. Don't you get bored of affairs after a while? That's a relationship. Many people have gotten married and divorced well within the range of three years. I ain't been with my man three years. Look. That's a long time. Okay.

So, and all of this comes up, and this is where we want to take it for everyone. You know, this is our atmospheric moment, is that this story arrives in a moment in which marriage is definitely on the tips of everyone's tongues. We have U.S. politicians trying to codify same-sex marriage after the fall of Roe v. Wade by passing in the Senate just recently to hopefully codify interracial marriage and same-sex marriage in case the Supreme Court tries to

reverse that too. And also this week, Michelle Obama, while being on tour again for more work she's done in the world that is wonderful. She has a new book out. Yeah, she has a new book out. She was on stage with Tyler Perry and she talked about her marriage with Barack Obama, really going in on how like, even though this man may be magic or we may love him, things are not easy. She doesn't love him every day. And she took it further by talking about the larger context of their marriage and said, I am fascinated by how little we talk to young people, young adults,

about what it actually means to partner with somebody, which is what we're going to talk about today. It's just how hard marriage as a construct is and how much it isn't even real anymore. Well, this is the thing. You know, as soon as this scandal breaks about TJ Holmes and Amy, whatever her name is, and Good Morning America,

It's like the perfect vessel through which to discuss the fallacy and fantasy of marriage because morning show hosts are actually asked to on screen portray marriage. Yeah, they're kind of like America's work couple. They are. I think of when I was a kid.

Katie Couric and Matt Lauer were never together, but I sure did think they were, right? Morning TV, morning news TV sells us an image of marriage. So to see the TJ Holmes of it all happen, it's like, oh, ironic justice that it happens there. You know, I think a lot of what I'm asking myself right now when we look at someone like TJ Holmes, quote unquote, cheating is,

It's like, all right, his story is weird. There's probably more affairs than we know of right now, allegedly. But I do think in general, if at least half of people in marriages end up cheating or getting divorced—

Should we find something else to call it? To label it cheating all the time kind of goes against the reality that it's just a part of life for a lot of people. And is the framing around it and the idea of monogamy and non-monogamy in marriage, is it just increasingly not true to life? Yeah.

I mean, it's everywhere. No one pulled up to the ideal. Yeah, and I mean, just everything about how we talk about it, even in jest. Like, I was just thinking, I was like, oh, it's cuffing season. And I was like, wait, why do we call it cuffing season? Oh, because it's like handcuffs. Oh, because to be in a committed long-term relationship is like lockdown. Like, it's just everything about our culture is both like,

It's like two sides of the same coin, right? Both like obsessed with marriage as an ideal and also terrified by the fact that ultimately it's a financial agreement. It's a financial arrangement. It's about money. It's about legacy. It's about inheritance. It's about taxes.

that now also has all these cultural resonances. And it just, that's a lot of pressure for any person. Yeah. And I think where the pressure comes from is within the compulsory heterosexual imagination around marriage and love.

is that you meet someone and then it's complete. You found your other half. You are now whole. You now can be in the world. You don't have to worry about anything else. And that's just not the case. Any relationship, whether it's sexual, romantic, familial, whatever, is an ongoing conversation. That's why at work you have yearly reviews and you ask for raises or you leave your job. Same with friends. Sometimes you have seasons of friendships with people where you're really close with them and then you're not.

Sex and love and romance is the same. The marriage is something you have to work on. And that's why I like Michelle Obama and Barack Obama talking about it. Because they're always been good about being like, yeah, we look perfect, but things are not easy. Like this shit is really, really, really hard. And that's where I think marriage is falling apart is that people stop doing the work. They're just assuming everything is okay until it's not. Yeah.

My favorite voice on this topic, marriage and what it means and how we ask too much of it is probably Esther Perel. We all love her. But she's written about the phenomenon of cheating before and monogamy. And there's a quote from her in The Atlantic from about two years ago that I love. And it talks about...

how much we expect from marriage and how crazy it seems. She says, contained within the small circle of the wedding band are vastly contradictory ideas. We want our chosen one to offer stability, safety, predictability, and dependability. And we want that very same person to supply awe, mystery, adventure, and risk.

We expect comfort and edge, familiarity and novelty, continuity and surprise. We have conjured up a new Olympus where love will remain unconditional and intimacy enthralling and sex oh so exciting with one person for the long haul. And the long haul keeps getting longer. She makes it plain. We ask too much of this thing.

We ask too much of this thing. And even though TJ Holmes is the wrong vessel by which to question what marriage means. He's a fine vessel, though. He's a fine vessel. And I'm glad we're asking these questions. Like, what would it mean if straight men like TJ Holmes were able to enter a relationship and say, I don't think I'm actually a monogamist. I don't think it's for me. I think I love you, but I think I like getting my dick wet. What if people were just free to say that at the start of these partnerships before you sign the contract?

I want us to get to there as a nation. Will we ever get there? Yeah. And that's what the promise of same-sex marriage happening in 2015 is that what we saw immediately from the data, which you can review from the Williams Institute at UCLA, is that they saw once marriage passed and people started getting marriage licenses, that they were already forecasting more people

or longer-term marriages with queer folks than heterosexual people. But it's because we as queer people, like I remember when marriage passed, I never really thought about my wedding because I didn't think I'd ever have the same wedding that my sister could have. So when I engaged in relationships, it was always a conversation around civil unions, rules, monogamy, openness, everything, because we didn't have the same goal because we didn't really have a goal. We got to create our own goal.

And that's why as we've entered same-sex marriage legally, queer people are really productive because they're really okay with having complicated conversations because they never thought they'd have the ones that straight people had to have. And now that they're looking at them, they're like, girl, why would we just say that? Like, that's not possible. I go to the gym. I'm in the steam room. I know what happens.

And with that in mind, because we've mentioned Audrey and Rich several times, I thought it might be helpful to literally just go to her essay. So in 1980, poet Audrey and Rich published an essay titled Compulsory Heterosexuality and Lesbian Existence, where she basically put forward this theory that-

Compulsory heterosexuality is the theory that heterosexuality is assumed and enforced upon people by a patriarchal and heteronormative society. And so essentially it's kind of this idea like, are you straight because you're straight or are you straight because you've just been made to believe that that's the only viable option for you? And it's difficult to actually question that when it's constantly kind of being reinforced and enforced. And I would argue that there might also be like a compulsory monogamy going on.

Right. And, you know, sure. I think queer people have the potential to access liberation, like through the models that like Zach is talking about. I do think we are hopefully more prone to like be a little bit more open minded. But also I want to say that I think, you know, respectability is another trap where I think often LGBTQ people can be made to feel that like, oh, well, maybe if me and my partner present ourselves as the kind of like safe white picket

fence and we want a child and a golden retriever too will be safer.

And I think that's a different kind of aspect of like, you know, there are all kinds of reasons why people get married. But I also just think so much of it, it's very clear whether we're talking about the Obamas and the TJ Holmes of the world or whatever, it's often not about you and the other person. It's about the perceived onlookers, you know, and that's, I don't know, that's quite a burden. And like when I think about what Zach is saying about how queer marriage, same-sex marriage opens up possibilities for marriage, I think for me, it's,

The entire promise of being queer is that it represents possibility. If being heteronormative represents formula and a path which you follow, the very essence of being queer means that you let go of some of the rules and labels and do what works for you. Divergence. And for me, it's like that is not just my identity. It's like my worldview.

If I'm queer, how can I make all parts of my life truly fit me? And I think straight people would do really well if they took on some of that energy. Find what works for you. People are performing marriage because they think they have to perform it. You can make it whatever you want to make it. It's a contract. Write your own contract. Write your own contract. And I hope that people seeing this bullshit with TJ Holmes can just say, you know what?

I'm allowed to build the best relationship for me, no matter what anyone else says. Absolutely. And, you know, to like build on Sam Sanders, I just want to go back to the theorist and academic Jose Esteban Munoz, whose last book before he passed away, Cruising Utopia, gives us the thought of queerness being future, that it's a point that you'll never touch. It's a thing that you aim at.

And the reason why that's so important to me with queerness and queerness in marriage, queerness in work, is that it's a daily practice. You check in with yourself. You say, self, how am I feeling? Where is it placed in my body? Where am I feeling anxiety? Where am I not? And you just do that every day. You don't have to live by these rigid rules where you wake up and say, gender is this. Sex is this. I have to conform. I have to conform. You get to say, I get to live. And I get to make choice today. And that choice is shooting north towards queerness. And I think that's what people should do with me.

With marriage, with every relationship. I get to live. I love it. Yeah, just get to live. Just get to live every day and just be like, I'm here. Here it is. And what do I want out of this today? TJ, do you want some help getting to live? Girl, he's lived too much. We got to let him know. TJ needs to live more abundantly. Look, I am sure. TJ, I just, I need every listener to know that great effort has gone into restraint. Yes. Because he's a beautiful man. We don't know what he's doing. We don't know what his life about. But I think we can all agree. Yeah.

At least aesthetically. Maybe not morally, but at least that man is fine. Okay, I need a break. I need to go for a walk for a second. But you all don't go anywhere. We will be right back. We'll be right back.

We are back. You're listening to Vibe Check. And before we end the show, per usual, we each share something that's helping us keep our vibe right this week. We've got some recommendations. None of us are going to recommend TJ Holmes this week. I'll tell you that. Or GMA3. Sorry. Until he's back. Yeah. Yeah. Let's start with Saeed. What you got?

I don't know if you know this about me, but I have very strong opinions on coffee table books. Okay. You know this because I think many people do them wrong. I believe the purpose of a coffee – I mean, one, I hope it's a book you enjoy paging through yourself as the owner. But the function of a coffee table book, I believe, is to give your guests, particularly when maybe it's like someone who hasn't been to one of your house parties or dinner parties before. They show up.

early, you know, there's like that lag, they're alone, you've got to take a call for a second. It's to give them a bridge, to give them something to focus on and maybe have a conversation starter that can kind of get that momentum going, which is to say coffee table books should be interesting, provocative, delightful, and surprising. So I want to recommend one of my favorite new coffee table books.

Pandemonium by Ed Simon. It is a visual history of demonology. Sir. You see the delight? Look at that. It's perfect. It's this beautiful art book with photos and history and writing about demons. And I just wanted to quote something from the introduction. He says, whether demons exist or not, people's experience of them absolutely exist. The

So he's like looking into different cultures and histories and writings. And it's really interesting. And I think the reason today I've been gravitating, like so much of what we talk about in this podcast are like the clear and present dangers, right? The

billionaires, the white supremacists, fascists, like all of that, the literal Nazis, you know what I mean? And I just think there's actually kind of like a comfort

And like a literal demon. Like, I think there's actually like a comfort and a delight in being able to be like, wouldn't it be nice if they did just walk around with horns and pointed tails? But anyway, that's my recommendation. Okay. It's really beautiful. It looks pretty. It's also sizable. You know, use it as a weapon. That's a big old book. I think that's also good for coffee tasting. Okay. I love it. What about you, Zach?

So I'm going to recommend something I did not ever expect I'd recommend. And it is the movie Spoiler Alert that just came out last week with Jim Parsons and Ben Aldridge. So if you're not familiar with the movie or the book it was adapted from, the book is called Spoiler Alert, The Hero Dies at the End. Oh, okay. I have heard of the book. It's a book about two gay men who fall in love and one of them dies from complications from cancer. It's a very good trailer. Yeah, and there's a lot of content right now in the world about

whether it is Dead to Me on Netflix or From Scratch, which is about cancer, lots of cancer content. Don't know what's going on there, but for another episode. But spoiler alert, it ripped me apart in ways and made me laugh in ways that I had to step out of the theater at one moment. It was just too much. Because it is like, you begin with knowing that this person is going to die, which I love. So is it like, what's that Nicholas Sparks? It's like the notebook. Like it's like romantic tragedy. I don't know how you categorize that.

Yeah, it is. That's a good term. Romantic tragedy where you like see the beautiful love that gets you to this moment of like these people dying potentially together like in the notebook or one dies and one has to go on with their life. But it is just a really good container story of like, you know how this relationship ends. So let's just enjoy how it began. And it just proves that like queer stories similar to everything everywhere all at once like

do have an audience, can be really well done in a theater, and aren't defined by bros. So there we go. All right. I'll watch it. Well, Sam, what's your recommendation? So my recommendation is about a woman who's probably rich, but we love.

More Cheryl Lee Ralph. As I mentioned earlier, my conversation with her is up in the podcast feed for my Vulture show, Into It. But when I was talking to her on stage at Vulture Fest, I opened and had her walk on stage to her debut solo single from her solo album from 1984 called In the Evening. Like some dealer, close your eyes now.

Ooh. People forever. Cheryl Lee Ralph made a whole album of like disco techno pop in the 80s. The lead single was called In the Evening. I mean, that makes sense. It's kind of a bop. So I want listeners to go find that album. It's called In the Evening from 1984, my birth year. But once you play that Cheryl Lee Ralph album, also go check out her Christmas album, which like just came out this month. It's called Slay, period. This...

Come on, sis. If anyone was going to do that, it should be her. She's earned it. And let us not forget, Shelly Ralph was one of the first actors in Hollywood to really lean into fighting for HIV AIDS awareness. So she can take every queer catchphrase. She can do whatever she wants. She can do it all. Her HIV AIDS awareness organization is called Diva. She's always been here for the queers. We love her. We stan. She's got two albums. That's my rec. Go check them out. That's a good rec. I'm into it. Yeah.

All right, listeners, tell us how you're feeling, what's keeping your vibe right. Give us some recommendations. Reach out at any time via email, vibecheckatstitcher.com, vibecheckatstitcher.com.

Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Vibe Check. If you love the show and want to support us, there are several ways to do it. First and foremost, follow this show on your favorite podcast listening platform. Also, tell a friend. Seriously, word of mouth is the best way to spread the word about this show.

Tell your neighbor. Huge thank you to our producers, Chantel Holder, engineer Brendan Burns, and Marcus Hom for our theme music and sound design. Special thanks to our executive producers, Nora Ritchie at Stitcher, and Brandon Sharp from Agenda Management and Production. And last but not least, thank you to Jared O'Connell and Imelda Skinder for all of their help. And again, we want to hear from all of you. Don't forget, you can email us at vibecheckatstitcher.com and keep in touch with us on Instagram at The Ferocity, at Sam Sanders, and at

Zach Staff. Use the hashtag VibeCheckPod. Also, you can follow us on TikTok at VibeCheckPod. Stay tuned for another episode next Wednesday. Bye. Bye. Stitcher.