H.H. Holmes, America's 1st Serial Killer, Part 1
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Welcome back, Rammies. Welcome back. It's officially spooky season. Happy October. Oh, we've been waiting for it for so long. For so long. Well, yeah, I was like, am I ready for fall? And the answer is yes.

I feel like we are summer babies. And so we have a complicated relationship with the changing of the seasons. Well, we both have complicated relationships with change in general. It's like we don't handle it too well. That is true. But there does come a time where I do feel the summer fatigue where like I'm over wearing the clothes of the summer. The clothes of the summer? Yeah.

I'm over at the fashion of the summer. You know, and just like, I'm ready for cozier nights, like less socializing. That's what I think summer gets exhausting. I love to travel. I love to like that heat. And then it's like, okay, wrap it up. Yeah. It's just like, let's just be home and can I agree more? Watch some movies and get high. Like that's so different than the summer. But I'll take it. We'll take it. How are you, Tess?

great actually I just got back from a trip with my family you went east coast I like really feel like I just like dive into the east coast like everything like we eat lobster rolls and I wear a cardigan and we like cook dinner every night and listen to the MVY radio station which is like the Martha's Vineyard radio station your focaccia that you made looked incredible I made that focaccia last year when I asked Kunal if he wanted to go steady

Wow. And I was like, I have to do this again. Congratulations. Thank you. Also, Tess drove over the Dyke Bridge. Check out our Chappaquiddick episode. Check it out. Always plugging, always promoting. Always promoting. I did that yesterday when I was on the phone with Hannah that she was talking about someone. I was like, it's like they have Stockholm syndrome. And she was like, you are really always, even to me, you're always plugging.

always you see me in life honestly I was talking about something today oh it's Selena and I was like actually and then I went on I was like stop being such a know-it-all but it's so hard when you learn about all these subjects yeah DM us if you think we've become the worst yeah let us know actually don't it's gonna hurt our girls yeah we're very sensitive I'm sensitive it's true is that what Dorinda says yes and you know we are sensitive creatures that is true um but how the hell

little Claire? I am great. I've been on a really long job that has been a journey for me and now I am sad to see it coming to an end. So shout out to all my production people. You know who you are. I knew it was going to happen. I can't believe... I mean, I should have known it's going to happen because literally everything in life, I have this idea about it and I always...

change my mind and end up enjoying it. I mean, production is like a trauma bond. It's trauma bonding at its finest. And so you literally at the end are like, this is my family. No one's going to understand it like we have. And so it happens every time. It's like summer camp, but worse. Truly though. Yeah. I know. Shout out to you guys. So I'm great on that end and I have some travel coming up. So I'm excited. I'm also going to the East coast. I,

You have a lot of trouble coming up, don't you? Congratulations to our Rammies, Jameson and Abby. They're getting married. You will be married officially by the time this episode comes out. You too. I remember when you first got together and Jameson was talking about Abby and how he started dating this girl he really liked. It's crazy. And he's just like, God, we've all grown up, haven't we? We have. And here we are. Goddamn. It's nice to think about love in that way, isn't it? Because this episode is tough for you when it comes to love. What are we talking about, Claire?

Okay, so I was – last year we had an amazing spooky season episode. Salem with trials, you did phenomenal, Tess. Thank you so much. I appreciate that. I was like, I have to lean into the spooky season. Uh-huh. So I chose something super spooky and creepy. Yes. HH Holmes. I actually don't even know –

Who that is. I was going to say Tess. What do you know about H.H. Holmes? I just know that Leo is producing the movie about him. Leo is truly our third co-host. If only. Am I right or am I right, honey? You're right. For better or for worse. Truly. He'd date you. He wouldn't date me. No, I'm too old. I'm too old. You're like almost too old. I am like ancient. That's like the most depressing thing I've ever heard.

But I am over the age of 25. And he loves to date a blonde, too. Well, yes. And I am growing my hair out to a natural color. It looks incredible. Thank you. I actually just started the subject. So Tess could tell me I was young and how my hair looked good. That's all it really is. But yes, you are right about that. Martin Scorsese and Leonardo DiCaprio have bought the rights to the book, The Devil in the White City, which is where I got most of my information. Oh, yeah.

And they bought those rights in like 2013, right? It's been a really long time. And Leo was set to play H.H. Holmes. But I believe I've seen now that it will be a series on Hulu and that Keanu Reeves is now set to play H.H. Holmes. What a downgrade. I mean, for acting, let's just be honest. Yes, you're exactly right. And also, I think that Leo would have – I don't think that H.H. Holmes and Keanu Reeves were – I think Leo would have been perfect for that.

So maybe there's still time to change things around. Maybe that man is tired. I'm sure he is. I'm sure he is. Of a lot of things. Of a lot of things. Yeah, I'm sure he is. But also, it has to be a series like this episode. I told Tess, guys, this is another two-parter. We can't fit it all into one. It has to be. It must be, and so it is. I cannot wait. We're extending spooky season. But so that's – you don't know anything else besides Leo and H.H. Holmes? No, like –

Olden times, like 1800s, 1900s. Late 1800s. And I'm guessing he murdered people. Oh, yeah. Oh, okay. Great. We haven't done a murder episode in a long time. I know. I know. Not since Charles Manson? Yes, I believe that's correct.

Because like Waco is people were murder. Right. But it wasn't like... A serial killer. Exactly. Ready for it. Exactly. So October is a perfect time for serial killers. We are here and we're ready to party. And since it's like late 1800s, I told Tess, I'm drinking whiskey on the rocks because...

Every time that I do something like olden times, like the Donner party, I feel like it has to be whiskey for me. And I'm drinking white wine because something in me recently, which I'm ashamed of, I cannot order anything at a bar or restaurant besides white wine. Are you a real housewife? I don't know. Like, am I becoming Eileen? Like, what, I'm always just like the crispiest, driest?

I love it. I don't know. The thought of liquor is just making my tummy hurt. Live your truth. But I'm happy for you. And I love a dry white wine. Awesome. Well, I do have to rat you out and say that when I got here, you were like, do you mind if I just smoke my pin? I cannot drink alcohol. We had some tech difficulties. And 30 seconds later, Tess was like, I'm pouring myself a glass of white wine. Honey, it had to be done. It had to be done. I thought I was going to do a weak cleanse. But I'm like, fuck it. Who cares? Time is just a construct. For what? Like literally for what? I thought for my liver.

Who cares? I saw something. No, we're not going to get into it. We'll talk after. We'll talk after about what? Some new studies. I don't want to know about it. I know. I'm like, I don't even want to think about it. Ignorance is bliss. It's true. There's been worse than what we're doing. Smoke my pen. I know. I'm like scared to smoke my pen and like read the subject. But whatever. I'll take a hit. Wow. Wait.

are so easy to be convinced maybe I'll regret this later who knows again who cares who cares you guys come here not to see us be professional exactly because we're not no so oh my god that should be our new tagline you guys don't come here to see us be professional because we're not I think it's perfect

Okay. So like I said, I got most of my information. Shout out to my mother, Cindy. I also believe this is premiering a day before your birthday. So happy birthday to you. We love you. Our queen, our icon, our legend. That's right. We love you. And I have been using your Audible account to listen to this book on tape. So thank you for that. She's like, wait, what? Yeah.

Like, I use everything of your account, so. Mama's a four. That's exactly right. But The Devil in the White City is written by Eric Lawson. It's number one New York Times bestseller, and it's about the architect who led the construction of the great Chicago World's Fair in 1893 and the prolific serial killer who used the fair as a lure. Oh!

Oh, yeah. You wanted to do the fair as a subject? I think we'll have to do the fair as like a Ramy because the Chicago World Fair is super interesting, actually, guys. Like it brought us crazy things like the Ferris wheel. Oh, shit. Yeah. I think we'll have to do a Lamy episode on the Chicago World Fair. Love a Ferris wheel. I also want to warn you that this episode does have disturbing content.

And so will part two. It's just like, it's not for the faint of heart. I see. Yeah, it's going to be a little tough towards the end. Got it. But hey, those things are, right? Yeah, and that's true. You true crime junkies will enjoy this. So I would like to start off with a quote by H.H. Holmes. Oh. And here it is. I was born with the devil in me. I could not help the fact that I was a murderer no more than the poets can help the inspiration to sing. End quote.

I mean, what else is there to say? The man has the devil inside of him. Also, like, do poets sing? I know, like, that's up for interpretation. Yeah, but I guess that's all of art. Oh, that's true. So that's an autobiographical quote by H.H. Holmes. So that's what we're dealing with here. Jesus. Yep. Sweet God. Herman Webster Mudgett, better known as Dr. Henry Howard Holmes or H.H. Holmes, which can you blame the man for changing his name? I sure can. No. Herman Webster Mudgett. I'll...

We'll get to H.H. Holmes when he changes it later. The master of the infamous murder mansion. He was an American con artist and often cited as America's first serial killer. He was the subject of more than 50 lawsuits in Chicago alone. He chose a career of crime, including insurance fraud, swindling, check forging, three to four bigamist illegal marriages, murder and horse theft.

I haven't got to the horse theft in my research yet. I was going to say, horse theft is almost the most sad part of it. It is the saddest. They don't know what's going on. And they're just trying to do what they're taught to do, which is ride. Oh, God, it makes me want to cry. Yeah, me too. Okay, so I sent you this a long time ago. If you Google H.H. Holmes right now, it's photos of H.H. Holmes and randomly a photo of Meghan Markle in the middle of it.

We'll post it to our Instagram, check it out. And I was like, why does she keep popping up? Someone probably paid a lot of money to make that a search in the search engine because they probably are like, she's a murderer. Well, Meghan Markle is apparently related to him.

Really? According, okay, take this at the grain of salt. According to- This is by The Sun, the Daily Mail. According to Meet the Markles, a 2018 documentary, the Duchess of Sussex is the eighth cousin of Jeff Mudgett, who is the great-grandson of serial killer H.H. Holmes, who was born Herman Mudgett.

So it's like very far off. And apparently his grandson also tried to say that he was H.H. Holmes was Jack the Ripper, which is just not possible. And Jack the Ripper is a crazy story. If we if you guys want us to do that one later, we will. I did a Jack the Ripper tour in London once. You did? And you go to all the places that he killed people. Oh my God, what a tour.

from a high school group. This is where he gutted a woman and left her to die. I didn't enjoy it, honestly. I was like so like, it was disturbing. It's disturbing. Yeah, you're like, cool. So someone was like, their throat was slit on this balcony. And everyone's like, does anyone want like a hot dog after this? Or it's like, it is so disturbing. Truly. So it's just a shame that Meghan Markle has to have her photo pop up. Although H.H. Holmes is hot.

And we'll get to that. And Meghan Markle is hot, too. She's very hot. Attractive family. Yeah, attractive family. When you're eighth cousins, you're just so close to the genes. So Holmes was born as Herman Webster Mudgett in Gilmanton, New Hampshire on May 16, 1861. Taurus. Oh, my God. Tess, your fellow Taurus, H.H. Holmes. It does make sense for a murderer. He's so stubborn. He's just vindictive. Yeah. Truly. Jealous. Yeah.

It all goes back to the horoscopes. His father was Levi Mudgett and his mother was Theodette Page Price. His parents to us were devout Methodist, devout, devout religious people, religious people. Methodist. I actually went to Methodist church for a little bit. My mom grew up Methodist. I don't know. What's the difference?

I mean, it's all with the Christianity. It's like... Isn't there like a small, like they don't believe that Jesus did something? I don't know. Well, all I know is that I went to, like when I was really young, an Episcopal church and they have wine. And then they switched over to the Methodist church and they have grape juice. And I remember my aunt was like, what is this shit? I mean, truly though. Actually. What's the point of coming in here a couple times a week? No, seriously.

It's so true. Like, why? So he was beat regularly. The slightest misbehaving resulted in a beating. Prayer and banishment to the attic and a day without speaking and food. And there it is. And there it is. Shayna Moore. Yeah. Yeah. It all comes from somewhere.

Here it is. Elvis. No, Charles Manson was not a mama's boy. Tammy Faye?

Jim. Jim. I can't remember it, but the religious thing. Yeah. We definitely see a thorough line of like many things. It all comes from the parents. Family trauma. There is a pattern. And if you guys are in denial about that, listen to all our episodes again. Seriously, just listen back. Truly. Every single one. Every single one. He was said to be unusually intelligent and odd at an early age. He spent a lot of time in his room reading Edgar Allan Poe and inventing things. Ew. Ew.

That's exactly what his mother said to him. She's like, ew. I can just picture it. I bet he had long fingernails. His mom always said, you have to cut those now. I'm going too dark in my head. It's so scary. In his autobiography,

Okay, so he was a weird kid. He was a loner. And his autobiography, so when he got arrested, he wrote an autobiography in jail, which, you know, great way to pass the time. Sure. He wrote of an instance where teenage boys bullied him while he was walking to school at five years old. He would have to pass by the town's doctor's office, which he was very afraid of. So doctor's offices were not pleasant back in the day.

No. No. So doctors in the 1800s were really just like kind of figuring it out, if you think about it. Trying everything they can to get to modern medicine. Yeah. All of the doctors were, instance, amateurs. The best of them bought cadavers for cash, no questions asked. And they would preserve bits of disease...

I don't know how to say this today. Visceria? Visceria? Internal organs. Like, doctor's offices would just have jars of organs that they were stoning. Yeah, this was the time of just organs in your face, you know? All the time. It's disgusting. That probably showed, like, a level of, like, superiority, maybe, if you had a certain organ in your office.

Right? Like, as a doctor? Because I could, like, attain that. Yeah. Yeah. And, like, they had large clear bottles, skeletons hung in offices for easy anatomical references. So it's, like, it's like a haunted house. I've always said I don't want to live in this time. And I stand by that. I don't want to live in this time either. No. Like, no. I don't.

Until we get to regularly like bathing, then I'll show up, but not now. That's true. So, oh, also doctor's office would have fresh corpses in the back because this is, and this is also controversial at the time. Dissection for studying was super controversial. Yeah.

Because you're ruining like the, it's like a religious thing. Yes. Especially with Christianity. They thought that like for redemption or something, you had to have your full body. But they didn't, apparently they didn't care about this for people who were like hung. So they would be like, you can dissect their body because they're not going to go to heaven anyways. Cafeteria style. Yeah, cafeteria style. But people have that same thing today with being cremated. That it's like, well, isn't like that not as pure because like you have a body's being burned?

and it's like... Burn me up. ...opposed to being put underground. For what? You're making... It's so bad for the environment. It's just too much space. All these coffins. It's too much space. It's really bad. Make me into a plant. Make me into a diamond. Ooh. They can do that. I'm wearing my best friend on my ring. Or my hands.

They can do that. People just staring, just tears in their eyes. I see. I proposed to someone. I'd be like, this was my mother. Oh, my God. It's so dark. That is dark. But I want that to be my son one day. Get engaged. Get scholar. I hope I'm not dead, actually. No, no, same. Well, he's going to live forever. Oh, but I digress. So, yeah, some medical schools would hire local kids that would go rob graves for bodies because they're like, we need to learn how to –

Be doctors. That'd be a good TV show. It would be a great TV show. Damn. We have lots of ideas. Don't steal them. I don't. Copyright. Yeah, exactly. You heard it here. So the older kids found out that he was really freaked out by the doctor's office. So they capture him and they drag him into the doctor's office kicking and screaming and they shove his face into the skeleton. And he's just freaking the fuck out because it's his biggest fear. But then all of a sudden he was captivated by it.

And all of a sudden, he wasn't really so scared. And he said this made him curious to learn more about medicine. And I bet that scared the shit out of those older kids. They're like slowly backing away. 100% and running out. Close the door. They just start kissing the skeleton. So scary. So by 11 years old, he starts doing surgeries on animals.

Yep. And he would try to keep them alive as long as possible while he was doing the surgeries on the animals and then would keep their bones because he's super interested in medicine now. Signs that we later see are signs of a serial killer in a child. There's this thing called the McDonald triad, which is three things that are supposed to show signs that a kid's going to end up being a serial killer.

And I don't know like how accurate this thing is, but I've definitely heard of it before. Cruelty to animals, obsession with fire, and persistent bedwetting past the age of five. Oh my God. So I used to wet the bed a lot. I wore like diapers.

I had to wear pull-ups until I was like six. Oh, well, okay. It happens. And I saw this theory once when I was high and I was like, am I like unwell? Because this is the majority of kids that have that. Like something's wrong with them. All of a sudden you're like the devil lives inside of me.

I had a moment of panicking. No, and that's like the thing. Like, I don't... Also, guys, like, you know, we're not historians. We're not psychologists. But the three of them together are like... I think so. And I've also seen something about like head injuries when they're younger. It also leads to that. But it checks out for H.H. Holmes. Scary. Scary. So he would keep a box of like...

all these animal bones and extracted teeth and really creepy stuff and a picture of his 12-year-old sweetheart. It's like all the bones and then a picture of a girl. Did she know that he was his sweetheart? I'm sure she didn't want to know. But also like getting a picture in this time was hard to do.

Must have been rich. Must have been. So I think he came from like a fine family. But also, so he was kind of a loner, except he had this one really good friend named Tom. And they were like best friends. They're playing in an abandoned house one day. And Tom falls and dies.

But the rumor is that H.H. Holmes, as a kid, pushed him and watched him die. To dissect him? I don't know. Okay, so H.H. Holmes is a true psychopath. Seems like it. We're only at like 12 years old. I don't know. And it hasn't been proven that he died. But everywhere I saw, people are like, and he probably killed his friend. Oh, God. Really scary. Okay, so at 16, he graduates school and he becomes a teacher. Wow.

So I guess you could just be a 16-year-old teacher at this time. And around this time, he meets a girl named Clara Levering. And Clara had never met anyone like H.H. Holmes. She attracted him? So attracted. Or I guess his name's Herman Mudgett. Not as sexy. Not at all.

But this is a theme that we see with H.H. Holmes later. Like, women have never met anyone like him. He was so well-spoken. He's charming as hell. He touched her when he talked, even in public, which back then people were like, ladies, we have to raise the bar. We have to. We have to. He would stare a little too long and stand a little too close. So he's a predator. It's like breathing in your ear and you're like, wow, take me now. Wow. Yeah. So all these things just...

She's never met any... And like also just the world was so much more sheltered back then, you know? If it's like an attractive man who probably even looks at you in the eye, you're like, he's the love of my life. I mean, even now. Do that now. That was like me all throughout my 20s. Exactly. Exactly. Because, yes. So he... Okay. And just a description of what he looks like. I do think he's a very hot man. He was 5'8". He weighed 155 pounds. Yeah, yeah.

I was like, oh, he's a small little one. Like, you know, cocaine chic. That's the term. He had dark hair and crisp blue eyes, a very dark mustache, and women were like hubba hubba.

He does sound hot. You know who I picture in my head? That actor. I don't know why this just came to me. That actor, Kevin Zegers. I don't know who that is. I'll look it up. Yeah, look it up. I mean, Nicholas Holt would be great. Oh, my God. Because he's such a good little like... He's like so hot and charming. And yes. Oh, my God. What if they did... It's hard to make this subject a satire because it gets so dark. It sure is. This guy. Yeah.

Oh, you know what I mean? Perfect. And he's short too. We're going to post on our Instagram our casting for H.H. Holmes. This looks like him. I'm creeped out. He kind of has young Leo vibes. I also think Leo's too old for H.H. Holmes. Yeah, no, that's true. Okay, this is H.H. Holmes. Hi, Adrian. Shout out to you. Thank you for everything you do. Sorry that we had to mention you on this episode, but hey.

So Kevin Zegers, we'll put him on Instagram. Yes, exactly. Okay, so everything was great, except he didn't court her properly, which means...

She was bothered by his insistence on sex before marriage. This man wanted it. Crazy for being raised in such a religious, strict house. Is it crazy? No. Hugh Hefner was like that. Oh, right. I'm like, it actually makes perfect sense. Wait, how old is he at this point? He's 16 or 17. Okay, so he's like, I'm ready. I've never felt hornier. Exactly. And she's like, you have to court me.

Okay. So when he's 17 or 18, they elope on 4th of July, 1878. And a year and a half later, Clara gives birth to their child, Robert. Yeah, Robert. And Holmes starts to get even more interested in medicine. And it's like, Clara and Robert are dragging me down in life. And so he leaves for medical school, which Clara paid for. And they remain married, but he was like, peace out. How did she have the money for that? I think her family. Hmm.

Yeah, family money. And he used that. And we'll see that a lot with H.H. Charles too. So at 19, he goes to college. He goes directly to medical school. He went somewhere else, but he ends up going to University of Michigan in Ann Arbor in 1882. Shout out to our last guest host, Quinn92. I told you I'd give you a shout out for that. Love it. One of the leading scientific medical schools known for its emphasis on the controversial art of dissection.

So again, we talked about why that was controversial at the time. This school was like,

we honor it like we don't give a shit no exactly um like even organ donation would be a big no-no which organ donation like saves the world it's just so crazy it is crazy but yeah again like people would great dig because they didn't have bodies to sell to medical schools and they needed to research damn a fellow medical student of holmes later remarks that he always seemed to have a morbid fascination with dead bodies he was too eager to work on the cadavers you gotta play it cool there bud

Yeah, like if people are watching you run up to the body to cut it open, it's a little scary. That's tough. It's a little scary. Okay, so in medical school around this time is where we start our criminal vibes. Even though we know H.H. Holmes is like America's first serial killer, he starts his crime business in fraud. And, you know, my...

My thing that kept coming up in my mind when I was reading about this is it's always easier to get away with things when you're hot. You know, like people just trust you when you're hot. I mean, like literally that is a proven thing. It's a thing. People that are beautiful get ahead. And I really think that applied to him. Mm-hmm.

So he used that to his favor, I think, a lot. But a landlord that rented out to Holmes from – that Holmes rented from once said, I never saw a man who was a more accomplished liar than Holmes. He could tell as beautiful lies you ever heard, and you would have a hard work to bring yourself to doubt him. So people automatically were just like, he's smart, he's hot, say no more. They're like, tell me the secret of lies. Every time. Every time.

So by the fall of 1885, 24-year-old Holmes had accumulated a ton of debt from school, housing. He tried to work in some offices. He left the woman that paid for his medical school. Claire's like, if you could just maybe write me a check at some point. Anytime, please. So he was at medical school with all these corpses.

And him and his Canadian classmate, shout out to our Raven Canadians. We love you guys so much. You don't even know. We're like, I've got a brilliant, beyond brilliant idea. Name the movie. I just got a brilliant, beyond brilliant. She's the man. No. Patreon. Parent trap? Yes. Yes. I got a parent trap. Patreon. It's okay. I caught you off guard. So they're like, I've got a brilliant, beyond brilliant idea. Insurance fraud.

So they were like, let's, they also brought in another friend who had a wife and kid and they were like, take out a substantial life insurance policy on your entire family. Then send your wife and child out of town. Mm-hmm.

And then write a false suicide note saying that you killed them and then killed yourself and you also get out of town. By the time that the insurance comes to check out the bodies, we'll have these cadavers here. You'll skip town. H.H. Holmes is like, I'll come in and say I'm a family member, collect all the insurance money, and we'll split it between the three of us.

Smart. So smart. And it was so easy to do shit like this, right? Because there weren't files or tracking. There weren't even photographs. So if someone's like, that's not the right person. But he did do his research on this and he did realize...

that the insurance companies, unless the bodies were pretty decomposed or burnt, they could tell that that's not the person. Right. But it's also so easy to file your name like under a different thing. Yeah. So he does all this. Well, also he's like, okay, each of us is responsible for getting a body. Grab a body, girls. Let's go get up. Throw them over your shoulder. So each of our... But then after doing his research, he was like...

You know, this is just like too much work and I just feel like it's too risky. So like, let's, let's call it, let's call it off. But from what I see, he told his friends to call him off and he constantly does it by himself. He just will like make up fake names and then have a burnt,

and collect insurance money from it. And he starts doing this in college. Damn, damn. And he just is collecting cash. God, I bet he is. Yeah. And he would also, he would get these bodies from, again, digging up graves or he would go to morgues and steal these bodies. But how do you walk out of there? It's like weekend at Bernie's, like put some sunglasses on them. Maybe when they're like sleeping, the guards or something. The guards are sleeping. It's like a cartoon with like Zs coming out of their mouth.

Okay, so when he's done with medical school, he moves around a bit and he lands in Philadelphia. He gets a job at a drugstore as kind of as a pharmacist, which he has no business doing because he's not a pharmacist. Like he went to school to be a doctor, not a pharmacist. Yeah. Soon after working there, a child dies after taking some medicine that Mudgett gave to him.

Mudgett denies any involvement and immediately leaves the city. Big yikes. He killed, he just. Oh, I'm sure he killed that boy. Okay. He's a serial killer. Yeah. We were like talking about earlier. Like he's so hot. I'm so sorry. I do this every episode. I just try to, I need to understand them first. But also we have to go through the journey. Like it's all a journey. And we have to give people the benefit of the doubt before they become serial killers. Because what, what, what else is life for, you know? Yeah. Jesus. So he hops on a train to Chicago.

He leaves Philadelphia as Herman Webster Mudgett and he arrives in Chicago as H.H. Holmes. A little sexier. Yeah. He's like, I'm going to the big city. Glow up. Glow up. Exactly. That's like a rich name. H.H. Holmes is a phenomenal name. Way to go. He got something right. And August of 1886 as a 26-year-old. Yeah.

He changed his name likely to avoid creditors that he is already starting to steal money from and the insurance fraud. And also like he definitely killed that boy. I wonder what else he had done that we didn't know about. Oh shit. So he changes his name. Herman Webster Mudgett is no more and we are in HH Holmes. Is he wearing a top hat? He has a bowler hat. That's what he wears. Bowler hat. Those are ugly.

What is that? It's where it's like round. It's like a top hat, but it looks like a bowling ball. Oh, I don't like those at all. They're creepy. But maybe it's like H.H. Holmes. That was like his OOTD. Signature look. Yeah, exactly. All the time. So let's talk Chicago at the time. Have you been to Chicago? I have been to Chicago. I went for Lollapalooza Music Festival. I want to go to Lollapalooza so bad. With Adrienne Jones. Adrienne. Adrienne, this episode is for you. Sorry. Sorry.

Love Chicago. So I've heard nothing but amazing things about it. It's just like, it's a Midwest city. So you feel that like sweetness in the air and like people are really nice, but it's so metropolitan. Yeah.

It's like a nice, like a kind New York. Yes. I feel like it's an underrated city. And maybe I'm saying that. It is. And I know that people love Chicago, but I feel like there should be more commotion for Chicago. I think it just gets in, like, colder than even New York. That's the problem. Like, negative 20 degrees in the winter. I want to go to Chicago in the summer or fall. 100%. Yeah. 100%. But yeah, I love Chicago. Well, so let's talk about Chicago in this time, in the late 1800s. So it had...

When H.H. Holmes arrived in Chicago, it had bounced back completely from the Great Fire of 1871. Have you heard of this fire? Oh, yeah. Basically, the whole city was on fire because all the buildings in Chicago at this time were made of wood. So once that fire started, it just...

Those were the days where they didn't know that that's not a good thing. It was bad. So it destroyed roughly 3.3 square miles of the city, including over 17,000 structures, and it left more than 100,000 residents homeless. I like this. One of the most popular tales of how the fire started blames Mrs. O'Leary's cow, who allegedly knocked over a lantern. However, others say that a group of men were gambling inside the barn and knocked over a lantern.

You know those dudes were like, yeah, they're like, God, it was us. They're like, blame it on the... We've all been there. We sure have all been there. Truly. So... Can you imagine? And they start... They light the whole city on fire. Oh, God. So however it started, it's destructive for the city. However, they kind of make the best of it because this makes Chicago kind of start from scratch, but all these people are already here, so they don't have to like bring more people in. And they start building like the first modern buildings that we see today. Yeah.

That's right. They were kind of like the pioneer for that architecture, right? They built the first ever skyscraper. That's why you go on the Chicago architecture tour. Everyone does that. I wouldn't go. Because I think it's like revolutionary. If this building, and again, like I haven't finished my research for part two, Breaking the Fourth Wall. Sorry about it. You guys love it. You do.

I don't know if the murder castle is still there, but I'm sure they take you by the side of where it was. For sure. Crazy. Oh, so fun. So fun. So, yep. So with all this progress. So fun murder. The murder mansion. So fun. Those who get it, get it though. So with progress comes people, trains of people just start pouring into the city. But despite bringing cool new buildings, it was like a pretty gross city. Yeah.

Garbage piled on the sidewalks. There was tons of flies. Apparently, there was just like dead animals on the street. Meat was a big business in Chicago. You know The Jungle by Upton Sinclair? Yeah, yeah. It's written about Chicago in this time. Oh, interesting. So the area around the Union Stockyards were said to smell like decomposing bodies, burnt hair, and cow poop.

Sounds like some places in Venice, honestly. No kidding. The sidewalks are like, that was a peace spot. That was a peace spot. It's not a mile away. It's disgusting. But despite this, against all odds, Chicago is chosen later for the World Fair, which I promise you I'll do a whammy. Yeah. If you want it, because I would like to do it, but I also don't want you guys to be bored out of your minds. We'll do a poll. Yeah, we'll do a poll. Yes. Okay, great. Okay.

Um, so H.H. Holmes travel, he gets to Chicago in August, 1886, I believe is what I said. Yes. Okay. He immediately travels to this like suburb town called Englewood, which is a fast growing, not Englewood, California, fast growing suburb outside of Chicago. And he finds this drug store and across the street from the drug store is a vacant lot on the corner of Wallace and 63rd for you Chicago, Chicago-nians.

I just want to put Chicago-nians in front of everything. Chicago-ns? Chicago-ns? Chicago-nians. Chicago-ns. Chicago-nites? I don't know, actually. Whatever you are, maybe you'll enjoy that little fact. So this drugstore is owned by a husband and wife team.

The woman's name is Elizabeth Holton. He walks in. He introduces himself as a doctor and licensed pharmacist. Lies. He's not a licensed pharmacist. And asks if she needed any help in the store. And she tells him that her husband upstairs is suffering from cancer. And H.H. Holmes is like, oh, my God, sweetheart, let me help you out. No. No. So he offered his services as a pharmacist. She's like, I would actually love that. I need the help.

Soon after, Elizabeth's husband dies. I don't see anything that H.H. Holmes has anything to do with that, but we can't rule anything out at this point. We sure can. Holmes is like, listen, this is a tough time for you.

let me buy your pharmacy on a payment plan and you can still live in the apartment upstairs. And she's like, you are my angel. And she signed over the deed to him. God, he must have been charismatic as hell. I think he was. And I think that people have never seen Chris' blue eyes like his and that mustache. Also, you know, like right now, mustaches have never been more in style. He started in Pioneer. He started in Pioneer.

For men's grooming. He sure was. Men's grooming and murder. That's true. For a serial killer. So he financed the purchase by mortgaging the store's stock, agreeing to repay the loan out at a rate of $100 a month. Clear Q later, about $3,000 today. Thank you for your work and your services. Yes. So he's like, I'm going to pay you this much money a month. He never ends up paying it. I'll just tell you that. I've

Because he's a con artist. Not shocked. Not shocked. So he calls it H.H. Holmes Pharmacy. Chic, honestly. Chic. The word spreads that there is this new hot young pharmacist in town. Oh, so everyone's like, give us an ad bill. An increasing number of women in their 20s start showing up the store dressing nice and buying things they didn't need. They're just pouring in. Relatable. Yeah.

Oh my gosh, I just have such bad headaches. It's so creepy. Soon after, Mrs. Holton, who he brought the pharmacy from, disappears.

So longtime customers liked H.H. Holmes, but then they were like, where are the older people? Like they were so comforting and we loved them. I mean, they obviously knew her husband died from cancer. And H.H. Holmes is like, oh, she just went to visit her family in California. And then she's gone for a really long time. And he's like, yeah, you know, she loved it so much. She stayed there.

Ew. Scary. So I've also seen accounts. I've seen conflicting accounts. I've seen that. And I've also seen them. People be like, she was actually just hiding in the city, but the devil in the wedding.

Guys, why are we trying to pick ourselves up for H.H. Holmes? There's no need for that? No. I think we know. I think we know what happened. So by the end of 1885, the pharmacy is crushing it. And now H.H. Holmes travels to Minneapolis because he cannot take his mind off of a lady. Who is she? Her name is Myrta Z. Belknap. She's a beautiful, voluptuous blonde woman he had met on a prior trip to Minneapolis. Wow.

Oh, is she young? Yes. Here's a little quote from the devil in the white city. Oh God. It says,

It amused him that women as a class were so wonderfully vulnerable, as if they believed the codes of conduct that applied in their safe little small towns might actually still apply once they had set out on their own and left their dusty kerosene-scented parlors behind. The city toughened them, however. Best to catch them at the start of their ascent towards freedom, and transit from small places when they were anonymous lost, their presence recorded nowhere.

So that's literally how he thought. He's like, get these young, innocent women. Because there was a lot of women who were moving to Chicago at this time because there was a lot of opportunity for them. Right. And he knew that. Ew. Ew. Yep. And Minneapolis at this time is a small town.

And so we met this young voluptuous. So creepy. So creepy. So here's this handsome doctor from Chicago all of a sudden being like, you're hot. Right. So, of course. Exactly. So Murda immediately is like, I'm in love. Mm hmm.

He convinces Myrda to let him court her after Holmes had multiple trips to Minneapolis. And despite his unconventional courting practices, again... He was like, have sex with me? Exactly. She... He should masturbate more. Yeah, really. I mean, come on, man. It's fine. You're going to be okay. You're going to be fine. Yeah, exactly. I guess porn wasn't so readily available back then. But he... She...

And he kind of tries to tell her this. It's like, it's just different in Chicago. Like, we just don't do it like that there. So manipulative. So manipulative. That is an abusive relationship. Call it how it is. And I feel like people still do that today. Yeah. Of course. Yes, gaslighting. Exactly. It's like, you know, you're being crazy. Yep. So, but she's, they said that it frightened her, but she liked the heat and risk of it. She's like, he's a bad boy. Love addict. Exactly. Murder your love addict. Yeah.

Let us diagnose you now. Exactly. So Murda agrees to marry him because he's like, come live with me in Chicago. And they get married on January 28, 1887. He didn't get around to telling her that he's still legally married to Clara. Remember old Clara? And that they have a child. I wrote, he's like Nick Parker from the Baron Trafford.

Check out our Patreon episode. If you want to hear more, we dissect Nick Parker's family trauma and what leads to his love life. Truly. And then we talk about our own trauma. Our own family trauma. Check it out. $7.99 a month. That's right.

to talk about family drama. So Holmes brings Myrta back to Chicago. At first, Myrta is enamored with Chicago and Holmes. Not once does she think something is off about my husband. She said, No, no. He adored children and animals. He was a lover of pets and always had a dog or a cat, usually a horse he would play with.

Play with – or he would play with them by the hour, teaching them little tricks and romping with them. He neither drank nor smoked and did not gamble. He was affectionate, impossible to repel. In his home life, I do not think there was a better man than my husband. So I feel like – A lot to unpack there. That's the Instagram post of being like, we're in love. Love my life. He loves horses. Also scary. Romping around. Did H.H. Holmes have horse girl energy? No.

100% horse girl murder energy. Yeah. Like horse girl true crime energy. Yes. Like the horses will not be there. Yeah. Oh, no. At the end of. When they are done. Yeah. So she thinks everything's perfect. She doesn't suspect anything's weird. But she starts getting a little jealous of all these women who are coming into the pharmacy. And she sees that he's starting to flirt with them and they're flirting back.

so she's shocked. She really like did not. No, she sheltered. No. Yeah. She did not see this coming. And also he starts being like, why don't you just start working on the books upstairs and I'll handle everything. He flirts with the women.

so rude. It's horrible. So she grows more and more withdrawn and depressed and she starts writing letters to her parents being like, I moved to an unknown place for a guy and it's not what I thought it would be. It's the tales all the time. It makes my heart hurt because Lord knows. Lord knows. Lord knows. She also, by 1880, so by 1888, her parents moved to Willamette, Illinois. I just said Illinois. I'm so sorry. I say that all the time. It's confusing. No shame in it. Let's all admit that we do it.

It's a safe spot here. It's just like Colonel. It's rude. It's just not how the English language seems. If the letter doesn't need to be there, it should not. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Claire. So her parents moved to town also by the spring of 1888. Myrta is pregnant.

So soon Myrta moves in with her parents out of her house with her husband and has her child. Yep. Holmes visits Myrta and Lucy sporadically saying he was like not visiting so much because he was like really busy. It's like you have a pharmacy. How busy can you be, sweetheart? You know? Yikes. The coolest quote. I hope not sporadically. Yeah.

I remember watching that movie and being like, what does that word mean? I'm still like, what is the exact definition? Like... Every now and then. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. We learn so much here. We really do. But also he charms her family because he'll bring them nice dresses and stuff and then be like, I'm just so hardworking and that's why I can't see you. It's like if you're not living with your husband in the same city... Sounds like Adam Levine. Oh, shit. Another comparison. What did he say? He was like...

I've never seen anything hotter. Yes. There's so many memes going. Companies are posting that. I think that way. Now about like their products. Their sexting. I'm like, should we do one? Yes. Do it. Blast him. Blast him. Blast him. It's, let's do a Patreon on Jeff Bezos sexting and Adam Levine sexting. Perfect. Okay, we're doing it. Guys, 799 months. 799 months. 799 months.

Okay, so meanwhile at Holmes, or meanwhile, Holmes, who's 27. He's so young. That's a good age. 27, 27 club. He buys the land across the street from the drugstore in the summer of 1888 and registers the deed under a fake name, H.S. Campbell. And he does this to scheme because he's like, I'm going to start stealing money. And when the creditors come for me, I'm going to be like, this building's under H.S. Campbell. I'm H.H. Holmes. That's not me.

It's so easy to get away with shit back then. Wow. Is that why everyone just killed each other? I think so. I really like – who's going to like – Especially like banking fraud. That's like – catch me if you can to bring it back to Leo. You can do whatever you want. Even in the 60s, it was kind of easy to do that. With that technology. Like do you guys realize what you had? I'm speaking to the ghosts of the 1800s. Speak to them. Tell them. Do you realize what you could have done? Tell them what you want them to hear. Yeah. What you could have stolen? Yeah.

I don't want to encourage that behavior, but I will. That is crazy. Time traveling once again. I wish we could do it. So he starts sketching an elaborate plan to design a building and he refuses to hire an architect on this because then he would have to reveal... I'm sorry if I'm pausing so much before I start. I'm like, tell me. Because he then would have to reveal what he was really planning with the design and he is designing what we know today as the murder castle.

Ew, so he knows he's going to kill people in it? Oh, yeah. He is literally designing a castle to do so, a mansion. He wanted...

retail shops on the first floor that bring in income and allow him to hire as many young women as possible. No. The second and third floor would be apartments. His personal apartment and office would be on these floors. That's the basics. But let's talk details, honey. Let's talk. Okay.

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Rammies, I'm going to let you in on a little secret, and I'm going to say something that you probably have never heard a soon-to-be bride say, and that is that I love wedding planning. I have had such an amazing, fun, light experience doing it with my fiance, and that is a huge thanks to Zola. So with Zola, you can plan your entire wedding in one convenient place.

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the couch. Do it wherever you want because this is all about you. So here's what you're going to do. You're going to start planning at Zola.com. That's Z-O-L-A.com. You can thank me later. Okay. So the first floor, he had space for five retail stores and stores that he would later fill with his own businesses under alias names. I should take a little bit too hip. I'm

From a pin. I'm so sorry. Just giving you really intense eye contact as it was happening. Hey, we've all been there. We sure have. So yeah, a lot of retail stores, which again, that awful phrase to kill two birds with one stone. Right. He can do fraud and he can hire a lot of pretty young women. Jesus. The second floor is,

Had six hallways, which crisscrossed through each other. The hallways were all narrow, angles at odd places. There were just random dead ends and stairways that led to nowhere. Haunting. There were 51 doors that led to only 35 rooms. So I believe that there were doors that you would just open and it would be a wall and it would lead to nothing. It's like the Winchester Mystery House. Oh, talking to me about this the other day. Didn't it look crazy? Yeah.

crazy old woman just keep building onto her house it's in the Bay Area and it's this woman that like a widow who lost her obviously that's what a widow is this widow who believed that the house was haunted and she kept wanting to make like more space for them but then end up just looking crazy and so yeah there's like staircases that just go up to walls and unfinished rooms and you can tour it in San Jose

Well, that's actually like a really like thoughtful thing to do. I feel like he did all this so that like, I feel like I can imagine someone running and thinking they're going to get out and opening a door and it's just like to a wall. He wants to like disorient them. Yes. And he wants to trap them. Right. So different motivations for a crazy home. But ends up being the same thing.

Good, good. Yeah. So there, um, some, okay. Some rooms were sealed airtight with, um, a bestest covered steel plates. Some were soundproof. Most of the rooms, especially the airtight ones had small gas pipes outfitted somewhere out of sight. And the controls for the gas pipes were up on the third floor and Holmes bedroom where he could turn on the gas and turn it on it on any guests at any time and kill them.

Ew, like right next to his bed. I'm just imagining him like opening something and just turning it up like looking out the window. Exactly. That's so gross. Ew. This whole episode is just ew. Where else? Oh, he installed locks that only he could lock from the outside and there was a secret peephole in each room. Both peepholes and the rooms were accessed by secret passageways concealed by sliding panels hidden in the walls. Ew.

He sketched a wooden chute that would descend from a secret location on the second floor all the way down to the basement. And he planned to coat the chute with axle grease so that bodies would just like shoot on down there faster. Was he doing this all himself or was he hiring like construction? He was hiring contract workers, but he was designing all this.

So they weren't asking questions of like, hey man. So what he would do with hiring contract workers is he would hire a bunch of them and then when they came to him for payment at the end of the week, he would be like, you actually did a terrible job and I'm not going to pay you and fire them and then hire more. This way he wouldn't have to pay the contractors and they would never actually know what they were building because they wouldn't be on the job long enough. God. And this is like before Yelp reviews, you know? Yeah.

So then these poor, like new guys are coming in being like, I got a job. Exactly. And Chicago, again, it's like a booming city right now with a lot of jobs. So all these people are coming in and yeah, it's, that's horrible. Also, I thought like, that's exactly what Tommy Lee did on that Pam and Tommy show. Wow. Yes, it totally is. And that is why he sold the sex tape. So,

Yeah, exactly. So also in the basement, he had a kiln installed, which a kiln is a thermally insulated chamber. It's a type of oven that produces temperature sufficient to complete some process such as hardening, drying, or chemical changes. Or? Or burning people off.

When he bought it, it's like, usually I think they're giant. And when he got his, he was like, oh, I'm doing it for glass blowing, that I'm going to have a glass shop in my first floor. And people were like, this isn't big enough for glass blowing. This would be like big enough for a body. Ha, ha, ha. Right? Everyone's like, you are scaring me to my deepest, deepest core. That's exactly what he was doing. And he also was like, how do I make sure that nothing smells when I'm burning something? And they're like, what? Yeah.

Oh, God. Guys, there are signs. There are signs. There are signs. How do you cut the smell? I forgot. He figured some way out where he made it to where it didn't smell. Terrifying. Terrifying. Okay. So he thought out every single detail of this murder castle. Let's see. Murder castle? It's just like so crazy. Yep. So then we talked about the construction. I mean, he's truly a supervillain. I mean, it's like even...

Can you imagine even like beginning to plot something like this? Because it's like normal people like us wouldn't think about like all, it's just like, it's true that every fucking murderers and serial killer is like intelligent. And that's what's just so scary. It's so scary. Like too smart, obviously. I know. So also he, at least 60 lawsuits were filed against him over eight years in Chicago because he wasn't paying people. Um,

But when he was sued, he'd be like, well, the building's under H.S. Campbell. I'm H.H. Holmes. Again, he didn't legally own any property and also any furniture that he would borrow from creditors and all that stuff. He would end up selling it off. So when they would come to collect it, he'd be like, well, I don't even have it anymore. God. It's just so crazy that people are like, well, okay. I mean, it's impressive. It is. And not acceptable at the same time. And both things can't be true. Both of these things can't be true.

So by May 1890, about two years later, the building was nearly done. By the time it was done, over 500 workers had come and gone without a single one figuring out what the true purpose was.

And this castle, like, I mean, we see, like, giant houses everywhere now. But back then, like, I just feel like they weren't as relevant. Yeah. And so people were like, oh, my God, look at this giant building he's building. And, like, also capitalism is, like, what you aimed for back then. You know, like, you work hard and you don't stop working and then you make it to the top. Totally. So people are like, look at H.H. Holmes go. Wow. And they, like, admired it.

Do you think any of the construction workers came back and threw a rock through the window or anything? I hope so. I really hope so. I'm sure once they found out, they're just like a shiver down their spine. A shiver. There's one story of a contractor who H.H. Holmes took him aside, and there was a guy just working at the bottom level, and he looked down, and he was like, see that guy there? It's my brother-in-law, and I don't care for him. Would you drop a brick on his head if I asked you to? God! What?

And the guy was like, no. Like, I'm good. Yeah. So we don't know if he was asking him that, trying to recruit some people to be on his team. Like, what other psychos can I find? Or if he had life insurance policy taken out on that contractor and then he would die and collect it. We just don't know. And we can all make our assumptions. Yeah, exactly. Or maybe both. Yeah. So, okay. Okay.

People, again, didn't expect a thing, except also a druggist said that he sometimes sold him chloroform nine to ten times a week in large quantities. When he asked what he was using for, he never really gave him a good answer. So the chemist was like, okay, I'm not giving you any more until you tell me what you're doing. Anyone buying chloroform, like what's the exact purpose of that?

I think it's to knock people. Right. I mean, like it probably was invented for something and then quickly people were like, wait a second. But like the red flag. Red flag. And also it doesn't help that he had like a pharmacy and like that he went to medical school. Oh, so they're like community. Like I'm helping you out, my man. He's researching. Wow. So then Holmes is like, okay, okay. I'm using it for experiments.

But when Holmes goes back for more and the drug is asked him how his experiments were going, Holmes just gave him a blank stare and said, I'm not performing any experiments. He's just a true psychopath that he'll say anything and then be like, I don't even remember lying about that. Maybe.

So are people like he gives me the heebie-jeebies or people like I respect him because he's a businessman? They said that they would go in there being pissed and like wanting their money back and they would walk out with him patting you on the back and you felt like you're a best friend. You're like, please don't touch me. There's no need to pat. I think that he truly like could charm people. Yeah, that's right. And he's hot. Keep remembering. Yes, exactly. Kevin Zegers. Kevin Zegers.

Perfect casting. So Holmes places an ad in the newspaper offering jobs for young women and advertises the castle as a place of lodging. Also, all of Holmes' employees, some hotel guests, fiancés, and wives that we see in his life were required to have life insurance policies with Holmes or one of his aliases being the beneficiary.

Can you imagine getting hired for a job and your boss is like, bye-bye. That's all going to be mine. It's so weird. Like, that is a huge red flag. Yikes. Yeah. So, and people, we will see you just start disappearing. So, to Holmes' pure satisfaction, Jackson Park in Chicago is named the official fair site in November for the Chicago World

fairs in Paris before Chicago so he's like oh yeah more and more people are gonna start coming into town and I'm gonna make my murder castle a hotel as well for all the out-of-town guests oh my god I wonder what the interior design was like I mean I think it was chic I they said it was actually pretty dark because also in the hallways they were like really um they were really spaced out gas lamps that were like dimly lit so I think it was all just like like to fuck with you kind of like

Just feeling so uneasy. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't think that it was... I can't imagine a man like this being like, I want like a lot of plants and natural light. Exactly. Natural light is at the most important. An action wall. Exactly. So I don't think it was great. I wouldn't want to stay there. Right. Right. For more reasons than one. Not just the interior design. Sure. I get it. I get it. So, okay. We've got our hotel or murder mansion open. At this time, Asilius Connor, but he went by Ned.

So I don't know how you get the name Ned from Asilius. This was in this time. People went off by any nickname that they thought fit. He's like, I prefer Ned over Asilius. What can I say? And his wife, Julia Smythe, moved in with their eight-year-old daughter, Pearl, to the mansion. It's also like, I think this is also a time of lodging houses too. I guess that's our modern day apartment buildings. Oh. Like, you know on Little Women where she's like in Greta Gerwig one? I don't know about that.

know about the other one. Oh, so you're bringing it back right now? You're doing it. Let's argue here and now. But yes, I know what you mean. You know the one with Little Miss Flo? Oh, guys, if you want us to, don't worry. Darling recap. We will do it. Don't tempt us. Please. We're going to do it anyway. But just encourage us. Yeah, exactly. So they move in. Ned has taken over the pharmacy where

That's in the building. Right. And then H.H. Holmes sees Ned's six-foot wife, Julia. And he is like, now who is that? Oh, she's like a model? Yeah. Really? And then he's like, why don't you start working at the jewelry counter, Julia? God, he has so many things going on in this castle. And none of them are under his name. They're all under fake people's names.

He's not paying for any of it. Jewelry in a pharmacy. In a restaurant, and there was a barber shop, too. Jesus. I mean, I guess a great hotel idea. Yeah, serious. It's like a Vegas hotel. Yeah, it's like you go down, and you can get anything you want in the middle of the night. You go in, and you don't go out. Wow. You don't go out. You sure don't. So although Ned likes homes, he soon grows envious of the attention that his wife and Ned's sister also comes to work, start to give home.

And he said that they would change, like when they were talking to HH Homes, they'd be like all giggly. And then when Ned would come up, they'd be like, hey. They're like, what? So he started getting jealous. And he said that the customers would act the same way. They'd be so bored when Ned was helping them out. And then HH Homes would come in and they'd be like, ah. Oh my God. Sorry, I got excited. I mean, that's what they would do. That's what they would do. There's wires in the air. Yeah.

So, okay, he also finds him a bit odd because he asked Ned one day to help him soundproof test his vault.

So he's like, to Ned, he's like, I'm going to go in there and scream. And you let me know if you can hear me. So Ned is like, that's a little weird. Okay. And he's like, I can barely hear him. Then H.H. Holmes walks out and he's like, your turn. You go in there and scream. And I'll see if I can hear you. And I guess Ned does it. And then he said he walks out and there's a quote, I didn't like that business. Well, yeah, it's also...

Oh, God. Terrifying. Don't paint your red flag screen, people. That's right, honey. Like, run. The second someone tells you, go into a soundproof room and scream. Get out. If you did that to me, I'd be like, well, I have so many questions before I do this. I'm like, I'm testing for the podcast, Claire. Oh, my God. It's perfect. Wow. I should be a murderer? Like, I'm one step ahead of this whole process.

Just kidding. So then... But he still, like, didn't really suspect anything of them. He even... Oh, also, H.H. Holmes even tries to get Ned to take out a life insurance policy on Julia and Pearl and then have, like, H.H. Holmes as a beneficiary again. God. So at this point...

Point also, the Chicago police don't suspect that H.H. Holmes is doing anything bad, even though some of the employees are starting to disappear because it's a big city at this time and they don't have the resources. So people are just disappearing all the time. Murder apparently was like running rampant in Chicago. Also, people were getting like hit by trains. Oh, God. Like the 1800s are so scary. So dark in every way. Anything goes. So then Holmes starts charming Julia and they begin an affair.

Classic. Classic. Classic. Saw this one coming. So it takes Ned a year to figure out that they were having an affair.

They all live in the same house. Wow. Denial. I mean, truly like trying to protect yourself because you have to know. Ned ended up saying that like the only person who like treated him the same was his eight-year-old daughter, Pearl. Everyone else was just so mean to him. Everyone's like, we pretend you don't exist and we like it that way. He's like, just go back in the soundproof vault. Yeah, yeah, truly. That's probably where they had sex in the soundproof vault. Oh my God. I bet they did. I bet they did. Yeah. Or all over. Yeah.

The chute going down to the basement. Oh, right. I mean, it's like it's meant for... Something. For something. So he... So it takes him a year to find out. He quits his job and moves away. He's like, fuck you guys. He leaves his daughter, which is really sad. Don't put her... Like, don't involve her. She was the only one who was being nice to you. Yeah. So he leaves Julia and their daughter Pearl behind. Oh, my God.

Well, so it's been a year that they're having an affair. And it's right around this time that the honeymoon phase is over for H.H. Holmes. It always is about the year, isn't it? Yeah. Six months to the year. Exactly. And it's right when her husband just left her. But Julia is like more in love than ever. Oh, so she's not like, what have I done? No, no, no. She's like, thank God he left. So...

Also around this time, Little Miss Julia finds out that she's pregnant with Holmes' kid. So not only is he getting sick of her, she's also pregnant. Oh, God. And she's like, well, now you have to marry me. She trapped him? Yeah, she did. Hey, we've seen that before. We sure have. We've been there before. Have you trapped a man? Oh, not the pregnancy, but just in general. In other ways. Yeah, you guys know. You know what I'm talking about, right? You do it too, right? On the podcast that I've trapped someone by pregnancy. Yeah.

Like so casually, just like, anyway, continue. Hey, it's very good to know us. Hey, that's true. Just imagine what's on our Patreon. $7.99 a month? Yeah, check. So, okay. He's like, you have to marry me. She's like, you have to marry me. And he responds by saying, well, I can't take care of you, your current kid, Pearl, and this new baby. So, I will make you my wife.

Only if you get an abortion and only if you let me administer the abortion. Oh God. How horrible. Oh, that's like some dark...

Power, dynamic, abusive shit. Everything. Who would ever want, who would ever suggest that? No, also like abortions were scary enough by a doctor in this time. Like no one knew what they were doing. So many women died from abortions at this time. Oh my God. Which is why we should, they're healthcare and we should make them safe and accessible. It is true. You cannot make them go away. You can only make them safe. Exactly. Thank you. So, on Christmas Eve. Why Christmas Eve? I wanted to.

Save it for at least the new year. No kidding. Like everyone's miserable that time of year anyways. God. Terrible. Masochist.

The greatest example. Yeah. So, um, home leads Julia down a hidden staircase to the cellar that she had never known about, even though she had been living there for a year. I feel like, can you imagine living in his house for a year and all of a sudden can all, it's like, Oh, look at this room. Once again, run, run. There's a secret room. It's not a safe home. No. So she, um, uh, okay. So then Holmes tells her that he's going to put her under for the operation. Um,

He then gives her a fatal dose of chloroform. And what happens... So, you know, he put it on a rag. Yeah, yeah. Which also is, like, kind of, I think, one of the ways... The only ways, like, go under bacteria.

back in the day? You have to do like a small amount so you wake up. Do like the perfect amount, I think. I mean, I am not a doctor. I don't know. Please do not listen to any medical advice Claire and I say on this podcast. I'm sure you guys know that already. Someone's like, fuck. They put their chloroform down. So he gives her a fatal, it's not funny, I'm sorry, a fatal dose of chloroform. And it's something that happens with chloroform is that your body, as it's about to give out, starts spasming

And this is what gets him off is this process of the body spasming. Yeah. So this is where he gets very excited. So he's like killing her. Yep. Okay. And getting off. He, I'm telling you guys, this episode is disturbing and I'm sorry. Um, so he's like actually getting off. Yeah. So she dies and he begins again, disturbing episode to start skinning her. Yeah. Um,

And he then also takes... He pauses on that and he takes the cloth, douse with chloroform, and does the same to Pearl, the daughter, and kills her as well. Oh, my God. The guilt that I'm sure Ned must feel later is like... Jesus Christ. Tough, tough. So, officially, Holmes, we know, has murdered Julia and Pearl. Other people have disappeared, but we officially know this is happening. I thought he was going to...

Actually, I don't know what I thought he was going to do. Not that, because you're not freaking psycho. Yeah, I thought he was going to administer the abortion and then kill her that way, like bleed her out or something. Right. No, it's just chloroform. That's what he was doing with 10 things of chloroform every week. So instead of burning Julia in the kiln,

Holmes calls on one of his friends who knows how to strip. He worked on the house and he found this out about this guy. He worked at a medical college, so he knows how to strip a body of flesh and put the bones together perfectly as a skeleton for medical schools. So he calls on that guy and asks him to help with the body he's been using for research.

Holmes pays Chapel, this guy, Mr. Chapel, $36 to strip the body and send back the skeleton to Holmes. Holmes knows that medical schools need skeletons and that they don't investigate where their suppliers get them.

He sells Julia's body to a medical school in Chicago. For how much money? Fuck, I have it in here somewhere and we'll come on it. I think it was $200, which I don't know how much money. I have the clericulator come back for probably like a few thousand. Yeah, it's not something that it's like...

worth that. That's for sure. Oh, it's so sneaky because he's using his like fucking medical stuff to like make people trust him. Yep. So then when people in the mansions who also lived in the mansion with them start asking where they were going, Holmes said that they ran off to Iowa. Why Iowa? I think that's where she was from.

And no one asks questions. And there's no find your friends. No. You know, it's just like so much shit. It's just so crazy to think about living in a different time. That is just so crazy. And having no control over like tracking anything or anyone. Nothing. It's just like anything goes. You don't know where anyone is. God damn it. Guys, this is just the beginning of his murders, but this is the end of part one. Get on your... You're welcome. So...

Anyway. But guys, there's horse theft. There's more murder. There's crazy shit going on. You have to come back and listen to part two. And it is start of October. Spooky season. So we're just getting started. We are. We have to learn from these mistakes. We really do. Shows all the lesson in there. And this is our favorite. This is one of our favorite months. So stay tuned for all the good stuff. And we will see you next week. As always, follow us on Instagram at Right Answers Wesley. XOXO. Bye. Bye. Bye.

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