Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
Welcome back to Writing Answers Mostly. Welcome back, everybody. Happy Monday. Hope you're feeling good. Hope you're feeling fresh. Mm-hmm. Yep. That those Sunday scaries didn't get to you? Well, maybe not because of the... Wait, where are we in time? Never mind. Were you thinking it was Labor Day? I was thinking it was Labor Day. No more. Goodbye, summer. Goodbye, summer. Honestly, for good, this summer was...
It did feel like it was an endless summer, not in like the cute way of like endless summer. It was kind of like, let's wrap this up. This feels dark and I don't like it. It did feel a little dark. Cruel summer took on a whole other meaning. Wow. That is true. If you know, you know. If you know, you know. So.
We're heading into fall and we are excited about it. We hope this podcast has given you a little bit of joy. Yeah. In the darkness. Yes. That's what we always hope to be. That's true. A couple laughs. Yeah. A couple tears. A couple cringes. Cringes. Probably a lot of cringes. Yeah.
Yeah, but you know, I'm really emotional. Yeah, please. You're here for a reason. Yes, exactly. So today, I am bringing the topic of Jim and Tammy Faye Baker, also later known as Tammy Faye Baker-Messner. Whoa. Whoa.
I'm so excited about this. I am so excited too. I've been just like trying not to look at anything. I know. Tess doesn't know anything about this and it's so hard because I want to tell her everything as I'm doing my research.
I literally know nothing. I was sending her pictures of them, which obviously check out our Instagram at right answers. Mostly we will have pictures of them. She thought that they were country singers at first. Yeah. I don't think I knew what the hell was going on. What she did. Tammy did sing. And I don't know, maybe it was the look of them that made you think that they were country singers, which is sad. They're very sad. Immediately. Just like, yeah, that's the type country singer. Done. Done.
Yeah. But I actually didn't know a lot about them until I had a friend that was auditioning for the film that will be out this week, this Friday, September 17th in theaters only. Oh, yeah. The Eyes of Tammy Faye. And.
And it's directed by Michael Showalter, coming out September 17th, as I said. Jessica Chastain is Tammy Faye Baker. I mean, she can do no wrong. She can do no wrong. She's phenomenal. She's a chameleon. She is. She really is. And wait till you see her. We're going to watch the trailer for it after we record this episode because Tess, again, knows nothing. Yeah. Even like – I'm trying to not spoil anything. People have wanted to talk to me about it and I've told them to shut the hell up. That's what I've said. It's also starring Andrew Garfield. Oh, God.
Wow. I love him. I do too. And he looks so great in this. Like hot? No. Oh, wow. Just like he does a good job. Yeah.
That's impressive because he's a good looking man to really transform into that reaction that you had. That takes a lot, guys. Yeah. No, it does. And it is also starring Mark Weistrack, who is the lead singer of Midland. And our good pal Jordi works with Midland and we are big old fans. We are. Shout out to Jordi. Shout out to Jordi. You're an angel from above. You are. You're a legend. You are literally a legend. In your own words.
He didn't call himself a legend, but that is his favorite word. I agree. I stand by it. And Mark looks like he does an amazing job in this, and I truly cannot wait to see it. Are you going to see it in theaters? We have to go. Yeah, we should. No, we're going. I haven't been to the movies in so long. I know. Same. We are going, and we're going to enjoy ourselves. Can't wait. So everyone else, make sure and check it out. Listen to this episode, and then go see the movie. Yay! Yay!
We are drinking white wine at the moment. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, whoa. Yeah. Already. I know. Same. And I love that. Same. Yeah. Yeah. Bright and crisp. Obvious wine. Love this brand. Me too. It's so good. Love this brand. It says it's best friends with pasta, avocado, and sushi. Same. We love that. Like all those things. Tess asked me what drink we should be drinking for this episode. And I...
I had to kind of think because with religious people, you don't associate drinks so much. But white wine, I associate with manic women people.
Yep. And I can't say that Tammy Faye was necessarily a grounded woman at all times. Got it. Yeah, Claire did say a little white wine and pills. Yes. You kind of foreshadowed. What else really? I guess maybe a vodka. Vodka. On the rocks and pills too is something that's kind of dark. Yes. Well, I thought about maybe like a sparkly cup with vodka in it. Oh, a sparkly cup with like a straw. Yeah, tons of ice. So you think that it's water, but it's not. Yeah.
Or like a big gulp with alcohol in it. That's what we really should have done. A hundred percent. Oh, my gosh. And Diet Coke. I'll get to that later just to remember. But yeah. But white wine was what it is. I'm proud of your choice. I respect it. And thank you for this offering. Yeah. Wow. Oh, also, just real quick. Before we get into it, I just wanted to give a quick shout out to our editor, Chris. Chris Cruz. What an angel. To know him is to love him. And what is this? Episode...
Six, I think. We've definitely grown up a little bit since the start of this. We've had to experiment and to do some things, and he has been there every step of the way. Holding our hands. Holding our hand. Laughing with us. I think he's endeared by us. I think so, too. We hope that you guys are, too. Chris, is that true? Let us know. Check yes or no. I also, last thing, and then we'll get into it. I want to be very...
sensitive to our listeners and respectful. This episode contains multiple accounts of sexual assault and just a trigger warning before then. This may not be the episode. If that is something that you have dealt with and upsets you, this may not be the episode for you. Absolutely. Yes. And we respect that. But without further ado, let's get the show on the road. So Tim,
Sorry, Jim and Tammy Faye Baker. Their couple name would be Timmy Faye Baker, I would say. Yikes. I made that up. Okay. So Jim and Tammy Faye Baker, just because I, again, I don't think you know anything about them. Literally nothing. Were among the most famous televangelists in America. They were legendary in the 80s as co-hosts of the PTL Club, which PTL stood for Praise the Lord or People That Love.
Either one. Take your pick. Take your pick. Choose your journey. It was a Christian talk show and then later a network. Together, they raised hundreds of millions of dollars for PTL. And we're living a life of luxury with multiple houses and expensive cars.
But their empire all came crashing down amid sex and financial scandals. Oh, shit. Oh, yeah. Buckle up for this little riot, guys. It's always the evangelicals. It really is. No, but like actually. And we'll see that. So many dark secrets. God, can't wait. God, I love it. Okay. So who were these people?
Tammy Faye Baker was born in Tamera Faye La... Sorry. Tammy Faye Baker was born Tamera Faye LaVallee in International Falls, Minnesota. Minnesota. In 1942. You can't say Minnesota without saying Minnesota. No. And if you don't think of Drop Dead Gorgeous, turn off this podcast right now. And go watch that movie. History of Drop Dead Gorgeous. Oh my God. Done? Done. Done.
When she was three, her mother and her father divorced, and her mother then married a widowed textile mill worker. Widower? Textile mill worker? Doesn't matter. He had a partner that had passed, and then they married. She had very humble beginnings. She grew up in a house without indoor plumbing, and it was in Minnesota. Yeah.
So I don't know where that went. No, it was good. It was cold, which meant they had an outhouse in the back. So every time you had to go to the bathroom, it was an outhouse in the back. Oh, yeah. She was the oldest of eight children. Two were born from her original parents, I think her and another. And then when her mom remarried, they had six more children. Oh, damn. Yeah. That's a lot of kids. And all the kids only got to have a bath once a week. Once a week.
with water that was heated up on a stove and then poured into a metal tub. And the way that they did the order was the kids lined up in order of cleanest to dirtiest. And they bathed in that order, like cleanest goes first and then the dirtiest go last.
Once a week. And she said, she once said, I thank God whenever I get into a bathtub because I never had that when I was a little girl. Wow. Oh, that's really sad. It was really tough. And like, that sounds like 1800 shit. That does. But she was born in 1942. Wow.
Were her parents religious? Well, she had a strict religious upbringing, but her mom's divorce dramatically shaped Tammy's childhood, particularly the way that she was treated by the church, which viewed divorce and remarriage as a form of adultery.
Oh my God. Which doesn't make any sense. Here we go. I gotta just like prepare for this now. Buckle up. Yeah, literally. Oh yeah. Stay calm, stay calm. Oh yeah. To the people of Pentecostal church, my mother was just a harlot is what Tammy Faye said. So I think her mom was religious. And then after that experience was like, uh-uh. Yeah. Like maybe these people aren't here to support me. Yeah. Don't like that one bit, which is, you know, how religion should be. That's true. The purest sense of the form. Yeah. Um,
So the church was so strict that makeup basically meant you were going to hell. Like if you wore makeup, which guys go look at a picture of Tammy Faye Baker, because her eyelashes were larger than her face and her later life. So she made up for it. Interesting. Probably because the lack of anything. Exactly. You're going to want to more. Yeah. It's so true. We've seen this time and time again. We sure do. We sure do. We never learn. Um,
Yeah, so when she was 10, though, she had an epiphany of sorts, which she describes in her 1996 autobiography. At the Pentecostal church, she said she began speaking in tongues, prompting her to promise to devote her life to religion. Like it just came out one day? That's what she said. Right. You never know when it's going to hit you. You never know. It could happen to us in this episode. It's true. I hope it does. The power of Christ can make you call us. We need some more viewership. Yeah.
That's going to take us to the top.
That's the thing with Pentecostal churches. They're so intense that way. And that is the thing that they're speaking in tongues. I'm sweating so much. Me too. It's just dripping down. Yeah, it is. But we're – We'll stop saying this at one point, guys. When we get into the fall, we'll be less hot. I can't wait for it. I know. It will be nice to not be roasting in here. It sure will. Okay. So that was Tammy Faye's child. Background 11. She's speaking in tongues. Wow. Prodigy. Yeah.
Okay, so let's talk about Jim. James later noticed Jim. Orson Baker was born in Muskegon, Michigan in 1940. He was the son of a working class family. His family is devout growing up, but he wasn't particularly super focused on God. He was just like, whatever. He's like, he's chill. He's chill about it. He said...
He grew up kind of isolated and kind of lacking approval and ultimately love from his parents. We've seen this before in history, too. We sure have. It doesn't turn out well. We know how it goes. Yeah. Not well. Not well, bitch. No. So when Baker – this is tough. When Baker was about 11 years old, a man from his church who was in his late 20s or early 30s approached him one Sunday night after church and asked if he would like to go to a drive-in for a hamburger.
Jim was super lonely and was, quote, odd that this adult would want me. The man was a member of the church, so Baker's parents weren't concerned. Guys, let's be a little more concerned. Okay. Oh, God. Yeah. So at the restaurant, the man, again, quote, this is from his autobiography, gave me his undivided attention. I felt wonderfully special.
After they ate, the man drove to the edge of town and kept going. They drove down a deserted dirt road and stopped. The man assured Baker that everything was okay, and he unzipped Baker's jeans and began to touch him. This is so devastating. Jim Baker said, I felt almost proud that he would give me so much attention. I thought, so this is what having a buddy is all about. This must be what the big guys do.
And he continued to do this through Jim's adolescence. Oh, wow. Which is just so tough that he just didn't have any attention and love as a kid. And finally, it's this adult being like,
I'm choosing you. I mean, that's like the sick thing about grooming is like, that's exactly right. How it is embedded in you. You're like, Oh, this is affection. This is love. This is normal. Yep. And especially at 11, when you're just learning about your own sexuality, you can't get any attention from your parents. No. So that's like, you're kind of brainwashed to believe that that's okay. Yeah. And then there's this guy from church that your parents let you go with. They trust him. Yes. He's older. He's in the church. That means he must be safe and a good person. Exactly. Devastating. So,
Jim didn't have an easy childhood either. Um,
And high school, Jim was kind of this great showman and put on these school fundraisers. And he was like that guy that was always kind of doing the most. Which, again, he probably didn't have any attention. So he had to go get that wherever he could. Had he told anyone at this point? He never told anyone until he wrote it in his book. Got it. So he did tell his parents. He literally didn't tell anyone in his life until he wrote it in his book. Damn. Yeah. It's really tough. Yeah.
The turning point in Jim's religious life, because remember, he's chill about the religion thing. He's cool. He's a cool boy. I like it, but whatever. For sure, yeah. Was when he ran over a three-year-old boy.
Oh, God. My mic's falling. Oh, God. Sorry. The mic couldn't believe it either. Yeah. He was like, what? I don't know why I referred to the mic as a he. That's right. Well, he could be a he because I'm talking at it instead of having a conversation. It's a little scared of you. Yeah, exactly. Okay. So Baker had just dropped off a friend at her home and was pulling up to church on a snowy Sunday night, setting the scene. It's funny, but I can't. He felt a bump.
So the boy had slid down a snow bank in front of the car.
Because the kid survived it? Yeah, which also I'm like, I feel like that should be more of an awakening to God for the kid and not so much you. Yeah, he's like, I almost murdered this boy. But I didn't.
God is on my side. Where were this kid's parents?
Was the three-year-old just wandering the street by himself taking a walk? The 60s. Oh, yeah, probably. So parents are like, do what you want. They're like, go around the block. Yeah, we'll see you when you're 18. Run around a bit. Yeah. That's true. Exactly. It's snowy. It's dark. Go have a heyday. Oh, God. I know. It's so bad. This poor child. Yeah. But this is just like, I don't know, a premonition. Just like a glimpse into the future of Jim Baker being like, it's all about me. You know what I'm saying? Classic. Classic. Classic.
Men and religion. Okay. So in 1960, Tammy Faye and Jim Baker meet while they were students at North Central Bible College in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Nothing sounds worse. Well, just wait. God. Both grew up in Midwestern Pentecostal churches, felt alienated from their families, and loved the stage. So they met and were like, ew. Theater majors? Probably. Theater slash Bible study majors? God.
Can you think of anything more troubling? Add that she's a horse girl. Oh, and add in that? Forget it. Forget it. She's not, but I'm just like adding to the mix here. Imagining. So imagine something worse. On their first date, they went to a Wednesday night meeting at the Minneapolis Evangelistic. Evangelistic? Evangelistic. Yeah.
The Minneapolis Evangelistic Auditorium, where Baker had become the youth director. This was their first date? Yeah. So when someone asks you to go on a hike and you think it's bad, maybe think that it could be worse. Wow. Puts everything in perspective. I've never gotten over that. But now... But now, I mean, you could go to that. Or like an AA meeting. Yeah. That would be tough. That would be...
I feel like we would have so much to discuss. Yeah, there's a lot of bad first dates, but that would probably be up there. That might be great for you. Hey, that's true. I'm being judgmental. I am too, but that's not great for me. Yeah, I'm thinking about it.
With how we would act. Yeah. Oh, I would be shocked. Shocked. Well, I mean, it worked out for them because they went out the next night and then the next. And on the third date, Jim asked Tammy to marry him and she said yes. What? Third date. Also, I need to put a little visual of them together. She's not wearing a ton of makeup at this point. No.
She hasn't got there in her journey yet. Oh, God. But they were both very small people. Tammy was only 4'10", and Jim was 5'4". And at one point, she said he weighed 130 pounds, and I weighed 73, and we looked great together. I would crush that man. Crush that man. Could pick him up, fling him around. Throw him. As far as I can see. Yeah.
By 4 and 130 pounds? Like, maybe when I was 9. Perhaps. And she's 75 pounds? Yeah. As an adult? Yes. Like, not well, bitch. Again. No. That's the phrase for this episode. That seems... Yeah. She was tiny. Very tiny. Yeah. So, married or proposed on the third date, obviously they hadn't probably kissed or anything, right? Because in like... No. And I feel like, and this is me...
assuming here but that's what we're here to do it's true they definitely just wanted to have sex no yeah i mean that's all that is a huge problem with these kids that get married so quickly that are religious yes put a ring on it and put it in in put it in like that's me assuming things again but like i mean wow third date yeah this was the 60s yeah and they're both
Yeah. Damn. Can you imagine having your first kiss until your wedding day? No. No. No. I can't. Wouldn't want to. No, wouldn't want to. There's so many things. Like, let's take some trial runs on a few things. Anything. So, that was that. Yeah.
Were their parents supportive? I don't think that they really knew. So when they got married, she has eight siblings. He thought that she was an only child because they didn't really know each other. And she went to his house to meet her parents. I think that his parents were probably more like whatever about it. From what I've seen on the trailer of the movie, her mom does not seem that supportive of it. But she went to his house and was like, wow, this guy has running water problems.
He's rich. I was going to say she probably felt like safety within that. This is my savior almost. Yeah. Exactly. Which she had never really had that before because her stepfather also didn't really pay her much attention. So she had really never had male attention in her life. She found like a comfort in him in every aspect. Exactly. Exactly.
So that's that. Let's see. Again, guys, I'm back on my phone and my phone locked. We're back. They then dropped out of their college because apparently at this Bible college, it was against the rules to be married.
Which is interesting. I feel like it would be opposite. Yeah. Wouldn't they support that? Yeah, but they didn't. Because they want you to wait until after you graduate? Maybe they were like, maybe just wait past three dates. Or like so you can have a full learning experience of the Bible before you commit to this. Yeah. Maybe. I don't know. Who knows what their thinking was, but they were like, you're married, you're out. Wow. So they were kicked out. They were kicked out.
Well, I think that they knew they were going to get kicked out and then they dropped out. Yeah. Jumped the gun on that. And they hit the road as traveling evangelists. Is it evangelists? Evangelists. Evangelists. I'm just going to look this up real quick just so that we know because I have to say it later in the episode. Evangelists. God, there's just so many fucking different. Evangelists. Evangelists. Evangelists.
Never thought we'd be screaming that one. Yeah. Never thought we did over a bottle of white wine. Here we are. So they hit the road as traveling evangelists. Evangelists. You learn something new every day. A day without learning is a day wasted. New Instagram bio. Yes. And that is why you tuned in here.
So they would travel from church to church in the Bible Belt preaching and healing people. Like literally that whole thing of the power of Christ compels you and then people are walking again. And like speaking in tongues. Yes. Definitely speaking in tongues. Tammy's been doing it since she's 11. She's a pro at this point. How do they have money at this point to be doing it? Well –
For, you know, Jim would preach, Tammy would sing and play the accordion. She learned how to play that. I don't know if that made her some extra money. But they were only paid like as little as $30 a week. And one time they were only paid with a live chicken. And you have to kill this. Turn this into a human and show me that God is real. So they weren't paid anything at this point. So were they like...
Like, were they going to motels? I think they probably, I mean, I don't know, but they would probably stay in really gross hotels or stay with families or stay at a church. But like, they were not getting paid anything at this point. That's true. I'm sure churches were like, you can sleep here for two days. Yes, exactly. But if someone were like, do you, well, we don't have money, but we have this chicken. I'd be like, no, thank you. Gross. I think I'd rather not. Yeah. Just like.
This is a freebie. This one's on me. Yeah, yeah. She actually kept that chicken and made it her pet. She did? At one point. That's what they say. I'm not surprised. Good Minnesota girl. She kept that chicken. So then Tammy develops her two little puppet characters.
She's very into puppets is where she starts to go. She would be. Allie Alligator and Susie Moppet. And they were for the kids that came to see the healings. Like the parents would bring the kids. And so they were kind of like the kids segment of that thing. She worked the puppets behind a small set while Jim stood out playing the front man.
Peter kids. Peter kids. Yep, yep, yep. So the puppets were an immediate hit. I mean, it's the 60s and 70s. This is like Sesame Street Prime. Oh, that's true. Puppets were huge. Yeah, they really were. Isn't that a weird thing? Puppets had a moment. History of puppets. History of puppets. I feel like that's so dark. I don't even want to touch that. No, I think I could get into it. Yeah, it gets dark. But it was a huge hit for them. And it brought...
The bakers, it brought them to the attention of Pat Robertson, who is another televangelist. And I was like, who is this Pat Robertson guy who is still well known today? Shall I read a quote of some of the things he said, maybe about feminists? Please do. Okay. I'm sure we'll have the same views. I'm sure you will. Can't wait to bond over it. Yeah. So Tess, this is what Pat Robertson has to say about feminists.
which also not that long ago that he said this. The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians.
That's Pat Robertson on feminism, everyone. Wait, I definitely have heard that before. Yeah, he's full of things. When did he say that? I would have to look it up. But he has tons to say about everything. I mean, I totally agree with him with the witchcraft thing. Of course. Like, that's all feminists want to do. Totally. And become lesbians. Why not? At least you wouldn't have to deal with guys like that. There it is. And there it is.
So Pat Robertson, great guy. Great guy. I'll let you guys think of some adjectives for him. For sure. Use your imagination. Yeah, exactly. He had just started a small Christian television station in Portsmouth, Virginia, and he hired the Bakers to do a kid's show, and they called it The Jim and Tammy Show. Oh, wow. So they like... They made a name for themselves. Based off of like...
Like children. Yeah, traveling with puppets. Interesting. And he was like, kids love it. What would the puppets be saying? Would they be speaking in tongues? Oh my God. The puppets speaking in tongues. That's so horrifying. I don't think that the puppets, I don't think that they ever spoke in tongue, but they would like,
And so Tammy Faye, I was watching an interview on her and she seems really, really pure. And she truly was like, one of them was just a stinker and the other one was very sweet. And so he showed kids how to deal with that and how to be nice. Right. So it was like Sesame Street for Christian kids. Well, I will say, did you ever watch Veggie Tales? I never did. Okay. Shock that I did. Yeah.
Shots that you did. If anyone watched VeggieTales, you know. I didn't know this when I was little, but it's vegetables that it also do with the Bible. I know that you genuinely did not know it had to do with the Bible. I know I didn't. And that makes me laugh so much because literally they're like acting out Bible scenes like Moses. Literally. And I was like, what the hell is this? Look at that guy parting the sea. Good for you, cucumber. He likes to go swimming. Yeah.
Exactly. So they were like, VeggieTales would not exist without Jim and Tammy Faye Baker. Who knows? All full circle. It's all full circle. Oh, we're going full circle on a few things in this episode. So stay tuned. So now they're on TV and Tammy has said it was a dream for Jim. He loves the public. Yeah, I bet it fucking was. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
So the show launched in September 1965, and it was a huge success, drawing a large live audience every afternoon. And remember, 1965 is when America is just now getting TVs into every single home. Oh, that's true. So it's like the revolution of TV right now. And they're like front and center. Yeah, exactly. And it's not like this special thing that some people have in their house, like in the 50s. Everyone's starting to have it in their house. Right.
And so they're going to capitalize that and their show, the Jim and Tammy Faye show, the set had become more elaborate over time. It started out as just like this kind of charming house with a front porch and such. And the bakers actually ad libbed all of the show.
Oh, well, good. They're good at improv. They are. I mean, impressive. Yeah. Second City who? Wow. You could say that they started improv. They were the inspiration for the Upright Citizens Brigade. All of it. Totally. Same theme. Same background. But like five days a week and like it was all improv. That is hard. And did they have good viewership? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, they were growing and growing. And yeah.
I mean, it was, they, people loved this because it really showed how their personality was. But they would have like thousands of people as they were growing in the audience. It's live audiences every single day. And we'll get there, but. Was it all like evangelical people or it was kind of broader? I think so, no. I mean, I think it was pretty evangelical, which I also feel like evangelical Christians are such a specific type of group with this specific type of content. Totally. Like there are Christians and then there's like,
the evangelical Christians. A different level. And especially Pentecostal Christians. It's like a whole other thing. Yeah, that's true. That's my take on it. Anyways.
And yes, they were really spontaneous and goofy and they were really like themselves. Also, I forget they're 19 and 21 at this point. Oh my God. They're children themselves, honestly. Wow. Starting this. And it began to build and build. And eventually kids waited up to four weeks for tickets to go to the show. And Zippy the Mailbox, which was a fixture on the program, received as many as 5,000 letters a week. That was like fan mail. Wow.
So they grew like crazy. And at this point, are they getting pretty rich? Not quite yet. But they're richer than $30 a week in a chicken. And yeah, they were super charming. And Tammy Faye does seem pretty precious. Like I think she really was the good one. And sometimes the bakers continued off-air arguments during the show with Tammy using the puppet's voice to say whatever was on her mind. Good for her. Yeah.
So it's like they're doing the kids show, but she would continue their arguments and like tell Jim what she thought through her puppets and in her puppets voices, which I'm like, I wish I could say I was more mature than that. Right. But like, I do it. She's like, I don't feel seen by you. I don't feel heard. Like actually.
Like actually. And that she said that was her therapy. Like that was her way to like speak her mind and go through these arguments with him. Wow. Being like, Susie, if you would just pick up your underwear every once in a while. She's like, God. Wow. So she probably didn't have that space at home with him. They probably didn't have a good relationship. Definitely not. So she did it on national TV. Art is therapy. Quote me on that.
Tammy Faye Baker agrees. She sure does. And she, you know, got out her emotions through her puppets.
So the bakers are becoming minor celebrities. And before long, they were tapped to host a Johnny Carson style talk show. Oh. So like a late show only geared towards Christian Christians. So apparently Jim and Pat Robertson had an agreement in the beginning. Like we will come do this kid show for you, but I want to make sure that I will have a nighttime show, like talk show on your network one day. A nighttime Christian talk show. Yeah.
That was the dream for Jim Baker. I haven't seen anything like it. No. Yeah. I can't imagine what it's like. Yeah. Well, we'll have to like do some YouTube. I'm sure it's just wild. And so began actually the 700 Club. Have you heard of the 700 Club?
No, it's still on today. It's very much a show. That's like when you're flipping through channels as a kid and you're home sick. I always saw what 700 club was on, but I never knew what it was. But apparently it's like a Christian talk show sort of thing. Yeah, I don't know. I never seen it. It's like ran by. Hold on. I'm going to adjust my. Oh, these people.
It's ran by like ABC. Like it's still on, I think it's on Freeform today, which is so strange. Oh yeah. Originally on ABC. Yeah. But they started that. Yeah. ABC family. There it is. ABC is. There it is. There it is. Um, so they started it and it's still going on. Um,
But as it's going on, I feel like these two men's egos were starting to butt heads. I feel like Jim Baker and Tammy Faye Baker were becoming huge. And Pat Robertson's like, why are you getting bigger than me? And I also feel like Jim was like, please don't tell me what to do. Right. So Pat Robertson fired Jim Baker. And they say it was over philosophical differences. But I think it was just two men's egos. Yep. It always is. It always is. Yeah.
So the Bakers peaced out at CBN, the Christian Broadcasting Network, where they were. And then Jim was like, let's make our own network. And they did. So their new television show launched in late spring of 1973 called the PTL Club.
Full circle. Praise the Lord or people that love. Again, choose your journey. Yep. Yep. Yep. Which, again, it was a lot like the 700 Club. So it was like a tonight show for Christian content. The series makes glitzy, I'm doing this in quotes, glitzy entertainment with down-home family values and preached a prosperity gospel. Wow.
which is where we get in trouble later. And I'll explain a prosperity gospel, which is basically like, if you give your money to me, God will provide for you. God doesn't want you to be poor. So give your money to me and he will give money back to you. So it's like a scheme. Some might say that. Some might say that it's trusting in God, but some might say that it's a scheme. I would say it's a scheme. Right. It's not good.
But that's what they started on. That's what Jim was like really into. But it started being filmed out of a furniture store in North Carolina. Jim and Tammy Faye also had two kids at this point who had grown up on television with them, who was on TV with them at all times. And,
which I think is troubling. Yes. I mean, we've seen this before, haven't we? Yeah. No, it's the child stars. It's tough. So they would put them in like little skits. Yeah, exactly. And like put your kids in school with other kids, but they were on, um, they're like brainwash. Yeah. They were on their sketch shows with them. Um, so PTL's group growth was huge. They're right at the TV revolution and there isn't a ton of Christian content at this point. Um,
Christians were, you know, dying for more Christian content. And they capitalized on that. The staff on the show expanded from half a dozen in 1974 to 700 by the end of 1979. Wow. In 1978, they take their show and create a satellite network so they can beam PTL across the entire world. Wow.
And in 1978, PTL did begin transmitting programming 24 hours a day on RCA satellites. Tess, the only people who are sending out TV transmission from space at this point before Jim Baker is Ted Turner and HBO. So Ted Turner created CNN, all of that. And then Jim Baker comes in. Oh my God. What? What?
Like what? I didn't know that they would even be able to have that big of a following. Like I thought like it was a very small community. Like they're intense, but it's small. They started in a furniture store and now they're transmitting from satellite. And this is so revolutionary. I mean, literally only Ted Turner and HBO and then Jim Baker.
I wonder how many evangelical Christians there were at this point, like in the country. Wow. I mean, enough for that. And not only the country, the entire world, which is crazy. Wow. So there...
huge at this point. So at this point they are rich. They are rich. And then people are literally like throwing cash at them being like, save me. Quite literally, quite literally. So what exactly is happening on PTL? So the daily show was the centerpiece of PTL's programming. So that would be something like the today show.
It broadcasted live and recorded on tape five days a week from 11 a.m. to 1 p.m. It's a lot of work, five days a week. Yeah. Also, I'm like, what are you guys talking about? What were they talking about? I think they were talking about daily events, but with God. Right. So...
So that's what I think they were talking about. It was in front of a studio audience too. Like people buy tickets to come see them every single day. So this is like Jimmy Kimmel. Yeah. I wonder how much tickets were. That's a good question. I don't know that. So much boob sweat. So much sweat. It's so hot. Tammy also had her own little segment called Tammy's House Party. Oh, to get a little wild. Yeah.
Tammy was always like, let's push it a little bit. She's like, I'm taking shots. Yeah. Water. Holy water. And I like that about Tammy. Same, same. She was noted for her candid discussions of topics that were considered taboo amongst many of her evangelist peers, ranging from penile implants. She had a segment on her show about penile implants and erectile dysfunction.
Like God, if God wants you to have a boner, he can.
You will have a boner. You will have money for this surgery. Right, right. No, I think that it truly was just like, this could help you if you have this problem. And it's like, I don't think she talked about necessarily God in that way. Just being like, you have erectile dysfunction. Yeah. Even if you're a man of the church. Yeah, exactly. And so they did a segment on that. And she also said,
Is later known and is known now actually to be an LGBTQ icon, I would say. Really? She was, yeah, she at the height of the AIDS epidemic in the 1980s.
Tammy Faye interviewed Stephen, I believe his last name. I know I'm going to get this wrong. Peters? Peters? She interviewed him from Satellite because they could do that now because they were the third ones doing that. They can do anything they want. She interviewed him and he was a gay Christian minister with AIDS. And during this, they discussed his sexuality coming out, his diagnosis with AIDS, and the death of his partner. Now, she did say...
Don't you think you just haven't given women a fair try? I was going to say, I'm sure it wasn't a very explorative kind interview. You know that she didn't necessarily understand what it meant to be gay. We'll say that. Right. Like you chose this. Yeah, I think like she probably was like...
I think she probably would think like, you chose this, but I support and love you anyways. Where a lot of people might say, you chose this and you're going to hell. Right. Like, you're a Christian, so I'm still here for you. Yes. But like... Which obviously now we know it's not a choice. You were born that way. Clearly, we don't need to, you know, whatever. But she addressed her viewership, and this is revolutionary, by saying...
I have chills.
And that's huge. But that's like, I mean, that is her platform for someone that big who has a fucking satellite. Yeah. To say that, that takes a lot of, I mean, that's risking their audience. I don't think that the network, her network was happy that she said that at all. And also, I feel like we have to remember this is in the 80s when...
The president of the United States was not even saying the word AIDS yet. Well, yeah, I was just going to say what like people that weren't evangelical Christians would not even talk about it. Normal people. Yeah, exactly. And people were afraid to touch people with AIDS. And here's this woman saying that we as Christians should be the ones going up and putting our arms and loving people like that. It's like Princess Diana when she took off the glove and she, oh God, no, don't, don't, don't make me cry.
Yeah, there weren't a lot of people doing that. No. That was like, you know. Exactly. Because Diana doing that, people were like, oh. Yes, exactly. And here's this woman who is supposed to be evangelical Christian saying like, and she said like, because he was by satellite, she was like, I want to put my arm around you, you know. Wow. And that's a game changer. Yeah, it is. You know, and to say that, that's huge. Yeah.
So, yeah, the network, I don't think like that at all. But she was like, who cares? What about Jim? Fuck off, Jim. Who knows? I think that Jim wanted to do whatever the network wanted to do. Yeah. So I think she would say those things and he would be like, you've got to stop saying those things. Right, right. And, yeah, I don't think they were on the same page as that, of each other on that. Yeah.
Yeah, but she advocated for the viewers of the PTL Club to follow Christ and show compassion and pray for the ill. She also invited drug addicts on the show to interview them about substance abuse and to see where that's coming from instead of just being like, they're gross, they're drug addicts, like to really understand them. Interesting. I'm surprised. Yeah, so she really, I think Tammy Faye really had a big heart and actually wanted to do good for people.
Can't say the same about Jim. Yeah, so Tammy had her segment and Jim was more on the ministering side and all of that. So people liked her more? I think that people were just so endeared by her. And I think that they saw, like, I think people were like, Jim's a man of God. Right. Like, oh, we love him. Yes, exactly. And like, oh, Tammy Faye's so sweet. We love her. She has a big heart. Yeah.
She's more of the personality while he's more of like the minister. He's in charge. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, they actually, you know, it's also interesting where we are in politics now. I feel like religion sometimes sways where politics are, where their show actually was kind of bipartisan. They had Jimmy Carter and they had Ronald Reagan on, you know, so they had.
both sides of the political aisle and they have and also it's crazy that both like presidential candidates were on this show I mean but this show is but they're like hey yeah like it's getting out to everyone totally crazy um yes it's Tammy had her segment Jim was more on the ministering side and he would close the show every day by saying God loves you he really does if I
I had that on my Instagram. Do it. Do it now. People would be like, what? People are like, are you guys okay? No, we are not. We're trying to. God loves you. He really does. That's how he would end every show. That was like his tagline. That was his housewife's tagline. Wow. That's him holding a Bible. Jim Baker holding a Bible. God loves you. He really does. A little wink.
Tammy's in the background. Exactly. With her puppet. Dancing. Bravo people. If you know, you know. You know, you know. Okay. So the money is now, I'm getting to your question. The money is pouring in. Do they have money? They have money. The PTL Club generated $120 million annually in the 1970s.
Wow. To fund his enterprise. So how do you get all this money, right? Truly. Jim hosted telethons. Like this is described as the Wolf of Wall Street of fundraising. Dark. Yeah, but I also saw Tessa's eyes light up because again, Leo. A little bit. I was like, yeah, always. Any mention of that, it does make me not happy. She truly is like, what? Yeah. So he would ask viewers to sign up for monthly pledges to become PTL Club partners. Wow.
And clearly he was great at fundraising. He's been doing this since he was in high school.
But a lot of it was faith or was sorry, was fear based. Because like, if you don't donate right now, this Christian network is going to go into the ground for sure. And again, like we need your money. We are providing for the world. And if you don't give us this money, then this is all going to go away. It's such a manipulative tactic. Exactly. People fall for it. Well, people would drive through the night to deliver them checks.
For how much? What was the average amount that they were giving? Timmy Faye said people would send us mink coats, diamond rings, deeds. I mean, we got all sorts of donations. People would give everything that they had because they thought that they needed to save this network. Meanwhile, they're making $120 million annually. So this is all just going in their back pocket. They...
Yeah, they are getting very rich off of all of these donations. Yeah, he would preach things like, if you don't have money, give anyways and God will provide for you. Prosperity gospel. Baker later admitted...
that I got most of my sermon ideas from other preachers without much reflection. In much of my sermon preparation time, I simply picked out some motivational principles, then scanned through the Bible to find a verse or passage that supported what I wanted to say. I simply pulled the verses out of context and used them to justify my God wants you rich theology.
He admitted this later. So he's literally like, I did nothing. Yeah. And then people were just like, here's $100,000. Actually, because like he gave people something to believe in and then threatened to take it away from them unless they give his money. And people also so desperately want to be a part of something. They want to be a part of that club. They want to be accepted. They want to be in it. They want to feel like they have a place in this world. I will just say... And people will do anything for that. Anything. And it's so sad. It is. I will say again...
Jim is doing this fundraising and I do think Tammy was on the side like fundraising but Jim's doing mainly the fundraising Tammy's promoting self-acceptance right I will just say this we'll get it well it's like Erica and Tom almost I am so glad you brought this up I knew we were going to discuss this if you're watching Real Housewives of Beverly Hills right now
Tom Girardi is being accused of laundering money from orphans and widows of a plane crash and using it for his own and his wife's own interest. Yes. And the question now is, did the wife know? And it's always like...
Either way, whether you knew or didn't know, I don't, like Sutton says, ignorance is not an excuse. Exactly. Okay, so they moved their headquarters from a rented former furniture store to a 25-acre lot of land and a mansion on Charlotte's south side. In 1978, Jim and Tammy Faye used $200 million of PTL's funds to build Heritage USA, a Christian retreat and theme park.
Theme park? Just wait until you hear about this. Oh, my God. It was 2,300 square acres. Attractions included a 163-foot water slide, a 14-foot high fiberglass moose, which is so unnecessary, a 501, I don't know why it couldn't just be 500 rooms, but 501-room luxury hotel, a massive indoor shopping complex. This is my favorite part.
It had a feature called the upper room and the upper room is a replica of the room in Jerusalem that is believed to be the site of the last supper. The idea became that it wasn't even a replica of a holy place where miracles could happen, but that it was actually was a room where miracles actually happened.
So they started putting out press that people would go there and their ailments were cured and their psychiatric issues went away and that Jesus was in that room to heal.
It's so unfair. It's so unfair and it's also so American to have a Jesus theme park. It sure is. And it's also American that they know that millions of people are not even going to question it and the legitimacy. It's just going to be like, oh, we're going to go. We're going to be healed. It's just so sick. It's like all these grandmas spending money and going to Heritage USA and sitting in a room and being like,
I don't have arthritis anymore. Do you think that was pure manipulation from them? Or do you think they also were so crazy, Tammy and Jim, that they were like, we do think this place does heal? Or do you think they were just so... I think the more that you start to see about Tammy, I think that you start to have more soft spots for her. But I think Jim 100% was like, these people are suckers and we're going to take their money. Yeah, that was more of the mentality. That's great. 100%. I don't think he actually thought that. I mean, he...
He admitted that he pulled Bible verses out of thin air and just made them to whatever. At the time, Heritage USA was the third most popular theme park in the United States behind Disney World and Disneyland. I need to look this up. Yes. And you know what the difference between Disney World, Disneyland, and Heritage USA tests? Heritage USA enjoyed tax-exempt status. Of course they did. Because it's a religious organization. Oh, show me the water slide. That does look fun. Wow, that water slide though.
I mean, you don't do that every day. That water slide is no joke.
But the hotel itself is not that pretty. Well, I mean, I don't think it even needed to be. That's true. Also, like, the clientele was probably going there. God, that's true. They're not, like... I won't say. I'm going to get some more of this one. Yeah, yeah. You got that, baby. But Tess is, like, very passionate about Disneyland. I do love it. Can you imagine, like, smoking a joint and then going to Heritage USA? I would feel so, like, terrified. I know. Well, I mean, also, like, what is with this moose? How big was it again? What's the point of it? Just look at it?
Yeah, well, they were like, why don't we put a 14-foot-high fiberglass moose in the hotel? Yeah. So, here it is, USA. They were creating a town, essentially. It does look like a little fake town.
It all looks fake. I also feel like this isn't as shocking to me because I grew up going to Branson, Missouri, and all my Southern Midwest people who are around Branson, Missouri will know what I'm talking about with places like Silver Dollar City. But it's also like, I feel like Christian theme parks aren't totally crazy, but not to this scale. What makes them Christian? Yeah.
um well the this theme park had like the healing room right right but other stuff but i i never went to christian theme park but it's more just like a very strange odd like americana theme park kind of like what this is and branson is like very filled with that kind of stuff our california girls getting to know yeah we're just raging waters if you know you know
Yeah, we'll talk about that story another time. That's true. I will do the history of my own traumatic experience at Raging Waters if you'd like to know. DM me. Yes, it is. It's the best story I've ever heard in my entire life. And we'll get to that. Okay, so here are some other ways that they're using their money. In 1984, after shopping at luxury stores in Manhattan, they had a $24,500... What? Oh, yeah. Okay. I'm going to do this again.
In 1984, after shopping luxuries... Ugh. You got it. You got it. Okay. They shopped in Manhattan in 1984. They added $27,500 in jewelry. One item was a $6,000 diamond bracelet to their homeowner's insurance. They stayed at the Waldorf Astoria, complete with a fireplace and a grand piano. Later that year, the couple chartered a Gulfstream for $107,000 to a flight to Palm Springs.
Jim bought three luxury cars, including two antique Rolls Royce, totaling $170,000. They own several expansive and expensive homes, two in Palm Springs. Their dog house, this was huge later on. Their dog house had air conditioning. People could not get that out of their mind. Their doll house had it? Sorry, their dog house. Oh, yeah.
Which I feel like you would do. I would totally do that. Yeah. Palm Springs is hot. Yeah. It's unsafe. Yeah. It's not, it's, that's not a crazy thing. I stand, I'm on their side now with everything, with everything I'm on their side. Uh, but people like held on to that later. Um,
So PTL paid for an endless succession of maids and security guards. One time the bakers needed their clothes in California, so the church paid $100,000 to fly their wardrobe by jet from North Carolina to California. Ugh. Yeah. And they continued to collect hefty salaries throughout the financial crisis from 1984 to 1987. I don't know what their salary was, but, I mean, if you're buying...
vintage Rolls Royces. Yeah. And if you're having your clothes shipped on a private jet, you know that life is okay for you. Yeah. So I know that we've been talking about them for a while, but this is where things get to be pretty dark, darker than what we've been talking about. Oh. So I want to talk about a woman named Jessica Hahn. Have you ever heard of her? Jessica Hahn.
Sounds familiar. I know. I feel like I've heard her name, but I don't really – I couldn't tell you anything before I did this research about her. She – I think your mom would definitely know who she was. Yeah. And anyone who lived through the 80s and the 90s would definitely know who she was. Oh. Okay. So Jessica Hahn –
uh was born and raised in Massapequa New York she grew up in a Catholic family um her father leaves before she can even form memories of him but her mother told her that when she was born he refused to hold her so again sad stuff there it is yep she had she had a difficult childhood she felt very isolated and was bullied for her weight as a kid when she was 14 she walked into a
Quote, charismatic Pentecostal church. And she said, she said she was completely on her own. She was there with her two-year-old brother. Nobody told me to do it. So when I walked into this church, it changed my entire life. I felt that I had everything I wanted. I instantly felt complete. She said that she thought to herself, this must be what falling in love feels like. She finally felt worthy of being in love. So sad. Yeah.
So sad. And I think that is, again, like what can be great about religion is that that gives people a sense of community and hope and belonging. Some people take advantage of it. Right. This is what she felt. Okay. So in 1980, Jessica Hahn is 20 years old. She's a secretary at a church. She's been on two dates in her whole life at 20 years old.
She said she was afraid of boys and didn't date because she would measure potential boyfriends against the ministers because she felt safe around men in authority. Troubling. So troubling. And it's like not her fault, you know, for feeling like that or for even having those. It's not her fault at all. Yeah. And that's what's just so sad, you know? Yeah, exactly. That was her truth. She grew up watching PTL and was a huge fan of her, of PTL and of the Baker since she was in middle school.
So in 1980, this traveling preacher who also appeared on PTL named John Wesley Fletcher goes to Jessica and is like, hey, Jessica, we have this amazing thing you can do for God. You're going to come down to Florida, be of service to God, and help out Jim Baker. And I mean, Jim Baker is an idol to her at this point. Like a celebrity. Yeah. The biggest celebrity that you could imagine. Yeah.
So they purchased tickets that she could go to Florida and babysit. She was told that she was going to babysit Jim and Tammy Faye's daughter.
um while the bakers and fletcher did a telethon for a local christian station in florida um and she was told that jim and tammy were having problems and that this would be a huge service to them and she was also told we can tell you this but you can't tell anyone else but we can tell you this because you're family and we trust you and since you're doing a huge service of god we can trust you um
By the way, she doesn't have money. They just purchased a one-way flight for her there. She's the secretary of church. So they go to Florida and they go to this hotel room. She's with Pastor Fletcher. They go to the balcony. They look down. There's Jim Baker with his daughter at the pool. So it would be like you going and seeing Leonardo DiCaprio. Thank you for bringing it there. Thank you. Bringing it back again. I appreciate that. So he's with his daughter at the pool. And she's like, oh, good. There he is. He's with his kids. Like, that's great.
Fletcher gives her a glass of wine, which is inappropriate. Has she ever drank before? Probably not. She's also 20. I don't know what the drinking age was in 1980, but I mean, that stopped me before. Right. And then he went to get Baker. When the two men walked back into the room, Baker was wearing only an itty bitty white terrycloth bathing suit.
Gross. Ew. Like, terrycloth bathing suit? No, thank you. It's like a terrycloth cover-up, but not a bathing suit. And juicy? Juicy. Juicy spa dresses. He was wearing juicy couture. Yeah, cute. She's like, wow, where'd you get that? Jessica Simpson. That's where. Oh, my God. That's where. Jessica Simpson's like, leave me out of this. Literally. She's like, please. So...
After suggesting that Jessica give Baker a back rub to help him relax, Fletcher suggested that he then left because there was religious services later that night. So he's like, why don't you give him a back rub? I'm going to peace out. He's also like, remember, you're doing a tremendous thing for God.
Baker complains that, so then it's just Jim Baker and Jessica Hahn in the hotel room. He started complaining that Tammy belittled him and that when it came to sex, Tammy Faye cannot satisfy me. What he needed, he told Hahn, was a woman to help him cope. He was also like, I can't go on. I can't keep doing PTL. I'm just not satisfied, but you could save me. She doesn't give him a back rub. And again, trigger warning, this is about to get pretty dark.
He starts undressing and then he starts undressing her. By the way, she's a virgin at this point. So this is about to be her first sexual encounter. He first rapes her orally. He finishes and see that she's crying. She told him that she was a virgin and asked why he didn't just hire somebody. And Baker replied, you can't trust everybody. He continues to rape her. She tries to push him away saying you have to leave. Baker replied,
Jessica, by helping the shepherd, you're helping the sheep. What a fucking piece of shit, Jim Baker. You are disgusting. I'm sorry. This is dark. This is the reality of the situation. Then Jim leaves. He pauses. This is so dark to me. He pauses as he's leaving, picks up her hairbrush and brushes his hair with it. So haunting. What a monster. What a monster.
He leaves and Fletcher, the other pastor, comes into the room and said, Jim is so happy. And then he says, but you are mine. You're not going to remember Jim. You're going to remember me. And then he rapes her as well. Oh my God. He then sets the alarm because he has to do a telethon for raising money for PTL at 4 p.m. And then Jessica Hahn is in her hotel room watching them do this Christian telethon. And they're talking and...
Fletcher goes, God really ministered to us today, didn't he, Jim? That's how he ends that. I feel sick. I'm sorry. It's very dark. It's very gross. Oh my God. So then Fletcher flies her back to Florida after this all occurs.
Um, PTL contacts Jessica in the early eighties. And according to her, brought her to a holiday in, gave her $10,000 and had her sign a document saying she was the aggressor that it was actually Jim that was taken advantage of the day after she signed that she was like, wait, I want to take that back. And they were like too late.
So it is so troubling, the use of religion against this poor girl. Literally, because anything that she would say, they'd say, well, you don't believe in God. And that's everything. She's only believed it. That's exactly right. Literally nothing she can do. There's nothing she can do at that point. Everything is you're doing a service to God. You're helping God. This is what you've been living for. Everything like that. And this is a man that she looked up to all of her entire life. They've been grooming her for this situation. Oh, my God.
I am truly speechless. Yes. I'm sorry. This is dark. It's also a long episode. I apologize. We still have some more to go. So she eventually tells her home pastor about it. He is more furious. She says that not because it happened, but because he wanted to be her first. And instead, these men do it. So this pastor decides to go after P.T.L.,
They hire a man who's in law school, not even a lawyer. And at this point, also, the world has no idea that this is happening. Long story short, she is awarded $265,000 from PTL.
However, this is broken down. $150,000 is put into a trust for her to get a little skim off of monthly for 20 years. And in 1985, she gets a $115,000 settlement. But out of that, the fake lawyer gets $95,000 and she only gets $25,000. Oh, so it's still so controlled. So controlled. To their benefit. Exactly. Exactly.
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So while all of this is happening, P-Tale is growing. Tammy is obviously really beginning to resent Jim. She's starting to see his true colors. So she knows the details of what happened. She does not know that this has happened yet. She just sees that he is being absent. He's leaving on the road to do fundraising. Also, apparently raping women. And she felt her role was diminishing on the show. She meets a guy named Gary Paxton.
Gary Paxton was this washed up rock and roll 60s, 70s guy. He said that he was stoned and stumbled into a church in Nashville. And that's how he found God. Hey, we've all been there, haven't we? On a dark night. So he begins producing Tammy's records in Nashville and trying to transform Tammy back into this like leading woman and all of that.
He gave her the attention and support that she craved. And she, I don't think, had had that for a very, very long time. And she fell in love with him. I was going to say, she probably was never in love with Jim. That was so circumstantial. She was so young. Yeah. It was probably her first time actually having feelings for someone. And now, as she's working nonstop, she's just getting used. And then she's getting pushed away. And her husband's a monster and doing horrible things.
He claimed that nothing ever happened. I have heard that there is... You're like, I called him? Yeah, I called Gary Paxton from the grave. And we had a little chat. Apparently, there's a crazy scene in the movie with Gary Paxton and Tammy Faye. And you just have to wait and go see that.
But he claimed nothing ever happened. However, Jim saw kind of some sparks flying and banned Gary Paxton from ever attending PTL because he kind of took over for some music stuff. And Jim also later claims that
That is a fair, he says a fair, which he says a tryst actually with Jessica Hahn was because he was jealous of Tammy Faye and what she was doing with Gary Paxton. So he totally makes sense. Yep. Yep. So Jim Baker is becoming more obsessed with heritage USA, the theme park and making it bigger. He's creating, he's creating a financial house of cards essentially. And he just keeps expanding and spending money and,
He's doing what a lot of successful people do and anyone who would tell him no, he would X out of his life. Tammy's getting exhausted. She's working all the time. In 1987, it was reported that she was being treated for prescription drug addiction. Wow.
There was like times on PTL where she was like high as a kite and she like went to look at the background that was like an ocean and just like laid down on the set. I bet I'd be doing the same thing at that point. Like get me out of this, like hell, hell, hell. Like while they were live. Oh God. Um,
It's not funny, but it's just like... It's crazy. So they, one of his friends had an account that they left me in the house alone with Tammy. And that's when she started hallucinating and she started taking her clothes off. And it just was really dark. Let's see. Two months later, the Biggers disclosed to the viewers that Tammy Faye was being treated for drug dependency. So she's having a breakdown.
And he's just doing the same thing. If you don't give money to PTL, we're going to lose it. One of the ways he secures fundings are these lifetime partnerships to Heritage USA. And what that is, is if you pay $1,000 or more, you're promised three free nights annually at Heritage Grand Hotel for the rest of your life.
Seems like a good deal? Too good of a deal? It is. He sells 115,000 of these memberships and makes $158 million doing so. Well, there's not enough space for 115,000 people to get all three nights. There's not enough nights in the year for that many people to do that.
So there's this reporter in Charlotte named Charlie Shepard and Charlie Shepard kind of takes it upon himself to look into PTL. He's like, something's not right. Thank God someone, thank God someone did. Um, he starts talking to this guy, Al Crest, who is the assistant to Jim Baker or the assistant to Jim Baker's right-hand man who did all the hush money arrangements for Jessica Hahn. Um,
And he was like, where did that $265,000 come from to hush Jessica Hahn? By the way, Jessica Hahn said she never wanted the money. It was her pastor boyfriend who was like, we're going after PTL. She just wanted it to be done, done, whatever. It's very typical of women that experience that. They don't want to talk about it ever. They're like, I literally would want anything to just forget about this. So where that money came from was PTL donations.
So Alcrest was a believer, but he's also like, I know that what's happening here is not okay. So he tells all of this to the Charlotte reporter. So an article is published revealing Jim Baker had a sexual encounter more than six years earlier with Jessica Hahn. So this is six years later that it comes out in the Charlotte Observer. Wow.
So that's out. Apparently, PTL is also now bleeding $2 million a month. And the other thing that comes to light is that Jim Baker allegedly has had a number of same-sex relationships as well.
In 1987. Of course. Obviously. Yeah. Were they framing it, though, like when it first came out that he had an affair or that he raped her? No. It's always been known as the word is a tryst is what Jim Baker has always said, that it was a 15-minute tryst with Jessica Hahn, meaning it was like a little affair. Yeah. He has said that he hired her as a prostitute, basically, and that it was not okay, but it was a tryst.
And in 1987, Jim Baker announces that he's resigning and turned to Jerry Falwell, another well-known televangelist and minister to step in and run the ministry until the Hans scandal blew over. So he's basically like, you take this. Actually, Falwell was like, let me take this over. You get your family together. And then when you guys are ready, I'll give it back to you. He did not do that. And Tammy Faye never trusted Jerry and was like, I don't think we should give it to him.
All of that stuff. And she was right because he never took it back and ended up doing a press conference saying,
Jim Baker saying that he's secretly gay and later actually Fletcher the guy who was with Baker claimed that he had same-sex relationships with Jim Baker at Heritage USA he also Falwell said that Tammy Faye made a long list of demands in order for them to give up plans to come back to PTL that included large annual salaries two cars and made for one year in a furnished house on a lake among other things she
She never denies that. She said, yeah, that's right. I did say that we need that.
So Jim and Tammy Faye are basically out of the thing that they created now. But Jerry Falwell didn't realize how much money PTL was losing, and he leaves as well. The government began reviewing PTL's finances and how they were spending, all the things that they owned. We're coming full circle. As all of this is out, Jessica Hahn gave a 31-page interview to Playboy.
Playboy gave her the space and the publication to say, what's actually your side of this? Yep. And Playboy was actually used as a defense for Jim Baker to delegitimize her stance because they were like, a woman who posed for Playboy and did an article would never get reaped, which is disgusting. Oh my God. I see a picture of this woman. I just want to...
say a little bit of what the article where I know we're kind of running short on time, but I have to say something that is so just important to me to say, because as they're doing the interview, they're,
Just some clips. Okay.
She essentially says in the end of this interview, they took away something that I will never get back, that I should have saved for someone that I love, that should be special. And they stole that from me. And she, you know,
Says a lot of great things about that. And one of the interviewers says, you know, in this moment, I must say, I don't know how we can run this with the pictures that you want to do because she did semi-annuit pictures. And there was another interviewer that was there that was like, I agree. We can do this without the pictures if you want. We can do just the interview. And Jessica Hahn says, relax, guys. I know what I'm doing. I want to do this on record.
I fought a long time to feel like a woman and to feel good about myself. And I'm almost there. And I don't see these pictures as being filthy. I see what they did as being filthy. Oh my God. It makes me tear up a little bit. And that is so powerful. True. And so powerful. And it's so disgusting and so sad that because she did a playboy article that that was used against her to delegitimize her. I mean, of course, like that's what,
Being a woman has always been. It's like, if you're sexy, you know, you deserve this to happen to you. Yep. She was made in victim blaming. It's just so it's just rape culture in a nutshell. And it's disgusting. Wall Street Journal made 1987 when this Playboy article came out the year of the bimbo.
Because Jessica Kahn came out against Jim Baker and also the Donna Rice Gary Hart scandal, which was a politician and had an affair with a woman. And she is described as the woman who brought Jim Baker down, which, no, she is the victim of a man who brought himself down. Wow. Yeah.
So, well, yeah. So all of this is happening. Jim Baker goes to federal trial and is convicted for wire fraud and mail fraud specifically for the lifetime memberships. He was running a Ponzi scheme. He goes to prison for financial crimes for 45 years, serves five and is released on, on, um, appeal. Uh,
Falwell only stuck around PTL for seven months before resigning, saying that they had turned PTL into a scab cancer and cancer on the face of Christianity. Tammy Faye was not indicted, but the big talk was, again, how we were saying, how could she have not known? She was wearing fur coats. She was wearing rings. Right. But the media accepts that she didn't know anything, which I like. We need to do like part two and part three on this because like,
How do you not know? How do you not know? I mean, she had to know something to some extent. I also think that she didn't want to know the truth. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? That's like to protect yourself. Yes. She was so poor all of her life. She was like, if we're doing something wrong, I don't want to know about it. And at least I'm on TV. She liked what it was giving her. Yes. And at least I'm on TV doing good for people. Yeah. Yeah.
But she was honestly looked at as more of the villain than Jim was. Well, once again, being a woman. And that she was wearing all this stuff and that she was kind of tacky and all of that. And he was never charged with rape. Never, ever, ever. He had said that it was a tryst and all of that. It's so...
disgusting he there's just so much sexist things going on here so the aftermath on march 13th 1992 tammy divorced the still in prison jim um she moved to palm springs california a year and a half later and married row mesner a longtime family friend and former contractor of heritage usa so he was one of the top people at ptl also
Well, he later spent a couple of years in federal prison on bankruptcy fraud related to good. Everyone just needs to get out of this fucking place. And like, tell me, like, venture forth. It's insane. Someone that you meet their mutual friend. Yes. Get out of the PTL life. In the 90s, she was diagnosed with cancer. It goes into remission for a while. In 2000, there was a documentary made called The Eyes of Tammy Faye, which is actually narrated by RuPaul.
Oh, really? Yeah. It's a very strange documentary. But I think she meant so well at the beginning. And then the pills got to her and everything. And she became...
really kooky um she actually confronted the charlotte reporter who broke the story in the documentary and was very much like why did you do this why did you have to do this and ruin my life but it's like tammy honey sweetheart you you know you're part of it too yeah it ruined your own life in a way it's so sad so her cancer comes back and a few hours before she dies she actually does an interview with larry king live and she looks very ill but um
She actually, before she died, Jessica Hahn said that they talked on the phone and Tammy said, if I were there, I would give you a hug because she knew nothing about the Jessica Hahn stuff. And they were both kind of victims of this disgusting man, you know? That's true. Jessica Hahn, with the end of her life, goes to live on at the Playboy Mansion in the 90s. She's continually on Howard Stern.
She's now a Trump supporter and lives on a farm with her husband, who's a stuntman. Great. We are, gosh, humans. You cannot put us in a box. You sure can't. Nothing's black and white, is it? Nothing is black and white. After Jim Baker was released from prison, he went to work on launching a new ministry called Morningside, which is in the Missouri Ozarks.
In 2003, he began broadcasting a new daily TV show, The Jim Baker Show, from Branson, Missouri, starring him and his second wife, Lori Baker. And the Bakers now raise money for the ministry by selling end-of-the-world packs. This man is still out doing the exact same shit that he's been doing his entire life.
The state of Missouri filed a lawsuit against Baker and his production companies to stop them from advertising or selling silver solution and related products as treatment for the coronavirus. This man cannot be stopped. He cannot be stopped. He is still out there doing crazy things. This is a long episode. I felt like I flew through the end. It's dark. That is Jim and Tammy Faye Baker. Good God. The darkness is...
I know. I feel like we started on a high and I was like, Tess, I want to tell you all these things about these people. And then now it's just we're going on and I feel like I've ruined Tess. No, no. I mean, these are important things to have discussions about because it really does. It's representative of so many things that are wrong with our culture, especially this country.
You know, the toxicity of any sort of organized religion that is hurting people. Yeah. That you're using it as an excuse to hurt women. Yes. To rape women. I feel like some people would even say Jessica Hahn made that up and used it for money. And like Jim Baker said, she's doing this because it's greedy. And it's like, who's greedy here? I know. Exactly. Who's greedy? It's all people will. Who cares? People will always be.
Their first reaction will always be to blame a woman. Even if you think that you don't, you're kind of probably like, hmm, well, what was she, you know? Yes. Like, and that's just, it's embedded in us. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And it's like... It's so problematic. If there's a woman that you're thinking a certain way of, like, maybe there's a disgusting man behind her. You know what I'm saying? What situation has she, you know, been in? Exactly. So it's a very, it's a dark story, but I, you know...
Hope you can learn something from it. I mean, no, I'm fascinated now to watch the movie. The trailer. Yeah. I don't know if I quite did them justice and Tammy Faye justice because she really was an advocate, I think, for the LGBTQ community later. You absolutely did.
But yeah, it's just, it's a fascinating story and I should have done a part two and part three, because I feel like there's more to talk about, but you did a great job. I mean, that really, that gives me the gist of the gist of it. It's crazy. And you know, also just crazy as we're wrapping up that, that,
These people were so giant. They had the third largest theme park and we didn't even know about them. And it just shows how something so small people get carried away. Yes. In so many different ways. If you're buying end of the world packs from Jim Baker, please stop.
Yes. Like literally. And let's stop him. Yeah. I mean, so troubling. He must be someone. I mean, that's another sick part is that he's out there right now doing kind of what he's always been doing and he served five years. Yeah. It's disgusting. And now he's like, cool, back at it. Yeah. Back at it. What a monster. There's no other word. There's no other word.
Well done, Claire. Thanks. You guys need a break after this one. But go see the movie Eyes of Tammy Faye. It's out September 17th. It's going to be amazing. They're not sponsoring us, unfortunately. But maybe after. Yeah, I wish. They're like, no, no, no.
they're not sponsoring us. We wish they were. Um, but yeah, go see it. I mean, it's going to be amazing to, uh, Jessica Chastain also produced it. Oh, Oh yeah. She has a production company. Yeah. She's amazing. Um, I'm excited now. Yes. And let us know again, what topics you want. Yeah. We got some good ones the other week. Um, yes we did. Yeah. A big range. Um, so yeah, keep, we really appreciate that when we get feedback. So keep letting us know. Keep going. Um,
He'll start to say, God loves you. He really does. Say it. Commit to it. God loves you. He really does. And there it is, kids. Well, God, I can't leave you with that, but we must. We must. Dramatic ending. Yes. Subscribe, like, follow us at Right Answers Mostly on Instagram. You know what to do. See you later. See you later, kids.