Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
Welcome back to Write Answers Mostly, a podcast on what you didn't learn in history class, but you really wanted to. My name is Claire Donald. My name is Tess Palomo. Welcome back, Rammies. How the hell are ya? Spring has sprung. It has. We got complimented on our outfits today, and we are really excited about it because we're dressed kind of spring. Yeah, and like that really...
rarely happens like in the studio you know I'll take it I mean Tess wearing Reformation so how could you not compliment I am I'm dressed like it's 90 degrees and you know what we're manifesting we sweetheart we are manifesting how the hell are you Claire I'm pretty good I have family coming to town next week for my cousin's wedding congratulations Evan and Patty we are so excited to get you all hitched so exciting I have to speak at the wedding and that's on my to-do list oh yeah have you no yeah it's always a last minute thing is when your best work like when there's less like
time to think about it. Yeah, yeah. I'll keep it short and sweet. That's what everyone wants for a wedding speech. But I'm scared. I know. I'd be scared too. I probably will be calling Tess for some reinforcement. I would love. I mean, I can write something and then you can say you wrote it. So I just watched the Sex and the City episode also where Carrie speaks at the wedding where like she doesn't know the people very well. Oh, when people are like talking over her, right? Well, Big takes a phone call. That dick. Sorry. That's right. That's so funny.
And in the middle of her speech? Oh, my God. God, she looks so good at that wedding. The strapless. Yeah, the dress is gorgeous. It is kind of an inappropriate dress for a wedding, too, because it's, like, see-through. Have you been seeing... Are you on the side of TikTok, you guys, where it's like, can I wear this to... Like, is this too inappropriate for my sister's wedding? And it's like...
Yes. Yes. Probably yes. If you have to ask. Yes. Yes. Just leave it for the bride, you know? If it's like an off-white thing that you also have to ask, is this too close to white? Like, just play it safe. It's not your day. I rarely will even wear a dress that has like a pattern with white in it. No, it's best not to risk it. Just play it safe. So anyways, I'm really looking forward to that. Love you guys so much. Tess, how are you? I'm good. I feel like April is like a busy month. It's her birth month, people.
It is my birth month. But yeah, I just was looking at the week ahead and there's just something going on. Weekends are kind of chill up until my birthday, but weekdays are packed and we're booked and busy. We are. And we are giving you the lowdown on Tess's birthday party, everything that's going into it, the
Thank you so much for watching.
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Childhood and present. I know. It's so crazy. These next few weeks are going to be so exciting. It's going to be a whirlwind. They're going to be interesting episodes, too. We're really trying to make sure that when guests come on, it's something that you guys have been requesting. So it's like, you know, we've done some random ones before, but this will be very specific to the suggestions you write in. And we just have an extra person to make it more fun. Exactly. And speaking of suggested episodes...
This is one that has been highly suggested. You sick little fucks. No, but like actually, because so Gen Z is obsessed with this case and I never had heard about this case. I still don't know what the hell we're going to be talking about, but like I feel like my tummy feels like it has knots in it. No, I feel sick too, Tess, because we are covering the Menendez brothers trial. Menendez? Menendez. See, I even thought it was Menendez.
Oh, my. And Mimmininity. It's Finding Nemo. Mimmininity. Because what did we think before is the Mimmin... Oh, my God. Menendez. Mendes. We thought it was the Mendes Brothers. So, Menendez. It's Menendez. Menendez. Shocking. Shocking. And that name has lost all of its meaning now that we've said it so many times. Yes. Just let us keep repeating that over and over. Tess...
What do you know? Not much, Claire. We're hitting the stars today. Because we do this more when we're uncomfortable, too. Well, I do know one thing. Okay. Tell me what you know. Because also, especially this subject, usually with everything in life, like I text Tess when I find out things, exciting things, I want to share it with her constantly. It's so hard when you're researching a subject and I want to tell Tess these things, but we want to leave it for a surprise. So Tess didn't know anything. I was like, don't
And I didn't. And how?
my boyfriend, he ruined it. He did not know that we were keeping this a secret. He thought I knew. If I say it, will it ruin a surprise? I mean, I think a lot of people know about this case, so I am curious to know what you know. He was like, whoa, they killed their parents. Okay, so you didn't know that before? No idea. Okay. And that's literally all. I can only imagine that it's going to be grotesque and gruesome. It sure is, guys. And I'm like, why did they do that? And like,
Well, that's how did they get away? All of the things. So that's why I'm like, I know, like, I feel like that's just the cherry on top. But let's just we will get into it. Grotesque and gruesome is right. I think at the top, let's give a trigger warning. This case is super disturbing and upsetting for a lot of reasons. A trigger warning of sexual abuse and child sexual abuse. I mean, that's
really what this whole case turns out to be. I completely understand it. That's not something that you're interested in hearing about this week. We have great episodes coming up and we will catch you next week, but wanted to get that trigger warning at the top. Got to do it. You got to do it. Okay, Tess, shall we get into it? Yeah. All right. My citations.
48 Hours. They had a documentary on it with Natalie Morales recently. LA Times article. Tess was like, oh, are we subscribed to the LA Times now? I was like, this is adulthood. We support journalism. Of course. Because we are them. Exactly. We are the journalists. Let's put that on our manifest list to write an article for the LA Times. Oh my God, Claire, that would be so good. And be in an article. Does anyone have any connections to LA Times or New York Times? Call us LA Times and New York Times. But literally. E.com because we got to keep it true to ourselves. Oh. Reddit. Oh.
Okay. Court TV. Oh, she has many sources. And our stepfather Wikipedia. We went all over the internet for this one. E.com could be in our family tree. Definitely. Where do you see? E.com I see as like a second or third cousin. Mm-hmm. That's like kind of chaotic and like drinks a lot. Yeah.
Is always drunk. Always drunk. Yeah. Okay. Chain smoke. A distant cousin has acrylic nails. A hundred percent. Yes. Always smells like, not tobacco and peppermint. No. Like pink sugar. Yes. That's what that's saying. Paris Hilton's perfume from 2005. Of course. Yeah. Okay. So we're a distant cousin that has all of those qualities. I can smell it in the air right now. We love it. She's so comforting. She's so fun. She is. Always a good time. Always has gossip. Yeah.
And somehow she gave me Menendez brothers. We never know how we get here, but we do. It's true. Okay. So, Tess, this is an LA story as well for the most part. In 1989, 18-year-old Eric and 21-year-old Lyle Menendez killed their parents, Jose and Kitty. They were both sentenced to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole in 1996 after two trials. The brothers claimed they killed in fear that their parents would kill them after they threatened to expose them for years of sexual abuse. Okay. That's what I had...
Thoughts. These are their stories. Dun, dun. Dun, dun, dun. So here we go. Okay. So background on the family. Their father was Jose Menendez. He was born on May 6, 1944 in Havana, Cuba. At the age of 16, shortly after the Cuban Revolution, he moved to the United States. Okay. He meets Mary Louise Anderson, but she goes by Kitty. Okay.
I know. I'm like, where'd you get Kitty from? I guess it was kind of a thing in like that time. Call me Kitty Cat. Call me Kitty. From Wedding Crashers. So they meet in college. They were married in 1963. They have their first son, Lyle. He was born on January 10th, 1968 in New York.
Kitty was teaching, and after Lyle was born, they moved to New Jersey, where Eric was born on November 27, 1970. So they're two years apart, pretty close in age. Now, in the summer of 1976, Lyle and Eric's cousin, Diane, come to stay with them. She goes to stay with them, and Diane says that Lyle, who was eight years old at the time, confessed to her that he was being sexually abused by his father, Jose. Okay.
Diane goes and tells Kitty, their mom, and Kitty was like, absolutely not. Lyle's is lying and never speak about that again. So Diane recalled that afterwards Kitty put Lyle upstairs and that was the last time that Diane ever heard about anything like that happening at their house.
God, the blind spots that we have for like – that we see in a lot of these stories, partners like husband and wife that they have for each other is really like complicated and really tough. I mean just – I'm not a mom but for me to like hear that about my child, I don't think the first thing I would say is that they're lying. No. It's just like why –
Why? Yeah, it's really tough. Jose starts working for the entertainment industry. He becomes a self-made millionaire. He becomes very rich and successful. He was very driven and demanding. He ends up at one point being one of the top executives at RCA Records. Oh, so there's some rich kids. They are very rich kids. Rich bitch.
Rich bitch. Yes. And this is in the 80s? This is, yeah, in the 80s. That money went further back then? God, didn't it? Like a million dollar home now is- It's a shack. It's not even, I don't think you can get a one bedroom. Like a studio maybe you could buy for a million? Possibly. Maybe. Maybe.
Yeah, it's really sad. So Kitty was like – Kitty managed a house. She was a stay-at-home mom. The boys got very into tennis. She played tennis herself at the country club. She taught morning exercise classes. They were like that kind of family. In 1986, Jose changed careers to a corporate executive.
He joined this production company and they have like a home video segment or something. So he was like the head of that. And the family moved to Beverly Hills. Lyle was 18 and Eric was 16 when they moved from Jersey to Beverly Hills. So they move into a Beverly Hills mansion on Elm Drive. It's 9,000 square foot. It's Mediterranean style. It was previously leased by Prince and Elton John. Oh, my God. So it's like...
A massive house. Do you know where Elm Drive is? I don't. It's somewhere in Beverly Hills. Like just all the mansions lined up. Literally. I feel like it's probably closer to like the main strip of town. Like the, I forgot what they call it on Beverly Hills. When you're driving like to West Hollywood. Yes. Exactly. And those neighborhoods. So nice. Gorgeous. Guys, go on Zillow. Yes. Just go. Truly and enjoy yourselves because you're going to need it after this episode. Thank you.
So Eric attended Beverly Hills High School. Oh. Yeah. He earns average grades, but he's an incredible tennis player. He ranked 44th in the U.S. as a junior, which is major, but Jose was like, you need to be number one. It was very hard on him about that. Lyle attended Princeton, but he was placed on academic probation for poor grades and was eventually suspended for plagiarism.
Hot. You know, apparently when they were around this age, like did some like burglary stuff. They were rich kids trying to get a rush. A hundred percent. Right. And plagiarism is also just a form of just being like, let's risk it. Also like. He cheated. Right. Who amongst us has not cheated on tests? That's how I. Never mind. Now with AI, how are you kids not doing that? I am so curious about that with high school kids. Same. In college. I'm sure they put it through a different.
Also with AI, sometimes you can tell. There's something a bit off. That's true, but it won't always be like that. No, that's the truth. They're getting smarter. So according to those who knew them, Jose and Kitty were very concerned about their family's public image. In a 1996 interview with Barbara Walters, Eric described his relationship with his father as, quote, brutal, painful, torturous, and yet I admired him because he was so strong and he was everything that success was or that I was taught that success was.
abusive relationship. Like you're scared of them and then you also want them to love you. Exactly. So on the evening of August 20th, 1989, Jose and Kitty were sitting in the den of their Beverly Hills mansion watching TV when Lyle and Eric entered the den carrying shotguns. Jose was shot six times, including a fatal shot in the back of the head with a 12 gauge shotgun. Kitty was shot 10 times in total before the fatal shock to her cheek was
She was on the ground, slowly crawling and crying. Lyle ran to his car to reload before firing the fatal shot to her face. Kitty was found lying in a pool of blood in the hallway, shot in the arms, chest, and face. Each was also shot in the kneecap. It was an expression of hatred for these two people.
Wow. Yeah. So the brothers then got in the car and dumped the gun somewhere off of Mulholland Drive. Then they threw the spent shotgun shells and their bloody clothes in a dumpster at a gas station. They bought movie tickets in Century City for a film they didn't see. Then they went to Santa Monica where they tried to find one of Lyle's friends who could serve as an alibi. Unable to find the guy, they drove back home.
At 11.47 p.m., 21-year-old Lyle called 911, sobbing to dispatchers, somebody killed my parents. Ooh, they're playing that card, honey. Yeah. So their plan was to not say that. And then once they couldn't find the friend, they were like, let's just pretend. Let's go back and say that we found them. I mean, risky as hell. But I guess... I can't even imagine. God, we're just like... This was also my process through the research. Like, what the fuck? What are these kids doing? I mean, they must feel so fucking manic and...
Man, Nick. The adrenaline. Exactly. So when police arrived at the scene, 21-year-old Lyle and 18-year-old Eric said they arrived home to find their parents shot to death in the living room. The Menendez brothers told police that they'd gone to the movies to see the latest Bond film, License to Kill, which is irony that they chose License to Kill. But the line was so long that they saw Batman. Afterwards, they said they went to the annual Taste of L.A. Festival in Santa Monica. Then they were taken...
It is like all very close to home. I feel like I just got an email about that. Really? Yeah. Eats con, like the same kind of thing. Yeah. They returned home when they found their parents dead. One of the Beverly Hills detectives described it as one of the most brutal crime scenes he has ever seen in his life.
So investigators initially, like, didn't think that the sons had anything to do with it. Like, why would these two sons kill their parents? Initially, they were like, it probably has something to do with Jose's business dealings. Because at the time, apparently, the mob was, like, really – or the mafia was really involved with, like, home video businesses.
Oh, I have no idea. For what? Literally for what? Well, yeah, the detectives were probably like, this is a rich family. Who knows the kind of shit that this guy is doing? Like, exactly. Always the rich one. He's a millionaire. Pissed off some people. Exactly. However, people who actually like kind of knew the mafia dealings would know that the mob would have never done such a messy job. And like also why take Kitty out as well. They would have just like shot him and been done. That's funny.
Just one shot. Exactly. A little sniper. It's like back of the head. Exactly. So they weren't even on – Eric and Lyle weren't even on their radars. But they didn't stay off their radars for long because the post-crime behavior was very strange. Yeah.
So Lyle at the memorial, Lyle read a letter from Jose that was filled with love and pride for his sons. And his uncle said there was no emotion as Lyle was reading the letter. It was just like blank. Lyle also made a statement that his father had always said that you'll never fill my shoes. And then Lyle says, quote, guess what? I'm wearing my father's shoes today. Oh, sweetheart. It's like a little bit too angry. Ooh. You're so cute.
You're so angry. Like at least pretend. But then that's the thing that people are like, oh, they're emotionless because they're shocked and because they're traumatized. Like so it's hard to know. It's always hard to know. Like how do people react after a traumatic event? Well, it's like I'm thinking of the Amanda Knox thing where everyone's like she acted so crazy. But it's like you can't act crazy if that – if you see shit happen. Right. Then –
Eric and Lyle just start spending their parents' money like crazy. So they received a $14 million inheritance that was supposed to be split between the two of them and Claire Gilear. Oh, thank God. How much? $35 million. Each? No, it was split between. But I'm just like, God, that's how much further the dollar went back. $35 million.
You're set for life? Yeah. Like, truly? Well, they were spending it like they were set for life. So they, in a week, or in the weeks following the killings, Lyle went back to New Jersey where he test drove a Porsche. And he was calling the Alfa Romero he had at home a piece of shit. He went shopping for clothes. He also put down a $300,000 down payment on a restaurant that specialized in buffalo wings. Wow.
I mean... I didn't know buffaloes had wings. And there it is. Jessica Simpson. It all goes back to Jessica. Interesting choices. Yep. 18-year-old Eric hired a private tennis coach, and both of the brothers cruised around L.A. in their late mother's Mercedes convertible. Well, that's chic. Yeah. I mean, they have to. Hiring a private tennis coach. I mean, that's a good use of money. Yeah. You know, that's what you love. For his career. Yeah. They went to London. They went to the Caribbean. They rented a couple pinch houses in Marina del Rey. Yeah.
So they're doing all of this while detectives are trying to still figure out what happened to their parents. It was later said that the Menendez brothers blew through about $1 million in six months, which, honey, I could do that in a week. I mean, truly. But like – But there's more to our story. Lyles later said to Barbara Walters, quote, I don't think it's understandable. People react to it, to a traumatic event like that in different ways.
So, yeah, that might all be strange, but that's not evidence. Like, that's not evidence that you killed your parents. Right. They're just like rich kids are the worst. Exactly. They deal with their emotions in very... They have no emotions. They're brats. Their parents got murdered. Exactly. And this is what they're doing. They're spending because they're sad. Cut to six months later. Oh. The police get a tip.
Why would they do that?
That is the thing with therapy. I think you can't report anything except, I think, if it's like a murder or if you're going to harm yourself. Exactly. So they thought that they were – but also like that – telling a therapist, like that's a lot to put on that person too. And then the therapist – is anyone dating a therapist and do you get the lowdown from their clients? Oh, that's a great question, Claire. Yeah. Do they actually keep it –
Because if I was a therapist, Tess would know everything. I mean, truly. I'm like, this is why I can't be. I wouldn't trust myself. Literally same. And I'm like, nor should anyone. I'd just be like, you never believe what I heard today. Yeah. Or do you just not want to talk about it at the end of the day? That's also probably true. But this one talked. Holy shit. Yeah. So the police get a hold of the tapes. And sure enough, the confession was there. And on March 8th, 1990, Lyle Menendez was taken into custody. Oh, my God.
So just Lyle said it in therapy. They both said it. Lyle was taken into custody because Eric was playing tennis in Israel at the time. Oh, my God. So he surrendered upon returning to L.A. three days later. Okay. Robert Shapiro. Ah! Chris Jenner for Robert Shapiro. Always. Always.
Robert, and if you remember, Robert Shapiro was one of OJ's lawyers, another huge LA case. Yes. Also when Chloe got the DUI, they called Robert Shapiro. And for Kim's sex tape, they called Robert Shapiro. Robert Shapiro is a busy, busy man. We have to get him on. We have to.
The stories, you guys. Like the 80s LA stories that man must have. We have to get him on. So Robert Shapiro arranged the surrender of Eric in 1990. He later represented Eric during the first arraignment until the defense was handed over to Leslie Abramson. So he didn't represent him for too long, but I saw a picture and I was like, Bob? How to put that in there. So Lyle and Eric Menendez were indicted on first degree murder charges in December of 1992. The LA County District Attorney's Office said it would seek the death penalty.
This was two years before the OJ Simpson murder trial would become the most talked about trial of all time, prompting 24-7 media coverage and a new era for cable news. The Menendez brothers' first murder trial also televised pretty much its entirety on Court TV. You can go back. It's all on YouTube and watch all of their testimonies.
It's a really tough watch. I will just say that. Was it as famous and popular as the OJ trial? It set this trial walk so that the OJ trial could run. People were starting to, for the first time actually, being watching it. But only their first trial was televised. And OJ was even bigger because he was a celebrity. But this is what got people started. And check out our OJ trial, by the way. We have a whole episode on it. Such a great one. The narrative...
And there we go. There's always a little hook. They're always doing a, you know, a cliche. It has to have drama in there. Yeah. So that's what the prosecution was going off of. Right.
So in the first trial, in the summer of 1993, nearly four years after the murders, Jose and Kitty's sons, Eric and Lyle, went on trial. So they were in jail for over three years awaiting their first trial. Why? Why?
I called and asked my mom this. She's a court reporter. And she was like, there's just lots of things that you have to like get in order for a trial. You have to find the right juries and all. I don't, I don't know. That's it's, I can't imagine. I can't imagine either. God, I have jury duty in a few weeks. Pray for me. Pray for her guys that she doesn't have to go in. I really don't want to. Yeah. Especially after this sort of episode. No kidding. I'm sorry. I would, it would be awful to be a juror. Like you think it would be fun? No. Trauma
Emotionally exhausting. Horrible. I mean, you know, in the OJ trial, they started like physically fighting each other. I know. It's bad. So they were just sitting in jail for nearly three years. They were separated from each other and other prisoners. This section house high profile inmates such as Richard Ramirez, who is the night stalker, which is a horrifying case, and OJ Simpson. OJ ends up being in the same jail. Yeah.
They ate their meals in their cells and had an exercise period for one hour three times a week. And they didn't get outside very much. One of the prosecutors was questioning Eric at one point. And she was like, how often do you go outside of the jail? And he said it wasn't that much. She's like, is that why you're so pale now? Oh, there's no need to. I mean, we don't need to pale shame. Literally, I'm like, I'm doing my goddamn best here.
So on May 14th, 1993, the judge ruled that the case of Lyle and Eric Menendez would be tried together in the interest of time, cost, and convenience. They would have, however, have separate juries for each brother. Oh, interesting. Isn't that crazy? There's two juries, one for each brother, but they're tried at the same time. So they...
Oh. So both juries are sitting in the room. So same like prosecution. I think they had two different prosecution teams too. Oh, wow. But they're both like going like your turn, your turn. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. It seems so complicated. They're just like, let's wrap this up. Yeah, seriously. Time is money. The question is not whether the Menendez sons killed their parents. They admitted that they did. Right. Well, yeah. It's on tape. It's hard to. Literally. Literally.
Instead, the question in the case was why they did it. So the defense reveals its case, the defense being Eric and Lyle. Lyle and Eric had acted in self-defense after being sexually abused by their father for years. The defense insisted that they killed out of fear and self-defense after a lifetime of physical, emotional, and sexual abuse suffered at the hands of their parents.
And because it was a self-defense case, the brothers deserved a lesser charge and punishment. So they had the defense of imperfect self-defense, which means that the brothers honestly believed that they had to take action to save their lives, even if it didn't seem rational, like even if it doesn't seem like they're being directed
affected. Like there's like a gun to their head. Yeah, even though there wasn't a gun to their head. Right, but it's like a little room for... Exactly. So if it's honest but unreasonable, you're liable for manslaughter but not murder. So manslaughter is killing someone without planning the crime at all. And first degree murder is where it was intentional, it was thought out, it was
planned ahead of time. Never knew. I know. Isn't that always so... Because manslaughter sounds more intense. It seems worse. Yeah. But it's actually not. Slaughter is just not a great word. It's really not. But first degree murder is planning on it. Okay. And then I don't know what second degree... We're not here for that. Yeah. You guys let us know. Let us know what second degree murder is. Do your homework. The first trial, both brothers took the stand. Lyle spoke of sexual abuse from both his mother and father. He said his father began sexually abusing him when he was only six years old.
It started by his father fondling him and then asking him to do the same to him. And over time, it became worse eventually with his father raping him. So we're about to get into some of the testimony, which is very hard to hear. And here we go. So the brothers are taking the stand. Lyle said that the abuse started for him when he was about six years old. Also, this is like...
A 24-year-old man having to speak about this publicly televised, just put that – I just think that puts things kind of in perspective. Yeah. It's just awful that people have to do this. No, I know. And for people to be like, we don't believe you. Exactly.
Really tough. Really tough. So he said it started about when he was about six years old. It started after sports practices. His dad, Jose, would massage him and then Jose would ask him to massage him back and then he would fondle him. He said it started happening two to three times a week. He said when he was seven years old, it became more involved. Jose would take him to the bathroom. Jose would put him on his knees and he would guide him in movements and force him to give him oral sex.
To which the prosecution asked, well, did you want to do that? They asked if a six-year-old wanted to do that to their father. Yeah. It then evolved to what Lyle called object sessions, which Jose would take Lyle into the bedroom and take objects with him, like toothbrushes. And I think that you can put together of what Jose would then do to Lyle.
Lyle testified also that his father would bring home pornographic films and
And they were all very violent pornographic films, like showing gang rape and showing women being abused. And he would force his sons to sit there and watch. And when his son's friends would come over, he would sit them down and put it on. And also when their neighbors came over, he would put these films on and neighbors like had testified. And they were like, it made us feel really uncomfortable and weird. And he was like, look at this crazy movie.
Why would the neighbors, like, report anything? Like, that is child abuse. That's a great question. If you're making your child watch porn, that is child abuse. No, it's disgusting. It's disgusting. Lyle Menendez testified that his father would also punch him in the stomach or whip him with the belt. He said his father once threw him into a coffee table, causing a cut that left a scar on his left eye. Okay.
At age 17, he said when he finally dared to tell his father to shut up, Jose Menendez slugged him in the mouth, leaving his lips scarred. So that's – Lyle said that the abuse stopped for him when he was about eight years old. That wasn't the case for Eric. So then Eric takes the stand. And he said that when he was a young boy –
There was also stuff with their mom. Eric, when he takes a stand, said that when he was a young boy, his mom would show him pictures of her in a bathing suit or lingerie and would like ask him if he liked it when he was a young boy. She would say things to her sons like, I hate you and I wish you were never born. You ruined my life.
The defense presents Eric with negative slides or like film slides. And in these film slides that they're presenting to the whole court, there was Eric when he was six years old, his sixth grade birth or his six year old birthday party and also nude photos of Eric that his father had taken.
Yeah. Eric, for Eric, the sexual abuse evolved over the years. He gave different instances because he, as a child, started naming the different instances. There was knees.
There is nice sex, rough sex, and just sex. And it is so hard to watch these testimonies. Like for the fact that anyone would ever say that anyone would lie about this is actually so crazy to me. Yeah. I mean, like I'm at a loss for words. I know. There's like nothing else to say. Yeah. So it's like this whole case. My God. Yeah.
So Eric said that when he wouldn't excel in tennis tournaments, like when he was 44th and his dad was like, you need to be number one, his father would hit him and rape him as punishment. Lyle, until he said, until he was about 13 or 14 years old, his mother would wash his body everywhere. She would also invite him into bed and force him to touch her everywhere. And he testified, I took it to be love.
Because when you're a kid... And that is, like, the most heartbreaking part of all of this. Like, you just don't know what that is. Yep. And if he ever told her that he wanted to stop it, she would become enraged. Well, I mean, it's just crazy that both of them were doing this. Like, did the parents talk about it? Did they, like... I... How did they, like...
find each other how do they find each other i have no idea that's it's like so unfair to have one parent like that and to have both of your parents i mean that's like unreal it's unreal um so yeah lyle said the abuse stopped for him when he was eight years old eric said it never ended for him may of 1989 was the most recent time his father raped him um and that was just months before the murder
Yeah, and like...
I would also kill my parents if they had done this to me. Like, for your whole life. That's crazy. So Ann Tyler, a Salt Lake psychologist, was the first in a string of experts to testify, so she testifies on the stand. And she testified that the Menendez brothers suffered from a condition called learned helplessness that occurs as a result of intense repeated abuse. She testified that she had no doubt that Jose and Kitty Menendez had psychologically abused their young sons in virtually every way possible.
So those are the boys' testimonies for the first trial. They also had cousins. They had family members, neighbors, teachers, coaches that took the stand to support the claims of abuse. Alan Anderson, their cousin, was a witness. Growing up, he would spend summers with them, and he had a lot to say. He was like, Jose would always whip out the belt and hit them, and Kitty never consoled them.
No witnesses saw them being sexually abused, but Alan said that Jose would tell the boys in the bedroom he would shut the door and then he would take showers with them. Alan said during that time, Kitty wouldn't let Alan anywhere near the room. She would be like, you need to go to the other side of the house. Good God. Cousin Diane, we know earlier in 1976, Lyle confided in her. Their cousin Andy Cano testified that when Eric was 12 and Andy was 10, Eric had told him that his dad was...
his dick and was trying to find out if these massages are normal and he also told Andy that these massages are beginning to hurt. Andy suggested asking his mother but Eric swore him to secrecy. Andy was 15 when the brothers were arrested. He died in 2003 at the age of 30 after overdosing on sleeping pills and his mother told reporters that she's convinced that her son died because he couldn't cope with incarcerations of his cousins. Hmm.
They had a history teacher. I didn't realize a history teacher from Lyle Menendez history teacher that said Jose Menendez was belligerent. The neighbor said Kitty was so negligent that when Eric cut his head on a trip to the mall, she finished buying a pair of shoes before taking him to the hospital for stitches.
So we needed stitches. What's wrong with these people? I know. There was a Vanity Fair article where the journalists interviewed some of the people who knew Jose Menendez, who worked with him. And they said he was also deeply despised by nearly everyone who worked for him. They said Jose loved to humiliate people in meetings in front of their coworkers. He loved to fire people. He loved to threaten to deprive people of their Christmas bonuses a few days before Christmas.
Cruel. His own bonus that year would have been $850,000 on top of his salary. Of course. Classic. Yeah. And then like there's nothing for anyone else. Bye. Yeah, literally. And then I'm going to take away your Christmas bonus right before Christmas. Okay.
Now, Kitty Menendez had said to her therapist six weeks before her death that she was, quote, hiding some sick and embarrassing secrets regarding her family. It's crazy that she was in therapy. I know. And also the fact that these two boys were in therapy. No, I know, which you'd think that they would actually tell them they weren't allowed to go to therapy. Exactly. But there's also some sick shit of like.
We know you'll probably like need it. I don't know. Or like some sick shit of like, I will choose your therapist and like almost control you in a way. Exactly. Yeah. It's very interesting that all these people were in therapy, especially in the 80s. Yeah, that's shocking. It is. Well, here are some terrible things that the prosecution said during the trial to these young men. Lyle's prosecutor, Pam Bosniak, argued that, quote, men could not be raped because they lacked the necessary equipment to be raped.
Do you know human anatomy? No. Apparently she doesn't. Are you an idiot? Literally. They called it, the prosecution the whole time called it the abuse excuse. That was their term for it. Oh my God. And they said, they were like, well, they didn't say they killed their parents because they were being abused. They said they killed their parents because they were in fear of their parents. So they probably weren't being abused. Pathetic.
Put the two and two together. It's actually like crazy to me that these are like functioning people. There's like nothing else. They know that they are that they have nothing. So they're just trying to like they know. And one of the most upsetting things is that they really try to paint Eric out as being gay.
I knew something like this was going to happen. Of course. So, quote. So that he liked it? Exactly. Oh, my God. Quote, we have reason to believe that Eric may have been gay. And the reason we wanted to put it out there is because, first of all, that's why Jose was upset. And it would explain how he could talk about sex with a man so well. So even if he were gay, why would he want to –
Be raped by his father. Exactly. There's so much homophobia. There's such a lack of understanding of abuse. Oh, my God. That is...
Revolting. Revolting. To have to say all of your trauma and then to have people attacking you in that way. So much homophobia of like you deserve it or like homophobia is like a sick like fetish. And Eric did say on trial that he was confused about sexuality because of all of the abuse. And that's what usually happens. You then have issues for the rest of your life with your own sex life, with knowing what you like, with –
Of course. Like that affects you for the rest of your life? Of course. It's really upsetting. Is this woman still alive? It was men and women. There's still a woman who works on the DA that was like, and she was interviewed in 48 hours and she was like, they were just brats.
That's what it was. Okay. She needs to look internally and why... She needs some time. She is so angry. She's sitting in a corner and think about what she did. So this is an interaction also that Eric had with the prosecution. The prosecution said, Eric responds, Then the prosecution said,
Is that based on things that you would have liked to have happened to you that you testified to? And Eric said, quote, I definitely would have rather the things that happened to me had not happened to me. That's for sure. Yeah, no shit, Sherlock. They're asking him if these are fantasies that he had. It's like really hard to hear. It's really hard with these cases of like sexual violence and violence.
You know, because obviously there has to be a trial for everything. But like making these people that went through so much trauma have to relive it and question it and put them down and make them feel crazy. I don't know how lawyers do it. How do they sleep at night? I don't know.
It's so sick. And it's like at any point you could be on the right side or the wrong side of history because like the prosecution for this case obviously were like you're discussing your foul but in the OJ trial the prosecution was representing Nicole Brown. These are moments when like you know everyone has like a
second in their life but they're like it'd be so fun to be a lawyer like I love to argue I like get to wear the outfits no absolutely not I would not be happy with myself in our minds being a lawyer is Elle Woods exactly did you wet your did you shower exactly did you take a shower that would be like the only questions I could really ask the perm timeline exactly schnappeth
I know. Yeah. And Eric explained that his mother made it sound worse than death to be gay and ordered him to find a girlfriend within a few months, to which he said he did. Wait, who ordered him to find a girlfriend? His mom. Oh, I thought that was the process. I thought that was the process. I was like, what? Like...
She's just pulling everything out of her ass. This case has gone wild. When about the abuse, they also asked them, well, did you ask him to stop? Which is a crazy question. So you don't get that option. You don't get that privilege, especially when it's being done in your own home by your parent. Yep. Lyle Menendez said, I dismiss what had happened to me as something that had happened to all literal boys.
Yeah, that's your life. You think it's normal. That's your only reality. And your parents are supposed to be the people that you can trust the most. They're your North Star in your life. I know. Prosecutors argued that even if they were abused, it doesn't give them the right to kill. They also argued that the nature of the crime doesn't fit self-defense and that the evidence proves that the killings were premeditated. When the brothers purchased the shotguns, they took steps to cover their tracks, like driving all the way to San Diego to buy the guns with a fake ID.
Kitty and Jose were watching TV and weren't armed. They even paused to reload. Under the laws covering self-defense, the Menendez brothers must show that they faced imminent danger to their lives.
Prosecutors pointed to their inheritance as the motive. They said that Jose told his sons that he had removed them from his will, and based on their investigation, they suggested that after the crime, Lyle tried to destroy a will on a family computer. Lyle denies doing that. If there ever was a new will, it was never found. Yeah, the money. It's just too easy. They just wanted their inheritance, like...
Yeah. And it's also like you can't like really have evidence on that, especially if there's not a new will found. Like they're saying like he was going to change the will. Isn't that like all kind of hearsay at that point? Because Jose is not there to testify. Yeah, there's no proof. So it's like, how can you even use that? Are we? Oh, it's. I think so. The way we are talking right now. I think so. I take it all back.
So, and then the defense argues that a lifetime of mistreatment at the hands of the Menendez parents instilled a fear that altered the son's perceptions of what harm seems imminent. Do you think now self-defense is like the same as in the 80s and 90s? Like, if you are being raped, you're like, you can? I think that we have a completely...
better understanding for sexual abuse. Yeah. Like what they're saying, like they're, what is danger in their mind is already so altered. Right. Because of that. We're going to take a quick little break here, take a deep breath and we will come back. Okay.
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Okay, and we are back. So like we were saying before, the prosecution is like, it's not self-defense because they did all these things like going to San Diego to buy the guns and all of that. So here is what the brothers said their timeline of the events leading up to the crimes were. So Eric finally confided in Lyle about the abuse going on with him. I
at age 18 just a few days before the crime so this had been happening to the two of them but they never talked about it which is just so sad
Eric said one of the reasons why he never told Lyle is that their father threatened his life. Yeah. Eight years before, Lyle Menendez said he had confronted his father and told him to stop the sexual abuse with Eric. So I guess I think Lyle probably knew that something was going on. But for Lyle, it stopped at eight. So I think he probably thought it also stopped. And they did tell their therapist what was going on? They did.
They never talk to the therapist about sexual abuse, which is also something that the prosecution is like, well. Well, you didn't tell anyone. But there is so much shame around that. It's truly though. And if it starts happening when you're a kid, you're just like, that's what every parent does. And you're trying to process that whole thing within itself.
So from with all of this, Lyle came up with a plan. He would confront his father again in order to stop the abuse. Lyle said, we held all the cards. If the abuse did not cease, the brothers would disclose the wrongdoing to outsiders. This is something that could ruin my dad, Lyle Menendez said. So they addressed their mom first, saying, hey, we know this is going on. It needs to stop. And Kitty is like, Eric's lying.
She's such a piece of shit. Oh, my God. Nevertheless, he said when his father returned home from a business trip late Thursday, he met his father in the study and told him he knew, quote, everything that was going on between him and Eric and it had to stop. He said Jose Menendez responded, quote, you listen to me. What I do with my son is none of your business. I warn you, don't throw your life away. Just stay out of it, end quote.
Um, Lyle said he called his father a fucking sick person and warned him that if the abuse didn't stop, he would tell everybody everything about him mentioning the police and other relatives. He said, Jose Menendez responded. We all make choices in our life. Eric made his, you made yours.
And from this, Lyle said that that felt like a threat to him and that he thought they were in danger and that they had no choice. He would kill them and he would get rid of them in some way because it would ruin his father. Yeah. God, I wonder the point, too, of, like, when they both were like, this isn't normal. Like –
Yeah. When is that? When is it? I mean, I guess like the older you get, the more exposure to life and other people's families. Yep. And the prosecution also tried to use that. They were like, this is an 18 and 21 year old boy. You can't force them to do anything. And it's like when you've started that abuse since four years old or six years old. Yeah. And like their father clearly was a psychotic person that had such a hold on them. Yeah. Why is no one talking about like, like the
That's just crazy. I know. So Lyle said that him and his brother thought about running away, but there was no place that they could run that their parents can find us. They thought about going to the police, but he was like, we were in Beverly Hills and my dad was the super rich guy with a lot of power. Yep. He's like, the police wouldn't believe us. They couldn't protect us. And then they would go just tell him where...
Totally. Immediately. Totally. I mean, we saw that with the OJ trial. Oh my God, we see this with so many things. Yes, OJ was so in with the police. Like, Nicole called the police so many times and he only got arrested once. This is just the thing with, like, sexual abuse. You do not want to talk about it because you don't think you're going to be believed. And you know that the person in power is going to have more power. Exactly. So they ended up driving to San Diego, a city Lyle Menendez knew from playing tennis tournaments. Lyle also played tennis. Exactly.
And they bought two shotguns using a driver's license of Lyle Menendez, one-time roommate for identification. So they use someone else's ID.
Um, on Saturday they went for this like shark fishing trip as a family. Um, and they, the brothers were like, we thought they were taking us on a boat and that was how they were going to kill us. And so, and the people who were on the boat testified later, the brothers like hid together, like in this corner of the boat and the people on the boat were like, that's really weird that they're acting like that because they thought their parents were going to kill them.
Um, on Sunday, Lyle Menendez said he was talking with his father about an upcoming tennis camp. He said, Jose Menendez replied, what does it matter anymore? And then he said, I took that as my dad's sarcastic way of saying you're dead.
So that night Kitty said she told the brothers that they couldn't go to the movies and Jose Menendez ordered him to wait alone upstairs. So I don't know if that was to Lyle or Eric. He guided Kitty by the hand. Jose Menendez led her into the den and locked the doors. So then Lyle was like, I was sure that was it. I just freaked out and I thought they're going to kill us right now.
And so that's when the brothers went to Eric's car, loaded their guns, returned to the house and burst through the den doors and just started firing. Yeah. And then when the firing ended, Lyle Menendez says the brothers were surprised that the police didn't arrive immediately. They picked up the empty shells and then, you know, went and did all of their things. And then he said by the time they called 911, Lyle said,
I was really raw. I was crying for crying sake. Like, I think all the emotion really hit them at that time. Yeah. And then they decided that neither one that we wouldn't confess to the crime, too. So that was the first trial. After six months of this trial, both juries deadlocked. It was a hung trial, basically being like they could not come to a conclusion of whether it would be manslaughter or first degree murder.
And it was declared a mistrial. Oh, my God. So it's like all for nothing? Lyle Menendez said it was just a devastating result. I just needed it to be over one way or the other. I mean, like, truly. It was literally all for nothing. Oh, my God. So...
They have to go to trial a second time. Prosecutors try the case again. Nearly two years had passed since the first trial. So this is what now almost six years after the murders had happened. Crazy. The retrial begins on October 1995.
This time there is only one jury for the brothers, for both of the brothers instead of two. Different jurors? Different jurors, yep. Which again, it's like how do you find jury people that don't know anything about this case? Yeah, really though. In LA and don't have any bias with it. No video cameras were allowed this time in the courtroom. And there was a new team of prosecutors that were trying a new strategy.
The first trial, the prosecution team were like, okay, maybe there's been abuse, but like you can't be a vigilante even if there was abuse. The second trial, they were like,
They're lying about the abuse altogether. There was no abuse. They're just doing it for the money. They made that up. What made it easier for the prosecution to say that they made up the abuse is because Lyle decided he didn't want to testify. He was like, he said two reasons. I was just done after the first trial and I didn't have the attorney that I trusted to ask me these deep personal questions. So,
The judge ruled that they could only use evidence based on Eric's claim. So anyone that had talked to Lyle, anything having to do with Lyle, they could only, they had 50 witnesses in the first trial for abuse. And this one, they have like something crazy, like nothing.
I wonder how Eric felt about that decision. Do you think he supported it? That's a great question. They also had not been able to like talk with each other. They're so separated. They're just in jail this whole time. They're not like, hey, by the way. Why don't you do this again? How do you feel if I do that? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
I can't even imagine. And also going into this, the DA is like the district attorney is like, we can't take another loss. Like we have to do everything we can for the state to make sure that we win this case. And the judge who is also over the first trial, yeah, excluded the abuse testimony on the grounds that it was irrelevant, repetitive, and in some instances lacking in foundation. Yeah.
How is it irrelevant? That's what the whole thing is about. But then I'm thinking, I'm like, well, the judge, doesn't the judge like work with the state and the district attorney can't take another loss? Rigged. Is it a
Is it even justice? It's not. Is there a justice system? Is there a justice system? Great question, Tess. So because Lyle didn't take the stand, his cousin Diane wasn't allowed to testify about the conversations that they had. Oh, no. The second trial jurors never heard much of the abuse evidence until they had already convicted Lyle and Eric. So it's like now completely just off the table. Yeah.
Now they're like – I mean that is why – that was their motive and now the defense is like, well, we can't even use any of that. They're like, let's just pretend there's no motive. Yeah. That just seems crazy to me. But Eric's defense lawyer, Leslie, fought hard for him. At one point, the prosecution was like, well, his dad even said that he was gay and I'm going to send you this video clip because it will enrage you. And she goes – she starts yelling and she goes –
Their dad called him at F slurs. She goes, that's different. And the judge goes, well, calm down. You're going to get your point across a lot better if you would just calm down.
And have every woman heard that before in their life? We sure have, Claire. Oh, it would just enrage me. When their cousin, Alan, took the stand because he was the one that talked to Eric, the prosecution attacked his credibility and just told him that he was straight up lying. The jury deliberates for days and then they come back out.
And Eric and Lyle Menendez were found guilty of first degree murder. As a consequence, there were only two options left for punishment. One would be life without the possibility of parole or the death sentence. Oh, my God. So in the penalty phase, it's when now the jury has to decide what their like what the repercussions would be. They finally could hear all of the abuse claims.
that were not allowed in the guilt phase of the trial. So they recommended two consecutive life prison terms without the possibility of parole. And several jurors later said that they would have never voted for first-degree murder if they had heard the detailed family history in the guilt phase. Our headphones went out, but I think we're okay. Yeah, we're okay. Yeah. Oh, my God. So, yeah, things would have been – if they could have, like, actually heard the evidence that they were supposed to hear –
That's so infuriating. It's like it set them up just to fail. Oh, yeah. It's horrible. So Lyle and Eric Menendez were sent to separate prisons. Eric was sent to Folsom State Prison. He was later transferred to Pleasant Valley State Prison and Lyle to Mule Creek State Prison in Ione. Since they were considered to be maximum security inmates, they were segregated from other prisoners. Okay.
They were eventually reunited in the same prison in 2018, reuniting for the first time since they began serving their sentences nearly 22 years earlier. The brothers burst into tears and hugged each other at the first meeting. But Tess, that's not where our story ends.
So, more than two decades passed, and in 2020, the case made a surprising resurgence on social media following a documentary where Eric repeated his claims of abuse. Gen Z, I think, was like, wait, what the f*** happened in this case? We love you guys for this. Yeah, thank you. You keep us on our toes. You get it. You get it. You get it.
Justice for the brothers. So 48 Hours had a neuropsychologist, Dr. Judy Ho, and she specializes in childhood sex abuse trauma. And she said that our society has become more knowledgeable about trauma and the impact of sexual trauma. And research shows that just because the brothers delayed reporting abuse, that doesn't mean they made it up. It's very consistent with people who've been through trauma and maybe even feel like it's their fault or a shame. Mm-hmm.
There is also, especially at this time, especially still now, there's a lot more stigma that goes around male victims with sexual trauma. Yes. She also said that the abuse that the brothers described could explain why the crime was so brutal. It was almost like a breakdown. Not that it's an excuse, but it's an explanation that years and years of abuse, they couldn't act to protect themselves. And once they pulled the trigger, it was just like no turning back.
Oh, and also back then, the idea was that a man like Jose, a rich, successful man, would never do something like that. He could never be a child molester. It's the same thing with OJ. He's America's favorite villain.
Like, it's all that shit. So over the years, the brothers have appealed their convictions but were unsuccessful. They would need more than just social media to help make a difference in the case legally. The defense needed new evidence. And recently, that is what they have got.
So, first, a letter. Jose's sister was cleaning out her attic and found a letter from Eric to his cousin Andy that they have – it didn't have a date on it, but they used context clues to piece it together. It was about eight months before the crime, and it's not – and it said –
Quote,
So remember that Andy did testify at both trials because Eric testified. And the whole time, the prosecution was saying he was lying and he was making it up. There's no evidence, yeah. This proves that Andy wasn't lying. Oh, my God. Yep. So that was just the beginning. Then we hear from a man named Roy Rossello. And he's come forward saying that he was sexually abused by Jose Menendez. Okay.
At work. So Roy was a member of this boy band, Menudo, which was really big in the 70s and 80s. They were a Puerto Rican boy band. Ricky Martin was actually in it at one point. And the idea behind the boy band was to keep it perpetually young. Right.
Few of the performers remained in the group past the age of 16, instead being rotated out for young talent. Jose Menendez has ties for the group because Jose was working at RCA at the time and RCA signed Menudo for their contract.
So Roy Rosello, now 54, says he went to Jose's home in the early 80s at the direction of the band's manager, Edgardo Diaz. Roy would have been between 14 and 15 years old at the time. Roy said he drank a glass of wine and then felt like he had no control of his body. He says Jose took him into the room and raped him. He suggested that this happened because it was to seal the deal between the manager and the record company.
So Roy first publicly spoke about this on a Peacock documentary. He said, quote, I was in terrible pain for a week. I could barely stand the pain. I couldn't even move. He also alleged that he was sexually abused by Jose Menendez on two other occasions, and
And then Lyle's like, I remember the Menudo boy band like coming in and out. And he was like, I did notice that my dad was way more involved with this band. He was like, he traveled with them. He stayed at the same hotels as they did, which like,
The other bans he liked was very hands off. But what does this mean in Eric and Lyle's case? Well, the prosecution position at the time of the trial was that the sexual abuse never happened and that Jose Menendez was not the type of person who would ever do that. This new evidence takes those arguments and undercuts them entirely. Yep.
Their lawyers, Eric and Lyle's lawyers, are now asking their position to be changed to manslaughter and not first-degree murder. If they were to have been convicted of manslaughter, they would have been given a much shorter sentence. And they would have been out a long time ago from prison. I mean, that's just what's so tragic. It's like all this time. You can't get that back. You can't. Because you're not believing fucking child victims. Like, it's crazy. It's awful. It's awful.
So they have filed documents seeking a new hearing. Both brothers are actually currently married. One has already been married and divorced. I think Lyle, which is just – I mean, this case also makes me think of Gypsy Rose. Yeah, yeah. Because it's you're being held captive by your parents and then, like, you know, what's justifying and marrying people in prison. Yeah.
Yeah. It's always a little tough. It is. So the lavish Beverly Hills mansion where the Menendez brothers vaguely shot their parents in 1989 has sold for $17 million this March, this past March. It just sold for $17 million. I don't know. Exactly 28 years to the day after the brothers were convicted of the brutal murders.
So this is actually what made me want to start researching this is because I saw on Instagram, there's this like luxury real estate Instagram that I follow that like shows celebrities. And it just said that this house had sold. Damn. I don't know who would ever buy that house for $17 million. But you know that there's the people that are like, oh my God, it's like the JonBenet house. It's. And people are like, oh, we want to. Sick. I could never. No, I.
No. So Ryan Murphy is also set to release a show about the Menendez brothers this year. It's the same series that the Dahmer series was. And it is always a little complicated because it's like –
Do we need to watch? Like they're still, right. Are you glorifying these horrific things? Which is always like a complicated question. Right. With true crime and all of that stuff. Completely. I hope if anything, it will again expose the injustice to this case to new people. And how like differently we talk about sexual abuse now because it's like we have come a long way, but there's also still so much more to be done. And like, especially with like male stigmas of like,
It's not as important. It doesn't happen. It's embarrassing. Yeah. And now we wait and see and hope that they get a new trial. So they don't know – we don't know yet if they will have a retrial. Yeah, we don't. But who would like –
Who would propel that? So they have an attorney that has filed it, I guess, with the state. And I don't know who decides yes or no. I mean, it seems like that would be an easy thing because it's like the entire thing was like there's no evidence they're lying. Now there is evidence. We know they are not lying. So that seems like it would be... To just get them out. A very easy answer to serve justice and to help these fucking kids. I know. I mean, it's the same thing with Gypsy Rose. Yes, you murdered, gruesomely murdered your parents, but it's just like...
When that is happening to you your entire life, that is – what else do you think you're going to do? Like, I'm sorry. I'm just like – No, I completely agree with you. And also, like, your brain is not functioning on the same level as, like, a person who's not experiencing abuse. Exactly. It is going to psychologically destroy you and make you want to go – yeah, fight or flight. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
I don't know. I'm just like, I feel terrible for these kids. I'm so sorry. This whole week with Tess, I was like, I knew it was going to be tough. I mean, it's a hard thing to talk about. You did a really great job and your research was really detailed and amazing. It's just like, it's so...
It's so upsetting in so many ways. It's so upsetting. I do see why people are so fascinated with this case because it's all like, okay, yes, we know they did it, but let's get into this discussion of- It's just like so many things that are wrong with this country too. I know. It's like the homophobia and the victim blaming and it's just like- It's really troubling. It's really troubling. I know. What we do to like-
Yeah, what we do to victims is just terrible. It's really, really sad. Yeah, it is. Damn. Well, I hope that they receive some sort of justice. I hope so, too. And retrial and get out of there quicker and get some help and get some therapy and some healing for the rest of their life. I did see something that in prison they're both involved with groups of people who have experienced sexual abuse and therapy in that way. So I'm glad that they're doing that.
doing that and like knowing because like the whole thing must be so isolating like they were isolated from each other growing up and then they're isolated from each other in jail so I'm glad that they like know that this is like unfortunately a common thing and that it's not their fault and that they're reunited now too that they're in the same prison I'm really glad that they can be together now yeah yeah
Well, we'll keep you updated once we hear anything. Yeah. I mean, we can do a part two. We can do it on Patreon if there's a premium subscription. If there's any. No more Patreon. No more Patreon. Sorry. Sorry. It's just like that. It's a habit. Change is hard. It is. But change is exciting. It's true. Well, well done, Claire. Thanks, man. Editing this one is going to be a doozy. It's going to be a doozy. Best of luck to you this weekend. Thank you so much. Yeah, literally. Oh, my God. It's coming out next week. Okay. I'll get it done. It's only Wednesday. Yeah, it's fine. We have time, guys. We have time.
We work quick for you guys. That's right. It's not always easy. We're working on Friday night sometimes. That's right. But we love you guys. Go do something nice for yourself to have a little palate cleanser after this. Yeah. Take a couple deep breaths.
And, you know, next week will be – the week after this will be a lot lighter. Yes. Right? Yes. Yeah. I'm like, what's our – yeah. Yeah. It's going to be a good time. Oh, it's going to be a good time. And we love you all so much. If you enjoyed this episode, please post it on your story. Yes. We love when you guys do that. It makes our day. Thank you, guys. Bye. Love you. See you next week.