Waco, How is No One Talking About This?!
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Hi, Rammies. Welcome to Write Answers Mostly, a podcast on what you didn't learn in history class, but you really, really wanted to. I'm your host, Claire Donald. And I'm your other host, Tess Belomo. Join us every Monday as we have a cocktail or smoke a joint and we dive into the juiciest stories from history. Our most popular episodes are the Titanic...

Jim and Tammy Faye Baker, The Romanoffs, Early 2000s, and Salem Witch Trials, so make sure to check those out. And if you want a quicker episode that's 30 minutes or less, check out our Lambie episodes. And as always, follow us on Instagram and TikTok at Right Answers Mostly. We love hearing from y'all. Welcome to the fam. XOXO. Tess and Claire. Hello again. Happy 4th of July, Rammies. Hello.

That's how we feel. Angry, excited, upset. Yeah, that was more of like a cry, sob, scream than like, let's celebrate this country. I'll be celebrating hot dogs and cake more than like legislation. Exactly. Yeah. We don't have to go down that road because we grow tired. We grow so tired. All the women in me cry. That's that quote.

Oh, I don't know. But I mean, leave it at that. That is by Tess Palomo. All the woman in me cry. Yeah. You can quote me on that. Copyright. That's right. Yeah. I mean, I hope you get your day off of work. Hey, it's all that we really can ask for. That's true. It's the least they can do, isn't it? At this goddamn point. No kidding.

How are you? I'm good. Me too. It's almost, we have trivia tonight. We do have trivia tonight. By the time this comes out, we will be reporting that we crashed it. Crushed it. So always like a pre-trivia segment.

Excitement. A lot of times we record after trivia with a slight hangover. I'm glad that we chose to do today. Me too. We did go see Elvis last night. We did, and we're recapping it for our Patreon. So if you want to hear a recap of the movie, sign up for Patreon, which we will have the links to you. Well, I mean, we have to have it soon. We'll get our shit figured out. Don't you worry. In a few weeks. That's right. It will be a slight little membership per month that truly all goes back to us.

Paying for ads, paying for more merch just to promote. So it's really like you get something and we get something. Scratch your back, you scratch mine. Gorgeous. But yeah, how are you? I'm good. I'm about to go to Oregon, which I'm excited about. Summer travels. It always looks so gorgeous when you go in the summer. It's so gorgeous. So I will be excited to be there. That's great.

That's great. And today, just for you Rammies, we always drink a cocktail or smoke a joint. Today, we are drinking June Shine. They're canned cocktails. I have the Passion Fruit Vodka Soda. And I have the Vodka Mule. I just realized that they're 10% alcohol in these. Yeah. And I've already drank in like over half of this and we haven't even started the episode. Wow. That's like two drinks kind of. It says that it's a shot and a half.

This one says two shots vodka. Oh, look at you getting ahead. Wow. Well, you know, we need a little vodka mule for this subject, I guess. No, we definitely do. So Tess, today I'm doing the Waco tragedy. It's also been called the Waco siege, the Waco massacre. Do you know anything about this, the way she's looking at me right now?

I am embarrassed to say I actually don't know what the fuck you're talking about. I don't think that you have to be embarrassed in the slightest. I think I only know about this because of the TV show that came out like 2019. Yeah, I didn't watch the show. I didn't follow this. I know something bad happens in Texas. Wow. Something bad is always happening in Texas. Hard to keep track at this point. Yeah, no kidding. But yeah.

Yeah, I don't, I literally know nothing. I love it when you don't know anything about the subject and vice versa. It's so fun that we get to learn together. I know we should do more of that. Like I was thinking for myself, like I should do something that you just have absolutely zero idea about. Good luck finding it. I mean, that is true. I'm always like, she knows so much. It's not true at all. I don't know a goddamn thing. That is not true, Claire. But now I know everything about Waco. Oh boy. Yikes. I think that this subject is the most...

use of both of these things can be true that I will ever use. And I'll just preface it with that. Whoa. Yeah. Yeah. So, so citations to start off, there's a Hulu. Well, it was on ABC, this documentary called Waco truth and lies. There's a Vox article by Tara Isabella Burton. And there was a podcast from the podcast network called conspiracy theories. Okay.

So I got all my info. And you know, our stepfather Wikipedia was there for me in my darkest time as well. He always is, but we don't really trust him sometimes. No, we don't. We don't. History.com, if you guys don't know, is our mother. Wikipedia is our father. We can't quite trust him, but he's always there. Yeah. Yeah.

And we'll leave it at that. Say no more. Say no more. A trigger warning. There is mention of sexual assault and just some pretty dark content in general. So if that's not something you're vibing with today, obviously we'll catch you later. Right. I mean, whoever vibes with that. Yeah. Yeah.

You know what I mean. Okay. So the Waco siege, also known as the Waco massacre, began in early 1993 when a government raid on a compound outside of Waco, Texas, led to a 51-day standoff between federal agents and members of a millennial Christian sect called the Branch Davidians.

The siege ended dramatically on April 19th, 1933, when fires consumed the compound, leaving some 75 people dead, including 25 children. Oh, my God. We're about to get into...

Crazy shit to us. 51 day standoff. Is that like the longest standoff? They said that it was between a U.S. civilian and the government. I mean, it's like, guys, do something. Figure it out. Like, not figure it out. After two months? Jesus. 51 days. That is crazy. Crazy. So the story of Waco is also the story of disagreements over religious freedom, the rights and boundaries of the federal government, and what it means to be a legitimate religion.

So that's also a discussion point that we have today. What do you consider a cult? Like how much should the government be involved in this kind of shit? Like, oh, boy. Yeah. Some of the few survivors of the siege have expressed anger with the way they feel that official accounts removed Branch Davidians agency, portraying them as victims rather than believers. So a lot of the people who were Branch Davidians who survived still say, like, I wasn't a victim of this cult.

This was my religion and I still believe in it. And you guys are trying to pay me out to be something I'm not. Let's talk about the Branch Davidians. Have you ever heard of them? No. Okay, great. I mean, yeah, they're pretty obscure. So they're an offshoot of the Seventh-day Adventist church.

Fuck, I should have. I think it's Adventist. I think so. That sounds right. You sound smart and gorgeous. And yeah, I was like, remember to look up exactly how you say that before. Just say it. It's part of our charm, Claire. I'm going to break the fourth wall and say it. You guys like when we mess up on things. You do, don't you? So basically what I gather is that they take everything in the Bible literally.

So they like stone women? I mean, pretty much they're like, that happened. Literally a flood came down for sure. And two animals of every kind got in there. Good for them. So everything is very literal. They also really believe in the imminent second coming of Jesus and like an apocalyptic time where Messiah will come down and save those who believe. And yeah. Yeah.

That's a big pillar of their beliefs. And they also avoid eating meat, caffeine, taking narcotic stimulants, which they consider to be harmful. Like they're very strict about their diets and stuff too, which sounds really boring. Vegetarians. Vegetarians with no caffeine. Does the Bible mention anything about what you're supposed to eat? I don't really.

now, I feel like a lot of times with this kind of stuff, it's people being like, and I actually don't love chicken. So we're going to X that out too. We're just going to say that God told us that. Exactly. Exactly.

So the Davidians started in 1930s, in the 1930s by this dude who is a Bulgarian immigrant named Victor Hudiff. He was a Seventh-day Adventist, but was actually like, I think that they're spending too much money on worldly goods. And I believe the Messiah prophesized in the Bible was not Jesus, but was yet to come. So they, and they also believes in this thing called the seven seals, right?

which are events that take place on Earth during the seal-specific time period, which basically just tells you when God is going to come back. There's so much stuff that I'm like, wait, what are you guys talking about? They're like, set a Google calendar reminder for when God comes back. They're like, the sixth seal will be open this day. So we'll see the seven seals come back up today in our reading. So...

You know, they taught there was going to be an imminent apocalypse and that the supporters would build a Davidic kingdom mirroring the empire of the biblical King David during the apocalypse, which is why it's called the Branch Davidians. Got it. I don't know much about King David, but I'm sure you guys can do your research. But they thought that was going to be that big.

that thing. Got it. So after the guy who founded it died, this dude named Benjamin Rodin claims to be hearing messages from God. And so he continues his work, uh,

Benjamin Rodin ends up dying in 1978. He leaves the prophecy and the group to his wife, Lois, who is now head prophetess. Let's pocket Lois for a little bit. Pocket her. Pocket her. You know who I'm thinking of right now. Lisa Renna's mom. Yeah. I know. That Lois, I think, was much better than this Lois. Got it. Shout out to Lois. May he rest in peace. May he rest in peace. So we'll pocket Lois for now. Okay. So in 1981-

Also, the guy that started this whole thing bought this compound in Texas and called it Mount Carmel, which was after a biblical town or whatever. And that's where they lived and worshipped. All of them lived there? Pretty much. Yeah. They all lived there together. Damn. Yeah. So, yeah, it's a biblical mountain of the same name. They said it would be the center of a new divine kingdom following the apocalypse. Yeah.

So in 1981, a 22-year-old convert named Vernon Wayne Howell arrived at Mount Carmel. Let's talk about old Vernon. Vernon Wayne Howell. Sorry, I'm opening up my sparkling water. So Vernon Wayne Howell was born on August 17th, 1959.

Leo. Leo. If anyone's going to- Cuspy vibes though. Cuspy vibes. Yeah. Still in Leo. I think the 23rd is the first day of Virgo. True. If anyone's going to claim their God, it's a Leo. It sure is. Gotta make it all about them. He was born to a 14 year old single mother named Bonnie Sue Clark. Bonnie Sue.

Oh, 14. It's already giving Manson vibes a little bit, isn't it? That's like what I'm picturing right now. Totally. So Bonnie Sue had him at 14. In 1963, Bonnie Sue left Vernon with, so she left with her boyfriend and left Vernon to her mom. So now his grandma's got to raise him, which is also Manson vibes. Check out our Charlie Manson episode. His mother returned when he was seven after a marriage to a carpenter.

Vernon describes his early childhood as lonely. He had dyslexia and he was put in special education classes.

And it's been alleged that he was gang raped by a group of older boys. It sounds exactly like Charles Manson. Isn't it crazy? That's like almost word for word. So tough, tough time growing up. When he was 20, Vernon turned to the church of Seventh Day Adventist, which was his mom's church. But he was expelled because he became infatuated with the pastor's daughter.

Sure, sweetie.

He probably was like, I'm going to open my eyes and pick a Bible verse. And he did it like six times. I'm just like, all right, let's try one more. We've all done that before. We haven't. In different ways. In different ways, we all have. So he was convinced this was a sign from God that he needed to have the pastor's wife. And he told the pastor that. And the pastor was like,

And he threw him out because she was young. And when he continued to persist with the pursuit of the daughter, he was expelled from the congregation. How old was she? She was like 14. Well. And he was like 20. There it is. And there it is. Her mother was 14. No kidding. Wow. Oh, my God. So much is unlocked already. Probably saw that as like an older woman, you know, in a way. Totally. It's like that's the age to have a child. Or he's just a pedophile. Or that too, right?

Or that too. So, yeah, he was expelled from the congregation. God wasn't his only interest though. Vernon wanted to be a, can you guess? A rock star. What the fuck? It's just like Manson. They always do this. They always, it's like, if I can't be a rock star, I will be a religious leader. Why do you think that is? Because I think that you want people to worship you.

You know? Yeah. So same kind of thing. He wanted to be a rock star. He wanted to start his own recording company. It didn't work out. Shocking. Yeah. He played locally around town, but there was nothing coming from it. So in 1981, Vernon Howell moved to Waco, Texas, where he joined the Branch Davidians. He played guitar and sang in church services at Mount Carmel, that good old Christian rock. Yeah.

Also, like that's an innocent thing that religious people can do. Like if it is Christian rock, you're staying within like the core of being sort of like innocent. Yeah. But it's rock and roll. I mean, Christian rock.

Yeah, you probably think you can like be a little bit dangerous, but it still is just. Oh, yeah. It's like best of both worlds. Makes sense, I guess. Yeah. So he started working. Remember our girl Lois? Yep. He started working as Lois, Lois's handyman. A handyman in more ways than one. I see. If you catch my drift. She was like coming over and help me fix my pipe. That's exactly right. Lois was in her 70s. Oh. And he was 22. Oh.

Oh my God, I was picturing this like little, sweet little girl. Nope. So Lois and Bern and Hal start having a sexual affair.

Yeah. Get yours, Lois. Get yours. In 1983, after the affair gets going, Vernon starts kind of taking on a superiority in the group. And he starts modernizing things a bit. He has long hair. He's like a mullet, like long curly mullet. And jeans. He's like rock star vibes. And so he offers like the younger Davidians a more modern approach. Yeah.

And Lois starts allowing Vernon to begin teaching his own message. Because remember at this point, they're like, Lois, prophet, you got it. So she's like getting some. So she's like, yeah, Vernon, sure, you can start speaking too.

Seventies? Like, do you still have an active sex drive in your seventies? I was just thinking, like, I feel like I would be like, please. I mean, I don't know. Maybe if you have a hot 22 year old. That's true. I just know it is a little harder after, you know. Some time. Some time. So also Vernon starts to claim prophecy.

So it starts being like, God is talking to me. Always a great start to every story. I'm just like, if someone starts telling you God is talking to you, walk away slowly. Never speak to them again. Never. That's the lesson here that we have learned. So he was also told that he was chosen to father a child with Lois. Remember, she's 70. Yeah.

So she's like delighted by this. Like she's pumped that Vernon is saying this. And so she's like, yep, actually guys, he's our next leader. It's not me. He's actually the prophet.

Oh my God. I wish someone would take it to her side and been like, babe, I think he's using you. Yeah. So there is this time when you stop getting your period and no matter what, it's impossible. It's impossible. But she was so pumped that this 22 year old was paying attention to her. So she,

Translators. Also, if I was the followers, I'd be like, so all of a sudden you're just not our leader anymore. Digmatized, as some might say. Hey, I'd be pumped too. Yeah, me too. You know, I'm sure she's a horrible person, but I'm like, go get yours. I get it. I get it. So in 19, okay, so this started to become like kind of a controversy in the group because

Lois had a son named George Rodden, and he was like, what the fuck? I was supposed to be the next prophet. So this is probably one of the worst cases of hating your mom's boyfriend. He's like, God damn it. I have an husband.

It's me. I'm the prophet. So in 1984, Vernon announced that. So Vernon and George will see tension because George wants to be prophet and Vernon's prophet. Classic prophet issues. Classic prophet issues every time. So in 1984, Vernon announced that God had actually instructed him to marry a 14 year old girl named Rachel Jones.

Deep sigh. Rachel's parents were longtime Branch Davidian members. He was 26. So they were like, this is the best news ever. The prophet wants to marry our 14-year-old daughter. So they let it happen. Mm.

Also, at the time, Texas legal age to marry was 14 years old. In the 80s? In the 80s. Texas, get your shit together. What? Yep. What was legal drinking age in Texas in the 80s? I think it's 21. Guys, it's now 17, I looked up. Can we just vote to have Texas just drift away? Just slowly? Austin, we'll take you. Austin, come to us. Or we'll come to you. We'll come to you.

Whatever works. Everything else. It just needs to. Time to go bye-bye. Time to go bye-bye. So technically it was not illegal. Does that mean that it's right? No. Ew. Yep. So obviously Lois is devastated. She's just like in a rocking chair like, it was me. Yeah.

So, and George probably now is like, see, mom, I told you he was using you. Oh, I know. So George was like, I've got to get him out of here. After months of clashing, George forced Vernon out at gunpoint out of Mount Carmel. A few members went to stay with Vernon.

They go to Palestine, Texas. He has 25 followers with him at this time. He's traveling around the world to recruit people to establish a source of income. The group began acquiring firearms and then selling them at a higher price point at gun shows.

These don't seem like anyone I'd want to ever hang out with. At all. Can't find one thing in common. No. And apparently at this point, what they are doing was legal and they would make a lot of money off of it because it's Texas. I'm sure it was legal. Yeah. What wasn't like... Well, still, what's not legal now with Texas gun laws? Sure. It works. There it is.

And there it is. Wrong button, guys. I apologize. Which is also weird because apparently they're supposed to have like kind of pacifist ideals. So they're supposed to be chill, but they're like hoarding up some guns. Don't most cults say that? That they're like everything we do, but then it's so hypocritical. It's like just when it comes to us, but everyone else will fuck up. Well. Well. Religion. Sips drink slowly. Yeah.

Yep, that's right. So he also starts teaching his own version of Doomsday. He said the Davidians will engage in a great war with their enemies, one that would bring about the second coming of Christ. He also really starts saying that the enemy that they're going to go against is the American government. And we're going to go against, we're going to go into that more. I mean, right now I'm like, do I love them?

Like, they're sure not fighting for us. Libertarians? Oh, my God. All of a sudden. By the end of this episode. Just kidding, guys. We're just kidding. No, no, no, no, no. So, okay. In 1987, things aren't going so great back with the Branch Davidians in Waco. Lois died. George was proving to be an ineffective people. So people were like, bring Vernon back.

So George was like, fine. Y'all think he's so great. I'm declaring a standoff with Vernon. Whoever can resurrect a body is the leader of this church. No. I'm like, I was like, George, do you really think you can do that? Yeah. Like there's other ways to go about this. Under promise, over deliver. Like do not. Wow. Wow.

Don't start there. No. So apparently Vernon was like, yeah, I'll do it. But then ended up contacting authorities and was like, hey, this guy's digging up graves. So you need to look into him. Ooh. He's a little snitch. Sounds like a little tattletale. Everyone hates a tattletale. Everyone hates snitches get stitches, y'all. So the authorities were like, listen, if you can't give us evidence that he's digging up graves, then we can't really do anything about it.

So Vernon was like, well, I'm going to go get evidence. He broke into Mount Carmel with seven of his most loyal followers and a gunfight ensued. So George hid behind a tree and suffered multiple wounds because he was shooting at Vernon. Vernon was shooting back at him all to be like, we have to see if you actually have this dead body. And like, you know, old scars coming up. Right. I guess George's followers saw him hiding behind the tree and were like, you're a coward.

They're like, we're not impressed. Yeah, literally. George is like, I'm giving everything I can right now, guys. So the sheriff finally shows up. Vernon and his followers went on trial for attempted murder. They were acquitted and a mistrial was declared in Vernon's case. Vernon told the jury that him and his men went to Mount Carmel to find evidence of a corpse abused by Rodin. And then their shots were aimed at a tree, not at Rodin. Sure, Jan. And the jury's like, yeah, we believe that. Yeah.

Like, whatever. I actually just wanted to get this over with. Yeah, I'm like, I hit jury duty. Yeah. Okay, so George is like kind of still the leader. However, the final nail in the coffin for George was in 1989 when George murdered one of the followers, Dale Adair, with an ax to the face after Dale said that he believed that Vernon was actually the Messiah. Yeah. What a...

way to go. Horrible way to go. Not even like your skull, like across your face. Across your face. You're just going to bleed out. Slowly. So Vernon was arrested, convicted of murder and confined to a psychiatric hospital afterwards. Well, yeah. I would say. Seems like maybe a good place for him to take a beat. Right. So Vernon's like, I'm back. I'm in control. I'm back, bitches. Yeah.

Hi, Jill Zarin coming in. Hi, surprise. Surprise, that's what it is. And it's Vernon walking back into Mount Carmel. So 1989, he's finally the leader. He changes his name to David Koresh.

And that is how we know him throughout the rest of the story. Why? So he pleads himself to be a modern day Cyrus, who Cyrus in the Bible delivered the Jews from Babylon. And Koresh is the Hebrew word for Cyrus. So, and David comes from the King David. So David Koresh. Sure, sure, sure, sure. And so everyone, you know, it's like P. Diddy, Puff Daddy, Diddy. I'm sure it goes on and on. Kanye Yee. Wow.

Just like that. We're all just changing our names. So I will refer to Vernon Howell as David Koresh from now on. He does this legally. And then in the legal documents, he said he was changing his name for publicity and business purposes. It's like, honestly, guys, like, do you see he's doing exactly what it is for publicity and business purposes. Right. So now David Koresh goes into full me. I am the Messiah mode.

Here we go. Here we go. He claimed that he had decoded the seven seals. Again, what we saw earlier from the book of Revelations. And he prophesied the world was coming to an end and that only he and his followers would survive.

And that's always convenient to be like, if you follow what I say, you will survive. Yeah, it's so manipulative. It is. And he does the classic isolating the members thing from the outside world. He was like, separate yourself from worldly things. Don't interact with them, which, you know, also stripes people's individualism and identity. Yeah.

Okay. So they're back at Mount Carmel or Mount Carmel. I guess it, do you say Carmel or do you say, or do you say Carmel or Carmel? I say Carmel. Me too. Okay, great. So it's Mount Carmel. Yeah. I run from the East Coast.

Get out. Just kidding. We love you guys. That is technically the right way to pronounce it. I would assume. I'm going to open up another one of these. Do it, honey. We have a long day ahead. We sure do. And here we go. So the compound is on 77 acres in Waco. There's a gymnasium, a chapel, a sheltered, a buried school bus where they could go in case of emergencies. So that's like their bunker. Always good to have. Always good to have. There was no running water.

And there was Bible study three times a day, at least. I can't imagine anything worse.

Three times a day. I feel like we've got it with one. That's like even people, I've known families that go to church like three times a week. Yeah, like Sunday, Wednesday, and like another group. Yeah, isn't that crazy? Hey, I guess whatever you need to do to keep you centered. That's true. Not being judgmental, but it is fascinating to me. Fascinating. I just would be like, but I have so many episodes of Bravo to watch. My church. I just don't want to go to any class three days a week. That's how I feel. I'm like smothered by it. My church. Yes.

Gorgeous. Bravo. Gorgeous. Gorgeous. So now here's also something that David decided, David Koresh decided. When couples came into Mount Carmel, they had to take a vow of celibacy.

The only man allowed to have sex? Who do you think it was? Little Vernon David asshole. Yeah, Vernon David asshole. Convenience. He starts separating married couples in the groups who had to agree that he could only have sexual relations with the wives while the men should observe celibacy.

And the reason why for this is that the scripture that they followed, and remember, they followed it literally, said that in the end times, the Messiah will father 24 children. And those 24 children will be the elders that serve over the world that Jesus ruled over. So he said he was God and he was carrying the seed. He would say things like,

Sex is succumbing to the worldly desires. So I will be the one to carry the burden of sex for everyone. It's so stupid.

It's just crazy that people are like, yeah, it makes sense. Yeah, like, sure. Literally, you would come in with your wife and then all of a sudden he'd be like, I'm actually taking her for my wife. You're welcome. Once again, just violence, sexual violence against women. Against women. Because God tells them to do it. It's so convenient to be like, well, God said I could. That's like handmaid's tale shit. It is. It is. Like literally. Yeah, exactly. So. This was in the 80s, everyone. This was in the 90s now. Even. Even worse. Yeah.

So, okay. So in the compound, the women's quarters were upstairs and the men's quarters were downstairs. Everyone was in bunk beds, except for David had his own room in the top floor with the women's quarters. He's like, I have a king size bed. I think I spit all the way over to you. I didn't even see it. Yeah. Bunk beds and Bible study three times a day and no running water. Get me. No, thank you. Get me out. Get me out.

Get me out. No, thank you. My showers. That's right. Yeah, good question. How do you clean yourself? Dumping water, baths, baths, I guess. I don't know. Some dirty baths. Dirty, dirty baths. So he starts taking up brides and they're of all ages, including as young as 12. He was his first wife, Rachel's younger sister, Michelle. 12 is not legal in Texas and polygamy is not legal in Texas. Okay.

Michelle, we're starting to break shmallage. He impregnates Michelle. Oh, yeah. At 12? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, because God told him to. It's really disgusting. Also, with the Branch Davidians, which I was shook watching the documentary, because we'll see videos of them later, it looks like a diversity, like, special. It looks like it's intended to be that way. It's crazy.

It's like people, all types of people from all walks of life. Wow. It's insane. It's like the new like advertisements for Barbie. Literally. That's what it looks like. One girl's in a wheelchair. Every girl is. Everything. Everything you could imagine. Wow. I know. Cause I feel like I'm trying, you know, when you paint a picture in your head and you're like, oh wait, what? Interesting. Okay. So, and.

Okay. But in the years following the massacre, a number of additional children who had grown up amongst the Branch Davidians community reported that Koresh had molested them as well. Which, of course, if he's taking up 12-year-old brides, and then other Branch Davidians will be like, that never happened, but I believe the victim, so. Yeah.

Like, yes. Of course. Yeah. There are accounts of David Koresh physically abusing the young Branch Davidian members. That's also another thing. It's like discipline, discipline, discipline on the children. Yeah. Which if you guys have watched The Way Down, I've been watching so many religious cult things lately. Yeah, you and Allison are on one right now. I'm like, you guys good?

I'm not okay. I need to stop. But that's another thing. It's like when you start young with the kids and disciplining them so hard, then they're going to follow you through life. Yeah, you got to get them from the moment that they start understanding. And that's what's so scary. There's also accounts of him spanking adult members. It's like shocking. I want to know what this man looks like.

Well, you saw that Taylor... What's his name? Kish. Kish, yeah, was playing him. He literally has like big glasses, brown mullet, curly, white dude. Always these creepy white guys. Always, always.

It's always them. It's always white men that are doing everything evil in this world. We need to evaluate a lot of things, but we already need that. So Koresh also started telling people that God had told him to start building an army for God to prepare for the end of days and a salvation for his followers. He was collecting a lot of weapons and training everyone for doomsday, even the kids. And he was teaching that it was going to be the government who was their enemy.

That's where it gets really, I mean, the pedophilia is horrifying and scary in a violent way with like training an army. Yeah. For doomsday. What kind of what? Like, do they get bombs? Well, they had a lot of different guns. Guns. Yeah. But who knows? Yeah.

So also this is the time of Ruby Ridge. Have you ever heard of Ruby Ridge? No. I hadn't really either. So it's an event that happened in August of 1992 where the FBI had an 11-day standoff with a self-proclaimed

proclaimed white separatist Randy Weaver and his family in a cabin in Ruby Ridge, Idaho. So to sum up what happened, Randy Weaver attended several meetings of Aryan nations and white supremacist groups and sold illegal weapons to an undercover agent of the ATF. And the ATF is like, if you get intel for us, we will not, like you can work with us or we're going to arrest you. He didn't want to do that. He didn't show up for trial. So they ended up,

having a standoff at his cabin with the ATF and FBI. And the FBI ended up killing his wife and son. And then they pinned it on the ATF. So his wife and son, like, were not actively doing it. His son was a kid and they killed him. So people see this and are starting to be like, fuck the government. Right. Which... Do you know, like... I'm sorry. No, no, go, go. Do you know, like, the rules of a standoff? Like...

Because obviously that's because the FBI doesn't just want to like kill. Right. Innocent people. But at what point, like... I don't know. I don't feel like a kid should have to die though. No, no, no. I don't think so either. I'm just like standoffs are always fascinating to me because I'm like, what are like the rules that they are trained to do of like, is there a certain time? I don't know that. And that's like something that I see with this that I'm like...

This party is absolutely in the wrong. But also that this party shouldn't be doing that. Right. It's so, so people see this and they're like, fuck the government. An innocent woman and an innocent child died from that. So we're starting to see anti-government movements popping up. And we're also seeing the ATF, which is the Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Division, which like what a grouping. Whoa. Yeah.

Coming in hot. Like why throw firearms into the alcohol and tobacco? Because it's like all the bad things in the world. Whatever. Right. Is it like they're advocating for people not to? I guess. I don't know. Or to. Good question. So they, they're also like at around this time, like we need something to show the world that we can redeem ourselves. So they're looking for something to look, make them look like a shining knight. Right. Yeah.

Which I also don't like when someone's like, we're going to be actively looking for something to make us look good. Yeah, not really how it fucking works. Yeah, exactly. So local. Okay. So, okay. Here we go. Mm-hmm. Okay. Okay.

So now let's go back to Waco. In the spring of 1992, a package of grenade casings, so grenades are not guns and that is scary, broke open in the back of a UPS truck. After seeing the package was supposed to go to Mount Carmel, the UPS driver called the sheriff's department and

And the sheriff's department had already had people calling in about Mount Carmel reporting explosions and automatic gun rifles on the lands, like hearing that.

So they're like, oh, Schnell. Oh, Schnell. Now there is a grenade casing. Let's give it up for the UPS drivers. Truly, they're always Silk Road. Silk Road. Wow. Always promoting. They are the unsung heroes. Like literally. Wow. Give it up. Okay. So accusations of child abuse had also been starting to pop up at the time of the Wake

Evidence to support any sexual allegations against Koresh was found inconclusive. However, the accusations are there as well as polygamy. So the government's prime interest in the Branch Davidians, according to later documents, was the alleged possessions of potential illegal arms, though. So the sheriff's department contacts the ATF.

and are like, hey, there's some gun shit going on over here. So they also found that at this time around like 80 Branch Davidians lived at Mount Carmel, many of them children. So they asked the ATF for help. The ATF is like, this is our chance to redeem ourselves. This is the perfect opportunity to make us look like the heroes again. So they began surveillance from a house across the road from the compound several months before the siege.

Their cover was that they were college students. However, these men were in their 40s. They had new cars that were not registered at local schools, and they did not keep a schedule that would fit with any legitimate employee or classes. So it's not like...

Then a 40 year old being like, yeah, we're just going to like Baylor down the road. God. Yeah. So already not great, but they did obtain a search warrant on suspicion that the Davidians were modifying guns to have illegal automatic rifle capability. And apparently they weren't paying taxes on their firearms. Of course not. No. Yeah. That sounds about right. Yeah. Right. Okay. So any, any advantage of surprise? So the ATF is like, we're going to go in and get this dude. Yeah.

But here's the thing. We have to remember that like David Koresh was preparing them with a war for the government. So this is also already scary because they're like, we're going to go in and get him. Right. So they they needed an element of surprise on this on going to get it, because otherwise they would be like, they're coming for us. This is the end of days. Let's go.

So any advantage of surprise was lost when a TV reporter who had been tipped off about the raid asked for directions from a U.S. Postal Service mail carrier who was coincidentally Koresh's brother-in-law.

So Koresh, so basically the guy was like, what are you looking for at Mount Carmel or Mount Carmel to the TV guy? And he's like, there's going to be a raid and I'm going to be there. And he's like, fuck, fuck, fuck. That's my family. Rushes home and tells them they're coming for us.

Yeah. So Koresh then told the undercover ATF agent, Robert Rodriguez, who was at the house surveilling. And he went in and like saw what they were doing and acted like he was like a new follower. He told them he was basically like, I know that the raid is coming and I know who you actually are. And Robert Rodriguez says that when he left, they were praying and not getting ready. Right.

That's the ATF agent. So I don't know. That's what he says. That will be our sound for all of this. Okay. So Robert goes to the ATF. He's like, you have got to call it off. This is going to be a bloodbath because they're going to prepare for war now that they know that you guys are coming. Do not send your agents in there. It's going to be so dangerous for everybody, but they couldn't do it. They said there was too much money already. Um,

like dealing with all of this and it was in motion. On February 28th, 1993, authorities surrounded the Mount Carmel compound. They wanted to prevent what they feared might be an end of day massacre. What they call Operation Trojan Horse began early in the morning. They thought this was supposed to last 20 minutes. It lasted 51 days. I,

I just like don't understand. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy what David Koresh has because it's like if you're doing illegal shit, yeah, the government's going to come for you. Right. And it's very convenient to be like, we're going to have an army against us. It's the U.S. government. Yeah, that's their problem. Right. So...

Yeah. And like he was building his army and to fight was to usher in the kingdom of God. These people believe the apocalypse was going to come when the American government starts it. It played right into their apocalyptic vision. So allegedly the ATF intended on knocking on the compound door and be like, we have a warrant for your arrest. Right. Famous last words. Famous last words. That would be the normal thing to do, especially if it was an element of surprise because then they're not preparing for you.

So there's helicopters and they're all starting to go to the compounds, all the ATF agents. Allegedly, David ran out the front door and was like, stop, please. There are women and children in here. An ATF agent said he started running towards David and said, police search warrant. But then gunfire erupted. David ran in and shut the door.

Still today, no one knows who fired the first shot. But one of the ATF agents later came out and said,

that like in his testimony that it was another ATF agent shot one of the Branch Davidians dogs and no one knew that what was going on. And so they just thought that the Branch Davidians were starting to shoot at them. And so the ATF just started firing off rounds. I know. Lead the dogs out of it. Like literally they're the most innocent creatures. And like they probably didn't even want to be with the Branch Davidians, but they were like, we're getting fed. Exactly. But they're not good. Yeah.

It's not great, but listen. So David runs in the door and David gets shot.

And once that happens, the Branch Davidians start retaliating. All hell breaks loose. All hell breaks loose. Gun battle is raging. And when I see, when I was watching it on this scripted TV show, it like really put in perspective to me how terrifying it was. It was literally like a battle of just automatic rifles from both sides just going off. And there were,

there are women and kids in this building, which is really scary. Yeah. They're like, we didn't fucking ask for this. I know. But it's also like frustrating. It's like, why is your child in this position? Literally. And the dogs. And the dogs. The kids and the dogs. I can't stop thinking about it. So, um,

Wayne Martin, who's one of the branch of Vidians, pretty immediately calls 911 and begs them to call it off. He's like, there are women and children in here. And it's so frustrating because on the sound or on the audio recording, both sides are like, well, if you cease fire right now, and then they're like, we're getting shot out. We're not going to cease fire. You cease fire. And so fucking frustrating. Yeah.

So he so finally they get David on the phone. They're still David shot, but they're still firing going on. They finally get him on the phone and they're trying to talk him down. But all David wants to talk about is religion. And when he gets on the phone, he goes, literally, he goes, this is David Koresh, the notorious.

Sweetheart, don't flatter yourself. Shut the fuck up, David. It's not cute. It's not cute at all. He starts getting into the seven seals and they're like, okay, focus. I love the seven seals.

I don't want to hear a thing about them. So the agents, so the sheriff of the town is actually, he was kind of the middleman between the ATF and the Branch Davidian. They finally get a ceasefire. The ATF really wanted a ceasefire because they were running out of ammunition while the Branch Davidian had ammunition for days because they had just been collecting this.

Crazy. So, um, in total for ATF agents and six branch Davidians died during the fight. A woman who was in Mount Carmel was shot in the finger and the arm while she was breastfeeding. David Kress was shot in his hip and wrist. Um,

David thought he was dying and there's a recording where he makes a call to his mom basically being like, I'm dying, but I'll be back real soon. I'm sorry you didn't learn the seals, but I'll be merciful, okay? Like, shut up. Oh my God. Enough with these seals. If I hear this one more time. Drinking game every time you hear the seven seals. It's like, the seven seals are not going to happen. Give it up. It's like fetch. I'd be wasted. Wasted. So the first show, the first day is just a shit show, clearly. Yeah.

And everyone's heightened. Both sides want revenge now because they're like, you took our people.

Which also it's like, I do think like ATF, you knew that they knew you were coming. Like on the ABC documentary, there were people who were being like, we should not have sent our men in that day because we killed them basically. Yeah. I mean, it's just like any war, like any two sides that are using violence. It's like, there's not a good answer. No, a hundred percent. So now the ATF call, also this did not help the ATF case at all when they were trying to save face. Yeah, I bet not. Never does. So the ATF now calls in the FBI and,

As Kris Jenner said, this is a case for the FBI. This is a case for the FBI. Okay, so by 5 p.m. on March 1st, 1993, a full day after this began, the FBI took complete control of the operation. They set up on land, selected Brian Sage as their chief negotiator. Can you imagine being a negotiator?

That's a job for a Libra. What? A hundred percent. Oh my God. I feel like Kanawha could be a negotiator. That's what I'm saying. It's like being like, I don't like, I want to see both sides of the conflict and help you out in this. You have to be like so smart and patient, but also like kind of manipulative. I think that you have to be a Libra. I think that's part of the requirements. I'm not saying that you're manipulative, Kanawha. I'm saying that like the intelligence to be able to be like, wow.

Wow. What makes someone want to do that? I could see why someone would want to do it. But after twice, I would just be exhausted. I couldn't do it. Wow. So the FBI hostage rescue team also surrounds the compound as well as the news media. There are 46 children still in the compound. And they said that was priority number one. No kids died during the shootout. But the dog did. But the dog did. God. What's worse? No, just kidding. Just kidding.

I'm just kidding. That is a horrible thing. I get you. But I'm still upset. Iconic to us. So at first, the Davidians had telephone contact with the local news media. And Koresh was like giving phone interviews to them, which is like, oh, my God. He's like, is pop sugar on the line? To moi? I'd like to give a blind item.

And a lot of people were asking, and this is something that I was wondering, why didn't they just arrest David Koresh when he was out and about in town? Are there like rules against like... There's not rules. They said they were told that David Koresh never left Mount Carmel. They have interviewed...

so many people in town and they're like he came to our restaurant once a week he was in Walmart like he was he was jogging the FBI didn't do anything well the FBI wasn't involved at first it was the ATF and I think the ATF wanted to save face and so they were like we're gonna do this amazing raid it's gonna be super successful they were like performative exactly and then it turned into a shit show because they could have got him and not had to put all these women and children in danger

And I'm not saying, I'm not advocating for the Branch Davidians at all. I'm just saying it didn't have to be like this. Right, right. So the FBI, after, you know, David Koresh was talking to PopSugar, cut off communication from the outside world.

And for the next 51 days, the only communication was inside by telephone with a group of 25 FBI negotiators and the Branch Davidians. Damn. But they couldn't really execute a plan safely without knowing Koresh's mental stability. Like, did they... They needed to know, did he really believe he was the Messiah or was he just like a con artist? Because you have to approach that in different ways. If someone really believes they're God... Like psychologically? 100%. But like...

Aren't they all kind of con artists? I mean, they definitely are. Like, can you 100% believe that to be true? But they'll never say that they wouldn't. And I do think it's different. Like, I think there's a little bit of a difference because then it's like totally mentally unstable. No, that's true. And that is like, there are people that...

I don't know, like these kind of cult leaders. I'm like their whole essence is to gaslight. Yes. And I'm sure they have training on that in negotiator school. Right. They must. You kind of have to do the same thing. Right. So they had to take him at face value and they had to treat him as if he really believed he was the Messiah. Because also I feel like you have to play into that a little bit too. I'm like, do I want to be a negotiator? It was first a construction worker and now I'm like, how fun. FBI negotiator. Yeah. Right? Crazy. What a challenge. Yeah.

So his negotiations, Brian Sage's negotiation, Brian Sage is played by Michael Shannon on Waco. Say it. Say how you feel. Sexual. Sexual. Ooh, Michael Shannon. Something about it. Something about that, man. I asked Canola the other day. I was like...

Women think that this man is sexual. Like, do you see it? And he was like, yeah. Oh my God. There's something about him. Yeah. Like, I think he's not like conventionally attractive. I agree. But you want to like do some dirty things to this man. You sure do. Especially when you see him in this show being a negotiator. Schwao. Everyone check out Waco. Schwao. Schwao. We will be watching. I want to. Yeah.

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Rammies, I'm going to let you in on a little secret, and I'm going to say something that you probably have never heard a soon-to-be bride say, and that is that I love wedding planning. I have had such an amazing, fun, light experience doing it with my fiance, and that is a huge thanks to Zola.

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everything you need to make this process super easy and fun. And this should just be a pleasurable experience that you get to share with someone you love. And I'm really appreciative that Zola has just let us do that. There's even a five-star app that helps you plan on the go on your couch. So if you and your future husband or wife are watching a movie, having a glass of wine, plan your way

Plan your wedding from the couch. Do it wherever you want because this is all about you. So here's what you're going to do. You're going to start planning at Zola.com. That's Z-O-L-A.com. You can thank me later. So he began with a compromise. Koresh agreed to let two children out every time a two-minute sermon played on the radio. They agreed and recorded Koresh and played his mini message on a loop.

So every time his two minute sermon was played, he would let two kids out of the compound because that's what they were really like. Our priority now are the children and making sure they are safe. And he was fine to do that. I think at first he was like, no. And then they're like, but we'll play your message. And he was like, well, maybe, which I'm also like, okay, so you don't give a fuck about those kids.

You know? Right. So by the end of the second day, the FBI extracted over a dozen kids from Mount Carmel. Also remember, their parents are inside and they're letting them go. By themselves. And they're being separated. And the parent, like these people are interviewed later and they were like, I knew I was doing what was best for God. And so I knew I had to stay here though. Yeah.

Yeah. So they took that over their children? Yeah. Because they see it as salvation. They see that as the greater good for their kids. That's a part of negotiating school, something that you can't even imagine. I can't understand it. I can't, right? Yeah. So then the FBI was like, okay, we're crushing this. We'll give you a nationwide audience if you release the entire compound at once.

Smart. Turned on by negotiators. Right? Just like stroking this man's ego. Koresh is like, fuck yeah, let's do it. On March 2nd, Koresh recorded an hour long sermon.

So the plan was for the Christian Broadcasting Network, which we've talked about on Tammy Faye Baker. No, thank you. Tammy Faye Jim Baker, check it out. Unsubscribe. Immediately. Was to air the recording later that day. Once that happened, Koresh would lead his followers to the outside. On the third afternoon, the Davidians were packed and ready to go because they were like, all right, David told us that we're going to leave now, actually. So we'll leave. Yeah.

They aired the sermon like they agreed. But nighttime came and no Davidians were out the door. He did not hold up his end of the bargain. Koresh then told negotiators that God had told him to remain in the building and wait. I want to scream. Scream! I literally, why does God get to be the fucking finalist little clown? It's not fair because you can't argue with that.

The way that Brian Sage must have felt after that, I can't imagine. I'm going to walk out of this room. I'm going to walk out. No kidding. Same. I'd be like, well, all right, fuck that. I'm done. So, ooh, that pissed off the FBI. I'd be like. They played us like a fiddle. So on March 9th, they came onto the property with tanks and turned off the compound's electricity. They were like, you're going to mess with us. We're going to mess with you. Yeah. Yeah.

And so they turned off the electricity, forcing those inside to survive on rainwater and stockpiled military MRE. My mic is just like womp womp. It's slowly just falling. I can't take it anymore. Do you want to readjust it if you put it back? Yeah, probably. Because I think I kept getting it closer. Nice, nice. Okay.

They forcing those inside to survive on rainwater and stockpile military MRE rations, which are those like weird. It like looks like airplane food almost. And you put water in and you make it. Were they like handing those out? No, the branch of Indians have been collecting this because they were preparing for just this. Really? Yeah.

So they had two of these rations a day and eight ounces of water per person a day. That's it. Don't tell me these things, Claire. The hunger fear. You know what it does to me? It's starting to give me Donner Party vibe. No kidding. And what I just think about out of all of this are those poor kids. Literally, who are like... They are brainwashed. Yes, this is their reality. And now they have to survive off of eight ounces of water?

Okay. So they... Koresh responded by cutting off all communication with the FBI until the power was restored. How were they... How do you communicate before this? Is it like... They had a phone that went directly to them, I guess. That's how it usually happens? I guess. I don't know. I'm not an expert in FBI. I know. I'm like history of... FBI? FBI? That would be interesting. A lot. And all the things that they do. Yeah. Okay. So...

Eventually, they're like, okay, we need to communicate with him. We'll turn his power back on. And the negotiators sent Koresh a video camera so he could film himself. They figured by indulging his ego, they could get to know him better and possibly take stock of the kids and be like, we don't even know what these kids like what state they're in. We need to make sure they're okay, too.

So they send him a video camera. How do they even send it? How do you do that? That's a great question. I don't know that. Like roll it on something? Have you seen those carts in Santa Monica that are robot delivery carts? Something like that or like a little like pulley. It has to be something. Yeah, because you can't get close. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Especially with this crew that has all those weapons. Fucking yeah. So-

They film a video and it comes back. Koresh is sitting there. He introduces his children and wives to the FBI negotiator, including several minors who claim to have had babies, have had babies fathered by Koresh.

Koresh had fathered perhaps 14 of the children who stayed with him in the compounds. So a lot of these children there, like, already mothers? They're, like, breastfeeding? I think there was, like, 14-year-olds who were. But, like... Yeah. Yeah, and the videos, they're mainly showing, like, 6-year-olds, 4-year-olds, and they look scared by him. I mean, they just... It makes...

my interaction watching the videos and we'll post them on our story this week is that they kind of look at him kind of just like, eh. It's like Stockholm.

Stockholm syndrome. They're like, I think he's good, but he's like molesting. Well, also, he's just like an adult. And I think he disciplined them really hard, too. So they're just going to do whatever they say. But apparently the kids looked like fine and healthy and clean, which they were not expecting because the FBI was going to use that against him later. And they're like, well, fuck, the kids actually look OK. They look OK. Yeah, but they're I mean, obviously they're not OK. And they had several deaths.

Branch Davidians made statements in the video that everyone was staying inside on their own free will. They'd be like, are you here on your free will? And they're like, yes, of course. God wants me to be here. It's so frustrating, which it's like, obviously, which was true. He told them that they could leave if they wanted, but then he would say it will just come at the cost of eternal salvation.

So it's like that is some, these people aren't staying in on their own free will. They're staying in with fear. Tess, I would like to do a reading of a negotiation between the FBI and David Koresh at this point. Oh my God. Who do I play? Do you want to play David Koresh or do you want to play the FBI? You tell me, baby. Well.

Well, are you feeling more culty or governmenty? I don't think governmenty. Okay. I'm really feeling FBI right now. Yeah, I think you are. Okay. So I will be David Koresh. There is so many transcripts of so many different things. So I just picked out- Oh my God, my palms are sweating. Kind of wanted to show that he thinks that he's letting people go and that they really can't. Okay. So I will be playing David Koresh. Tess will be playing FBI. Mama. Red leather, yellow leather. All right. David Koresh.

It's wrong. You're doing wrong before God, before man. You're doing wrong. You're adding to your wrong. David, you're the one that's doing wrong. No, no, no, no, no.

They're saying because of these things, they want to stay the more.

And I guess that you have no control over anybody. You've got to understand what I have control. This is your responsibility. This is your responsibility because you're the leader. Their safety is in your hands. These people look. And then the tape cuts off. Crazy, right? So like, I think they were getting frustrated at the end and being like, just send them out. He is such a liar being, he really would be like, yeah, leave if you want to burn in hell.

So it's not telling them that they could leave. It's like, how do you argue with religion? It's like right now. Right now. Like with the abortion stuff. It's like, how do you tell someone facts? Right. And just reality. Right. And tell someone to believe a certain way. It's just impossible. But it's the only excuse. It's like the draft. Listen to our Lambie episode about the draft. People just said, well, I'm religious, so I can't. God tells me. I don't want to go. That's not really fair. Yeah.

So also what we're starting to see though, Tess, within the FBI, we're starting to see them fighting within themselves, half fighting on the negotiation side and half fighting on the tactical side because the negotiation side is like,

You guys keep sending in these tanks and shit and you're scaring the shit out of them and shooting and stuff. They're not going to do anything we want. And they were like just starting to destroy their property. The negotiations are like, you're making us look like fools. And the tactical guys are like, we can't just sit here and talk to these people anymore. We need to use force. What do you think? What would you do? I mean...

Try negotiation at least first. Like, let's not resort to killing people. How many days had it been? At this point, we're probably in like...

A week? No, we're like in March now. Oh. So we're like within a few weeks, I would say. Right. Which again, like then you're kind of like, well, how much can you really do? What I would have been like is like, this is what you get for not just arresting him on the street. Like now we are confined. You made your bed? Yeah, exactly. And they are laying in it. Well, I'm sure the FBI is pissed because they're like, ATF, what the fuck are you doing? You're drunk. Go home. Yeah, truly. So...

They start. Oh, also, apparently, like the guys on tanks would taunt the Davidians by mooning them and flipping them off like they would get up really close. And so it's just like bros in the military. Bros being bros. Exactly. Which is obviously going to piss off the Davidians more. It's not productive. Yeah.

So, but increasingly aggressive techniques were used to try to force the Branch Davidians out. For instance, sleep deprivation. They would aim spotlights at night into all of the windows. They blasted metal music, Buddhist chanting, and the screams of rabbits being slaughtered, like from their speakers, which is a form of torture that the military does do, right?

Just can you imagine metal music being blasted in your ear to try to get them come out? God, I keep going back and forth of like, is that ethical? I know. Versus like, but these people are like, this man is raping women. I know. Abusing children. I know. So it's like, yes, you have to do like... It's just sad when the children have to suffer through all of this. No, I know. It's like they're...

I know. I don't even know how to feel. Right? But they're doing that to be able to get the children out because they have no, like. But the children aren't going to run out. I know. It's so horrible. So in retaliation, David Koresh and the Davidians started blasting their own rock music with their speakers. And it was even louder and more disruptive than the FBI. They had speakers?

Yeah. Yeah. Because they had like a rock band in there. They started like playing Christian rock. I'm sure the FBI was like, call it off. They're like, honestly, we all quit. We don't want to listen to this shit. And so the speakers blew out on there and that's how that stopped. So days go on. Yeah. March 21st, the FBI brings in armed vehicles that were used to destroy the perimeter fencing and outbuildings and crush cars that belong to the Branch Dravidians. Oh.

During the siege, several scholars who study apocalypticism, which can you imagine studying that? What a dark thing to devote your life to. And religious groups attempted to persuade the FBI that the siege tactics being used by government agents would only reinforce the impression within the Branch Davidians that they were a part of a biblical end of times. Okay.

confrontation that had cosmic significance. This would likely increase the chances of a violent and deadly outcome. The religious scholars pointed out that the beliefs of the group may have appeared to be extreme, but to the Branch Davidians, their religious beliefs were deeply meaningful and they were willing to die for them. So basically they're like every aggressive thing you do is playing into it more. It's like a catch 22 now. Yeah, it is.

What do you do? Literally, what do you do? And like at this point, it's gotten so bad. So the FBI had had enough. It was time for more aggressive tactics. There were 80 Davidians still in the compound. They would use tear gas to drive them out. So...

They had to go and get approval from the government. The government at first, this woman, what is her name? She was basically like, I don't, we don't have enough evidence on like what tear gas does to kids and like how like really productive it is. So no. And then the FBI was like, no, we've got to do it now. Cause then David was like, I'll come out, but I have to finish writing the seven seals. So I don't know when I'll get done. Drink, drink everyone. If you're listening, drink, drink.

So they were like, we have to do it now. She apparently like talked to Clinton about it. And he was like, if you think it's what's right, do it. Oh, Clinton approved? Yeah. Clinton, Clinton approved of this. So early the next morning on April 19th, 1993, armored combat, combat engineering vehicles, which is basically looks like tanks with super long, like arms went through and they use explosives to punch holes in the walls to the buildings, the compounds, they could pump in tear gas and,

and try to force the Branch Davidians out. They did warn them over speakers ahead of time that they were going to do this. They were like, we're putting tear gas in. Please don't shoot. This is just what we're doing. They told them everything. But the Branch Davidians said that they did have...

Oh, I was going to say. Oh. Because they were preparing for the end of times. Oh. I was going to say that the FBI should have given them. Or no. I'm like, give the kids. Well, the kids didn't have gas masks though, Tess. So the Branch Davidians had gas masks, but they didn't have child-sized gas masks. So they started wetting towels with water and putting it over the kids' faces. Oh, God.

Horrible. That's making me upset. Yeah. So they stated, they stated plan, the stated plan called for increasing amounts of gas to be pumped in over two days to increase the pressure. But that was before they heard automatic gunfire inside the compound and the FBI didn't know if they were firing at them. So the FBI released all of its tear gas within two hours that was supposed to be let out over two days.

Inside, the woman and children gathered in a bunker. Without warning, three raging fires erupted in the building until it completely engulfed Mount Carmel. Why wouldn't they just run out?

Because they believe this was, they said on the ABC documentary, they're like, we think that the Branch Davidians wanted to die because that would bring them salvation. Right. Okay. So they're all very sick people. Sick. Like if a mother is like with her child, like you need to stay in here for salvation. That is a sickness. Well, a hundred percent. And the FBI was like, why aren't they running out? No one is running out. Right.

These poor kids. So sad. Flames block the FBI from entering. The building is completely on fire. They're on the speakers being like, please come out now. Like the building is on fire. Protect the children. Eventually a few Branch Davidians emerged, but no kids came out at all. In total, nine escaped the compound, but no children.

disgusting parents. Disgusting. Disgusting. They still don't know. We still don't know how the fires in Mount Carmel started. And there's a lot of back and forth between if it was the government or if it was the Branch Davidians that started the fire. They actually...

The FBI at one point sent in milk cartons for them because they asked for milk for the kids and they bugged the milk. So they had been recording what was going on in the inside and their recordings that they found from the inside right before the fire that says, do you think I could light this soon? David said, pour it right, spread the fuel. The FBI used this as evidence that the Branch Davidians were responsible for the flames. Investigators also found fuel on the survivor's clothes and shoes.

However, the Davidians that made it out insisted they did not start a fire. They said a tank vehicle knocked over a lantern that started the fire, and videos show that the tanks hitting the wall and the fire started exactly 90 seconds after. The tear gas delivered by the tanks were also potentially flammable. What do you think? I think that it's pretty likely that the Branch Davidians set the building on fire.

I think that the tank probably could have knocked something over too. I'm sure it was a mixture of all of it. I think tear gas is flammable. And if you have fuel. Yeah. That's why I'm saying like, I think this episode is literally the best case, the best example of both of these things can be true. Right. It's like both people, I don't agree with either party and both just made it worse. I know. I'm like trying to believe in one because I think that makes you like be able to comprehend something more.

But it's very hard. Right. So the remaining Branch Davidians, including the children, were either buried alive by rubble, suffocated, or shot. Many were killed by smoke or carbon monoxide inhalation. According to the FBI, Steve Schneider, who is David Koresh's top aide, shot and killed David Koresh and then himself. And that happened to a lot of kids, that they shot the kids. And one kid was stabbed to death.

to prevent being burned alive. So in all 76 people died, many of which were found with self-inflicted wounds. Five of the survivors were eventually convicted of voluntary manslaughter of the ATF agent's death. There are tons of hearings and investigation after like, did the government totally fuck up? And was it the government's fault that this went so crazy and they should have taken better steps in the beginning?

Did they set it on fire? And also the ATF had a gag order. They couldn't even speak about what actually happened because they were like, we need you to keep quiet until we figure out what the best response was, which turned out to be detrimental because Timothy McVeigh was an eyewitness of the siege and was, do you know the name Timothy McVeigh?

Yeah. So this man, Timothy McVeigh, was an eyewitness of the siege and was so affected by what he saw at Waco that he became an anarchist. He ended up bombing a federal building in Oklahoma City as revenge. And that was the Oklahoma City bombing. Oh, my God. Yeah. Bill Clinton argued that the FBI bore no responsibility for the deaths at Waco, saying, I do not think the United States government is responsible for the fact that a bunch of religious fanatics decided to kill themselves. Yeah.

There's still Branch Davidians living and practicing in America. Some that were following David Koresh, they believe that this was all God's will. It just seems like a senseless, useless thing that shouldn't have had to happen. And I do, I blame both parties. And those people inside didn't have a chance because of their beliefs and because of the man who told them to believe it.

And that's Waco. Jesus. What a ride. It's such a conversation starter. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Yeah. I'm like, I don't even like know what to say because I don't want to like...

It's a lot to process, too. Yeah, I've never heard this story before. Because I've been processing it for like two weeks. Because I'm like, how can we let this man just marry and impregnate 12-year-old girls and collect weapons? That's freaking dangerous. But we also can't just come in and start shooting people up. Right. And it's like you have to think of the source of this, which is religion. Right. Yeah.

And of course you could argue, well, you know, like religion does a lot of good for people and it's not always like this. And there are people that don't just blindly follow it and it's not black and white, but like people use it as black and white. Yeah. People use religion and God speaking to them and being prophets and to be violent and destructive and... It was black and white to them. Terrorize people. Right. So it's like...

I blame religion. I truly, in this situation, I truly blame both sides. I don't think either party acted in the way that they were supposed to at all. Yeah. But at the end of the day, if they would have just come out...

This wouldn't have been a... This wouldn't... Like, those kids didn't have to die. No. So I fucking blame David Koresh, really, out of all of this. He is the person to blame. Oh, no. I blame him 100%. Like, then the religious aspect of it. Yes, exactly. He's affiliated with that. So I blame him. Yeah, we're saying the same thing. Yeah. Oh, and also David Koresh's mom was interviewed on the ABC thing, and she was like...

Yeah, that I believe this is God's will. And she said, if I didn't think that this was all for God's will, I don't think I could live with myself. And it's like, honey, that's denial. This is just like, I don't even know what to say. It like makes me upset. It's so upsetting. I can't believe this happened. But this is like just a small, small example. Yes. Of thousands of wars and everything that is like just about religion. Yes. And people thinking they're above the law. Yeah.

Because of God. Yeah. You're not. And I don't mean to shit on religion. Like, I know it has...

It gives people things and it is your choice and it is a community and it is a spiritual experience that I might not understand. But like, I just hear about these things and I think I'm just heated about it right now because of everything going on in the country. Of just using religion as an excuse for like women to be, you know, treated as unequal and everything that I'm just like, I'm just angry. Believe whatever you want. Don't put that on me.

Yeah. And don't put on these children. Exactly. People that are brainwashed and then they're going to be fucking murdered by the government. Well, that's also it's like it's this one is actually tricky, too, because it was like the whole point of this religious religious sect was for an end of day doomsday that they're preparing an army like that is dangerous. It's like, how do you let that just go on? You can't. Yeah. Yeah.

It's fucked up. I know. Damn. Would love to hear y'all's thoughts. Also watch the show Waco that was on Paramount. I think you can watch it on Amazon now. I know now I want to watch. It's crazy. Is it miniseries? Yeah. It's only like one season. I think it's interesting. There's some parts where I'm like, are you guys glorifying David Koresh in a way? I think that they're just trying to make it look like, I don't know. It's just hard. It is hard. Yeah.

Like he's the protagonist? I don't necessarily. There's like a few episodes where I'm like, I don't feel like you're making him look as bad as he actually was. But I haven't rewatched it in its entirety yet. It's fascinating. Wow. I'll watch Michael Shannon do anything. And Taylor Kitsch. Truly. Honey. Oh, Taylor Kitsch. Yeah. But tough to see. Tough to see who it is. It's like when someone like super, super hot plays a villain that you're just like, oh. Yikes. I know. And Julia Garner's in it too. Great actress. Great actress. Great actress.

So guys, that was Waco. You asked for it. I gave it. I didn't even know what to say. I never want to hear the seven seals over again. No, no, never. But wow, that was great, Claire. Thanks, Tess. Hey, be kind to yourself today and step away from people who call themselves God. Happy birthday, July. That's our country. XOXO. Right answers mostly.