Lord Haw-Haw: Germany Calling | How to Fight a Propaganda War | 4
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Wondery Plus subscribers can binge entire seasons of British Scandal early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. From Wondery, I'm Matt Ford. And I'm Alice Levine. And this is British Scandal. Sir Alice William Joyce, better known as Lord Haw Haw...

Do we think he was a successful propagandist? At one point, he had 9 million listeners. I'm not scoffing at that. That's a huge number, especially in a time when everyone gathered around the wireless. They are mega numbers even now. But I guess the key question was, was he effective? Was he actually changing how people thought and felt? Was he winning people over to the Nazi cause? Or were people just laughing at him? And

And does it matter if people were laughing at him? Was some of what he was saying, even if they were hate listening, to use a contemporary phrase, still seeping in? You know, was he an example of people watching Real Housewives in 2025, claiming not to like it, but actually it's all landing?

You know I watch it, and I would never claim not to like it. But it's a good point you make, because we've got information coming at us from all angles nowadays, not just on social media, but news channels and even family WhatsApps,

And sometimes it can feel impossible to figure out what's real and whether you're being manipulated or just entertained. Thankfully, our guest today can help us answer all these questions. Peter Pomerantsev is senior fellow at Johns Hopkins University, where he studies contemporary propaganda and how to defeat it. His latest book, How to Win an Information War, The Propagandist Who Outwitted Hitler, tells the story of how the British responded to Nazi propaganda during the Second World War. He joins us next.

Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery's American History Tellers. In our latest series, at the turn of the 20th century, rapid industrialization, urbanization, and political corruption were ravaging America. But soon, President Theodore Roosevelt and a diverse group of reformers known as progressives would fight back. Listen to American History Tellers on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Mr. Ballin, the host of Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries, and each week on my podcast, you can expect to hear stories about bizarre illnesses no one can explain, miraculous recoveries that shouldn't have happened, and cases so baffling they stumped even the best doctors. Listen to Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, Peter. You've spent years delving into disinformation and propaganda. What got you interested in this area?

So between 2001, 2010, I lived in Russia, just as the Putin regime was developing a very frightening and effective new kind of propaganda model. And so I kind of had a ringside seat at what we now see across the world, this sort of weird blend of reality show entertainment and authoritarianism. And I wrote my first book about it. And then I saw it happening across the world. And as I saw

These kind of pathologies spread throughout the world. I was fascinated by the historical context as well. And then in my last book, I ended up writing about the Second World War to kind of understand what's same and what's different. So when you say a new model, do you mean a new tone or is there a new structure to it?

That's a really good question. So tone is so important. It was definitely a new tone compared to the Soviet Union, which was very prim and serious and ideological. This was much more ironic and deeply cynical, and at the same time, very funny in its own kind of warped way.

But also in terms of the content. In the 20th century, propaganda tended to be based around an idea, communism or Nazism. While here, the ideas were all just toys that could be used and dropped at whim. And what mattered much more was the underlying psychology, which was conspiratorial, paranoid, supremacist, and ultimately completely disregarding of human life.

So in that historical context you mentioned then, what did you learn about the focus of our series, Lord Haw Haw? Yeah, so I was actually going back to, in my last book, How to Win an Information War, I looked at the British antidote to Lord Haw Haw, I suppose. A guy called Sefton Delmer, who was campaigning or led the British special operations to subvert Nazi propaganda.

But he'd kind of been brought into the British system, partly because the British were so worried about Lord Hawthorne. So Lord Hawthorne had actually two jobs. One of them is the more famous one, which is his own broadcasts. Yeah, when he would broadcast to the British and try to break British morale. But what I looked at was something else that he did. He ran something called the Bureau Concordia. So these were special radio stations which created false flag radios. They would pretend to be local British radios.

And they were meant for the listener to sound as if they were inside Britain, that these were local stations that were providing virulent criticism to Churchill and looking for peace with Hitler. The most famous one probably is one that was like a working class man's one.

And Haw Haw directed behind the scenes. He wrote the scripts and he did all that work. He couldn't be on the shows because he was too famous. So, you know, he found a bunch of POWs and they created a show where several sort of cockneys who pretended to be working in factories during the Blitz would complain to each other about how their bosses were letting the workers die in the factories while they all hid from the bombs.

There was another one aimed at Scottish nationalists, Radio Caledonia, basically saying the Scots don't need this war, this is England's war. And there's one for posh people, which is basically Aristo saying the Germans are our kind of ethnic kin, why are we fighting them? So HoHor was involved in that, reporting directly to Goebbels. Goebbels was very hands-on. How successful was German propaganda into Britain?

I mean, there was two big problems with their propaganda to Britain. Ho Ho himself was actually, as you know, incredibly popular and scaring the British government with his success. I can't remember offhand or what was it like a quarter of people were tuning into him at some point. But then his figures plummet when the blitz starts, when it's just not funny anymore. Having this kind of almost sort of,

sort of like, you know, I mean, Haw Haw's a bit like the Joker, this kind of clown sort of laughing at you. When bombs are falling, it was okay during the phony war, but not so much during the Blitz.

The stations of Bureau Concordia were also very popular. People at the Ministry of War, people at what would become the Political Warfare Executive were incredibly worried about these stations. They were worried because they weren't just stations. They seemed to be sort of like on the ground operations as well. So I don't know, the radio stations would go, you know, if you're part of our movement against the war in Britain, leave a certain type of sign in a postbox and those things would happen.

So they were worried that this was actually a growing movement within Britain. They weren't worried about rebellion in Britain, but they were like, OK, if Hitler is convinced enough that this is working, then he will actually be more gung-ho and invading. Again, once the blitz starts and there's just this huge turn against Britain, they become less successful. Because one thing that Haw Haw didn't manage to do was convince people that these were genuine British stations. It was pretty obvious pretty soon on that these were false flag stations.

Partly

because they weren't quite clever enough. They kept on leaning towards Horvath and Goebbels' personal ideological preferences. So they were too anti-Semitic. I mean, there were issues with anti-Semitism in Britain, but these stations were like full on like, Churchill is a secret Jew and he's driven us into this war. That stuff didn't sound organic. You know, nobody talked that way in Britain. You know, if you're ever going to do this sort of covert propaganda, you have to really inhabit the discourse that you're trying to infiltrate.

And this stuff is just a little bit too obviously Nazis cosplaying English cockneys. And did you have any sense of whether people were listening purely for entertainment just because of the nature of it? Was he genuinely winning hearts and minds?

Yeah, no, so I mean, with Ho-Ho, the sense was even at his peak, like a huge percentage of people were kind of listening to it, as one says, for the lulls these days, almost as a form of entertainment. But I would be careful with that, you know, you can listen to things as a form of entertainment, but it can still insidiously crawl in. You know, I look at propaganda across the world and sometimes being grotesque.

and almost seemingly self-sabotagingly weird, is actually also a way of lowering people's defences. At a certain level, Ho Ho was still showing that somebody with a posh British accent could be a Nazi.

And I think that still lowered the barriers to hostility. The real problem wasn't Haw Haw's approach, which we've seen today how many propagandists use buffoonish irony in a very aggressive way, including in Britain. But I think the real problem was the Blitz. Once people have bombs falling on them, they become resistant to that sort of really nasty, aggressive approach.

Even what you were just saying sounds so contemporary, though, doesn't it? The concept of a hate watch or a hate listen and getting into people's ears and eyeballs, even if it's not because initially they're on side, but there's some form of entertainment. There's some draw and that's enough because you then have them. Yeah. No, no, no, totally. I think so. I think so. You know, I've written three books about propaganda now and I study it in my role at university.

When we think about propaganda, we have to think about it as a two-way street. It's always about reeling the audience in and getting them engaged, almost in a dance as a partner.

And I think we often think that propaganda is about brainwashing, or the audience is this passive white sheet that gets stamped on with the mark of the propagandist's message, when actually the most effective propaganda reels you in and makes you a partner. The Nazis were incredible at this in their own very devious way. We can look across the world today, the way people use social media to kind of make people part of the project.

People are also actors in the game of propaganda. I think you put it beautifully there. This idea, this kind of hate listening or irony listening is actually a way of starting to reel people in. You mentioned Sefton Delmer. We should talk about the counter-offensive. What can you tell us about that? So Sefton Delmer is brought in to the British system when the British start getting very alarmed. And they were, by the way, really alarmed by Bureau Concordia and by Lord Haw Haw. And they basically start questioning whether their own

propaganda to Germany, which is very square. And they were like, okay, the German seems to be better at it than us. And there's fantastic pieces in the British media talking about this. Goebbels is so inventive and trying different things and he's entertaining and he's very good at getting attention. I mean, the sort of things we say about effective, nasty propaganda today...

And Delman gets brought in to try something completely different. And he's sort of told by his bosses, all gloves are off. Go and do anything that you want. I mean, it's 1941. The Americans haven't joined the war. The Nazis haven't attacked Russia yet or the Soviet Union yet. These are very dark days.

So the first thing that Delma creates is a radio station pretending to be a far-right German officer who is meant to be somewhere in the sort of occupied France or occupied Poland, no one knows. And he's sending messages, almost like on a closed signal group, shall we say, that's suddenly open to his fellow officers, ranting about how much he hates the Nazi top brass. And unlike the...

Bureau Concordia, the Lord Haw Haw projects, the language is completely generic. The details are so amazing that even though some people suspect this might actually be a, you know, a false flag radio, they're like, well, it can't be. The British could never understand the German far-right soldier so well. That's a massive success, but it uses a huge amount of pornography. There's all these really quite remarkably graphic scenes of sort of German officers having sex with each other and various people

ladies of the night of captive Europe and a lot of sailors and a lot of pickle helmets and butter involved. It was all very, very graphic. Butter? Yes, there's a lot of butter involved and I'll leave it to your imagination. But again, all this is very, both sort of graphic to reel people in, also subverting people's fear of the Nazi leadership. You know, when you have kind of Gestapo people having orgies everywhere.

but also subtly subversive because butter was actually rationed. So this was always very subtly eating away at the official reputation of the leadership. How effective were these broadcasts in discouraging and demoralising the German troops and the wider German population?

So that's a really good question. I mean, look, how effective is any kind of media? So when we look at effectiveness, we can look at different types of metrics. So the one that I think is the most direct one to look at is just audience numbers. And by the way, that's how most media measure their success these days. What were the ratings for your show?

And in that sense, what Delman managed to do was to reach ordinary German citizens and German soldiers. And that was his aim. Yeah, he didn't want to do stuff for the remaining German liberals. That was easy. He wanted to reach through what we would call the echo chamber and reach ordinary Germans.

So the British were doing kind of these polls of German POWs. Around half of them were listening to the radios. I mean, imagine we get half of Russian soldiers to listen to our media today or half of supporters of an authoritarian leader anywhere to tune into our media. That's stunning numbers, as you guys know.

In terms of actually like getting people to defect, which was part of Delma's aims, much harder to get, you know, a quote on that. But still, in terms of breaking through echo chambers, which is what I'm interested in, how do you reach people who are trapped in a bubble where they seem to be in love with, as you say, one of the most effective authoritarian propagandas in history?

He did it. He managed to talk to ordinary Germans, ordinary Nazi soldiers, and he managed to find a language within which they could express their hidden resentment towards their own leadership. But Delma, I think he was always very realistic. He basically said, look, all propaganda can do is help the military. And these days, all propaganda can do is help the policy. And the idea that propaganda lives in some sort of separate realm is silly. It's part of your

broader effort. So he was always very honest. Look, the propaganda got more successful, the better the military operations got. You mentioned getting the detail right. How important was truth to Sefton Delmer and the team? He was as factual as he could possibly be. So actually, a huge part of his operation was research gathering. And his theory was that we have to give people in Germany, soldiers on the front, people at home,

more facts about their lives than the Nazis do. So he had this incredible network of researchers bringing in the facts of life for the ordinary soldier. So he had French partisans who would give him the details about, I don't know, which venereal disease, which prostitute would have in which bar and calais so that he could talk about the dangers of going to that brothel and don't sleep with that prostitute.

He was intercepting letters by mid-level Nazi officials writing to their family in America, for example, talking about the great parties they had. And then he would talk about these decadent parties that Nazi officials were having as people starved. But he was definitely using the truth that was relevant to people and that would totally subvert their belief in and their confidence in their leadership and would give people the excuse they needed later.

to defect, you know, not charge headlong into battle, sabotage their own U-boats, just fight worse or be a worse Nazi citizen, not go to the Nazi rally, not sacrifice your money as you were meant to for the forces, sabotage your engagement with the Nazi project.

Now, I'm not personally in the market for producing war propaganda, but I do like to get my own way. So what lessons could I learn from the propagandists of World War II about running a successful campaign? Well, look, whether we like it or not, we live in a world right now hypercharged by propaganda because of the advantages given to it by new forms of technology.

So first, I think we have to at least understand what the enemy does. And even though there are vast differences with the past, there's also emotional truths and psychological truths that come back over and over again. And I think one of the things we've fallen into is to pitch or frame the current global fight as

as one between information versus disinformation. And that kind of misses the point. Study after study shows that people will, they will adopt the lies that suit their worldview. So it's really the worldview and why it's relevant to people that you have to interrogate. And these days we're all very concerned with Russian propaganda, which I've written about a lot. And again, we always talk about Russian disinformation. Obviously that's a huge issue, but

But the reason it works is because they've created these deep narratives that give people a world view that they enjoy and an identity that they find satisfying. And I think Delmar understood that. His propaganda was all about undermining the underlying reality.

sense of community that the Nazis were so good at creating. So you gave people an alternative community to be part of. You didn't have to be part of the Nazi folk. You could belong to other ways of being German. And then he tapped into the sort of violent emotions that propaganda is so good at legitimizing. Propaganda, whether it's the Nazis or a lot of the stuff today, is about allowing people to be the worst of themselves and saying it's okay to be cruel and sadistic. And the

Delma's counterpropaganda looked to find other ways of expressing violent emotions and deep sexual aggression and other very, very nasty things, but in a way that got you to a much less nasty place.

And finally, and perhaps most importantly, the nastiest forms of propaganda, whether it's the Nazis, the Soviets or the stuff we see today, is all about kind of saying that you have to give your agency to the leader. They will be your retribution. You are part of a crowd. You can feel powerful through them. While Delma's propaganda was all about saying, you know, you're in control. You can take charge of your life.

So I think those three things, an alternative form of community, working with those violent, aggressive feelings that propagandists manipulate so well, and then finally saying, actually, you can take back control yourself. I think those are the three kind of pillars that he was so effective in tapping into. Every big moment starts with a big dream. But what happens when that big dream turns out to be

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Go to survivalguidebook.com to pre-order How to Survive Against the Odds today and get the perfect gift in time for graduation and Father's Day. In your book, Nothing is True and Everything is Possible, you describe the surreal nature of Russian propaganda. How do you think it compares to Western disinformation tactics?

One of my favorite philosophers, Jacques Ellul, defines several layers of propaganda. At the superficial level, you have something what he calls political propaganda. So that's campaigns, election campaigns, political advertising, the kind of obvious stuff that we're always sort of analyzing and dissecting. And then he talks about something much deeper, which is the stories that we use to put together society and keep it together, which we often don't do consciously.

So he talks about America a lot and the concept of the American dream or the American way of life as a way to gather this uncontrollably pluralistic society into something cohesive.

The risk of that is that when it becomes unconscious and something we don't reflect on, it can become very aggressive. Are you part of our American life or are you an enemy? So the democratic kind of response to that is to be constantly analysing it, to be saying, OK, so what is the American way of life? What is the American dream? Let's think about these things which we need to exist as a society. They're inevitable if we're going to organise ourselves.

But what do they mean? So democracy has a way to critique it and also almost like therapy, constantly be talking about it and reinventing it. And everyone has a role in that. While an authoritarian approach will not have that space. It'll basically say, this is us, that is them. And to be them is something that is dangerous and can be attacked. So I think we all need propaganda to live in. But the question is, like, how is our living within it organized?

And looking at where we are today, do you think there is a modern day Lord Haw Haw? Do any of these bad actors have an effective man on the inside? Oh my God, I think the more I look at the history of propaganda, the more I see things repeat and repeat. And they often repeat with the arrival of new technology, which allows bad actors to try lots of things. It's almost metronomic. A new technology appears, everybody gets excited, radio, social media, print, etc.

Then the bad guys take control of it and use it to spread genocidal hate and murder. And then the people who are slightly less bad go, hold on, how can we use this medium for actually something which is less toxic? And so you have, for all its faults, the BBC, which is a response to what, partly what the Nazis are doing with radio. And,

And I think you made a brilliant point that Ho-Ho is someone quite recognisable for us today. It's very hard looking at today's propagandists. Are they attracting us through their grotesquerie? I mean, you know, we kind of laugh at them, but then are they laughing at us when that happens? So that kind of snide tone, that deep...

at some point, in some senses, very sort of nihilistic cynicism, which tears apart confidence and the confidence of anything good. It's something that repeats. So maybe Haw Haw is actually kind of like way ahead of his time and we're surrounded by Haw Haws now with their weird cackles, which are both grotesque and the more they laugh, the more frightening they are. He certainly felt like a very modern figure, didn't he, when we were talking?

were talking about it throughout the series. Can the good guys ever win that war in trying to harness that technology? I think good and bad is probably naive. I think bad and less bad. The lessers of many different evils. Of course they can, but you have to do it. And I think it's very interesting reading

the autobiography of Lord Reith, who was a very strange man who created the BBC. But he's very consciously saying in his autobiography that the drive to create the BBC was to counterbalance tabloid polarisation at home and then dictators use of radio abroad. He was like, we're going to use radio in a different way. You know, he kind of invokes the ancient Athenian Agora, the idea of a common space where society can come together to talk to each other in a more equal way. That is a very conscious attempt

with a huge amount of investment to counterbalance some of the worst things we saw in domestic propaganda in Britain and internationally. You've got to do it at scale. What we have to grow out of is that it will just magically happen. Traditionally, it takes a lot of intent. It takes a lot of investment. So right now, I think the big challenge is can we create social media that is conducive to media

not what Twitter has become. Can we produce social media that encourages a much more democratically productive debate and not just hate mobs under the control of whimsical, erratic billionaires? The people who want to use media to create societies where they have a lot of power and other people are ultimately dehumanized.

They understand this and they invest in this hugely, whether it's the Russians, the Chinese, various parts of the far right in America. They are very aware that this is a long term project that you need to invest a lot into. And I do worry that the forces that claim that they're there to save democracy don't have the totality of that approach. And at the moment, there's only really one side that's in this competition.

You mentioned the artist formerly known as Twitter. In your mind, where does the responsibility lie for the spread of propaganda? Is it with social media companies? Is it with governments or civil society? It's very obviously right now the crux of our debate is the responsibility of tech companies.

We saw how Elon Musk sort of like swarmed in like some sort of character out of Dune on his massive like Twitter, on his massive X ship to the tiny planet of Great Britain and basically played some sort of important role in sparking riots here, allegedly, I should probably say, and then playing a vastly outsized role in the debate around these horrific grooming gangs. We still haven't got our heads around this.

the policy to make sure that we have genuine freedom of speech around these issues. What's really worrying is that the people who are actually using wealth and power in order to crush different forms of speech and elevate their own, who are creating a very unequal environment, who are censoring people on their platforms and then boosting their own often deeply toxic political ideologies,

they're not regulated in any way at all. So you could say the newspaper moguls used to do that, but they're regulated. That's exactly it. They did. And so if, I don't know, if a right-wing tabloid writes some huge untruth, they can be sued for defamation. So again, it's always hard to rein in the powerful, but there are tools. But with tech companies who have way more power than any newspaper mogul ever did, they can just do what the hell they like. How do you think AI will change things?

Well, both sides have AI, frankly. So whoever uses it to their end will be the most effective. It's the same with social media. You could create a social media for good or you can create a social media for evil. You can create radio for good or for evil. So it really is, again, it's another technology. So it certainly makes some things easier. So far, we haven't seen the kind of like the AI deepfake apocalypse that a lot of people were fearing. That doesn't mean it's not coming. But again, you might have AI

AI being very effective at debunking deepfakes because you can spot the kind of technological anomalies quicker than the naked eye. So I think it really is about people at the end of the day. I'm not a technological determinist. I think the way that it is used is going to be the important thing. And if we're getting into the technicalities of

The most effective propaganda isn't thinking purely about a technology. It's thinking about a combination. Like, how can you use this and AI and social media and old-fashioned cultural influence? And how do you put them together in an operation that is effective? Lord Haw Haw was served the ultimate punishment. Goebbels killed himself before he could face justice. Do you think we should pursue the propagandists of today as we would war criminals?

Yep, and there's far more. Well, firstly, there were a couple of propagandists on trial at Nuremberg. But interestingly, the main presenter of the Reich's radio, Hans Fritscher, was found not guilty at Nuremberg because you couldn't prove that his words were directly connected to genocide and to crimes against humanity. He said, look, I said lots of horrible things, but I'm just a guy saying words. Words don't kill. I had no idea about the military plans. I wasn't part of planning the Holocaust. What about free speech? And he was found not guilty.

So nowadays, I think we have an incredible opportunity to track the correlation between propaganda and crimes. It's not just some guy saying something on a radio. With online campaigns, we can track how a campaign, for example, I've been looking at how the Russians create info alibis to give themselves an excuse for war crimes. You can see how the online campaign will...

claim that, I don't know, the Ukrainians are about to blow up somewhere in occupied Ukraine, and then the Russians do it themselves. So they're victim blaming. They did the same thing in Syria, constantly saying that the opposition are using chemical weapons right before they use it themselves. So unlike with the radio, where you just had someone saying this on radio, online you can actually track the campaign. You can work out who's behind it. You can see how it starts to peak in the moments before a war crime. There's so much more evidence tying in

disinformation operations, in this case with specific war crimes, I think we're in a new kind of space and a new opportunity for catching these bastards. I think new technology both gives huge opportunities to propagandists. It also gives interesting new avenues for accountability as well. Huge thanks to Peter Pomerantsev for getting us up to speed with the use of propaganda. That was fascinating.

So Alice, what have we got next? Well, it involves someone we've mentioned today. You. Okay, me. We mentioned Goebbels, Hitler and Vladimir Putin in today's episode. I don't think it's going to be Goebbels or Hitler because you're always banging on about them. I'm going to go for Vladimir Putin. And you'd be right. And this is a relatively recent scandal.

I mean, there are quite a few recent scandals involving Vladimir Putin, so that doesn't really narrow it down. Specifically, it involves a botched assassination, a military-grade nerve agent and an innocent lad's holiday to the apparently world-famous Salisbury Cathedral. The cathedral with the 123-metre spire. You better believe it. A visit there sparked a major international incident, the ramifications of which we're still very much feeling today.

Join us next time for the Salisbury poisonings. We've been talking about this one since the very beginning of British Scandal. I cannot wait to do it. Follow British Scandal on the Wondery app, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge entire seasons early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.

Thank you.

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