Shownotes Transcript
Wondery Plus subscribers can binge entire seasons of British Scandal early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. From Wondery, I'm Alice Levine. And I'm Matt Ford. And this is British Scandal. MUSIC
Right, Margaret Campbell, the Duchess of Argyle. Fair to call her the Dirty Duchess, do we think, Matt? Well, I mean, in those days, for there to be explicit photos of you entertaining a gentleman caller and really entertaining him, it doesn't necessarily scream Duchess, but...
She obviously didn't expect her husband to break into her home, steal her private property and share that with the world. Yeah, dirty duke more like. Am I right, ladies? So this whole story for me comes back to an intersection we know all too well in British Scandal. The crossroads of misogyny and class hypocrisy. Two of my favourite topics. As a nation, we're obsessed with the aristocracy, we're obsessed with their sex lives and of course we have held...
men and women to different sexual standards throughout history and in the present day, which partly explains why the press went so wild for all the salacious gossip in Margaret's divorce case.
Yes, exactly. And our next guest is an expert in bold aristocratic women throughout history. In fact, she is a returning guest. As you'll remember, Matt, she spoke to us once before about the Mitford sisters in our series Hitler's Angel. Lindsay Spence is the author of The Grit in the Pearl, The Scandalous Life of Margaret, Duchess of Argyll. And she's spoken directly to many of Margaret's close friends and family. And she even discovered the true identity of the headless man. Lindsay joins us next.
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Get the Rakuten app now and join the 17 million members who are already saving. Cashback rates change daily. See Rakuten.com for details. That's R-A-K-U-T-E-N. Your cashback really adds up. Lindsay, it's so nice to have you back on the show. What first got you interested in the Duchess of Argyle? I think it was a natural progression from the naughty Mitford girls.
I'd always heard of Margaret as just this tabloid, bad woman. And I thought, I quite like the sound of her. And I started to research her and discovered that actually, this isn't right. This is quite bad the way she was treated. And perhaps I wasn't part of the norm, but I decided I don't really like that narrative.
that we're hearing and reading and seeing about Margaret, I'm sure there's something more to it. And that was really the start of my interest in her. I think I wanted to try and redeem her. So once you started digging deeper, what about her character really stood out?
I think her strength and her courage. One thing I love about Margaret is even at the height of the so-called scandal and when she was being vilified and her reputation was destroyed, she kept saying, you know, so what? It's none of your business. I can do whatever I want. I'm not hurting anybody. And I just really loved the way she was so unapologetic. And having grown up in the era of Britney and Christina, where it was the norm to pull young women apart,
I'd really pick on them and shame them and do all kinds of horrible things to them. I thought, well, Margaret came before them and she was really somebody that I looked up to and still today take a lot of strength from. It's so interesting you say that because she seemed to me to be a very modern character. That kind of, so what, I refuse to wear that heavy cloak of shame attitude kind of felt anachronistic to me. Yeah, and I think
When we look at women in the 40s, 50s and 60s, even 70s and so forth, even right up until recent days, you know, they're expected to hang their head in shame and be apologetic. And I just love that Margaret wasn't ready for them to sort of take her identity from her. She says, well, that's the few you have at me. I'm actually somebody very different. But you don't deserve to know the real me because you're out there vilifying me.
You spoke to Margaret's great-granddaughter, Viola, and to her son, who's sadly since passed. But what did the people close to her think of her? It was a tricky situation with Brian. He was very charming and nice and receptive. But when he read my manuscript, he did get a bit cross with me. Not because of anything I'd done to his mother, who he absolutely adored and didn't have a bad thing to say in regards to that. He thought I had vilified his grandfather.
which is quite interesting for me. Violet was very, very supportive. And you can tell from her social media that she loves her great grandmother. So both were positive in their own way. But it was also hard to break through that barrier because as a family, they're very guarded in terms of Margaret. And I can understand that because Frances, Margaret's daughter, was alive at the time.
And even though she was silent and never spoke about her mother, I think there was a lot of hurt and ill feelings just surrounding the whole image. I'm hoping you can help us imagine what a young Margaret was like, Lindsay. You've described her childhood as rich and splendid, but empty. What do you mean by that? I think she was the typical poor little rich girl. She was born in the suburbs of Glasgow, but she grew up on Park Avenue in New York.
She was an only child. Her mother and father didn't really get along. Today, I think we would perhaps have more empathy towards her mother. We might think that she suffered from depression. Margaret would speak of those dark moods where her mother would isolate herself. But Margaret always felt like her mother had rejected her. And I think that was quite hard for her to come to terms with as a young child. Margaret had a stammer and her mother didn't
couldn't really accept this or cope with this she said as you know Margaret it doesn't matter how beautiful you are or how many lovely things we give you if you're stammer in life you will always fail and Margaret really carried that with her but she was a total daddy's girl but her dad was largely absent he was off doing business deals and having affairs so I think Margaret was always very lonely
and always looking for love or just looking to be accepted. And her best friend as a little girl was actually Barbara Hutton, the Woolworth heiress. She was quite a tragic little girl as well. So it's quite sad to imagine these two little kids that have no real sense of family and are looking to be loved. And they're just there with all of their privileges and riches being cared for by Nanny. Do you think that childhood impacted Margaret's relationship with men?
I think it did with her first husband, Charles Sweeney. She was very traditional and she was a good wife. She was always looking to be supportive and build somebody up and give somebody love. And I think she was looking even for a traditional family in a way where she could be supported and I guess just have that love that she felt was lacking at home at the time. Am I right in thinking that she grew up very fast? Yes.
Yes, you could say that. Reading her memoirs is absolutely wild. She says, you know, she got her first perm when she was like three and she was going to the theatre with her mum when she was a little kid and going to dress fittings and travelling the world. So when Margaret was 15, she met David Niven on a holiday and
And he would later go on to become a famous Hollywood actor and when she was 15 she became pregnant to him and she was forced to get an abortion and after that she was sent off to finishing school in Paris to try and minimalise the scandal that might have come from that. So I think she was certainly always this child that was propelled into the adult world and into a world that I don't think any child can really navigate.
And it feels like always the focus of male attention. Absolutely. And I think she was conditioned to be, you know, something to be gazed at. A lot like Diana Mitford in a way that the beauty almost becomes a secondary character in their life story. She was always perfectly manicured and polished and debutante of the year. And her father had hired a publicist to get Margaret's
picture into the newspapers and that's all anybody really spoke of in those early days was you know beautiful Margaret Wiggum I think she enjoyed that because of the criticism she received from her mother when her mother was always correcting her or finding faults I think Margaret enjoyed all of these strangers adoring her in a way
Margaret's divorce case in 1963 was a huge scandal. Obviously the Polaroids of her with the mystery man are something that we've featured in the series. What was the reaction when those photos came out?
It was the most scandalous thing, if you could imagine, 1963. So it happened in between the decency case regarding Lady Chatterley and the Perfumo affair. And you have Margaret, who was in her 40s at the time, a grandmother. Her daughter was also a duchess. And
It was almost as if she had disgraced the establishment. Well, she did, in people's eyes, disgrace the establishment and shine a light on the aristocracy and what went on behind closed doors. It was absolutely terrible what she had done in the eyes of the public and her peers.
I think you've compared it to, and we also discussed the sort of parallel with sex tapes being released in the modern day. That kind of felt like the closest analogy we could come up with. Yes, absolutely. It was Kamala Anderson's tape in the 90s, Kim Kardashian. And even I think there are elements of celebrity hacking involved. Obviously, it wasn't computers back then, but to have your private property stolen and exhibited, I mean, I can't imagine the humiliation she felt.
And public opinion at the time, would that have been sympathetic to her at all? Would there have been any sense that actually these are private property or would people have seen even the existence of them as a scandalous thing? No, people thought she was disgusting and depraved and a sex maniac. She was really portrayed as a freak in a way, just somebody that shouldn't be functioning in polite society.
One of the tabloids actually ran a photograph of the Duchess of Argyll ferry and wrote Q here for the Duchess of Argyll. So that kind of gives you a sense in 1963 what was going on in the tabloids at the time. And obviously Margaret wasn't the only person in those Polaroids. How did you find out who the mystery headless man was?
Margaret herself always denied that it was Duncan Sands and Douglas Fairbanks and all of the big names, the big chiefs in government that were named. And I always felt Margaret was, a lot of people thought she was a bit of a fantasist and a liar, but I always felt that she was totally honest because if she wanted to get away with it, she could have just said, yeah, that was such and such and played, I guess, the victim card and the helpless woman card.
But I decided to go through all of her, in a way, her romantic history. And in her memoir, she really dwells on one guy that she was absolutely besotted with and she was engaged to after the war. And he was called Joe Thomas. And he was a self-made millionaire from Texas who lived in New York. And Margaret was absolutely crazy about American men, she said to herself.
And I discovered that his son, Michael, was alive and was quite a well-known author in his own right. And I contacted him just to say, look, I'm doing a book on the Duchess of Argyle. Your dad features in Margaret's memoirs. Could I chat to you? And he wrote back. And without even me prompting him, he told me the whole saga of the Polaroids and how whenever he was a young boy, he was rummaging in his dad's, you know, those big traveling trunks people used to keep.
And he was looking for something. And he came across a manila envelope. And he opened it. And he was like, what is this? It was a series of Polaroids of like a woman completely nude and his dad. And they were being a bit silly around Margaret's home and on the balcony and so forth. And he thought, oh, that must be my new stepmother. Because his father had said, you know, I'm going to bring your new stepmom back from Europe. So he thought, right, okay. And he said when his father came back, it wasn't with this beautiful brunette from the photographs.
It was with a blonde woman called Poppy, who Margaret also references in her memoirs. Joe Thomas had left her for an old fling called Poppy. And I thought that was so interesting that somebody else had a copy of these so-called scandalous photographs. And Margaret obviously kept the other set of Polaroids because, of course, the Duke of Argyll discovered him in a manila envelope. And it just made sense. So why didn't she reveal his identity?
In my opinion, I think Margaret didn't reveal his identity because I think it gave her a sense of control to keep that private, to decide, well, you've already invaded my privacy by looking at the photographs and making them public knowledge. I'm not going to tell you anything about them or reveal who the person was. Because there must have been part of her that thought, well, there are two people in this photograph. I'm getting all the heat. Why shouldn't the man have some of the attention as well?
Margaret could be very stubborn and pig-headed. And I think that plays into her philosophy that nobody's business. I'm sure you have lots to say on this question, Lindsay. But in what ways do you think that Margaret was treated unfairly in her divorce? Oh, gosh, there's so many things. I think she was treated unfairly because, first of all, the dynamics were off. Margaret and her husband had been estranged.
They had an understanding that, you know, they wouldn't divorce, but they would have an open marriage. He stayed in Scotland and she went to London and did her own thing. She was a trust fund baby. Her father was absolutely loaded in money. She had an income from her father.
And of course, her husband benefited from that income. But her father discovered, in his words, he was throwing good money after bad. He refused to finance the Duke of Argyll any further. They had already renovated in Brerary Castle and paid off his debts. And it still wasn't good enough. Her father felt like he wasn't applying himself. He would just sort of laze around on the sofa getting drunk all day. And the money was cut off.
And like all of the Duke of Argyle's wives, he married rich women or he courted rich women for their money. And Margaret wasn't giving him any money anymore. And he decided to divorce her because he already had somebody else waiting in the wings, ready to finance his life in exchange for a title. And instead of being the one to be divorced this time, the Duke of Argyle decided he would do the divorcing.
and that's when he decided to build his case around Margaret. So I think that was something that wasn't fair and he used every mean imaginable. You know, he was stealing her diaries, he was reading her letters, he had set detectives on her and all of her comings and goings, they were being photographed and reported as evidence of adultery. But Margaret had many gay friends and back in the 60s it was a crime
to be openly gay. So she would never divulge that, well, actually, I'm not really sleeping with him because he's gay. She would just say, all right, yeah, okay. I'm up to all sorts of all of these guys and leave it at that. So I think that was part of one of the first things I thought, well, it's not really playing fair, is it? And in his bid to get all this evidence of adultery, he really set out to destroy her and the Polaroids play into that.
That's so interesting about the gay friends and also about not revealing the headless man. It feels like not only was she not willing to be shamed herself, but she wasn't willing to be part of the process of shaming other people. Absolutely. And the judge, the way he talked to and about her was incredible. Yes, Lord Wheatley. So he was a very theatrical man. He...
was part of Clan Campbell on his mother's side, so he was distantly related to the Duke of Argyll. He was a very staunch Catholic. He was known for being very severe when it came to so-called sex crimes, which is what he classed Margaret's indiscretions as. And he really vilified her in his, you know, at the end of the divorce case. He really said, you know, this is a salacious woman. She's disgusting, disgusting.
She can't be satisfied with normal sexual relations. But what I love about Margaret is she didn't go to the, you know, the final day of the hearing. She went to Paris with her boyfriend. And when the verdict was read to her over the phone, she says, well, God knows he was an old bastard. And she left it at that. And she thought that she could move on with her life. But unfortunately, there was another devil waiting in the wings, the legal fees, which financially destroyed her.
How did other women react to the sex scandal? Margaret in her memoirs wrote that some women went to the public gallery at the Court of Session in Edinburgh and they wrote to her afterwards saying, you were so composed and so courageous and it's not right what is happening. I personally never discovered any evidence of that, but I could imagine it was very divisive. I'm sure a lot of women who were perhaps trapped in loveless marriages or just trapped in other ways, I'm sure they felt empathy for her, but largely it's
People thought she was disgusting and disgraceful. There's no other way to describe it. I suppose in a way, if you look at the 60s and giving what she's this well-to-do middle-aged woman with children and grandchildren, I'm sure the shock was immense. We had to keep reminding ourselves that this was happening in the 60s because we often associate that decade with sexual revolution and liberation.
So there was a lot of hypocrisy going on, I presume, and I guess certain people had the license to behave a certain way and others didn't. Is that fair? I think in a way, yes. But in the early 60s, people still were very conservative in their behavior. It's much later in the decade that all of the so-called free love and drugs, you know, sex, drugs and rock and roll came into play. In the early 60s, people were still very much in that post-war mindset of family values,
and traditional gender roles and the class system was still very much at play in the early 1960s. So in a way, the case is very much a product of its time and the way it was handled. Although it feels like men were having extramarital affairs.
oh but that always happens doesn't it throughout history they can go off and do whatever they want and it's like well good for you and that's the thing if it had to be in the Duke of Argyle having really pornographic photographs being passed around his club they would have patted him on the back kind of scenario so there's always that hypocrisy isn't there
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Lamont Jones' world is shattered when his cousin dies in custody just weeks after entering prison. The official report says natural causes, but bruises and missing teeth tell a different story. From Wondery comes Death County, PA, a chilling true story of corruption and cover-ups that begins as one man's search for answers, but soon reveals a disturbing pattern.
Lamont's cousin's death is just one of many, and powerful forces are working to keep the truth buried. With never-before-heard interviews and shocking revelations, Death County PA pulls back the curtain on one of America's darkest institutional secrets. This isn't just another true crime story. It's happening right now.
Follow Death County PA on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Death County PA early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. So what about the class element in this? Were the aristocracy more likely to be having scandalous sexual relations than the working classes? Yes, absolutely. I mean...
Whenever I research all the aristocrats throughout the different eras of history, they can live more freely because, you know, they're in control. They're the ruling classes. They have the money to do so. And also the authority that sort of the lower classes aren't going to question anything that they do. So that was very, very common. You know, it was very common for a husband and wife to go off in their separate ways, but not divorce as soon as a son was born because they had secured the bloodline.
So it was very, very normal what Margaret and Ian were doing prior to him wanting a divorce for his own financial means. There was nothing unusual about a husband and wife going off than having their own separate romantic partners and perhaps living that way until the end of time. And there's a story about Margaret Thatcher, isn't there?
Yeah, so Margaret in the 1960s or perhaps the late 60s, early 70s, she wanted to adopt some underprivileged children. She felt like she had a lot of love to give and could give them a nice life. And she discovered two boys, the Gardner boys. And although she didn't formally adopt them because she had been rejected as a single divorcee, she...
had quite an informal arrangement with their family and she put them through school and took them to London and really spoiled them. And Margaret Thatcher, who was, I believe, the education minister at the time, well, she was in government anyway, she tried to veto what Margaret wanted to do because she just felt like Margaret was an absolute demon. She shouldn't be let loose around impressionable children and she tried to stop Margaret's bid
to look after those boys. But of course she failed. Margaret got her own way and the boys really loved her. They referred to her as Aunt Margaret. They had nothing but good things to say about her. It's incredible that a Secretary of State would be intervening in individual adoption cases. Well, Margaret, it was a bit weird the way she did it. She went to a school and kind of eyed up all of these kids and thought which boys look like they need the most help. So it was a bit strange the way she did it. But I think her heart was in the right place.
And of course, we know that at one point she was going to adopt a Polish baby. So this was an instinct she'd had for a while. Yeah, she was playing dirty the way the Duke of Argyle was. So when he was throwing things at her, she, in her own childlike way, was thinking, what can I do to destroy my husband? And she was eyeing up a scheme in Poland where she would go to Venice, had her stomach cut
come back, secretly give birth to the Duke's son, and it would be a Polish child, and he would be the legitimate heir of the Duke of the Marlgile, and everything would be fine. Of course, I mean, it sounds so bizarre when I say it, but in Margaret's head, it all made sense. So that was a genuine plan of hers? Yeah. What could go wrong? Very EastEnders, isn't it? Yeah, it's sort of so ridiculous that you think it's a work of fiction, yeah.
What happened to Margaret after the divorce, and how did she feel about the way she was treated?
She always felt like she had done nothing wrong. And what I love about Margaret is she was always ready just to build herself back up again and, you know, just try and keep living. But her father had died. Her stepmother had actually joined the Duke of Argyll to sue Margaret for all kinds of slanderous things. And Margaret was hemorrhaging money because not only did she pay her legal fees, she had to pay her husband's legal fees because he wasn't
particularly well off. And with her father dead and the trust fund dwindling away, she was running out of money and she opened her home for people to come, you know, look around. And that couldn't save her. And she ended up losing her home, losing her money and living in a series of hotel rooms until she finally ended up in a nursing home. Do you feel like Margaret's life and the case and also all of the behavior that surrounded it
has changed anything long-term? I think it's certainly shone a light on...
you know what today we would call as you know celebrity hacking and invasions of privacy actually I think it was in 1967 either 65 or 1967 the Duke of Argyle wanted to release his memoirs in the newspapers and he was going to release confidential information regarding Margaret's health because she had a head injury during the war and the Duke always says well that left her a bit
You know, he said she was insane after it and an infomaniac, which absolutely wasn't true. But he was going to publish these in the newspaper and Margaret fought him through the courts and prevented him from revealing that. So in a way, she had her own small victory that she could use privacy laws to her benefit. And I think today we have evolved from those privacy laws because we
Whenever things are leaked about celebrities or anybody in the public eye or just anybody in particular, you know, there's laws regarding revenge porn and privacy that we can act on. And I think Margaret was certainly setting the tone for that to happen, those ways in which we can protect people today. But back then, she probably felt like, you know, it was a free for all, it was a feeding frenzy.
And to be clear, it was straight out of the classic playbook of the abusive husband. He essentially said she was insane and should be institutionalized. Yes. But Margaret is so interesting because her husband was addicted to Purple Hearts. He was dealing with a lot of trauma after being taken prisoner of war during World War II. He had a lot of demons. And Margaret knew this and thought she could help him and build him up.
But she also became his victim because like his first wife, Janet Aitken, who was the daughter of Lord Beaverbrook, he was so violent and physically and emotionally abusive. And she just really felt trapped with him. But she was also very, she had a lot of pride and she felt like she couldn't tell anybody what was happening because a lot of people had pre-warned her not to marry him.
So she thought she could make the best of it. And she tried to like turn her home into his club so he wouldn't go out to it. He would stay at home and get drunk and she could control it. And she actually said, I don't think it's really him. I think it's because he's a Gemini.
he has a split personality so as funny as that seems she was always looking for ways to justify the situation that she had found herself in and I think that's quite sad as well that she felt like and a lot of women felt that way in the 60s even before there was nobody that would listen to her because in a way she had made her bed she could lie in it. Do you think Margaret would have been treated differently if her story happened today?
I think the law would have been on her side, but in terms of the media, I don't think so at all. I think it would have been another thing that all of the tabloids would have focused on and humiliation would have been just the same, probably worse because of the internet. As a historian and a writer and somebody who relishes stories, this must have felt like such a kind of juicy biography when it first came across your desk.
It really did, but I felt like all of the interest is perhaps in the unexpected things about Margaret. So although she's very self-assured in her sexuality and does whatever she wants, and rightly so, she wasn't hurting anybody, there's another side to her that she really wasn't doing anything that nobody else wasn't doing, but they weren't taking photographs of it. And I think that's where...
People thought that was the blurred line, that she was being an exhibitionist in a way and she deserved that treatment. But yeah, I mean, I thought she was just the most wonderful subject to explore. And I'm happy I did so because I think when you look past all of the scandal and the tabloid rumors, you find somebody that's actually very, very forward thinking and almost like a modern day feminist in the way she carried herself.
And do you think there have been any changes since 1963 in how the media treat women when it comes to covering the divorce of celebrities, royals or aristocracy? No, I don't think so at all. I actually think it's worse, like I said, because of the internet. There's an anecdote that would be published and the anecdote lasts forever because of the internet. If you could leave us with one detail that's come up in all of your research that feels really unexpected about Margaret, what would that be?
Well, for me, I would just love that she was an advocate for animals. It just seems so strange, but also made a lot of sense. She was victimized and treated in a really inhumane way as a woman. And she became an ambassador for abused animals and neglected animals. And she funded an animal sanctuary and really raised awareness for animal rights and
I love that about her because I love animals too and I thought it shows that she really did have a kind heart and she was a good woman because anybody that loves animals has to be good. Lindsay, it's always such a pleasure to chat to you. That was so fantastic. Thank you.
Always a brilliant conversation when Lindsay Spence is on. Thank you to her for sharing her amazing knowledge on the Dirty Duchess. As I mentioned earlier, if you enjoyed this, you should also go back to our Hitler's Angel series about aristocratic beauty and fascist Diana Mitford, in which Lindsay unpacked how the Mitfords became Britain's most scandalous sisters.
Right, Matt, looking forward, what have we got next? Well, speaking of Hitler, if I said, Germany calling, Germany calling, does that mean anything to you? Other than the fact that Germany's calling...
No. Well, I'm talking about a gripping tale of betrayal, propaganda and national identity set against the backdrop of World War II. It involves volatile tempers, extreme politics and a charismatic Irish-American fascist called William Joyce who joined the Nazi party. And not only did he join the party, he became the voice of the party, literally. Join us next time for a thrilling exploration of one of World War II's most infamous voices, Lord Hawthorne.
From Wondery and Samizdat Audio, this is our fourth and final episode in our series, The Dirty Duchess. Follow British Scandal on the Wondery app, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge entire seasons early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.
Everyone has that friend who seems kind of perfect. For Patty, that friend was Desiree. Until one day... I texted her and she was not getting the text. So I went to Instagram, she has no Instagram anymore. And Facebook, no Facebook anymore. Desiree was gone. And there was one person who knew the answer. I am a spiritual person, a magical person.
A gorgeous Brazilian influencer called Cat Torres, but who was hiding a secret.
From Wondery, based on my smash hit podcast from Brazil, comes a new series, Don't Cross Cat, about a search that led me to a mystery in a Texas suburb. I'm calling to check on the two missing Brazilian girls. Maybe get some undercover crew there. The family are freaking out. They are lost. I'm Chico Felitti. You can listen to Don't Cross Cat on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.
British Scandal is hosted by me, Alice Levine. And me, Matt Ford. Our engineer is Jai Williams. For Samizdat, our producer is Redzi Bernard. Our assistant producer is Louise Mason. Our senior producers are Joe Sykes and Dasha Lisitzina. For Wondry, our senior producer is Theodora Leloudis. And our senior managing producer is Rachel Sibley. Executive producers for Wondry are Estelle Doyle, Chris Bourne and Marshall Louis. Horrifying.
Whole Foods started in the counterculture city of Austin, Texas, and it took pride in being anti-corporate and outside the mainstream. But like the city itself, Whole Foods has morphed over the years, for better and perhaps for worse, and is now a multi-billion dollar brand. In the latest season of Business Wars, we explore the meteoric rise of the Whole Foods brand. On its surface, it's a story of how an idealistic founder made good on his dream of changing American food culture.
But it's also a case study in the conflict between ambition and idealism, how lofty goals can wilt under the harsh light of financial realities, and what gets lost on the way to the top. Follow Business Wars on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge Business Wars, The Whole Foods Rebellion, early and ad-free right now on Wondery+.
In the early hours of December 4th, 2024, CEO Brian Thompson stepped out onto the streets of midtown Manhattan. This assailant pulls out a weapon and starts firing at him. We're talking about the CEO of the biggest private health insurance corporation in the world. And the suspect... He has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione. ...became one of the most divisive figures in modern criminal history. I was targeted...
premeditated and meant to sow terror. I'm Jesse Weber, host of Luigi, produced by Law & Crime and Twist. This is more than a true crime investigation. We explore a uniquely American moment that could change the country forever. He's awoken the people to a true issue.
Finally, maybe this would lead rich and powerful people to acknowledge the barbaric nature of our health care system. Listen to Law and Crime's Luigi exclusively on Wondery+. You can join Wondery in the Wondery app, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts.