AHFG Book Club: Jenny Williamson's Enemy of My Dreams
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I'm Jen McMenemy from the Ancient History Fan Girl podcast. And I am Liv Albert from Let's Talk About Myths, baby! I said I would do it and I did it and it was terrible. Go ahead, Jen. And today we are joined by a very special debut author. Liv and I are going to co-host this joint episode. We are delighted to welcome a brand new writer.

rising star in the romantic genre she writes spicy sultry sexy scenes morally gray heroes hot mess heroines and y'all i have never blushed so hard while reading a book join us in welcoming southern lady now oh oh bless your heart live

Now join us in welcoming, my accent is literally all over the place and it's never going to stop. Now join us in welcoming Jenny Williamson, author of Enemy of My Dreams to the podcast. And name you've never heard before. She's a brand new debut author. Hi, thanks for having me. Thank you for

for coming on our show. You're welcome. I'm so honored to be asked. Oh, I will. And we are honored to have you. We are. I knew I needed some extra backup for our February Ancient History Fangirl Book Club pick. So I asked Liv if she would kindly come on and help me interview this totally unknown brand new author.

And though I have never, I've never met this author at all before, I just happened to have read the book like a good five or six months ago now. I was just real lucky that I got a crazy, crazy advanced copy. Yes. Yeah.

Jenny's like, okay, we get it guys. I had nothing to do with that. No, I'm really enjoying this. Let's continue. Well, Jenny, I'm glad to hear you say that because I'm going to start right out of the gate with the tough questions. I could do this in my sleep, but my first question for you, Jenny, is

Can you give us the elevator pitch for Enemy of My Dreams? So Jen has asked me this on several different episodes. But you've never been on this show before. I don't know why you're trying to pretend like you're a regular. I dreamed it. But fine. I just met the two of you. Yes, exactly. And Jen would have no way of knowing that this is a difficult question for me. Okay, wait. I have a copy of my book in front of me. So...

Can I really just read what's on the flyer? You can't read the copy. No, you can't read the copy. Jen says I can. It's like that shout line I use on your website. Well, not unless you plan to have your book. Well, but I mean, then you have to have it memorized, basically. Yeah. Remember Thea? We had Thea Guazan on earlier to talk about her book, The Hurricane Wars, and I asked her the same question. I have zero memory of this because I was not on that. You've never been on the show before. That's exactly right. Well.

Well, I'm going to tell, I'm going to remind both of our listeners. This is going great already. Both of our listeners. Both of our listeners, Myths Baby listeners and fangirl listeners. Oh no, just the two people who are listening to this right now. There's two listeners. I'm keeping all of this.

To the two people listening. But anyway, I'm just going to remind listeners that one of the best things she advised Jenny to do as a debut author and for all authors is to know your elevator pitch to be able to pitch your book. Now, we did this months ago back in October, and I warned Jenny I would ask her this. I am getting scolded right now. Excuse me, debut author. Hardcore scolded. I'm going to talk to your publicist about this. This is unacceptable behavior. Jen! Jen!

You need some media training, girl. Is this how you train all the authors who come on your show? Well, I know you're not experienced with podcasting, Jenny, but I just have to tell you that like, you know, sometimes you really just need to be able to go with the flow and you're going to need to be able to answer these questions. You have to listen. So for...

This is clearly your first podcast to promote this book. You've never been on a podcast before. We're trying to ease you into it. We're doing you a favor for all of your future podcasting goals, which I know you have. Yeah, this is a softball question. Yeah, exactly. You guys are doing so well.

Right. Okay, wait. So my elevator pitch, and every time Jen asks me this question, which she has never asked me before, I get all flappy. No, never. So, in the last days of the Roman Empire, a brutal Gothic warlord and a hot mess, potentially tipsy heroine, forge a dangerous alliance to take down the Roman Empire. So why do you think readers will love this book? Well,

Well, I think that readers will love this book because it's a real enemies to lovers, which means that these are two characters who really have a reason to be enemies. They're from a sort of... They exist on two opposite sides of this gulf of history and culture and what their people have done to each other over the centuries. And they're both real big mad at each other right out of the gate, which I find hot. And...

I mean, and they're at cross purposes personally with their own goals. And I'm not going to go into too much detail because I don't want to spoil it with you guys. But it is really fun that way. And I also think, you know, like their personalities are kind of sparky together, which I really enjoy. It's got a lot of fun things that I love. Like there's kind of a found family trope going on where my princess heroine, Julia, kind of,

finds belonging in a place she doesn't expect it there's a lot of tipsiness there's a lot of um plotting revolutions tipsy which i think is i try to have fun with it you know and um

I think that's why people will love it. I will say you wrote Tipsy very well. And another thing I know about you from the little time that we've spoken on this podcast is that you are not a big drinker of wine. She's a tea toller. Absolutely. I can't say I've ever seen you with a glass of Prosecco in your hand. Never. And so, you know, how did you go about writing Tipsy in such a way?

Such a realistic way. Well, Liv, it might surprise you to hear that I enjoy imbibing a glass or two every so often. Do you really? Yes. Shocking. I thought you were a teetotaler. I thought you never drank. I mean, I think that I really, I wouldn't say that Julia is a self-insert. Go that far.

In fact, maybe Alaric is a self-insert. You know what? I think you're both of them. I think that's what makes it a great, with two great characters is that each of them are, you know, parts of you. Yeah, this book is me talking to myself. Messed up character. Yes. That's what it is. Um...

But I think that I have kind of thought of it this way sometimes where I'm like, my heroine is based on several different real life characters and people in the ancient world. But there's also quite a bit of me circa...

I don't know, 2015 running around Bushwick, going to all the bars. Like there's, there's some of that too, you know? I think it can be both, but okay. You actually led to a question that I've been, well, that we've kind of, no, we, excuse me. We haven't. Cause we, we don't know each other and you've never been on a podcast. That's right. We have never met just in case. I feel like I've, I've had these dreams of, of conversations with you in the past where

And so I would love to see if maybe there's a hint of reality in those dreams. And so in those dreams, you've talked a little bit about how, you know, this book is, it's

romantic so it does have those fantasy elements but I also know not at all that that you are you know knowledgeable on on ancient history because why would you be but instead I think maybe you've you've learned a little bit for this book alone about ancient Rome so how much of it is ancient is real ancient Rome how much of it is your own fantastical imagination like how concerned were you with that

Well, I like to refer to it as an occasionally true story. Like, yeah, good. Yeah. I think that what's funny about this, when I started writing this book, I knew basically next to nothing, you know? And I was just having a fun time and writing my own historical fan fiction. And I kind of figured this might, I would love to get this published someday, but I wasn't necessarily looking to write an extremely historical story.

historically accurate picture of what happened because I wanted to make Alaric of the Visigoths the hero of a romance novel which in itself is a non-historical concept. So... Especially when you look at any kind of images of him. Sorry. I don't know. He's kind of hot. He's absolutely sexy in reality. I don't know.

I am going to say. He has the world's best mustache. And I'm going to say this. The image that frequently comes up when you Google him is actually Alaric II because I know that Jenny did her research and checked that. However, I haven't found many images of Alaric I, so I always go with Alaric II. That's because he doesn't exist. Because if I'm going to ride a mustache, it's going to be that glorious. Well, look. If I'm going to ride a mustache, it might as well be that mustache. We broke loose.

Now, okay, this is not, this is an incredibly vital, important question. That's your answer to that entire question. No, but this, it does lead to another incredibly important question. And that is, can you remind me if your Alaric has a mustache? No.

No. Okay. Great. Great. Just checking. Just because of the historical accuracy. Right. So that's your answer to the historical accuracy question? It's not completely accurate because he does not have a mustache to ride. Well, okay. In the book he doesn't have a mustache. In the picture that will come up when you Google him, he does have a mustache. Is that picture actually of him? No. Um...

So this leads really nicely into my answer. Listen, he can have whatever you want. It's a romance novel. I'm not going to slam anyone's kink in what they like. Are barbarians, quote unquote, in the ancient Roman Empire associated with mustaches historically? Yes. Hot. Now moving on. That is the tripartite answer. Moving on. Tripartite answer.

I need to rein control of this interview back in. You're the ideal person to do that. That blew out my microphone. Excuse me. I really don't appreciate you questioning my professionalism. If you do it one more time, I will have to contact your publicist and request that before you do any more interviews, you get media training. Are you going to fake me?

This is really going off the rails, and this is not the kind of... It's like literally five minutes in. Listen, this is not the kind of podcast I run. This is not like that one time in the podcast where Brutus's wife, whose name I forget, but I'm going to call her Portia, literally said to Brutus, oh boy, get the horse phallus. I want to really talk this revolution out. I don't think that's historically attested. Moving on. I want to get back to this question I had. So...

Tell us where the idea for a romance between Alaric of the Visigoths and a Roman princess came from. Like, where is that from? It's from my head, Jen. Okay.

Okay, but no. I mean, that's obviously... But, like, because, like, we understand how fiction works, Jenny. Thank you. I know that you are the debut author, but, like... We're doing so well. Yes. Some of us have a degree in English. But... No, but, like... So...

my the original when i first started trying to write a novel obviously which has never come to fruition because you are the first debut author of fiction among us but um uh when i when it came to me like i think i i swear i just like maybe was just like browsing random greek mythology and i found like some weird little thing between cadmus and harmonia and i was like oh i'm obsessed with these characters i'm obsessed with like writing a story about them like

But Alaric of the Visigoths is truly, like, so random to me. So, like, how did you find Alaric and why...

is why did he become like your guy of the mustache rides? Okay. Yeah, why does he make a great hero? It can't be because of his mustache because you didn't write that into your book. You didn't. You have to pick something else. So it is not historically attested whether he had a mustache or not. We don't know what he looked like. But okay, so I do have a story about this. So I have a friend who I possibly like, you know,

One of my first friends we met in preschool, and she was over at my house one night, and she is a Latin linguist. And we were just talking about random historical things, and she wrote this quote on a napkin. Like, she wrote this Latin phrase on a napkin, and then she translated it for me. And it was...

I'm always bad at remembering this verbatim, but it was like, I grind you down with my bare hands, Rome. Give up your weapons and hide. And it was just so, like, visceral and, you know, kind of, like, scary. And I was like, who is this? And she's like, well, that's Alaric of the Visigoths who sacked Rome in 410 AD. And I was just like, who is this person? I must know everything about him. And then I just became obsessed with Alaric of the Visigoths. And he has several other quotable things that he said. Yeah.

Williamson?

Yes. I believe her name is Jennifer R.R. Williamson. I think it's Dutch. She has no relation to this person speaking. No, none. None at all. Yeah, so I just became completely obsessed with Alaric of the Visigoths and decided I needed to know all about him. And at some point wrote our first podcast episode, which was called Stuff Alaric Said. Not the first...

I don't believe you wrote that. I believe my co-host, Jennifer R.R. Williamson, wrote it. She's out ill today. She did want to meet you terribly, but unfortunately she's got the norovirus. Yeah, just couldn't work. Just couldn't work. You know, she and I have never been seen in the same room together. Is it a coincidence? I don't know. Yes.

So yeah, so that's how it happened. And I was, you know, kind of just became obsessed with the time period and the person. And I think what I really love about the time period is how

How much it was, it must've seemed like an apocalypse to the people living through it, like to the Romans who, you know, their empire was crumbling, but also to, um, the people living outside Rome, like the people who joined Alaric's coalition, because this was a period called the migration era, um, where there was so much upheaval and different groups moving to different places and coming into contract conflict with Rome a lot more. Um,

Because and there's there have been lots of different reasons given for why the migration era happened. Some people think it was climate change, like the Huns moving down from like the Central Asian steppe, like all kinds of different things like that. But just like the the sort of like apocalyptic dark horizon of this time period seemed like such a great setting for a romance novel to me.

Yeah, I agree. And as someone who, you know, I'm never one to make things political. Not ever. I almost never talk about current events. I've never heard that before, Liv. Ever. Not about you. Or me. No, no, no. Absolutely not. No. But, you know, what I would say if I was a person who might get political now and then, I would say that, like, yeah, I mean...

This was a time period where this empire that was too big, was unnecessarily big, was big just because they'd wanted to conquer everybody. And then, like, no empire should be that big. Of course, no empire ever since Rome has been that big or that problematic. I think the British Empire would beg to differ, but, you know. That's the joke, Jen. Sorry, sorry. Yeah.

sorry i missed it i think the american empire would also beg to differ but that would also be the joke listen uh listen canada we're coming for you that's exactly right in greenland colonialism is back and still here for safety sorry free palestine um absolutely

We've talked a little bit about Alaric of Visigoths, who is her main hero. I want to delve into Julia. Julia is the female main character. She is very much a hot mess, which I relate to because, hello, you can hear me right now. None of us are hot messes. I don't know what you're talking about. Can you tell us if there were any historical women who you based Julia on? Yeah, so there were three. Um,

So one of my characters that I based Julia on was Julia the Elder. She's perhaps the original kind of template for Julia. She is, of course, the daughter of Augustus. She got exiled to Pandateria for being too slutty. My favorite reason to be exiled. Right. Respect. Yeah.

Well, yeah. Respect. Get yours, girl. So that is kind of my inspiration. Get that Roman D. It was worth it. So that's like my kind of original template for her. The other one is Gala Placidia, who was a princess of Rome during the time of Alaric's sacking.

who was in Rome at the time of the penultimate sack of Rome wound up being taken prisoner or just sort of trailing out of Rome with a bunch of other aristocratic people who had been in there the whole time. So she'd been in the city during the siege. She got mixed up with the Goths, potentially joined them, potentially was kidnapped by them and married a tall, alert, right-hand man. It wasn't just a marriage. Didn't she have the most impressive dowry ever? Yeah.

Yeah, so the dowry that she had, Edward Gibbon goes into this in detail, and I love it. And I want to talk more about, you know, the Gothic culture of jewelry, because I think that really factors in here. So the dowry... Yeah, please tell me about it, as our listeners know.

I'm a big fan of the shiny shinies. Like, if you could throw some jewelry and, like, knowledge about it at me, I'm going to just swoon because I love my jewels. Our girls are mad. I am. Thank you, Liv. If you recall, we actually did talk about this in the Atomic Gold. Excuse me. Excuse me. I talked about this with my co-host. Right. You talked about this. Jennifer R.R. Williams. That's exactly right. I have never talked about this with you. We're still doing that. Okay. So anyway. Yeah. So then you all.

already autistic we are definitely two people we're talking about okay um so anyhow like

The dowry of Gala Placidia. There was a, let me think about this. There was a giant table that was made of one enormous, precious gemstone with 365 legs. And I just, I can't imagine how big this table would have been. Sorry, wait. It must have been a circle, right? I can't, I don't know what the shape of the table was, but imagine carrying that all up and down the Italian peninsula.

But anyway, so there was this giant table and it had potentially 365 legs. Just go with it. And it was made out of one entire precious metal, precious stone encrusted with other precious stones and gems and things. Not the only treasure. There were giant plates.

The early Christians were super into giant plates the size of a wagon wheel that would have been 100 million pounds, like silver and gold. Honestly, the Christians have always been fucking weird. Yeah, there was a lot of that. So I feel like the Goths in particular, there was a tradition where the man gives the woman a dowry.

Right. And a Toph. Yeah. As he should. Because he needs to prove he can take care of me. Not the other way around. But honestly, that is reasonable. Yeah. That's like literally if we have to have a dowry, like that's quite literally how it should be. Cheers. Yeah. Agreed. It also kind of it's an indicator that the woman had more power in the relationship than you would originally think because she gets all this wealth in it.

Do you think that has any bleed over from the ancient like Gallic and Celtic traditions where the woman, whoever brought more into the marriage was the sort of elevated partner because they had more wealth? Well, I think it's different because in the Celtic tradition,

the man and the woman did both bring a dowry and whoever it was kind of, you know, I don't think it always had to be like a competition, but of course in the cattle raid of Cooley between Maeve and Aleel, as everybody knows, it did become one. So that I, that's basically the dowry of Gallop, the city. It was legendary in its time. It wound up being left in a, in a palace somewhere in Spain and then divided up by various Gothic rulers who came in after the Franks got their hands on it.

some other people, maybe the Vandals, I don't know. And people were talking about things from this dowry up until the 700s AD, I believe, or something like that. Yeah. Wow. Famous. And when would this have happened?

When would this dowry have happened? Well, the dowry was a collection of basically booty that Alaric would have collected while sacking Greece and Rome. Okay, so Gallopasidia's dowry was legendary. It happened, it was probably given from a tolf to Gallopasidia, who was a princess, daughter of Rome. One of the inspirations for Julia. Yeah, exactly. Sometime in the 400s AD, and it was still being sold.

It was still being talked about in the 700s AD. That's a long, that's like, you know, what, 300 years in between. They were still talking about how epic this dowry was. Yeah. And dividing it up between themselves. So there was still a lot by the 700s AD. And so who was the third woman? Oh, this is one of my favorites.

Right, so the third woman is Anoria, who is the daughter of Gala Placidia. And what I love about Anoria is that she was going to have an arranged marriage to, I don't know, some asshole that she didn't like. And she did not want to marry that guy. And so what she did...

I adore this so much. It's the best story. It's one of my favorite stories in all of ancient history. Okay, let me tell it. Okay, Jenny Williamson on my podcast, Demanding Things. So she dashed off a letter to Attila the Hun saying, come and get me.

And she basically proposed to him. So Attila the Hun had been sacking, I don't know where he was. He wasn't in Rome yet. I think he was sacking around Greece or whatever, somewhere in Eastern Europe. I'm not sure. I did a whole episode on this where I knew what he was doing, but I don't know. Yeah.

So she dashed off this message. And Attila the Hun immediately used this as a pretext to invade Rome because he was supposed to be engaged to Anoria, which meant that he now was owed half the Roman Empire as some kind of a dowry or inheritance or something like that. So she was Gallop Placidia's daughter. And Attila...

It's really interesting because Gala Placidia, I mean, you can argue about whether Atalth and Gala Placidia was a love match. It's presented that way in a lot of the sources. And I kind of went with that initially when I was doing the research on this because I really love the idea that maybe everything didn't suck for all women all the time. Yeah.

I support that because I don't find that related at all. So I was just like, oh my God, maybe she and Atoll loved each other. Maybe it was just this beautiful love match. But then Atoll got assassinated like two years after they met and she went back to Rome and she married this guy named Constantius who she hated and that's who she had Anoria with. So she was the daughter of Galloplicite and Constantius. But then Anoria also wanted to marry someone she didn't hate. And Galloplicite was like, absolutely not. I'm going to force you to marry this guy. So...

I kind of really love it that Anoria was like, well, my mom got to have a hot affair with like a goth. Maybe I can have a hot affair with a goth. And it wouldn't be that weird to call a hun a goth because the ancient Romans used that word to, you know, kind of describe everybody who they would have categorized as a barbarian at different times.

Was I going to say? Okay, I was going to say, was that like kind of almost a barbarian style term where it just sort of means people who aren't Roman in this context? Absolutely. And also the word Scythian, like they would have called the Huns, the Huns were basically Scythian, you know, horse warriors. Well, I mean,

And in their defense, they were coming from the other side of the Scythians. They're absolutely different people than who the Goths were. But the way that the Romans referred to these different peoples, they would have called them those things interchangeably. So I'm not saying Anoria was thinking of this as like, oh, this is a Goth and that is a Goth. But theoretically, some of the Romans were. But anyway, so she's like, in my head, Anoria was this kind of this rebel, you know, and there's this one period in her life

And this is a precursor to when she sends a message to Attila the Hun to ask him to come and get her, but that really explains a lot to me. And...

So when she was like 15 or 16, she had sex with like her Chamberlain or something and got pregnant with him and got severely punished for it by her parents sending her off to... There's actually conflicting information about where they sent her to. Like it could have been a nunnery. But in the version I like, it's to Constantinople, the Eastern Roman Empire, which at that time was a lot more Christian than...

Which is in Istanbul. Yeah. So she would have been in Constantinople. And at that time, it was a much more Christian and sort of repressive and very pious court where she would have been made to get in line. Right. Like pray a lot and live this very restricted life. And in that time period, there was this time where

when Attila the Hun was bearing down on Constantinople and he was going to sack the city and the walls had been destroyed by an earthquake and all the people like the Huns were like two weeks away they were not very far away and they go very fast on their horses right so like this is an emergency the whole the whole city sorry I just thought you said that they go very fast on their horses they go very fast on their horses this is one of the things

things that made the huns so terrifying is how fast they go. On their horses. Yeah, it's how fast they were able to actually mount a siege and arrive at your city. They weren't technically that good at sieges, but these people didn't know this. So they...

So they were all like the whole city had to rally to rebuild these walls before the Huns got there and burned everything and killed everybody and sacked the city. It's an emergency and everybody had to like come together. And I just imagine Anoria in this time period looking at these walls going up and everybody else around her is praying for the walls to rise and she's praying for Attila to hurry.

because she wants this world burnt down. So I just, that's what like, that's what I imagine about her. And I think I wrote an intro to that episode about that. I mean, I didn't write it. I just am aware that it was written. Yeah, Jennifer R. Williams. I'm just preempting that. So yeah, so that is kind of,

of my sort of little fan fiction about Anoria is that she just felt extremely constrained by the world around her and what they wanted to force her into, including her own mom who got to have her hot affair with a quote-unquote barbarian, so why can't she have one? So she's like, all right, well, I'm going to message Attila and see if he is down to clown. Message Attila. DTF. DTF Attila. Down to clown. Down to clown. Wow. I think

She basically like texted him and she's like, you up?

he's always up so we've talked about some of the real historical figures um who inspired you uh miss williamson can you talk about the tropes readers can expect in any of my dreams i know that previously on our book club i can't talk about um live i can't talk about what you've had on your podcast we've had a lot of things like grumpy and sunshine enemies to lovers i mean i love what can i was already ready before you

What can we expect here? I actually want to ask you guys that too, because I know what the tropes are, but I also, as readers yourselves, what tropes interest you in this book? I mean, I know. So I think of them in a lot of ways of you and I sharing tropes because I wrote my novel. I called it just like a tropey Cupid and Psyche when I first started writing it. So to me, I was just like, how many fun tropes

romance novel tropes can I jam into this novel in a way and so I was kind of noticing yours as we went also because you read my book around the same time as I was reading yours which is fun yeah so I mean I love like I'll go so deep into the tropes but I mean I'll take all of them but the enemies to lovers was pretty great the grumpy sunshine I think also applies except she's not really sunshine but kind of they're both both grumpy and both sunshine maybe in different ways

Yeah. They have their moments of each for both. You definitely have some of my favorite tropes, which are forced proximity, enemies to lovers. Sharing that tent, that horse. Who does

My co-host, Jennifer R.R. William-Soon, who's a very horsey girl. I'm very well established with her. She's a big fan of just one horse, and I think you do that quite well here. You've got quite a bit of horse representation. Thank you. I'm glad you noticed. This isn't a romance trope, but it's one of my favorite tropes you find in fantasy, which is found family, where you find yourself amongst others, and you have a chosen family. I really love how you've done that amongst

your characters. You've got the hero and heroine, but you also have your heroine who, for reasons, decides what she's going to do is, I don't want to say seduce his friends, but definitely, like, encourage his friends to be her friends to aggravate the hero. Like, you have a lot of aggravation. Oh, that's done very well. Yeah, I will say that...

It's almost like I remember that from talking about it with someone, but not you. It couldn't have been me. No, never her. But I mean, and I will say like, and again, this is not a question. This is just me hyping it up. But I, and also mostly I'll admit, this is me hyping it up from the position of, I don't think I could write like this. So I'm jealous. But I do think you're side characters. You're sort of just peripheral. Every character who isn't, you know, Julia and Alaric, like I think...

I think you did them incredibly well in a way that I, yeah, I really enjoyed. And I think that, you know, that's really important, but it also can be rare in works. And so like the twins are the ones I'm thinking of most. Like, I think you really, you did great work on, on like, yeah, the side characters. The twins.

The twins, for those of you who don't know, are in Enemy of My Dreams. Alaric has kind of this adoptive children. He is like a lone wolf and he's got these two cubs. They are named Horsa and Hengist.

And while he is not blood related to them, he sort of raises them from about three until 15 in this book. Yeah. And it's a really great dynamic that you have. The lone wolf and cub you don't get to see a lot. And so it was really great seeing it reflected here in this romance. Thank you.

Also men who, men who have those types of relationships. I think, I mean, I say this a lot that I really prefer fictional men. I am a straight woman who unfortunately just doesn't like real ones all that much. And yeah, so. Yeah, I mean.

Yeah. Yeah. Just, you know, they have, they've never impressed me, but fictional, fictional are great. And I think though that having that kind of relationship, like I think, I think with Alaric, you really, you handled him well in that like he is like big and gruff and scary and hot, but also, you know, in all those good ways, he's like a very endearing, very warm character. And I think that's hard to do sometimes to kind of juggle those. Yeah. I think that for me,

me like you have to I mean there has to be something about masculinity that you love if you're gonna write a hetero romance like there has to be yeah yeah and it's usually not realistic because realistic masculinity is toxic do I want to date a real an actual human man or do I want to date a fictional man written by a woman question mark I mean

that's what I want. I feel like, you know, Alaric to me is a version of something I kind of think of as like sort of, you know, old oak tree masculinity where it's like,

That's lovely. I've never heard that term before, but I really love it. You should coin it. Yeah. Well, I'm doing it now. Like, I kind of see it as like an old, like, you know, grain of wood. Like, it's deep and strong and kind of gnarly and scarred. And you can build furniture out of it. And it's stoic. But, and it's not an asshole. Tall, strong, and silent type, you know? Mm-hmm.

okay so your book is called Enemy of My Dreams and which is one of the greatest titles ever in existence and I I'm so glad you like it yes did I did I tell you the story of how it came about no please tell us maybe but tell it again because now we're on microphone yeah and our list

And again, I've never met you before, so let's keep that moving. Right, so I've never met you before, so you've never heard this story. Exactly. So it took me, I know I've said this many times on mic before, it took me roughly eight years to write this book. But again...

Not on the podcast. I've never been on a podcast. I'm just on various mics. We're an hour and a half in. Jenny, you can't pretend. Just for my hairbrush that I was pretending was a microphone. Yeah, that's exactly right. So I have it took me like eight years to write this book. Like it took me a very, very long time. And the entire time I did not know the title. Didn't know what the title was.

No idea. People would occasionally ask what the title was and I would have a little bit of an anxiety attack because I was like, I don't know. And so finally I was like, right, I have to actually have a title at some point. And so a friend of mine, Erin in New York, she was like, let's do this and we will figure out the title to your book. And I'm like, I don't know, Erin, it's been eight years. I don't know if I'll ever think of a title to this book. And she's like, let's just figure it out. So we went to Drag Brunch.

In my neighborhood. As one always should. I mean, there is so much creativity and their authenticity and just so much to be learned from going to Drag Brunch. I agree. I encourage you all to do it. Yeah, the Drag Brunch was just a font of creativity and really inspiring. And Erin and I had a really good time and thought of this title.

and it was awesome it's it's just like I I think I love it most because my love of romance novels comes from the tropes and the predictability but like in a way that's not predictable you know like I think a lot of people complain about romance novels for those same reasons they're like oh it's you know the the tropes are so you know you see them coming or whatever but it's like

Yes, and that is the joy of it. Like, I love reading a romance novel where I know that I'm going to have this whole wild ride, which with tropes that I find, you know, and like enjoyable. And also, there's going to be a happy ending. And I think that that's the joy of reading romance novels, particularly romance.

When the world is on fire is like, I would like to know that there's just going to be nice things. And if they're slightly predictable, I'm so down. Yeah, I think so too. Like, I think that, you know, I, when I wrote my book, I wasn't thinking about what tropes I was using. I just kind of wrote it and then figured it out backwards. Well, you wrote it as,

somebody who and again I've never met you before but I know somehow just through knowledge about you as an author that like you grew up reading goddess rivers and those very specific types of romance novels and so I think that comes so naturally yeah I was gonna say this title to me evokes a lot of those like

early 90s, 80s, like Ashes in the Wind and like really bodice rippery historical fiction. And I love that because I don't think we're seeing that as much in romance anymore. Like I agree. I love it in historical. I mean, I love reading a good historical novel I can fall into. And this really evoked that for me and was that for me without those

really problematic aspects. I did enjoy that there was consent here and that it wasn't... But sexy consent. It is very sexy consent and I think you did that really well and you also handled one of my least favorite tropes which is like

a jealous older woman, uh, of a younger heroine. I think you really turned that on its head. You had two female characters. I remember it so well now. You had two female characters who were vying for the male's lead and one was slightly older and one was our heroine or hot mess, Julia. And you actually did a really good job of turning this trope of like female jealousy over one male, um,

on its head and I just have to commend you for that. Oh, thank you so much.

Yeah, I think that I'm going to tackle those two things separately because they're two different things. I think that one of the things that I really wanted to do in this book was have a book where it kind of did feel like the sort of, you know, vast sweeping historical romances that I read when I was a kid, which I'm sure a lot of romance fans that are listening right now maybe got their start on. You know, like there are a lot of those from like the 90s, the 80s. They're very bodice rippery.

There's a lot of dubious consent in those and non-consent in those. And for me, I was just like, you know, I want to write a book that's like that, that feels like that, but where the sex is all consensual. And like, I wanted it to be like that without losing the combativeness, you know, like. And the smuttiness, the spice of it, you know, I feel like that's one of those things that. Like, it's not a conflict.

a kinder gentler romance you know like there's still that like there's still that combativeness but everything is consensual and like I wanted to keep that excitement you know of that like Jenny now okay this is something I would have said to you when I first started reading your book and it's just brought it back to me now hearing you talk about it this way because you know as somebody who also has been working on writing smut admittedly yeah

But who didn't come to it from that like older bodice rippery time. Do you remember how I phrased it when I told you how I described your smut? Because I think it was like... I don't remember. It was like elevated smut or something like that where I just think your prose is so lovely that you write like classy smut in a way where I was like...

not um and i don't know this isn't really a question but i just generally like i'm jealous of your pros i think is is part of it so now i'm just fawning over you how does that feel keep doing it oh good great it would make me so uncomfortable which is why i love it i'm glad to hear your neurotypicalness um really helps you in that situation you know oh you did great honestly

So let's talk about enemies to lovers, which I've heard is your favorite trope. I mean, I just read it in your bio on your website. So can you talk a little bit about the enemies to lovers trope and why it's such an enduring trope? Um,

I really love it because I really love that conflict. You know, like it really feels when you have a good enemies to lovers situation going like the passion is there from the beginning. And it's just like you can turn it as an author from angry passion to a sexy passion. And there's very little daylight between the two. Yeah. So I feel like it already rocket fuels your relationship if they hate each other on site. You know what I mean? But in a sexy way.

Oh, yeah. I feel like all my favorite books, like romance books, start that way.

And I think it's, you know, there's a lot to debate between what is like, what is enemies to lovers versus like rivals or whatever, all those different things. Yeah. I think yours is legit. It's legit enemies. Political, cultural, like enemies. Exactly. And that's like the more, it's kind of like a rubber band, you know, like the further apart you put them at the beginning, the more they snap into each other. Like. God, you're good at phrases like that. What a great metaphor. Yeah. What a spicy metaphor, right? Yeah.

Super spicy, because really what I want to do is watch them collide into each other, like two freight trains exploding. They didn't have freight trains...

I think maybe like a couple of carriages. Yeah, something that explodes. I don't know. Pick your image. Pick your flammable image. This is in your imagination. You're not actually harming any wildlife or people or anything. This is fictional. So yeah. That's the fun of fiction. Exactly. So it's about that explosive moment when they collide, shall we say? And the more you pull them back...

Right, I know. The more you pull them back in the beginning, the more they snap into each other and explode. That's what I love about enemies to lovers. So Liv, on our book club, we've talked, on the Fangirl book club, we've talked a lot about what is more difficult to write, either a sex scene or a fight scene. Oh, God. So Jenny, we wanted to know what you find more difficult to write, a sex scene or a fight scene.

I have real thoughts on this. I know you do. I also know my co-host does. What a coincidence. Coincidence. They might be similar thoughts, but I don't know. I've never met her. Not similar people, though. That's totally different. No, we've been in the same room together.

Not a coincidence. So, right. So, sex scenes and fight scenes. So, I really feel like a sex scene is the canary in the coal mine of your romance novel. Like, if I am writing the rest of the romance novel and I get to the sex scene and I'm having trouble writing it, it means that I haven't set my scaffolding right and I have to go back and fix it. Wow, that's such a smart way of phrasing it. It is. I'm really jealous of your brain. Thanks. But it's also like...

I'm so jealous. I'm so jealous of that. I'd be like, sorry, go ahead. But I love sex scenes in that way because I feel like I can really tell if I'm doing it right if I can hit the sex scene and it just flows right out of me, you know? Oh, I love that for you. Flows right out of me. Not the same for me.

If anything is going to flow right out of me, it's going to be the sex scene. Because I love writing sex scenes. It is my favorite thing in the world. I love it so much. If this was video, I'd be pulling at my collar, which I am. But you can't tell. If you could see me, I would be very red. And also, sex scenes are... We're just all blushing. Sex scenes are difficult for me from my very Catholic upbringing, where I'm like, how red do I turn while writing it? The redder, the better. I think the Catholics love to fuck. Oh, they absolutely love to fuck. They just like...

If you're not deeply embarrassing yourself, you're doing it wrong. Exactly. We must atone for it. We must go to confession and tell a priest who's supposed to be celibate all the naughty, dirty things we did, which is also hot. That's its own fetish, Jen. I'm aware. So,

So anyway, okay, I'm talking about me. Yo, excuse me, excuse me, we're talking about you. Yeah, we're talking about me. It's all about me. Yeah. Sorry, author. We didn't mean to derail you. It's not about the Jeebus of us all. That's all I'm going to say. Okay, so... We broke live.

We're all broken on this podcast. Anyway, I was going to talk about fight scenes now. Please. Versus sex scenes. Yeah, which is harder. Okay, so sex scenes are really fun. Sex scenes are super fun. There should be many sex scenes in all books. But I enjoy sex scenes and I enjoy writing them. And fight scenes...

I think they were harder for me to learn how to do, but then I was watching anime, right? And I was watching a kind of, you know, sword fighty anime, and I realized that there's two... Castlevania. Yeah, I realized that there were two types of sword fighty anime. There is the sword fighty anime where they really animate all phases of a fight where you see everything that happens, and then there's the one where it's just they run at each other, and then it's like some kind of explosion. What?

And then one of them is cut in half and you don't know what happened. And I was just like, you know, I don't think I need to know everything that happens in the fight scene to write the fight scene. I think I can really gloss over it and give it an action sheen. And it really, there's a lot of verisimilitude there. So I tried that as a tactic. What an awesome,

author that you can just throw in verisimilitude as a word that you just said. I know. It's almost like you're a published author. I've never heard of one of those because what a word. It's almost like I'm a professional word monger. Honestly, a word smith even. I've described myself as a smut monger and a high-end smut monger in the past and I think I'm going to go with that. Yes, a purveyor of high-end smut. That's exactly right. A purveyor of high-end smut, yes. So I think that like

So I tried that and nobody commented on it. So I think that's what I'm going to be doing until further notice. Honestly, like, I mean, I feel like maybe this is just my writing is that I'm incredibly insecure, which is also true. But it's weird. I'm like, oh, I can write.

I can write nonfiction. I can write about the myths in a nonfiction style to the ends of the earth. I'm fucking brilliant as shit. But then fiction? You've written two books and a very long introduction to a third. I've written a cookbook and a regular book with my co-host, Jennifer R.R. William Soon. Who is not me. Just to be clear. That's exactly right. We've never met you before.

But once you get to fiction, it does feel a little more intimate. It's the fucking worst. I'm like terrible. And then I read Jenny's and I just remember the first I read the first chapter. And then I was like, I don't know that I can keep reading this while I'm still working on my own because I was like, your prose is so pretty. You're fucking poet in your goddamn words. I'm so mad about it. And I'm so like, blah, blah, blah. This is what happens. Yeah.

and then but thankfully yeah this is how i describe myself yes we're all there but i then i i just got i got deeper into yours and i mean it was it was great but it's funny that you say that about the the fight scenes and i'm i mean kind of re like you're just taking it in again now having heard you describe it that way because i mean your fight scenes were great and it's so hard it's so hard to write that and especially because you were dealing with like a

We're not talking like a one on one fight like a lot of romantic or fantasy broadly. We're talking like Rome fall of the Roman Empire battles that you wrote. Well, and I'm jealous is all that I'm saying.

And you wrote them well from both a historical aspect being like, okay, this is an occasionally true story. Some things might have been fabricated or moved around, but in general they were very historically to the time and sort of the military regime accurate, but also they flowed within the context of a romance or romantic novel, which is really hard to do. I know I couldn't do that personally. Thank you

probably could. No, no, you don't have to give me prayers. I'm going to pump myself up in a minute. I mean, I just feel like, you know, yeah, you could. I mean, I feel like, you

you know the hardcore military history and or you know martial arts nerds will probably vociferously disagree with me on this well those would be angry dudes who are going to love the book regardless so fuck them not reading this book to be clear absolutely I feel like you can you can

give it that gloss of verisimilitude if you just sort of understand the type of period. She's just throwing in the word again like a fucking scholar. I know. Like a boss. I'm sorry, saying it twice is like way too much verisimilitude. It's just too much. I had a whole point about that and it's about like

I don't know, just making it real. But you don't have to know every single step of the fight to do that. And sometimes it's better if you don't. No, but that's true. It's so easy to overthink those things, right? Right, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And to get lost in the details of sort of a fight sequence or even like a...

like a sex scene. Like there's a certain amount of detail we want and there's a certain amount that takes us out of the feels in a sex scene or even in a fight scene. And I think you thread that needle very well. So I have to commend you. But I have a question. Well, I think that there's one more thing I want to say. Excuse me. There's one more thing I want to say. Okay, say it and then I will say what I want to say. Yeah, there's one more thing I want to say about both fight scenes and sex scenes that I think is really important is that both of them are about a relationship.

Both the sex scene and the fight scene are about a relationship between two people or however many people are in the scene.

having the sex or the fight, right? So, like, it's really about those emotional stakes. And I think that's more important, especially in the fight scene. I think this is less true in the sex scene, but depending on how you write it, maybe can be true in the sex scene, too. It's, like, less important than each and every step being spelled out perfectly is that what is the relationship between these two people and what are the dynamics and how do they change throughout the scene? And what are the stakes? Stakes are also key. This is...

this is where I think that I'm fascinated by your mind. So just to be clear, because I'm legitimately as a writer interested in how you phrased that.

Because you said that it was less important for the sex scene about the emotional relationships and more important for the fight scene. No, sorry. Like, less important in terms of, like, the emotional relationship is super important for both. The emotional aspect of it is more important than step-by-step exactly what happens. And in

Both? Absolutely. I just love that. That's interesting. And it's maybe like, it might be slightly more important, the step-by-step exactly what happens part in the sex scene, but I might be overthinking that, you know? Okay. So I'm going to ask...

I think two more questions and then I think I can wrap this up for my side. I don't know about you, Liv. I think my first thing is like, and I'm going to ask all three of us, what is your favorite trope that can be combined with enemies to lovers? Mine is like two people, one bed. I love it when people are forced to share a bed who don't want to share a bed together for whatever reasons. And obviously intimacy occurs. Okay. Yeah.

Do you want me to go next? Go ahead. All right. Yes, and then Liv. So I don't know if this is a favorite trope or just a favorite one that I'm really into in general. I love it in terms of enemies to lovers. I don't know if this is a trope or like a general thing, but like when people... So didn't know they're dating...

And I've talked about this before. I just read a romance called The Last Hour of Gan about a woman who falls in love with an alien lizard man. Naturally. It is extremely hot. The idea of two people who...

don't understand each other and their communication is so bad, even though their sex is extremely hot, that one of them literally thinks they're married and the other one has no fucking clue, just delights me on so many levels. Like, it delights me. It delights me...

Because the one who doesn't know is questioning the relationship still when the other one is like, what are you talking about? We're married. Like, we are solid. And then you just, like, as the insecure one, just fall into that certainty. And I find that beautiful. Agree. Wow. Yeah. Agree. I think mine is kind of similar to yours. And I don't know about describing it as, like, a singular trope. But I love, like, everything you were describing. And I think I...

I love sort of the, how to phrase it? Like the kind of, like when one person knows things the other one doesn't. Yeah. And then the reader knows all or like has an idea of kind of what's going on and you know that like

The one of the characters like thinks they hate this person or whatever. Right. And then, you know, all of these things that like, oh, no, there's like so much going on in the background. Right. I don't know. That's a poorly described trope. But.

I completely get it. I completely get it. I know what you mean. It's where one person has sort of this extra knowledge about the other one. Like they might know their secret identity or all the good deeds they do, like donating to like a children's library or a children's hospital. And the other one thinks that they're an asshole or whatever. And so once they uncover that secret side. That's the Jen who really likes the sort of, you know, golden retriever-y thing. I love it.

Jenny and I are both like, why is he in a library like your go-to? I don't know. Jenny, you're like, we're like darker, more fucked up people. I find out he's even more fucked up and then I'm into it. No, I mean, that's possible. Like, fuck,

He puts a gun up your badge and you're here for it. Just don't pull the trigger. No, it's like for me what it is and it's like undisclosed information but for me what and Libby you can tell us which one is closer for you because now I'm curious but I'm going to tell you mine. Well, you've read my novel. I think I know the answer. My, my,

Prime example of this trope is when it's an enemies to lovers. And it's like we have a beloved, right? A character. Usually it's the woman, but depending on who it is, it could be anybody really. But let's go with the heroine who's like, oh, I think he really hates me. Like, why is he so standoffish and cold and stoic and whatnot? And it turns out that he's like.

He's like holding himself back because he's so obsessed with her. But also he's been doing all these things behind the scenes to protect her and blah, blah, blah. Like that is what makes me swoon. I think that's what we both wrote. So that is the Mr. Darcy of the like Pride and Prejudice. That's unsurprising. I can't remember which one it is. Hand flex moment where he can't show his emotions. Excuse me. That's the 2007 Pride and Prejudice.

Pride and Prejudice. So the 2007 Pride and Prejudice, which Liv has just correctly... Starring Keira Knightley and what's-his-name-who-played-Mr. Darcy. You're welcome. Yes. Matthew McFadden. What's-his-name-who-played-Mr. Darcy. Matthew McFadden. Hang on. So it's this moment where he can't show his emotions, so instead of showing it, he does this sort of hand-clench flex. I love that trope. It's a gorgeous trope. It's like this moment of lost control. Right? Yeah. That's

But also like he wants to show this emotion, but he can't. So it's like the slightest hint that there's something more going on. If you were paying just if you're the reader and you were paying the most attention, you could find it or the viewer in this case. But like the actual heroine is like, I don't know, he unclenched his fist. What does that mean? It means he's completely lost himself. But just for a moment, because she's so incredibly sensual.

That's what it means. Anyway, Liv, which one do you think we'll do? I don't know. I think we're maybe all fans of romance novels and movies and books. That's fine. I think so. Yeah. All right. So my final question for you, Ms. Williamson, is you have these- Not to be confused with R.R. Williams soon. No, we don't want to confuse the two. I've literally never met you guys before. No, I-

It's weird we get along so well. I don't quite know what to do with it, but who's to say? So you build these incredible worlds and you do such an amazing job of, you know, sculpting these landscapes and these characters and writing is a very lonely business. Do you have any beta readers or like...

maybe someone who hosts a podcast about mythology or a co-host of another ancient history podcast who are there to pump you up and build your community and let you know that you're on the right track. I mean, yeah, but you have never met those people. Fair, fair. I would not know who those perfect people were. These people would be nobody that you have met, either one of you. It's almost like somebody

sounded like they were fishing for like something but I don't know what that could be because we've never met I can't imagine what you might be asking me none of us have ever met that's right

So once upon a time in, I don't know, eight years ago, me and my co-host were doing this thing called NaNoWriMo, which you should not do because they scan all of your stuff when you upload it to AI. Don't do it. Do they? Really? Problematic. Yes. Fuck off. The NaNo is now problematic. Yeah. There's something about grooming. It's, I don't know. It's a weird, weird rabbit hole. I don't know anything about it except that it's fucked up. Oh. Wow. We do not. We do not.

Okay. Me and my co-host, before we'd even started this podcast, were trying to write novels. I think that here's, I think this is the moment we maybe break down the incredibly realistic wall. You know, I know that we've convinced everyone. I know. I know that. So I want to- No one's been told, but- We do know each other. We do. Plot twist, we do know each other. Whoa.

How I remember this book coming about is about eight years ago during NaNoWriMo. My dear friend, Jenny Williamson, was writing a novel about ancient Rome. And she was in Paris at the time. And I was in London coming over to visit her in Paris. And I was also writing something about ancient Rome. It never got finished. But her novel has gone on to be this incredible, amazing debut. And I think it's really important that we get to know each other.

And I just want to talk about how incredible it is that you followed through on this. And it's become this really big thing. Congratulations. Thank you so much. We're really fucking proud of you. We are so fucking proud. Because, spoilers, we have known you all this time. Weird, I know. Oh, my God. We have known you. So, yes, both of you have been very involved in this book. Yes.

Jen has been helping me sort of shepherd this book into existence since, I don't know, I conceived of it a million years ago. And Liv. It's a beautiful book. I did very well. Liv came in about halfway through. I remember us being extremely drunk on a patio, not a patio, a balcony in Rome. In Greece. Was it in Greece? It would have been Greece. It was not Rome. It was in Greece. I don't know who you think you are.

But bringing Rome into this unnecessarily is offensive. Was it Liz's balcony? No, it was yours, you nerds. Was it mine? Was it our little one? Well, it depends. On the big one? It was yours, you nerd. Well, that was...

such a lip thing to say drank a shit ton of rose and facetimed Jen on her way to Athens and that was from your balcony and then Jen showed up and she'd gone shopping or something or am I conflating two different times I might be I'm not sure I heard gun shopping and maybe that's just

I was like, look, y'all, I might be in the South, but I don't buy guns. I'm going to leave that there, uncommented on gun shopping. Jen did say y'all at one point. She did. I know. She went full South. I remember trying to tell Liv about my book and being like, no, I can't tell you about it. No, you wouldn't share. I mean, I remember you mentioning the book from day one. I was very embarrassed.

I was very embarrassed about it. And then it turned out that Liv was a huge freak like me. And then I... And me. She, you know, was totally into our freakishness as we've discovered. And, you know, I also shared my book with Liv and shared other things with Liv that are embarrassing. And...

I mean, that's friendship, but I appreciate you putting it on the podcast. That is friendship. That is friendship, yes, indeed. On so many levels now that I'm like, I was thinking of one specific thing, but now I'm like, oh no, it's actually everything. Oh God, which one was it? Literally.

knows everything she knows all the things so yes and thank you so much both of you for being in this journey with me because it's been a journey it has been a journey no I love it and it's been a pleasure yeah

I so remember you like I remember the first time we talked which again to the listeners who've been fooled this whole time you know but like we met and I think it had to have been around April it was early pandemic so I think it had to be April so we're nearing our four year anniversary and

I mean, I'm sure we've talked about it on an episode before, but like when we all tried, we recorded your Dionysus episode fine, right? And then I think that that was pre-pandemic. That's what it was, is that your Dionysus episode was pre-pandemic. And then by the time we talked to

together again for my Dido episode. It was like April 2020 and we were all losing our minds and we ended up. And I will say Liv, the big caveat here is I was in London, Jenny was in New York. Yeah, and I was in the West Coast. And Liv was on the West Coast of Canada. So the time zones were so extreme. I was eight hours off from you, Jen, and Jenny was in the middle. Yeah.

And we all decided to start drinking at the same time because we just met each other and we were like, we got on really, really well. I don't want to say. Yeah. And we were like, let's have some wine. And I was like, sure. It's whatever hour here in the UK, but I'm now freelance. Let's do it. And by the time, how many,

hours did we know I honestly think we spent like six plus I feel like by the time I swear we so we would have been in Pacific time and I swear we started at like 3 p.m. and finished at like 11 Pacific which was then like that's like 2 a.m. you Eastern and then another so at 7 a.m. oh yeah no Jen you I swear you were like the sun is coming up I think I

I think I was. And it was just so, it was so funny. And then we, you know, went off from there. But like, I think that original time we talked, like I remember hearing about this novel and I was like, I would read it. And you were like, Jen is the only one who could read it. It's, you know, and it,

But it's really good. It's better than anything I have written. No, and I was so down. You should share it. I had also been working on a book since 2009. So it was obvious. Like, I understood. Like, you had your own baby, you know? Like, I feel like so many of us have that, you know, thing that we've been working on for a million years. And it's like, none shall pass. Like, I have to be very protective of this. And I've just never. Yeah. Sorry. I'm so proud of you is what I was going to say. But then I cut you off to say I'm so proud of you.

Thank you so much. I'm so grateful that both of you have been so in it with me. I really treasure that. I mean, it's been really fun to be along and to like, yeah, to just watch you get this deal and like just all of it. It's so nice. Yeah. Oh, it's...

It's one of the great joys of my life to see this happen for you. And I'm so incredibly proud of you. And I know that our listeners will also really enjoy this novel and be proud of you and happy for you. They've heard about it since our first episode. And I feel like this is the novel that, for me, brought me through a lot of really hard times that I haven't really

Thank you so much.

enjoy it and see that you know sexy darkness but also the brightness that's there too congratulations thank you so much and i think that like podcast listeners can be included in this circle you know because absolutely they've been hearing about it since almost our first episode it was like our third episode maybe about our third i think yeah or fourth or i'm i forget yeah

I think it was actually a little bit because we did all this stuff about the siege and, you know, the Praetorian Guard and things. And then we got into the Alaric stuff. Like it might've been like our seventh, but it was the first one I wrote. Yeah. And it's, it's just incredible. And we're so happy for you. And yeah,

I don't know when exactly this is going to drop in our book club, but Enemy of My Dreams will be out in hardback, e-book, and it's in audio. If, like me, you really enjoy hearing the world brought to life, it's got an incredible narrator. Liv, did she send you the audio? Yes, I forgot about that until this moment. Yes. Yes. I remember picking them out, helping. Help me pick out an audio narrator.

So that will be... That's coming. I think it's dropping at the same time. I'm not 100% sure on that, but I think so. It will be. It's the same time. You don't have to worry. It's the same time. Yeah. No, I just...

Yeah, I mean, I feel the same as Jen. And just to keep it light and silly, because I don't know how to be quite serious entirely. I just have to say that while Jen was saying all those beautiful, lovely things to one of her oldest friends, her dog did come up and show us his butthole just directly on the screen. Oh, it wasn't his dick. That's good. Yeah, you know, he likes to mix it up. But, you know, he got he got comfy after, but he made it quite clear.

I didn't see that because my face was in my recording room. Yeah, you know, I just... Yeah, I have the privilege of that. He just, you know, he came up onto the couch and he just showed it off. That's all. Had to. He's behaved very well.

What can you do? You can do nothing but appreciate the show. So I do want to say a couple things as we close out. Jenny, your author photo was taken by Liv in the ruins of Rome. You two had a beautiful trip. I think it was last year. Yeah, it was like this time last year. We were there right now.

Last year, I was in Rome. I was figuring out what I was doing, outlining the second book in the Enemy of My Dreams duology. And Liv was really instrumental in that. And there was a point where we... I was grieving my entire life. I'm glad I was helpful for you. We both were in a certain point. It's okay. I was having a full-on... Oh, I know. I've never cried more in front of another human. We were doing great.

awesome it was a great the beginning of 2024 was rough the end was also rough we were doing awesome and I was frolicking amidst the ruins and Liv was taking my picture laughing

One of us was doing the best of all three of us. But she was along for the ride. So, yeah. So, yeah, Liv took your author photo. I think a friend of yours helped with your website. I don't know. She's kind of lame. Yeah. She's super lame. It's fine. We've already given up. She's very self-aggrandizing. It's Jen. She's incredible. You did a super good job on my website. I could not have done that website without you.

But I try to help. But anyway, and it lives pictures did make it easier. But what I wanted to close out with is saying that your book will be out on February 4th in hardback ebook and audio. It's coming out from Canary Street Press. Where can people find you on social media? OK, so my website at the moment. So my website is Jenny Williamson author dot com.

I am on Instagram for the moment at Jenny freaking Williamson. I have a blue sky account. It's Jenny Williamson. I have not posted anything on it as of right now. I'm also trying to get back on there. Let's go because the rest of social media is falling apart at the seams. Right. Absolutely. So anyway, yeah, I,

Like I said, Twitter not usable. Facebook and Instagram and threads turns out are no longer fact checking and are now assholes who permit hate speech. So I don't know. So I am on Instagram still at Jenny freaking Williamson. I would say that is where I'm most active. I don't know that that will always be where I'm most active. I...

have a blue sky account which i hope to post more on that will be jenny williamson um oh yeah i have a newsletter um if you go to my website jennywilliamsonauthor.com that is on there and i happen to have a podcast and the podcast is ancient history fangirl whoa

reveal not the one not one of the ones you might be listening to right now potentially we're on this and also on Liv's podcast and um and if you've never heard Jenny in my podcast what the fuck are you doing right yeah you know so it will come to it will come as a surprise to nobody that I I also have a podcast with Jen called Ancient History Fangirl that Liv has been on a bunch and um you know and will be on a bunch in the future right and you can find me there

Thank you so much, Jenny Williamson and Liv, for being on the podcast. As always, you can find Ancient History Fangirl on Instagram at ancienthistoryfangirl. We're also on Facebook. It's mainly updates. And we are on, I don't know, TikTok if it exists. We're in flux like everybody else. We're also...

We're on threads and blue sky as ancient history. Fangirl live. What about your incredible podcast? Where can people find you? I also have a podcast. It's mostly called let's talk about myths, baby. And I'm also on all of those places. Again, the only one I'm really active on is Instagram, but then a piece of shit. Zuckerberg did piece of shit stuff. So now I'm in the air. It's just almost like we should,

eat all the billionaires, you know? Yeah. We will be back at some point in time, either weekly or biweekly. And we appreciate you listening. And Jenny's book is out now or will be out very shortly. If it's not out yet, please preorder. And if it is out, go into your local bookstore or library or wherever you get your books and pick up a copy. It is so spicy. I mean, if you're listening to the audio, put those headphones

headphones in you don't want to be caught when you know that scene happens or maybe you do and that's your thing and I'm not judging thank you so much for listening and we will see you whenever we see you next thank you