Hermes Historia: Homer, have you heard of him? Pretty chill dude
52:24 Share

Catch Jon Stewart back in action on The Daily Show and in your ears with The Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. From his hilarious satirical takes on today's politics and entertainment to the unique voices of correspondents and contributors, it's your perfect companion to stay on top of what's happening now. Plus, you'll get special content just for podcast listeners.

like in-depth interviews and a roundup of the week's top headlines. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadow. Join me, Danny Trejo, and step into the flames of right.

An anthology podcast of modern day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturnal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Welcome to the Criminalia Podcast. I'm Maria Tremarcki. And I'm Holly Frey. Together, we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime. Each season, we explore a new theme from poisoners to art thieves. We uncover the secrets of history's most interesting figures, from legal injustices to body snatching. And tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in cocktails and mocktails inspired by each story.

Listen to Criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you want to see into the future? Do you want to understand an invisible force that's shaping your life? Do you want to experience the frontiers of what makes us human? On Tech Stuff, we travel from the mines of Congo to the surface of Mars, from conversations with Nobel Prize winners to the depths of TikTok, to ask burning questions about technology, from

From high tech to low culture and everywhere in between, join us. Listen to Tech Stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, listeners. I still don't fully know how I open these episodes. I'm Liv. This is Michaela. Hi. Doesn't she sound thrilled to be here? It's Sunday. Okay.

And we are here with another episode of Hermes Historia, which we missed an entire month of them because I moved across the country and Michaela, you know, is like off getting an education. It's benefiting the show. That's what matters. Your Greek is going to be so good. But now we are back. We're trying to get back into a regular schedule. So naturally we started like the week before Christmas because that's the right time to get back into a schedule.

Especially when you have ADHD. It's perfect timing if I'm being honest and not at all facetious. But here we are. I'm excited about this episode. She and I have been talking for the last hour and a half straight. So we're already a little loopy. And I am so ready to hear what you have for us this week, Mikayla. You know, this week I...

Is it Krampus? No! I love Krampus. It wouldn't be Krampus. He can come by my place anytime he wants is what I'm saying. But this, I had two prepared for November but then we were busy. We'll get to them, right?

Great. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, this is going to be one of them. We're just not going to do the other one. I'm just going to save that for January. Perfect. That's what I meant. Yeah. That's what we want. It'll come to the future. It'll come. This one is a Christmas gift to me.

And I guess everyone else, but it's mostly for me. I am. I've got, I've got my guests, but I don't know how to drill down my guests because we couldn't do, you could write it down on a piece of paper. No, no. Oh, I just mean, my guess is so wide ranging that it couldn't be just one episode. So no, but it could be beginnings. Yeah.

I'm ready. This one also, you are, it's less going to be me telling you so much, but it's going to be a conversation, you and me, and it's going to end with the present. And it's so much fun. Okay. We're going to talk about Homer. Oh, not Alcubierre. Okay. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Well, that's what I thought based on your reaction, but fine. Have you stopped your love for him? Never. God, I love that book. I know. That's why I thought it was going to be him because he was a Christmas gift for you. He's such an idiot. Was that naturally a Christmas gift?

Well, spoilers. So we're going to talk about Homer, Homeric tradition and its reception within antiquity. Oh, got it. Yes. And there is a reason to this and it will come at the end of that is the present. The present is at the end. You must stick around. Is it present in both forms of the word? No. Okay. I don't think so. I mean, you know what? Like now and also present like a gift. It's Sunday. I don't understand. Yeah.

I mean, English is weird. Go ahead. Go ahead. Homer is a pretty big deal. And the Homeric tradition is pretty big deal. That's just the first line. Homer is a pretty big deal. He's a big deal. I don't know if you've heard. I gotta get myself started somewhere. He's a pretty big deal. The thing with Homer that I like to... Homer is a pretty big deal. Homer, have you heard of him? Pretty chill dude. Yeah.

So Homer was the thing that I think about a lot is he was often like almost like a history book to the ancient Greeks. This was where they came from. Yeah. And it was also like all they had as a history. So like imagine. Yeah. It was a way to understand their place within, you know, like the wider Mediterranean world and also where a lot of their cultural morals came from.

Good and bad. Arate. How do you even translate arate? I have conversations with this with my Greek professor and I'm like, can I just put arate? And she was like, then how do I know if you know the word? I'm like, but it's untranslatable. She's like, just put excellence and be done with it. And I'm like, careful. I don't want to. Oh.

Because it's so much more than that. It's a cultural concept that is not easily translatable. Anyway. That sounds like, I mean, because I don't know enough Greek, but it sounds like if I was to try to fully explain Xenia. Yeah. Like, just in English, you'll never fully understand. Like, we cannot fully comprehend the weight of Xenia. Yeah.

Yeah. And there's stuff like that in the English language too, that is hard to translate into other languages. Yeah. And it's true. Well, the language is so contextual. Yeah. Yeah. And the language is so tied to culture. So this is why it's nice to read things in their original text, but I also understand that it's a huge barrier for some people. Yeah. Some of us aren't, you know, don't just get A pluses on all of our Greek exams. I don't know how I do it. Okay. Well, I go in without studying. Every time she tells me, every time she says live, oh,

oh my gosh, I just did my Greek exam. I didn't get to study at all. I finished it in about a third of the time. And I got a hundred percent. That happened once. Your life is so difficult, Michaela. You have so much trouble learning.

To be fair, I'm a year ahead in Latin, so I understand the grammar. Oh, to be fair, you're a year ahead in Latin. Anyway, so for Homer, it was an artificial story that was constructed through a long oral tradition until it was put down towards. So this is...

It's nebulous. You've talked about this. Homer as a concept is nebulous. Was he one guy? Was he many guys? Was he people? Who was he? He was a dude. He was this fine fellow with a nice face. He was just a head. I honestly don't believe that Homer was one real guy. I'm holding a little statue up for Michaela now. That's helpful. If I don't believe that he was

but I still have like a real attachment to the like bust that we know of as Homer today. He just, he looks like a guy I would like to listen to. I would like to listen to him tell a story with his like plucking at his liar. Yeah.

So the homeless tales were also an important part of education for the people of Greece as it was something, you know, your children, you would children, the upper class men would read. You mean the girls weren't allowed? No, women aren't allowed to be smart. Are you kidding? Well, no. You phrased that poorly, Michaela. The issue is not that they're not allowed to be smart. It's that women have no brains within their little heads and they need to just say it

Save all of their energy for the loom. Women are glorified children that need to be cared and led. Stay inside the house where you won't get into any trouble. At least you're avoiding the sun, and we all know the sun is evil. Except for that it gives you vitamin D. Well, so it makes you happy, but it will kill you. But it, yeah. Anyway. This is coming from one of us who's better at sunscreen. Fine. Just always showing off. Dude.

I, it's better at sunscreen. Really good at ancient Greek a year ahead in Latin. We get it. Michaela never had a sunburn in my life. Oh, well, even when I wasn't, you're not a white lady. No, you win this one. Not any other one. White people win everything except the war against the sun. Oh my God. I love it.

So another fun thing is people often found ways to tie their own family to figures from Homer and myth in general. You know, we were talking about it in the divination one where like divine divinatory sort of families would be like, we come from, you know, Tiresias, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

um this happened my my name is alexandra so naturally um paris alexandros is my ancestor like i don't know how else to tell you alex no no no not big l no not big l alexandros not that he was a particularly cool guy to be connected to but he was more interesting than big l yeah

I mean, I think so because it was fictional. Because I think Homeric storytelling is always more interesting than history, but like whatever. That's so fair. I just find it a continually fascinating man because I don't think he had a plan. What did you? Sorry, this is a divergence for the listeners as if this whole episode isn't. But to you all, we're recording this right after our episode Battle of the Bastards. It would have come out probably, I don't know, last week or the week before when this does.

so you can get a better sense of why this is the way it is. But I will just pull back to you recently sent an email to one of your profs that included me. We won't get into the details on this, but I need you to remind me what you called Alexander the Great.

Alex the okay. Yes. Thank you. She wrote this episode and it was, you know, to her prof who she clearly had a great relationship with. And it was just one of those joyful things to be like CC'd on because she just had this like incredibly intellectual and like highbrow things to say about the historical record and all of this. But then amongst that, she just said Alex the okay, as if it was fully interchangeable. And I needed to know that. I just,

That's life, man. Yeah. He was pretty okay. That's all I'm saying. I'm not going to call him great. You were correct. Thank you. I just appreciate the casual nature with which you will call him Alex the Okay and expect that everyone understands what you're talking about. I don't know how much you've actually talked about the oral tradition as a practice. I've had very intelligent guests come and do that for me.

So it's a difficult thing to trace, not least because, you know, we don't have any actual... Because it's the oral source. Yeah. It's like saying the mystery cults are just so mysterious. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that was the point. I think the biggest thing when you are trying to... Oh, God, I'm putting on chapstick like a man. I can't do that. No, you got to do the... Just full... Yeah, that's how they do it. Anyways. To understand oral tradition...

you kind of have to be steeped in it. You have to go experience it because I think in the Western world and Western traditions, we're very removed from orality and how stories are told and passed down that it's, and we're much more kind of steeped in written word. So,

We kind of. It's really difficult to conceptualize the difference. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like I'm really lucky because I was kind of in both worlds growing up where I, you know, I was a huge book nerd growing up, but also I'd be at ceremony and I hear stories from elders and get to sit at, you know, sit at their feet and listen to these stories. So I kind of got the best of both worlds. And yeah.

You also got defense against the sun in the process. It sounds like a big win. Look, sunscreen is important. As somebody who's just third, fourth generation colonizer with literally nothing more that I can look back on except that my family apparently landed in quote unquote Canada in the 1700s.

You know, we just don't have a lot. So I respect that. SPF 15, just slather it on you. I should be wearing some. I have a window right there. Look really Mediterranean when I get a bit of a color, you know? I can hide the level of colonial white lady that I am. But skin cancer can kill you. Yeah, yeah.

So we can't actually... We don't actually know at all what these stories were because we weren't there. We didn't get to hear the Ayodhoy sing these songs and actually hear which things are concrete and which things are not. Because the thing with these...

the stories is we read the Iliad now and we say, oh, this thing is this and that is fact, you know, like. Like this is in the Iliad and this is not like our concrete things we can say and conceptualize now. But how do we know this was actually something that was part of the story versus something that could be

moved around and be more interchangeable with other details. So yeah,

Let alone what ended up in the final result that was recorded for historical purposes. Because, yeah, these things could have been shifting and changing per audience. But then also on top of all of that, we have the, okay, well, when the Athenians wrote it down, what the fuck were they doing with it? And what ended up in our version today that we can't separate? But they might have been like, well, absolutely.

is more important. Like we're going to change this or whatever. And what is the motive? What is, why is this detail important versus why is it not? So like, these are the things with about orality and oral tradition. So like, I know they've, they've done studies on people and like, Ooh, closer to the Mediterranean. I don't remember where right now, but they've gone and listened to oral storytellers who can hold these really intense, long stories.

like that are as long as the Iliad and the Odyssey in their brain. And they're, they try to understand why. And it's because of things that we see in the text, such as like, like certain set phrases, you know, these things. Similes. The similes always get me as a good example for that. Like the volume of similes. Epithet. Just, yeah.

this guy did all of these things a bazillion years ago. Just so Achilles fought a river. And then he goes on and it's like, thus says Agamemnon, lord of, yeah, whatever. But it's the same phrases. I'm just so jealous that you know so much ancient Greek off the top of your head. So

So there's set phrases that like they, these poets don't have to think about. Like they, there are things that you can just say and it fills space so that your brain has time to think up the story as you're going along. Epithets are in that set, set phrases. Like I said, little,

tidbits that are just, you know, you'll read the Iliad and you'll be like, why was that important? And it wasn't. It was important for the poet so that they had time to actually think of what they were going to say next and throw it in. Do you think that those are equivalent to like what I just did? Like... To like... Yeah. To like... Oh, I love that idea. Yeah. It's just...

It holds space so that your brain can have time. And so likely also, you know, there are set points that happen to set plot points that have to happen in each story, right?

So certain things like maybe Patroclus always has to die. Or maybe not Patroclus always has to die, but something has to happen to Patroclus so that Achilles goes crazy. Because this is a story about Maenon. The rage of Achilles. Yeah. You know, we need Achilles to go Barcos. We need Achilles to be pulled out of the war. We need something to pull him back in. This person has to die.

But how it happens, who does it, sort of those little details, those are a bit more flexible. And you can change versus which audience you have. So, you know, if you're going to be in a...

you know, maybe you're in Ionia along the Ionian coast. Wow. In the, you know, Asia minor and Australia. Thank you so much. Maybe you're there and those people you're closer to where Troy may have actually been, or the Trojans may have actually been, you don't want to be going in there and you don't want to be, you know, you want to be,

Making a story that's more accessible. That they would like more. You're not going to amp up all the Achaeans. Because you're going to be more interested. In amping up the Troad or whatever. Because that's where you are. They're going to be all like yay. That's us. Versus you go on into the Peloponnese.

and suddenly you're just like whoa yeah go Achaeans hell yeah look at them going they're so powerful those evil others you know like there's things it's nebulous and things change and that's why we have so many different things it's contextual I love that yeah like it is entirely based on

the context of, of when something is being performed. And, but the, the performer too is such an interesting thing to think about. Yeah. But, and, but like, I'm thinking more of the, the performer on their internal side, like, yes, their performance, they would want, you know, to do all these things for the audience, but also just on a personal level of the performer, like they are, like,

It reminds me, I did the Q&A I did earlier this week at the time of recording this. You know, someone asked me about translations and like just how much can a translation alter the work itself? And it's like completely and also not at all. And also a little bit here or there maybe or whatever. But like every single thing about a translation, because it is the same as a person reading the text originally, like everything about translation

a human being taking in a story, a work of art is completely, completely contextualized. It is based in where, but everything personal about them, about their preferences or the way their brain works, like all of these different things that would apply to like, yeah, the storytelling process in the first place, let alone,

As it all came down to us later. And there is, at least my opinion, I think there is no way for people to remove bias when they are writing things or interacting with things or be telling things. It's why I think AI is terrifying. Well, terrifying, bullshit, fucking, absolutely, we should not be giving it any time. But also, like,

Even if it wasn't all of those things, it's why I think that AI will literally never reach any kind of real artistic anything. It will never mirror anything about the ancient world, say, specifically. Because every single thing

Is so inherently tied to it being interpreted by a human fucking being. Yeah. Anyway, down with the robots. So it's also important to know who is your performer. And like, I think like there was probably famous, uh,

poets or the iodo these are the iodos the bards yeah he's the bard he's the one who's singing and telling the story and I bet there was famous ones where they were like oh you know have you seen this guy's you know have you seen Megacles' performance of this thing versus have you seen I can't think of any other names

Homer, let's pretend he was just one of them. Homer, have we seen? Homeros. He always does it like this. And that guy always has this point of view. And I really like, oh, I really like the way this guy presents these aspects of the way he talks about nature and his things. Like, oh, I love the nature imagery.

Every performer would have their own bias and it would also seep into their performance no matter where they were. They could be tailoring it to their individual audience, but they could also still be having their personal touch in it, which is important. And then the other thing of it all is the meter. This was done in a specific meter. It's called dactylic hexameter. It was six units of long, short, short. The last unit would be two syllables. And the meter is actually...

incredibly helpful for the poets because it gives them a structure to exist within to tell their story and it's very rhythmic and you can hear it and you really if you can if you I can't do it in the Greek I'm very bad at it oh look at you can I try some yeah go for it because I picked up so I I

I recently found a couple of lobes, which just to the listeners have the Greek on one side and the English on the other, which is so fun. But I figured out that the person who had had it before they'd scanned a little bit, not like just little bits of it here and there. So I can leave them. I know, but they did it. No, it's great because they did it for me. I'm never going to do it. And they did the first line. So, yeah.

I probably didn't do that great with the actual... And with a... So...

Oh god, I'm not even going to try. But polytropon is one of my favorite words. It's a comp... Polytropon. Polyflusbos. How about that? Okay.

Polythrofon. Polyphobos is a word my Greek professor said to me, you don't ever have to remember this, and now I can't forget it. Many... It's an onomatopoeia, for one. Oh, an ancient onomatopoeia! It describes the sea, so like polyphobos thalassa.

And it basically like loud thundering, loud boring. Yeah. It's that like, it's, you know, when it's during a seesaw and that whoosh, it's kind of bit, that's what that is. And I think it only appears in Homer. Yeah. And so there's no reason to remember it. And yes, I can never forget it. Polly Flores. I love it.

John Stewart is back at The Daily Show, and he's bringing his signature wit and insight straight to your ears with The Daily Show Ears Edition Podcast. Dive into John's unique take on the biggest topics in politics, entertainment, sports, and more. Joined by the sharp voices of the show's correspondents and contributors.

And with extended interviews and exclusive weekly headline roundups, this podcast gives you content you won't find anywhere else. Ready to laugh and stay informed? Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter Nocturnum, Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora.

An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time.

Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of my Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Welcome to the Criminalia Podcast. I'm Maria Tremarcki. And I'm Holly Frey. Together, we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime. Each season, we explore a new theme, everything from poisoners and pirates to art thieves and snake oil products and those who made and sold them. We uncover the stories and secrets of some of history's most compelling criminal figures, including a man who built a submarine as a getaway vehicle. Yep, that's right.

That's a fact. We also look at what kinds of societal forces were at play at the time of the crime, from legal injustices to the ethics of body snatching, to see what, if anything, might look different through today's perspective. And be sure to tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in custom-made cocktails and mocktails inspired by the stories.

There's one for every story we tell. Listen to Criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, that's like Politropon, I think, is one of those ones that it's... I don't think it probably appears in too many places because it's so specific to Odysseus. Yeah, it's the complicated, it's the... Yeah, well, it came up in a recent... The Q&A I did because it's like... Over the years, it's been...

I think the most, the clearest, like, literal translation of it would be... There was two different... I forget who did which, but, like, one did polythropon as many ways. Yeah. And also many turns. And so, like, they're both, like, literal translations, but they don't really mean anything in English. And so that's why it's, to me, more interesting than, yeah, Emily Wilson did the complicated, which is such a, like...

It's one of those things. It is like we were saying with the arete and whatnot. It's a word that just does not have... It doesn't have an English equivalent. So you will always have to... The translator's inherent humanity, whatever bias you want to associate, but it's just the nature of being a person, will always have to come in because a word like that just does not have an English equivalent. The men got so mad when she said complicated because they like...

put some kind of negative association with it. But like, the word complicated does not have to have a negative association. Like it literally, okay, it's like, oh, you don't like complicated, but a man of many turns would be better. Like which one means more in English? Spoilers, it's complicated. Because polytropon is a complicated goddamn word. Why can't I find it in my dictionary? Where am I? Poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi. I know. Palm. Okay, but pom, pom,

Where is Lambda? I'll do this later. That was what I really do like about our two Homeric texts. The first word tells you everything you need to know about the story. In the Odyssey, Andron, man. This is what the story is about. Man. And Iliad.

uh, main and rage. This is what it is. That rage. It is that wrath. It is that uncontrollable sort of, you can't, it's, it's that emotion. It's, it's, I love rage for it. That's my favorite one for it. But anyways, yeah. Back to more Homer. Yeah.

Oh, where was I? So we know that these stories existed all over the Greek mainland. It existed all over the Aegean. It existed all over the Near East and beyond. People. The Greeks were not the first to do it. No, no, no. People moving. This is I love morality and I love.

Following myths and stories and finding the little tidbits that connect because I love that idea of going to a new place and someone tells you a story. Yeah. And what about it hits your heart? Because stories are so human.

And it's not in the details, but it's in the sort of the wash that's underneath of the what is that that touches you and makes you go, oh, oh, that reminds me of this. Or that feels like home. Yeah. And people were doing this. It's where it's like it gets complicated. Now we have, you know, really complicated things about like original intellectual property.

theft or copyright broadly or a lot of people talk about appropriation. They're like, oh, they took this from this thing. And they'll say that about antiquity too where I've seen people say things like, oh, the Epic of Gilgamesh doesn't get enough credit and these people were just appropriating from that. And I'm like, you've got to stop there. There's a really big difference between appropriation and inspiration. And what we're seeing is

people moving and connecting with each other. And that is really wonderful. And in a way that they are connecting with each other through story, they're going, Oh, let me tell you this epic about my, about my thing. And then they hear that. And there's a part of it that, that really rings true. And so when they go and they tell a new story to their family member or their community, they bring a little piece of that in. And that's,

That fills my heart with warmth because it's so human. And I think me coming from such an oral culture too, where that was such a big part of my growing up and why I fell in love with Greek myths is, you know, my sister found a book of Greek myths. And I remember sitting on her bedroom floor and she was standing on her bed and she was telling me these stories about...

about, you know, the story I remember the most was her telling me the story of Perseus. And that's only because Perseus' mom's name is Danae. My sister is Danae. That's

That's my sister's name. And I just remember her telling me the story in the way that our elders told us stories. And that like, that is what got me so excited. Cause I was like, Oh my God, I understand this. Yeah. And it feels familiar and like home and there's bits of it that are, they ring true to me. And to me, that's the most human thing about it too. It's why I love the ancient Greek world. Like I didn't grow up with that, that storytelling aspect, but like, to me, all of those things are,

And the way that people do you still use it today? Like, that's what makes it so human. And again, why I use it also as an example to like fucking hate on AI, because we'll just literally never have that humanity. That is what makes this stuff human.

good. It's what makes it interesting is that it's being interpreted by humans. Yeah. And I think that's the really lovely thing about Homer and when you really got to kind of sink your teeth into is understanding and kind of letting the canon of it drop away. The texts that we have

okay, this is what was written down, but where did this come from? And then you also have to, you know, I was saying earlier how this was sort of like a history for them. It was how they understood their place within the wider Mediterranean. Why is that? Okay. So now we're seeing that human connection that these people had, especially your earlier periods. I'm not so much classical later, like, you know, society changes, but like having that, um,

that that connection and that heart in it and when you see why it was important to people why it stuck around it that it just reminds me of when we did the bronze age episode because that came up or episodes because that came up so much of like the way that yeah like the the homeric tradition was their history and the way they used it to connect with their past you know even when that passed you know we know archaeologically speaking like

Did not have those connections to the story of the Iliad. But that doesn't change anything about the way that the individual people of the ancient world used it as a way to connect with their history. And I find Greece especially interesting in that aspect because you have the early Iron Age, right? Where there is in Greece generally...

There is such loss that I think is not seen elsewhere in the Mediterranean. And will they have like a full language shift? Yeah. Well, because like Linear B is still Greek, but it's with syllabic scripts. And then they get the Phoenician writing and that changes into the Greek that we know. But it's... Let's just gonna say, I just wanna, because I think that these days I can't hear you.

hear anything without making that connection. So I just want to remind all of the listeners that Lebanon, the ancient people of Lebanon, the gave up

as a Western world. They gave us the alphabet. They gave like literally there would not be English. There would not be our letters today if it weren't for the people of ancient Lebanon and the idea of calling it greater Israel just because the West wants to is fucking hot nonsense. Oh my God. Israel has bombed Lebanon so many times in our lifetime, let alone in the last hundred years. And I just think

I just, I need us all to remember that when we say Phoenician. Yeah. We mean Lebanon. Yeah. Yeah. Tear, tear the, the home of the ancient Phoenicians and the alphabet and Cadmus and everybody in between Lebanon, uh, Israel bombed tear. And it needs you all to know that because we need to be just. Yep. Okay. Sorry. Hi.

So West is awesome. You know, like the collapse hit the entire Mediterranean. Yeah. But I think I find it especially interesting to think of Homer and the collapse and the Bronze Age and sort of that period because Greece was hit very hard. And they kind of... Gaza was not, which is on all of the maps of the Bronze Age collapse just because I've already gone there. Just everyone, they want to Google a map of the Bronze Age collapse. You want to know one of the most ancient words on there? It's Gaza. And so like...

When you have such a collapse that happens, you get almost sort of like culturally disconnected to the point where they couldn't understand, you know, how did the people we came from

build these things because we can't do that yeah so there's this big disconnect in greece yeah so then you have these stories that talk about oh look at these things that our people did you know like we we battled this huge war with people across the waters and we won

And it's like, it becomes a thing where you go, oh, this is our history. It connects you to your land and your space in a way. And I, you know, there's always the big question, like, did a Trojan War happen? And I think, yes, there was war. A war. A war. Nothing to that degree. No. But yeah, there was always war. There was no 10-year war. No, exactly. There was no 10-year war.

The gods were not involved. Spoilers. Sorry to break it to you. But it just...

it connects you to yourself and it creates culture and it creates community. And another way that this happens is through family groups. So like, I think of like the Spartan Kings who were the, the Heraclidae, right? Like they're, they're two family lines. They had the dual Kings. Each family line was from one of the, one of two of Heracles' sons.

And that was their claim to their standing within their community is, oh, yeah, we can have this power. Our family can have this power because we're the sons of Heracles. Like, of course, we should have this. And so that becomes really important is people find ways to tie themselves and their families to characters from the past. And if we even go all the way to like fucking Rome, man, like who is the eventual emperor? The eventual emperor.

he was a king I have all these qualms about Rome and all I'm going to say is they fucking hated kings and yet they had them and Augustus was just a king in a different name and I don't care what anyone says that's what anyways this no but please this is not the time for me to get into this rant but I've been I haven't had a chance to talk to you about it but I saw gladiator 2 and I need you to know that they call him the prince of Rome

I would like you to know I haven't seen it yet. Great. Well, they call somebody the Prince of Rome as a good thing, as a, like, this long-lived, like, the true Prince of Rome kind of thing. Well, and I think because it's Caracalla and Gaeta. Yeah, but they are not the Princes of Rome. I won't spoil the rest. But, like, yeah. That's so much later in, like, that's what, 3rd century, I think it is? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's, like, they're so...

Caracalla and Gaeta, who are the children of a Syrian and a Tunisian, or rather Libyan, sorry. Syrian and a Libyan are the whitest boys from quite, quite, quite Britain. They're the palest of the lily white. Anyway. Also, there were great whites in the Coliseum. Don't worry about it. It's fine. Great whites. Not just sharks, Makayla. That was where my two passions...

came together. Because if there's anything I love... Yes, exactly. If there's anything I love as much as antiquity, it's sharks. And when I tell you I saw great whites in there and I said, you know, it would be silly to have... I mean, it would be absurd to have any sharks in the Coliseum. But the idea of picking the one

The one species of sharks that to this day, in the year of our bullshit 2024, we have never had a great white kept in captivity. But oh no, please, they put them in the fucking Coliseum. I always like, I'm so curious. We haven't figured out why. It just never works. They're too big and awesome.

I mean, we've kept whales in antiquity. Sorry, we've kept whales in captivity. Yeah, but they're mammals. They're easier to predict. I know. Anyways, science is fascinating. It makes me very happy. And so I'll continually ingest things from scientists. But I will not do the research myself. The thing you will learn from scientists, and I can tell you right now as a non-scientist, they didn't have great whites in the Coliseum. Sorry. I know. Spoilers! But I want there to be. Look, I...

I don't need Gladiator 2 to be accurate. I need it to be campy. I need it to be ridiculous. It was very enjoyable. I could talk to you about it more, but I'll never get over the great whites in the Coliseum. We can have fun. Also, the fact that everything was just so fucking white. Anyway. Yeah, I mean, that's just media, though. No, but it was that they also, yeah, like, again, they just, nobody can figure out to put color on ancient. Yeah, that's all. Oh, yeah. Not even the people. Yeah, I just mean the complete lack of polychromy. I love the polychromy.

I know. So pretty. Oh, so you went to the thing at the mat. Yeah. Didn't you? Yeah. I hate you. I'm so jealous. We were talking about family ties. Yeah. You know, like people do this. Sorry. I brought us so off track. Oh my God. It's all my fault.

Like, okay, so here we go. Like on Kiosk himself, the island, there was a family group called the Homeridae who claimed descent from Homer, you know? It's a way that aristocratic families use to explain their position within history.

And I'm absolutely certain this happens all around the world today. Oh, yeah. It's just like, I'm from this. Well, think about the way Americans hold on to the idea of being like, my family was on the Mayflower or something stupid, right? I like the, oh, my great-great-grandmother was a Cherokee princess. And I'm like, we didn't have those, but okay. Rome didn't have kings either, but...

The amount of rage I feel about that. They're like, no, it's not. It's not. And I'm like, what do you call the one? And then they call him. What's it? This is me just being, I haven't been in the woman mindset for a while. Delightfully. It's so fun though. But one of the names, it means like the first among men. I'm like, what is that? But a king, you motherfuckers.

Well, Alexandros means like defender of men, but it's not a king. So, you know. That's just a name. Well, yeah, but. It's just the name. Philip is, loves horses. Right. Naturally. And then my favorite city in antiquity, Philippopolis. Philippopolis.

horse lover horses horse love horse more no less oh the city of philip oh got it this is the city of horse loving philip though if you want to go to bucephalus had its own city bucephalus something like that i need everyone to know that uh i have been playing the sims and if you get a horse one of the auto-generated names one of the only ones that is not like some silly horse name is bucephalus and i was like that is a joke for a very select few people and i support you i love this thank you i had to go tell dina and i'm

I was like, you didn't get this joke, but FYI, I was there. It was pretty funny. So I'll now give my gift to...

Great. I think this episode was your gift to me because it's utterly unhinged. It's all Homer. It's entirely my fault. It's just thinking about orality and oral tradition and what Homer means to the people of Greece and ending with this nice little, you know, it's how people made ties and explained their positions in society. And all this is because I found one bit of information that came from one old, old, old classical like dictionary of names that I cannot find its source for. So I cannot say

speak to this actual credibility, but I would like to believe in my heart that it's true. So there's my caveat. This comes from an old source, but I love it so much that I don't care. I'm ready. I support you. So, as Liv knows and you all are about to find out now, I have an immense love for the Alchemyonidae.

They are my favorite family. Can you explain that more? The Alcmaeonidae are a group of aristocrats in Attica and the Peloponnese. They had members such as the children of Alcmaeus. Alcmaeus, something like that. And it's, you know, Pericles was an Alcmaeonidae. Oh, got it. I was expecting it to only be Alcibiades. No, no, Alcibiades is an Alcmaeus.

Yeah. Pericles too. Oh, we'll get there. I'll tell you after. I will tell you right now. My best boy. Best disaster boy. Number one disaster boy. Alcibiades. He's an Alcmaeonidae. And the Alcmaeonidae claim they come from the family of the Naledi who stem from Nellius. Yeah. Who was the father of Nestor.

Oh, wow. They're going all the way. I was going to say like, that's coming. I can tell it's Nellius and I was going to forget who, of course, but of course he's a father of Nestor. So they claim descent from Nestor. That's a fucking stretch guys. That's a stretch.

I just think that who do I claim to be descendant from? Aspasia. Let's go with her. You want to be Aspasia? Who do I want? Yeah. I would like to be claimed to be descendant of Aspasia. Not Pericles as the dad, though. Somebody else. I don't love his brainchild. It's not worked out well. It's complicated. I'm still trying to... Who would I be?

I think that maybe you would be a descendant from... Yeah, or at least from the Alcmodidai. Chaos! Chaos! It might... Yeah, just maybe. I love that man. But anyway, they say they come from Nestor. The long line of Nestor ends with Alcibiades.

poor Nestor this would be so much funnier once I finish all the other Elf Pylons I episode yeah well the point is guys that it's a fucking hot mess so the idea of just having a hot mess family descended from Nestor is kind of rude because he was like pretty objectively okay I will say I will say I don't think the whole family is a hot mess I think El Cibiatis is the end result and he's the hot mess this is what happens when you have oh hell yeah

This is what happens when you have too much, you know, you have it too easy in life. No, it's too easy in life. You get Alcibiades. But those two things are tied. Having power and having it too easy in life. Because the Elfmaionidae, I will say, huge family in Athenian history. And they're really interesting. And they do a lot of things. And they're just utterly fascinating. And they always...

I mean, we'll get more into it later in another episode. But they always are blamed for when things go wrong in Athens, which I find fascinating. I mean, me too, but I know so little. I only know that part of that is that Alcibiades didn't actually go around and chip off all the dicks of all the Herms. And that's too bad because I like that claim. Yeah. Well, I think...

that is the end of a very long history they like even before all of that like they were the idea that your family's very long history ends with you being accused of chipping all the dicks off the herms in athens is like pretty great defecting twice attempting an oligarchic coup you know he was a wild guy i love sicily expedition went so well for him it went so well for the athens there he didn't

didn't even get there okay famously successful expedition i love it so much it makes me so happy well i'm i don't know honestly like i can say these things with confidence but only because i know these like little bits and pieces so i'm i'm quite excited to actually learn the details because i really i mean i really leave it to other people to teach me the history stuff so that i can like live in the mythology and i so i'm ready i'm ready yeah we'll we'll go chronologically

From the beginning. And when we get to the end. Are we going to begin with Nellius? No, you can do Nellius. All right. I can't even. He had a son. He doesn't come up as anything except that, like, historically they say, I think he was in another big war, but it's really just that it's Nestor, son of Nellius, like throughout the Iliad. He had a son. That was his claim to fame. Nellius' claim to fame was that he was Nestor's father, I think, for the most part. Good for him. Good for him.

Ta-da. There you go. That ends with the Elchmey on an eye. I'm excited. I am excited.

Well, listeners, slowly but surely, these episodes will become, I won't say less unhinged because I think that this is the fun way, but I will be better prepared to keep myself on track as we keep going. We'll figure out a good time to record. Yeah, we're still learning this whole new time zone thing, and I'm still learning to get into a space where my brain wants to sound smart because...

Just turns out that sometimes it's really fun to live in a realm where you don't have to be intelligent at all. Yeah, I feel that. Yeah. You know, I just, I feel like I just need a little bit of that for a little while. Honestly. Safe.

But in the meantime, oh my god, the oral tradition is one of my favorite things. And I'm so excited for you to tell me all about this fucking family. Not least because I'm excited for you to get to feature your guy. Because he's so funny. He is my favorite. And one day I'll get my back piece of him done. And it will be beautiful. And people will go, why? And I'll go, why not? What do you mean, why? Why not?

I have a flaming chicken on my arm, man. Did you think I'd do anything? I have a classic heart with a banner that just says Aragorn. Sometimes we just need to have fun. Sometimes you just got to get a silly tattoo because it makes you so happy. Sometimes you just got to put extra love of Aragorn. I realized recently that it's like just so directly next to my like enormous side piece of the hilt of Narsil too. And I was like, wow, like you really used one hard at first.

with this man. No regrets. Just commit. Just commit. Everyone's worth it. I understand. I didn't love him when I was younger. I'll say that. Oh, no, neither because I was young and thought Legolas. Yeah, exactly. And my mom turned to me and she looked and she go, you will grow up and you will understand why I love Eric Orton. She was right. I remember watching it as an adult and I was like, oh shit, Nancy was right again. Like,

why is this woman consistently right oh it's almost like when you're young older people tell you that you'll understand more when you're older and that's like the most fucking infuriating thing to hear when you're young and then you keep getting old and you're like oh it was completely true my mother was right she did the same thing with buffy i said angel and she went no michaela spike you'll understand now i'm older i'm like oh i understand what

I don't know. I didn't go full spike. I don't know. I'm not there. I get it. I get it. I get it. I get it. Anyways. Thank you all to the listeners for listening to this. This is, we are truly, I mean, December is a wild enough time without us both. Michaela's just been in finals. I just moved across the country and I'm trying to be intelligent again.

And, you know, sometimes we just got to rant and ramble about our favorite topics. And that's what the oral tradition is because it's the fucking best. I honestly could hear it and or talk about it forever. Yeah. It's endless. So I'm going to finish this off with, again, me trying to read the first line of the Odyssey because it feels cool.

And I know I do not know the meter very well.

But I still want to try. I'll give you the Iliad. I'll give you Iliad. Do it. Do it. Wowza.

You went a little further. Well, now... Oh, I'm not going to try. I just looked at a couple and I'm like, oh...

I know that now, right, your brain, I do need a little more time to sound those out. I've not been learning like Michaela. To be fair, I've been going through the Iliad so much. Yeah. Thus it ends with. Well, and mine is reading with just me being physically able to pronounce them, not because I actually know the words. I just went to the end. Thus the plan of Zeus was completed. Dun, dun, dun.

Thank you all for listening. Let's talk about Miss Baby was written and produced, not was not written and produced by me. That's just what I say. Michaela wrote this shit. And I don't need to read the rest of the credits. Thank you all so fucking much for listening. Select music in this episode was by Luke Chaos. I don't know. Tell your friends. I am Liv and I love this shit. And Michaela. I'm here too and don't know how this became.

We have to go with a better one. But until then, it's hilarious. Jon Stewart is back at The Daily Show and he's bringing his signature wit and insight straight to your ears with The Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. Dive into Jon's unique take on the biggest topics in politics, entertainment, sports, and more. Joined by the sharp voices of the show's correspondents and contributors.

And with extended interviews and exclusive weekly headline roundups, this podcast gives you content you won't find anywhere else. Ready to laugh and stay informed? Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadow. Join me, Danny Trejo, and step into the flames of fright.

An anthology podcast of modern day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturnal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Welcome to the Criminalia Podcast. I'm Maria Tremarcki. And I'm Holly Frey. Together, we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime. Each season, we explore a new theme from poisoners to art thieves. We uncover the secrets of history's most interesting figures, from legal injustices to body snatching. And tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in cocktails and mocktails inspired by each story. Listen to the story of a woman who was killed in a car accident.

Listen to Criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you want to see into the future? Do you want to understand an invisible force that's shaping your life? Do you want to experience the frontiers of what makes us human? On Tech Stuff, we travel from the mines of Congo to the surface of Mars, from conversations with Nobel Prize winners to the depths of TikTok, to ask burning questions about technology, from

from high-tech to low-culture and everywhere in between. Join us. Listen to Tech Stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. ♪