Odysseus, Man or Monster? The EPIC (!!) Takeover w/ Christie Vogler
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hmm let's talk about myths baby and this is your host christy vogler taking over because i want to talk about something very special today and singing my singing my theme song better than i like no i mean you could like hold a tune it's pretty rude do you know sometimes people tell me that i can't sing and i'm like

duh no no it sounds good i love jamming out to your opening song every time i feel like it's this point is that i can't sing and that's fine you know but sometimes people are like oh she thinks she's good and i'm like i do not and that's fine that's the point my friends but no so today today you know we didn't christy's here but christy's not here to just like talk about medicine like she normally would and like sound all smart and shit i mean i'm sure she will also still sound smart but we were talking about i would say a little bit more fun fun stuff today

Yeah. Yeah, we're doing my other interest today, which is the classical world in pop media. So yeah, something I do with Movies We Dig. It's great. Now, I wonder if we had, oh, I wish I had the number. Do you remember how many comments that post got? 129 as of this morning. Thank you. So I wonder what 129 of you have so recently posted.

Wow. I mean, on the comments on that post, I'm just I'm leading up to it. I mean, everyone's seen the word in the episode title, but we're still going to like really play it low. But if you, you know, somewhat recently responded to an Instagram post that I made, even though actually Christy made the graphic, but that I posted about a certain musical thing.

That I would say, you know, I always take in Q&A questions, right, for episodes. And for the last two years, I would say that Epic the Musical, I said the words Epic the Musical, has been mentioned in those Q&As like,

I would say it's usually like twice a month at least that I get. I mean, maybe more like either like a DM or a question or just have you heard of it? I believe it's even been in the Discord server we have for my patrons. And I just love it because everyone is finding it again and asking me about it. And I have been that incredibly disappointing host who has never talked about it until now.

Now, kind of. Kind of. Kind of. Yeah. Like, you're going to get a small dose of it today, right? Because as I have learned, I am an Achilles girly, whatever, but I hear you're a good old-fashioned Odysseus girly. You know, he is historically my main man, even if he's also simultaneously my problematic fave. Yeah.

He's very problematic in this too. Although they do sanitize him. And I'm sure maybe at some point we'll get to be part of that discussion. But do we at some point say the title of what the show is going to be? Oh, of the episode? Do we say that now? Not yet. Not yet. Okay. I'm still learning.

Okay, so this is the point where I was thinking, okay, so you were right earlier. We should have said the title when you said it. So I think we should record it and then you can slot it in right after you said like, is this where we say the title and pretend that I didn't say no. Okay. Odysseus, man or monster? The epic takeover. That's perfect. That was my movie theater or my trailer voice. Oh, I could tell if you're for it.

You jump right in. Because the real thing that's happening today is that Christy is taking over. Christy is taking over this podcast. Because I don't want to. Yeah, Liv, tell us. Tell us.

You know, the people have demanded it. I went on, I counted all the comments. I tallied them up to keep track of which song we're going to listen to today. And my God, the number of people who said all of it. I'm like, you people are not helping. Did you read the post? Which I also forgot to include the second slide where you were like, choose carefully. And so instead it was just like one slide. It was beautiful. The one. Yeah, no, it's good.

It's good. We got what we needed because some people would go back and reply to their own comment, be like, all of them, but this one, if there's only one.

I, it was so nice to see how thrilled people are. I hope they're not disappointed by the volume of which I will or will not listen to today. But you, along with some very special guests will, will listen to all of it or have listened to all of it. We'll talk about all of it. And that's what matters. I think we've all listened to all of it repeatedly already. So like,

I, I'm going to be like holding back from singing along to some of these suggested songs that you'll be listening to. It'll be very good. The number one song that got picked is like, good choice, y'all. Good job. I do appreciate it. So yeah, Liv, can you speak a little bit more about why it's kind of difficult for you to talk about Epic Musical or some of these other songs?

you know, pop media receptions of the ancient world. Thank you, Christy. I would love to. So this is the thing I've kind of talked about in and out on especially Q&A episodes because people ask me about these pieces of reception so often and I am so thrilled that they exist. However, the thing about spending the last eight years making talking about Greek mythology my full-time job is that while I love it more than anything, it also means that now every time I want to take in a piece of

Like, you know, something about Greek mythology, either a retelling or this musical, you know, everything. Even Lore Olympus, which I have read most of, to be clear. But, you know, I'm asked all the time and I love that. It's so exciting. But the thing is, it's become work. It's become work. And...

In a way that like, I love my work, but when it comes to stuff like this, I find at this point, I overthink and I lose the ability to enjoy it because even when I'm reading like a novel, say, or listening to something like this, like,

I just overthink. So it's like every single thing, every single choice that they've made mythologically, like screams loudly in my head for me to think about it. And that's not even to say like criticize or anything, just to think about every single choice they've made and wonder like, hmm.

Now, why would they now why did they choose to do it that way? Or why did they choose to leave this out? Or, you know, and obviously, there's also lots of times where I'm like, maybe annoyed by a choice or excited by a choice. But either way, it just means that like, every single tiny bit of it makes my brain work so hard. Yeah, it's like, no longer a relaxing activity. And so yeah, it just becomes and also I have that like, I think it's that what is it called? It's like ADHD symptom of like,

It's demand avoidance, but there's a word that comes before pathological demand avoidance, which is that the other biggest issue is that once I have had 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 plus listeners really excitedly tell me I need to take in this thing, it becomes like impossible, impossible because it's so much pressure. It's so much pressure for me to like it or just take it in in the way that they want and like,

I also don't want to ever come to a piece of reception and tear it down. Sometimes that's just like what it comes, what comes out if I'm trying to talk something through, particularly if I don't have a guest, you know, like if it's just me talking, it's like, I'm just telling people like what they got right or wrong. And like, that's not really helpful or enjoyable. And I don't, I am, I am so, so, so, so, so cognizant of never talking back.

badly about someone's art ever because they don't deserve it even if I don't like it but I have too big of a platform like I don't I have any problem with other people doing it like do what you need to do but like my platform is large enough that I I never want to

bring down anything that is talking about the ancient world and so it's one of those like if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all and that doesn't apply to epic it's just like sort of a general understanding with me when it comes to like taking in that stuff so I've been really fighting also there's something about this is full-on admission but there's something about the like because it's been ongoing throughout being released right for like two years I went looking back for like the first time that somebody told me to listen to it it's like at least two years

And so there's also just something about being told by so many people to listen to a thing over so long that now it's almost become like, like a per it's a personal like thing that I'm like, no, I don't have to listen to any of it. And that way I can at least say I haven't listened to any of it, which is changing today slash. But, you know, we're getting into the next question. I had one of those and it was Indiana Jones. Like as an archaeologist, everyone assumed I had watched Indiana Jones growing up. And I'm like, no, no.

Laura Croft, Angelina Jolie. I had my archaeologist. And so if it wasn't for our podcast, Movies We Dig, and forcing myself to watch it, I would have never watched them because it was just not a thing. And I kept being told it's something I should watch as an archaeologist. So I totally get that. And I also get the whole having to watch something

Yeah.

loved it like like they they could allow themselves to not get hung up on like historical inaccuracies and anything like that and funny thing is like i don't care about the historical inaccuracies i hate the messaging which is very anti-woman amongst many other things and i could not enjoy it because literally the only female character the only two were killed via arrow to the heart both

And I'm like, how can any woman sit in a theater and just enjoy this? Like, love Denzel. No. And so I definitely get, like, you want to be able to enjoy things. But when you've been doing this for so long...

I watch things that have nothing to do with the ancient world or myth. And I like start to connect. It's like, but how could it, how could this be connected to myth? Exactly. Or like somebody named somebody else Eurydice one time. And I'm like, Ooh, so what are we doing with like, what have you done? And a lot of times it's like, they just like the name. Yeah. And then that also becomes like a frustration where I'm like, but there's so much in a name and you've made so many choices and, you know, and it's like,

Or you also get this. This one's just hilarious. And it comes back to the other piece of reception that I have never interacted with. And which I'm asked about all the time. And that's Percy Jackson. That one comes down more to I know that one comes down more to like I was like 18 when it came out. I just never got into it. And now again, like I'm just not going to. That's fine. I love that people love it. That's so great. But it also spawns like so the one bad review I will literally never forget ever is.

is the person who gave me a bad review saying I was just ripping off Percy Jackson. Okay.

And by that, they meant Greek mythology. Like they're in their knowledge bank. Percy Jackson invented Greek mythology. And so you get also these things where it's like sometimes if you interact with reception in that way, you're I mean, I think that's also that's I think an issue, not an issue with reception, but an issue with the way that people then take it in. Like there's also a whole volume of people now who only know the Odyssey through epic.

And, like, that's great that they're now interacting with the Odyssey. But we all, like, I don't know. It opens up so many questions, I guess, on, like, you know, what comes out of that. Yeah. We're definitely going to talk about that. I'm going to talk about that with the guests that are going to, like, fully unpack the show. And if you guys listen to Movies We Dig, we've already covered Epic the Musical as well. So we've got a lot of thoughts there. So...

it's evergreen. There's so much to talk about. There's so much to enjoy. And I'm really thankful Liv is willing to at least go through one song with me and hopefully start to see why it has such appeal to people. And maybe if I take off the load a little bit, maybe she'll get to enjoy it more fully down the line. Well, and I'm so thankful that you want to take over an episode of my podcast in order to talk about it. And also I'll just say like,

you know, for the true honesty and also like joking honesty, which is that like, I'm really thrilled that you want to take this work off of my plate. Thank you. You're giving me an episode. But on top of that, you're giving me an episode because explicitly I need, I need to put off some of the work of this podcast right now so that I can write

my own retelling of the Odyssey. There's so many layers happening with today's Takeover episode. Oh, yes. Yeah. And like, as I said, Evergreen. So for all of the Christopher Nolan fans who are like, oh, my God, look at this man who found a thousand year old poem to turn into a movie. And we're all sitting here like, dude, it's been a wrap.

yeah yeah we won't go into christopher nolan's movie we will wait for that episode a year from now or so except to say that bat damon is possibly the worst casting in cinema history did you see okay sidebar sidebar oh god lupita niango is playing oh god you know who she's playing no i haven't seen it yet plight of nestra and i'm like

What the fuck is Clytemnestra doing here? Why is Clytemnestra in the Odyssey? Why? Why would also, though? Exactly.

I know where you're going because I went there too. You're going to give the like the woman with the deepest skin tone. Let's be perfectly frank about it because it's not only that she's one of the women of color in this movie, but she is the woman with the deepest skin tone and you're giving her the arguably... Angry woman role. Yeah, not just the, I mean, the like the angry woman, but not only that, but like

I mean, clearly they're not going to just stay true to the Odyssey because Clytemnestra is not in the Odyssey. Yeah. But the references to Clytemnestra in the Odyssey are...

terrible and they are like oh see and the thing the speculation i read earlier was that you know somebody was like she'll play cersei and zendaya will play calypso which was in itself also like what like equally problematic but like for a different reason yeah but oh my god it could have been fun if they made her helen though because like that would have upset a bunch of people because helen is in the odyssey have they

Well, so I was hoping that Zendaya was going to be Helen. I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure people have reported that she is going to be Athena. So I know, weird choices. The only one that makes sense to me is Tom Holland as Telemachus. Literally the only one that makes sense right now. Absolutely. And yet, that makes perfect sense. I think that that is the only good casting. But making him the son of Matt Damon, I think actually then makes that casting...

Weird. No, it works a little better, but like... I do think him as Selemicus works, but not with Matt Damon as Odysseus. We'll have more to say about that in the upcoming months, I'm sure, as it all comes out. But yes, the Trojan War is going to feature very prominently in the Odyssey. And apparently some of the other side stories going on, because weird choices happening. Have they read the Odyssey? Yeah. Yeah, so...

Anyway, Epic is also the Odyssey. Epic is the Odyssey. Epic is the Odyssey. And it's really interesting because the majority of the song focuses on the first 12 books of the Odyssey, which is the very adventuresome story.

fun part and the last saga the Ithaca saga is literally like the last 12 books of it practically so it's a kind of complete reversal of the movie return the return which was like almost wholly focused on the last 12 books yeah so it it's been fun to like compare the boat both of them oh okay sorry I got dark I got dark thinking about Nolan's Odyssey I know I'm sorry I shouldn't have brought it there but okay the listeners know how I feel

audit like od is it's the year of od apparently so like he's just having a time like it's great i mean honestly the the thing that i am holding on to with the tightest grip i can muster is that christopher nolan's absolute shit show is the reason i got a book deal to write a children's retelling of the odyssey and i am so fucking excited with that i could scream and i will i will not put the word fuck in the book just to be clear but like

They know what they got picking me. So here we are. I'm looking forward to it. Now, Christy, you have a question for me that I want to answer. So give it to me. What is my experience with Epic? Unless that was already, what is your experience with Epic? That was the question I thought. And like, I blanked if I'd asked you already, cause I did technically ask you already, but it wasn't recording. Well, what was it while I was recording? Yeah. I know. We'll pretend we did it right. Yeah. Well,

I mean, I think I've already I mean, the other thing is I've already hinted at this so well. But like so my experience with Epic is that I had not listened to literally any of it because, again, of the pathological demand avoidance. I literally I could not. And then and then I was scrolling TikTok.

scrolling TikTok and this audio came on. People have been using this audio, you know, for entirely the audio. All the videos I've seen of this audio has been not Greek myth related at all, which is how it came onto my like private TikTok where I don't follow Greek myth stuff because it's just my like for funsies account. And then the one I can remember was like the final where I was like, oh my God.

I was like, I'm never going to get rid of it now because it's just like now it's haunting me in this hilarious way. But Drew Afwalo, who is like just an awesome feminist to follow and use this audio. And I'm just like singing along to it. Everyone's just singing along to it. But I very, very quickly from like three words was like, oh, this is epic.

I've been like, it was a Trojan horse. Oh my God. The only reason I've listened to any of Epic the Musical at this point right now is because of a Trojan horse, which is that there's this, I guess there's this song and I, without, what I do love also is like, I could hear like literally five words and be like, oh, I know, not only do I know that this is Epic, but I know exactly the point in the Odyssey that this is referring to because it is epic.

Clearly Calypso singing to Odysseus when he's woken up on it, or rather he has woken up. I don't know how long he's been there, whatever. And she's like, who's Penelope? And then there's this big gap and he says, my wife. And anyway, people have been really having fun. She goes, anyways.

Yeah, it's great. It's very fun. But it's so funny to me to be like, this is the first time I have because I have sort of pointedly avoided it just for being stubborn. And so just it's utterly hilarious to me that the very first time I ever got to listen to it and I immediately like DM Christine was like, Oh my god, my streak has been ruined because of TikTok.

I know. I was like so excited. I was like, I'm polling everyone. I'm going to get a list of like which songs, the one song Liv is going to be exposed to. And then it was thwarted by TikTok. Of course. Just this like silly line that I saw like a good five people that I follow for completely non-work related reasons, like using this line and lip syncing to it. And it's just so funny. So funny. So thank you TikTok for ruining my streak.

But also it did make me feel like, okay, like I do love that. I was, it's, it's so clearly the Odyssey that I was like, I, I, I know every single thing about what's happening here. And I find that hilarious. So, but.

And to be fair, I think that is the true epic experience, actually. Like that is literally how it just blew up was the creator, Jay, was just so savvy with social media and just put it out there all the time, every step of the process. So like, I literally think everyone's exposure to Epic the Musical was not to go like on Spotify and be like, let's see if I can find an album about the Odyssey. It's literally just some random clip that showed up in their social media. And they're like, okay, cool.

That's a bop. What is that? Yeah. Yeah. No, and that's so fun. And what a great way of doing it. I mean,

I can tell that purely because of the way that people have interacted with me about it over the years, because people will still find it now and think it's brand new, which I love because it's like finally complete. And so it's got this like kind of new resurgence within people or just people are finding it now that it's finished or just, you know, the same people listening all the time or like it's finished. That's so great. But like, you know, people are still coming in all the time. Like, have you heard this new musical? Have you heard of Epic? Like I do enjoy and I think

I think you can listen to like the last four Q&A episodes I've done. And every time I've been like, I got this question. I'm going to give you the quick answer. And that's a disappointing answer, which is like, no, I've not listened to it, but I know about it. And it's great that it exists. Thank you. Yep. Yep. But like, yeah, it's, it's, it's, but it's been a really interesting way to like, just to watch it kind of grow from the outside, even without listening. Yeah.

Well, I guess that brings us to what the rest of the episode is going to be, right? So. Christy's taking it off my hand. I am. I am. I have an agenda and everything. Which is where she diverges from me and everyone.

every way. I'm taking over now. I'm actually taking over. And here's the game plan listeners. So we are going to make live listen to and react to the song that you all voted for as number one. And I will say it was very illuminating to see like the breakdown of like what songs were most popular and which ones like got no love. And surprisingly, a lot of Athena songs like never really got a vote, even though I think they're

They're like interesting songs. I think Warrior of the Mind was the one exception that got votes. But so it was interesting. My boy, Paula Femus also got no love. And I love Paula Femus' song. Wow. I mean, I like Paula Femus. So I agree with you.

I feel like they were also like trying to curate like what would be the best song that Liv would enjoy that she'd be hooked to go and listen to more. So I love my I understand it wasn't necessarily like a popularity vote. It was like a curation vote for like what's going to get Liv to listen to all of it, which is what you all really wanted, I think.

Yeah. I mean, the number of you that just said all of it. Yeah. Yeah. So, so we're going to listen to one and I'm going to provide some context for the song. So Liv, Liv, Liv obviously knows what's happening in the Odyssey, but I have a good idea. Yeah. It's Epic the Musical's

got some different things going on so we'll just kind of contextualize it and then um we'll listen to it we'll do a quick reaction and then we're going to shift gears and talk to some friends of both of our podcasts um to like delve really deep into it and i think you guys are going to be excited to hear like who's going to chat with me about it so i think that's the plan right yeah it's so exciting i love it so friends your number one pick for live to listen to what

was No Longer You, which comes right in the middle of the Underworld saga, and I think is an excellent choice. At the time that my podcast recorded, the Underground saga, I hadn't listened to as much. I was really into the Ithaca saga. It had just come out, and definitely, I think Underground is top-notch. Excellent choice, you guys. And this song is specifically sung by Tiresias the Seer. Oh!

Hmm. Okay, okay, I'm ready. I'm ready. Yeah. And this supposedly like makes up the end of the first act and it's kind of this transition of like, Odysseus has done a lot of things, nothing's going well, he's going to the seer to be like, how the fuck do I get home at this point? Yeah.

And yeah, so that's this song. And I'm going to go ahead and play. If you guys haven't heard it yet, you can pause here. Go take a listen. No longer you. And then, yeah, we'll chat about it here momentarily. So here you go, Liv.

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This is... See, this is why... This is why Christy is doing the rest of it. Because I just... I don't care about musicals. I feel like that's so... I feel like people are going to be so mad at me for that. It's not that I don't care about them. It's that I, like... Like, that was good. It was interesting. I don't... I think my attention span has trouble with musicals. Because I feel like I'm really focused. Unless I'm watching them. If I'm, like, watching a play, a musical in a theater, great. Love it. Here for it. But it is the...

And I know people will tell me like there's visuals you could watch. It's fine. Yeah. I can't, I can barely pay attention to documentaries because they are too slow for my freaky ADHD brain that just needs everything to be moving so fucking quickly. And so it's just one of those things. Like, I'm glad I listened to that. Thank you. I liked, I liked some of the foreshadowing. Yeah. I'm, it does like, it does make me have questions about the underworld. Yeah.

aspects mostly like do we so I'm just going to ask you about them because I don't want to listen to more yeah yeah like do the women come like do we have like a whole like what is the accuracy level in the underworld scene

So it's been a while since I read the book, but the previous song is called The Underworld. So before we get to Tiresias, there we go. We do have a little bit of his mom coming and singing about waiting for him and she passes away. And it's a pretty emotional moment in that song. And then the other one is...

is Polities also makes an appearance. And Polities is really funny in the animatics because they draw him with glasses. And he's just like a little nerdy boy. And he has a song called Open Arms. And he's like, he is this ideal version of like, hey, we need to

embrace the world around us we need to like not fight everything and so there's like two named um characters that are um followers of Odysseus and one is Polites and one is Eurylochus yeah and Eurylochus is kind of the other extreme of like hey everyone's out to get us and we got to be ruthless and if we want to get home and Odysseus up to this point is kind of trying to

weave those two in between but the thing is polities was killed by polyphemus so like he's really struggled to maintain that what we might think of as his humanity um in these adventures um because polities is lost so early in the musical and urelicus is constantly there until this final betrayal that happens um that's mentioned in the song and

This is also the song, and this is going to come into the title for the episode, where Odysseus has been struggling with this idea of, do you embrace monstrosity in order to cause less harm to the people you care about? And I will appreciate that Jay begins this by having the very first song is The Infant and the Horse in the very first saga, and he throws the Sion X off the wall. And ever since then, he'll keep going back to that decision, right? Yeah. Of...

it's interesting presented that like Zeus and the fates are basically telling him, you don't really have a choice. Like if you don't do it, then like someone's going to die and it's going to be you and your family for retribution. And so he makes that decision because he thinks it's for the greater good and he doesn't view himself as monstrous for having done so. And then he keeps meeting these different people who also make monstrous decisions supposedly for the greater good. And at the end of the day,

Is anyone really good for that? Yeah. And so, yeah. Okay. So, but what about the women in the underworld? His mom's the only one. I'm glad I'm not listening to this musical.

Sorry, that makes me so fucking angry. Do you remember the women who are in the Odyssey? In the Underworld? Again, it's been a while. I read the back half of the Odyssey for The Return. Great. Well, then I just need to scream it at you because I need you to be mad with me about this. The Underworld scene in the Odyssey, in Book 12 of the Odyssey, is entirely women, except for Tiresias. There is an entire...

Like, huge, beautiful section detailing all the women that Odysseus sees in the underworld. And it's all of these women wronged by men. It is inarguably one of the best representations of mythological women in the ancient sources. So the idea that he has, he put the mom and two dudes in the underworld actually makes me curious. Yes.

That's fair. That is totally fair. Because what I remember is Achilles and Agamemnon also make an appearance. So, like, those are moments I remember. Yeah. I mean, Agamemnon does. And he just, like, shits on his wife, which is super fun. And why we're afraid to have Lupita playing Clytemnestra, because that's literally the only references to Clytemnestra is just how she fucked up and killed Agamemnon. I... Hold on. Grab that book. We need it. Okay.

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So, okay. It's book 11, not 12, by the way. Okay. Yeah. Great. No, I'm not wrong. I'm not wrong. Okay, cool. Okay. This is me reading a bunch of just some of the Emily Wilson translation.

Okay, so it was with his mother. So as slash after he talks to his mother, it then says, okay, as we were talking, some women came sent by Persephone. And then it just goes into this big, long, big, long list of all of these women who come and who, okay, so they took, they took turns coming forward. This is a quote, and each told her history.

The first was well-born Tyro, child of Salmonius and wife of Cretheus, Aeolus' son. And then tells her story. And then, okay, and then... Okay, just a bunch more of like her story. And then, and also like everything she did. And then Antiope. And then Alcmene. And Megara. Epicasti. So Jocasta. Chloris.

and a bunch i'm trying to like pull out names because it's just this whole bit oh and then lida and if a medea and fedra comes up procris comes up ariadne uh mira climini erifili uh oh they were silent kept going arete

Keeps going. It's a lot of women left out. Yeah. Literally, it's just a list of women and their stories. And that's why I love that part.

in this book that's that's why the minute you said the underworld i was like oh great it's an incredibly beautiful representation of women's stories in ways that we don't get in 99.9 percent of the rest of the surviving sources yeah and this is why i don't listen though guys because otherwise i'll just do this to you well and to be fair that was like there was something we were critical about on two levels with the choices jay made and i think

in context of the entire concept album, they make sense with what choices he made. One was, of course, no, no modern adaptation ever wants to talk about the hanging of the servant women. Never. Slave women. Just to be, because I think it's important that we, they're not getting paid.

They are enslaved. Yes. Yeah. So that never, like, that wasn't brought up in the return. Like, no one wants to touch that. It wasn't to the return. That's wholly irredeemable. And, like, no one's going to be even remotely sympathetic to Odysseus and Telemachus if that happens. That's the point!

I'm putting it in my kid's book. I don't know how, but I'm doing it. That's why Astyanax, that's kind of like their, but he threw a baby off the wall at the beginning. That's bad, right? The other choice that they made is that he is wholly faithful to Penelope and both Calypso and Circe are the instigators of their seduction of him, but they fail to seduce him.

which comes out in the song God Games, which if you don't catch the fact that Odysseus actually resists them and doesn't sleep with them, then God Games is very confusing once you listen to it because there's basically this joke of like,

Athena is trying to convince all the gods that they should let Odysseus return home. And she goes to Hera and Athena is trying to like, oh, he's funny. He's really smart. And Hera's like, whatever. It's like, well, never once has she cheated on his wife. And then she goes, well, let him go then. And I'm like, wait, what? That is not even remotely Odysseus.

And our guest, Ren, pointed out that, like, you know, there's so much media that talks about the cheating husband all the time that sometimes it's refreshing to have a guy just be faithful to his wife. And that's kind of the driving force behind all of Odysseus' decisions. It's like he just wants to get back home to Penelope. So, like, it was very much a choice. Yeah. And it works for the musical. But it demonizes the other women. Yeah. Like, it's a choice that comes at the cost of women. Yeah.

Yep. I think a lot of your fans wanted, and some of them made the top and we'll maybe react to them in the future. But like a lot of the other songs, like look at Circe, look at, even though I don't know that made the top, but like he has a song for Scylla. He has a song for the Sirens and he has kind of a reflective song that comes from,

after the underworld called monster where Odysseus actually reflects on actually all of these things that I view as monstrous on the receiving end. If I put myself in their shoes, then like really they're just surviving. They're taking care of themselves. So I appreciate that there's a little bit of that, but yeah, at the end of the day, it's a story centered on Odysseus and trying to keep him human enough that we root for him to get back to Penelope. Yeah.

This episode is turning into something a little different and we're going to figure out how we're releasing it in that way because I'm glad we did this. But like I I I that bums me out like it bums me out so hard. And I think I'd heard like a little inklings of the treatment of women in epic. And that's also why I like I really don't ever want to come on here and complain about something that people love.

And so I that's the honestly, I think this is a great example of like, why I choose to keep my mouth shut on things like this on things that people love in this way. And that I recognize as being really beneficial to mythology broadly and to reception, like, it's great. And I don't want to just come on and shit on it, which is why I, I do try to avoid doing that. And then

But to hear that, like, so, I mean, it brings up a wider issue that I have with, like, let's focus even on just the Odyssey because I think, I mean, clearly it's really in the zeitgeist. I'm writing a book. Christopher Nolan's doing a shitty movie. Like, it's in, it's out here right now. And clearly Epic is, like, taking over everything. And so, like, I think that we today...

have this i mean what we definitely do have this bizarre thing in our heads where in order for us to like in order for somebody to create like a mass piece of art like this like the hero quote unquote hero has to be like one he has to be what we refer to as a hero in modern in our modern language and modern culture not necessarily what made a hero in the ancient greek world and

And we, like, fundamentally lost this distinction in a way that I think has really harmed how we see these things. But also how we see the complexity of humanity and also, like, the weight of the patriarchy. Like, if we...

retell stories of the Odyssey where Odysseus only does good, we are fundamentally misunderstanding the human story that it's telling and the like cultural memory that it exists as. Like the Odyssey is not a story some guy wrote down from start to finish to like tell a fun story. Like it's literally not that. And if we,

conceptualize it as this thing where this nice man just wanted to go home to his wife after a war. And like, this is all the trouble he had and all the things he went through and all the women who tried to seduce him. Like not only are we doing a disservice to the Homeric tradition, to oral storytelling, to ancient Greece, but also to our modern society.

culture, because we are continuing to amplify this idea that men in these stories were meant to be good and valiant and only do good things and have good morals and all of these things that like

put this like sheen on something that is otherwise like interesting because like the odyssey is interesting because it is looking at humanity and all of its flaws and all of its like the whole the odyssey is good because you don't know what to do with odysseus because i spent ages loving him

And then read it more and was like, oh, he's problematic as shit. I still love him. He's still my main man. He's terrible. Yeah. And I love him and I love the Odyssey because...

Because he's also terrible. Because it has all these terrible things. But these things are real. And like, but I also personally, I love the Odyssey because it has women. Because it has strong women who aren't wronged and who aren't, well, they are wrong, but like who aren't all made to be these like, like 99% of surviving women.

myth sources, women are...

Side characters, their accessories, they are possessions to be owned and played with, right? Traded, given away, all of these things. Like they're not people, they're things. And I think the Odyssey in comparison to almost everything else makes them people. The Odyssey has women who are people and who are like flawed and interesting, but realistic. And I'm going to add to that.

like i don't think it's problematic that you come in here and complicate media like this yeah no me neither i just don't want to like i think it's what it's good as a conversation this is this is the format i need it for yeah because it's fair and reasonable like yeah yeah that's so i'm so bummed it and i think you know maybe context more of the song might change perception slightly but i think you've

You know, you've highlighted critiques that are really important to consider. And I think your audience, that's why they want your voice on it, is because they know they enjoy it, but they might feel something icky about it. Like when I watch Gladiator 2 and I watch the end, it's like there is something so...

icky about this ending and i had to like think and talk about it with people to really unpack what that was yeah and to feel justified in that feeling and i think women especially you know the two men i talked to so it's like i just you know if you shut off your archaeology historian mind then it's just a good movie and i'm like even if i shut off the historical mind it's

I hate this movie. I hate what it's saying. I hate how it, it makes me feel erased from history. Yeah. And I, you know, you can only really do that through talking it out with other people and getting the perspectives. And I think that's why listeners want you. You can say, I still enjoy this. I, I don't like Athena as a character. I like some of the songs. I like the way he explored the relationship between Odysseus and Athena as something different, but that doesn't change my perception of who I think of as Athena and

in the historical context of when the Greek myths were produced. Like, it doesn't change that. It's just a new way to look at her in a modern context. Yeah. Well, and I think, and I'm going to turn this a little into something we were talking about earlier off the microphone, but, like, what you just said about the people you watched or talked about it with being like, oh, you know, if you just shut off these parts of your brain, like, this reminds me of why

Why I am forcing the memory collective to exist, which is that there is only a really certain type of person that exists.

is able to look past certain like things like that and and it comes with this level of privilege that I think we don't we don't see it as privilege we like the number of white male historians and even like people who do like really accessible work but who like pride themselves on being on like talking about the ancient world apolitically or

Or like, and this is the line that people come to me with all the damn time and I will always deny its validity, is that like going to the ancient world without putting our modern moralities on it.

And I think that this, that comes from this place of privilege that to me screams of like, just like the erasure, the erasure of everything, because history is political. All of these works are political. Like every, every,

single text that we have today from the ancient world is political, no matter what was in the text, because the fact that it survives is the result of countless political decisions that were made by men.

Over 2000 plus years. And so if we there is only this bizarre little group of people who are so taken in by the patriarchy that they can say that, like you, we can just look at this thing without modern morality, without politics, because those people see themselves in it now.

And the rest of us do not see ourselves in it now. And so we are not able to do that. And nor should we, because we existed back then, but they didn't keep us.

And that's not that's a political decision. That's a moral decision. Like modern morality. I mean, when there are things that are modern morality, absolutely. But most of what gets termed modern morality is human morality. It is objective right and wrong when it comes to egalitarianism, when it comes to generally humans being equal. It's not modern morality. It's equality. Yep.

And it, all of those things existed back then because humans existed back then. They just don't survive for us because they were left out. Yes.

Yeah. Anyway, yeah, I didn't mean it. That's not what I mean by this work. But I think that it is a symptom of all of that. Like, I don't think that the creator did any of that on intentionally. And I don't think that he is inherently part of the problem. But he is a symptom of the wider problem, which is that we are taught all of this stuff. We are taught everything from

history and history of the ancient world as if it is just a thing that exists in exactly this way and always has and that is pointedly untrue and lacks all context and like all of this additional stuff that went into why we have the history that we have today and anyway that's that's why i found it

time to do but thankfully I have Christy to help me and Michaela and other people but like I just it makes me so sad I guess it makes me so sad that this is the way that the Odyssey keeps being read over and over and over again and I'm counting Christopher Nolan in there I'm counting like to me this is every kind of piece of reception that I've ever found with the Odyssey and

is it just makes me sad because I think that one, it like takes away from the actual ancient texts that we have and like all of the value that it holds inherently and all of the value that it's, that the context holds. And like, it just like,

I don't know. It just like ignores everything that is so interesting, which is that like Odysseus is a human guy. He's a piece of shit sometimes. He's a good guy sometimes. And isn't that more interesting than just this guy who desperately wants to get home to his wife? And like he absolutely stayed faithful to her the whole time, despite all of the evidence in the Odyssey that he fucked everyone. Like, come on.

Yeah. I, yeah, I think this is something that I got, I got to explore in my, my paper on the last 25 years of gladiators on screen and someone had made a point I should be able, but like when media is produced at such a high level of expense, you try to stay very ideologically general. So as not to off any particular group. And I think, I think that's,

what makes these so popular and accessible. And I think it's,

The memory collective. It's the work that we do to show people, hey, it's a lot more complicated than that. And these stories in these tallies are important because they say something about who we are today. And we should impact that and we should question that. And there's nothing wrong with that. That doesn't mean we are, you know, throwing shade at the creator or anything like that, because as you said, it's speaking to Jay as a person, our culture in the moment, and

what we want to see out of the future. Like the one thing I really liked and thought was interesting was that at the final song, the final song that Athena and Odysseus have a conversation in Athena is embracing this idea of like, maybe we should have a kinder world. Maybe we should try to do that. And Odysseus comes out and says, I'm too changed. And my life is too short at this point. I can't do that. But you as an immortal being can. And I thought that was such an interesting take from how we think about the

you know, immortality as like creating stasis and like someone who doesn't have the ability to see that change in the world and giving it to Athena, who like, again, not my favorite goddess for many other reasons, but like, I thought that was an interesting take. Yeah. Yeah. I thought that was an interesting take. And I like that at the end. It's like, you know, this is the story. This is how it played out. If we want a kinder world, we have to work at it.

Not just within our lifetimes, but over and over and over again. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I just think like, I just am perpetually disappointed that because I just think that Odyssey, I'm literally gonna do it myself. It's fine. But like, I just think the Odyssey is so ripe for a retelling that is both

like accessible and enjoyable, but also that doesn't sanitize a story that has existed for as long as it has and doesn't need to be sanitized because the truth, like the story is the story and it says something about humanity. And if we are always trying to sanitize,

These types of stories throughout the course of human history, like if we're always trying to sanitize stories of terrible men, we're literally never going to get anywhere as a society ever. Yeah.

And this is why we needed the humanities and or people that are actually dedicated to what the humanities stand for. Damn right. Damn right. Anyway, follow the memory collective. Collective mem.com. Yeah. I don't know what I'm doing. No. And I guess at this point, do I say the title now? So to the listeners, the goal of this

It was an introduction. It's 54 minutes. It was totally an introduction. It was an introduction. And I said, it'll be like 15 because I don't know myself, I guess. I'm entirely lacking in self-awareness. We should know better between us, honestly. Truly. The listeners are like, you guys just recorded four hours on medicine and you very clearly went double the time then. What were you thinking? Yeah.

But anyway, this will be the introductory episode. And then I think what I'll do is air this on a Tuesday. And on Friday will be Christy's real takeover, which is a conversation about Epic the Musical with some really exciting guests who both went on my show and who are both great guys. See, we'll have men. It's fine. I don't hate them all. At this point, I hate most of them.

So, but that's kind of what, what happened with this recording to all of you. So stay tuned though. Just give us a few more days and then you'll get to the whole thing because we can't be brief, but also I think this is so valuable and I'm glad we had this whole discussion. So you guys are getting all of it. Do you have anything else you want to say in the end of this one? I don't think so. I think I like already promoted movies. We dig in it. So I'm going to get that for now. Okay. Yeah.

Thank you all so much for listening to this thing that turned into a totally other thing. Stay tuned for more. Obviously, Christy is one of the hosts of Movies We Dig, which is part of the Memory Collective podcast network. And we are trying to put together as much as humanly possible. I don't know. Maybe we should ask for volunteers. Let's see. I'll see if anyone replies to that random statement I just made. Thank you all so much, though. Let's talk about Myths Baby is written and produced by me, Liv Albert, except in this case where Christy did all of the work.

Michaela Panguish is the Hermes to my Olympians, my incredible producer. Select Music by Luke Chaos. The podcast is part of the Memory Collective Podcast Network. God damn it. Learn more at collectivemem.com.

And sign up for the newsletter, MissBaby.com slash newsletter, where you can also learn more. And we have ad free at Patreon.com slash Miss Baby. And now I'm going to stop. I am Liv. And I love this shit, even when it's not what I want it to be. Do you want to add in anything? Because you can, if you wanted to say that you're, I just always say bye. That works too?

This podcast is brought to you by Sony Pictures Classics, presenting On Swift Horses, starring Daisy Edgar-Jones, Jacob Elordi, Will Poulter, Diego Calva, and Sasha Kaye. Muriel and her husband Lee are beginning a bright new life in California when he returns from the Korean War.

But their newfound stability is upended by the arrival of Lee's charismatic brother Julius, a wayward gambler with a secret past. A dangerous love triangle quickly forms. When Julius takes off in search of the young card cheat he's fallen for, Muriel's longing for something more propels her into a secret life of her own, gambling on racehorses and exploring a love she never dreamed possible.

Everyone has a reason to change. Growing old, heartbreak, a fresh start.

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