International Women's Day with Eluned Morgan, the first woman to lead Wales
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And I think we've got to be really, really vigilant. It really concerns me, the objectification of women, particularly amongst young lads. That is really worrying. The accessibility to pornography, all of those things help to shape people's views on women. And that's, we're going backwards there.

Hello and welcome back for another season of A Podcast of One's Own. I'm thrilled to be returning for a seventh season. I can't quite believe we've come that far. We have an incredible array of guests planned for this year and we are beginning with someone who led me back to my birth country of Wales.

Eluned Morgan is the first ever female First Minister of Wales. It's kind of like being a Premier in Australian terminology. She's been in the job since August last year. It was such a pleasure to sit down with her in her office in the Welsh Parliament in Cardiff

ahead of International Women's Day and to speak about her upbringing which undoubtedly shaped the person and politician that she is today, her career, her faith, building resilience as a woman in the public eye and her interests away from politics. I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did.

Alina, thank you so much for joining me on a podcast of one's own. And it's great to be here in Cardiff with you. I'm back in Wales. Diolch yn fawr and welcome home. We still consider you to be a little bit Welsh at least. Well, I consider myself to be a little bit Welsh too. And I do get to visit here quite frequently, which is fantastic.

For someone who's never been, though, how would you describe Wales? Well, Wales is a country on the west of the United Kingdom. We've got a population of about 3.2 million people. We are passionate about sports, a bit like Australia. We're big on singing and music. We have our own language. About 20% of the population speak Welsh.

And we used to be quite an industrialized country, which was run on coal mines. We powered the Industrial Revolution. Of course, all of that has fallen away. And today we're much more kind of high tech. A little, if you look at your mobile phone, there's a little piece here.

of Wales in your mobile phone, in almost every mobile phone in the world. And that's made just right here in Wales. So we're very much moving into the next generation, the new century.

My father was from a coal mining village, a coal mining family, and so the transition from his generation to now is incredible. And, of course, wonderful tourism offerings. If you want food, walking, spectacular scenery, the Hay Book Festival, it's all here. It really is, and we've got three national parks, and they are quite glorious. And we do have quite a significant tourism industry here. And...

You know, it is a really vibrant place and a fun place to be as well. A very fun place. Now, you are First Minister. Can you describe the political system here? Australians are used to having a Prime Minister, the job I got to do. And then if you live in a state, you've got a Premier. If you live in a territory, you've got a Chief Minister. But we don't call anybody First Minister. So can you describe that for us?

So about 25 years ago, devolution occurred. We voted for it here by an absolutely tiny, tiny margin. But it was established and today it's a very much a natural part of what Wales is and has driven a kind of new lease of life for the nation and created a new identity, really.

What's important is to recognise that actually there are a whole load of areas for which the Welsh government is responsible. So the health service, education, aspects of the economy, transport. So there's lots and lots of areas where we're responsible. And as First Minister, I am responsible for leading the government and for the equivalent, I would think, to your government.

your premiers in your areas. So the First Minister, obviously there are four parts to the United Kingdom and this is one of the parts. And it's a Labor government and the Labor Party has been the predominant political party in Wales. You've been leading Wales as First Minister for about six months now.

Is it what you thought it was going to be? What's the unexpected thing that you've run into? Well...

We have been a very dominant political force for a very long time. In fact, we're the most successful political party in the world. So it's been 102 years where we've been winning majorities. And we have been in power in some form or another in a leadership position since the establishment of the Senate, of the Assembly. So since I was appointed and elected...

by the party, effectively, and by my colleagues here in the Senedd last August. It has been a roller coaster. It's obviously a very unsettling time for the planet.

And obviously all of that is feeding through to the communities. So you're having to kind of watch the international impacts and how that is influencing what happens at home. But obviously we have domestic challenges as well. We're in charge of the health service here, for example. And, you know, there are a lot of people who need support. And as the former health minister, particularly during the tail end of the pandemic, you know, it was really useful to have that kind of,

background because more than 50% of our budget goes on health. So lots to do. I want to talk now about the journey to get here and I want to start with your what seems to be very political upbringing. Your dad Bob was a vicar who led the South Glamorgan Council.

Your mother, Elaine, was a counsellor too. And you've spoken about growing up in Europe's largest council housing estate and how the vicarage door was always open. So you've told stories about opening the door at 3am to a young man with severe mental health problems. Now, that's a pretty unusual family background. Can you talk to me about that, what it was like and how it shaped your views? Yeah.

was a very unique upbringing and it was raw and it was just enlightening just to be in the middle of a community that needed a lot of support and a lot of help and

I think my dad was the only kind of professional person as a vicar who actually lived on the estate. So the teachers would come in during the day, but they'd all go home in the evening. And the church was what largely what kind of drove initiatives in the area. And it all happened in and around our house.

And we all had to muck in as the kids in the family. And it was just very, very natural. And we all learnt how to, you know, how to deal with people of all different types and how to be tolerant and also...

to recognise that there are people who are just as able as you, just as clever as you and who are just not getting the opportunities that you're having. And that was certainly one of the things that motivated me to get into politics.

From a background like that, it seems to me there's probably two pathways. Either the background gives you a passion for politics and change, which is obviously what has happened to you, or you go, wow, that was my childhood and I want my adulthood to be something completely different.

Did you think about it like that? Did you think, you know, I've got choices, what pathway is there for me? Was there ever a time where you thought, I really want to get away from this sense of community service, labour values and just experience what...

different life is like? I guess I didn't know what any different life might look like. That was the only life I knew. And so that commitment to public service, I think, was just ingrained right from the beginning. And it wasn't something that I wanted to kick against. It was something that felt very natural. And that's driven me throughout my career. And it's been, I think, a

Being able to have that as your background, apparently there's a lot of children of priests, of vicars, they have that service, they've seen that public service in their parents and a lot of them go into politics. Yeah, that's true. I've interviewed Theresa May and that is her story, though obviously on the other side of politics. Yeah.

Growing up on that council housing estate, how did you think about gender roles? Did you look around the world you lived in and say, "Men and women have different roles, different places. There are things that I can't do because I'm a girl"? I think there were... It was a different age, it was a different time, and I think you'd tolerate things in those days that certainly I wouldn't tolerate today.

But actually, what was interesting is that the people who held that community together were all the women. So the strong people within that community were the women. So I had some really good role models to look up to who were good working class women who were driving changes, pulling the community together, running the housing associations. And it was generally the women. But when it came to the kind of formal structures...

then it was a very different issue. And certainly things like that we used to meet as a Labour Party in our church hall and, you know, there weren't many women in the party. So, you know, I didn't know what it was like to be in a group where there were women in politics. They just weren't many there.

And how have you seen that change in the decades since? You were, I think, born in 1967, so obviously your formative years were in the 70s and early 1980s. If you look at the circumstances of women in those party meetings back then and contrast it to today, what's different?

Well, I think it's like light and day. I think there's a massive difference. I think it's really important that we recognise that there's been a journey. But I was elected at the age of 27. You know, I was the fifth woman in the history of Wales to be elected. So, look, the world has changed a lot. But at the time, it was a bit of a political earthquake and quite...

And really difficult, really difficult, I think, because I had the sense that I didn't want to let women down. And...

I remember, you know, I had a knot in my stomach for two years. I worked so hard, and I think that's the thing, is I just thought, I can't fail at this, because it's not really about me. It's about women. It's about young women. I'm doing this not just for me, but for them. I got this sense that people were willing for me to fail. I don't know if that was true, but I just felt that I could not fail.

We're sitting here recording this podcast with a copy of the book Women and Leadership, which I co-authored with Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala on the table between us because I've signed it for your daughter. And the women leaders that we interviewed for that book, that is such a common thing that they said that in their first opportunity, but even what they're doing today, they have that sense that

if they fail, that will be characterised as a failure for women. And so this extra burden on shoulders. And we think a lot at the Global Institute for Women's Leadership, what you've said about women's leadership on your council estate, that it was the women that held the place together, but not necessarily having the formal positions.

And so we spend a lot of time kind of interrogating and thinking about the question, what do we mean by leadership anyway? Is it always about the formal title? So plenty to think about there. When you were elected at 27, you were elected into the European Parliament, which is when Britain was in the European Union and sent members to the European Parliament.

You stood down from that after serving for a period of time, and then you were granted a peerage in 2011. So that means you became a member of the House of Lords with a formal Baroness title, and you were Shadow Minister for Wales. Now, when people think about the House of Lords,

I think a lot of oldie worldie characterisation would come into people's minds, you know, old buildings, scones for afternoon tea poured in the evenings. But it really is a working house with lots to do. How did you find it?

Well, I didn't know quite what I was letting myself in for, if I'm honest. I had never been there before I accepted my role. But what it gives you is a platform to continue with your political work.

And I think that was quite important to me. So I deliberately left politics after the European Parliament. I just wanted to try something different. In fact, I went into the private sector just because I wanted to see how does that work? You know, what are we doing right? What are we doing wrong? What can we learn from that? And then, yeah, I was invited to the Lords. So it was quite, it was and is a remarkable place. Listen, there are issues with it and...

you know, I think it's a strange house to have in a

modern democracy but there's no question of the brilliance of some of the people who are in there and the seriousness with which they took their roles and the interrogation of laws with perhaps more objectivity without quite the kind of pressure politically to come down on one side or another so it's a phenomenal place and

I think generally, definitely makes laws better in this country. I think there's probably a question about, you know, how justifiable it is today in the 21st century. But I think just to go back to when I was initially elected, one of the interesting things was when I first went through the selection process.

And I remember I was 27. I just thought, OK, I'm going to give it a go and didn't think I particularly had a good chance. And the first time I went in, I dressed up like my mother because I just thought I'm 27. They're all going to believe I'm way too young. And I didn't get through the first selection. And I asked why. And they said, look, you were fine, but you're young and you'll have your chance again.

And I thought, right, I can't hide the fact that I'm young. So the next meeting I went to, I confronted the audience. And I think that was quite an important moment because this is a Labour Party that doesn't believe in discrimination. So I confronted them and said, you can judge me on anything you want today, but if you judge me,

on the fact that I'm a woman or that I'm young. You shouldn't be sitting in this room. That doesn't comply with our values. And I think that kind of jolted people a little bit and that kind of bravery. So sometimes you just have to take it to them and put a mirror in front of them. Yeah, and front it out. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

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You could have stayed for the rest of your life in the House of Lords. I mean, that's kind of what it's for, lifetime appointments that take people a little bit beyond politics but use their skills for government and for oversighting legislation.

But you took what I think would have been viewed as quite an unusual decision, which is to step aside from the House of Lords and then contest to come into the Welsh Parliament, which ultimately has enabled you to become First Minister. You did that in 2016. Why make that choice? You could have been serving in the House of Lords, doing things that would have mattered for Wales.

Look, I was always passionate about devolution and, you know, fought really hard to establish this place. So I guess I always had a yearning to try and come in. And in fact, I contested a very marginal seat. But it was always something that I guess I dreamt of coming in here. But you can't plan a life in politics, as you know. You know, some of it is about being in the right place at the right time.

And you've got to get on with your life. So I just thought, look, I'll take the opportunity. I'll take the risk. I didn't have anything to lose to try and come in here. And I'm really pleased that I was able to because I just felt right. I'm bringing I'm coming here now with a wealth of political experience from lots of different institutions. And that's something I can contribute back to the country and

And, you know, I hope that it's helped a little bit along the way. You come in in 2016 and then you find yourself being health minister during COVID. I mean, right around the world, in Australia, particularly in the state of Victoria, people experience lockdowns and all the dislocation and fear. I mean, just straight out fear that came with COVID.

I mean, what was that experience like for you as Health Minister, trying to guide a community that would have been incredibly anxious about what was going to happen next?

Well, I think I wasn't the health minister at the beginning of the pandemic. So I think that would have been a much more scary time because you really didn't know what you were confronting then. But, you know, I was there later on for the Delta wave and the Omicron wave, which were actually, you know, there were more COVID cases as a result of those than the first wave. So it was a really trying time. It was also a time...

where actually people really bonded, people came together, people knew that we were on effectively a kind of war footing in terms of how do you deal with this. And we dealt with it, I think, slightly differently from the way they were dealing with it in England, so we were far more cautious here. And the public really responded to that. So it was...

a very testing time, a very pressurised time. And I think if I hadn't had that kind of gruelling time at the age of 27, where I hadn't experienced stress like that ever before, it meant that I could get through anything like that. But it was, it was very difficult. And of course, we've now having the COVID inquiry, and we're all reliving what we went through. And it was a

It was a very difficult and trying time. And not for us so much as the people on the front line who were dealing with this. The way you've answered that question, sort of looking back to how it was when you were 27 and how hard that was, and, you know, the fact that you'd been through a hard experience so young...

built your coping skills. This is something that I talk to women about a lot. You know, a lot of women ask me, you know, how did you get through the days of being prime minister, particularly when there were so many gendered attacks?

You know, I'm always very keen to describe, well, you don't sort of, you know, pop from being in your lounge room with no-one knowing who you are into the job as Prime Minister. You go through all of these stages in between and all of those stages build your resilience. And so by the time you're more exposed, more publicly known, you know, successes and failures are really on the front of the stage, not the back of the stage. You've had more resilience built.

Is that how you've experienced it? Definitely. I think building that resilience at a very young age, you know, it was tough. It was tougher than anything I've ever done. You know, getting in elected at 27 years old and having that kind of exposure at that really young age and that, you know, this is way before Blair came into power. You know, there were very few women, particularly of my age, around on the political scene. So that pressure was incredibly intense. But...

I think building resilience is something that all politicians have to do with it, but women in particular, particularly in aid of social media. So that has changed the dial entirely. And certainly, you know, I spent 15 years in the European Parliament, but there was no social media at the time. So that's a very different episode to the one that we're having to deal with today. And

Look, there's undoubtedly massive misogyny on social media that is being put up on a daily basis. Generally, I don't look at it. I just don't look at it because...

We're all resilient, but we're all human as well. And you have to live. And if everything you do is being questioned and second-guessed, that's a really tough position. And as you know, if you're a leader, you have to make a call. You have to make a decision. And not just one. You're making hundreds, hundreds and hundreds a week.

So I'm very clear. I post things on social media, but I don't read it. That is great advice and certainly advice I lived by when I was Prime Minister. You don't need to be looking down at death threats and rape threats and God knows what. You can push that aside and get on with the job. But that it is so toxic for women is something we've got to keep campaigning on because the social media companies can do better than that and should be doing better than that.

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Across all of this time, European Parliament, House of Lords, what you're doing now, you have a family. You're married and had a family. How did you manage to put all of that together? Because, you know, you would have been here in Wales and then in Brussels for the European Parliament, here in Wales, in London, in Westminster for the House of Lords. How did it all work? Well, it's a lot of juggling, but...

Listen, women juggle all the time in all walks of life. So it was a little bit more complex because I was travelling to Brussels on a weekly basis for about three days a week. So...

my husband was heroic, but he had a full-time job as a GP. And so we had a lot of childcare support and we've got a really big extended family and all of that helps. So, you know, when I wasn't around, there was a lot of love around for the children. That extended family certainly helped along the way. And

It was quite interesting. I remember somebody gave me some advice when I went in and said, look, when your children are really young, they'll go to anyone. Yeah. They'll go to anyone. So I heeded that advice. I had my babies when I was still serving in the European Parliament and I stopped when they were about seven and nine years old.

So I was there. I was back home, at least for a while. I had quite a key time then. So you juggled it all.

You grew up in a religious household with your father being a vicar, your husband, as you just mentioned, a GP, but also an Anglican priest. And you've been very open about your Christian faith. Can you talk to me about how you see that intersection with politics and political values? I mean, a lot of

women, I think, feminist women, would look at religion and politics and they would see a certain kind of religious faith distorting politics in a way that is anti-women. If we look, for example, at the debates around reproductive rights in the US, obviously yours is a very different kind of Christianity, but how do you see those two things coming together?

Look, I think generally for me, it's about what are the values that are driving you? And, you know, the values that I see in Christianity are one of love your neighbor. You know, that's probably the most fundamental thing. And from that...

You know, if you take that as your basis, then the other thing should follow because, you know, the women around you are your neighbors. Actually, the neighbors, your neighbors are throughout the world as well. So I'm really clear about that being a kind of the key cornerstone on which in terms of my faith. Yeah.

Look, there's so much politics. There's far more politics in the church than there is in politics. Far more. So, you know, I don't generally get into the detail of theological debate or, you know, there are, it's a very broad church in the same way as the Labour Party is a very broad church and there are bits of it that you like and there's bits of it you really don't like. But, you know, you remain with the family, don't you? And that's certainly where I am. Mm-hmm.

One passion across your life has been Welsh identity and Welsh speaking. I understand that you did all of your schooling in Welsh and in fact the school's motto, and I'm not going to try and say it in Welsh, was something like 'a country's crown is her mother language'.

My parents were of that generation. My mother growing up in Barry, my father growing up in a coal mining village, Coombe Graak, they were of that generation where speaking Welsh was actively discouraged. So as a result, other than the occasional swear word from my father when my sister and I were misbehaving, there was no Welsh in our household.

The Welsh language, what does it mean to you and what does it mean to the Welsh community today? Well, I think, again, that's a journey that we've been on as a nation. You're quite right. There was a generation before ours where it was seen as, you know, if you want to get on, you need to actually tone down your use of the Welsh language. And it was maybe not actively discouraged, but certainly not encouraged.

So there is a whole generation of people like your parents who were lost. What we've done is that there's been a huge shift over the past 40 years. I went to a Welsh language school. I was brought up in a very...

anglicised part of the capital city in this council housing estate. You know, there were 30,000 people living on the estate and I think two families who spoke Welsh. So, you know, really it was simply because my mum was from West Wales and she wanted us to speak the language and knew we wouldn't hold it in that community with just her speaking it. So we went to a Welsh language school and what was fascinating is...

Going to that school when I was about five, six years old, we used to get a bus to school and parents used to lie in the streets saying,

from the community because they didn't want a Welsh language school in their area and they used to throw stones at the bus, at little six-year-olds on the bus. I mean, this is quite, quite remarkable. And today, you know, that was one Welsh language school and today there are about 20 Welsh language schools in the city. So the growth has been quite, quite remarkable and there's a real difference, I think, in terms of enthusiasm towards the language. We've got an ambition to get to a million speakers by 2050 and

And, you know, we've got about six, seven hundred thousand now. So we're on a journey and we're trying to make sure that people get a sense that it belongs to everyone, that everyone can have a go.

I think you should have a go. Why don't we try Diolch? Diolch. Diolch. That means thank you. Right, OK, I'm going to remember that. Diolch. That's hard to imagine, that kind of anger that would have people throwing stones at a bus carrying six-year-olds. That's incredible. But it was obviously there. Now, we're coming up to International Women's Day.

What does that mean for you, International Women's Day? Look, for me, I never quite understood it, if I'm honest, because every day for me is a women's day. But I think it is important to...

Just make sure that we get everybody else to reflect on what it means to be a woman, not just here, but internationally. And I think that international solidarity is really important. You know, we've made some strides in our communities. You know, more than half my cabinet are women. You know, we've done really well here. And my God, it was a battle to establish this place, you know,

When we first set up the Senedd, we had battles, battles within the party to get equal numbers of men and women. And we were starting a whole new world here against the backdrop of a really, really bad record, a terrible record in terms of women representation. And because we were setting up a new establishment, we were able to kind of create a new method of

But my God, we had a battle. And it made a difference. That is what got us from being one of the worst countries in the world in terms of representation to one of the best overnight. And I think we were the first cabinet in the world to have more women than men. So, you know, that switch was quite a change. What's interesting, though, is that when we haven't used a mechanism to select people, even today...

it reverts back to selecting men. So, you know, on most occasions when we haven't had a mechanism. So, look, none of us want a mechanism. That's the truth of it. We don't want to have... But the evidence suggests that if you don't, it'll just default even today.

2025 is quite shocking. Yeah, there's certainly more to do. I think International Women's Day for me certainly means celebrating the achievements of the past and honouring the women who brought us to where we are today, but there's still so much more to do and

One thing definitely on the agenda for this International Women's Day is looking at the Trump administration and the rhetoric against diversity, equity and inclusion. You know, all of the nonsense things we've seen, if a helicopter and a plane crash, apparently that's about DEI. So lots to fight for on that front. No, I think that's right. And I think we can't be complacent here. There's a shift going on and there's an attempt at a shift.

And I think we've got to be really, really vigilant. It really concerns me, the objectification of women, particularly amongst young lads. That is really worrying. The accessibility to pornography, all of those things.

help to shape people's views on women. And we're going backwards there. That is absolutely not where we need to be. I've always felt that actually what's important is not just to celebrate women, but to recruit men to our cause, get men to take on the misogynists, for them to confront it and to speak up

But it's quite interesting, you know, the kind of Me Too movement that arose recently. And I just thought, actually, when I was in politics in the European Parliament, if I'd have spoken up then, you know, I definitely wouldn't have been able to have had the career that I had. I don't think that would have been possible. You know, that kind of, you know, men, some men, just...

using their position of power, not to impose, but just because there's a power relationship there. And I think, you know, people are more aware of that today and we just have to keep people's eye on that real challenge that is clearly still very prevalent. Yes, yes. And...

Often for one woman to call it out is too hard, but we can do it together. And the role of men, you know, when I wrote my memoirs and I've spoken since about my experiences in politics, I've often said what a difference it would have made if women

say 20 leading Australian men had signed an open letter which could have even said, you know, we don't politically support Julia Gillard, we're not intending to vote for her at the next election but we don't do our politics like this and highlighting the gendered bit. So the role of men is incredibly important.

But as much as there is to do, all of us need to switch off. When you get a rare night at home, is it reruns of Gavin and Stacey? What are you doing? Oh, yeah, I'm a massive fan of Gavin and Stacey. There's a Barry girl. I'm hoping you're a big fan as well. I'm a big fan. Excellent. Yeah, no. Well, I live in Pembrokeshire on the West Coast, which is at

absolutely beautiful area. So I do try and make sure every weekend I go for a walk, get some headspace and just spend a bit of time. But I also spend every weekend caring for my mother who has Alzheimer's. And I guess that's another thing is...

you know, that responsibility tends to fall on the women. So, you know, I have three brothers. One of them is living there and helping out a bit. But, you know, it means that I don't get a day off because of that caring role as well. And I guess it's those things that people... There's an expectation. You know, I want to do it. I want to do it for my mother, but it's...

It's a responsibility that, you know, some others don't feel. And, you know, it's always, you know, you're the one who has to remember all the birthdays. You're the one who has to, you know, it's all those kind of little bits and pieces. So, you know, once you do that, there's not a hell of a lot of time. I'm a big reader as well. I'm a member of a book club. So that's fun. We've been going for over 20 years now. Yeah.

Well, that's music to my ears on this podcast. We run a book club, so please look out for our book club episodes too. Now I'm going to conclude as I always conclude with a Virginia Woolf quote. The Global Institute for Women's Leadership at King's College London has been based in the Virginia Woolf building, so we honour Virginia Woolf.

Virginia Woolf said, we can best help you to prevent war, not by repeating your words and following your methods, but by finding new words and creating new methods. Do those words speak to you? Yeah, I think that's exactly what we need. We need to find a new language, we need to find a new mechanism. And I think...

I think we're doing that and we've got to translate those words then into actions that are meaningful to women. And that's what we're trying to do in government here, you know, to make sure we're focused on

Things like childcare and making sure that we are standing by and with women. So, you know, I've been very keen to introduce a women's health plan. You know, the amount of money that went into women's health research was lamentable, absolutely lamentable. And, you know, the default is, well, we can't shift things. You just think...

I'm sorry, but this has been going on forever. So the kind of research work that then translates into practice within our health service, you know, that's been a real passion for me to get into that space, to change things for women, to make sure that there's an understanding. And it's been great, actually. One of the things I've done since I became first minister, I've gone out on the streets, I listen to people, I just...

talk to people without any... just unfiltered. You know, I just walk on the streets and listen. And, you know, one of the things that people come up to me and talk about is women's health, for example. And I just think, I don't think they'd do that to a man. No. So it might never get onto the agenda in the way. So I do think...

that it's important that women have these leadership roles. And I do think also that there's hope for the future. And part of my hope is things like watching my daughter, who's utterly intolerant of any kind of gender bias, who's utterly intolerant of any discrimination, in a way that we had to put up with if you wanted to get on

you had to compromise. This next generation are not prepared to compromise and that gives me great hope.

Well, thank you for ending on a hopeful note. I 100% agree with that. And thank you for everything you're doing here in Wales and for women. And I know there's an election next year, so all power to your arm. I know how hard it is to fight election campaigns, so I'll be wishing you on. And thank you for joining me on a podcast of one's own, or should I be saying... Diolch. Diolch. Diolch. Thank you. Thank you.

A podcast of one's own is created by the Global Institute for Women's Leadership at the Australian National University, Canberra, with support from our sister institute at King's College, London. Earnings from the podcast go back into funding for the institute, which was founded by our host, Julia Gillard, and brings together rigorous research, practice and advocacy as a powerful force to advance gender equality and promote fair and equal access to leadership.

Research and production for this podcast is by Becca Shepherd, Alice Higgins and Alina Ecott, with editing by Liz Kean from Headline Productions.

If you have feedback or ideas, please email us at giwl.anu.edu.au. To stay up to date with the Institute's work, go to giwl.anu.edu.au and sign up to our updates or follow us on social media at Jewel ANU. You can also find a podcast of one's own on Instagram.

The team at A Podcast of One's Own acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respect to their elders, past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening today. Thanks for listening, and we hope you'll join us next time. Music

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